Right now, the best guess in Wisconsin is that Waukesha County steals another election for Republicans.
I’m not a conspiracy theorist when it comes to elections. I never bought that Diebold stole Ohio for Bush in 2004. In my own state, we have bipartisan election commissioners and I have close to 100% faith in the final totals.
But at a certain point, the coincidences add up, no? In every county but Waukesha County, at least 75% of precincts have reported (EDIT: in fact, about 90% have reported over all, La Crosse is the second fewest with 70% right now), but in Waukesha County, only 1 of 11 has reported. Waukesha County swung the Supreme Court election for Republicans with a post-election night recount.
Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.
Update. Looks like it’s over — further proof that we’re a right-center nation!
11:59 PM: A BIG chunk of Republican votes just came in from Waukesha County. Big pick up for Darling (R). That will put Darling into a clear lead and then it’s going to be down to remaining votes in Milwaukee.
Update. Waukesha is averaging over 1200 votes per precinct so far, no other county is over 1000.
Viva democracy!
Update. Democracy denied (via GOS):
Following is the statement of Democratic Party of Wisconsin Chair Mike Tate following evidence of election tampering in the 8th State Senate District race.
“The race to determine control of the Wisconsin Senate has fallen in the hands of the Waukesha County clerk, who has already distinguished herself as incompetent, if not worse. She is once more tampering with the results of a consequential election and in the next hours we will determine our next course of action. For now, Wisconsin should know that a dark cloud hangs over these important results.”
General Stuck
You know, it increases my paranoia, like looking in my mirror and seeing a police car
rob!
Nothing makes me think we live in a Banana Republic more than the fact that our system of voting is simply pathetic—slow, unreliable, and easily manipulated.
Add this to the list of things our country simply lacks the will to fix.
Anya
One would hope the Dems expected this, and they put some safeguards in place or they have team of lawyers breathing down their necks.
Ol' Dirty DougJ
It’s probably a done deal, Republicans win by 400 votes or so with 90% turn out in Waukesha County when their voters come in at 8 am tomorrow, six hours or so after they’re in everywhere else in the state.
Comrade Mary
So how does counting work in these state ballots?
I worked the Canadian federal election this spring and I know that I counted my paper ballots twice with the assistance of my poll clerk, several observers from the three parties represented were present for the duration, my central poll supervisor signed off, and I delivered that sealed ballot box and a metric fuckton of supporting documentation to the central office for my riding. I also went home with a carbon copy of the official vote count signed by me and two other officers.
I knew the results for several other polls within 15 minutes of finishing my count because the distributed processing went on everywhere at once, with nobody having to count more than 200-250 ballots per poll. My central poll supervisor called in my tallied results to the central office, and my poll results were reported to the media before I had even reached the central office on my bike.
Many dead trees and many, many eyes scrutinizing the results. There’s a lot to say for the old ways.
James Hare
Get it out there early. It’s not conspiracy-mongering now. It’s just setting the stage.
I really hope that lady ain’t gonna pull that shit again.
SIA
Un-fucking believable.
Spaghetti Lee
TPM says a big pile of Wauk votes just came in for Darling, but I’m not seeing any new numbers anywhere. Still a lot of Milwaukee precincts left.
And I share your views about coincidences adding up. It’s the same clerk fer God’s sake.
kdaug
TPM has Pasch(D) up 51-49 w/ 68% reporting
Comrade Mary
kdaug, that result has been up for a while. The chunk of Republican ballots postdates it.
Shirt
Where is the NRA when you need them… oops sorry, the Nuts, Racists and Assholes are all in the teaparty.
No, I damn them with a faint phrase.
WTF is the judtice department?
shortstop
This clerk held back the count and then “found” votes in an election or two even before she did it for Prosser, right? Is this the third or fourth time she’s done this?
AxelFoley
I thought Doug was gonna go with Wauk This Way.
Oh, well. If the Dems win that area he could still use it.
aisce
or…or, and i’m just throwing it out here, you could fucking wait 90 minutes for the actual data and make conclusions from that instead of paranoid speculation.
also, too, you could consider the possibility that real people apparently still vote republican for whatever reason.
Paul
Allegations of tampering, sitting on votes from Menominee Falls…
Spaghetti Lee
OK, so the “big chunk” ends up giving Darling a 52-48 lead with 12 Milwaukee precincts left. Still ain’t over.
shortstop
The Waukesha County Clerk posted the results on her site a few minutes ago.
Comrade Mary
aisce, yeah, it could be a valid result, but the county clerk’s habit of reporting very late, and/or “finding” more votes hours or days later, plus the smug announcement from the Republicans that it was in the bag while the Democrat still had a lead — to this (foreign) election worker, this looks very, very suspicious.
(So can anyone fill me in on the technicalities of the polling and counting process in WI?)
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@aisce: Is every sentence that comes out of your mouth set at 11, or do you just forget how to talk to other people just because you’re typing?
We’re just all loving the +4K for the Republican out of the same district that had trouble getting the vote out properly in the Supreme Court election. Nice swing for the Republican.
Spaghetti Lee
TPM sez Milwaukee County should have their remaining precincts in 5-10 minutes from now.
Comrade Mary
From TPM:
Paul
Listening to WPR:
http://asx.abacast.com/wpr-ideas-48.asx
EvolutionaryDesign
I don’t want to live on this planet anymore.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Comrade Mary: It would almost be similar to what you described, except let me throw in one unique rule, or at least I think it’s unique: Each state has sole jurisdiction over voting in its state, unless it’s bad enough to trigger something in the Voting Rights Act, which mostly pertains to the Southern states that were involved in segregation. Each precinct counts its votes, and sends the totals up to various levels until all of the numbers are totaled.
Mnemosyne
Uh, DougJ, there are still 12 unreported precincts in Milwaukee County.
I’m starting to suspect you’re one of those people who leaves after the 7th inning stretch so you can beat the traffic.
fasteddie9318
@Comrade Mary:
It’s fairly straightforward. The rest of the state outside Waukesha counts their votes, Chuck Koch calls this Nickolaus woman and lets her know what kind of results they need, and she enters the appropriate information into the computer.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@EvolutionaryDesign: Why? Democrats just won at least two seats from Republicans in heavy Republican districts. Remember, these guys won in 2008, when the Democrats were winning a lot of seats. We have a lot of fighting to do, but the people of Wisconsin have showed us how to get started.
Spaghetti Lee
I don’t want to live on this planet anymore.
Good God almighty, can we at least wait til it’s called one way or the other?
shortstop
@Spaghetti Lee: And even then, can we can the emo bullshit?
aisce
@ belafon
help, help, i’m being oppressed by the vast right wing conspiracy! this conspiracy! it’s just so oppressive!
part of following politics is understanding that losses happen and you just have to accept it, learn from it (or maybe not, who knows), and move on.
and actually, this loss that has you all so very troubled hasn’t officially happened yet, so there’s that. just saying.
Spaghetti Lee
Mike Tate, the state Dem Party chair, just outright accused the GOP of “tampering” with Waukesha’s votes, so we’ll see where that goes.
hamletta
Sandy Pasch not conceding, saying race is too close to call.
PeakVT
On Waukesha – aren’t there Democratic monitors in each precinct that know what numbers are being sent in?
Comrade Mary
What paper trail and what signatures support the numbers that Nickolaus reports from her computer? Again, I had 3 party observers and was one of 3 Elections Canada sworn staff who saw and touched the ballots. If the media had reported results at odds with my poll, I would have been able to walk in, waving my carbon copy, to claim shenanigans. Unless all the WI election workers are in on this, they could do this, too. What memory or hard documentation goes to the individual precinct workers? Do they have any way of contesting the precinct results Nickolaus has published?
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@aisce: You’re right, and I totally agree with you.
How about this, instead of calling the Secretary in Waukesha evil, we just call her an idiot?
Actually, I’m happy the Wisconsin Democrats got two of the seats. Three would have been awesome, especially since Democrats would have controlled the Senate. But almost all of my posts here and on GOS have been about being happy with what Wisconsin got, and needing to keep up there fight throughout the rest of the country for many years.
Spaghetti Lee
If the numbers hold pattern, there should be about 5,700 votes left to be counted for Pasch in Milwaukee county, and that’s about all she’s got left. She’s down by a little under 4,000 so we’re talking razor-thin here. It’ll be decided by 500 votes or less, one way or the other.
Spaghetti Lee
Also, can I just say it’s kind of ironic that this uber-Republican Waukesha county has a name that would prevent any person who had it from ever getting a job there?
El Cid
Looks like the GOP idea to nominate Generic Republican isn’t working out at the moment.
Ol' Dirty DougJ
@aisce:
You’re just happy because you see this as a defeat for Obama and it cheers on your pathetic little primary challenge fantasy.
EvolutionaryDesign
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): I know. You’re right. This kind of shady crap, coupled with the downgrade, the riots, my personal (shitty) employment prospects… It just gets pretty tiresome sometimes. I know the fight is long, and arduous, and requires a lot of focus. I think that is why there are so many emo progressives (myself included at the moment). I guess I’m mostly just cranky right now.
BlueDWarrior
@Spaghetti Lee: That is what I figured back in the old WI Recall thread…
Cat Lady
I believe Bush stole Ohio with the help of that fucktard nutjob Blackwell. There’s no doubt in my mind.
Comrade Mary
Also from GOS: looks like Milwaukee didn’t help enough:
OzoneR
I’m amazed by how fast Ed Schultz pivoted from “This is about money vs. people” to “We are a very divided country”
Perhaps it’s people vs. money and some more people.
Reality Check
AHahhahaha!
HAHAHAHAAH!
THEY STOLE IT! I knew you pussies you would go back to that thired old chestnut.
How many elections were “stolen” from you now? 1,000?
Suck on it, union thugs.
robertdsc-PowerBook
Goddamned fucking ridiculous. Fuck fuck fuck!
BlueDWarrior
What will be intresting going foward is what that lone moderate Republican does, seeing as we’re ending up in a situation where he might be the tiebreaking vote on EVERYTHING.
Kinda like the legislative version of Justice Kennedy
Ronnie Pudding
So we are now posting tweets from Jessica Arp? Oh, that’s rich.
Judas Escargot
They got at least two seats. One more than I would have bet money on this morning. Still wonder WTF is wrong with people… but I know squat about any of those districts.
Looked for poll data on next week’s recall election, couldn’t find anything yet.
Reality Check
I’m sorry it’s bad to gloat. Here:
http://tinyurl.com/3szzalb
Linnaeus
@Reality Check:
Two more Dems. Tide’s turning, friend. :)
Hawes
Clearly Obama did not use the bully pulpit well enough or establish a Lakoffian narrative clearly enough.
BGinCHI
Whenever the dolts who believe the GOP supports their ability to have healthcare and a decent way of life come to the realization that they are fucked, this will continue.
The second the media narrative fails to support the crazy ideas the GOP has, this will happen quickly. The only alternative, over time, is to take away the vote.
Spaghetti Lee
@BlueDWarrior:
That Schultz guy voted against the original bill the first time. What does anyone think the odds are that he’d vote for a repeal, and it would pass the Senate 17-16? I mean yeah, useless with Walker in office, but it might be a good shot across the bow.
EvolutionaryDesign
@Reality Check: So this is how you get the outside world to communicate with you, huh? Bravo sir or madam.
Reality Check
Here’s some motivation for you guys for the next big election:
http://tinyurl.com/5wujfu
fasteddie9318
The important thing is that it was a moral victory. I love those.
Is it OK now to say “you get what you vote for” as far as WI is concerned, or better to wait until the tampering accusations have run their course?
OzoneR
@Judas Escargot:
They’re swing districts where the deciding factor is swing voters.
Basically, these are the districts that are bellwethers, and they split almost down the middle.
My take from this? While there’s a strong left, there’s a slightly stronger right thanks to a large number of apathetic voters
jwb
@Judas Escargot: As long as people show up, I think next week’s elections will be fine. So far I haven’t seen anyone raising alarm bells other than the usual concern about turnout.
aisce
i think you have me confused with somebody else. i’ve never been anything but complimentary towards the president. who has nothing to do with anything that happened tonight.
i do, however, have no problem taking the piss out of overexcited internet goers. or is this now a snark free zone?
jnfr
I hate that I can’t trust our voting systems. It’s the basic block of democracy, and proves the corruption. Damn it.
WaterGirl
Congratulations to every person who worked their butt off for a democratic victory in wisconsin. We all owe you a debt of thanks!
Spaghetti Lee
@OzoneR:
Most of these districts lean right. I mean it’s not rural Texas or anything but you probably shouldn’t use them as bellwethers.
@fasteddie9318:
Um, I’m going to go with “not OK”, because it’s one fucking town in one fucking super-Republican county that won it for the Republicans, so using that as a blanket accusation against Wisconsin in general would be pretty stupid.
jwb
@OzoneR: These were an odd set of seats, however, since they were contested in 2008 when Obama took the state.
OzoneR
@Spaghetti Lee:
These are Bush/Kerry, Doyle/Walker districts, they, except for SD-32, probably lean right in the state, but not in the country I don’t think.
Seebach
Watch as the right wing now circles the wagons to protect a government employee. Irony.
Omnes Omnibus
@OzoneR: There aren’t really swing districts. They are districts which had Republicans reps who had served more than one year. That is how the districts were chosen. Don’t blather about things you known nothing about. Christ.
Reality Check
The future of the Democrat Party is a Secretary of State recounting ballots and then declaring the Republican the victor…FOREVER!
TooManyJens
@OzoneR:
Apathetic voters who came out in large numbers in an August recall election?
Spaghetti Lee
@OzoneR:
Well, leaning right in the state is what matters, because state politics is what we’re talking about here.
fasteddie9318
@Spaghetti Lee: Did a majority of voters in WI not elect Scott Walker and Ron
TurgidsonJohnson, or were they appointed directly by the Kochs? I wish this recall had worked out, but it didn’t, and I feel bad for decent Wisconsinites, to a point. Elections have consequences.jwb
For those of you not following Cole on Twitter, his snarky tweet a few minutes ago was priceless:
OzoneR
@Spaghetti Lee:
sure, and if you’d ask me, I’d tell you that Walker and the Republican majority is to the right of the state of Wisconsin
But nationally, it’s a different story, and the lesson here nationally is, no, not all the working class voters are fighting for working class values, not even in Wisconsin.
FormerSwingVoter
Why are Republicans so gleeful over this? It’d be like Democrats dancing after 2010 because they kept control of the Senate.
James E. Powell
@jwb:
I don’t recall the exact numbers, but I believe that of the six senate districts, four of them are red or lean red, while two of them inexplicably voted for the Republican while voting for Obama. I could be off on this.
WaterGirl
Omnes – thanks for playing your part in Wisconsin.
I am headed for bed but I am still unclear about whether you have eaten kitty or not. You know, on second thought, unless the answer is no, I don’t really want to know the answer.
‘Night all. Even if the fight for the 3rd seat isn’t successful, I think this was a win tonight in Wisconsin. For all of us.
jwb
@Reality Check: Weren’t you the one questioning too-convenient narratives earlier today? I believe you were. Unfortunately, you never question your own too-convenient narrative.
Reality Check
Maybe the Koch Bros. stole this election too:
http://tinyurl.com/3dkn3no
Mnemosyne
@Comrade Mary:
Any idea when the official totals are going to be announced? AP still doesn’t have them.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: Kitty? Is that the term for it these days?
jwb
@James E. Powell: Yes, my point was that these are not typical bellweather districts: these are districts that voted for Republican senators in a year with exceptionally high Democratic turnout. OzoneR was making them out to be classic swing districts. They are nothing of the sort.
Linnaeus
@FormerSwingVoter:
Part of the game, I guess. Accentuating the positive, from their perspective. Just like I look at two more Democratic seats and think “well, that’s better than it was before”. Now our side has to keep it up. Things will change if we do that.
Marshal T
I hate this country. I’m ready to expatriate as soon as I’m finished with grad school. That one political party could be come so powerful and destructive in a state that it tears its labor laws to pieces and progressive voters there can’t even win a recall election after it happens.
Fuck Wisconsin. Fuck America. It’s over.
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: Hmm. Perhaps I missed a dog whistle in the earlier conversation? I am on my iPad now, but in the morning at my computer I will search for the thread and see if I missed what I apparently missed. :-)
shortstop
Ozone: for once, quit while you’re behind.
Omnes Omnibus
@jwb: OzoneR has a narrative that he pushes.
OzoneR
@FormerSwingVoter:
well they kinda did
Comrade Luke
NY Times: “At Least 3 Wis. Republicans Retain Seats”
Sigh…
Spaghetti Lee
@fasteddie9318:
My point is (and I’ve said this before) people talk about corrupt Republican voting apparatuses at the most, and a monolithic Republican base that’s experts at propagandizing, getting out the vote, and controlling the narrative at the least, yet when it comes time to blame someone for letting some wingnut win an election, the blame never seems to fall with these people, but with the electorate in general, always accompanied by snarky comments of “Well what did you expect from those hicks out in (name of state).” The right-wing machine itself never seems to get the brunt of the blame.
Yes, they elected Johnson and Walker, both by about 52-48 margins. Take out Milwaukee’s 3 suburban collar counties and both would have lost big. I guess with that in mind I just can’t work up the bile to condemn the state as a whole for being idiots when the idiots are almost all concentrated in a few places (and in this election and the supreme court one, their precincts had the final say), and I’m not sure a lot of them are “idiots” so much as fellow plutocrats to Koch et. al who know exactly what they’re voting for and do it with pleasure. Me, I’d rather focus on getting the bad guys out of office than anything else.
OzoneR
@jwb:
while also voting for a Democratic president, that’s my point.
Comrade Luke
@shortstop:
That never happens.
Linnaeus
@Marshal T:
Flip 1900 votes in one district, and it’s a different story. Recall elections are difficult to win.
OzoneR
Why is it that the left looses its shit at the suggestion that maybe some middle class and working class voters do not fight for their own interests, and are actually opposed to them?
jwb
@Omnes Omnibus: Yup, and it even has some validity. But he’s often very sloppy with his data points.
Will Reks
You’re trying too hard, Reality Check.
The GOP in WI made lifelong enemies amongst cops, firefighters, teachers, and nurses. Union thugs, right? They’re middle class people with families. And they vote.
Walker will face the music early next year and the Nov. 2012 electorate will be much different than in 2010.
fhtagn
@Reality Check:
So you lost two seats and you want to celebrate? Did you celebrate in 1865, 1945 and 1964 as well? How did you react to those defeats for your team?
Spaghetti Lee
@Marshal T:
and destructive in a state that it tears its labor laws to pieces and progressive voters there can’t even win a recall election after it happens.
This is Waukesha county we’re talking about. Whatever progressive voters exist are scattered and few. But you’re seriously blaming the Democrats for lack of effort? Dude, 6 recall elections in the middle of the summer is rare enough, let alone winning two of them and coming within 5% in another two, all in Republican-leaning districts.
But by all means focus your anger on the people who worked so hard to try to make it happen. Yeah, that’ll be a big fucking help right there.
RadioOne
Isn’t Waukesha County a exurb of Milwaukee? If the mid west exurbs are anything like they are in the northeast, they are fonts of modern John Galt Republicanism with their many country club/ski club gated communities. I agree that the delay on reporting the results with such consistency is weird, but I don’t think the reported final tally will be weird at all.
Linnaeus
@OzoneR:
I don’t, because I know people like that. Hell, in about a week, I’m going to be surrounded by those folks.
But I also don’t think political parameters are fixed. Yeah, there’ll always be the folks you describe, but there’ll be others who aren’t and others who can be convinced to side with you. Work on those people.
PeakVT
Waukesha seems to have reported its last outstanding precinct.
celticdragonchick
@Reality Check:
I can find a few things for you to suck on.
You won’t like it, though. That I can promise.
Spaghetti Lee
@OzoneR:
Could you please stop dancing around whatever point you’re trying to make and make it, cause I’m getting tired of this.
Yes, national elections centered around national issues don’t always mirror local elections centered around local ones. Shocking but true! Sometimes the individual candidates involved have something to do with it! Or sometimes a state level party has different goals and demographics and histories than a national level one! Man, the cognitive dissonance is just driving me bonkers!
Seriously, is this all it takes to make you cry conspiracy or whatever it is you’re doing?
aisce
ooh, we got a nazi shoutout at last! and just in the nick of time. internet, you sly dog, you win again.
godwin uber alles.
ant
so what is the percentage of residents that live in Waukesha county that turned out for this election?
anybody know?
fasteddie9318
@Spaghetti Lee: Yeah, voting corruption stays in the realm of wild speculation until serious evidence surfaces. Unless you assume fraud, surely some blame has to go to the voters, or at least those voters dumb enough to be in that monolithic Republican base, or the ones too stupid and/or lazy to go get informed or, hell, go vote. I do feel for the folks who did the right thing and got stuck with Walker anyway, but them’s the breaks in a democratic or pseudo-democratic system. The rest of them frankly should be kicked in the nuts if and when they finally come to regret what they’ve helped bring about.
celticdragonchick
By the by, Reality…that is two seats you just lost. That means one fucking flip from a nervous nellie on your side for any vote will kill something.
Go back to farting in your bathtub and biting at the bubbles. It is a better use of your time.
Bullsmith
Let me guess. The popular vote could possibly have gone to the Democrat, but for perfectly reasonable, normal, legal reasons the Republicans pull it out in a squeaker. Hardball politics and all that. Take another kick at the football, this time for sure it’ll go your way.
Hindsight showed Mexico’s federal elections were rigged for most of the 20th century. At the time it was a perfectly functional, if predictable, democratic state.
Spaghetti Lee
@ant:
Well, the only Waukesha portion in the district is one town (Menomonee Falls) of about 35,000 people, and about 13,000 people voted. So, turnout rate of about 40%, not all that unbelievable.
I’m absolutely willing to investigate Nickolaus for fraud-as many close shaves as she’s had, she should expect it-but I wouldn’t be surprised if it ends up being a totally legit bean-counting and we just didn’t have enough beans. The right-wing keeps winning for several reasons, but a prominent one is that they’re dedicated, they follow politics, and they always vote in a monolithic, institutional way that the left hasn’t captured.
OzoneR
@Spaghetti Lee: How is this not a national issue? You mean to tell me there are people who support getting rid of collective bargaining for public workers in Wisconsin, but would not support it nationally?
This isn’t an election based on whether or not to establish a state lottery or build a highway through Eau Claire, this is a major labor issue that is also making news in Ohio, Michigan and other states.
This is a national issue.
Mnemosyne
@PeakVT:
And Milwaukee still has 12 precincts out. Weird.
AxelFoley
@celticdragonchick:
You never know, he might.
Spaghetti Lee
@fasteddie9318:
Well, not just fraud, but the general Republican noise machine and various right-wing institutions. It just seems weird to me that they never catch as much crap as the independents. It’s like we can depend on the right to be evil, but we yell at the middle because they disappoint us. But as long as this country is governed by whoever gets the most votes, the primary goal should be convincing the middle to join us, not yelling at them for not being as politically obsessive as we are.
And beyond tactics, I will admit that I just don’t like the whole sentiment. “You get what you deserve” as a final judgment seems very Randian to me, very exclusionary of the idea that people deserve to be treated with a minimum amount of decency even if they’re not that successful or not that bright.
Chris
@Spaghetti Lee:
Well, it helps that what their voters watch isn’t news so much as a 24-hour Two Minutes Hate, designed to feed them the party line and feed them as many doses of fury as possible each day, which adds up to making them angry enough to go vote at the polls to screw these bastards they keep hearing about.
There’s no equivalent Pravda machine on the left.
Mnemosyne
@OzoneR:
It’s a national issue, but it’s not a national election. It’s not even a statewide election. I’ve already seen several Wisconsin Democrats say they’re not surprised that Clark (IIRC) lost, because the guy was an extremely problematic candidate and the Republican’s negative ads were devastating to Clark because they were all true.
People aren’t going to vote for someone like that in a local election because people in Ohio are concerned about labor issues.
celticdragonchick
@AxelFoley:
There is no accounting for taste. What I had in mind for him involved ammonium hydroxide, though.
celticdragonchick
@AxelFoley:
There is no accounting for taste. What I had in mind for him involved ammonium hydroxide, though.
Omnes Omnibus
@OzoneR: In 2010, the Republicans did not run on the agenda they introduced after taking office. They ran on jobs. In 2011, now, recall elections, of necessity, took place in Republican districts. The fact that at least two flipped means that people are getting it. there is major buyers remorse on the part of a lot of people who believed the rhetoric on jobs.
Cain
@Spaghetti Lee:
Isn’t that how the Nazis got control to? The general public just didn’t give a shit?
celticdragonchick
@Spaghetti Lee:
Not Randian. Hobbesian. If people end up being too fucking stupid/manipulated/greedy/whatever to maintain their own government, then another system of governance will take power…and the erstwhile voters will have only themsleves to blame if they do not the results.
celticdragonchick
@Spaghetti Lee:
Not Randian. Hobbesian. If people end up being too fucking stupid/manipulated/greedy/whatever to maintain their own government, then another system of governance will take power…and the erstwhile voters will have only themsleves to blame if they do not the results.
JGabriel
Hmm. Wonder if Milwaukee and Madison will riot like London tomorrow in response to Kathy Nickolaus and the GOP stealing another election.
.
OzoneR
@Omnes Omnibus: :
I mentioned this before, I disagree, nearly every add I saw that election from the Republican side was “We need to cut spending and lower taxes for more jobs”
That’s what they won on. Well that and the President is a black guy.
Now, you want to tell me people were stupid and not thinking clearly when they cast their vote, that’s fine, but they didn’t hide their agenda, it was right there in the open for anyone who actually gave enough of a damn to pay attention to see.
BlueDWarrior
@Omnes Omnibus: I think this is what truly concerns me about the emoprogs. Sometimes you run the best campaign you honestly can given the constraints of whatever election you are working with (here a recall in the dead of summer in some farily Republican districts) and sometimes the result you want to happen just wont happen.
The question is how many people are truly committed and keep banging that drum until people start listening, or how many are going to scream “F THE WORLD” and quit.
OzoneR
@Mnemosyne:
So what you’re saying is issues don’t decide elections.
Yutsano
@JGabriel: Cheeseheads don’t do rioting. I’d be on the lookout for flying beer steins however. And Nickolaus better have the fucking paper trail from hell or Pausch better call up the lawyer folk.
(Which we happen to have one both local and available…)
Omnes Omnibus
@OzoneR: Were you in Wisconsin watching the ads and reading the statements from the WI candidates? No? I was.
celticdragonchick
@Cain:
A big chunk of it was Hindenburg’s mistaken belief that Hitler could be controlled while using him to get a controlling share of Parliament. Also, the Nazi’s were masterful at propaganda and appealing to nationalism. They most certainly did not campaign initially on starting a world war that would kill 55 million people, butcher 6 million Jews and leave Germany in ashes…
Mnemosyne
AP has Darling marked as the winner but still shows 12 precincts out in Milwaukee and one out in Ozaukee? WTF?
JGabriel
@Spaghetti Lee:
There are reports that Waukesha averaged over 1200 votes per precinct, in comparison to less than 1000/precinct everywhere else in the state.
If the report holds up, I’d say that in itself is a pretty good reason to order an investigation.
.
James E. Powell
So, should we all feel good that Democrats recalled two of the bastards? Does this add heat to the effort to recall the governor? Or does it take the air out of the movement?
aisce
godwin sighting #2.
this recall election is pretty much just like kristallnacht, if you think about it. hide the women and children (and jews), industrial genocide is surely upon us.
hey, did you know that syrians are being systematically murdered and disappeared by their “government” as we speak? true story. those fuckers have it so easy.
OzoneR
@Omnes Omnibus:
I was talking about 2010.
Mnemosyne
@OzoneR:
National issues don’t decide local elections, at least not as a general rule. Local issues decide local elections.
ant
@OzoneR:
thanks
Omnes Omnibus
@Yutsano: Not moi. I have probably gotten too involved on this thread. Fucking idiots with no knowledge of the state or the specific circumstances of this elections spouting off pissed me off. I should go to bed. I have to drive back to Madison in the morning and do some more work. Plus two interviews later in the week.
OzoneR
@Mnemosyne:
ok, to make my point clearer, what you’re saying is Gov. Walker’s collective bargaining law didn’t decide this election? Cause if that’s what people were voting on, who the fuck cares what problems Clark has?
JGabriel
@Yutsano:
Big ass demonstrations then. In Madison and Waukesha.
.
OzoneR
and honestly, except for Darling’s district, Dems shouldn’t have lost any of these districts. And don’t tell me “they’re Republican districts” They shouldn’t BE Republican districts, they’re working class districts (except for Darlings), they should be voting for the working class, and they’re not.
The problem isn’t Democrats have to fight to win on red turf, the problem is a lot of that turf shouldn’t be red to begin with.
OzoneR
and honestly, except for Darling’s district, Dems shouldn’t have lost any of these districts. And don’t tell me “they’re Republican districts” They shouldn’t BE Republican districts, they’re working class districts (except for Darlings), they should be voting for the working class, and they’re not.
The problem isn’t Democrats have to fight to win on red turf, the problem is a lot of that turf shouldn’t be red to begin with.
Omnes Omnibus
@OzoneR: So was I. I live in Wisconsin. I saw the ads the were on TV here. I saw the debates and heard the speeches here. Walker ran on jobs; he did not run on union busting, et al.. I am sorry if that doesn’t fit your narrative, but, well, there it is.
celticdragonchick
@JGabriel:
If the faint hearts in the GOP are going to scream about union thugs at demonstrations, then maybe we need to dig up the real thing and start showing up with axe handles and baseball bats.
Well, maybe not. But the idea seems increasingly tempting.
Joel
@aisce: you’re trolling, right?
Yutsano
@JGabriel:
Lawd I hope so, if for no other reason than to support Ian’s Pizza again. Plus I bet the rest of the Repubs are scared shitless. They were only safe if there was a clean sweep.
@Omnes Omnibus:
Not blaming you at all.
Bonne chance!
And if I end up buying the Saab convertible, I’m blaming you for the idea. :)
OzoneR
Here in New York, they certainly did run on budget cutting and lower taxes to create jobs, and the people believed them.
and yes, Walker did too.
But anyway, if people were dumb enough to think Republicans wouldn’t touch unions, they’re too stupid to vote. Of course they were going to take on unions, they ALWAYS do.
Omnes Omnibus
@OzoneR: Obviously you are the expert in everything that has happened in every state. Please forgive me for thinking that my experiences and observations from living in the state might have some value. Asshole.
jwb
@Spaghetti Lee: In the star supreme court election in April, 11772l voters voted in Menomonee Falls. So the numbers tonight look higher (presuming they are talking about the same precincts). But the article cited here said the turn out in April had been 46%.
OzoneR
@Omnes Omnibus: You’re really going to sit there and tell me Republicans did not run on cutting the budget and lowering taxes?
jwb
@jwb: that should read 11722 voters.
Spaghetti Lee
@OzoneR:
Harsdorf’s district is the far eastern suburbs of Minneapolis and Cowles’ is the suburbs of Green Bay and Appleton. So, suburban, probably wealthier than average in the state. Working-class compared to Silicon Valley or whatever, but, big surprise, lifelong Wisconsinites aren’t comparing themselves to Silicon Valley when measuring income.
If there are districts out there that Dems shouldn’t have had to fight for, it’s the two they won-the ones centered around La Crosse and Fond Du Lac. Otherwise, yes, we’re pretty much in Republican territory.
patrick II
I wonder how someone could cheat repeatedly and get away with it. Are the ballots in Waukesha paper or electronic? Aren’t there safeguards in place? Is the Waukesha county clerk that much smarter than the people around her? Does the election process need to be changed?
Being able to repeatedly steal elections right in front of people who should know to watch closely by now makes no sense to me. Does anyone have a theory of how it could be done? Is she the Houdini of election thieves?
Mnemosyne
@patrick II:
It seems to be done in the usual Republican manner: tell the elections board to go fuck itself. And since she’s an elected official, there’s not much they can do about it.
John Puma
You’re a little weak on the concepts.
Diebold, itself, does NOT steal elections.
But Diebold systems are easily manipulated by unscrupulous election officials.
The chief Waukesha County election official is either terminally unscrupulous or totally incompetent. The only question is whether, on election days, she should get no closer to vote counting than her home or the state pen.
Start here: http://tinyurl.com/3kze62e
The Raven
State Democratic Chair concedes:
Why didn’t he fight?
Anoniminous
Emotionally this is a bit of a let-down. Objectively, taking two seats in a special election with all the advantages the incumbent had with gerrymandering and incumbency itself and with another up for grabs is a Win for the Democrats.
If the Wisconsin Democratic Party doesn’t go after the clerk in Waukesha County they’re fools.
Mike
@OzoneR: Issues do decide elections, but Clark had some pretty big baggage. There was video of him running over a bicyclist in his car. Not exactly the image you want to project as a candidate. Of course, Luther had his own issues–the rumor, at least, of him dillying around with his kid’s babysitter. But, in a district that hasn’t gone Dem since 1896, he got some more slack than the other guy. Clark, as flawed as he was, did only lose the district by 1500 votes. I think we have a better chance in 2012 with the guy with a better candidate and presidential turnout. This isn’t the end by any means. We’ve got a lot more bites at this apple!
Yutsano
@The Raven: Well FWIW it’s not just his call to make. If/when Pausch concedes then it’s actually done. And there hasn’t been a sign she herself is doing that yet.
patrick II
@Mnemosyne:
That article was amazing. I thought there were like…laws and stuff.
Anoniminous
@Mike:
Oh, jesus. And how many babies did he kick? Shove any old ladies under a bus?
With all that baggage if he only lost by 1,500 that district is in play next time around. If the Dems bother to run somebody who isn’t a moron.
Comrade Kevin
How is this Obama’s fault? I’m sure someone will give us an answer to that “question” by tomorrow.
JenJen
As my friends here in Ohio and I are fond of saying “It wasn’t Diebold. Bush stole it fair and square in 2004.”
Long story.
Also, “Wauk The Casbah” and “Wauk This Town.”
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
we fought a good fight, made some steady progress, made a statement, but what i really mean to say is fuck, fuck fuck
The Populist
@Reality Check: Nice…Who’s a pussy? Seems to me a “pussy” is somebody who cheers on discrepancies when they should call it out.
See, if it were the other way around I sense you’d be crying about ACORN or whatnot.
Sorry man, I am no pussy and neither are a lot of people here.
The Populist
@OzoneR: Well they did realign these districts to favor them in coming elections. While the turn out was much better than I expected, I fear Walker may squeak it out in a future showdown.
The Populist
@Comrade Kevin: I’d love to see the answer. If you look at the polling data, it can’t be thrown at his feet at all.
Mike
@Anoniminous:
I forgot to mention he was taped telling a campaign worker to call back a voter and “slap them around a little bit.”: Yeah, not grade A material, although he had a great ground game from what I hear–very scientific, which is why he almost pulled it off.
That district is definitely in play in 2012.
The Populist
@John Puma: I think GOP and Dem alike would agree that the election commissioner of Waukesha should be investigated.
Time to see what is going on with this woman. If innocent, then I take back any doubts I have had.
The Populist
@OzoneR: Well, I’ve come to the realization that maybe people should get what they want. If they want this type of government, I hope they know the downfalls to the ideals these people preach.
Oh well…
Danny
Well having looked at the six districts I have to say that winning two of them was pretty good. All of them had been held by republicans for many years and all survived 2008, staying republican, even while Obama won big.
It’s not easy to unseat incumbents and if we unseated one out of three republican incumbents in a normal election we’d be looking at a land slide.
Daddy Warbucks
Following this landslide victory, the GOP has increased their majority in the Senate as the voters rejected the Democrats socialist agenda.
Or at least that’s what the press is saying. So what’s the deal on the 2010 class? By my count there are 13 more GOP senators eligible for recall next January.
Danny
@Daddy Warbucks:
It’s the 2010 class that is low hanging fruit isnt it? We should go for it.
Ann B. Nonymous
Reality Check, admit you’re DougJ and I might forgive you for masturbating to those pictures of dead Norwegian liberals.
bob h
But even the two seat pickup represents a cautionary sign to Republican politicians.
befuggled
@Yutsano: Cheesehead riots aren’t that uncommon. This will come as a shock, but generally they involve drinking (such as Madison’s Halloween riots).
kay
Nate Silver, posted prior to results, and based on something other than opinion and blather:
Omnes Omnibus
@OzoneR: No, I am telling you what issues the Republicans prioritized during the 2010 campaign in Wisconsin. I am also saying that gutting labor protections was not mentioned at all. Oh, yeah, many of the (working class) districts where Republicans survived recall are agriculture oriented. Not exactly areas where the concerns of organized labor have ever been a priority.
Danny
@kay:
I don’t buy that 100%, because it would seem to assume that all or most voters in those districts considered their vote a referendum on Walker rather than on the incumbent. But 5 out of six senators had held their seat for eight years or more, and the sixth seat had been represented by a republican for a long time so that doesn’t seem like a trivially reasonable assumption to me.
If we had been talking about freshmen from 2010, sure. But not when 5 out of 6 ran and were reelected in 2008 – when we won our largest national majorities since 1964.
Jinxtigr
@JGabriel:
That depends entirely on whether the Milwaukee and Madison police are predictably killing or at least beating up people on the streets (and routinely searching and harassing them)
I don’t think you can get rioting out of people unless you’re already physically attacking them on a regular basis, so that any confrontation they might ever have with authority is by default frightening and possibly lethal. Attacking people’s livelihoods is not in itself enough, it just leads to unrest and desperation which can either be tolerated or repressed. It’s the violent repression of obvious unrest that causes rioting.
Another vector that can cause it is still about unrest, but involves use of propaganda so that the attacked people are made ‘unpersons’- shut out of media, dismissed or negated, so that they can see for themselves that they are numerous but can also plainly see that they are invisible to others- everything around them claims they aren’t real, don’t count, don’t exist.
This, the Republicans are doing as hard as anywhere in the UK. It’s exactly the same or worse here.
I’m not sure police violence is quite as bad as it was in London, though partly through Balloon Juice I’ve learned that if my taillight’s out, I wait for the cop with my hands in view and say sir and am very very careful, because it no longer helps that I’m white- I still risk a public beating on any interaction with a policeman.
That’s a step toward US rioting, and I believe the reports of that stuff going on have been coming out of just such places as Wisconsin. It’s easy to google marches against police brutality in Wisconsin. Exactly the same situation as in London, only London had thousands and Wisconsin had hundreds of marchers- in 2008.
Don’t forget that when you see total media blackout and spin, that this is one of the precipitating factors for violent uprising. It’s frustrating when they make it out to be a mandate for all Republican things and dismiss any other narrative, but that behavior is not an obstacle to rebellion, it’s one of the causes.
Fight on, Wisconsin! Your lives are on the line.