I think Mitt Romney is going to be the GOP nominee, despite his poor showing in Iowa. While I’m aware that he’s claiming he didn’t compete there, I do think the results show in Iowa show a certain lack of enthusiasm for Mitt, but I’m sticking with him. This is complete uninformed punditry on my part: in other words, a guess. If it’s Perry, please feel free to jeer at me. I’m hoping for Bachmann, but I know I won’t get that lucky.
That’s why I think this PPP poll is interesting. I thought Romney would be stronger in Colorado than he appears to be:
Barack Obama isn’t terribly popular in Colorado. But he has healthy leads over all of his potential Republican opponents there anyway and this is looking like one of the states he flipped in 2008 that’s most likely to remain in his column for 2012.
In spite of that Obama still has solid leads over all of his potential Republican opponents. Only Mitt Romney improves on John McCain’s 9 point margin of defeat in the state, trailing Obama by 7 points at 48-41. That’s almost identical to the 47-41 lead we found for Obama in February, interesting considering the drop in his approval numbers since that time. Against the rest of the GOP field Obama holds a double digit advantage: he’s up 12 on Michele Bachmann at 51-39, 13 on Rick Perry at 51-38, and 16 on both Herman Cain and Sarah Palin at 51-35 and 54-38 respectively.
How can Obama be doing so well despite his own lack of popularity in Colorado? Voters may not like him but they like him a heck of a lot more than any of the Republican candidates. Cain’s net favorability is -10 at 20/30, Perry’s is -14 at 24/38, Romney’s is -21 at 30/51, Bachmann’s is -22 at 28/50, and Palin’s is -27 at 33/60. Obama’s definitely benefiting from a ‘lesser of two evils’ mindset.
I think the most telling stat about the weakness of the GOP candidate field is this- despite Obama’s 38/56 approval with independents he still has the upper hand against every Republican with them- a 2 point lead over Romney, 12 point advantage over Perry, 14 over Bachmann, 17 against Palin, and 19 against Cain. They’re down on Obama but they’re not buying the alternatives either. The last few weeks have been some of the darkest ones of the Obama administration and for all that he still has a 7 point lead over his strongest potential opponent in Colorado.
If you’re in or know Colorado, do you know why people there don’t like Romney? Besides the fact that people in general don’t seem to like Romney, because Romney swings wildly between whining and pleading and belligerent nonsensical strings of fighting words. I don’t know a thing about Colorado. Was I just wrong to think he might do okay there?
beltane
Let’s put the question another way. Unless you are a Villager, is there anything to like about Mitt Romney?
Cat Lady
Romney has dead eyes, like a doll’s eyes. Every fiber of his being oozes ambition, and assholish entitlement. How about that?
Alex S.
I’d say that Romney is a mature product. His market share is stable, his advantages and disadvantages are well-known. He’s like Hillary Clinton, only inevitable if there is no one else. Also, he’s been out of office for a long time now and can’t change his record, a big disadvantage against the incumbents Perry, Bachmann, Obama or even Paul.
Kay
@Alex S.:
I agree with that. I think he has a very good, disciplined campaign, and he’s in states, where he’s getting positive local press, which I think is hugely important, and often over-looked by national pundits.
Michigan, for example. I followed him there (in the news, not personally) , and he did well, in terms of campaign tactics and such.
cathyx
That, and some of his best friends are corporations.
Omnes Omnibus
Favorability questions in a poll asked are fairly useless when asked in a vacuum. Elections are zero sum games, if people prefer Obama to his opponent, Obama wins. It really is that simple.
beltane
@Alex S.: Except Hillary Clinton was always wildly popular with certain segments of the Democratic base in a way Romney never was with Republicans. We will never be treated to the sight of Republican PUMAs losing their sh#t over a Romeny loss.
Samara Morgan
We hate teh polygs.
no, srsly, Colorado loathes mormons.
they have turned whole towns into podpeople in the Four Corners and along the Utah border. they fasten on the ADC system like lampreys, the spirit wives all collect mega-welfare.
And we unnerstand very well that this guy and Romney are both MORMONS.
Jewish Steel
@Omnes Omnibus: And if independents are unenthused and stay home? Does a depressed turnout not favor R?
Chris
I thought Hispanic immigration into Colorado was what turned the state blue last time around. So whatever the explanation is probably involves the immigrant vote in some way.
cathyx
I’ll repeat what I said before. A mormon who is also a republican will never get elected. Republicans tend toward the bigotry, and just as they would not elect a black man, they would not elect a mormon.
beltane
In 2008, my Republican, but not teabagger, neighbors had McCain signs all over the lawn for the primary but not for the general election. I’m pretty sure it had to do with the PALIN part of McCain/Palin, as they are not the sort of people who approve of her “type”. If Bachmann wins the nomination I don’t know what these people will do. They’d never vote for Obama, but I don’t see them being very enthused about Michele and Marcus. There really aren’t any good options for non-evangelical conservatives these days it seems.
Pongo
I think Samara’s right. Wouldn’t be surprised if there are similar negative feelings towards Romney in Arizona. Large Mormon populations in certain parts of the state and they are viewed with distrust and outright fear as being isolated and endorsing an ‘us vs them’ attitude (as if other religions don’t?). It’s probably not right, but the Four Corners situation and the tolerance of the states involved for polygamy and child rape/marriage has really turned people off to the entire church, even though traditional Mormons aren’t involved in these activities.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Romney looks like a giant, plastic Ken doll. With magic underwear. He’s no conservative so he doesn’t stand a chance with them.
He’s not batshit insane enough to be considered one, not with the new
standardslows being set on the right.Kay
@Samara Morgan:
Samara, don’t continue the religious screeds re: Romney. If you want to say that his religion is a factor, fine, but I don’t like your attacking all Mormons. I’m not going to let you use my Romney post to attack a whole group of people, and that’s what you’re doing.
So just control yourself. I’m asking.
harlana
@cathyx: I totally agree, it will not go down well in the south at all. I’ve been a little cocky about this race being so entertaining, but lately I’m a little concerned about all this touting of Perry’s “jobs record” – considering our current situation, can anyone make me feel better about this?
Cacti
Even for a politician, Romney oozes phony. People don’t like an obvious phony.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jewish Steel: I was speaking in general terms. One can construct a scenario where a sufficiently depressed turnout allows Rs to win by bring out all the crazies. I don’t think Obama’s numbers are that low, nor do I think they are going to be that low in Nov. ’12. I think that there are two likely possibilities here: 1) Lack of enthusiasm causes many to stay home and several states flip back to the GOP in the electoral college. Obama still wins but with a smaller number of electoral votes. This would not be helpful for keeping the Senate and regaining the House 2) The GOP continues to torch its brand and people turn out in droves to keep the crazy bastards away from the levers of power. This gives Obama a landslide, potentially a larger majority in the Senate, and Puts the speaker’s gavel back in Pelosi’s hands.
I am hoping for option 2.
henqiguai
And in the meantime, Pawlenty is announcing his withdrawal on This Week, this morning…
pawlenty-to-quit-presidential-race
Jewish Steel
@cathyx: Thought experiment: would I vote for a Mormon? Sure! Why the hell not? If he was the democrat in a GE, no problem.
Would I vote for a Mormon in a primary? Probably not. Unless he was some kind of super-candidate, GE viability would stay my hand.
Jewish Steel
@Omnes Omnibus:
As far as gaming this one out, I think that’s spot on.
Me too. I’d settle for something between 1 and 2 even.
Snarkworth
@Cacti: But it’s a sincere phony.
kay
@Jewish Steel:
Did you watch his Kennedy speech last time? Way too much pleading. I don’t think a person can strike a strong pose on religious tolerance while at the same time begging people to forgive him for his religion.
I was left a little confused on his position on religion, actually. Good or bad? Not a legit factor? I don’t know. He didn’t say.
cathyx
@Jewish Steel: Again, let me emphasize that I’m talking republicans, not democrats. Democrats are less concerned about that kind of thing.
Violet
Don’t forget that Colorado Springs is home to a huge evangelical base. Focus on the Family had its headquarters there, and there are many others. Evangelicals won’t support a Mormon, not if there are other options. And at this stage there are other options.
Obviously, Colorado Springs isn’t the whole state, but it has some influence in this issue.
Cacti
@Snarkworth:
Barney Frank made the most accurate description of Mittster to date:
His only consistent political value is that he thinks he should run the world.
Samara Morgan
@Kay: but what im saying is true.
im sry, but you dont live next to them.
what i say might not be polite, but its true. Coloradoans are suspicious and resentful to mormons. The spirit wives file for ADC and foodstamps and prey off the local saftey nets. In some towns they have colonized the local governments and police departments.
there is long tradition of hostility to mormons in Colorado.
with reason.
i have relatives on the western slope. They are WECs, and staunch conservatives.
But they would vote a Satan ticket before pulling the lever for a mormon.
beltane
At GOS there is someone raising money for a Mike Gravel primary challenge to Obama. Seriously.
me
I hope to see Perry and Romney beat each other up all the way to the convention. If Perry plays the Mormon card, so much the better. Unfortunately, since many Republican primaries are winner-take-all, it probably won’t go that far.
kay
@Violet:
But, ultimately, does that matter? Because they aren’t going to vote for Obama. So they stay home? They’re going to miss a chance to vote against Obama? Their whole source of energy right now is anti-Obama. A negative force.
Cacti
@cathyx:
Indeed.
Church-going evangelicals have had it drummed into their heads for years that Mormons are a pseudo-christian cult, based on the teachings of a false prophet.
More than a few of them would not be willing to just put that aside for electoral expediency.
kay
@Samara Morgan:
Samara, people are raising the religion issue w/out trashing a whole group of people. You could do that too. I want you to read what you’re writing, and stop including all members of a religion. You would object to this if it was in another religious context, right? Fair to say about you?
I’m not going to police you anymore, because it’s a pain in the ass, but I object to your broad categories.
It doesn’t make sense anyway. Coloradans have elected Mormons, Samara. Get specific.
Keith G
My nightmare scenario is that with the media’s help, Perry is able to roll Mitt with way too much ease. A tough GOP nomination fight is the only way I see Perry being forced to interact with the media on (some of)the media’s terms.
I fear if my current gov. is able to quickly capture the nomination, he will run a “front porch” campaign and keep the focus on the poor economy and Obama and not on much about himself.
It could work.
Samara Morgan
@Kay:
perhaps you should give me a “timeout”.
Served
@beltane: Is it Mike Gravel?
harlana
@kay: Wow, being from the South, I would bash a Baptist in a heartbeat and, if anything, others here would either ignore or join me. However, it’s your post. Just sayin’
Omnes Omnibus
@kay: Again, there is a difference between what happens in the primary and what happens in the GE. Being a Mormon probably hurts Romney in the primaries, but, it he makes it through to be the candidate, being Not-Obama will get many of them out to vote for him despite his Mormonism.
beetle;dung
Colo. Repubs will be “Perry 2012” ALL the way. This is “Tancredo Country”.
The Blue/Purple Colorado is dead. Expect RED in 2012. Denver/Boulder not withstanding.
And, as far as Utah, its Tourism. Number 1 competitor= jobs.. Mormon thing a little.
Samara Morgan
@kay:
locally. like i said, in the tiny towns on the border and in the Four Corners area, the local PD and governments are wholly colonized by mormons.
You asked what Coloradoans have against mormons and i told you.
We call them polygs.
harlana
@Keith G: See, that is what concerns me, I don’t want to take him seriously but what if I have to? Then the fun would be over.
MikeJ
If you’re interested in fundegelicals take on Romney, check out the evangelical portal at Patheos, the site where Fred Clark runs slacktivist. Even though he is an evangelical, they’ve put him in the “progressive christian” ghetto, even though he rarely talks politics. Go read the evangelical portal though, most of the posts are about the republican field. A few weeks ago there was a big story on why no “real” christian should vote for a mormon. I expect to see a retraction should ROmeny actually get the nom though.
Jewish Steel
@kay: Ha! It was a while back, I don’t remember a word he said but I do remember the pleading. Is there such a thing as a pity vote? He might win a few of those
@cathyx: Right, it’s just a thought experiment. I don’t think Democrats are any more or less bigoted than the average person and an LDS candidate would be handicapped. And you are right when you say that bigots are over-represented among Republicans. Where else are they gonna go?
kay
@Samara Morgan:
I’m a person, and I object to what you’re saying. I just did that. Don’t pull this stupid kindergarten shit with me. Don’t play the victim of my alleged oppression. You know I have never given anyone a “time out”. You can write what I consider stupid overly-broad words, and I can object to them. It works both ways.
Roger Moore
@kay:
They might decide the right way to vote against Obama is by voting for a third party candidate, especially if the Republican runner-up is willing to stab the party in the back by running on their ticket as the extreme Right Wing candidate. I could even see some of the Tea Party groups starting an official Tea Political Party just for that.
harlana
And as most of you know, Baptists consider Mormonism a cult and they pretty much run the south – he’s going to be wasting his time down here and getting totally trashed in the process, Bush vs. McCain-style.
Just Some Fuckhead
I’m not eating Colorado’s dog food!
Omnes Omnibus
@Roger Moore:
OhPleaseOhPleaseOhPleaseOhPleaseOhPlease! [breath] OhPleaseOhPleaseOhPleaseOhPleaseOhPlease [breath] OhPleaseOhPleaseOhPleaseOhPleaseOhPleaseOhPlease [breath] OhPleaseOhPleaseOhPleaseOhPleaseOhPleaseOhPleaseOhPlease [breath] OhPlease!
RossInDetroit
@Samara Morgan:
I have LDS relatives in Utah.
You need to watch your mouth.
rikyrah
I wouldn’t vote for the rest of the Republican field because they are right-wing wackos.
I wouldn’t vote for Mittens or Huntsman because they are Mormons, raised in the LDS faith.
As a Black person, I’m not going to vote for anyone who was raised in a faith, that, IN MY LIFETIME, said I was going to HELL.
not for my actions on Earth..
But, because of my EXISTENCE.
So, no, I don’t believe someone RAISED like that ‘ grows out of’ that mentality. Very few do.
and Mittens’ record in public life when it comes to ‘diversity’ bares out my belief.
RossInDetroit
@Jewish Steel:
They could sit the election out, which helps the Dems all the way down the ballot. I like that idea.
Maude
@RossInDetroit:
That’s enough of her isn’t it?
RossInDetroit
@Maude:
Again.
Omnes Omnibus
@RossInDetroit: You are right. This is one of the few situations in which a lower turnout election could benefit the Democrats.
Cacti
@RossInDetroit:
Perhaps you could ask them what is the substantive difference between the polygamy of Joseph Smith and the polygamy of Warren Jeffs.
kay
@Roger Moore:
I’m completely confused by the “Tea Party”. I have no idea how much is fact and how much is fiction. The “Tea Party” in the county where I live all Republicans. They’ve been Republicans for years. Decades. Many of them work in county government.
I am to the point where I have to personally witness Tea Party goings-on before I believe anything about them. Here, they’re Republicans. They’re politically active Republicans, no less. We had a moderate county commissioner who ran as an independent when Republicans were unpopular. He’s now a member of the Tea Party. I can’t see bit of difference in his philosophy.
Jewish Steel
@kay:
Maybe you should try it on for size? You might like it!
@Roger Moore: What Omnes said.
@RossInDetroit: Yeah, I like that too.
Villago Delenda Est
I’m afraid that the vile M-C creature doesn’t understand the scientific method, which is to let the evidence form the hypothesis, rather, she uses the wingnut approach, which is that if the facts don’t support the hypothesis, I’ll just ignore the facts and drive on.
WereBear
No one was excited about McCain in 2008, but he got the slot anyway. However, he doesn’t have the negatives Romney has: all an opponent would have to say is “Romneycare” and the R electorate will foam at the mouth.
And his Mormonism is a not inconsiderable handicap in a party that is now held in a stranglehold by evangelicals. The Protestants have always been prone to fracture; I know of a Baptist church that split over what kind of wood the new pews would be made of. But one thing that will unite them is always non-Protestants.
Alex S.
Ah! The slippery slope of religion, or why Mormonism is wacky, yet the Holy Communion and the Virgin birth are not.
Omnes Omnibus
@kay: Fundamantally, I don’t think there is a difference between the two groups. That being said, I would love to see a dissatisfied, right-wing splinter group run a third party candidate.
scottinnj
As a card-carrying member of the Bi-Coastal Urban Librul Elite, and as someone whose knowledge of Mormonism extends not too far beyond what I learned from seeing Book of Mormon on Broadway, what is the source of all the Mormon hate?
I don’t agree but understand why there is anti-Islam (eg 9/11) and anti-Judaism (eg they killed Christ) and anti-Catholicism (eg they are loyal to the Pope not the US).
Polygamy is as I understand no longer permitted (outside some fringe groups). And, politically, if anything I understand Mormons are if anything to the right, of Evangelical groups.
In short what did Mormons do to tick off so many Evangelical groups?
bob h
It is entirely possible that Debt Limit Chicken has frightened people away from the GOP, which would be the case in any sensible country.
harlana
@Omnes Omnibus: Ron Paul as 3rd party candidate anyone?
Villago Delenda Est
@kay:
That’s pretty much it, and why the “Tea Party” was born at the instant John McCain conceded the election to Obama.
Their nominal concern about deficits didn’t seem to be all that important until it was obvious that a Democrat was going to be the next President. If they were actually serious about it, they would have been demanding the heads of Bush and Cheney on pikes 6 years earlier.
harlana
@bob h: Emphasis, however, on sensible which rules out the US.
RossInDetroit
Few people remember that Nixon was a Quaker. So was Bill Milliken, the popular R gov. of MI. I wonder if the GOP could nominate a Quaker today.
jnfr
I live in Colorado, and the Republican Party here has been torn by fights with the Christianists. The Party chairman quit because he was so disgusted with his own party. I think half the state is simply disaffected, and the very right-wing that is all the Republicans have left don’t like Romney at all.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Given the state of the economy and Colorado’s electoral history, I don’t think 46/50 are bad numbers. Not that I think Obama’s a lock, either in CO or the country, but the “shades of Jimmy Carter” I heard Tweety and Howie Fineman mewling about a few minutes ago seems to me greatly exaggerated.
Reality Check
So Pawlenty is out. I don’t know whether to endorse Perry or Romney now.
Samara Morgan
@Villago Delenda Est: im giving empirical data FROM COLORADO where i live, like Kay asked for.
If Romney gets the nom, people in other states may indeed suck it up and vote for him.
But not in Colorado, by my estimation.
People in Colorado have EXPERIENCE with Mormons, unlike say people in South Carolina.
In general, my demographic despises mormons, spirit wives, mormon welfare sponges, BYU, mormon door-to-door missionaries, etc.
And my demographic turned the Red Wave to beach-break in the midterms.
Jewish Steel
@kay: Same here. Tea Party is another way of saying “crackpot base” or 27%er.
White, moneyed, working class, old, alarming dietary practices, dedicated television watchers, kinda dim. Tea Partiers.
eta: Oh, and not overtly racist, but racist.
BudP
Poor T-Paw, We hardly knew yaw
kay
@Villago Delenda Est:
No one in local government seems to really buy it. They’re all Republicans, but it just seems like a lot of winking and nodding is going on.
They’ve all adopted this knee-jerk anti-funding stance that is actually harming them, because they’re, you know, bad with money.
They purchased a closed grocery store to use as a county building. Then they refused to fund opening it. It sat there, empty, and mold grew, and now it’s not usable without extensive renovation. Just a complete fucking stupid waste of money. It’s across the street from my office. There’s birds living in there. Good going, budget hawks! I wouldn’t let them near my money.
RossInDetroit
If Bachmann didn’t have the TP firmly behind her I’d consider Palin the most credible 3rd party candidate. She’d rather lead a failure than have a supporting role in a success. But her star has faded.
I rather thought the GOP nominee was going to be establishment backed and the TP would run a spoiler campaign to our benefit. But that doesn’t appear to be happening at this time.
Villago Delenda Est
@scottinnj:
Well, the problem is, Mormonism is the Scientology of the 19th Century. It’s a bizarre collection of purely fabricated beliefs that have been grafted on to the Christian mythology. Joseph Smith had these “visions” and encounters that formed the basis of it, allegedly seeing golden tablets (which no one else ever saw) using existing myths and twisting it in new ways. Polygamy was a big part of the early Mormon lifestyle, which turned a lot of more mainstream Christians off. Only in America, where at the time you could literally run away from society, could such a thing be done. As it turned out, to become part of the US, the Mormons had a “revelation” that polygamy was no longer kosher, and thus Utah was admitted into the Union.
Later on, they had a “revelation” about the status of African-Americans that contradicted their earlier dogma. It’s amazing how these things happen with such perfect timing…
Samara Morgan
@jnfr: in 2008 and 2010 the republican party put Life-at-Conception on the ballot.
Both times it was rejected by ~70% of the Colorado electorate.
Cacti
@scottinnj:
Mostly, it’s because the Mormons proselyte aggressively and cut into evangelical market share.
The reason why a left-leaning person should have pause about Mormonism is it has some very noxious theology about race. The Book of Mormon (the religion’s holiest scripture) teaches that dark skin is a sign of being cursed by God and refers to it as “loathsome”.
Up until 1978, the church followed the “one drop” rule, that anyone with even a trace of African ancestry was ineligible to hold the Mormon priesthood. Although the church has changed its policies, it has never repudiated the doctrine that supported its institutional racism.
Villago Delenda Est
@Samara Morgan:
I’m sorry, but you have ZERO credibility at providing “empirical data” on anything at all, to include the current color of the sky. Your posts can’t be trusted to reflect anything but your own bigotries.
Worked2Death
Tim Pawlenty, the former two-term governor of Minnesota, has ended his campaign for President after a disappointing third-place finish at the Ames Straw Poll in Iowa.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2011/08/tim-pawlenty-presidential-campaign-end-/1
Where was that “who’s going to drop out first” thread?
Samara Morgan
@Jewish Steel: not racist.
white is not a race, and in teabagger context it means non hispanic caucasian.
harlana
May I just say that if some of us are going to dis Protestantism on this thread, then it should be open season on Mormonism as well.
Oh never mind, just being the typical a-hole – having an a-hole morning – I guess Rick Perry has me a little shook up (when I started off laughing at him), totally not concerned about Romney at this point – perhaps it’s just the affect of media currently slobbering all over themselves about his candidacy
Anya
@beltane: Is it because he made a huge impact last time he ran and he oozes electability?
Chris
@Cacti:
This.
Three-nineteen
@Jewish Steel: Change Mormon to black, and think about 2008.
SIA
@BudP: heh
Roger Moore
@kay:
As I see it, “Tea Party” is kind of a free-floating brand right now. It stands for being anti-Obama , dressing up in ridiculous costumes, and allegedly for not being 100% aligned with either political party, but not a lot else. It’s gotten a lot of press, much of it undeservedly favorable, but isn’t really controlled by an concrete entity. That makes it a perfect choice for somebody who wants to launch an anti-Obama third party campaign. The brand already exists and many people who would be attracted by the message already consider themselves aligned with the Tea Party, but there isn’t an existing party hierarchy you’d have to overthrow in order to take over. It’s a fake party just sitting there waiting for somebody to step in and make it real.
Worked2Death
@Samara Morgan: White is most def a race: Upperclass Twit of the Year
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSqkdcT25ss
;)
General Stuck
@kay:
Yes, they have always been republicans and have despised liberals like forever, for all sorts of reasons, and are full of the hypocrisy that is the trademark of all wingnuts. Their passion, desire, and even a need to hate something and someone on the national scene pretty much controls there political thinking, at the cost of supporting that which is not in their best interest.
And yes, they went after Clinton, for the usual ideological reasons, and general mindset of right wing entitlement and resentment. But the difference is the level of passion, raised to the point where a sizable number of them were willing to deliver their fat white asses from the potato couch and go outside for some screaming meetings.
While it is true the plutocrats funded most of this newly found grass root activism from wingnuts, it is real to the extent it is persistent and maintains a number of members willing to participate with their time, effort, and physical selves. They are a major player in the GOP, and national pol stage, due to the fact there are enough of them to instill electoral terror in incumbent wingers, per the primaries.
So what is different now, that could cause this rare pique of lasting anger that is organized and pol active? Should be a no brainer question. There’s a nigger in their White House, that has to go. If Obama wins reelection, some of them will lose their shit completely, and go more underground with politics by other means and we could well see another Oklahoma City, or Waco. Or not. These people are in the business of currently sending subliminal messages to white America, of, you all need to vote this un white furriner out of the WH, or we can’t guarantee we won’t go even crazier than we are right now. The racial baiting and subtle hints of revolution by arms will reach a crescendo with unlimited Citizens United cash. It will get ugly, that now will seem like tea with the freeking Queen.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Anya: as a blogger at Washington Monthly said, if you want to challenge Obama from the Left, put Nancy Pelosi back in the Speaker’s chair. But I guess House races don’t give them the emo-thrills of going after Obama.
Samara Morgan
@Villago Delenda Est: as yours reflect your intransigent stupidity and ferocious attachment to Team America Fuck Yeah!
Lojasmo
@Reality Check:
The world waits with bated breath.
Cacti
@Villago Delenda Est:
It was worse than that.
The LDS church was on the verge of having all of its property seized under the Edmunds-Tucker Act.
Villago Delenda Est
@Roger Moore:
And it’s got funding from the Koch brothers, and they’ve got Rethug operatives (Dick Armey) providing the organizational skills. They don’t have a full fledged party apparatus, but that’s irrelevant to the vermin of the Village, who just need to see a trend to latch on to for their next incredibly easy to submit “story” that doesn’t require much thought or research so there’s no danger of missing tonight’s soiree at the Bradlee’s.
Samara Morgan
@Worked2Death: im just sayin’ caucasian includes hispanics.
teabaggers dont include hispanics.
cleek
@beltane:
a fool and his money. one born every minute. etc.
Robert
I live in a very Republican area. These are not very bright folks. Farmers, coal miners, and a growing trust funder group. It is difficult to try to explain why voting for a Republican is a vote against their own best interest. They believe the extreme right’s propaganda, the constant stream of lies from Rush, Faux news, etc. I am amazed by the ignorance, and closed mindedness of these people, who refuse to listen to any sort of reasonable argument.
Josie
@harlana: I agree with Keith G. I am from Texas and have watched Perry for a long time. He is a very good politician and completely unprincipled. He manages to throw shit at his opponent and then disappear when it is time to answer questions or debate. His team has been with him forever and is quite disciplined, and he has access to endless streams of money. I could be wrong, and he could flame out in a month or so, but I would not laugh at him, having seen him beat some credible opponents.
Villago Delenda Est
@Samara Morgan:
You are a serious cretin. You haven’t even read my short posts, or you’d realize how stupid this last one of yours was.
Samara Morgan
@Roger Moore: the tea party are nearly entirely white (nhc) conservative christian NATIVISTS.
not that hard.
Lojasmo
@RossInDetroit:
If Bachmann is not on the ticket, I forsee a palin third party run that could peel off the 27 percenters and make for an Obama victory of Mondalian scale.
harlana
Quite frankly, I don’t know why the “dog on top of the car” story is just ignored, like animal cruelty is just not important and not an indicator of a person’s character, there are many republicans out there who love their animals – admittedly many do consider them property to be dumped when they are no longer useful, but there are also quite a few who dote on their animals and would be appropriately repulsed. Love of animals is a universal, and an often visceral thing.
Alex S.
@kay:
As far as I can see, the only difference between the Tea Party and the Republican Party is posture. Mitch McConnell and Jim DeMint want exactly the same, they only express it with different words.
In my opinion, the Tea Party meme is a result of cognitive dissonance among conservatives. They supported Bush and watched him fail, then they had to declare him not a real conservative and yet support his policies. They only way to dissolve this contradiction was to scream louder.
Samara Morgan
@Cacti: not just race, but women and children.
Roger Moore
@scottinnj:
They claim there’s an extra volume of the Bible (i.e. the Book of Mormon) that nobody else has heard of and that disagrees with a bunch of Christian theology. They call themselves Christian, but the rest of the Christians disagree and think they’re something else. That’s enough to piss off a lot of Christians.
MikeJ
@Cacti:
And ” priesthood” is something that every adult male mormon in good standing with the church has. Denying priesthood to LDS is pretty much the same as denying membership.
harlana
@Lojasmo: Good lord, you people are giving me hope! Keep talking about that 3rd party thing, I’m starting to get happy again.
Reality Check
On one hand I like that Perry talks about jobs. And he has a strong record of jobs and pro growth policies in Texas. OTOH I need to see if he can keep the Jeebus Freaks on a choke chain, or if he is a puppet of them.
Villago Delenda Est
@Chris:
One of the fun things about the Mormons is that they are one of the strange upstate NY “second Great Awakening” outfits that managed to survive. The Millerites, who morphed into the Seventh Day Adventists, are another. In the case of the Latter Day Saints, they migrated west to escape persecution.
The market share thing is dead on, as western upstate NY was once referred to as “burned over” by the various waves of religious fervor of the second Great Awakening.
Chris
@Roger Moore:
The closest thing to a “controlling entity” for the Tea Party Movement is Fox News and assorted right-wing media outlets, IMO.
gnomedad
@General Stuck:
Via ABL, Glenn Beck is saying “Black people will riot if Obama isn’t re-elected!” The projection here, IMO, is obvious.
Samara Morgan
@Kay.
i would say that Colorado and Arizona have enough negative exposure to mormons to vote down Romney, while only Utah would have enough mormon population to help elect him.
Dirk Gently
I’m here in Colorado, lived here most of my life. I see it as a combination of the following (no particular order):
1. There has always been a strong contingent of Colorado Republicanism that has been more Eisenhower-ish with a hefty dose of libertarianism thrown in. Racial animus has never been a big factor here, and people tend to be very pro-environment, libertarian, and relatively moderate on many social issues.
2. Over the last twenty years or so the rise of the anti-immigrant nuts on the Eastern Plains, mainly (think Tom Tancredo) and the evangelical nuts around Colorado Springs has certainly created tension within the party. They’ve kept this coalition together until recently, where the “sensible” Republicans have been pushed out (just like everywhere else). So most of the fired up remainders of the GOP are the sort of people galvanized by Bachmann and her ilk.
3. As people have pointed out, there’s a significant anti-Mormon sentiment among not only the evangelicals but broader population. Some of this is “hard” anti-Mormonism, and some of it is “soft” (think Trey Parker/Matt Stone).
4. Explaining the independents: there is a hefty carryover from the old “moderate” Republicans to pragmatic centrists. This is why Hickenlooper won the governorship easily, this is why McCain was actually tied with Obama in polling here UNTIL he chose Palin as a running mate, whereupon his support here crumbled among the center.
Jewish Steel
@Three-nineteen: Ooh, difficult question. Obama made it easy on me b/c he was that super-candidate. Harold Ford? Jesse Jackson Jr? Damn! I don’t know!
Samara Morgan
@gnomedad: nativists.
did you know Glenn Beck is a Mormon?
Villago Delenda Est
@Unreality Check:
If you like minimum wage, dead end jobs, then Rick Perry is your man!
Jewish Steel
@Roger Moore: If the Venn diagram of Paulites and TPers could be made overlap sufficiently, then yes. You’d have 3rd party fission.
Bang!
Violet
@kay:
I think they might stay home or vote for someone else as a protest vote. People who are seriously evangelical put their commitment to their religion above everything else. And I mean EVERYTHING else.
Whoever it was that suggested a Tea Party third candidate might be an option for them is on to something, imho. If Romney gets the nod, I’d not be surprised at all to see a “Take Our Country Back” Tea Party third candidate appear who has the evangelical cred to pull in a lot of those votes. Bachmann would be ideal for that role if she and her supporters feel slighted.
Mark S.
@scottinnj:
As an example, read this article on Adam and Eve in Mormonism. All of the sudden, Adam is the reincarnated Michael the Archangel and the Garden of Eden is in Missouri. I suppose it isn’t that much sillier than the version most of us grew up with, but it’s jarring and it sets off most people’s inner bs detectors.
I suppose it’s kind of like when you see a movie based on a book you really like. Most people get really pissed when the movie changes important plot points or writes out one’s favorite character.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I just don’t see anybody like Buchanan, Nader or Perot who would make a run at a third party. Bachmann I think sees herself as transformational figure within the GOP, Palin’s out for money and attention, Ron Paul’s a hundred years old and has his son to think about. I don’t know who has the name recognition/platform to make a serious go of it.
Peter
@Samara Morgan:
You don’t even know what empirical data means, do you?
RossInDetroit
Krugman on TX jobs vs MA and NY (paywalled).
TX manages to not suck quite as bad as the other 49 in employment if you look at the broad stats only. But their growth has been sustained by oil. And they’re losing ‘good’ jobs while adding bottom-rung jobs. Superficially encouraging but not doing much good for average Texans.
Roger Moore
@gnomedad:
There’s no projection! White people don’t riot, they take matters into their own hands by adopting Second Amendment solutions.
SIA
@Josie 10:54 am – I worry a bit about Perry sometimes until I see/hear him on TV. The guy is a bad replicate of GWB, down to the phony swagger and beady eyes. He sounds like W. Large parts of the country have swept that experience under the rug and Perry pulling it out of the memory hole will cause involuntary revulsion. All the things that have been said about Romney are true; however, he’s the one that I think could win the GE. I think independents could bring themselves to ignore Romney’s obvious deficiencies in a way that they couldn’t for Perry.
Kay thanks for another substantial post. I have found it most interesting.
Samara Morgan
@Villago Delenda Est: i think you should read something.
The Fall of the US Empire–And Then What?
Did you know Johan Galtung’s daughter was on Utoya?
she is the girl that lived.
Ian
@Samara Morgan:
I am from Colorado. You are very incorrect (can’t tell if your being sarcastic) We have a large Mormon population. The religion that scares people in CO is the kind practiced by our very own focus on the family and James Dobson. I used to live in the CD of the noxious Maryln Musgrave. (THE GAYS ARE COMING! THE GAYS ARE COMING!)
Colorado is trending blue. It has been for two decades. The D’s held onto the senate seat in 2010, and will most likely go for Obama in 2012. I know a lot of people who moved to Colorado from California or New York. Most of the growth has been in counties like Larimer and Jefferson, suburban areas that are increasingly Democratic. Even Colorado Springs is trending blue.
Worked2Death
@Roger Moore: Or they deliberately erase history: Tulsa race riot of 1921
RossInDetroit
I don’t really understand the TP phenomenon, and some of my in-laws are devoted TP-ers. Some people think the TP rank and file are just Republicans and will vote party line no matter who’s the nominee. Others think there’s a real schism between the big money GOP establishment and individuals who care more strongly about single issues than about winning elections.
If the latter is the case and both the Pres and VP GOP noms are establishment backed, then I think we could see a TP backed 3rd party run from Bachmann or Palin.
Samara Morgan
@Peter: go away THE.
الموت لالصليبيين!
Chris
@Ian:
Is that just immigration, or is there more to it?
Samara Morgan
@Ian: i worked on Obama’s campaign, and on Bennett’s.
did you?
Peter
@Samara Morgan: The what? You make less and less sense every day.
Chris
@RossInDetroit:
Given the astroturf money involved, I’d say the TPM is a re-branding of the GOP that has both the rank and file voter base AND the big money on its side.
The “GOP establishment” they’re constantly whining about is mostly sacrificial lambs without much real power (or people who’ve already left office, like the Bush administration). You hear them criticizing McCain, or criticizing this or that somewhat moderate congressman, but never the Kochs and Murdochs of the world. The party’s real bosses still have a complete free rein.
Jennifer
I think a lot of the confusion about the so-called “tea party” comes from accepting their bullshit nomenclature.
Do like I do, continue to refer to them as they initially referred to themselves, as teabaggers. Then it’s crystal clear that they are what they’ve always been: the looniest loons in the Republican base.
Samara Morgan
the reason polygs is a slang term for mormons in Colorado is that it is DEROGATORY.
that is why it exists in the colorado vernacular like stock-show-weather and slopehead and death cookies.
i bet people like Kay (who has very nice manners) have never heard it.
Davis X. Machina
How widely known is it that Perry is not just an ex-Democrat, but a former Al Gore state campaign chairman? I know the convert-lost sheep-Saul on the road to Damascus thing is big, but so too is purity.
Cassidy
They are.
Amanda in the South Bay
Theologically, I think there’s a very good argument that the Mormons aren’t really Christian, but lets face it, your nice LDS friends/relatives aside, the organization officially is pretty retrograde. Where did BJ’s famous religious snark go?
Come one, on all these issues we care about (oh, how about LGBT rights, for one) they aren’t any better than Protestant fundiegelicals. Seriously, I don’t get the “its okay to bash some religions, but others we tread lightly on” meme. Yeah, Republican primary voters who refuse to vote for a Mormon are bigots, but the LDS Church itself is a crock of shit.
Samara Morgan
@Jennifer: the teabaggers are NHC white conservative christian nativists.
cmorenc
The Mormon religion (and associated socially-ultra-conservative politics of many Mormons) are not at all to my tastes.
Nevertheless, one very attractive side to the Mormon culture that I see nearly every time I’ve been through the Salt Lake City airport on my own skiing pilgrimages to Alta is a large, extended family (and friends) gathered to welcome a young twenty-ish man home from his two-year Missionary venture. It’s the celebratory embracing by extended family that I’m focusing on, and the obvious pride they display for their returning young man. As uneasy as I am about the notion of sending missionaries out to proselytize among the heathens, there is something admirable about the Mormon notion that EVERY young man has an obligation to take a year or two out of his life for service to the greater good of society and the world, even though the particular form and cause they are serving is not one that is a particularly productive one to my sensibilities.
karen marie
@Kay: I didn’t read Samara’s comment as an attack on Mormonism but as local background as to why Coloradans might be put off by Romney.
@harlana — Perry’s “job creation” is not really what most people would consider desirable.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/06/16/246892/perry-minumum-wage-jobs/
harlana
@Jennifer: Callers to Washington Journal are chastised as being disrespectful when they use the term “teabagger” – honestly, these are the same goobs that mailed teabags to congressmen and we can’t call them teabaggers now?
lol
I think one of the things Dems need to focus one is preventing the Republicans from having a “diverse” ticket. And by diverse, I mean a pairing of Crazy Right Winger and Moderate Sounding Corporacrat.
Now, realistically, there’s little daylight between the whole lot of them. But I think it’s important to portray the *entire* ticket as being two of one type instead of one of each so that it’s perceived as being unpalatable for one segment of the electorate (middle or base).
Romney gets the nomination and chooses Cain as his VP. We can’t say Cain is a crazy motherfucker. We have to say that Romney took the safe route and picked another corporate executive who’s also sparred with the tea party base. In fact, Cain is a huge snub. The ticket is now a mormon and an apologist for Sharia Law. It just reinforces what a sellout Romney is. Get behind that fundies.
If the ticket is Bachmann and Daniels, we have to highlight all the extreme nuttery Daniels has engaged in. He’s not a “serious” pick – it’s a choice that ignores the middle class and the country’s independents. Total extremism.
Xenos
I am Johan Galtung!
Edit: Shit, he is a real person. Didn’t know.
Samara Morgan
@Xenos: really? this Johan Galtung?
we are honored.
can we ask you questions about Peace and Conflict Doctrine?
because….i dont think America can afford to make war anymore…i think America is going to have to learn to make peace.
:)
Amanda in the South Bay
@cmorenc:
I think its pretty odious. How about we bring back the draft then?
Samara Morgan
@cmorenc: missionariism is a Great Evil, and has caused much of the planets misery and massive death.
Jennifer
If anyone here wants some insight as to why their neighbors have pretty much always disliked/distrusted the Mormons, pick up a copy of Jon Krakauer’s Under the Banner of Heaven. It will tell you all you ever wanted to know, and quite a bit more, about Mormon history and beliefs.
These folks may have been the original rightwing victimization cult.
Omnes Omnibus
@Amanda in the South Bay: A number of people, both left and right, have suggested that some form of universal national service would be useful.
travis
I’m in Denver. the people I know are either strong progressives or a couple of Libertarians of the conspiracy theory strain. Denver is a strong Dem city, like many cities but people here are frustrated with Obama but Everyone, I mean everyone, looks at the Repubs and is horrified. Most of the people blame Obama for things he has no control over, IMHO, but it’s not a choice between to competing ideas. It’s a choice between not getting the color of drapes you want and deliberating burning down the house. These fuckers are nuts and Romney is obviously a sane man that wants people to think he’s nuts. There really is no choice for Americans who really give a rats ass about their country.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@karen marie: I’m keeping time on how long before Bachmann opens up on Perry’s ‘Texas miracle’ being the result of lax immigration enforcement.
harlana
@karen marie: I know the job creation thing is not all it’s cracked up to be but I’m concerned that the dumbasses that can’t look beneath the surface will be able to figure that out. I mean, the same crowd that believes Washington spending is the sole cause of our current economic and unemployment situation. Quite frankly, I’d like to smack these people upside the head, each and every one of them.
Villago Delenda Est
@Samara Morgan:
Why should we believe you? You have ZERO credibility around here. It’s painfully obvious that you know very little about anything.
Amanda in the South Bay
@Omnes Omnibus: Oh, I know, I have too on certain occasions, but the bending over backwards to find good things to praise about Mormonism on a blog that has front pagers that regularly say things about child fucking Catholic priests, strikes me as weird. Its like this on pretty much every left leaning political blog-sometimes its okay to go all out on religion, other times, you can’t hurt religious believers feefees by saying their faith is a crock of shit.
Ben Cisco
Romney is the living embodiment of Greg Stillson from the movie The Dead Zone.
Omnes Omnibus
@Samara Morgan: Ever read this?
kay
@karen marie:
Yeah. I guess. But saying Coloradans don’t like Mormons because Mormons are all on welfare doesn’t sound like local political commentary.
All I’m saying is I would like some facts to be taken into account. Harry Reid is a Mormon, is he not? How do we square that?
Is it true or untrue that Coloradans (who don’t like Mormons because Mormons are all on welfare), elect Mormons?
Is it true or untrue that Mitt Romney, although a Mormon, was a moderate governor of Massachusetts? I think he’s full of shit, as a person, but when he was actually governing, did he govern “as a Mormon” or did he govern as person with no real particularly religious bent, who simply likes to be in power?
I think these are facts that get in the way of this broad narrative. Political facts. Things that happened. It’s also just not true to say all Mormons are Republicans. Most are. Not all.
Highlands
@Dirk Gently: From a 30-year Coloradoan, I agree with you; specifically with your first point.
Cat Lady
This is David Kurtz last night at TPM, and I don’t see the flaw in his argument. I just don’t see how Romney gets the delegates he needs fighting Bachmann and Perry, and Ron Paul, who will all have true believers turning out for them. I’m having a hard time seeing how the MSM’s narrative is going to develop – if Obama’s the black Jimmy Carter, who is St. Ronnie? They can pretend it’s Bachmann, but uh oh, there’s Marcussss next to her, and she’s got those crazy eyes. If it’s Rick Perry, uh oh, he’s got W’s mannerisms without the establishment cred and those secessionist leanings, and pictures of him with the Stars and Bars. The MSM won’t even acknowledge Ron Paul. Not only does the GOP have their work cut out for them, the media has an even bigger hill to climb.
Jennifer
@Ben Cisco: Uh, no, sorry.
Sarah Palin is the living embodiment of Greg Stillson from the book/movie The Dead Zone, and I’ve got the chart to prove it.
Amanda in the South Bay
@kay:
Come one now, how many genuinely progressive Mormons are there? Not ex Mormons or anything like that, but devout, churchgoing Mormons who don’t have retrograde views on abortion or LGBT rights or anything like that? Probably pretty close to zero.
lllphd
wow; being on the west coast really brings you late to these parties! i feel sure others have made these points, but i want to get out in this gorgeous tahoe morning for a walk, so i’ll just submit (sheez, i’ll never use that word again without a bachmann cringe) them.
first, obama took CO in 08; it’s not as red as you think. but it is quite independent.
which leads to a second point: the disapproval and dissatisfaction for obama is not parsed adequately in these polls, dammit. if you have issues with obama, it could be because you think he’s a soshullist, or because you feel he’s not been liberal enough. despite the independent and red meat faction in CO, particularly the eastern plains, the denver and boulder areas – where most of the population lives – tack way liberal.
third, mitt’s role in the GOP remains strong, mainly because he’s the true conservative’s candidate, the beltway guy, and the powers that be will not allow the red meat IA/SC/NH loonies to take over their nomination process. interestingly, we saw a dem version of this in 04 when dean was making such a strong showing and the machinery saw to it that the inside guy won out.
which itself leads to point four (not a novel assertion, actually), namely that this entire scenario exposes two things about the GOP. one is that it has been relying so much on the rabid base wedge issues to gather anything resembling momentum that it is now beholden to that freak element to win the state primaries, but those very issues increasingly scare the bejeezus out of the rest of the country when it comes to the general election. hence the insane splintering of the party that may well ultimately (and not soon enough, in my humble opinion) spell its doom.
finally, please remember folks, despite what nate silver says about this stupid straw poll, it means sooooo little in the larger scheme of things. as sully pointed out last night, bachmann’s vote total is about what his site saw in one hour visitors on a saturday night.
so, perspective.
also, too, as upset as liberals are about obama, i don’t think there will be a credible primary on him, and i feel we’ll be able to muster a major offense for the campaign. as disappointed as i am with the way several things have gone, i remain impressed with his character and integrity and principle. what i feel annoys most of the left is that he did not go in with the left’s agenda as his top priority, and certainly not with a swashbuckling intention to implement it at all costs. instead, his higher principle is the strength of this constitutional governing process*. that, and his role as executive and not dictator, a leader who leads all the people, not just his base, have all served to fix my admiration for the man solidly.
*Hence his call to the people to communicate their positions to their reps, something we should all make a point to do on a daily if not weekly basis. include all congressional leaders, as well; their powerful roles make them as answerable to the whole of us as their constituents do.
Bondo
Too many other comments to catch up on so I’ll just opine as a Coloradan.
In 2010’s Republican Wave the Democrats held the Governor’s Office, the Senate seat, the majority of House seats, the State Senate and only barely lost the State House. Basically the best case scenario for Republicans in Colorado these days is a marginal toss-up. I have no reason to think 2012 will be as strong for Republicans as 2010. That Romney is down in the poll by 7 (but higher than everyone else) isn’t a judgement of Romney so much as a sign of the general blue-ness of Colorado at this point. I’ll remind you that Romney won the 2008 caucus in Colorado handily.
Violet
@Amanda in the South Bay:
Kay said:
And you said:
Progressive and non-Republican are not the same thing. Harry Reid is a Mormon, but he’s not really “Progressive.” But he’s a Democrat.
I agree with you that the majority of Mormons are Republicans, but there can be some who are not Republican, even though they’re not really Progressive.
Another angle: If Romney doesn’t get the Republican nomination and it becomes obvious that his religion is the issue, is that going to turn off Mormons?
kay
@Amanda in the South Bay:
I’m a political minority where I live, so I always feel some kinship with the scrappy dissenters in any broad group. I think that sort of thing should be encouraged, not dismissed. I feel the same way about “there are no Democrats in Alabama, so secede!” or whatever.
Yes, there are Democrats in Alabama. They’re still plugging away, although they always lose. I think that’s admirable. I’m in Ohio and I honestly don’t know how they lose, year after year, and keep going. I would have some trouble putting any effort in at all.
Mark S.
@Cat Lady:
I might like this strategy if he writes off South Carolina and concentrates on blue and purple states. I really find the South Carolina Republican primary to be one of the most grotesque spectacles in American politics, with each candidate genuflecting to the Confederate flag and making a pilgrimage to Bob Jones University. I would have a lot of respect if one of them just told those racists to fuck off. But it won’t happen.
OT–can we have an open thread?
Judas Escargot
@Reality Check:
Dude. You know there are clubs out there where you could explore these… “impulses” of yours, freely, without having to punish the rest of the country, right?
Constance
@Samara Morgan:
Sounds a little like the script I’ve been hearing all my life about poor people, people of color, some religious groups, whoever is the perceived scary group of the moment.
Sly
@kay:
The Tea Party is driven by two kinds of political ethos. The first, and primary ethos, is a resurgent brand of white resentment populism. It appeals to middle and lower-middle class white Americans who see the world as passing them by, that this process is being driven by a “Big Government” that is giving all their money away, and that they are the nation’s true and only victims. They have to regain control of the government so that it can be reoriented back to its proper mission; keeping everyone but the white middle class in their place.
The second ethos is opportunistic rebranding; the Republican brand began to crumble in 2006 and was seriously weakened in 2008. So Republicans needed something new and shiny to grab hold of in order to maintain their market share and help cast off that negative image. George Bush was just a big spending liberal! We need real conservatives! In this sense, the Tea Party is to the Republican Party as Altria is to Phillip Morris.
Corner Stone
@Mark S.:
Seconded, fwiw.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: After 150 or so comments, don’t all threads become de facto open threads?
karen marie
@cmorenc: Except what they consider to be the “greater good” is conversion to Mormonism.
Cat Lady
@Mark S.:
South Carolina is the primary to watch. Romney’s already given his JFK religious speech, so he can’t pull that out of his bag of tricks at Bob Jones University, and I don’t think he can go to Bob Jones University without acknowledging his Mormonism, and if he’s the only one who doesn’t go to BJU, then he’s done. It’s lose lose lose for him there. I just don’t see a path for him, and the media won’t wait that long to get behind a candidate. I really think the media wants Perry.
WaterGirl
@harlana:
And I supposed callers to the washington journal are chastised as being disrespectful when they say “democrat” party instead of “democratic” party. Right?
I HATE this “there’s one set of rules for us” and another set for you, B.S.
Constance
Are there any instructions on how to use this commenting thing? How do I make those nice colored boxes with someone’s quote? Link? All that good stuff? I did check the site and did not find anything.
I’m old enough that computer sophistication was not passed on in the womb.
HRA
@RossInDetroit:
After Kennedy, people did not really focus on a candidate’s religion and Nixon did not do much, if any, religious events. Somewhere between Nixon and now, religion became popular in the WH and overboard IMO.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Generally any thread is an open one for me. But even though Kay isn’t my cup of tea, some people like her threads and like to go back and forth with her. I don’t so I generally skip them and don’t disrupt them for others.
All the threads below this one are old news. I think it’s polite to ask for an open thread.
Do I really want to keep skimming past the widening gyre that is the rationalizations of matoko?
TheOtherWA
I know better than to watch the Sunday talk shows. Really. Yet I do it.
Bachmann claims Obama had a Dem congress and look what happened to the country. Did the bobble head host say “Hey, over 400 pieces of legislation passed the house but died in the senate because the republicans filibustered everything. There was a record breaking number of filibusters, making sure the things the president wanted to do, didn’t happen.”
Gah.
Cat Lady
@Constance:
Use the buttons above the commenting box. For the blue block quoting: copy text you want to highlight, then click on the b-quote button which provides the html command, paste your highlighted text, then click on the b-quote box again which will close the html command.
To bold a word, do the same thing with the bold b box, etc. To create a link, the process is the same using the link buttons, but copy the whole URL (the internet address of a page) and paste between the link commands, no spaces.
Violet
@Cat Lady:
The media wants a horse race. It’s good for ratings. Remember the Obama/Hillary contest of 2008? That was crazy good for the media. They’d love to have that happen again, but this time on the Republican side. A close race is good for ratings. They’ll do what they can to make it happen.
TheOtherWA
I can’t stand any of the gop candidates and will enjoy watching them tear each other apart for the next year. May the most batshit crazy win so Obama can stroll into his re-election.
Rhoda
I thought Pawlenty would be the anti-Mitt but the poor sad sack couldn’t even talk on Bachmann. I don’t know what will happen next; I think it depends on how crazy the Republican party is right now. If they actually go for broke and nominate Bachmann or if they settle on Perry who has a sheen of establishment on him. Either way, I’ve never thought Romney had a chance. A lot of it is bigotry in the Republican party that Herman Cain alluded to in the debate. A lot of it is that people really, really don’t like the guy. The entire Republican field in ’08 was united in not liking the guy and Huckabee stayed in the race as long as he did to play spoiler and help McCain out and deny Romney the nomination.
Romney has been playing this entire nomination scared; he has to get in the game because the campaign is resembling Giuliani’s in ’08 right now.
WaterGirl
@Constance: I don’t know that there are instructions, but someone else will no doubt jump in if there are.
But there are 7 little boxes just above the white space where you type in your comment.
“b” gets you bold
“i” gets you italics
“del” gets you text with a line through it
“link” lets you link to the web page you designate
“b-quote” gets you a box around your text
(I don’t use the last 2, so who knows?)
What you do is highlight the text that you want bolded, or italicized or block quoted or whatever, and then press the “b” or “link” button or whatever, and you’re all set.
The “link” one may seem tricky, but it’s really not.
Let’s say I type: “here’s a photo of my birthday party” and I want “photo of my birthday party” to link to my photo. I highlight “photo of my birthday party”, then click link, and then I paste the URL for my photo into the box that comes up.
Hope this helps!
Worked2Death
We gotta fight for the Right to party!
There’s trouble in the House and the leadership is square,
Bachmann’s actin’ freaky while I’m lovin’ Romney’s hair,
Tea Party busted in and said, “What’s that noise?”
Aw, man, you’re just jealous I’m with the Koch Boys!
We gotta fight for the Right to party!
RossInDetroit
@Violet:
Bingo. Substance will be irrelevant as long as there’s conflict. No analysis or research necessary. Just he said/she said.
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
@WaterGirl: well done
Q.Q. Moar
@Kay: What, now we have to care about the feelings of Mormons? Fuck them and Scientologists too. If you’re too stupid to notice that your religion was founded by a huckster, you deserve whatever verbal abuse comes your way.
WaterGirl
@Raven (formerly stuckinred): Thanks. I am off to my swim, I imagine you have already had yours today!
West of the Rockies (formerly Frank W.)
Okay, I’ll throw my two-cents worth in… I think that conservatives and liberals can probably agree on certain things: kids need to go to school; be polite to the elderly; don’t kick the family dog… However, big ‘R’ Republicans are perhaps a different strain. I can recall the words of staunch Republicans in my family. They believe that Democrats (liberals) are essentially stupid. That liberals want to give away the farm (think “bleeding-heart liberal”). They think we’re blind to the dangers presented by blacks and Mexicans and such (“They’re just different than us!”). You get the idea, I hope.
I think that Mormons represent a weird, scary, definitely-not-like-us image that frightens Republicans. (Yes, there are certainly Republican Mormons — I didn’t say my logic was fool-proof!)
If they simply must hold their nose and vote in a Mormon or vote in a Democrat, I think some will vote Mormon, a smaller number will vote Dem, and a big chunk may just stay home and watch American Idol.
Chris
@Rhoda:
I didn’t watch the debate. What did Cain say? Did he actually suggest that there was bigotry in Republican primaries that made it difficult for people like him to get to the top? Man, he’s toast. The last thing their voters want is to be reminded by a black man that they’re a bunch of bigoted assholes.
karen marie
@kay: Yes, but neither Romney nor Reid are fundamentalists. Several years ago I read about fundamentalist Mormon groups abusing social programs, taking over towns and otherwise acting like assholes.
Romney would not have gotten elected in Massachusetts if he were a fundamentalist. Massachusetts voters don’t have all that much familiarity with Mormonism. In 2010 Massachusetts had approximately 6.5 million residents, fewer than 25,000 of them are Mormons.
IMO, places where fundamentalist Mormon groups exist residents are going to have greater prejudice against the religion.
harlana
@West of the Rockies (formerly Frank W.):
don’t strap the family dog to the top of the station wagon . . .
Villago Delenda Est
@harlana:
“Teabagger” was the original name that these people GAVE THEMSELVES. They paraded around in hats that had tea bags stapled to them, and sent tea bags to their congresscrittters.
It was only after it was pointed out that “teabaggers” has a sexual connotations that they abandoned “teabaggers” for the “Tea Party” name.
As for respect, these people deserve none, as their entire movement is about outrage over a near guy who’s a democrat in the White House.
patrick II
@Samara.
Enjoyed your contributions today. Just thought I would say so.
Lolis
@Reality Check:
Oh yeah, he has a great record on jobs if you want to earn minimum wage and have no health insurance. I live in Texas and our economy is getting worse by the month. The shit is gonna hit the fan next month when people start feeling the huge cuts in education and Medicaid. Thousands of elderly and disabled will be kicked out of nursing homes and their families won’t want them. It is gonna be a huge mess that will make people die faster than they would have.
Citizen_X
@Reality Check:
What, have you been in a cave? Did you think it was the governor of some other state that called for everyone to pray for rain? Did you miss the big pray-in that Perry and Homophobes-R-Us (the AFA) just led in Houston?
Perry’s policies these days have boiled down to: “Everbody pray!” He’s not a puppet of the Fundies, he wants to be their king.
wrb
@Villago Delenda Est:
There are a lot of unemployed right now who are beyond being picky. I doubt the poor quality quality of the jobs he gets credited with creating is going to hurt him much.
Elie
I guess I want to know why some folks are excluded from here like Samara and yet we have ongoing harrassment by any number of right wing or PUMA abusers of truth if not out and out, ongoing liars… is that really your role, kay — I am kind of surprised…
That said, I am not a Mormon fan but think that people who make accusations about the faith and its implications for an elected official need to support that with as many facts as possible. Obviously, “facts” about the religion over all may or may not apply specifically to Romney.
I think that John Krakauer’s book “Under the Banner of Heaven”, is fairly well researched. The book is ostensibly a murder mystery but provides information about some of the practices and beliefs around the Mormon faith. I think its a bit too facile to just say its just “another religion”. My thought (personal) is well yes and no.
My main point is why we are excluding Samara and not some of the other folks that show up here with a number of odd or exagerrated beliefs..
Suzan
@Samara Morgan:
I live in Utah and work at the welfare office and I’d be interested to know where you get your information that Mormons are “welfare sponges.” We have some evidence that “polygs” as you call them use more food stamps than others, but very few apply for financial aid (TANF) because they would have to identify the father and then we go after him for child support. Additionally, they are not eligible for child care in most states. As to “regular” Mormons, there is some evidence they use LESS welfare than non-Mormons. Since “polygs” are a very small percentage of Mormons over all, my best guess would be Mormons consume less welfare than non-Mormons.
As for not liking Mormons, you either don’t know any or let your bigotry control your judgment. I was very anti-Mormon in my youth but then realized 1. There are some wonderful Mormons out there and 2. There are some crazies in other religions.
Constance
@WaterGirl:
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Being new and all I feel like I did in high school sometimes. Dressed wrong, using the slang wrong, making a complete fool of myself, etc. High school was a fucking nightmare and 53 years later I’m still marked. :)
Corner Stone
@Constance: I would suggest just experimenting. If it doesn’t turn out the way you’d like just add an FYWP! (F U Word Press!, which is basically the formatting agent for comments here) and everyone will nod sagely and chime along.
If for some reason you can’t see the little editing boxes watergirl is talking about above the comment box area, your internet browser may have a “no script” type setting turned on, which will turn off the ability to see some features.
ruemara
@harlana: IOKIYAR. that is all.
Corner Stone
@Elie:
For example?
Garm
I’ve never heard the term “polygs” in my 23 years of living in Colorado. I’d like to think that Colorado doesn’t support Romney because we have an aversion to huge phonies but we did recently elect Hickenlooper. :)
I think people (the press?) are making too much out of the religion thing. A lot of the people who might not vote for Romney because of his Mormonism are the same people who think Obama is a Muslim. They’ll probably end up voting for whoever the GOP nominee is just to vote against Obama.
Roger Moore
@Cat Lady:
If the primaries stopped there, maybe Romney would be in trouble, but they don’t. The Republicans have moved away from winner-take-all primaries, which means their nomination process is going to be a long slog. I get the impression that part of the reason he’s been lagging in Iowa is because he’s been more willing to spread his attention, which makes sense if he’s looking at later primaries rather than just the early bellwethers. That’s a sensible strategy for a candidate with a lot of money and a functioning national organization.
John
The poll you cite seems to show that Romney is doing relatively well in Colorado – better than the other Republican candidates. Doesn’t that suggest that he “isn’t doing that well” becuse the Republicans as a whole aren’t doing that well?
beetle;dung
@Ian:
Colorado Springs is NOT trending Blue. Dream On, unless your in Manitou….
John
@Cat Lady:
John McCain won South Carolina. I don’t see why Romney can’t, especially if the crazies are split between Perry and Bachmann. Paul is a non-factor. If you posit (and I think polling data more or less backs this up), that something close to half of the Republican primary electorate consists of “not entirely insane people,” Romney seems to have that group all to himself. McCain won the nomination on the backs of that group four years ago, even though Romney and Giuliani were competing with him for the same voters. Romney may do less well with the crazies this time around (not that he did particularly well with them last time), but he’s got the non-crazies sewn up. In a two-way Perry-Romney race, I think Romney loses. But as long as the crazies are split, Romney is the front-runner. And I am very dubious about Perry. The latecoming savior hasn’t typically done very well. Let’s see if the dude can actually campaign and gain any traction before we anoint him the frontrunner.
Peter
@Elie: We are ‘excluding’ (whatever that means) matoko_chan because she has a long history of derailing every thread she posts in with her insane bullshit, and of being wrong about absolutely everything. It’s like wondering why we ‘exclude’ McMegan.
Brachiator
Romney flamed out in 2008, and he will be the Nowhere Man again, unless he wins primaries in the South. But the bottom line for a lot of Americans is that both Mormons and Muslims are scary strange.
Also, Mittens has not become a magically stronger candidate than before. He is a handsome Doofus, a male version of Sarah Palin with a bigger fortune and a smaller mind.
Your GOP nominee will either be Perry or Jeb Bush.
Get ready for it.
beetle;dung
@beetle;dung:
How can I be in moderation 1.5 hours later??
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Brachiator: I gotta disagree with you about Romney in that there is no smaller mind than Palin’s. She makes him look like a Rhodes scholar.
Elie
@Corner Stone:
Not YOU, darling… You are our own “House Troll”…
Elie
@Peter:
I don’t know about you, but I have seen a few others around here who also fit that requirement – “wrong about everything” and such. Reality Check, Uncle Clarence Thomas are just a few… there are a host of other PUMAS with their own agendas who have literally taken over threads with their crap. Again, if our policy is to monitor “truth” and who “takes over threads with their agendas”, I think that there are more folks than Samara who do that here… Who draws the line and do we all know what the “rules” are?
Jewish Steel
@Elie: Don’t use the c-word. If you know someone’s real life identity, don’t ‘out’ them. No grotesque threats of physical violence.
I think that’s about it.
Menzies
@Elie:
I think the reaction is usually that RC is someone who is clearly declaring his opposition to the majority of commenters, so they naturally respond by arguing with him. M_c is ostensibly on the same side of the political spectrum as most BJ commentariat members.
Also, too (and hand to God someone said this exact phrase to me the other day) I think her deal with Freddie and with EDK turned off a lot of people who would prefer to argue with them post by post.
Roger Moore
I also wonder how much Colorado’s disenchantment with Republicans has to do with two decades of TABOR. Holding the line on taxes sounds very attractive, but the downside eventually shows up. Maybe seeing the crumbling infrastructure, declining schools, semi-privatization of the state universities, etc. from twenty plus years of refusing to pay for effective government has turned Coloradans off the big GOP message.
Elie
@Menzies:
I think that I may have missed that period or those discussions, so I apologize if I missed an important set of events…
I still think that the owners of this blog need to have “exclusion” definitions or criteria. Commenters of course make their own popularity, or not by what they say. I just wanted to know if I had missed an important set of criteria for commenting here. Makes sense completely that no one’s real identity would be revealed or some such… that would be pretty extreme…
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Menzies: It’s an obsession thing, whereby, unlike the other posters you mentioned, Samara (who many of us still think of as matoko_chan) derails threads. Frequently. She does this with obsessively repetitive fact free posts, which often lack coherence, but are nevertheless full of passionately believed and emphatically delivered gibberish. Should another poster point out the aforementioned nature of her comments, she responds with insults.
Rinse and repeat. That’s what makes her different.
Sab
Aren’t the Udalls all Democrats, and Mormons, and often elected to political office in the mountain west?
Brachiator
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
I made a point of watching Mittens during the GOP primary debates. He was a slick, ignorant bully, prone to stumbles and mangling of facts.
It amazes me that people want to view Palin as some kind of special case. She and Romney are exactly what Republicans love, dumb and smugly confident.
Menzies
@Elie:
I didn’t follow comments much when EDK was posting, so I’m going mostly off what Samara herself and other commenters have said about those times. About Freddie, though, I’ve been here for them, and I know firsthand that it gets tiresome to see the same stuff trotted out about him every time he posts.
Do I think Freddie’s right on everything he says? No, actually I disagree with a good bunch of it, though I’m pretty close to his general set of beliefs. Do I think Samara occasionally brings up stuff Freddie could stand to take a second look at? Yeah, I do. I just don’t find it necessary to bring it up literally every time he posts – it doesn’t introduce new doubts into my mind about his political standing, or make me think any differently about how I agree or disagree with what he posted.
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Yeah, essentially that, but on the majority of threads, it’s usually a political/substantive argument, same as you might get with, say, RC. On FdB posts it tends to be more “he’s a glibertarian”/”STFU Samara,” which is a more annoying engagement to skim through.
(ETA: The above being extremely reductionist. I realize the actual arguments are more profound than that.)
Mind you, again, I’ve only been following comments intently for a few months.
Omnes Omnibus
@Elie: Others have been given time outs in the past. Some, I think, because they are pure trolls who pushed obnoxiousness too far and others because, in the heat of the moment, they lost it. m_c seems to straddle those two categories, Also, most others will lose it on one thread occasionally or will pop up briefly and obnoxiously in thread after thread. m_c makes a concerted effort to jack every thread on which she appears. She is sui generis and I am sure that she is pleased that someone thinks that about her.
Peter
@Elie: How many people do you see engaging in serious debate with UCT? And don’t get me wrong, I wish people would act in a more dismissive manner towards RC and the PUMA trolls, but they’re a more recent addition to our stable and don’t yet have quite the same name recognition. Also they haven’t wasted months of our time psychotically stalking a FPer, so there’s that.
Menzies
@Sab:
This is a good point. As Mo Udall said, “I’m a one-eyed Mormon Democrat from conservative Arizona, and you can’t have a higher handicap than that.”
(Also worth noting that he remained a Mormon, but an inactive member, because he disagreed with LDS policy on excluding African-Americans.)
Martin
So, my mom (the not-insane Republican) voted in the Ames Straw Poll for T-Paw. She doesn’t know anything about Huntsman and thinks that Santorum is the next sanest in the race (she has virtually no sense of his religiosity). So that’s what the Fox News cloud of influence is producing.
She lived in Texas pre-Perry, but she’s very leery of Texas pols so he’s got a ways to go with her. Ron Paul is insane. Bachmann is insane. Cain is insane. Romney is not insane, but he reminds her of Edwards who gave her a major ‘slimeball, ick’ factor (credit where credit is due on that call). She has no problems with the Mormonism, as it’s not apparently a policy driver, unlike with Cain and Bachmann (and she didn’t know that was true of Santorum as well). Palin is not insane, btw.
I just spent half an hour trying to unravel that mess with minimal success. Bottom line, it’s about an even mix of good, independent voter instincts and Fox-News-tells-me.
Villago Delenda Est
@Menzies:
Borderline Jack Mormon?
I’ve had a number of acquaintances who were ex-Mormons who were so happy to be free of the collective.
Corner Stone
@Peter:
How dare you disrespect Uncle Clarence Thomas? We here are lucky.lucky. he deigns to share his vast wisdom and human understanding with us here.
What are you, un-American?
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus:
And others because ABL flat out lost her shit and banned them because she could.
Someone tell me what Lil Bob Lob did to get banned in that ABL thread?
And yeah, he was annoying with his “above it all” nonsense, in an eerily reminiscent harbinger of the recent edifice that is aisce, but still, what’d he do?
Lil Tim, Interruptus got the same hook a couple different times for foolishly falling into her basement when she baited the hook.
I think Cole nabbed Lil Joe totheBeese for having his schtick down cold.
Roger Moore
@Corner Stone:
If we’re talking about banning people, could somebody knock derF about the head and shoulders with the ban hammer? Talk about a waste of electrons.
Jewish Steel
@Elie:
As with any group, if you want to fit in, watch what others do and do that. Very simple.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: I bailed out of most ABL threads that went manic. Therefore, I can’t really speak to what Bob Lob or the others did to get the hook. The only commenter that I specifically remember seeing get ganked in real time has been m_c. Despite the timeouts that occasionally happen, I think this blog is still pretty much a free fire zone.
Samara Morgan
@Garm: how old are you?
sorry to be personal, but i think you are in the wrong demographic to have heard it.
do you know what stock-show-weather is?
how about death cookies?
susan
I live in CO (Littleton, to be exact), and I don’t think there is antipathy toward Mormons in general. At least, I don’t hear people making anti Mormon comments. However, most of my family and friends are tolerant, liberal agnostics.
There was a time, not too long ago, when people would have sworn that a black (or biracial) man would never be elected president. However, they would have been wrong.
If a person is a member of the LDS church and has populist appeal, I don’t think his religion would necessarily be a hinderance.
I think Romney’s biggest problem is that he comes across as a plutocrat. That, in my opinion, would hurt him in CO as well as in the other Western states (with the exception of Utah).
Carl Nyberg
Here’s a possible answer to how does Romney play his cards.
1. There’s a Wyoming primary. Wyoming is over 10% Mormon.
2. There’s an early Michigan primary. Romney’s dad was governor and Romney has done well in Michigan in the past.
3. If Romney can persuade the media to increase the attention on Wyoming and Michigan, Romney can go into Nevada with more wins (NH, WY & MI) than anyone else. Ideally no one candidate wins in both Iowa and South Carolina.
After Nevada, it becomes more of a spending war.
But this scenario has major assumptions. 1. That the media will cooperate (pretty likely). 2. That Romney will win New Hampshire, Wyoming and Michigan.
Menzies
@Villago Delenda Est:
He may have considered himself culturally Mormon but not religiously so. I’m a cultural Catholic, but I don’t practice nearly at all and I disagree with most of the Church’s positions.
I have acquaintances who were happy to be free of the LDS church, too. I also know a few upstate-NY Mormons who seem pretty chill about the whole deal. Plus I remember Ken Jennings saying that he occasionally played up being a Mormon to show people that Mormons weren’t monolithic by any means.
Being a cultural historian, the whole thing is fascinating. But at the same time, given how much money the LDS Church poured into Prop 8, fuck them.
Jewish Steel
@Corner Stone: I think DougJ once said something like the only trolls that got under his skin were the ones who made good points.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jewish Steel:
How many trolls have actually been DougJ in drag?
Jewish Steel
@Omnes Omnibus: Adds a disturbing element to his assertion.
Samara Morgan
@Omnes Omnibus: bulshytt.
i repeatedly link crap Kain and de Bore say on their own blogs that is radiaclly different than what they pander here. Both Kain and de Bore slant their message for pageclicks.
And pardon, but i do resent them using their front pager status to slur me, Kain as a racist, and de Bore as a “gay girl in damascus.”
And you know what? I WAS RIGHT about Kain. he was just farming pageclicks to get a paid gig, and did a full reversal on unions as soon as he got on at forbes.
And freddie is doing the same thing. hes attacking bloggers farther up the food chain and farming pageclicks on his way to a paid gig.
TNC and his commenters saw thru that, even if you retards can’t.
Cole is a nice guy. But if he is going to give a podium to every creepy little embryo Ross Douthat that comes along, you will forgive me if i do my level best to kerbstomp their pointy little heads.
this is one of the very few staunchly liberal blogs in Known Blogspace.
there is no reason to have neo-liberal/ liberaltarian/ classic liberal/ civil libertarian assclowns on the front page.
Tony J
@Constance:
When you have a few hours, treat yourself to a tour through the ‘Ballon Juice Lexicon’ at top-right. Most of the shorthand a lot of people here use has its source recorded there, and frankly it’s damned funny.
Samara Morgan
@Carl Nyberg: was Romney’s dad a mormon?
i have tonnes of relatives in michigan and i dont think Romney Sr.’s faith was ever mentioned.
Omnes Omnibus
@Tony J: In other words, “Gabba gabba we accept you, we accept you, one of us.”
Omnes Omnibus
@Samara Morgan:
Cole indicated that he wanted bring on a diverse voice when he invited EDK to participate. The whole point was to not have the blog become an echo chamber. But, w’evs.
Samara Morgan
@Constance: except that all mormons ARE WHITE you dimbo.
Kane
Obama/Biden won in 2008 by an approximate margin of 10 million popular votes over McCain/Palin, with a commanding electoral vote of 365-173. And that’s with Nader in the race taking away Democratic votes. Looking at the current crop of potential Republican presidential candidates, it’s difficult to see how any of them will receive the amount of support required to defeat Obama/Biden in 2012.
Even with all the stars aligned and the economy in the dumpster, the electoral map remains in Obama’s favor, which might explain in part why the more viable Republican candidates have decided to sit this one out. They see the writing on the wall. For Romney, Bachmann, and Perry, it’s now or never for them. None will stand a chance of winning the nomination in 2016.
Todd Dugdale
@Omnes Omnibus:
To a large extent, I agree with you.
However, favourables come into play when the issue is enthusiasm, and enthusiasm determines a lot of tangible and intangible things.
People who may vote for a candidate that they do not have a favourable opinion of are unlikely to donate money to that campaign. They also generally won’t volunteer, and they won’t “talk up” the candidate to others.
Remember what the Right said about McCain’s loss: he wasn’t conservative enough, and conservative voters weren’t enthusiastic enough to turn out in 2008. While that is probably a lame excuse, enthusiasm does affect voter turnout.
The enthusiasm that the Republicans do have is not positive enthusiasm for their candidates. Rather is a negative enthusiasm based on their rage against Obama and Democrats. This is a rage that has been burning for nearly three years already, and I’m seeing “rage fatigue” among the Republican ranks. Basically, everything that they predicted about Obama in January of 2009 has turned out to be completely wrong. He didn’t take away our guns, force us to bow to Mecca, nationalise everything, create a thug political police force, etc. In fact, the same people who warned that he was a dangerous dictator now scream that he is a toothless incompetent who “fails to lead”.
Independents notice this. A lot of conservatives even are beginning to realise that they’ve been lied to and used. And people are tired of being in a frothing, apoplectic rage constantly.
Samara Morgan
@Omnes Omnibus: so im not allowed to point out what Kain was doing? Other people than me saw it.
Cole got rolled.
A lot of you did.
so instead of an echo chamber we got an incubation chamber for nasty slimy ross douthat clones.
i’d love to hear Kay’s opinion on Kain’s Beyond Unions post.
im sure she’s read it.
i’ve linked it enough.
Constance
@Cat Lady:
Thank you. I was working backwards and saw the later one and missed your help. And Tony J and Corner Stone. I’m off to work now and will play with all that tonight.
beetle;dung
@Samara Morgan: Thats NOT true, the Asian-Pacific community was heavily recruited by the LDS.
You even been to Salt Lake City????
What are you, Peggy Noonans protege?
Samara Morgan
@Kane: this is true. Obama has the incumbent advantage.
And candidates like Backman, Palin, and Perry can only win in Distributed Jesusland™ .
that is why the electoral vote landslide….urban population centers vote liberal.
Samara Morgan
@beetle;dung: i’ve been there….to skii.
i only saw white people. :)
you mean the Korean mission effort?
is that what you are talking about?
those asians live in Korea, not in Salt Lake….or in Snowmass or Park City.
LOL
Omnes Omnibus
@Samara Morgan:
I am not, and I do not believe that others are, saying that you can’t point things out. The objection is that pointing it out incessantly on unrelated posts doesn’t do anything except derail. Further, it is quite possible for a FPer or commenter to be completely wrong about one thing and yet be correct about other things. Also, it is possible for someone to be wrong in a way that stimulates a debate. EDK caused a large number of commenters here to really up their game as they tore him apart.
ETA: This is as far as I am going in this discussion with you. I am getting back in the boat. The mangoes just ain’t worth it.
Peter
@Samara Morgan: Actually, not so. My mother knows a pair of black Mormons.
Does it seem weird, given all the racist shit tied up in Mormon theology? Yes. But they do exist.
askew
@beltane:
GOS takes one more step in turning into FDL I see. I am curious if kos steps in finally and tries to get the crazies out of his site like he did after the 2004 election or if he just lets his site continue to slide into irrelevance.
Samara Morgan
@susan: there is a lot of antipathy on the Western Slope towards mormons. because of the border with Utah, proselytizing efforts, and colonizing small town governments and police departments.
beetle;dung
@Samara Morgan: You don’t Ski in SLC moron.
The South Pacific Islanders have been a huge influx to SLC. The Ski resorts are like ALL Ski resorts islands unto themselves.
Samara Morgan
@Peter: not statistically significant, outliers arent.
Constance is still a dimbo. The vast majority of muslims are nonhispanic caucasians.
White people.
WaterGirl
@Constance: Don’t take her reply personally, most of us steer clear of samara. Every so often she changes her screen name, but it doesn’t take long to figure out who it is. When you see references to m_c or makato chan,well, that was her original screen name.
Samara Morgan
@beetle;dung: you fly there, moron. I had a friend at the uni there too. she had a fist full of club cards.
good times.
Kane
I still haven’t figured out who is Romney’s base. It’s much easier to pinpoint of base of Bachmann, Perry, and Paul. Romney’s support appears to be a mile long and an inch deep. He’s the perfect corporate candidate; plenty of money in front of him, but no enthusiastic supporters behind him.
beetle;dung
@Samara Morgan: That doesn’t even make sense.
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan:
Uh-oh. She’s melting down!
@Samara Morgan: Not really. You can drive south from Boise or north from Phoenix, neither of which are bad trips. You also can ski in great places in the Tetons and never set foot in SLC. But please keep flailing.
Samara Morgan
@WaterGirl: Constance has it in for me, sadly.
she doesnt believe im a revert.
;)
Samara Morgan
@beetle;dung: you. have. to. fly. through. SLC. to. get. to. Snowmass.
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: why is that a “meltdown”?
if you think that the majority of mormons ARE NOT nonhispanic caucasian, please provide a link.
beetle;dung
@Samara Morgan: And. That. Has. To. Do. With. Mormonism. Spreading. And. Influencing. And. Being. All. White. How??
Because you stopped in the Airport??
Peter
@Samara Morgan: The ones my family knows are not statistically significant, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t isn’t a statistically significant non-Caucasian population within the Mormon church. Is there or isn’t there? I don’t know, but I’m not the one making authoritative statements on the matter. For someone so obsessed with Empiricism, you sure are shit at actually backing up your statements.
But this is all a red herring anyway. The real question is why you thought ‘Mormons are white’ was a valid response to it being pointed out that your accusations against them are pretty reminiscent of those raised against other minority groups.
Samara Morgan
@Omnes Omnibus:
LOL
just until he perfected the pandering. Cole was sure he’d converted him.
nope, its censorship. my original ban was because i said dead missionaries got what they deserved.
martyrdom.
:)
Omnes Omnibus
@Samara Morgan:
This was your statement. Did you inadvertently type Muslim for Mormon? If so, you can’t blame others for not understanding your point.
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan: No point in explaining. If you’re that dense as to not see why…you’re hopeless, child.
Samara Morgan
@Peter: duh.
white people is not a minority group……yet.
:)
beetle;dung
Samara Morgen—DON’T SAY YOU REPRESENT COLORADO…YOU DON’T!!
MAYBE YOUR SMALL ASS TOWN, OR HOMESTEAD HOBBY RANCH.
Oh wait….LOL…I fucking hate that phrase..
Samara Morgan
@Omnes Omnibus: oops. i stand corrected.
the vast majority of MORMONS are nonhispanic caucasians.
thnx Omnes!
Samara Morgan
@beetle;dung: well i worked on Bennett’s campaign, and on Obama’s.
what did you do?
Omnes Omnibus
@Samara Morgan: There are such things as a religious and ethnic minorities. Not all minorities are racial.
Peter
@Samara Morgan: Are you just incapable of understanding that people can be in a majority group in one sense and in a minority group in a different way?
beetle;dung
@Samara Morgan: Went fucking Door to Door in El Paso County, the redest shithole county in the state. And donated the max to Obama Campaign 2008.
Fuck Bennett! He wasn’t the Progressive choice.
Samara Morgan
@beetle;dung: the mormon missionary effort is effective in Asia.
but those converts are not American mormons. They are Korean mormons.
Do you have stats on asian LDS converts in the US?
still only 2% of the electorate. about the same as muslims.
that must be why i got confused.
Shawn in ShowMe
Just thought I’d insert a few stats to chew on.
According to this Pew Research report, 86% of Mormons are white.
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1292/mormon-religion-demographics-beliefs-practices-politics
That’s even whiter than the TeaBagger mob (79%).
http://digitaljournal.com/article/289821
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: Clearly you are avoiding unpacking, or placing odds on which evil gubmint job you’ll be offered first. I don’t know what Yutsano’s avoiding.
Samara Morgan
@beetle;dung: then why are you rageraving?
im telling Kay why Romney can’t win in colorado.
there is plenty of anti-mormon sentiment, especially on the western slope.
fhtagn
@Samara Morgan:
You’ve reverted/de-evolved to something. Just what that something might be seems hardly worth discussing. Clearly your years as Dubya’s Littlest Houri didn’t do much for your IQ.
Samara Morgan
@beetle;dung: well, he beat Buck. im glad we kept that seat….arent you?
this is an interesting thing i saw on the Front Range.
i did campus GOTV, and im sure that was exponentially more agreeable than Paso.
but n/e ways there was a youtube of Buck raving about ending the federal student loan programs.
students emailed that to their parents.
Samara Morgan
@fhtagn: i REVERTED to Islam, and CONVERTED to liberalism. Got it? i know you are somewhat LD.
Have you read this book, fthagen? Galtung’s analysis of market-based economies is very interesting.
ramadan kareem, juicers!
fhtagn
@Samara Morgan:
Shall we run the tape of your greatest hits again, Bush Girl? Want us to contemplate your real views which you disguise by coming here disguised in a burqa and lunacy? Hmmm? Hmmm?
Samara Morgan
@Shawn in ShowMe: niiice.
even whiter than teabaggers.
Samara Morgan
@fhtagn: those are not my real views, anymore than Cole or Charles Johnson still hold conservative views.
perhaps you and freddie and erik can form a club to ad hom me and de-crendential me.
i linked freddies and erik’s CURRENT blogs, please note.
here is my current blog.
knock yourself out.
Elie
@Jewish Steel:
I think that you kinda missed the point. The POINT was not what it took to be popular here, but whether there were standard criteria for when your comments were considered outside the pale and that therefore you needed to be “banned”, given “time out”, or whatever. From the lack of a response that highlighted such criteria, its seems that there are 1) no set criteria and 2) the “ban” decision is highly impulsive and idiosynchratic — depending on the host’s perceptions and judgements within a specific thread.
Peter
@Samara Morgan: I always love it when you complain about ad hom arguments. What can I say, I love the taste of irony with my morning coffee.
fhtagn
@Samara Morgan:
You think we need to “de-credential” you? Dear child, you de-credentialed yourself years ago. Haven’t you grasped this yet? The people who feel generous regard you as a sort of well-meaning dunce with a tenuous grip on reality, while the vast majority on here see you as a gibbering pedlar of soft bigotry and rabid conspiracy theories. De-credentialed is probably the kind way of putting it.
Peter
@Elie: The only time I’ve seen people get time-outs are when they are behaving not only badly, but badly in a way that is preventing even people who are doing their best to ignore the offender from having meaningful conversation. It’s not what they say, but the disruptive way in which they say it.
Bill
@Dirk Gently: Thanks for by far the most useful comment (112), tying together all the factors in response to the question.
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Exactly.
Samara Morgan
@Elie: i was given a timeout from DougJ for pointing out that Erik Kain said the same thing about the Utoya massacre as Jennifer Rubin, and walked it back more clumsily than Goldberg.
Derf
@Roger Moore: Wow, I don’t even have to post anymore to have my groupies obsess over me.
Thanks for the kind words (blush).
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano:
but i like Snowmass.
have you ever been there?
Carl Nyberg
George Romney (Mitt’s dad) was Mormon.
James Strang was an early Mormon leader who was speaker of the Michigan house. He was also assassinated and the U.S. government protected the killers from meaningful consequences.
Bill Cole
Um, YES IT IS!
The Ames Fiasco is not a test of popularity or even of real organization, it is a test of how good a candidate’s organization is at buying votes. It costs money to vote ($30 each) and that is the only serious restriction on the voting. Although voters are supposed to have Iowa ID’s, be old enough to vote in the coming general election, and not vote more than once, those rules are enforced weakly. There is no rule against bussing in voters, buying their tickets, or otherwise bribing them for votes. As a result, candidates buy voting tickets in bulk and ship in people from around Iowa to vote.
So when a candidate like Romney “claims” not to be working to get votes at Ames, it is an easy claim to test. If there is no massive project resembling a 3rd-world election theft being run by a candidate, that candidate is not trying to win at Ames. What Ames taught us this time was that Paul and Bachmann have the best grassroots election fraud and grifting operations in the GOP. Could Romney have found 6k Iowans and shipped them to Ames? Probably, but why would he? He knows that the Iowa GOP next winter will not give any Mormon or suspected closet liberal their endorsement in the voting that actually matters. Since he can’t get a win in the caucuses, he has nothing to gain in Iowa by gaming the bullshit festival in Ames.
marginalized for stating documented facts
Romney is a Mormon. This makes him unacceptable to the fundamentalist evangelical base of the Republican party, which regards Mormonism as the equivalent of a satanic cult.
When you’re finally and definitively proven flat-out wrong about Romney as the GOP presidential nominee in 2012, Kay, can we then at last discount all your provably false projections and incorrect claims?
By this, I mean your provably false claims that the ACA will reduce health care costs, your provably false claims that Obama “ran as a conservative” so therefore he isn’t actually getting scammed and rolled by the Pentagon generals and having his efforts to pull troops out of Afghanistan insubordinately undermined, your provably false claims that Obama has made a tremendous difference and has made marvelous strides forward for liberal policy, when in fact the evidence shows that Obama has caved and folded and retreated and systematically wound up capitulating to policies no different from the third term of a Dubya administration on everything from tax cuts for the rich to cutting social spending.
What’s the failure condition for your claims, Kay?
How many of your projections must be proven false before we can simply stop paying attention to you?
Or are you yet another figure like Tom Friedman, who has been wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, systematically wrong, comically wrong, bizarrely wrong, grotesquely wrong in every one of his projections and his rosy claims…yet great masses of people continue to hang on Friedman’s every word, worshipfully idolizing him for his alleged “wisdom” even as he spews nonsense like
Source: “World War III,” Tom Friedman, New York Times, 13 September, 2001.
Omnes Omnibus
@marginalized for stating documented facts: mclaren? Is that you?
Yutsano
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Changing the oil in the car and going grocery shopping. Only one I really want to do.
Omnes Omnibus
@Yutsano: Oil change? If you get the Saab, you won’t need to do it often but it will be expensive.
Bruce S
Props to Mom for trying…but damn I’m glad I don’t have to deal with that level of cognitive dissonance (“thinks Santorum is the next sanest…”)
My sister was a “not insane Republican” who finally voted for a Dem – Kerry – in ’04, even though she didn’t think much of him. Went very enthusiastically for Obama in ’08. Still suffers from “both-sidesism” but is probably the perfect demographic target for Plouffe (if today’s Times is even 50% accurate regarding his lame 2012 stratagem.) Unfortunately, IMHO Plouffe has absolutely no concept of how rare these folks happen to be.
Garm
@Samara Morgan:
I’m in my 30s.
Death Cookies I know cuz I know a bunch of crazy skiiers. Stock-show-weather is foreign to me. I went to one when I was in 7th grade, but that was it. :)
Argots vary more on social grouping, not so much age.
priscianusjr
@Alex S.:
Samara Morgan
@Garm: well okthen.
stock-show-weather is feeze-thaw-freeze-thaw….like it does during stock show every year.
suppose thass true. but what Dirk said nails it.
my relatives on the western slope are “hard” anti-mormons. my front range cohort are “soft” anti-mormons. but polygs is pretty common.
its a sneer, Kay is right. it defines a socio-religio demographic by the sexual practice of some adherents.
But i dont know of anyone in my social grouping that likes mormons. or WECs for that matter.
Herb
300 comments in and no one mentioned Dan Maes or Scott McGinnis? If you’re a Republican voter in Colorado, your confidence in the party establishment is essentially nil.
Zaftig Amazon
All this flaming back and forth about how neighboring states hate Mormons has me amused; I’m compelled to add my $0.02. I grew up in Colorado, and spent several summers working in Utah. Living within Mormon-majority areas was very irritating, because the Mormon church used its organizational muscle to take over local government and other institutions. Becoming a boy scout or girl scout often required attending Mormon religious services. Winners of school student offices were usually decided in Mormon religious classes. A lot of jobs were closed to you if you were a Gentile (non-Mormon), and especially if you were a woman. If you opened a small business, joining the Mormon church was vital, if you wanted your business to succeed. And a large fraction of Mormons felt it was OK to screw over Gentiles as far as the law allowed. The polygamists were a humorous afterthought, until Ervil LeBaron’s crew managed to kill more than 30 people over a 15-year period; some of the victim’s bodies have never been found (Under the Banner of Heaven covers this pretty well). Granted, my experience in this is a couple of decades old, but I am under the impression that Utah has become even more conservative since then, except for Salt Lake City, which has been over 50% Gentile for some time.
One of my jack mormon friends told me that when you get away from the core area (primarily Utah and southern Idaho), Mormonism is almost an entirely different religion. Mitt Romney may be a Mormon, but given his upbringing in Michigan, he likely does not have the sheeplike acceptance of Mormon leaders’ dictates. He may be phonier than a 3-dollar bill, but he won’t be listening to the Council of Elders for policy decisions.