• Menu
  • Skip to primary navigation
  • Skip to main content
  • Skip to primary sidebar

Before Header

  • About Us
  • Lexicon
  • Contact Us
  • Our Store
  • ↑
  • ↓
  • ←
  • →

Balloon Juice

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

… pundit janitors mopping up after the GOP

The most dangerous place for a black man in America is in a white man’s imagination.

“Squeaker” McCarthy

As long as McCarthy is Speaker, the House will never be in order.

Republicans can’t even be trusted with their own money.

“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.

Historically it was a little unusual for the president to be an incoherent babbling moron.

Republicans want to make it harder to vote and easier for them to cheat.

Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?

Republicans don’t trust women.

The arc of history bends toward the same old fuckery.

A lot of Dems talk about what the media tells them to talk about. Not helpful.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

I’d like to think you all would remain faithful to me if i ever tried to have some of you killed.

A democracy can’t function when people can’t distinguish facts from lies.

Not so fun when the rabbit gets the gun, is it?

Come on, man.

Spilling the end game before they can coat it in frankl luntz-approved dogwhistles.

It’s easy to sit in safety and prescribe what other people should be doing.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

Putin dreamed of ending NATO, and now it’s Finnish-ed.

Let’s finish the job.

I’d hate to be the candidate who lost to this guy.

And now I have baud making fun of me. this day can’t get worse.

Mobile Menu

  • Winnable House Races
  • Donate with Venmo, Zelle & PayPal
  • Site Feedback
  • War in Ukraine
  • Submit Photos to On the Road
  • Politics
  • On The Road
  • Open Threads
  • Topics
  • Balloon Juice 2023 Pet Calendar (coming soon)
  • COVID-19 Coronavirus
  • Authors
  • About Us
  • Contact Us
  • Lexicon
  • Our Store
  • Politics
  • Open Threads
  • War in Ukraine
  • Garden Chats
  • On The Road
  • 2021-22 Fundraising!
You are here: Home / Foreign Affairs / War / Libya

Libya

by Sarah, Proud and Tall|  August 20, 201111:35 pm| 84 Comments

This post is in: War

FacebookTweetEmail

A thread was requested.

The Libyan capital, Tripoli, was rocked by explosions and gunfire on Saturday, as residents reported clashes with security forces in a number of locations.

Journalists in the city, based at the central Rixos hotel, described hearing heavy gunfire, while residents contacted by news agencies described fighting in opposition areas after a text message was sent out to phones calling on those living in the capital to: “Go out on to the streets and eliminate agents with weapons.”

The fighting in Tripoli comes after days of battlefield defeats left Muammar Gaddafi’s government and troops penned ever more tightly in the besieged capital. Although the scale of the clashes was impossible to determine, there were widespread claims among the Libyan rebels that Gaddafi’s 41-year rule was edging ever closer to collapse.

I don’t profess to have the faintest idea what is going on, other than that my old friend Muammar seems to be in some trouble.

As an aside, I’m interested to note that ever since they broke the News of the World scandal, the Guardian has become the very first place I go when anything big is happening, even in the US, because I just know that, whatever the story is, they will have five news stories, two well written opinion pieces and a timeline of important events. Imagine if the US had a newspaper that actually did investigative journalism and strove to keep people informed.

Al Jazeera’s live feed has also had some interesting analysis over the last hour or so.

FacebookTweetEmail
Previous Post: « Open Thread
Next Post: Music Open Thread »

Reader Interactions

84Comments

  1. 1.

    Violet

    August 20, 2011 at 11:42 pm

    The Guardian is awesome. Their sports liveblogs are always fun to read and of course their news reporting is excellent.

    The Libya stuff is kind of amazing. Gaddafi is the last of his era of crazy African strongmen dictators. As horrible as he is, and as bad as I feel for the Libyan people having to live under him for so long, his over-the-top costumes and posturing was kind of entertaining to watch. I hope when he’s gone, the Libyan people are better off. Post-dictatorship countries aren’t ways great for the people.

  2. 2.

    Odie Hugh Manatee

    August 20, 2011 at 11:47 pm

    Imagine if the US had a newspaper that actually did investigative journalism and strove to keep people informed.

    Imagine the unimaginable? I’m intrigued and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

  3. 3.

    moonbat

    August 20, 2011 at 11:48 pm

    Thanks for the Guardian link. They are awesome. Who knew that Arab Spring would last this long?

  4. 4.

    Jewish Steel

    August 20, 2011 at 11:54 pm

    I 4th the Guardian sentiment.

    I would pony up if they paywalled.

  5. 5.

    eemom

    August 20, 2011 at 11:57 pm

    is this any different from what’s been going on since February or whenever it was?

    I dunno…….just seems like Moomar is more or less indestructible.

  6. 6.

    PeakVT

    August 21, 2011 at 12:01 am

    Hopefully Gaddafi/Gadhafi/Qaddafi/Khaddafi/etc. doesn’t try to take the whole city down with him.

  7. 7.

    gocart mozart

    August 21, 2011 at 12:09 am

    @moonbat:

    Who knew that Arab Spring would last this long?

    Arab Summer and Fall? Syria seems to be warming up on the on deck circle. Lets hope that one goes more like Egypt rather than Libya or worse.

  8. 8.

    magurakurin

    August 21, 2011 at 12:12 am

    @eemom:

    seriously? Have you read or seen anything that has happened since February? Or more precisely the last week? Tripoli is surrounded. Ghaddafi’s number two man defected two days ago. The roads to Tripoli are shut down. The situation is very, very different from February.

    Everyone who carped on Obama for making this big mistake to intervene in Libya needs to prepare to eat crow.

    And it is interesting that the front pagers are now claiming they don’t claim to know what is happening. They seemed sure a couple of months ago when they were deriding Obama’s decision to lend aid to the rebels.

  9. 9.

    TooManyJens

    August 21, 2011 at 12:13 am

    @eemom: It’s very different. The rebels are fighting to take Tripoli now, instead of being largely confined to the eastern half of the country.

  10. 10.

    TooManyJens

    August 21, 2011 at 12:16 am

    @gocart mozart: I’m not sure, but I gather that going like Libya would be a step up for Syria compared to the way it’s going now.

  11. 11.

    AA+ Bonds

    August 21, 2011 at 12:20 am

    Whichever American wants to take credit for this can 100% have it, I don’t want it, fuck that, you enjoy that.

  12. 12.

    Anya

    August 21, 2011 at 12:36 am

    Nothing worthwhile is ever easy or straight forward — democracy is no different. I am sorry that many innocent Libyans lost their lives, but the Libyan people will be better off without Qaddafi and his craziness. I went to school with a friend whose parents migrated to Toronto from Libya and he told me that every Libyan family had someone disappear. Generations of Libyans grew up knowing nothing but fear and suspicion of one another, even family members and it’s going to take them awhile to establish a stable government, but they will get there. Soon, I hope.

  13. 13.

    Dollared

    August 21, 2011 at 12:36 am

    @AA+ Bonds: Yup, yet another brilliant American maneuver to drive up the price of oil. Now…. who does that benefit…?

  14. 14.

    Sam Houston

    August 21, 2011 at 12:39 am

    The Guardian rocks. Some Wiki for y’all:

    The Guardian’s ownership by the Scott Trust is a likely factor in it being the only British national daily to conduct (since 2003) an annual social, ethical and environmental audit in which it examines, under the scrutiny of an independent external auditor, its own behaviour as a company. It is also the only British daily national newspaper to employ an internal ombudsman (called the “readers’ editor”) to handle complaints and corrections.

    The Scott Trust is responsible for appointing the editor of The Guardian (and those of the group’s other main newspapers) but apart from enjoining them to continue the paper’s editorial policy on “the same lines and in the same spirit as heretofore”, has a policy of not interfering in their decisions. This arrangement tends to give editors a long tenure – for example, the present incumbent, Alan Rusbridger, has been there since 1995.

    In 1992, the Trust identified its central objective as being the following: To secure the financial and editorial independence of The Guardian in perpetuity: as a quality national newspaper without party affiliation; remaining faithful to liberal tradition; as a profit-seeking enterprise managed in an efficient and cost-effective manner.

    …

    Sadly they are running in the red. :(

  15. 15.

    Yutsano

    August 21, 2011 at 12:42 am

    @Dollared: Ironically enough, the same folks it would benefit also just went out of their way to shoot themselves in the foot by spiking the world economy. The side effect of which is the price of oil craters. Silly Masters of the Universe.

  16. 16.

    Comrade Kevin

    August 21, 2011 at 12:43 am

    @magurakurin: I’d love to see you post a link to Sarah Proud and Tall crapping on the administration for this.

  17. 17.

    Big Momm

    August 21, 2011 at 12:43 am

    I am hopeful for post-Ghaddafi Libya, the country has a huge amount of oil wealth and historical treasures, plus a substantial population of skilled nationals abroad, thanks to decades of brain drain. If it’s all managed properly they can be a richer version of Tunisia, a fairly successful Arab country. If the NTC screws up, we might be looking at another Iraq :(

  18. 18.

    AA+ Bonds

    August 21, 2011 at 12:43 am

    I’d like to request an Israel is killing the fuck out of a bunch of Gazans thread please

  19. 19.

    AA+ Bonds

    August 21, 2011 at 12:47 am

    Let me get all the uncomfortable shit out of the way, Younis murdered by rebel command, Hifter-CIA, El-Heriri, Berbers, tribal warfare, black Libyans, uranium, yada yada yada, rose petals etc.

  20. 20.

    Derf

    August 21, 2011 at 12:49 am

    Cue clueless General Cole with the never ending “we need to get out now” naivete

  21. 21.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    August 21, 2011 at 12:49 am

    @AA+ Bonds: There are these things called blogs. They’re free to start. You might want to look into getting one for yourself.

  22. 22.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    August 21, 2011 at 12:50 am

    @Big Momm:

    If the NTC screws up, we might be looking at another Iraq :(

    Yup, I think it’s way too soon to be celebrating. We really don’t know who the rebels are, do we?

  23. 23.

    AA+ Bonds

    August 21, 2011 at 12:51 am

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):

    It’s funny, though, here you are on this one, reading what I write and commenting on it

  24. 24.

    Amir Khalid

    August 21, 2011 at 12:52 am

    @magurakurin:
    A few months ago, it was far from sure that the Libyan rebels would prevail. It was debated then whether international intervention limited to hindering attacks on civilians might not enough to ensure they won. I felt then, and still feel, that the rebels needed to own this fight. That way, if they won, it would be a legitimate victory; and the new government wouldn’t start off being beholden to some outside power.

    There’s still a risk, albeit lesser than before, that the civil war might turn into a months- or years-long stalemate, which the international intervention would only perpetuate. If the rebels do take Tripoli and successfully depose Qaddafi, great. Eid Al-fitri there would be all the merrier with the demise of the old git’s misrule. But it ain’t over till it’s over.

    I thought John Cole, in particular, was going somewhat over the top on the pessimism. But I also felt he was voicing a legitimate concern, given the recent US history in Iraq and Afghanistan. So no, I wouldn’t agree that he deserves a helping of crow on this point.

  25. 25.

    Big Momm

    August 21, 2011 at 12:57 am

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Nope, although signs have been positive so far. There’s only been one high-profile case of a rebel leader being killed by a rival, and the fact that they’ve managed to stay united for six months while fighting Ghaddafi from two non-contiguous fronts (mad props to the folks in Misrata for surviving that long, by the way), is a good sign. Of course, that’s probably mostly thanks to NATO demanding a unified group to coordinate with, but still, it could be worse.

    Also, am I the only one who hopes to see Syria as the next corrupt gov’t to fall?

  26. 26.

    Comrade Kevin

    August 21, 2011 at 1:00 am

    Also, am I the only one who hopes to see Syria as the next corrupt gov’t to fall?

    Nope, Assad Jr. needs to go down, hard.

  27. 27.

    Sarah Proud and Tall

    August 21, 2011 at 1:01 am

    @magurakurin:

    And it is interesting that the front pagers are now claiming they don’t claim to know what is happening. They seemed sure a couple of months ago when they were deriding Obama’s decision to lend aid to the rebels.

    As far as I know, I’m the only front pager to have claimed ignorance, and the only other post I’ve ever done about Libya was linked to above (and that was really just an excuse to have Dick Nixon call Ghaddafi “fucking camel-fucking fucker”).

    As such, I’m not sure what the hell you are talking about.

    ETA: I see Comrade Kevin has my back. Thanks, dear.

  28. 28.

    Martin

    August 21, 2011 at 1:03 am

    Imagine if the US had a newspaper that actually did investigative journalism and strove to keep people informed.

    Ahem.

  29. 29.

    eemom

    August 21, 2011 at 1:11 am

    ok, I’m an ignoramussess about what’s been going on in Libya. I admit it. Sheeyit, I can’t do EVERYTHING around here.

    However, even if Q-dafi does go down — how the hell is anyone seeing this as a vindication of our involvement? This is tribal warfare that’s been going on for centuries, and it ain’t going ANYWHERE now, Moomar or no Moomar.

    There is a tidy little oil prize in it for teh Humanitarian Intervenors though, I suppose.

    I mean let’s not bullshit ourselves.

  30. 30.

    Sarah Proud and Tall

    August 21, 2011 at 1:13 am

    @Martin:

    Ahem.

    Well, there goes my afternoon. Thanks, dear.

  31. 31.

    Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)

    August 21, 2011 at 1:13 am

    @AA+ Bonds: I never claimed to dislike threads you post in. It just seems like your blood pressure is spiking, and I thought having a place you could vent as much as you like, on any subject you like, without having to get angry at those not responsible for atrocities as well as those who are might be good for your health.

    Really, I only have your best interests at heart.

  32. 32.

    gocart mozart

    August 21, 2011 at 1:14 am

    @Martin:
    Ahem, that people have heard of and regularly read.

    Seriously, it looks good and I plan to give it a read. Thanks for the link.

  33. 33.

    Martin

    August 21, 2011 at 1:19 am

    @Big Momm:

    two non-contiguous fronts

    Three regions with about six fronts total, actually.

    Here’s a decent map from the other day. There’s the western controlled region stretching from Tunisia up to just west of Tripoli, with a fighting front there near Zawiyah (now taken), one near Gharyan, and one back near Tiji. There’s the Misrata region, with fronts near Zlitan (now taken) and Tarwerga (now taken) and there’s the Benghazi region with a front at Brega.

    The western effort appears to be the most important overall as Tripoli has now lost all of their oil/gas supply and most of their ability to get supplies from Tunisia. Tunisia was being neutral here, but they just today have backed the rebels after some altercation with Gaddafi forces at the border.

    The main problems the rebels had early on was that they were too eager and unorganized when advancing, and what ground they took they easily lost. They seem to have learned their lesson and are advancing more methodically and ensuring that they don’t have to give up ground quite so quickly.

    I’m actually surprised that they’re moving so quickly into Tripoli. Reports are that they control Mitiga airport, which is only a few miles from the center of Tripoli. I’d have thought they’d keep working their way around and connecting these regions, taking care of the supporters there along the Tunisian border and coast, etc.

  34. 34.

    gocart mozart

    August 21, 2011 at 1:25 am

    They have a website.
    The Libyan Interim National Council
    http://www.ntclibya.org/english/

  35. 35.

    Frankensteinbeck

    August 21, 2011 at 1:26 am

    @Amir Khalid:
    May I say what a pleasure it has been to have an international Muslim commenter here who can tell us what those situations look like from outside our bubble? Especially one who’s calm and reasonable, as we tend towards the passionate locally?

  36. 36.

    Amir Khalid

    August 21, 2011 at 1:26 am

    @eemom:
    If Qaddafi goes it’s the best possible outcome, I think. The international community, the US included, deserves some credit for making the right call: a limited intervention with no boots on the ground. But like you said, this is the Libyans’ own fight. The last thing they needed was outside powers joining the fight in a big way, and then demanding a share of the spoils “because you owe us for helping you win”.

  37. 37.

    Big Momm

    August 21, 2011 at 1:30 am

    @Martin: I saw a post on Reddit (so take it with a grain of salt) that basically one of the main lessons of counter-insurgency since Vietnam has been that if you want to have a population center under complete control, you have no choice but to go all in. Stalling too long to put a modern city under siege only allows your enemy to a) get high value targets out via blending in with the fleeing civilian population, and b) lower your morale by lasting much longer than expected. Unless the rebels are deep in the streets of Tripoli, forcing Ghaddafi’s men to come out and shoot at them, they’ll never know who the real pro-Gaddhafi are vs. their own supporters vs. unaligned civilians, and it’ll give Ghaddafi enough time to coordinate his efforts elsewhere. I suspect this is why they claim to have taken the airport as well, to minimize the chance of Ghaddafi escaping Libya in a burka. But only time will tell, for all we know the Tripoli government has the entire city booby-trapped.

  38. 38.

    eemom

    August 21, 2011 at 1:30 am

    @Frankensteinbeck: @Amir Khalid:

    heh. Can’t imagine why, but this thought just popped into my head: “Thank GOD it’s past toko-loko’s bedtime.”

  39. 39.

    Martin

    August 21, 2011 at 1:31 am

    @gocart mozart: Well, their goal is to do the investigatory reporting and they do a lot of quite good data gathering and access (I use their data/tools on TARP all the time) and to then take their results and push it out through existing publications, not unlike AP.

    So the tainted drywall investigation and reporting has been published fairly steadily in papers in the southeast, so it’s possible you’ve been reading their work for some time, but didn’t realize it.

    They’re really doing fantastic work, and getting better with each year. A friend of the family left the SD Union Tribune to take a job with them, one of their first hires, actually. But if you’re a real data geek, they’re awesome. The drywall piece actually has a google map mashup where you can drill in and see every individual home where tainted drywall was reported – what counties have the highest rates, what month had the most reports for that county, etc.

    Their first fracking story was published over 3 years ago. If you want to know how/who/when the bailout money went out and to who, and what’s been paid back and by who, and how much the government made and lost, they have it all and update it daily. They have tools to track every stimulus project in the country.

    Honestly, if people want investigative journalism, they’re a great place to start.

  40. 40.

    gocart mozart

    August 21, 2011 at 1:31 am

    Welcome Khalid

  41. 41.

    Yutsano

    August 21, 2011 at 1:32 am

    @eemom:

    Thank GOD it’s past toko-loko’s bedtime

    She sleeps? I thought she stays up early and often and constantly obsessing over this blog for any mere mention of her. I suspect pharmaceuticals are involved. Also.

  42. 42.

    Frankensteinbeck

    August 21, 2011 at 1:33 am

    @eemom:
    I was trying to avoid the elephant in the room. I suppose there’s no tiptoeing around her. But really, Amir’s been a breath of fresh air and highly informative.

  43. 43.

    Comrade Kevin

    August 21, 2011 at 1:41 am

    @Yutsano: on the old “Beavis and Butthead” show, someone once said, about Beavis: “That boy’s not right in the head, is he?” Seems appropriate.

  44. 44.

    gocart mozart

    August 21, 2011 at 1:42 am

    @Amir Khalid:
    May I ask for your thought on Syria: Worst and best case scenarios?

  45. 45.

    Amir Khalid

    August 21, 2011 at 1:43 am

    (Blush) I’m glad the Balloon Juice commentariat feels I bring something to the party. Thanks for the kind words.

  46. 46.

    Villago Delenda Est

    August 21, 2011 at 1:46 am

    @Amir Khalid:

    Oh, you most certainly bring something to the party, and it’s a good thing.

  47. 47.

    Yutsano

    August 21, 2011 at 1:51 am

    @Amir Khalid: Your opinion is indeed valued. As well as the witty banter.

  48. 48.

    gocart mozart

    August 21, 2011 at 1:54 am

    Here are 2 of the 13 members of the council which I find interesting.

    http://www.ntclibya.org/english/council-members/
    3. Mr. Fatih Turbel (Youth)
    Mr. Turbel has a BA in law from the Gar Yunis University in Benghazi and represented the families of the 1996 Abu Salim massacre. Mr. Turbel is a human rights activist and was arrested on 15th February 2011 during the first street protests in Libya. As a member of the NTC, he is responsible for representing Youth.
    ————————————————————————————————————————————–
    4. Mr. Zubeir Ahmed El-Sharif (Political Prisoners)
    One of Libya’s longest serving political prisoners, Mr. El-Sharif was arrested in 1973 for conspiracy and sentenced to 31 years in prison. He graduated from the Military Academy of Iraq in 1958 and as a member of the NTC is currently responsible for representing political prisoners.

  49. 49.

    Amir Khalid

    August 21, 2011 at 2:04 am

    @gocart mozart:
    Well, I still need to study up a bit on what’s been happening there. But it seems to me that Bashir Al-Assad isn’t going to leave town peacefully. He’s president for life like his daddy before him, and it would disgrace the family honor if he did.

    As far as I know, there hasn’t been a Libya-like situation with military units defecting to join a rebel force. So the capacity to chase him put of town might well not be there, even if the UNSC intervenes again to prevent civilian casualties. And intervening in Libya has stretched international military capacity pretty thin as it is, so I don’t know if the UN can do that.

    Libya is turning out surprisingly well, touch wood. Egypt is still in the balance; things depend on how democratic the military wants to be this time around. Even if the passengers are getting louder in the back seat, it’s still them driving that car. Syria — well, I see a lot that could still go wrong.

  50. 50.

    gocart mozart

    August 21, 2011 at 2:18 am

    @Amir Khalid:
    Thanks for your response. I fear a clusterf*ck also. If I can pick your brain on the Libyan Council? I have been looking at their website and I find it encouraging. Lots of lawyers OMG! I have a strange thought, I would prefer most of them to the U.S.’s “Tea Party” caucus in congress. But what do I know.

  51. 51.

    Amir Khalid

    August 21, 2011 at 2:22 am

    @gocart mozart:
    I know less about the Libyan council than you do.

  52. 52.

    AA+ Bonds

    August 21, 2011 at 2:34 am

    I now believe America is fully prepared to spread its freedoms across the world in the fight against brutal dictators and terrorists. Let our bombs drop, our depleted uranium munitions find their homes in the skulls of children, but kindly, ever so kindly!

    Excelsior!

  53. 53.

    gocart mozart

    August 21, 2011 at 2:35 am

    Interesting that the longest running and most experienced protest movement, the Iranian one, is relatively quite. Biding its time and waiting to see how everything pans out I presume. They also have the toughest nut to crack I think. Thank God we don’t have a cowboy in the Whitehouse to screw things up.

  54. 54.

    AA+ Bonds

    August 21, 2011 at 2:37 am

    @Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):

    My blog is all jokes about jacking off and abortion and fake Powerpoint presentations referencing shitty 1990s pop culture, true story. I keep politics away from dancing.

  55. 55.

    Yutsano

    August 21, 2011 at 2:40 am

    @gocart mozart: After the Ahmadinejad vote protest suppression they’re opting to lie low. There also may indeed be things happening we are not aware of. You’re right in that Iran will be very difficult to change because of the Revolutionary Guard, but now everyone in Iran knows the revolution of 1979 is a failure. Another one is coming. But we can’t force it.

  56. 56.

    AA+ Bonds

    August 21, 2011 at 2:42 am

    I’m pretty much Iran.

  57. 57.

    Big Momm

    August 21, 2011 at 2:47 am

    @gocart mozart: Syria’s fall will be the turning point. Or the next presidential election, in 2013. Remember, these are the people who invented backgammon, and their last revolution in 1979 left many with a bitter taste in their mouths. The long game is where it’s at.

    Iran is most similar to Syria in how it’ll play out, minus the sectarian divisions. The middle class is under a lot of stress, but wants to avoid bloody fighting, so is willing to put up with a bit more of the government. The professional military might take the protestors’ side, but there are enough government-sponsored militias and intelligence agencies to counterbalance that. It’ll all come down to how long oil prices remain high, mitigating the depressed economy somewhat, and whether we have any random exogenous events.

  58. 58.

    Danny

    August 21, 2011 at 3:04 am

    I think the Libya skeptics on this site (e.g. John) and elsewhere (e.g. Kevin Drum) absolutely deserve some criticism – not because it now looks like the rebels are winning, but because their case against Libya from the start has lacked any principled position on what our foreign policy ought to look like, how the international community should work and when we should intervene abroad or participate in interventions. It’s never risen above gratuitous carping, pessimism and second-guessing – committing to nothing, prescribing nothing and requiring nothing of Mssr Cole, Drum et al.

    The position of the Obama administration is clear, and it’s the same position that Kerry supported in his 2004 candidacy: Barring retaliating attacks on the U.S. and U.S. lives, there need to be reasonable global consensus when the U.S. participates in global interventions, and such interventions should be decided and carried out through the U.N. framework in cooperation with a broad coalition of global partners. There must be reasonable global agreement that humanitarian or security concerns warrants international intervention. The U.S. making unilateral decisions and going it alone can never have the same legitimacy as decisions that are truly collective in nature and are executed with shared responsibility.

    Putting aside how Libya will end up, this intervention has been pretty much a textbook case of how the global community is supposed to work and act and of what the benefits are to that approach, especially w/r/t legitimacy. As Amir Khalid said: this has never been about Mmurica unilaterally deciding to “liberate” the Arubs from themselves, this has been a case of Libyans trying to grab the right to determine their own fate, an autocrat that responded by sending jet fighters and tanks on peaceful protesters and the global community making a collective decision to intervene in support of the Libyans themselves.

    There are principled positions that Cole, Drum, etc could have staked out on Libya: e.g. positions of Non-Interventionism or Pacifism, or some kind of rule of thumbs for when we should participate in hostilities on foreign soil.

    But neither has ever come close to doing that. I’m still not at all clear about what Cole’s position on Libya is supposed to be, except that he’s tired of wars and after supporting Iraq II without much thinking it through, he’s now opposing Libya without having much having thought it through. The only thing that changed between then and now was his gut feeling. Well gut feelings lack judgement – that ought to be the key takeaway from Iraq II.

    Now, a majority of americans shared Cole’s gut feelings – both on Iraq II and on Libya. In 2003 we wanted to kick some f-cking ass and in 2011 we are tired of wars. In that sense the Libya skeptics on the left are only representing public sentiment. But guys like Cole and Drum are in a position to influence others and with powers come responsibilities to think your positions through a bit.

    Even if Libya had turned out to be a complete clusterf-ck it would have still been the case that it was a collective decision by the global community, and because intervention was limited to air support and carried out by a broad coalition there would have been a limited, collective ownership of the outfall. Now that it looks like it may turn out fairly good, there will be shared credit and above all this will be about Libyans grabbing their country for themselves – exactly as it should be. That is why this is smart foreign policy, and a “good” war – if there are any good wars.

  59. 59.

    karen marie

    August 21, 2011 at 3:07 am

    I learned not too long ago that Quadaffi had built a man-made underground river (“GRM”/Great Man-made River) to bring water from a huge aquifer in southwestern Libya to Tripoli and other areas. It’s an amazing project.

    In late July NATO apparently bombed the factory making the giant concrete pipes but hasn’t yet targeted the GMR itself. According to the second link, 70% of Libyans depend on water delivered through the GMR.

  60. 60.

    Amir Khalid

    August 21, 2011 at 3:09 am

    @gocart mozart:
    It might be that what Iranians really want is a re-liberalization of their society, not so much to depose the ayatollahs. They don’t have a problem with the ayatollahs being in charge of religion. But those old guys are too autocratic in power. And as a closed hierarchy of conservative privileged men, they don’t provide the kind of forward-thinking and democratic leadership that Iran needs and wants.

    The 1979 revolution went wrong in handing so much power to the ayatollahs largely because of its symbolic figure Khomeini’s personal standing. It didn’t help that the post-Shah lay government was so weak.

  61. 61.

    gocart mozart

    August 21, 2011 at 3:12 am

    @AA+ Bonds:

    I’m pretty much Iran.

    You should Iran farther away.

  62. 62.

    karen marie

    August 21, 2011 at 3:13 am

    @eemom: And massive amounts of water too.

  63. 63.

    gocart mozart

    August 21, 2011 at 3:18 am

    @Danny:
    Well said Danny. + elevety!

  64. 64.

    gocart mozart

    August 21, 2011 at 3:38 am

    @karen marie:
    From your second link:

    What (it seems) Happened
    The widest-run article was by AP (it’s what USA Today used, and also Canadian Business.com. While relating this war crime alleged against NATO, the article focuses on rebel demands that Gaddafi leave Libya and stand trial for his own alleged war crimes. If I felt the slightest confident the trial would be fair, by the way, I’d be urging him to go and get his name cleared of the charges.

    and also:

    Mathaba has learnt that the Leader of the Revolution sent a message on Friday to members of the UN Security Council who are not taking part in the aggression against Libya, notably Russia and China, regarding the NATO European terrorists targeting of the pipe factory of the great man made river in the city of Brega, where pipes are manufactured to compensate for damaged pipes of the river, the only source of drinking waters and irrigation for the people of Libya.

    and also too.

    Russia’s pre-eminent Pravda.ru website pulled no punches here:

    You need a better bullshit detector Karen. Just saying.

  65. 65.

    Caustic Logic

    August 21, 2011 at 5:28 am

    @ gocart mozart

    “You need a better bullshit detector Karen. Just saying.”

    Lol! Often the ones who say that are the most in need.

    The “over the mark” claims there are just that, and the one about false charges isn’t one of those. Witness al-Megrahi’s railroading for Lockerbie (see here, undeniable) and the record of all actual investigation so far on the alleged abuses of this war.

    African mercenaries
    rape charges
    bombing Tripoli or people nywhere
    again, mercenaries, video
    massacring unarmed protesters, video
    killing 130 soldiers who refused the above order
    sniping children
    dumping six executed soldiers in a well outside Qawalish
    dumping 30-34 civilian at a tree farm outside Qawalish
    purging 150 Tawerghans
    more coming…

    After looking at any of that, do you develop more ambiguity even? A bit of nuance to complicate the cartoon vision of ‘woo-hoo, Arab Spring good guys win freedom from the murdering tyrant?

  66. 66.

    Alex S.

    August 21, 2011 at 6:15 am

    @Caustic Logic:

    I don’t know why anyone would spend so much time on whitewashing the regime of Muammar Gaddafi, so I’ll just leave this here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_Berlin_discotheque_bombing
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTA_Flight_772

    It’s more than just Lockerbie.

  67. 67.

    gocart mozart

    August 21, 2011 at 6:15 am

    @Caustic Logic:
    Hmm, I seemed to have flushed out the proprietor of said blog.
    Sir, all of your above links are links to your own blog so I take them with a grain of salt. Can I ask you a question? Why do you take official statements by Qadaffi as more reliable than western journalist not named Pravda?

  68. 68.

    gocart mozart

    August 21, 2011 at 6:32 am

    A bit of nuance to complicate the cartoon vision of ‘woo-hoo, Arab Spring good guys win freedom from the murdering tyrant?

    Actually, my cartoon vision has 10,000 wascally wabbits twicken Elmer Fudd* into shootin’ that Kdaffy Duck using even cweverer caustic logic.

    * This is you, look it up.

  69. 69.

    Big Momm

    August 21, 2011 at 6:41 am

    Nice try, Muammar Ghaddafi.

    I’ll add this to Alex S’s links:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yvonne_Fletcher

  70. 70.

    Caustic Logic

    August 21, 2011 at 6:48 am

    Grains of salt are fine, but really, you don’t intend to look at the evidence presented, do you?

    @ Alex S.: Truth and trainspotting nerdiness, a powerful combo, is why I spend the time. Why does everyone else spend so much time avoiding these little details like whether protesters really were massacred, only chiming in to add their voice to the lynch mob?

    The UTA bombing investigation is fishy as hell too, by the way, and the LaBelle discotheque bombing, and the Yvonne Fletcher shooting, as well as our popular understanding of the Abu Salim prison massacre, for one internal crime. Hard-for-most-to-swallow-but-true epic demonization of a hated regime that didn’t play along.

    But unlike Lockerbie, I can’t prove any of these yet with detailed research I didn’t have time for when I got a bit sidetracked in February.

  71. 71.

    Caustic Logic

    August 21, 2011 at 6:58 am

    Big Momm, see above. Libyan thugs thinking they could get away with protester murder in central London with cameras rolling? And then goofing up, hitting the only lady cop there, only cop hit, only person killed, with a bullet track 60deg from horizontal, right shoulder to lower left side, from the 15degree first floor window behind her to the left? Just implausible as all hell. But the public was irate against Libya, and sanctions ensued…
    http://lockerbiedivide.blogspot.com/2011/03/discussion-of-yvonne-fletcher-shooting.html

    I don’t expect anyone here to snap out of the trance, by the way. It’s just worth a try.

    BTW, I use my own links for traffic, and because they’re among the best around (other than some typos and such), and they’re handy.

  72. 72.

    Alex S.

    August 21, 2011 at 7:22 am

    @Caustic Logic:

    Gaddafi could get away with a lot of things:
    http://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/17/weekinreview/the-world-qaddafi-plays-quietly-but-he-s-still-in-the-game.html

    Probably because of oil. And his reintroduction into international diplomacy by the Bush and Blair governments was nothing short of Twilight Zone material.

    Out of curiosity, what’s your opinion on the war between Chad and Libya? In my opinion, it was Gaddafi’s attempt to achieve hegemony in Africa and when he failed, he retaliated against France and the USA who assisted Chad. He continued to angle for hegemony through covert support of terrorism and african militias, and then through his idea of a United States of Africa. Somehow he always ended up protecting or supporting the worst possible dictators, he gave exile to Idi Amin and supported Charles Taylor of Liberia and the megalomaniac ’emperor’ of Central-Africa.

  73. 73.

    Caustic Logic

    August 21, 2011 at 7:27 am

    Oil money he had. They’re finally taking that now, along with everything else, again, after framing and demonizing the regime for decades.

    I don’t know much about the Chad war, who was backing Chad’s government at the time, etc. so no firm opinion. I’m sure whatever makes Gaddafi seem most sinister to you is the most accurate interpretation for you. And you’ll surely find experts who agree emphatically.

  74. 74.

    bob h

    August 21, 2011 at 7:53 am

    The Obama-Clinton philosophy of “leading from behind” in Libya, so much criticized by Republicans and foreign policy windbags, seems to have borne fruit. We got what we wanted without bombing the hell out of another Muslim country.

  75. 75.

    D

    August 21, 2011 at 8:58 am

    @Caustic: So wait, you claim to pretty much be THE contrarian expert on the regime and yet you, apparently, know next to nothing about fairly recent and highly influential historical events? Why should anyone take you as anything but a conspiracy nut when you can’t even do a proper causative analysis?

  76. 76.

    Frankensteinbeck

    August 21, 2011 at 9:00 am

    @Danny:
    Well said. John is very knee-jerk on two issues – war and civil rights, and so are a lot of commenters here. War is always bad, violations of civil rights are always bad, no investigation is made or arguments considered about whether the former is the lesser of two evils or the latter actually is a violation. Indeed, he admitted it on the civil rights issue. I have some sympathy for these positions, since both can be so horrible (there are no good wars, only wars that are less awful than not having one), but I prefer nuance. I’m afraid this is the only war thread I’ve seen so far that did not drown immediately in screaming fits from commenters.

  77. 77.

    Scott P.

    August 21, 2011 at 9:16 am

    @eemom:

    This is tribal warfare that’s been going on for centuries, and it ain’t going ANYWHERE now, Moomar or no Moomar.

    No it isn’t. Tribal ties in Libya are very weak, and the country has not historically been run on tribal lines. Don’t make the mistake of assuming all Arab countries are the same.

  78. 78.

    magurakurin

    August 21, 2011 at 9:31 am

    @Comrade Kevin:

    after you show me the one in which she defended the Administration after the owner of the blog and the rest of the gang bashed Obama on it endlessly. I guess I make a mistake to think that the people with the keys to this blog are somehow connected. Apparently not.

    whatever. the post by Danny above explains it far, far better than I ever could.

  79. 79.

    Shlemizel - was Alwhite

    August 21, 2011 at 9:32 am

    I thinks it is really sad that Al-Jazera has a better range of opinion and better world news than anything I can read here in the US. I learned to love the European papers in the run up to our illegal invasion of Iraq. They carried better work & completely exposed the lies being printed in the US with detailed analysis.

    The biggest reason we are so completely fucked is a large segment of our society is unwilling to do the hard part, thinking.

  80. 80.

    Omnes Omnibus

    August 21, 2011 at 9:43 am

    @Danny: I pretty much agree with everything you said there. I can get behind a foreign policy that supports and protects democratic development abroad. I an also comfortable with a policy that provides primarily diplomatic and logistical support for these efforts. I think US troop involvement should tend to be limited to situations where direct US interests are threatened. Libya does seem to me to be an example of how such a foreign policy could be carried out.

  81. 81.

    Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason

    August 21, 2011 at 10:10 am

    @Sam Houston: Run by the Scott Trust, eh?

    There was some talk about the Abell Foundation buying the Baltimore Sun from the @#$% Tribune Company, which utterly ruined the paper. I’d resubscribe if it happened.

    News as non-profit may be the only way journalism will work in the internet era. Especially since profit doesn’t seem be part of the business model now anyway.

  82. 82.

    karen marie

    August 21, 2011 at 10:46 am

    @gocart mozart: The quotes you pulled weren’t why I linked to the article. As I indicated, I learned not too long ago about the building of the GMR, and I thought it was an interesting and impressive fact about Libya.

    Curious as to whether it had been targeted by NATO, or others, I googled to see what I could find. While there were many apparently false reports about the GMR itself being bombed, I found the second article to which I linked which talked about the bombing of the factory and the reasons for it.

    But you just go ahead and believe what you want about my need for an improved bullshit detector.

  83. 83.

    Trakker

    August 21, 2011 at 11:57 am

    Imagine if the US had a newspaper that actually did investigative journalism and strove to keep people informed.

    But we do. I just read in the WaPost that Kim Kardashian is getting MARRIED this weekend! And the wedding will be filmed so it can be viewed later on various cable shows.

  84. 84.

    Caustic Logic

    August 21, 2011 at 9:01 pm

    @Big Momm

    “Nice try, Muammar Ghaddafi.”

    And the mask is pulled! I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn’t for you meddling kids!

Comments are closed.

Primary Sidebar

Recent Comments

  • OverTwistWillie on Saturday Morning Open Thread: Gradually, Then All At Once (Sep 23, 2023 @ 10:36am)
  • Geoduck on First President of the United States to Join a Picket Line (Sep 23, 2023 @ 10:34am)
  • zhena gogolia on Saturday Morning Open Thread: Gradually, Then All At Once (Sep 23, 2023 @ 10:28am)
  • eclare on Saturday Morning Open Thread: Gradually, Then All At Once (Sep 23, 2023 @ 10:28am)
  • OzarkHillbilly on Saturday Morning Open Thread: Gradually, Then All At Once (Sep 23, 2023 @ 10:26am)

🎈Keep Balloon Juice Ad Free

Become a Balloon Juice Patreon
Donate with Venmo, Zelle or PayPal

Balloon Juice Posts

View by Topic
View by Author
View by Month & Year
View by Past Author

Featuring

Medium Cool
Artists in Our Midst
Authors in Our Midst
We All Need A Little Kindness
What Has Biden Done for You Lately?

Balloon Juice Meetups!

All Meetups
Talk of Meetups – Meetup Planning

Fundraising 2023-24

Wis*Dems Supreme Court + SD-8

Calling All Jackals

Site Feedback
Nominate a Rotating Tag
Submit Photos to On the Road
Balloon Juice Mailing List Signup
Balloon Juice Anniversary (All Links)
Balloon Juice Anniversary (All Posts)

Twitter / Spoutible

Balloon Juice (Spoutible)
WaterGirl (Spoutible)
TaMara (Spoutible)
John Cole
DougJ (aka NYT Pitchbot)
Betty Cracker
Tom Levenson
TaMara
David Anderson
Major Major Major Major
ActualCitizensUnited

Join the Fight!

Join the Fight Signup Form
All Join the Fight Posts

Balloon Juice for Ukraine

Donate

Cole & Friends Learn Español

Introductory Post
Cole & Friends Learn Español

Site Footer

Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

  • Facebook
  • RSS
  • Twitter
  • YouTube
  • Comment Policy
  • Our Authors
  • Blogroll
  • Our Artists
  • Privacy Policy

Copyright © 2023 Dev Balloon Juice · All Rights Reserved · Powered by BizBudding Inc

Share this ArticleLike this article? Email it to a friend!

Email sent!