Most of Tripoli is occupied by rebel forces, there’s fighting at Gadaffi’s compound, Gadaffi is missing, and France is planning on hosting a meeting next week among NATO allies and the rebels to discuss Libya’s future. Al Jazeera live coverage is here, Guardian live coverage is here, and here’s the New York Times.
Reader Interactions
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Mark S.
Huh, is Gadaffi going to hide like Saddam did? I think if I were a dictator who looted billions from my country, I’d take exile at the first signs of trouble. You don’t rule with an iron fist for decades without acquiring a bunch of people who want to kill you.
Jager
Probably won’t be renting space for his tent from Trump anymore, then on the other hand
Lockewasright
Jeez! What could Obama have been thinking?! There’s no way we could possibly facilitate the removal of Gadhafi without boots on the ground and loss of american lives, right?
WereBear
So, 42 years of dictatorship… with a Hitler-in-the-bunker ending.
I know lots of people would take that deal.
Baud
@WereBear:
And the most awesome wardrobe ever!
magurakurin
If I could advise Moammar right now, I would totally tell him to go full on “Butch and Sundance” out the front door. I mean, it would really seal his place in history. A lot better than Saddam being pulled out of the rat hole. Although Saddam did go to gallows full of attitude and basically told his executions to go fuck themselves. Hitler really took the cowards way out.
Barry
@Mark S.: “You don’t rule with an iron fist for decades without acquiring a bunch of people who want to kill you.”
You also don’t kill your way to the top, and survive a lot of trouble on your way to the top. And once you’re at the top in a system like that, there’s always people below you who’d like a Klingon promotion.
People like that don’t resign.
Linnaeus
@Lockewasright:
Certainly the rebels’ march into Tripoli is happening much faster than I (and others) thought it would. That said, you can’t blame people for at least considering that greater intervention was a distinct possibility and being wary of that possibility.
befuggled
@Mark S.: Ask Somoza about the potential problems with lots of people wanting to kill you and going into exile.
NonyNony
@Mark S.:
If I were a dictator who looted billions and killed lots of people to climb to and maintain power, I think I’d have a couple of hidey-holes set up in foreign countries to bolt to when the inevitable happened.
Of course, part of being the kind of guy that climbs up the corpses of his enemies to rise to power is that you usually aren’t the kind of guy who thinks you can fail. It’s part of the psychology. But if it were me I’d have a nice fake ID for myself all set and ready to go – maybe a nice retired teacher in Florida. Grow out a beard, get myself some colored contacts, change out of the military uniform and into some khakis and Hawaiian shirts and “retire” to a condo in Florida or something.
I’d probably never get the opportunity though – I’m not the “rise through the ranks on the corpses of my enemies” type – that’s why I never went into management.
Samara Morgan
i changed my mind.
i think Algeria will be next, not Syria.
And note to Yutsano ….there are Sufis there too!
Here is my personal favorite from the war with the French.
He is often used as an example of a militant Sufi.
ahh those wacky colonialists.
allus trying to school the poor ignorant brown peoples for their own good.
i like to think of Muqtada al-Sadr as a modern day al-Qadir.
jonas
@NonyNony: I think if you’re a dictator period, you have an enormous ego and a massive sense of your own importance and invulnerability. I doubt they even consider for a moment what they would do if a popular uprising overthrew them.
Hill Dweller
McCain and Graham release a joint statement which, among other things, criticizes Obama for not accomplishing this quicker. I wish I was joking.
arguingwithsignposts
@Hill Dweller: What, Lieberman wasn’t available to add his weight to the matter? Guess it didn’t involve Israel.
Linnaeus
@Hill Dweller:
Wow. That’s pretty ridiculous.
Amir Khalid
@Hill Dweller:
That does sound like some mighty fine stupidity. I’d love to sample the whole thing. Linky?
Danny
@Linnaeus:
Fair enough. But boots on the ground would never have happened without a new UNSC resolution and us (or France, or the UK), you know, deciding to do so. And most likely it couldn’t happen without the Libyan rebels asking for it and the Arab League supporting it. So, worrying about it: sure, we should. Considering it likely, or even bound to happen: unwarranted.
Hill Dweller
Woodrowfan
on “Crooks and Liars” yesterday (a blog I really like) many of the commentators were in full “it’s a war for oil!” “NWO!” “They’re doing this to hurt Hugo Chavez!” etc, etc. cripes
Samara Morgan
@arguingwithsignposts: israel is next month.
Danny
@jsfox:
Note how those rats say nothing about them (or McCain at least) demanding Mmurican boots on the ground. Presumably, that wouldn’t poll well. “Due to the failure of the United States to employ the full weight of our airpower“, spare me. Second guessing: world record attempt.
Max Power
@Hill Dweller:
Funny, in 2009 McCain was praising his visit to Libya and his time spent with Qaddafi. The guy is such a schmuck.
Danny
New Emobagger meme: the success of the Libya approach was all thanks to Hillary steamrolling Obummer and we’ve all been for it since day one.
Calling it.
suzanne
@NonyNony:
Concur.
My mother had a coworker that disappeared one day. Turned out her father was a Nazi, a commandant of a concentration camp, who had lived on Long Island for forty years after the war, working as a surveyor. Dude made it forty years before he was found and forcibly deported.
But these people are nothing if not grandiose.
Amir Khalid
@jsfox:
Thanks for the link.
Yep, that’s grade A stupid all right. Apparently McCain and Graham don’t remember the fuss their own party made over Obama waging war without Congress’ authorization by sending in US air power in the first place. Or that this has been mostly a ground war. And these two geniuses are supposed to have a military background.
By the way, I can never remember: Is Graham the boyfriend, or is it Lieberman?
marv
I remember my favorite modern fictional character, Lucas Davenport, beating the snot out of a horrible 17-year-old pimp and getting in trouble with his backstabbing boss about being too violent and Davenport saying, “It wasn’t too much or too little. It was just right.” Why can’t people admit in this case that Obama did it just right, in the face of opposition from both right and left, some of it even principled? It’s the Libyans’ revolution that wouldn’t have happened without some help. What happens from here on out is on them – good or bad. How it can be worse that what they’ve had, I can’t imagine, but maybe they’re as stupid about politics as we are. How the long-term result can really be a threat to us – come on, we’ve got enough real problems already to worry about.
Davis X. Machina
@Danny: Too late.
hueyplong
A more petty and mendacious press release can scarcely be imagined.
“Heartiest congratulations to everyone but our President, who should have had the foresight to tweak the nature of our involvement to do something that we ourselves did not suggest/demand at the time.”
fhtagn
There seems to be a certain lack of those BJers who constantly assured us that this intervention was bound to be a disaster and that Obama was Dubya II. Quite a few apologies owed by the nay-sayers and doom-criers to those they denounced and ridiculed. Not that they’ll have the balls to do it.
Anya
Occupied, mistermix? Are they some sort of foreign troop?
Danny
@Davis X. Machina:
Damn. Pretty shameless, I’d say…
soonergrunt
@Amir Khalid:
Graham’s the boyfriend, but that’s only because he’s from the right side of the tracks. Lieberman thinks them and acts like them, but he’ll never be one of them because of his background and the fact that he’s so jewey. You can’t take him to the country club because the membership committee would talk.
hueyplong
Every time I see Lieberman, I think of Pierre Laval.
negative 1
@Linnaeus: You’re right. But what people can be blamed for is saying “he’s lying, this is what Obama is really going to do”, and then criticizing him for something that never really happened (but they just knew he was going to). Do you think that anyone will say “gee I was wrong”. My bet? They double down and call this illegal and a war crime.
Kane
‘Libya will go down in history as the anti-Iraq’
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44224691/
That’s gonna sting the Bushies and the neocons.
Dennis SGMM
@fhtagn:
There seems to be a certain lack of understanding on your part that the dust hasn’t settled yet. Libya may trade one strong man for another. That potential existed from the outset. Further, I don’t recall anyone stating that this would absolutely end in disaster. What I do recall is that there are some of us who are apprehensive about intervening in someone else’s civil war and others who are still uncomfortable with the Executive going to war without consulting Congress.
Ask yourself this; If Bush had done the same thing and then dismissed the bombing as “not hostilities” would you still be yelling “Fuck yeah!”?
Anya
@Danny: A warning should be in order that a HuffPo link is coming, but yeah, very shameful. PUMAs are so despicable, they will not rest till they destroy Obama’s presidency.
Danny
@Anya:
Sorry about the stealth HuffPo link. :)
Alex S.
@Hill Dweller:
How stupid… these guys have NO credibility. And yet, they’re going to be on Meet The Press next week.
Funny how the political landscape of the Middle East changes during Obama’s term. It’s what the Neoconservatives wished for and now it happens without them. And so, the special relationship with Israel is coming to an end. Maybe this is what the Neoconservatives feared: change in the Middle East against Israel’s wishes, so they rather want to cause and manipulate revolutions instead of merely supporting them when they occur. This subtle change is another consequence of Obama’s policy.
Now it’s on to Syria and I have a bad feeling about this. It was Dick Cheney’s next target. It’s a neighbor of Israel. Hezbollah has got some influence there.
fhtagn
@Dennis SGMM:
If the intervention removes Qaddafi, I will do what I (and various others vilified by you and your fellow-travellers) thought it would do and wanted it to do. But I don’t expect you to have the intellectual honesty to face this without attempting to throw in a few rhetorical irrelevancies to hide the fact that you were wrong about this from day one.
Linnaeus
@Dennis SGMM:
Right, the endgame of this hasn’t been played out yet. I was apprehensive about this intervention myself, but the rebels have advanced faster than I thought they would. I wasn’t convinced that the situation would end in disaster, nor did I think that this was equivalent to what Bush did in Iraq, but I had my doubts about what would happen. It’s not mutually exclusive to point out that 1) Libya is not Iraq and 2) things could have gone (and still could go) wrong.
Ramiah Ariya
So the former colonial masters all get together and decide an African country’s “future”. I am sure Libya will be paying reparations and oil contracts for a long time to France, Britain and the US.
Ramiah Ariya
Just so we know, in terms of Human Development Index, Libya was 53 out of 169. Far above the regional average; and really one of the best countries in Africa to live in. It had the lowest income inequality in Africa.
Next time, try bringing democracy to China.
Danny
@Dennis SGMM:
Sure, we don’t know how Libya will end up. But I’d still venture that the Obama admin has handled Libya exactly right because: there’s UN sponsorship, shared stakes and shared risk, and Libyan ownership of their own future. IOW, everything that was done wrong in Iraq was done right in Libya.
This:
Is deceptive. The argument was that it did not legally qualify as “hostilities” as defined by the War Powers act, IOW the administration argued that the War Powers act was never designed to apply to the role we’ve had in Libya (post the first 30 days).
Ramiah Ariya
It is nice to see that all it takes is a Democratic president for a lot of progressives to fall in line with drone attacks and freedom bombs.
magurakurin
@Ramiah Ariya:
or not.
you know, there are a lot of people who should just say fuck it and start smoking crack 24/7. Living life without any sort of hope that things will improve or even admit the possibility that they can improve isn’t much fun. There’s a lot of shitty stuff in the world. Always has been. But there are rays of good and hope as well. In the long run, as was famously said, we’re all dead anyway, so why not live life holding on to the hope that things can get better.
Max Power
Ahhh, the Qaddafi apologists have entered the room, folks.
Ramiah Ariya
@Danny: Stop treating this like some kind of internal discussion between liberals, Obama supporters, progressives, conservatives and so on. You are a nation that attacked Iraq without any provocation and reelected a president whom you KNEW lied to you.
Your nation should sit on the sidelines for the next 50 years while adults have a discussion.
This is not an internal debate. It is an international shame that your nation was not made to pay for the Iraq war.
Btw, all the progressive causes you guys cherish – will ALL fall to the wayside as long as you support killing people abroad while championing “progressive” causes locally. From media propaganda to the bulk of your defense spending – everything will continue to screw domestic policy.
Killing brown people elsewhere is not consequence free.
Max Power
@Ramiah Ariya:
It’s nice to see that all it takes is a black Democratic president to fall in line Qaddafi’s idea of paradise.
Danny
@Ramiah Ariya:
Too bad the ungrateful Libyan people opted to rise in rebellion against their benevolent ruler, then, right? I recommend Juan Cole’s Top Ten Myths about the Libya War, especially myths #1 and #2.
General Stuck
@Danny:
Thank you. I had a response to Dennis typed up, but you say it better, so I will just say “This”
But will add that Obama did consult congress early on with his UN dealings on the Libya matter, and the Senate gave a thumbs up with a SoS vote, for continuing working through the UN. Which Obama has done, by the numbers, from day one.
Something Bush didn’t do in Iraq, for the required second UN sec council vote. So they broke that covenant, and their word, and invaded a country where there was no acute genocidal behavior going on.
Nethead Jay
@Amir Khalid:
It’s a 3-way. A horrible, horrible one…
Danny
@Ramiah Ariya:
Perhaps you got a point re: Iraq, but Libya is a UN intervention supporting a domestic uprising. The French, the UK, Quatar, UAE, Sweden, Denmark and Norway seem to also be out there “killing brown people”, as we speak, with the blessing of the Arab League.
Ghaddafi was in the process of murdering his own people in order to cling to power, and you seem to already be pretty much on the record as an apologist of Ghaddafi’s regime. So what moral authority do you have on anything, really?
jsfox
@Ramiah Ariya: You really should get more familiar with the Libyan oil sector before commenting. Had this been about oil the obvious move for the West would have been run to Gaddafi’s side not the rebels. Why? Libya’s oil exports where already integrated into the world market and was running quite smoothly under Gaddafi.
Next there are no oil contracts to divvy up. And please tell me who is talking about reparations? That is beside’s you.
Bitch if you must, but do try and gets some facts first and don’t go making shit-up in a weak attempt to score points.
Ramiah Ariya
@Danny – I think my moral authority is that I am not the citizen of a country that just launched multiple murderous wars without any provocation. Your country did that – and you should think about why. Fix your democratic processes first, before killing other people.
Apologist for Gadhafi? How did you pick that up? If you can paint a fairly prosperous ME nation, with a high HDI, as some kind of monster regime, then you could do that with any country – that is my point. After all, when did elections stop your country from characterising someone as a dictator?
The truth is your countrymen should have STOPPED your leaders from being engaged in ANY war at all in the foreseeable future – given that your country has a tradition of racism and killing other people to fund your defense agencies.
Ramiah Ariya
@jsfox – you could make the same oil argument about Iraq. After all, we all know now that oil was never a reason for the Iraq war, right?
Ramiah Ariya
The idea that the United States, of all the countries in the world, should be attacking “murderous dictators” is hilarious.
Odie Hugh Manatee
No matter what Obama does it’s going to be wrong, too soon, too late, too much, not enough and so on. That’s why I’m going to vote for the guy again in 2012.
He is everything to everyone.
Linda Featheringill
@Danny: #49
Juan Cole’s comments on the Libyan revolution are excellent. Thanks for the referral.
[I’d still like to see some of his comments on this blog.]
Ramiah Ariya
@jsfox – You do know that Iraq is compensating American companies and the USA for the Iraq war, right? That is not even controversial.
Mnemosyne
@Ramiah Ariya:
Probably from your very next paragraph:
Yep, Gadhafi was just a normal president of a ME country that the West busted in and overthrew for no reason at all. It’s not like his own people wanted him gone and have been fighting and dying to get rid of him for months — nope, musta been some of those outside agitators I keep hearing about. Probably the whole thing was a CIA operation and all of the “rebels” are really US operatives, amirite?
soonergrunt
@Odie Hugh Manatee: OHM FTW!
jsfox
@Ramiah Ariya: So wait let me see if I get your logic here. Because Iraq may well have been about the oil, all interventions where a country exports oil is about the oil. That about cover it? No matter that the two countries were vastly different in terms of oil exports, who controlled them and the amount flowing out of each country at the beginning of the conflict.
Danny
@Ramiah Ariya:
Not being a US citizen inoculates you from being a morally bankrupt moron? No.
I opposed Iraqi Freedom from the start, and that’s the only war that your description applies to (IOW Afghanistan was not unprovoked; Libya is a domestic uprising to which a global coalition is lending air support under a UNSC resolution).
You certainly sound like you like Ghaddafi’s Libya, and you seem to be implying that Ghaddafi’s Libya is/was a democracy? Anyhow, here’s Juan Cole on Ghaddafi:
Back to you:
Duly noted, but I disagree. I think the US should continue participating in humanitarian interventions within the UN framework, when there’s consensus in the global community that intervention is warranted and our help is needed.
soonergrunt
Ramiah’s problem is the skin color of the “agressor” leaving out the fact that we’re not the aggressor here.
Wonder what his/her position on Indian occupation of the Tamil region is.
Ramiah Ariya
@Mnemosyne – That Libya was fairly prosperous is a fact.
And yes, this is the first time in the world that colonial powers have used an internal civil war, in what happens to be an oil-rich nation. I am sure history reveals that.
But, let us first discuss who you are an apologist for – you are an apologist for a president who has unleashed drone attacks on multiple Muslim countries in the world that have killed hundreds of innocents. In fact, I am willing to bet that in the past 41 years that Gadhafi has been in power, the presidents of the United States have killed much more innocents around the world than he ever did.
Fix your messed up country first.
chopper
@Ramiah Ariya:
and what country are you a citizen of? i’m sure it’s leadership and history is clean as a whistle.
Ramiah Ariya
@sonnergrunt – what Tamil region? I am a Tamil myself.
Ramiah Ariya
@chopper – nope, but they are not the threat to global peace that you are.
Stillwater
@fhtagn: If the intervention removes Qaddafi,
You have to clearly remember one thing here: when this all began, it was the skeptics who said that the ‘save the protestors/no fly zone’ action logically entailed removing Qdfy, a claim that many in the pro-intervention crowd strenuously denied.
chopper
@Danny:
indeed, the US should continue to participate in practical humanitarian interventions under UN control, precisely because we have such a history of assholish unilateral behaviour. surely we have penance to make, but sitting on the sidelines while dictators attempt to butcher democratic uprisings aint the way to do it.
soonergrunt
@chopper: Yes, he or she is from the completely innocent India.
But of course, there’s Sri Lanka, the Kashmir, various wars with Pakistan and border engagements with China, and of course the absolutely wonderful treatment of Sikhs, Muslims, Tamil, and other minorities within India itself.
So, umm, maybe not so much?
Ramiah Ariya
@Danny – Juan Cole’s comments on crony capitalism in Libya make me laugh. That is the story of a 100 countries around the world – INCLUDING, in some ways the USA. Nepotism and crony capitalism are rampant in your own Congress and Defense industry.
But this is the problem – all that it takes is a bunch of articles for half the American populace to jump on board to any freedom bombs around the world – EXCEPT someone your own size. I suggest trying to bomb Russia or China next.
chopper
@Ramiah Ariya:
so, what country are you a citizen of? i’d like to personally judge you guilty of it’s past behaviour.
catclub
When Bush went on vacation, the WTC towers fell.
When Obama went on vacation, Muammar Gadhafi fell.
Ramiah Ariya
@soonergrunt – and that is precisely why I would never support an Indian attack on some middle eastern nation about which I know nothing.
You, on the other hand….
chopper
@Ramiah Ariya:
tamil? i guess you have a lot to answer for. how many died in the sri lankan civil war, 100,000? how many terrorist attacks are the tigers responsible for?
clean you own house before you criticize others.
Ramiah Ariya
@chopper – ah, past behavior. You do remember you are STILL in the humanitarian intervention in Iraq, don’t you? And Somalia; And Yemen; And Pakistan.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@soonergrunt:
lol
I’m just sitting back and watching the anti-Obama people bitch endlessly about him and that line occurred to me.
He really is their everything…lol!
Ramiah Ariya
@chopper – what are you talking about? I am Indian Tamil. Not a Sri Lankan Tamil.
Anyway, this will all be nice arguments, if your nation can spend at least one decade; let me make it better – under at least ONE president’s term without launching freedom bombs.
But, alas, freedom tugs your nation’s hearts. Someone got to die for it.
Danny
Fair point, if you also concede that the intended target of those drone strikes are guys with the premeditated M.O. of blowing up hundreds of innocent muslims.
Sure, but:
a) Obama is no more responsible for the actions of Richard Nixon and Lyndon B. Johnson than Andrea Merkel is for the actions of Adolf Hitler.
b) Gaddafi has never been in control of the US army, the US Nuclear weapons stockpile or the US federal budget – so that’s not really a fair comparison, is it?
Danny
@chopper:
Yes, exactly.
chopper
@Ramiah Ariya:
oh, so on one hand, the US’s past behaviour matters, as our leadership is responsible for “more deaths in the last 41 years than gaddhafi”. but your peoples’ past behaviour is just in the past, it’s all clean now that the tigers were officially defeated 2 years ago. that’s a lifetime!
child soldiers, ethnic cleansing, suicide bombings, none of that matters anymore. history is history, except for americans.
Danny
@Ramiah Ariya:
Iraq wasnt a humanitarian intervention: it was Dubya and the Neocons taking out a guy that they felt talked to much smack at them and removing a threat to Israel, and opting to lie about it to pretty much everyone.
The Dangerman
@Hill Dweller:
I thought politics stopped at the waters edge?
Can you imagine if Boxer had pulled a stunt like this when Iraq was liberated?
Ramiah Ariya
@Danny – I don’t particularly care about the name of the “current” president – why should I? Foreign Policy in the USA does not really depend a lot on the party of the president. I agree that domestic policy does. But that is the compromise that people have made – they have tacitly made a pact that the defense industry can pretty much do what they want; and attack or demonize whoever they want to. All that progressives truly want is peace on the domestic front.
After all, the United States IS excellently run domestically.
But, it does not work that way, does it? The media propaganda that suffuses foreign policy slowly seeps into domestic coverage. The companies you empower abroad, slowly spread their policies in the USA.
This is why it never makes sense for progressives to support any American adventures abroad. You are not the ideal spokesperson of democracy. Quit that fantasy about humanitarian interventions.
I would suggest more “isolation” – may be come down from 700 bases to 600?
jsfox
@Ramiah Ariya: US companies. really? Most of the oil contracts awarded by the Iraqi government went to countries that opposed the war.
Time
Once again, facts over fiction makes for a stronger argument. Also try not to conflate one intervention with another. Especially when one was carried out under a different administration with far different priorities and goals.
chopper
@Ramiah Ariya:
i’m not a republican or a politician either. i just happen to be of the same group, americans. must have been interesting that india supported the tigers.
Danny
@Ramiah Ariya:
Well I think the point was that Libyas scoring fairly high HDI is not that impressive considering their oil resources, and it’s not an indication of Gaddafi somehow being a benevolent dictator, which you implied, because that isnt true.
But all that’s ultimately irrelevant, because it has never been the case that someone invaded Libya on the pretext that they were unsatisfied with the level of corruption or Libyas scoring on the HDI. What was the case was that the citizens of Libya rose up in peaceful opposition to Gaddafi, because they didn’t like him, and he then opted to respond by attacking them with jet fighters and tanks.
Ramiah Ariya
@chopper – for the freaking last time, I am not a Sri Lankan Tamil, dude.
But see how uninformed you turn out to be about our region? Why do you think that is better when it comes to the ME? Ultimately this is the way that consent is manufactured in the USA – all that it requires is the well-oiled propaganda machine to step in an confuse the hell out of people.
Here is a great idea – the NEXT time you are asked to engage yourself in a war against some new “tyrant” in a country whose situation you KNOW nothing about – why not NOT bomb it?
How about that? Why is bombing the default action?
chopper
@Ramiah Ariya:
you lump americans all together, i’ll do the same to you. feels bad, doesn’t it? hey, you assholes are all the same!
chopper
well, NATO could have stepped back and not bombed any of gaddhafi’s forces. gaddhafi’s forces would have won in a long-term protracted civil war, and a lot more civilians would have died. gaddhafi would likely have gone on a full-on spree.
instead, nato sent bombers and targeted the dude’s military, making it so the opposition had a chance to take the country. and they have so far.
do you think another form of military intervention would have done better? do you think no military intervention at all would have meant fewer deaths?
from what i can tell, you seem more pissed about the fact that the opposition is winning than anything else.
Danny
@Ramiah Ariya:
Well, I don’t agree at all. I don’t know if there’s much more to say about it. But you’ve stated your opinion that isolationism or non-interventionism is the policy that the US ought to pursue henceforth. That’s a reasonable opinion, on which reasonable people can disagree.
Your whitewashing of Gaddafi and your mischaracterizations of the UN intervention in Libya are flat out false, though. And morally bankrupt, imho.
Ramiah Ariya
I have written about this before – the primary confusion for Americans, it seems to me, is misunderstanding the role of liberation struggles such as “liberating” from a dictator.
While that certainly is an area that the UN can benefit from, it is balanced by the OTHER major struggle of modern times – the fight against colonialism. In THAT fight, countries such as the USA or Britain or France have always been on the wrong side.
Therefore, whenever someone jumps up and points at some country and yells “dictator, genocide” think about the following three things:
1. There have been countries which have been bombed to stone age in the name of supporting a freedom struggle or freedom from oppression (Vietnam, Iraq come to mind). Are ANY of the arguments you see in the media around you THIS time DIFFERENT from the arguments used in that time?
2. Are there actual instances AFTER the Second World War, in which your country has actually caused “liberation” from a dictator? Through bombs?
3. After the Second World War, atleast 60 or 70 countries in the world achieved independence from their colonial powers. Did ANY of them require freedom bombs from the USA to help them along?
Ramiah Ariya
@chopper – I don’t remember lumping Americans together. I just pointed out that the people writing in this forum, progressives, themselves are no different from conservatives. That does not apply to all Americans.
And Sri Lanka is a different country. That would be like me blaming you for the Falklands war.
soonergrunt
@Danny: but his argument cannot cannot stand on this topic without the whitewashing you just mentioned.
Also too is the whitewashing he is engaging in by painting all Americans with the same brush. And while that’s an intellectual fallacy in which damn near everyone engages when speaking about other cultures of which they have limited to no experience, it is particularly ironic when he preaches on THIS board about American interventionism.
Danny
@Ramiah Ariya:
You would have a point if someone had opted to invade Libya under the pretext that Gaddafi was “teh Dictator and a BAD MAN”. See Iraq, the invasion of. But that wasn’t the bleeding case here. It was Libyans rising up in peaceful opposition against a dictator that they didn’t like, and the global community reacting to events set in motion by others.
Is it a feature of your conception of the anti-colonial struggle that no population is allowed to rise up against an unpopular leader if they happen to live in an old colony? Then you are doing anti-colonialism wrong, buddy.
Ramiah Ariya
@soonergrunt – I am not painting all Americans with the same brush. I am just pointing out that progressives themselves will support a war of choice, just as conservatives do. That, to me, shows a certain fragility in the American political life. Others have pointed this out, after all. The run-up to the war in Libya or the attacks in Yemen or the drone attacks in Pakistan are always filled with the same KIND of stories, which, surprisingly, seem enough to convince even progressives. That is pretty shocking. It means that, overall, progressives do buy into certain narratives built up in the media. That is not good for anyone.
Villago Delenda Est
@NonyNony:
Yeah, that seems sensible to me, too.
The thing is, once you have that kind of money and power…things change. What was once a sensible scenario becomes, over time, to be unthinkable.
Hence the bunker mentality.
Also, at the last minute, Steiner will arrive with the cavalry (in King Tigers) to save the day!
chopper
@Ramiah Ariya:
so, because the US has in the past been on the wrong side in the fight against colonialism, it can’t possibly be on the right side in a democratic uprising against a dictatorship?
i thought that would be considered ‘past behaviour’ anyways? anyhoo, how things are going so far, we’re talking about one right now, although again this is not on the US, it’s NATO.
i’m sure if mubarak had enough of a grip over his military and the werewithal to pull off a gaddhafi, we likely would have seen a similar UN/NATO intervention, hopefully with the same overall result. luckily in that case, the US was able to work behind the scenes more to influence the liberation from a strongman, rather than working with NATO to enforce a UN resolution brought forth by the arab league. you’ll note that the US was not at the forefront in libya, demanding bombings.
it’s true that obama is saddled with two previous wars in the ME region, two he’s trying to get us out of. and there was the surge in afghanistan. but his foreign policy in the ME should not be defined by iraq and afghanistan, but by what he himself has undertaken since. such as egypt, and now libya. obama defined his foreign policy towards that region pretty well in his famous speech in cairo. it didn’t involve bombing everyone for the fuck of it; if obama had such a hard-on for bombing muslims we would have dropped them on egypt instead of working behind the scenes on mubarak.
Danny
@soonergrunt:
Sure.
What I meant to say is that he is free to favor a US policy of non-interventionism, because that’s a legitimate political position to hold (albeit one that I don’t agree with myself).
But when he starts making up his own facts in support of that position and takes it so far as to it becoming a de facto “my enemy’s enemy is ipso facto a good guy” view w/r/t Gaddafi, then he aint gonna persuade anyone to agree with him.
But I never meant to imply that I signed on to any of his assertions. I respect his right to be in favor of US non-interventionism, that’s all…
Ramiah Ariya
@Danny – nope, I think you are arguing in bad faith. After all, who would argue against populations rising up against a dictator? It is like being against burning kittens.
No, the problem is why you think your country has to start dropping bombs. Can you explain why your particular country needs to get involved? Did it occur to you, “Hmm..I remember sometime back, very long back, another President seemed to have lied us into war. May be, just may be, we should sit this one out”
I am not even going near the other arguments here – after all, just like the Iraq war, this war quickly changed from ” we are helping prevent a humanitarian crisis” – to, “Gadhafi has to go”? Didn’t alarm bells ring?
Now, what is going to happen is obvious. The next war that a president pimps for will be much easier to push.
Villago Delenda Est
@Ramiah Ariya:
Um, you just lumped all Americans together there.
Ramiah Ariya
@chopper – Mubarak? “I consider President and Mrs.Mubarak family friends” Mubarak? Are you kidding me?
Mubarak HAS been killing and torturing his own people for a loooong time now. It is just that he was supported by the US. The idea that the US would have gotten into a fight with his army is just plain delusional.
Danny
@Ramiah Ariya:
Progressives holding other positions than non-interventionism is an indication of “a certain fragility” in American politics, how do you figure?
Non-interventionism has never (AFAIK) been the mainstream position of progressives / the democratic party (acknowledging though that those two are not necessarily the same).
See: Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, Harry Truman, JFK, LBJ and so on…
chopper
@Danny:
exactly. if the libyan uprising had a very good chance on its own of defeating gaddhafi’s forces without nato’s help, or gaddhafi’s army was not up for the fight and our government had a big stick to wave at the guy to get him to step down, we would have seen something more like egypt. and obama would not have been going ‘but i want to blow up shit! come on…’ and demanding to bomb people.
if you don’t want to see a democratic uprising fail in the face of a well-armed crazy asshole dictator type, you have to be for some sort of intervention. acting like america goes right for the bombs is stupid. we didn’t bomb egypt. we intervened in the best, most practical way we could that limited loss of life. that type of intervention would not have done shit in libya.
Ramiah Ariya
@Danny – I am not just in favor of US non-interventionism. I think, in a just world, the US should actually be punished for launching the Iraq war. When I say the US should not have “intervened” in Libya, that is less than ideal. Ideally, the US will be prevented from entering any such war – precisely because they committed the supreme crime against humanity – launching an aggressive war.
Other than that, my point about Gadhafi is simply that propaganda works. Libya quickly became African country ruled by the dreaded Third World dictator.
chopper
@Ramiah Ariya:
shrug. obama did thread the needle with mubarak, but if mubarak went off like gaddhafi did the obama administration would have changed gears on the guy. it would have been much more difficult to craft a policy there, since egypt’s military is large and well-equipped (thanks to decades of support from the united states). of course, that support is a weapon as well which was wielded during the egyptian revolution.
the point is, obama isn’t some bomb-the-muslims nut who thinks blowing up everyone is the solution to shit. despite our country’s support of mubarak and his relationship as a leader, obama worked hard to get the fucker to step down. the fact that mubarak is now on trial from his fuckin hospital bed for human rights violations with no qualms at all from the obama administration is a sign that obama was ready to dump the guy as soon as he could. remember the speech he delivered in fuckin’ cairo, demanding democratic reforms and freedoms. that was the first sign that the WH wasn’t big on mubarak anymore.
soonergrunt
@Danny: gets back to “painting with a broad brush a culture about which he knows fuck-all.”
That’s the biggest problem with Hollywood movies being available all over the world. People watch them and think they know anything at all about this country besides the blindingly trivial. He probably thinks there are cop shoot-outs in the streets all the damn time, too.
Larv
Ramiah,
Yes, prior to this Gadhafi had a spotless reputation. It’s only in the lead-up to the Libyan intervention that a relentless barrage of propaganda transformed him from a benevolent wearer of humorous costumes into the sort of dreaded dictator who would order his security forces to, say, bomb a civilian airliner.
Danny
@Ramiah Ariya:
I never argue in bad faith, so: fuck you.
You repeatedly imply that what happened in Libya was that the US invaded on a phony pretext that Gaddafi was a dictator, etc. Every time you do that I point out to you that that wasnt what happened. Start by accurately describing recent history as it played out and I won’t be on your case.
The UNSC gave any member state authority to intervene in Libya to stop Gaddafi violently smashing a peaceful uprising. We had unique capabilities to take out Gaddafi’s anti aircraft capabilities and key allies (France, Britain) asked for our participation.
As already stated, I opposed Iraqi Freedom from the outset, on the grounds that the administrations case for war seemed fraudulent and the global community agreed. Obama’s case for participating in the UN coalition in Libya strikes me as very transparent and honest and it made sense, and there is global consensus that intervention was warranted and Arab League sponsorship, so I support Libya.
That’s the worst possible way to try to arrive at the right decision. The next time someone will say that “we sat the last one out, maybe just maybe we should do it this time”. Either you’re a down the line non-interventionist (like you) or it is your bleeding responsibility to try to judge each case on the merits.
Military action by the UN coalition has never sought to take out Gaddafi. The UN mandate doesn’t cover that. That doesnt mean that nations participating in the UN coalition – such as the US – can’t hold the position that Gaddafi must go. Or that the Libyan rebels cant operate with the goal to make Gaddafi go.
The next war that “a president pimps” will have to be a case of a domestic uprising violently quashed by a dictator, a UNSC resolution and consensus in the global community that intervention is warranted. If those factors aren’t present, any appeal to Libya will be specious. It will be our job to point that out.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Ramiah Ariya: Except a number of us supported the invasion of Afghanistan.
chopper
@Ramiah Ariya:
quickly? gaddhafi’s been considered an asshole for a long time. even after he tried to rehabilitate his image and become part of the rest of the world, he was still considered a dictator, and crazy. you think we cranked up the propaganda machine to get the world thinking gaddhafi was an asshole? we fooled the arab league into demanding a UN resolution with anti-gaddhafi propaganda?
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Ramiah Ariya: What he’s implying here is that everyone he reads is a warmonger. It’s those American’s that don’t write at all that could be peaceful.
Total non-understanding of Americans in particular, but people in general.
FollowtheDough
Let’s stop pretending that the majority of progressives gave a damn about the freedom of Libyans. This was just another case of diehard Obama supporters strutting around and saying “11 dimensional chess, Libya’s dictator ousted”
But which dictator will now be brought in? Because I have news for you: Those rebels are not going to be “West friendly” for long. You know why? Time and time again, America has proven it’s not trust worthy. But now that we are on such a foreign intervention rush, let’s go to Syria and see how the middle east reacts to our meddling from country to country.
Meanwhile… we don’t give one utter shit about our work force in this country or our liberties under assault from both political parties. But party loyalists don’t want to hear that. They want to focus their attention on foreign nations that have little patience for our 11-D chess moves. A democratic party isn’t going to mean a damn if we don’t seriously stop the following
A)Free Trade
B) Corporate Dominance in our Govt
C) Military occupations
D) Harsh Prison sentences for lame drug offenses
Danny
@soonergrunt:
Well, in all fairness, it’s a two way street. But being misinformed doesnt cut it as persuasive advocacy even if Ramiah Ariya thinks it does…
soonergrunt
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): Of course, there were a large number of the denizens of this very blog that were against US action of any type in Libya. I was among those. I wasn’t here in the days of the lead up to the invasion of Iraq, so I can’t speak to that, but since JC was a wingnut at the time, I have to assume that most of the readers here were pro-invasion. I was against the invasion of Iraq for many reasons, but being stationed in Kuwait with the Army at the time, my choices were rather limited.
Afghanistan was an entirely different animal. I seem to remember that there was an event that triggered that whole thing. Can’t for the life of me remember what it was. Something about numbers, I think, but the phrase “act of war” comes to mind.
Danny
@FollowtheDough:
Brother. We’re already drowning in a sea of poop here. Did you really feel your input was needed?
chopper
@soonergrunt:
JC was a wingnut, but at least half the commentariat was here just to disagree with him. despite the blogger being a wingnut, the people commenting were not on the whole. it was pretty well mixed, and snarktastic.
chopper
@Danny:
but…war on drugs! free trade? i’m working on a really cool puppet that will totes convince you…
Danny
@soonergrunt:
Fwiw, I wasn’t a B-J reader at the time of Iraqi Freedom, I opposed it all along and I supported Libya from the start. I think the positions of e.g. Kerry and Obama (and me) on why Iraq was wrong are perfectly consistent with being in favor of Libya, and always have been. This has been mainstream progressive foreign policy all along: working within the UN when the global community finds it warranted to do so. Hence the Multilateralism vs Unilateralism debate during the Bush years. Am I the only one who remembers all that?
Samara Morgan
@Ramiah Ariya: the US should actually be punished for launching the Iraq war.
oh, we will be. its already started.
Consider the dilemma the SOFA presents for Obama. If we leave in December as the SOFA demands and as Obama has promised, the Sauds are going to raise their own army to oppose Iranian influence and protect the Sunnis in Iraq.
If we leave 10k troops then Muqtada will reactivate the the Mahdi army (60k strong) and kill them.
and not only kill them, but mutilate their bodies and drag them through the streets of Baghdad.
Pretty hard to be CinC these days.
boss bitch
Have you all seen this?
THIS
Libyans had(have)a giant picture up thanking foreign leaders for their help. I was very surprised, however, to see that they made UN Ambassador Susan Rice a part of the “FANTASTIC 4”. Interesting.
Samara Morgan
@Danny: not everyone is warmonger per se.
But they are all western culture chauvinists, even Amir Khalid.
the thing is…western culture might be better in theory, but its impossible to implement in practice.
Thus the Epic Fail of the Manifest Destiny of Missionary Democracy in Iraq and A-stan, aka How America Spent 10 Years and 4.4 Trillion Taxpayer Dollars For Nothing.
soonergrunt
@Danny: No, I remember the discussion about Libya. I just didn’t feel like regurgitating the whole thing to make the point that RA was and is shooting wide of the mark when he comes to this blog of all places to spew his “All Americans are EEEEVILLLLL” crap that sounds just like so many other non-Americans who come to an American Lefty blog, seeming to think that they’re going to find Americans who agree that we should all be in prison for one crime or another against humanity.
Villago Delenda Est
@boss bitch:
The druthers of the Libyan people are irrelevant to this discussion. This is high level stuff, here!
Samara Morgan
@soonergrunt: he didnt say all americans are evil.
im coming to believe most americans are stupid, though.
juicers sure are.
Samara Morgan
@Danny: like i said to Cole, the things we should discuss are Humanitarian Interventionism and UN Right-to-Protect Doctrine.
otherwise its just brawling and he said she said.
Is Humanitarian Interventionism a just doctrine?
Is there a “right-to-protect” ?
And what are we protecting…American interests or the human rights of oppressed and endangered populations?
Samara Morgan
@soonergrunt:
shouldnt Bush be in prison?
and didnt we elect him?
Samara Morgan
@Ramiah Ariya: propaganda is how the GWOT became the American war on al-Islam.
but that is a war the US has alredy lost.
want proof ? whenever i mention Islam on this blog someone will invariably bring up the mutaween and the girls school fire as evidence of how horrible al-Islam is….
Shall i bring up the Tulsa riots as evidence of how horrible American democracy is?
Shall i point out that a million muslim moms and dads died because of OIF, and that there are five million orphans?
Danny
@Samara Morgan:
Sure, most people are more informed about their own circumstances, problem is rather that some people have more influence over other people without necessarily knowing very much about them, agreed? That’s a reasonable case against US foreign policy (as illustrated by Republicans running for president on a platform of having a big foreign policy dick iow the ability to talk tough at the bad guy du jour and rush us to stupid wars).
Samara Morgan
@Danny: well we cant afford that brand anymore.
we are going to have to find out how to wage peace, because that is much cheaper.
IPOF its a bargain.
Libya will have cost 1.1 billion on Sept.1st, for a pretty successful outcome IMHO, inspte of all the BJ whinage about skeery islamists in the government.
We spend that every month in Iraq and A-stan FOR NOTHING.
Samara Morgan
waging peace.
Danny
@Samara Morgan:
Yes, I think it’s a just doctrine if pursued within the UN framework and with a requirement of reasonable consensus within the global community. That gives us the best shot at ensuring that such a doctrine isn’t just used as a convenient pretext in the pursuit of e.g. American interests.
Looking at Iraq, the system worked. A majority of congress bought the Bush admins bullshit (albeit after being lied to). But Hans Blix didnt buy it, France didnt buy it and the UN didn’t sponsor Iraqi Freedom.
Not saying it’s perfect or failsafe only the best choice we have, with the alternative being a world sans intra-governmental order, where might makes right and autocrats do unto their people whatever they fancy.
Samara Morgan
@Ramiah Ariya: this is true.
we need to have an adult discussion about Right-to-Protect doctrine and Humanitarian Interventionism.
But you sure won’t that find here.
Samara Morgan
@Danny:
yes, and the punishment is going to work too. its going to be a very long time before America enters a war of choice based on the say-so of a fucking WEC retard and war profiteer opportunists.
like i said, America is going to have to figger out how to wage peace. because we cant afford Team Amurrikkka Fuck Yeah anymore.
Samara Morgan
@Danny: the reason Bush/Cheney/Rove were so successful at scamming the american electorate, is that Americans are naive western culture chauvinists.
they believe with all their fat little hearts that western culture is “superior” to islamic culture.
but the problem is, it can’t be done.
And we just spent 4.4 trillion in treasure and 7k soljah lives in blood to find that out.
Libya was a stone bargain. No blood and only ~one billion in treasure.
And we prolly made a friend.
we dont have many friends in MENA.
boss bitch
@Villago Delenda Est:
My bad
Larv
Ah, yes. The person who changes her nym every week and litters her speech with bizarre neologisms is complaining about the lack of an adult discussion.
Link please? I’m pretty sure this is utter bullshit.
Danny
@Samara Morgan:
Sure, but the larger problem is that people all around the world are prone to the same bias that is rampant south of the Mason-Dixon line. That’s why multilateralism and the UN is our last best hope, because at least there are some checks and balances, not just the rule of the biggest dog.
Samara Morgan
@Danny: ahh, but anglosaxon protestantism is failcake now.
the world is going to change.