Wikileaks has released another 100,000 cables, and they’ve created a page with 30 new revelations. I thought the China ones were most interesting:
“The following is neither an overstatement nor is it hyperbole. It is a fact. The contaminated waters of the Pearl River and other water sources in Guangdong are as serious a threat to the region’s health and economic sustainability as the decline in exports, the closure of small and medium enterprises and the increasing utilization of land for nonproductive reasons.” Local residents in some heavily polluted areas display effects such as cancers and bone diseases stemming from exposure to high levels of arsenic, cadmium and other toxins.
China is also building a bunch of new nuclear reactors based on an old French design. When we decided to outsource all of our industrial production to China, we also outsourced a whole lot of pollution.
Shawn in ShowMe
Right now the average life expectancy in China is 73 years. I wonder what it’s going to look like in 20 years?
Samara Morgan
we are killing China with the free market poison pill.
the only problem is that we are going to die of it first.
:)
Amir Khalid
@Shawn in ShowMe:
Or, what’s life expectancy like in industrialized China compared to rural, non-industrialized China?
Joe Bauers
It’s a race to see if they can kill us with poisonous and/or radioactive cheap products before they kill themselves producing them.
Linda Featheringill
@Amir Khalid:
Good question. In China, there is a lot of difference between rural life and urban life, compared to a country like the UK where differences are more superficial.
ETA;
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~koyam20m/Urbanruraldivide.html
Information is close to the bottom of the page. Urban life expectancy is greater.
dpCap
It’s a pity the MSM stopped paying attention. Perry and the “outrage” that Hurricane Irene was a dud get more ratings.
Punchy
OT:
If this doesn’t kill Bachmann’s FL chances, nothing will. Even hard-core righties in that state dont want the Everglades f’ed with. Please, please have Dick Perry pick up this line of thought and broadcast it loudly.
Mino
When we decided to outsource all of our industrial production to China, we also outsourced a whole lot of pollution.
No, our overlords sent the cost of their polution to China. China chose to pass the cost to her people, instead of charging for it.
Europe manages to be industrial without killing her people.
Frankensteinbeck
You didn’t know this? I knew this. Not intimate details, but yes, China’s screwing their environment. And honestly, they have been since Mao took charge. The widescale destruction of any land that could theoretically be planted under his reign was horrifying, as were the famines it caused. His yellow river dam was a disaster designed mainly to feed his ego by fulfilling an old Chinese prophecy.
M-C, you are silly here, and have no historical perspective. Like I said, they were fucking over their country just as bad under ‘communism’. And you think any of this is bad? Try looking at acid rain problems behind the Iron Curtain during the cold war.
EDIT – Mino puts it well. It’s not the industry or the capitalism. It’s the irresponsible lack of regulation of those things by selfish, short-sighted people. In China’s case, it’s the government who depend on their huge economic growth to keep the country from collapsing into the chaos and starvation Mao left it in. They can’t stop, either, because they’re worried they’ve created a middle class that’s going to demand democracy. They saw what happened to the Soviet Union, and Arab Spring must scare the Hell out of them, too. So this ain’t stopping soon.
Amir Khalid
@Linda Featheringill:
The unevenness of development across China — pretty much focused on coastal regions in the east, to the exclusion of the western part of the country — looks like trouble waiting to happen.
Mino
@Joe Bauers: Maybe the Chinese think the pollution should accompany the items that produced it.
But they sure caused a lot of broken hearts with the dog/catfood poisonings. I’m rather amazed that didn’t get a harsher response from the government.
Mino
@Frankensteinbeck: Yes, I remember the photos of Eastern Europe after the Wall fell. A lot of credit goes to those countries for the work they did to clean it up.
Frankensteinbeck
@Mino:
In a way, that gives me a lot of hope. It’s amazing what can be recovered from. But that’s never an excuse for doing the damage in the first place.
CoffeeTim
Having lived in China for a time I got to see some interesting stuff first hand. Pollution has long been a problem in China but the abuse of the environment since 1940, at least, is astonishing. The current round of pollution may be worse than some earlier ones but at least economic growth came along with this one. I guess that’s some consolation if your kid gets cancer from the general pollution all around.
There are many other problems China will need to deal with in the next few decades that will be at least as difficult and maybe worse. The next few decades will be most interesting for the people of China and I wish them well. It probably won’t be pretty at times.
Linda Featheringill
@Frankensteinbeck:
and Amir Khalid:
I find this interesting because China’s ruling class knows what happens when a country isn’t economically integrated. They aren’t dummies and they are well educated, with lots of historical studies.
This might not be the Chinese Century after all.
schlemizel - was Alwhite
Sorry for being a glib asshole – hey! Its who I am :)
So America does still stand a chance! All we have to do is wait for the Chinese to kill themselves off in 40 years or so & we are back on top baby!!!!
schlemizel - was Alwhite
@Punchy:
Yes, remember when Boy Blunder was opening up more offshore areas to total destruction he specifically prevented the Florida coast from the to-be-raped list. It was a move to save Fredo Bush who was Governor of the toilet with palm trees at the time.
stormhit
@schlemizel – was Alwhite:
Of course, the reality is that the US hasn’t really stopped industrial production, as prior to the recession the growth in manufacturing output had been rising at a constant rate for decades. But manufacturing output isn’t the same thing as manufacturing jobs, and it doesn’t mean it’s the same products as before.
Zifnab
@Mino:
You realize China isn’t just one dude, right? I mean, it’s authoritarian, and it *is* single party. But the nation has over a billion people. A lot of choices were made and are continuing to be made by a great many people in an attempt to exploit the cost/benefit of cheap Chinese labor and lax environmental standards.
That said, there is also a fair amount of push-back and outrage in local Chinese communities where these policies are being implemented. Eventually that’s all going to come to a head.
Commenting at Balloon Juice since 1937
According to many old-timers I’ve talked to (i.e. engineers who used to work for large manufacturers), the primary reason to manufacture in China was lack of environmental controls not the cheap labor, although that was a bonus.
Monkey Business
China has a lot of issues to sort out before they get to sit at the Superpower table with the United States. Pollution is only part of it. They still have an authoritarian Communist government, horrible human rights issues, dwindling natural resources, and the international community trusts them about as far as they can kick them.
The “Chinese Century” rhetoric is overblown until they actually do something to address their internal issues, otherwise they’ll collapse into revolution in the next 10-20 years.
JGabriel
TPM:
Republicans announce they will filibuster Krueger’s nomination, “because his name sounds too much like Krugman.”
.
chopper
the great thing is, someday china is going to have to tighten up particulate pollution if it wants to join the first world on the world stage. that’ll be great, because so much of that particulate pollution and SO2 is having a negative effect on CO2 and methane’s climate forcing.
so we get even warmer. huzzah! either way we lose.
bkny
just imagine what’s in those pharmaceuticals now being produced in china…. they might cure that headache while giving you liver cancer in the meantime….
Amir Khalid
@Commenting at Balloon Juice since 1937:
It does follow a pattern, in a way. The original Industrial Revolution in the 19th century was accompanied by environmental devastation and social abuses, especially of the new industrial working class by the emerging capitalist overlords. And those are things we’re seeing in industrial China right now.
I don’t know how China’s entrenched, nominally Communist (but really very pro-business) government is going to deal with these issues, if it sees environmental and labor regulation as diminishing China’s economic competitiveness.
Sentient Puddle
Hey look, m_c flypaper!
PeakVT
China is also building a bunch of new nuclear reactors based on an old French design.
The CPR-1000 is a derivative of the Framatome/Areva implementation of technology licensed from Westinghouse. Through the miracle of corporate mergers, Westinghouse now makes a reactor (the AP-1000) derived from the Combustion Engineering design.
jonas
Phew! I’m sure all those dying Chinese are grateful that they didn’t have the fascist EPA killing growth and hurting small businesses all this time. In fact, when you take a deep breath by the Pearl River, you can feel the corporate profits searing your lung tissue. It’s the smell of prosperity!
Remember — this is the paradise Michelle Bachmann wants to lead us to. Excelsior!
wrb
@Amir Khalid:
They’ll dump the urban waste in rural China in order to support more healthful urban living
Origuy
@Linda Featheringill:
The UK has been industrialized for almost two centuries. A better comparison might be with 19th Century Britain, where the Thames was a sewer and the air was thick with coal smoke.
Elie
Heard a very scary piece on NPR the other day. The United States no longer produces/manufactures its medications here in this country. Guess where all of our medications are manufactured? You guessed it: China and India. They manufacture everything from antibiotics to the most fragile and rare substances that are needed to keep people alive and functioning each day.
Wanna hear something even scarier? FDA is just putting in an inspection process for plants in both countries and that the underfunding of the FDA over the last 10 years has greatly slowed many of its oversight and approval processes.
I guess I shouldn’t be shocked anymore. Remember the pet food scare we had with Chinese firms adding a plastic chemical relative to pet feed to fake increase its “protein” content…
Mino
@Zifnab: Synecdoche.
And, yes, they just released the baby formula whistleblower from prison. He recanted.
Seems like 21th century governments/parties only listen to popular opinion when they have manufactured it.
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
China’s in a transition space right now; and the Arab Spring/Gorbachev Era comparisons are bound to scarify the leadership.
My perception from trying to do business there, though, is that there is a younger generation- foreign/Western educated, scientists and technocrats who understand that there are many things China must do to actually ascend to that First World table. Right now they LOOK like they belong there– if you’ve ever been to Beijing, Qingdao or Shanghai, they appear to be modern cities (if it weren’t for the Chinese characters on every building you could be in nearly any Western city in the world). BUT, the leadership (political AND economic) have to transition from the “authoritarian-control” politics and “get over any way you can” economics. I think that time is coming… but it’s still years away.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
But… but I thought Wikileaks only cared about hurting the great USA and getting our troops on the ground killed. Since leaks about China don’t fit into that narrative, I’ll just pretend this post never happened.
Damn you, Assange!
Mino
@Elie: Wonder where Canada has its drugs manufactured? Guessing, I’d choose India. Whereas we probably use China.
Elie
@Mino:
I think that Canadians like much of the world, use the same major brands/types of drugs we do. I don’t think 30 million Canadians could support their own drug market, do you? Esp for the “Orphan” drugs for rare diseases that are exceptionally expensive due to their availability versus the demand.. the need for them is for rare diseases so that there is little pay off to produce them in any volume…
Canadians need to get out of their heads that they have an extrordinarily different environmental and corporate reality. Last I looked y’all were tearing up beautiful Alberta digging out those oil sands to send to us and the world. As you know,those require extraordinary amounts of water and production of poisons to process but its making Canada really rich. Y’all have the same disease that we do.
Mino
Doesn’t Canada purchase in bulk for the entire nation? That means they can choose the vendors, right? Or do they buy directly from the drug company? They still could select the batches, couldn’t hey? Or are the drug companies refusing to identify where a specific batch comes from?
Elie
@Mino:
I have no idea, Mino. You might check with the Canadian counterpart to the FDA..
Yutsano
@Elie: Teh Google provideth.
Cermet
@Amir Khalid: Try reading back ground – many of the cancers/illnessses are rural Chinese because they depend on the river directly – wells with pumps cost $$$; most of the working class is in cities that have some treatment. Still, killing people with pollution to save us here a few pennies on the dollar is sick.
Cermet
@PeakVT: Could you translate that into english? Like now it differs from standard US BWR? Thanks
Samara Morgan
@Frankensteinbeck: It’s not the industry or the capitalism. It’s the irresponsible lack of regulation of those things by selfish, short-sighted people.
ummm…like the BP spill and Fukashima?
hahahahaah!
you crack me up.
:)
Samara Morgan
what im kinda curious about is the timing.
250000 diplo cables were taking forever to dribble out, but i thought that was part of Assanges plan….so why the change? is he just dumping the unclassified stuff to clear the decks?
the diplo cables look to be 50% UNCLASSIFIED. all the recent release are unclassified.
and im kinda disappointed in the 4k israeli cables. Since they are all unclassified, pretty innocuous stuff….mild even.
Assange released them to the israeli newspapers first….to beat down charges of anti-semitism? who can say.
but…i wunner when the classified ones are going to drop.
September 20 is the UN vote on Pali statehood.
Mino
@Samara Morgan: People who want Wall Street criminals to be charged need to widen their nets. Corrupt heads of regulatory agencies need to do some splaining, too. Have any of those faced criminal charges, ever? Bush’s appointees were so damn blatant and in your face, it should have been impossible to ignore. Just passing regulation is a joke when there are no legal consequences to selling out. And our Supreme Court will make sure that is the case.
Samara Morgan
@Mino: copacetic. but regulatory capture is still part of the “freed” market.
Paul in KY
@Commenting at Balloon Juice since 1937: It’s not just the cheap labor & lax environmental controls, it’s the cheap shipping that enables it all.
If there weren’t huge container ships able to cross the pacific with 500,000 tons of crap, American companies wouldn’t be operating anywhere 1/2 way around the world.
I guess they’d be in Mexico.
Samara Morgan
well you know, mistermix….its all about the timing with Julian.
dont you wonder what hes up to?
all the cables i’ve seen pulled up on #wlfind have been unclassified and the israeli ones were….but Reuters says there are some classified ones in there…perhaps hes running a treasure hunt?
to inspire interest?
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
100K cables released, with a whopping 30 revelations, including one that China is polluting?
Bradley Manning is just like Daniel Elssberg.
Elie
..and to complicate easy attribution of blame, there is always a certain amount of uncertainty and risk in managing any technological “solution”. Yes, Fukishima is enblematic in some ways to some degree of less than ideal decision making, but that doesnt mean that all aspects of using nuclear power are necessarily based in corrupt or incompetent decision making or that all regulators are “captive”. That actually helps feed the meme of the anti-government folks who do not believe that there are any public servants or administration that is competent and trustworty and that is just not so. Yes, in some programs there is not only the risk for capture and malfeasance, but also real uncertainty and the limits of technology. Many drugs, for example, that are used to treat serious disease have side effects. Some of these might be quite harsh. Does that therefore mean that the folks who designed and/or administered the drug are corrupt or incompetent?
Again, we have this notion of perfectability that we have to monitor — at least as those who advocate for government intervention and regulation. There is a place to acknowledge and safeguard against corruption, but a way to do that which does not undermine the need and absolute requirement to have effective government oversight and involvement. I think too many times the left/progressives end up nodding our heads in agreement with the right on how “bad” government is.
Corner Stone
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): Hmmm, what? Could you do me a favor and remove that red bulbous nose off your clown face so I can hear you better?
Elie
@Yutsano:
Looks like Mino is going to have to dig for the actual manufacturers of the drugs as they say straight up in the link that they play no role in the manuacture of the drugs
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Corner Stone:
I believe that’s your clown nose. That’s just how bulbous it is.
Mino
@Elie: Well, I think I saw reference to FDA-like inspectors. The point I was trying to make was the Canadian government could make informed choices. Our system rewards bottom line choices, pretty much.
Samara Morgan
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): i think Julian is just dumping the low value stuff with a few easter eggs hidden to stir up interest….because ppl are getting immunized to it and that doesnt help paranoia induction process…
As wikileaks often says……
Samara Morgan
@Elie: what do you think about the BP oil spill?
was there regulatory capture involved there?
Mino
@Samara Morgan: I hate to sound all naif and such, but I don’t remember it being this bad until the 2000’s. It took 30 years for “greed is good” to become “greed is operative.”
Samara Morgan
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): im waitin for these.
Samara Morgan
@Mino: if you consider free market theory, this is natural emergent behavior.
Evolutionary economists now say that the “freed” market is simply teleologically incapable of delivering improvement to the human condition.
The “freed” market only delivers improvement to the overclass.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Samara Morgan:
Yeah, well, the whole “stay tuned”/”tune in tomorrow” closer doesn’t make One Life to Live into Ulysses. I will believe that they’ve got anything of importance when I see it.
But that’s only one of my points. Do you remember when Daniel Ellsberg broke the Boston College point-shaving scandal when he released the Pentagon Papers?
Corner Stone
@Samara Morgan:
Where do “they” say this?
Mino
@Elie: I think too many times the left/progressives end up nodding our heads in agreement with the right on how “bad” government is. No, this leftie differentiates between people who are trying to do their statutory job and those who make a mockery of it.
Samara Morgan
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): he didnt have 250000 papers. there is a lot of low value stuff. the sheer mass of the Manning archive is kind of daunting.
remember the release timing….the video +3 months…the afghan dump +3 months…the iraq dump.
Julian has been dribbling out the diplo cables a few at time to test his paranoia induction theory.
i think what has been happening is that the slow release is creating an immunity effect instead of inducing paranoia….not what he wants at all.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Samara Morgan:
Helluva a way to test a theory.
Samara Morgan
@Corner Stone: It is naturalistic in purging earlier notions of economic change as teleological or necessarily improving the human condition.[1]
Samara Morgan
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): indeed.
Julian built a prototype NL system killer and he is field testing it on a modern security state….the United States of America.
I wonder if in 20 or 50 years the doctrine of hacktivism will be taught to children in public schools?
Corner Stone
@Samara Morgan: Your cite doesn’t say what you claim it does.
And it’s a “wallah” moment. Reading that article at WikiPedia (that Google led me to) reminds me of everything you’ve ever posted here.
Are you an AI experiment by the founders of Wiki, et al?
Corner Stone
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): All other disclaimers aside, Assange is most definitely testing a system killer on the US super state and security infrastructure.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Samara Morgan: @Corner Stone:
So he’s experimenting, not knowing what the outcome will be?
I’ve made the comparison before: Assange is Dr. Frankenstein. He hasn’t gamed out the possible results of his experiment. I think there’s a word for that sort of behavior: Unethical. I can think of a few more, too, but I’ll leave them to your imaginations.
Corner Stone
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): No, I think Assange has a fairly limited scope of outcomes in mind. It’s the application of reciprocal force he may have misjudged.
And Assange probably wouldn’t mind being compared to Dr. Frankenstein. For many reasons.
Samara Morgan
@Corner Stone: try this thought experiment CS.
How does the “freed” market create jobs?
ONLY by side-effecting, right? trickle down, supply side, etc.
here is another….IN THEORY the perfectly free market will “eat the rich”.
How the fuck does it do that? No one has ever been able to explain that to me.
And finally, empirically, the “freed” market has CAUSED the Econopalypse that Ate Americas Jobs.
Can you cite a single single freed market policy that has improved the condition of the underclass in the 50 years?
you asked for one source, i gave you one source.
Samara Morgan
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): i think its perfectly ethical. The Hacker Nation owes no allegiance to America the Unjust.
NWBCW.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Corner Stone:
He may have misjudged a lot more than just the application of reciprocal force. The thing is: You don’t know.
You’d like to think you know, because you’d like to think that a guy who’s whispering in your ear that everything is going to be alright as he starts fucking you without that condom is telling you the truth, that he’s disease free, but the fact is that YOU DON’T KNOW.
Samara Morgan
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): no, Assange WANTS to give America a disease.
Paranoia reflex.
That is how he plans to kill the security state.
Its the DESIGN of his NL system killer.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Samara Morgan:
What does the Hacker Nation owe humanity? What if this experiment backfires to the point where there’s nowhere on earth you can go that isn’t living under an autocratic security state as a reaction to Assange’s experiment?
You seem to be operating under the assumption that it’s a settled point that democracy and personal liberty are viewed as the the preferred way to move the species forward. This is simply not the case. Not every nationality has a Magna Charta or a Storming the Bastille as part of its tradition. In fact, the majority of the world doesn’t. Not even those cultures that do have legacies of personal liberties have populations that are in complete agreement that it’s the most effective way to move that culture forward.
Samara Morgan
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
but that is the core part of the design….Assange predicts that America will become a police state on its way to NLS collapse. Once it becomes a police state the population will rebel.
An aware populace is an empowered populace.
That is a quellism.
:)
i think the Arab Spring supports Assanges design.
social media frees information. free information leads to a free society.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Samara Morgan:
@Samara Morgan:
If it’s a field test and its outcomes are, in Assange’s eyes, positive, he wants to spread that disease farther, no? What power structure is safe? If national borders break down and we become small, self-governing communities, wouldn’t Assange employ his device against a community that formulated, secretly from the rest of the world, processes to protect its resources?
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Samara Morgan:
You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. I guess you could stick it in a re-education camp, though.
I think high bread prices play a larger part in fomenting the Arab Spring than Twitter. We are talking about a relatively parched chunk of the globe that’s seen pretty high population growth over the past couple of decades.
Corner Stone
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): He’s not fucking me, he’s got his dick wedged right into the authoritarian security apparatus you seem to hold in so much regard.
You’re an unabashed authoritarian follower who can’t seem to separate what’s best for the individual from what’s best for the state.
ETA, I want his product. I like raw info and the ability to make up my own mind.
I know that concept scares you, and you’d rather be spoonfed safe little dribs and drabs your teensy brain can handle.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
Nothing, SM? I’m going to take that as capitulation on my point that Assange doesn’t give a damn that what he’s been doing was only half thought-out.
Love your tenacity, kid. CYA round later.
Corner Stone
@Samara Morgan: You can’t cite “Wikipedia” as a source when you claim “Evolutionary Economists”. You need to cite an actual person or group.
Corner Stone
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): IMO, Assange has thought longer and more deeply about this project than anything you have ever contemplated in your entire life.
It’s not surprising you can’t understand that.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Corner Stone:
Because I don’t agree with you? Because I see inherent, dangerous flaws in Assange’s creation?
Don’t overestimate the individual. Until I see the article that shows how you, personally, made the fertilizer, hoe and scythe, and farmed the wheat and baked the bread, as well as drilled for the oil and mined the other resources you needed to build your computer from scratch, I’ll think you’re full of shit. That tree your looking at is part of a forest, ya know.
Corner Stone
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
No, because 90% of every comment you make here is pro-authoritarian. It’s not that hard to figure out. I’ll get you some finger paints.
The rest of your tripe is hilarious. Farmed the wheat?
Geesh.
Samara Morgan
@Corner Stone: i thot u knew how to use teh google.
my bad.
[1]^ Ulrich Witt, (2008). “evolutionary economics.” The New Palgrave Dictionary of Economics, 2nd Edition, v. 3, pp. 67-68 Abstract.
Samara Morgan
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): sry.
had shit to do in RL.
but i’d be glad to delineate the hacktivism paradigm and what i know about Assangian Information Theory anytime.
:)
Elie
@Samara Morgan:
sorry — was away for a bit…
Your question: was BP’s oil spill the result of regulatory caputure? Well, I would say most definitely ‘Yes’.
But does that mean that I don’t think that government oversight could not be effective no matter what? No. I just think that particular agency with oversight and definitely other agencies and State personnel have allowed themselves to be corrupted and no one made them pay a price for that. Even now, I don’t think that they paid enough of a price.
What to do? Suspending all government oversight on the notion that it can’t work is not a solution as at least there is some accountability. HOw do we make government work. Well, you gotta stick your nose in its business and raise hell. Sometimes people have to be pretty courageous (whistle blowers). And then we had fucking get out of this anti government point of view and start taking running these agencies seriously through putting our leaders through their paces. Will that happen? It could, but its going to have to take a mixture of more exposure and then a big success story so people can see that oversight CAN work.
Anyway… that is my thoughts on this frustrating issue.
Samara Morgan
@Elie: i think the problem is more how we can make the “freed” market work for anyone but the oligarchs.
Corner Stone
@Samara Morgan: Fucking pathetic.
Samara Morgan
@Corner Stone: you asked for a source, i gave you source.
i think the problem is you are welded to free market theory like the rest of America.
its a myth CS.
open your eyes.
Corner Stone
@Samara Morgan: You didn’t give anyone a source. Good God, did you even bother to read what you cited?
Elie
@Samara Morgan:
Yes… THis is the challenge.
sapient
I guess Assange has abandoned his “responsible journalist” role, since he’s quit redacting the names of people who could face reprisals as a result of his disclosures.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Corner Stone:
And who’s the follower?
You’re such a knob. You think I don’t see that our whistle-blowing laws are imperfect? They are. What differentiates me from you is that I don’t think that the best way to catch a rat in the house is to blow up the fucking house.
Corner Stone
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): You’re the authoritarian follower. I like how you left out the key descriptor.
You’re the knob who smooches the tip of the security state cock.
Samara Morgan
@sapient: but that is part of of his design…..leakers make leakers.
it spreads….
Corner Stone
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): It’s more than a little humorous that you have zero clue what’s actually happening here.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Corner Stone:
Yeah, because I’m not. I’m not an ideologue, I’m a liberal with socialist leanings- I consider all of the alternatives and possible outcomes, and go with what works best to achieve satisfactory results. IMO. the status quo works a lot better than opening all of the doors and windows and giving the people with hardcore security apparatuses the invitation to take advantage of the situation.
Do you really think that if Assange is successful there won’t be greedy, power hungry, conspiratorial motherfuckers out there trying to fill the void?
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Corner Stone:
Yeah, because I’m not. I’m not an ideologue, I’m a liberal with soshulist leanings- I consider all of the alternatives and possible outcomes, and go with what works best to achieve satisfactory results. IMO, the status quo works a lot better than opening all of the doors and windows and giving the people with hardcore security apparatuses the invitation to take advantage of the situation.
Do you really think that if Assange is successful there won’t be greedy, power hungry, conspiratorial motherfuckers out there trying to fill the void?
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
@sapient:
I guess you “guess” wrong, sap –
Got any more of those guesses to spread?
.
.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
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@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
He’s got a whole manifesto on this. The object is to make these elites afraid to communicate their secret plans to each other, thus depriving them of the coordination necessary to implement said plans.
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Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Uncle Clarence Thomas:
Nothing to worry about. Gatekeeper Assange is on top of this.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Uncle Clarence Thomas:
Hah! What happens when the new elites just keep it amongst themselves, don’t use the intertubes to communicate? It’s not like Stalin needed a Mac.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
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@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
You know what they say – to really fuck things up, you need a computer… The idea is to marginalize the coordinated evil-doing. I’m sure you’ll grant that without telecommunications and electronic documents it is far more difficult and time-consuming for elites to accomplish their evil goals.
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Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Uncle Clarence Thomas:
They say that, huh? You know what the Chinese say about that? “Fuck you, we control the internet here. You want in, you play ball. You piss us off, we take it away.”
Uncle Clarence Thomas
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@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
Yes, they do, because it’s true. For example, a computer ballot counter could conceivably, and easily and quickly, tally every single vote incorrectly, while it would be practically impossible to duplicate that feat with manual counting.
Not to unnecessarily embarrass you, but the United States says exactly the same thing. That is the whole point of wikileaks, after all – it’s intended to be a counter-measure.
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Corner Stone
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): Slurp, slurp, slurp.
Corner Stone
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): Don’t you get anything you fucking tool?
“The Chinese” can go fuck themselves right alongside yourself.
Corner Stone
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): He’s not a gatekeeper you little bitch.
God damn you’re stupid.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Corner Stone:
He’s not? Glorious Leader Julian hadn’t been leaking the Manning cables out slowly, redacting names? No? Because if the answer is “yes”, he’s been gatekeeping.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Corner Stone:
Then why hasn’t Assange gone after the Chinese…Or the Russians, where the PM is a former higher-up in the KGB?
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
Insult or answer coming up? My money’s on the former.
Samara Morgan
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): because there isnt any difference.
A security state is a security state, even if they pretend they are not.
And one nonlinear system is as good as another for the experiment.
The most important thing is the leaker data set though.
if Assange had a chinese leaker or a russian leaker he would go after them.
America is actually more vulnerable to paranoia reflex for two reasons….the observed response to 911, and because America pretends it is not a security state.
Samara Morgan
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again): Julian is not a gatekeeper.
Hacktivism is a New Paradigm.
Samara Morgan
from the NYT
This is consistant with Julian’s policy of maximum impact. The new tactic of including names is to step up the pressure. Julian regards the US as a neocorporatist authoritarian conspiracy.
So the NYT and the media were the gatekeeper.
:)
Samara Morgan
every thing wikileaks does is deliberate and calculated and part of a design.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@Samara Morgan:
I don’t buy it.