For some reason, this was a bit creepy when I read it. I know it is no big deal, every WH would do stuff like this and has to, but I still found it kind of, I don’t know, creepy is all I can come up with:
The White House has issued detailed guidelines to government officials on how to commemorate the 10th anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks, with instructions to honor the memory of those who died on American soil but also to recall that Al Qaeda and other extremist groups have since carried out attacks elsewhere in the world, from Mumbai to Manila.
The White House in recent days has quietly disseminated two sets of documents. One is framed for overseas allies and their citizens and was sent to American embassies and consulates around the globe. The other includes themes for Americans here and underscores the importance of national service and what the government has done to prevent another major attack in the United States. That single-page document was issued to all federal agencies, officials said.
After weeks of internal debate, White House officials adopted the communications documents to shape public events and official statements, and they sought to strike a delicate balance between messages designed for these two very important but very different audiences on a day when the world’s attention will be focused on President Obama, his leadership team and his nation.
The guidelines list what themes to underscore — and, just as important, what tone to set. Officials are instructed to memorialize those who died in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and thank those in the military, law enforcement, intelligence or homeland security for their contributions since.
“A chief goal of our communications is to present a positive, forward-looking narrative,” the foreign guidelines state.
Why do we have to set a tone? What happened, happened. I’m watching the Tudors on Netflix, and one of the episodes I just watched was focusing on the reformation of the Church in England. The new Lutheran Archbishop of Canterbury was excitedly pronouncing that the reformation included requiring all people to learn the ten commandments and recite the Lord’s Prayer. The big reform was that it was in english, rather than latin. I groaned.
I sort of feel the same way about official proclamations on the tone that should be set for 9/11.
cathyx
John, don’t you know? All the world’s a stage.
Amanda in the South Bay
Thomas Cranmer’s belief’s would probably be considered more Calvinist than Lutheran.
pointer
Actually, having the Bible in English rather than Latin was a huge deal. For most people of the time, it was their only source of written English. Education!
c u n d gulag
John,
If you think THIS is jingoistic, imagine if Little Boots and Darth had the opportunity to continue their ‘Reign of Error’ for a third term, and had to orchestrate the 10th Anniversary of their blessed 9/11?
And imagine if Rudy were still Mayor?
boss bitch
Kind of not the same. Anyone who didn’t play along got tortured or killed.
Stefan
The Archbishop of Canterbury was not a “Lutheran”, at least as that phrase is used today.
Loneoak
Within 12 hours we’re going to see a headline on Drudge that looks something like “Obama bans trucknutz from 9/11 parties” or “Anti-colonialist Obama more concerned about foreign 9/11 victims.”
Stefan
The new Lutheran Archbishop of Canterbury was excitedly pronouncing that the reformation included requiring all people to learn the ten commandments and recite the Lord’s Prayer. The big reform was that it was in english, rather than latin. I groaned.
At the time, though, that was actually a huge, huge reform. Only the clergy and the otherwise well-educated spoke Latin, so the vast majority of the country could not understand church services. Requiring services to be performed in a language that people could actually understand was, for obvious reasons, a tremendous step forward in making religion and its workings accessible to the common people.
As an analogy, imagine if US Congress debates and laws were all conducted and written in Latin today, so that 99% of Americans couldn’t begin to understand them, and the Obama administration then mandated that from now on they had to be in English.
Villago Delenda Est
A few years back I asked my parents, who were old enough to remember Pearl Harbor quite well, if there was anything like the annual 9/11 commemorations for Pearl Harbor.
They said there was nothing like it.
Of course, the country was actually fighting a fucking war, not going shopping in response then.
9/11 to me will always be The Wallow. No examination of what actually motivated the attackers (“they hate us for our freedumb!”), nothing but woe is we, who were unjustly surprise attacked for meddling in other people’s business for decades.
Yet the deserting coward quietly caved to one of Osama’s key demands, the withdrawal of US forces from Saudi Arabia. They withdrew to Iraq, which apparently isn’t sacred enough to merit flying planes into buildings, and besides, Saddam was no friend of Osama…quite the opposite, in fact.
cathyx
What will the narrative be in 10 years when we’re still there fighting?
Amir Khalid
I really don’t see a problem here. This is just the sort of thing for which people look to a national leader, and I’m not sure why that discomfits you. Obama is doing what a good national and world leader does: setting the right tone for commemorating a historic event of global import. If anything, this kind of sensitivity can only reflect well on Obama and on America.
ppcli
This was major for a lot of reasons. Ceding control of the magic words from an educated elite to the general population, and fostering literacy were just two of them.
Hawes
Don’t we usually bitch about how the Democrats suck at message discipline? I don’t have a problem having a theme for what is really just a public relations event. The grieving of the friends and families is not affected one bit by the fact that we have a coherent theme for 9/11 remembrances.
Also, too, the switch from Latin to the vernacular was huge. Pre-Luther church services were things the congregation watched and didn’t understand. This kept the church powerful and mysterious. Many times, only the clerics took communion – the effects were assumed to “trickle down” to the masses.
The change from Latin to English helped remove the church as sole intermediary between an individual and salvation and helped free people’s minds on matters of faith.
Amanda in the South Bay
@Stefan:
Though, at the same time, Henry VIII’s reforms were pretty mild. It really wasn’t until Edward VI that the full force of Protestantism (at least doctrinally speaking) was unleashed on England.
Culture of Truth
9/11 made americans crazy, or highlighted existing nuttiness, or both; but this seems relatively tame on the jingo scale.
Amanda in the South Bay
@Hawes:
You gotta read some revisionist history of the English Reformation, not just repeat tired Whiggisms. I’ve always enjoyed Christopher Haigh, who showed that the pre-Reformation English Church was pretty vibrant, people cared about stuff like feasts and pilgrimages and the whole warp and woof of medieval religious life, only to have it extinguished through state coercion.
Svensker
If The Tudors told you that the Archbishop of Canterbury was a Lutheran then they’re doing it wrong. And apparently they also didn’t mention the enormous change it was to have “the word” in the vernacular rather than in a language common people didn’t speak.
You’re not a humanities teacher, are you? Hope not.
As to the “tone” stuff, I completely agree. We’re way off into the imperium here.
Bart
One of the guidelines should be that New Yorkers and other fraidy cats need to come out from under their beds.
cleek
these are instructions for government functions, yes?
so, the boss is trying to get all of the various divisions singing from the same songbook. not any more creepy than any other bureaucracy, IMO.
Villago Delenda Est
@Bart:
You mean all those Pam Geller types cowering in fear of the Mighty Mooslim?
Southern Beale
I don’t find this creepy at all. This was a set of guidelines for government officials. Government officials are, you know, representing the U.S. government. You don’t want some ambassador in Syria saying something offensive like “American deaths are more important than Muslim deaths” or something. You don’t want some Teanutty federal official in Florida holding a commemorative rifle shoot of a Muslimy effigy or something. I think this is absolutely appropriate to set guidelines. Otherwise you get the scourge of the “overzealous staffer,” which could become problematic.
This says nothing about the jingoistic, flag-waving rah-rah that is going to happen at Fox News and everywhere else. For instance, I noticed National Geographic is doing a big thing on Rudy “Lord of 9/11” Giuliani …
Let me add, I worked in the communications office at a Federal agency for a while. We wrote talking points for EVERYTHING. EVERY single thing. This is how the federal government does things.
Culture of Truth
Who doesn’t like a good feast?
priscianusjr
I was in NYC on 9/11. Aside from the fact that thousands of people died and a great deal of valuable property was destroyed, 9/11 was not a strategic act of war, it was a PR stunt. Different factions have used it for different purposes, but to this day it remains a media event, the main purpose of which was to seriously mess with people’s minds. I try not to pay attention to any of it. But I agree with those here who say that what the present administration is doing about it is both necessary and minimally jingoistic.
John Cole
Why is it whenever I hastily write something 50 anally retentive people come in and tell me what something really means. I’m well aware of the power of moving from latin to english AT THAT TIME. What was making me groan was thinking that the state hasn’t changed much, still demanding rituals and the like.
MikeJ
I don’t get it. What is the least bit “creepy” about telling people, like ambassadors, who’s main job is talking to people, what they should be talking about?
I think it’s great that we have an administration that recognizes that other people don’t like terrorists any more than we do.
Culture of Truth
If Republicans were still in charge 9/11 would be national holiday, devoted to feasting and the gathering ofamilies who would share tales of Saint George of the Bullhorn (the Brave), St. Rudy of the Towers (the Strong) and Archangel Dick Cheney of the Waterboard (the Avenger)
sublime33
“One of the guidelines should be that New Yorkers and other fraidy cats need to come out from under their beds.”
I think New Yorkers got out from under their beds long before FOX Nation got out from theirs. Many are still there.
Villago Delenda Est
@John Cole:
Perhaps because you wrote it hastily and you’ve got a readership filled with people who have a lot of knowledge that is brought to the surface when you write something in a hasty manner that doesn’t convey as well as it should what you’re trying to say?
Svensker
@John Cole:
Well, then, write more clearly.
Duh.
Rihilism
“When wearing flag pins, they are to be placed on the left, four inches below the shoulder,…, and for Gawdsakes, no one is to mention Bill Maher or Phil Donahue…”
The Dangerman
@Southern Beale:
I don’t either; there’s a lot of stuff coming up (see U.N. and Palestinian Statehood) and no reason to add any fuel to an already hyper-volatile mix.
Culture of Truth
It is for this reason that Al Gore invented the Internet.
ppcli
@John Cole: It’s your super-power. Like Magneto, except that instead of metal, you attract smartasses. And makato_chan.
I can understand if you would have preferred X-ray vision.
Brian
First you criticize Obama for not getting out ahead of republicans on messaging (budget, healthcare) and then you criticize him for getting his message together proactively? Everything is political.
soonergrunt
@Amir Khalid:
@cleek:
@MikeJ:
We apparently need to feel angsty about something.
Poopyman
It’s become a question of who shapes the narrative, and the republicans have had a 10-year head start. The WH absolutely has to put these out or else the republicans will have an uncontested field for their continuing fear-mongering. And said fear-mongering and terror-porn will continue regardless.
RP
There’s nothing creepy about this. The government is coordinating the messaging for government officials. As it should.
different church-lady
Why do we need to set a tone? Because if the administration doesn’t, guess who’s going to.
Rihilism
@Villago Delenda Est:
I concur…
Poopyman
@John Cole: It has always been so, since the struggle between chief and shaman for power.
Also too, I could be anal and point out that your comment is #24, so no, 50 people haven’t jumped on your case.
Or else, @Svensker: +1.
Amir Khalid
@John Cole:
Groups of people — couples, families, circles of friendship, tribes, nations — have always had rituals and ceremonies, the better to mark events of importance to them as well as to affirm and strengthen their group-ness. I’m sure there’s a more academic way to put it, but it seems to me a basic need for people in groups of any size.
joeyess
Apologies in advance for those directly affected by 911.
What happened on that crisp, clear Tuesday in September was horrible. But it was really a horrible failure of leadership.
What transpired after was a horrific abuse of power.
I can’t stand the fetishization of 911. That has been the singular most spectacular failure of our lousy media.
In a sane society, fingers would have been pointed at those to blame and people held to account for their incompetence.
This is not December 7, 1941. This was the act of lunatics, who got one over on a lazy, incurious, galtian, spoon-fed, frat boy.
I’ve been dreading this day for 9 years and 353 days.
The NFL will be insufferably pious and jingoistic and I can’t wait until the following Tuesday.
Just get it over with.
Samara Morgan
lol…what message should the WH send?
that America beggered itself and sold its soul on the cheap because of paranoia reflex and our insatiable need to meddle and proselytize?
that we are SORRY we elected a fucking WEC retard that destroyed our country and other peoples countries too?
hahahaha!
soonergrunt
@Southern Beale: Precisely. This is government functioning AS IT SHOULD.
This is not like the commemorations in 2006, which were all about “EVIL MOOSLIMS ARE HIDING BEHIND THE SHRUBS TO KILL YOUR CHILDREN AND RAPE YOUR DOG! VOTE REPUBLICAN! AIEEEEEEEE!”
This is the government telling people that while remembering the dead, which most would’ve done anyway at least for a minute or two, we shouldn’t be stringing people up who wear headscarves. I don’t know why this would be controversial except to someone needing it to be so.
Keith G
I will join the others as I love piling on to logic fail.
I was a big fucking deal that had worldwide implications for many more years than the USA has been in existence.
Don’t they teach you kids history?
cleek
i don’t see how you can discuss The Tudors without mentioning the endless parade of pretty naked people.
Wilson Heath
Count me among the uncreeped. Setting the tone here is more about keeping things scaled back rather than puffed out so far as I can see. Unbecoming for members of the government to call for a new crusade with any hint of presidential backing. Boggles the mind to think what that could lead to.
Danny
Not creepy whatsoever. Looks competently and tastefully handled to me, much like how we handled the death of ObL, Gaddafis escape from Tripoli, etc, etc.
If I need a reminder of how it could be there’s always youtube and wikipedia.
Stefan
@Amanda in the South Bay:
Absolutely, yes. And continuing under Elizabeth I.
Mnemosyne
I’m not sure what’s creepy about trying to make the inevitable 9/11 rembrances inclusive rather than presenting them as The Worstest Day Ever In America, but YMMV, apparently.
We’ll be in Las Vegas that weekend, so we probably won’t even know that it’s Wingnut Christmastime again, thank god.
MazeDancer
Writing down anything about 9/11 was not a good idea. No matter how well thought out, no matter how well-intentioned, it’s a “He’s a Muslim Sympathizer” Fox Op. Also GOP’s waving around paper screaming, well, at least Obama’s written a plan about something. And then twisting the words.
TheWorstPersonInTheWorld
Have we also been instructed to thank these same military geniuses for leaving the largest city in the country and Washington D.C. completely defenseless on 9/11?
OMG…I’m sorry: I forgot it’s impolite to mention such things…carry on.
Danny
@John Cole:
Well la-di-da, maybe you changed at least. Take a look at the three links in my post above; reflect on the fact that you supported Dubya through all of that, but now you’re nitpicking the Obama admin even recognizing the ten year anniversary of 9/11. The state changed drastically, but it would seem you changed even more. You sure this isn’t about you trying to atone for past sins more than anything else?
wrb
Without guidance as to tone, there would be someone in the huge government who would present the anniversary as a celebration of our ongoing glorious crusade to kill all the muslims, which would then be reported around the world as America’s Real Agenda.
Good move
TheWorstPersonInTheWorld
@Danny:
I’m pretty sure Cole doesn’t do self-reflection or cultivate self-awareness. Best to careen from one superficial allegiance to another.
Derf
Yea, Cole does not concern troll about the Obama WH. Just says stuff that is, I don’t know, kind of “creepy”. Not concern trolling. Nah, Captain Doom Cole never does that!
Keith G
@TheWorstPersonInTheWorld:
That was a civilian decision. I see you are living up to your handle. Good job!
soonergrunt
@TheWorstPersonInTheWorld: And what precisely would you would have done differently, General?
Countries that are not at war do not routinely keep anti-aircraft artillery downtown or fighter planes buzzing about in the lack of a quantified threat. Generals, Admirals, and such like don’t go putting armed weapon systems out amongst the public without presidential approval, which they did not have.
Danny
Well, it could also be that traffic’s been looking gloomy as of late so perhaps attracting some more Emobaggers would bring new life to the comments section, but what do I know?
fasteddie9318
In Cole’s defense, the series (granted, I’m only up to Jane Seymour’s death) definitely plays up the Lutheran tendencies of Cranmer (who is a regular in the second season but disappears after that for some reason) and especially Cromwell; not that they implemented Lutheranism, just that they themselves had leanings. Cranmer did go quite a bit farther in that direction under Edward than he’d been allowed to go under Henry. In general, while the Tudors plays with history a fair amount, I find it closer to the historical record than the Borgias, which rewrote the Cem Sultan story to the point that I almost stopped watching the series.
@Amanda in the South Bay:
The Pilgrimage of Grace suggests that even Henry got this one wrong, no?
Danny
OT, but among high impact search queries for Balloon-Juice.com: “fuck”, “rapture jokes”, “you can’t handle the truth”, “dog bites man” and “stay classy”. That’s funny :)
drkrick
John, did you miss the part about this being directed at the government? What’s creepy about management keeping any organization on message for a major event? Sounds to me like they’re getting the message about right, too.
TheWorstPersonInTheWorld
@Keith G:
You are talking out of your ass, having no way to verifiably know one way or the other. What we DO know is that the combined U.S. civilian/military left the country undefended for nearly ninety minutes even AFTER the first plane hit.
Why does it pain you to admit the facts?
Good work, all round, I’d say. Nothing to see here.
fasteddie9318
@TheWorstPersonInTheWorld:
The military is under civilian leadership. Unless you’re arguing that the civilian leadership ordered CAPs around DC and NYC after the first plane hit and the military leadership ignored them, which I’m pretty sure would be an act of treason, the only logical explanation as to why there were no CAPs sent up is because the civilian leadership didn’t order them. What would you have preferred? Imposition of air patrols over American cities without an order from civilian leadership to do so? How would that not have constituted a coup?
Carol from CO
…with instructions to honor the memory of those who died on American soil but also to recall that Al Qaeda and other extremist groups have since carried out attacks elsewhere in the world, from Mumbai to Manila.
In the name of bipartisanship.
lethargytartare
I’m with Cole, at least insofar as I find the whole 9/11 ritualism exceedingly creepy.
It’s almost as though the national psyche was actually overjoyed to finally have a genuine (if non-proportional) reason behind the activity of our war machine.
it’s become an annual celebration our our RIGHT, dammit! to kill people all over the globe.
and that’s creepy as fuck
Cheryl from Maryland
I’d rather have reading than church sponsored parades revolving around fake parts of saints.
TheWorstPersonInTheWorld
@fasteddie9318:
You know what’s REALLY creepy? That ten years after the fact we still don’t KNOW the answers to these questions…and the BJ regulars are super OK with that.
Amanda in the South Bay
@fasteddie9318:
I think the Calvinistic beliefs of many of the English Protestants was made more manifest under Edward VI, when the liturgy was translated (and changed significantly in order to conform to Protestantism). I know confessional Lutherans have always criticized Anglicanism for its ambiguity, for example, regarding the real presence. Henry VII didn’t really didn’t change the liturgy significantly, retained core Catholic beliefs, and mostly just changed the church hierarchy (Supreme head of hte Church in England) and destroyed the monasteries.
I’ll greatly admit to thread jacking, if only because the English Reformation is a topic that genuinely interests me (and to put a burr in the saddle of our good blog host).And its with a bit of sadness, because it really was state coercion that uprooted hundreds of years of culture and tradition, and that introduced iconoclasm to English religious life.
Danny
@lethargytartare:
And do you feel that what the present administration is doing at the moment in preparation of 9/11 is to encourage a “celebration [of] our RIGHT, dammit! to kill people all over the globe”? Because I kinda fail to see how that’s true….
Amanda in the South Bay
@lethargytartare:
I used to hate it when I was at the Defense Language Institute and we had to “commemorate” 9/11 in 2006 and 2007. It wasted our afternoon after class in order to instill a fucking pseudo sense of piety. I hated how dead DLI grads were mentioned, because Iraq had nothing do to with 9/11, and I felt Memorial Day would be a better place for that sorta thing.
soonergrunt
@TheWorstPersonInTheWorld: We do, in fact, KNOW the answers to these questions. There was NO standing CAP running at the time. We know that because such missions had been stood down since they were (in the absence of a credible threat) an unnecessary waste of resources. The Air Defense System, such as it was, was designed to intercept and escort russian long range bomber/reconnaissance missions like they had been doing since the 1950s. Since they got a lot of lead time for such missions, they didn’t keep aircraft in the air.
There was no military response because there were no military assets readily available to respond. Real life is not like the movies, and pilots can’t just roar onto base in their corvettes and jump in the first plane available and shoot up the bad guys.
Please take your 9/11 truther nonsense to find other people who are off their meds. If she hasn’t already shown up, I’m sure m_c would fit that bill nicely. kthxbai.
soonergrunt
@Amanda in the South Bay: Memorial Day would precisely be a better day for that sort of thing. That’s what we have it for. The institutional (non-school) Army didn’t make a big deal out of 9/11. Some guys in Afghanistan and Iraq would make a deal of flying the Colors from a flagpole in country on that day for a certificate, but I always thought that was pretty fucking cheesy. Veterans’ Day was a bigger event in country because our allies there like Canada, England, and Australia also celebrated that day as Remembrance Day or Armistice Day.
Yutsano
@fasteddie9318: Remember: Special Timmeh is a Troofer. Only he is special and amazing enough to know DA TROOF!!
The Commish
Obama is the boss of the Executive branch. These instructions seem to be only for federal agencies.
Consider that if no instruction was given as to tone, some yahoo Bush appointee or low-level civil servant teahadist (they exist) might focus their commemoration on Teh Evil Mooslims, or use it as an excuse to campaign to put a Real Murrican in the White House.
lethargytartare
@Danny:
Nah, it’s just creepy that the jingoism Cole points out is so accepted, the WH feels the need to issue an interdepartmental memo telling employees not to wear “America! Fuck Yeah!.” t-shirts to work on Friday, but that tastefully small Flag Pins are acceptable.
Mnemosyne
@lethargytartare:
See, now that makes perfect sense. Personally, I want to know why the F we still have to sing frickin’ “God Bless America” at the seventh-inning stretch for every damn baseball game. It’s like the jingoism has become a habit that can’t be stopped.
It seemed to me that Cole was saying it was a creepy level of government control for the Obama administration to be instructing government employees about keeping 9/11 observances inclusive, but maybe he meant something more like you were saying.
ETA: Not to mention that “God Bless America” is probably the crappiest patriotic song this side of “God Bless the USA” or whatever that piece of post-9/11 shite was. Give me a good ol’ “America the Beautiful” or “This Land is Your Land” any day.
Danny
@lethargytartare:
Well yeah I guess I kind of agree with that (while thinking it’s great that they are issuing the intradepartmental memo). I’m not so sure if that sentiment makes you agree with Cole though, because that’s not how I understood his post…
TheWorstPersonInTheWorld
@soonergrunt:
Almost two hours of hijacked planes in the air and NO fighter jets or other meaningful defense of any kind, even for the Pentagon, the heart of the military industrial complex, allegedly could be brought to bear, and you’re ok with that? You think that is an acceptable state of affairs for the most militarily powerful nation on earth?
You are a gullible, foolish tool, desperate to explain away the inexcusable, at least when it comes to the military and the continuing coverup.
It is really important to you that people who ask questions about 9/11 be shamed into silence, isn’t it? Not gonna happen, tool.
But I’m sort of remembering: Don’t you have a military background? That would explain your ignorance and slavish devotion to any official spin…
TheWorstPersonInTheWorld
@Yutsano:
Idiot. You would have been right at home in Soviet Russia. Whatever lie the government tells today is your reality.
Why don’t you share with the class what that troof is that I claim to know, other than that the official propaganda story doesn’t bear scrutiny, and is full of holes? Why is it so important to you that NO questions be asked without the asker being shamed into silence?
Rihilism
@cleek: I only watched it to catch a glimpse of Henry Cavill’s butt. Thank Gawd for pause and slow mo…
Danny
Lulz.
Kane
A subdued and reflective message remembering those who lost their lives and thanking those who have served the country bravely on that day and since then.
It beats the hell out of Freedom Fries, empty-slogan banners, and the thumping of our flag-pinned chest. It’s far better than non-stop swagger and bragging about how exceptional America is while demonizing an entire religion and offering rhetoric about the threat of sharia law.
It’s important for government officials to stay on message on this. If one person says something out of line, it will receive the bulk of the attention.
Rihilism
@Danny: En Soooviet Rrroosha, da troofs reaahhlity you…
Dollared
This just looks like competent message control to me. Exactly what I think Obama should be doing on many things, economic and tax policy being another, regulatory policy being another, etc, etc.
Hawes
@Amanda in the South Bay: I wasn’t speaking of the English Reformation in specific, so much as the Reformation as a whole. I don’t doubt that the pre-Reformation church in England was vibrant. The rituals and feasts were significant events in the lives of the community. So were the monasteries and the links to Rome.
But Protestants (whether Lutheran of Calvinists) tended to stress individual understanding of the gospels in ways that Catholicism didn’t. For Catholics, Mass remained a central mystery of faith. Protestants wanted less mystery.
Of course, Henry’s “Reformation” was really more of a land grab than a genuine doctrinal dispute with Rome so…
Heliopause
When any other country in the world does the same thing it’s called “propaganda.”
Dollared
@Heliopause: that’s just stupid. The government is entitled to have an official position and have a communication policy. It’s when it’s untruthful and manipulative is when it’s propaganda.
Maude
@Hawes:
What the churches had done before the split with Rome was what we call charity for the poor etc. When Henry sacked the churches, the monks and other Roman church workers went homeless.
A lot of people resented this and when Mary Tudor rode with her troops to take over the throne, she had a lot of support.
Mary killed “protesters” and then Elizabeth killed Catholics. This is one of the main reasons why the federal government was prohibited from establishing a state religion.
Imagine what the religious right would do with a state religion.
Heliopause
@Dollared:
Um, yeah. So is every other government on earth. So do the governments of Venezuela and Iran and China. And so on.
1. Look up the definition of propaganda,
2. explain how issuing “detailed guidelines to government officials on how to commemorate the 10th anniversary of the Sept. 11” is not manipulative.
Dollared
@Heliopause: From Word IQ.com, a nicely nuanced definition:
The point is that if you think this is morally wrong, then you are wrong. Message management is an act of necessary competence when you are the government of a nation of 300 million people commemorating a controversial and emotionally laden event. If the intent is also to create false impressions or derive political advantage, then there are moral issues.
But the same way that FEMA and NOAA and the FAA have to manage their communications about their spheres of responsiblity, the White House has a responsibility to manage the government’s role in 9/11 commemorations.
So your blanket statement is wrong. It is not “manipulative” to provide messaging guidelines if they are politically neutral.
Omnes Omnibus
@ Heliopause: Would you have the federal government ignore the annversary? Would you leave it to the individual judgment of every federal official? Should the character of the commemoration be left to the GOP? If not, then how would you do it differently than Obama has?
Danny
@Heliopause:
Should a federal employee at his job be free to make public statements to the effect that the religion of Islam is a poison and an existential threat to the world? Should he be allowed to say that the US is at war with the religion Islam, in his official capacity? Is it “propaganda” if the administration issues a memo that no federal employee should say that in their official capacity?
Heliopause
@Dollared:
Since I neither said nor implied this, the rest of what you say is irrelevant.
Heliopause
@Omnes Omnibus: @Danny:
Your questions bear no relationship to my original point, which is up at #87. Go read it again until it sinks in.
Danny
@Heliopause:
Well your point is moot without any followup whatsoever. Do you think it amounts to hypocracy when we call the fact that Maoist China had loudspeakers in peoples bedrooms singing the praises of Mao and Maoism 24/7 an example of “propaganda”, but we wont call a memo telling fed employees that they cant say we’re at war with Islam “propaganda”? Or what?
wobbly
Don’t watch “The Tudors” on Netflix. It is full of lies.
Archbishop Cranmer, for all his faults, wrote the “English Book of Common Prayer”, which includes the best funeral service ever for those grieving….
“I am the Resurrection and the Life”…
Way better than the Catholic service, which mostly consists of lots of family begging on their knees NOT to send Mama or Papa to hell straight away.
Jesus, John!
You actually DON’T know who Cranmer was, what he did, and how he died???
Omnes Omnibus
@Heliopause: In your view, any message put out by a government is propaganda and is manipulative? Is that what you are saying? If that is the case, any communication by any person or entity is the same thing. Basically, I wonder what you were getting at with your post? Do you think that the Administration was wrong to do what it did, whatever you choose to call it?
Heliopause
@Danny:
The “what” is that John called this “jingoistic” and “creepy” and I tried to help him refine his thinking by pointing out that the term we usually apply to these things, when carried out by other governments, is “propaganda.”
Is this simple enough?
@Omnes Omnibus:
Are you feeling alright? Because this is frankly a stupid thing to say, and I don’t think you are truly stupid. I hope.
Omnes Omnibus
@Heliopause: Where you were going with the comment wasn’t clear. I was asking a question. But be an asshole if it makes you happy. So you point was simply that government messaging can be called propaganda? Okay, well, thanks for the info. Some of us thought you were actually trying make a point of the value or validity of the the message. It turns out that I might indeed have been stupid in this instance. My fucking bad; looking for meaning in an insipid remark.
Amir Khalid
Like dollared notes at #91, any messaging put out by any entity could legitimately be called propaganda. Whether it’s bad or good depends on what is in a particular message.
From the New York Times’ description, there seems to be no real cause for uneasiness in the Obama admin’s talking points: Remember that Americans are not the only victims of terrorism or even of al-Qa’ida. Show humility about America’s missteps in responding to terrorism, and respect for America’s friends and allies. Be positive about the future, and hint that it doesn’t belong to terrorist organizations.
I’m absolutely OK with all of the above. I think that in this matter, and a few others, John Cole’s gubmint creepiness alarm is a bit too sensitive.
tomvox1
@Bart:
From this New Yorker, to you, buddy…
Are you fucking kidding me? Get a clue, moron.
Kisses,
T.