(Tom Toles via GoComics.com)
The boneheadedness of the average MBA, and the harm the breed has done to the American economy, can never be overstated. And yet the Media Village courtiers will never stop attempting to polish the turd, per the Washington Post/Bloomberg:
… Many industries find themselves in a quandary. They often need older workers for their expertise, yet they also may need to accommodate their physical disabilities and their desire for more flexible schedules. And as workers stay on the job longer, they may need training in new technologies or work procedures.
__
In the past decade, the number of seniors in the labor force has grown nearly 60 percent, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. By 2018, the number of workers 65 or older is projected to climb to 11 million, from 6.5 million today.
__
Baby boomers are fueling the trend. Healthier and better educated than any previous generation, many plan to continue working, at least part time, well past traditional retirement age. Human resources managers say voluntary retirement nearly stopped after the stock market collapse in 2007.
__
“When do people choose to retire?” asked Karen Smith, a senior researcher at the Urban Institute. “When they are able to replace their income.” …
Ya think?
Actually, it’s worth reading the whole article, just to watch every quoted expert dance around the very real problem for workers in every age group — the old pharts limping around gulping painkillers because they’re terrified of losing their group insurance, the twenty-somethings who can’t get the hands-on training they need because companies won’t invest in new workers, and the sandwich generation stuck in the middle and terrified of having to support both their parents and their adult children. But, hey — the most recent quarterly profits look just great, and top management’s looking forward to another record-breaking round of bonuses! Besides, everyone knows it’s the deficit that’s really keeping American workers awake at night… that, and the heartbreak of knowing that some small, shrinking percentage of their fellow workers are still trapped under the onus of free-market-resistant unions.
Captain Howdy
Way, way off topic but …
this is kind of newsworthy, innit?
Shinobi
I have been going on and on about this to anyone who would listen. Raising the retirement age is like, the worst thing we could possibly do right now. There are so many older people in middle management who are not going to retire for another 10 years. At a lot of companies there is just no where for anyone under 35 to go.
How are two generations of people going to get the experience they need when they can’t get into a decent career path because a bunch of 70 year olds couldn’t afford to retire?
It makes no sense to me to encourage people to work later in life when so many people are unemployed. We should be rewarding people for retiring now, and hopefully leaving openings for others who need the job so that maybe someday they too can retire.
Cowbelle
Cool post. Wanna apologize for the “worthless turd camp-follower” statements now, and retract the false accusation of “banning?”
MattF
Note, though, that the oldest boomers are in the 60-65 year range. Still ‘young’ old. Just you wait another 10 to 15 years, and it will be another story entirely, with a big wave of low-spending and high-health cost retirees.
Linda Featheringill
:-)
Sometimes, sarcasm is just what we need.
There aren’t enough paying jobs for everyone, the older folks can’t afford to turn loose and the younger people can’t get a foothold. Not good for society.
debit
@Cowbelle: Hey, here’s an idea. Why don’t you email her if you want to continue this, or better yet, email Cole?
Culture of Truth
Planning ahead, how does it fucking work?
Judas Escargot
Love this phrase. I’m stealing it. Especially because that’s all we’ll be able to afford to eat pretty soon.
I went away to think this weekend, and was forced to admit something to myself: pure Capitalism is in no way compatible with the human organism. And the liberal/progressive project, which has been trying for almost a century to ‘soften the edges’ of capitalism to build human-oriented societies, is exhausted and probably defeated.
So, now what?
Cowbelle
@debit: LOL, I really did laugh at the “email Cole” line. Good one!
debit
@Cowbelle: It wasn’t very cunning on my part, granted.
ETA: And yet sometimes people still fall for it.
Martin
Well, the biggest problem with US business, IMO, is they’re a bunch of fucking cowards. I don’t know when it happened – probably with the legions of MBAs and their ‘risk management’ credentials – but the seem terrified to do anything – hire, expand markets, create new products, etc. I keep looking for investments to diversity into, and nearly every company I research looks like it deserves to go out of business – they’re all run like shit.
geg6
@debit:
This might just be the most unintentionally funny and clueless thing posted on the Toobz today.
ETA: And then I realized it might be my post. LOL.
Sam Houston
Federally funded free community vocational training. It would help disadvantaged youth and older Americans who plan to keep working.
Teach the basics: budgeting, word processing, email and web, understand nutritional labels, remedial english, spanish for customer service, understanding credit, how to buy a house, how to start a business, and, without a doubt, what you need to know to obtain health insurance.
A massive part-time teacher hiring puts people to work.
The cost of books and thin clients are stimulus spending.
Online versions of every physical class track.
Competitive public Leaderbord ranking of students (for fun only), gold stars, and a shiny hand signed certificate when you pass.
I can dream.
barath
It’s at times like these that I think Dmitry Orlov might have a point: make the system irrelevant to you before it becomes actually irrelevant.
He makes this point both in his comparative look at the USSR and the USA and his article on the five stages.
He summarizes it a bit at the end of the second article as: live without money, provide for your own basic needs (i.e. grow your own food), work to build a stronger local government and community, etc. Nobody can do these all at once, but almost everyone can start on them now.
schlemizel - was Alwhite
I should be retired – I had planned on retiring this year 35 years ago. I carefully evaluated my company retirement plan & my 401k options and started saving just to make an early retirement possible.
Then my company got raped by Marvin Rainwater & friends. They gutted our pension plan so instead of getting a reasonable monthly check I got a lump sum of a little less than $1000/yr of service – which they keep until I turn 65 & pay me 2-3% a year on (no, I don’t get a choice).
That was followed by 20 years of working for companies with no retirement plan. Although a few did have some level of 401k matching one was matched in company stock that went to hell & will never recover. Followed by the lost decade on Wall Street.
And now I have to consider that the promise of Social Security can be broken at any time in order to maintain an unreasonably low tax rate for billionaires and corporation who are having their best years ever.
I doubt I will retire in less than 10 years even if that means I am dragging my broken down, cancer diminished body to work every day. This should successfully prevent some deserving younger worker from advancement so its a lose-lose-lose all the way around.
All hale John Galt the One True God.
Chad N Freude
@Cowbelle: It’s easy: [email protected]
You do know how to use email, don’t you?
dmsilev
Speaking of MBAs run amok, Romney has announced his plan to create jobs. High up on the list, Reagan worship. Seriously:
I think Obama should propose creating the “Reagan National Rail Network”, with every bridge and tunnel named after Reagan. Oh, and we should seriously look into construction of a Reagan Pyramid so that the late Pharaoh might be properly honored as he journeys to meet and join the gods.
Culture of Truth
If this is the new Rez, I want off.
Alex S.
@dmsilev:
The whole GOP is a Reagan erogenous zone.
barath
@dmsilev:
The REAGAN Act: Rail Electrified America, Greener American Network Act.
schlemizel - was Alwhite
@Culture of Truth:
Didn’t Amy, Gingrich and Abramhoff have one of these things already set up on a Pacific Island? Cant remember the name of it but it was replete with workers held hostage, institutionalized slavery, rape and murder as required?
srv
What Shinobi said, I wonder how much we could have temporarily lowered the SS retirement age for the ‘stimulus’ money. One time, quit job, go on SS. Creative destruction without the destruction part.
debit
@geg6: Actually, I was semi-serious. I am sick of the whole thing, sick of the bickering and the grudge holding and the whole “What about that time you said…?” hectoring on every side. It’s no different than when m_c does it.
Dennis SGMM
This topic caused me to wonder why pols from both parties are concerned about creating uncertainty for business but neither party seems too concerned about creating uncertainty for potential retirees. The prospect of having your lifetime’s savings and your home equity wiped out by the machinations of Wall Street combined with the fact that both Social Security and Medicare are now being singled out as causes for our economic woes (Although our bloated defense establishment and two foreign wars seem to be mandatory) would lead many seniors who might otherwise retire to keep working out of fear.
If you want to make room for young job seekers then a good start would be taking concrete steps to reassure working seniors that retirement won’t beggar them.
Chad N Freude
I believe that it’s a combination of business handsomely rewarding MBAs from the world of scientized management (theory without any experimental or statistical evidence) and the Randian model of untrammeled capitalism that has been gradually propagandized since the inauguration of Ronald Reagan.
A Mom Anon
@barath: That’s kinda awesome.
Sir Nose'D
Great opening…
When you compute the current cost of an MBA program and the discounted cash flows from the projected earnings increase you get with an MBA, it is extremely risky to even pursue an MBA. This sets up an interesting recursion–if you have an MBA you probably don’t have agood mind for business.
As for the rest–I think I saw this idea published once or twice before in that famous economics journal DERP!
TooManyJens
@barath: I like the way you think.
Martin
Grudge holding should be the primary bannable offense on this site. It’d solve countless problems.
Culture of Truth
@schlemizel – was Alwhite: Ah yes, the paradise that was the Marianas (“U.S. Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands”)
Linda Featheringill
@Judas Escargot:
Hardcore lefties would say that capitalism cannot be successfully reformed and must be replaced with something based on human needs rather than on profits.
I personally agree with this. HOWEVER, I don’t have a new economic system tucked away in my pocket.
Marx thought [at least at one point] that a well-developed international capitalism would be harder on people than more local economies. Go back to regional production of our needs? Don’t know. I also don’t know how to accomplish that.
ant
@barath:
I love it.
Swishalicious
Thanks for this post. My parents are older, though I’m <30, and are definitely feeling the pinch. At 70, my dad is still working as a computer programmer and is keepin' on keepin' on until probably 72 because of the damage to his 401k from the Great Collapse. At 68, my mom was forcibly retired by a medical condition but still works part time in the summers at about minimum wage. They are both very, very grateful for Social Security to keep the household budget somewhat comfortable.
It just irks me to no end that this is the plight of average people of retirement age… they can't stop working. It's simply a moral issue: you should be able to retire at 65 and live a life of relative comfort, if you choose. Sure, if you want to work until you keel over, by all means do so. But these days, for far too many of our parents, it's not a choice.
dmsilev
@barath:
Bravo!
Villago Delenda Est
When the Revolution comes, after we take care of some select lawyers (I’m thinking of some total fascist assclowns on the Supreme Court) and the Village, then we go after the MBAs. They are a fucking pox on our economy, with their damnable short term profit seeking at the expense of doing what an economy is supposed to do…allow for specialization of labor that makes life a bit more bearable for everyone.
Chad N Freude
Data point: I have a nephew who has a PhD in Management from the U of Chicago and is making enormous amounts of money who cheerfully acknowledges that he really doesn’t know anything about managment, business, or finance outside of his narrow area of specialization.
Chris
Sweet baby Jesus, IT ALREADY EXISTS. It’s called “the world” (give or take a North Korea or a Zimbabwe) and it’s been that way since Thatcher and Reagan pushed the Washington Consensus through at institutions like the IMF and World Bank.
Granted, it’s not called “The Reagan Economic Zone.” I think that’s what’s really wrong with the world. Not enough Reagan. Perhaps we could change all our science textbooks: the Earth will hereinafter be referred to as “Reagan,” the Solar System as “Sector Reagan,” and the Milky Way as “the Reagan Quadrant.”
In addition, all Chuck Norris and Jack Bauer jokes will hereby be abolished and replaced with Ronald Reagan jokes.
Ronald Reagan’s tears can cure cancer. Too bad soulless zombies can’t cry…
geg6
@debit:
Well, I, personally, found an FPer saying some of the shit that was said yesterday about another FPer in extremely poor taste. As I always find CS, who is your classic case of a bickerer and grudge holder and all around troll.
Look, I don’t mind disagreements and have plenty of my own here. But I found the whole drama yesterday to be the fault of two people, not everyone else.
In regard to the actual post here? I got nuttin’. I’m 52. I knew when I was 30 that I’d never be able to retire. I am a poorly paid, extremely well-educated cog in the wheel of life. I was fucked the day I was born and didn’t have the name “Rockefeller” or “Mellon” on my birth certificate. I’m just glad my parents were able to enjoy some retirement for a couple of years before they died. They worked harder than me their entire lives (and I think I work pretty damn hard). I never expected to retire and I still never expect to.
Martin
@Sir Nose’D:
That’s always been my metric. I’ve known some quite capable MBAs but they all got their degree paid for by a company, and then quit as soon as they earned it. So, it cost them nothing but time, and then moved on to something better, so I allow an exception.
Of course, I also have decided that pursuit of a PhD should be a recognized symptom of various personality disorders.
ant
And Tom Toles is a great political cartoonist. Always make sure to read the smaller print at the bottom of his cartoons.
Comrade Javamanphil
@Sir Nose’D: I got my old employer to pay entirely for my MBA so, quite to the contrary, it seems like they were the ones with a poor head for business. (I left because I made a proposal for how I could actually use my MBA skills, which contrary to the main post are not entirely worthless, and their response was “Nah, we’re good.”)
barath
I guess Reagan really stood up against those who want people to “take light rail to their government jobs”:
Reagan Signs Bill Containing First Metro Rail Funds:
Rey
@ cowbelle… can’t we all just get along? Ballon Juice is my last salvation – well not really but, I have come to rely on this blog as one of sanity and escape from the hell hole this world has become. Sad I know- it is what it is. It is nice to know that John Cole is not the only one drinking to get through this shit we call the “Real World” The only thing I watch on cable anymore is HGTV, the contractors are super HOT!!!!
Linda Featheringill
@schlemizel – was Alwhite:
I wish you good health and comfort.
But I can sympathize with the “I was supposed to be retired by now” complaint. Same here. And right now there’s not a damn thing I can do about it.
schlemizel - was Alwhite
@Culture of Truth:
Oh yeah, thats the one – I wish we could hang that bit of unbridled capitalism on everyone of the galtian enablers.
Linda Featheringill
@geg6: #38
My brother!
Amir Khalid
@Cowbelle:
If you actually want to comment on that thread, I believe it’s still live.
B W Smith
@Sam Houston: For many years I managed a local program similar to what you describe. It was called JTPA, a public/private partnership funded by the feds with grants to the state. Public and private organizations submitted proposals for the funds. My private company offered on the job training with local employers and part of the employees salary was reimbursed during training. We also administered an at-risk youth program to teach job skills and assistance in finding part-time work. We also had an older workers program and referred to technical schools for specific training mainly in the medical field. We served mostly income eligible poor and laid off workers. In our area of Georgia, it was a huge success.
catclub
@dmsilev: “a partnership among countries committed to free enterprise and free trade.”
The Mexican drug cartels have already signed up!
LGRooney
As an MBA, let me just state, I am in full agreement.
One of the biggest blunders this country ever made was accepting the notion that business managers know better how to run an economy, a government, a military, etc.
An MBA is worthwhile when applied to its ostensible niche in managing a business. It MAY help in starting a business. It does not help with business strategy which should be left to economists and engineers and lawyers who are trained to think around issues and develop solutions in response to them. MBA is a linear way of thinking with a given tool set rather than the ability to create new tools. MBAs have even questionable utility in the financial investment field since too many of the given tools, mentioned above, are loaded with assumptions based on someone’s normative vision of rationality rather than the irrational real world.
Of course, there are exceptions but I want the MPAs running government not MBAs and I trust economists in the investment world rather than my fellow finance MBAs.
Another of the biggest blunders and intimately related to the MBA world and the disastrous state of so many workers who should have comfortably retired by now was the move from defined-benefit plans to investment accounts. Our country’s purchase of this notion did little more than transfer massive amounts of wealth from workers to the major shareholders of companies and the scam artists on Wall Street who think because they are managing more money that they are now kings of the world rather than beneficiaries of the greed at the top rungs where they now reside.
And yet another big blunder is the lack of a national health care system which again transfers massive amounts of money from the pockets of workers to the MBAs running the health care companies.
Unfortunately, I am a child of the suburbs and married to a city girl and father of a decidedly urban boy. Otherwise, I would move to a farm and go off grid and forget the whole friggin’ disaster.
Linnaeus
@Martin:
I’ve been pursuing one for the last 11 years or so. Which personality disorders might I have? It might be useful to know…
Chris
@Amir Khalid:
Dear God, you’re right. Six hundred and eighty five posts and climbing.
Think it’ll make it to seven hundred?
Jewish Steel
@Chad N Freude:
From DougJ’s thread from me to you:
@Chad N Freude: What? Shut up! You are reliably one of the wittiest posters here. I think you were gone for awhile? Or lurking? Or quiet? Glad to see you’re back.
The only kind of troll that bothers me is the grim, humorless ideologue. I can get that kind of action anywhere. I come here to smirk, titter at our collective folly. I get enough hand-wringing in in my day to day life, you know?
Barry
@Dennis SGMM: “This topic caused me to wonder why pols from both parties are concerned about creating uncertainty for business but neither party seems too concerned about creating uncertainty for potential retirees. ”
Because the ‘uncertainty’ theme is a pure lie. There wasn’t a wh*reson or wh*redaughter on the right who expressed fear of ‘uncertainty’ when the GOP was happily creating vast quantities of it.
PurpleGirl
@Sam Houston:
Excuse me? I’m an older American and I’ve been using a computer at work since at least 1984. I know word processing, I know how to use spreadsheets, I can create presentations using a word processor (PowerPoint has all those neat effects and animation shit but it’s a poor word processor, IMO.). I’ve used the Lexus/Nexus program and WestLaw.
What I need is for a company to not care about my age and to hire me. I’m too young to do early SS and I’ve run out my UI benefits. Not one f*cking call back to the all job applications. (I’m living on support from relatives, but its humiliating to ask for money.)
ETA: IF I can get a job, I’ll be working as long as I’m physically able to because I’ve used up my saving and retirement money to support myself. There ain’t nothing to fall back on. Sorry to some young worker but them’s the breaks. And a lot of older people are in the same boat as me.
seabe
And then there is ZERO ROOM for people like me. I graduated in 2011 with a degree in aerospace engineering from a college in the top 10. Not philosophy, not English, not history. And I can’t find an entry level job anywhere. Everything is in the 10-20 years of experience area. The old people aren’t leaving fast enough to open entry level positions. I have $50k in debt that needs to be paid starting this November…
martha
@Chris: Maybe they’ll all stay there and fight and whine among themselves and leave us alone.
catclub
I think Andrew Tobias could do something similar to “The Invisible Bankers” with MBA’s.
useless, but we are stuck with them, and they run the world!
Linda Featheringill
@PurpleGirl:
Don’t know where you are but have you looked into temporary work? ABSOLUTELY not ideal, but maybe you could bring in occasional money and be less dependent on your relatives.
catclub
@Barry: This.
Yet another GOP projection of its own behavior onto others.
geg6
@seabe:
No, you don’t have to actually do that in November if you’re proactive and smart. Call the Federal Student Loan Servicing Center (1-800-848-0979) and discuss your options for further deferments on any federally funded student loans (easy to get if you’re not employed and repayment hasn’t begun) or different payment options (graduated payments, income-based payments, etc.). I can’t help you get a job, but I can provide advice on how not to default.
PurpleGirl
@schlemizel – was Alwhite: The Marianas Islands, an American protectorate.
srv
@Linnaeus: After 11 years? All of them.
Judas Escargot
@Linda Featheringill:
I have no viable alternative, either. IMO the whole problem lies in the division between ‘capital’ and ‘labor’ in the first place– Marxism’s just the obverse side of Capitalism’s coin, with an even more dismal social justice record than what we have here. I have no idea how to address this, but I do now believe that the dream of a Third Way is now all but dead.
Peak Oil will inexorably force production to localize, sooner than most seem to realize– but, ironically, mass conversion of infrastructure (to help transfer to a post-oil world peacefully) requires decades of central planning and execution by smart people working within competent institutions.
The Rand virus has apparently rendered our culture incapable of this: Institutions are viewed with suspicion, and anyone whose first priority is anything but profit for profit’s sake has been utterly marginalized.
So, for now, we are good and stuck.
Keith G
We got where we are by having companies do labor-intensive operations to make their money. Of necessity, they were compelled the “share the wealth” including retirement planning. The fact that this has changed is not lost on most in the working class, but our politicians are a different matter.
Even Obama falls victim to wishful thinking, or seems to. Green jobs, freer trade, more PhDs or lower taxes will not rehabilitate post industrial America. To do the job that needs to be done, we need to redefine what American capitalism is and, frankly that maybe a near impossible task.
Dennis SGMM
@Barry:
Of course there was no concern from the right about uncertainty. The same for deficits. Now that both can be used as a tool to chip away at the social safety net, regulation, and taxes they’re all the rage.
seabe
@geg6:
Thanks, but I’m not going to default. I have enough saved to get me through an entire year’s worth of payments. I’m also going to start substitute teaching to bring in some cash on the side.
One thing I have going against me is that I don’t have a car. You know, because we’re too stupid to invest in public transit.
Also, $20k was private loans, so I have to start paying those whether I like it or not. My parents made too much for me to get enough federal aid to pay for it (and my college was quite cheap).
barath
@Keith G:
We have to move towards a steady-state rather than a growth-based economy. Richard Heinberg’s new book really goes into this topic in depth (and the draft is available online). But since we’re way above the consumption level we can sustain we first have to decrease our energy use massively and not all at once – it needs to be an ongoing process. I’ve been meaning to read Herman Daly’s books on how to structure a steady-state economy.
Frankensteinbeck
@Culture of Truth: and @PurpleGirl:
…wait, what? I’ve never heard about this. Where can I find out more?
Amanda in the South Bay
@seabe:
I’m sorry to hear that.
I often take the light rail that passes by the Lockheed Martin plant in Sunnyvale, CA, and I notice that many of the Lock Mart employees waiting there (they are easy to spot-older, white and they wear their fucking IDs outside of work) are much older than what you normally see at Silicon Valley tech companies (and whiter, I may add). I guess it doesn’t help that that particular degree seems to be very closely tied to the defense industry?
Chris
@Judas Escargot:
What somebody here called “state-promoted syndicalism,” to describe the liberal consensus in the West post-WW2, is the way out, but its weakness is that it relies on the working, middle and upper classes all working together. Unfortunately, the ruling class just couldn’t get enough.
But back to this sentence in particular:
That might just be the defining statement of the world we live in.
I get a sense that fewer and fewer people outside of the 27%ers actually believe the horseshit the GOP’s been spoon-feeding us, but no one sees an alternative. The consensus seems to be “they’ve won, and I don’t think the unions or the government or anyone else can do anything to change it, they’ll probably just make things worse.” Nobody believes anymore.
barath
@Judas Escargot:
This. Though I’m not sure it can only be achieved top down. I think there’s a lot of bottom-up or even state-level stuff that can be done as well. My current goal is to get Gov. Brown on board with decreasing California’s oil use by 5% per year until the point it is energy independent. Not sure how to get him and the legislature on board – it’d be great to brainstorm here…
PurpleGirl
@seabe: I feel sorry for you. I know a glass bead artist who was an aeronautical engineer and about ten years ago, the third company she’d worked for made an offer to buy her out (or she could wait and be laid off again). She took the buyout and began making glass beads full time and established a glass studio for herself. The field has been iffy for years now.
PurpleGirl
@martha: I went to bed early last night and missed the whole thing. (Thank the goddess.) When I opened the blog this morning and saw the length of those threads, I decided not to even start reading them.
seabe
@PurpleGirl:
The field itself is fine (unemployment is around 1.6%). The problem is the lack of entry level positions in a market of uncertainty and economic calamity…same as everywhere.
The real problem for me specifically, though, is that my original plans were dashed by Republicans and their budget slashing. I didn’t look for a job before I graduated because I was supposed to be going into the Peace Corps (was supposed to leave in August). Due to budget cuts, I couldn’t leave until June. Well, I can’t wait that long. So now I’m scrambling to find a job when most aren’t hiring entry level until next Spring.
Martin
@Comrade Javamanphil: I think you might prove the rule actually – anyone who might benefit from an MBA would never pay for it, and anyone who would pay for it won’t benefit from it.
Frankensteinbeck
@Keith G:
You gotta fix what’s in front of you, though. I think we do need some dramatic changes in our system, particularly reforming the stock system that rewards short-term gain. You can’t leap straight to those, though. You start by building up the infrastructure to support a better system – by encouraging green energy, education, and regulating the Hell out of industries.
Basically, you have to reverse the Reagan Revolution before we can move past it. The GOP has been chipping away at the foundations for the last 30 years.
PurpleGirl
@Frankensteinbeck: Google Jack Abramoff, Republican bagman.
Amanda in the South Bay
@seabe:
Hmm…if you ever want a degree related job in the future, I recommend putting off the Peace Corps. IIRC, when I had to fill out my security clearance paperwork in the Army, one thing that disqualified you (I can’t remember if it was for MI related MOSs or a security clearance issue specifically) was being in the Peace Corps. And a lot of aerospace engineering jobs require security clearances, I’d think.
bin Lurkin'
@PurpleGirl:
Heh, that was my reaction too.. My skillset is pretty deep also and no one is interested.
Also too, I made the mistake of responding to something someone posted in one of the jobs threads, I won’t do that again.
seabe
@Amanda in the South Bay:
I’ve asked to make sure, and it’s not a problem unless you plan to work for the CIA. Either way it doesn’t matter because I can’t afford to do it now anyway.
PurpleGirl
@seabe: Ah. The son of a friend, when he couldn’t find another computer-related job after being laid-off (two or three years ago???), entered the Peace Corps. I forget where he is and what he’s teaching, but he seems pleased with that choice.
A Mom Anon
Maybe we shouldn’t be Post-Industrial anymore. We could start with taking back some more of the local food supply. There’s other things we can do,but it’s the politicians and their paymasters that make it tough if not impossible in some places.
I was listening to the radio in the car yesterday and someone mentioned Brazil’s economy. Brazil makes it’s own computers,with Chinese parts mind you,but they have a deal with companies and those companies send the parts and the Brazilian people assemble,package and deliver them to local retailers within the country. Besides the usual suspects,what’s stopping us from doing stuff like that?
Sam Houston
@B W Smith: **applause**
@PurpleGirl: I’m 51 and havin’ fun. ;)
I have a PERFECT job for you! If my master plan is implemented then you are an ideal candidate for one of the teaching jobs!
Is it not logical to think older people would be better remedial and vocational teachers?
Martin
@seabe: Aerospace jobs are tough to get. Consider some alternate directions – look at the private aircraft field – there’s quite a bit more work there from small companies to magazines/market analysts, etc. Quite a few market analysts (most in fact) have engineering backgrounds. But a lot of these outfits are small and tend to get overlooked.
There’s still jobs in defense – particularly in UAVs and satellites (commercial isn’t totally dead there either), but the guys with really strong computer skills are very attractive there.
And it may not be the direction you’re looking to go in, but the hobbyist market isn’t doing too badly either, and it’s overlapping with the military stuff quite a bit – particularly in stationary flight, remote piloting, etc.
Good luck – and remember in aero location matters a lot more than most other fields.
Frankensteinbeck
@A Mom Anon:
Republicans. That was not a joke.
Keith G
@barath: I will be fascinated to learn more. Will our previous strength (large sloppy population with lots of churn) be a steady state weakness – or an impossibility?
seabe
@Martin: Yep, I’m applying everywhere I can. I’m not necessarily applying for aerospace jobs. I mean, a team-member on my design team who graduated summa cum-laude is now working in Salt Lake City for Hexcel, a composites firm. So it’s not directly with aerospace, but the composites are being used on the aircraft and wind turbines.
I’m applying for any engineering job that I can get all over the country. And yes, aerospace you’re stuck in Huntsville, Wichita, Texas, Virginia (where I’m currently located), or Seattle.
Keith G
@Frankensteinbeck: Can we find 300 politicians to buy in? This obviously will be a generational task (like removing slavery?) Can it be done without a bigger, clarifying crisis?
barath
@Keith G:
I’m hoping to learn more too, and hope Daly has useful ideas (though I’m not sure they’ll ever be implemented nationally).
Orlov has made an interesting case that things that are positives in good times are negatives in bad times. So for example the “efficiency” (ruthlessness) of our economic system is a vulnerability. Only a system that has fat to cut can survive when the fat is cut.
Linnaeus
@srv:
Ouch. You may be right. No worries, though; if this job market continues, maybe I’ll be dead soon and society will be relieved of the burden of my disorders.
Frankensteinbeck
@Keith G:
I really think the problem is getting the media to buy in. They could have a focus now, and we wouldn’t know. Horse Race Reporting is such a blight on our political system.
srv
@seabe: Given your interest in the Peace Corps and sub teaching, I presume you have some experience roughing it. Are you aware of the SCA (they work with Americorps, BLM, NPS, military/base contracts):
http://thesca.org/green-jobs/fieldbased/compliance-coordinator/seattle-wa
Martin
@A Mom Anon:
Our tax structure, mainly.
For anyone that wants to import computers into the US, there’s no added cost to the computer. For any company that wants to bring foreign profits into the US, they need to pay 35% on that, so US labor is 35% more expensive as a result.
This wasn’t a problem before, because foreign profits didn’t used to be that big for many US companies, but that’s where all the growth has been the last decade or so. For domestic profits, they already pay the 35%, so they have no disincentive to spending that money in the country, but if they are growing on their foreign profits, then the tax structure incentivizes them to keep that money abroad, which means they’re going to keep manufacturing, etc. abroad unless they can do it 35% cheaper or better in the US.
seabe
@srv: Well I’m mostly sub-teaching just to bring in some money while I apply for a “real job”. Also, I can’t afford to do anything that pays a small amount anymore that doesn’t have a real future in benefits (Peace Corps had many benefits upon getting out, such as federal competition, not to mention the stature that it holds). And looking at the qualifications, I don’t qualify. I’ve held a driver’s license for two weeks lol.
If I didn’t have any college loan debt, this wouldn’t be a problem. I could afford a substantially lower amount of pay. But $637 a month is like a mortgage.
Amir Khalid
@Chris:
It’s inching s l o w l y toward 700 (691 as I write this) but could still fall short.
Cowbelle
@Rey:
I’m all for getting along. I think that part of getting along is not calling other people worthless turd camp-followers or making up lies.
If you want more getting-along, talk to Anne Laurie. Maybe she’ll apologize for what she did and we can go back to getting along.
Gretchen
Count me in as one of the older folks who hobble in to work every night ( I work midnights) when I’d love to make way for one of the energetic kids and get a quiet part-time job. But the home equity I’d counted on doesn’t exist, and the savings are not so great either. The upside is, one of my daughters has a big basement – I wonder if she’d let me live there? The downside: my other three kids still live with me, despite being adults, and I’m sure she won’t let us all move in.
Gravie
Damn straight. I will be perfectly happy to bow out of the workforce to let someone younger take my place, as long as I can still expect to get medical care and to eat.
ericblair
@seabe:
My cousin graduated in aero engineering in Canada and went to work in the oil industry working with drilling rigs. Similar skillset. He did get a little tired of North Sea weather, with the sideways rain and all.
@Amanda in the South Bay:
I’d assume this was for an SCI investigation and the concern was foreign influence and the like from being in some interesting areas of the world, and not the Peace Corps itself. Otherwise, that’s way fucked up even for the Army. Generally, the intelligence community is supposed to be lightening up on the xenophobia nowadays, since they figured out that kicking out all of your foreign language and culture experts because they had actual experience with foreign languages and culture is kinda problematic.
lethargytartare
Anne –
you’re a shitty blogger, and I hate the way your cartoon cut-n-pastes make me have to use my scroll-wheel to get to the text that is so incoherent I shouldn’t bother.
Cathy W
@frankensteinbeck – if you want to learn more about the situation in the Northern Marianas, our own Dennis G knows quite a bit; he’s posted a bit about it here at BJ, and used to pretty regularly at the GOS (as dengre).
lou
@Rey: I watch HGTV’s House Hunters International to wistfully dream of relocating overseas after I retire. But it’s probably cat food otherwise during retirement.
Chad N Freude
@Jewish Steel: Thanks. I appreciate being appreciated. RE “reliably one of the wittiest posters here”*: I want to thank all the little people who comment here and make me look good.
I sometimes go for long periods without commenting for various reasons that need not concern us here.
*I have a close friend who, if I told him what you said, would say “WHAT?! Sure, Chad, Sure you are.”
Gin & Tonic
@seabe:
Posting in a dead thread may be futile, but I just read this and it intrigued me. My son is vaguely considering either State or CIA, but has also looked pretty seriously at Peace Corps. For the life of me I can’t imagine why serving in the Peace Corps would disqualify you from working for the CIA. Is it only that they want Peace Corps volunteers to be taken at face value and not spooks-in-training, or does the foreign exposure actually make anyone believe they become more of a security risk?
Less Popular Tim
@Gin & Tonic: I would have assumed it was because if you join the Peace Corps, you care about humanity, and you might not be sufficiently willing to use the little people as the pawns in the Great Game the CIA in engaged in, and you might have, like, messy feelings towards them as people and stuff. In other words, you are a DFH that can’t be a good soul-free spook.
Gin & Tonic
@Less Popular Tim: I’ve known people who have worked for the CIA, including at least one who had a semi-covert overseas assignment, never officially acknowledged by him or his family, even after his death (of natural causes, BTW) and none of them could be described as soul-free spooks. All were people of great intellectual curiosity and a genuine belief in old-fashioned American values, who joined for many of the same reasons which drive people to join the military. I’ve also known Peace Corps volunteers, who also joined for similar reasons. In my experience the two types are not nearly as disparate as you present.
Less Popular Tim
Thanks G&T, I’m sure that’s true. I was just wondering whether the people that run the CIA think that people who are interested in the Peace Corps empirically turned out to not be cut out for the CIA.
But I was definitely talking out my *ss, of that there is no doubt.