Elisa Elias Isquith on the death squads last night:
The audience seemed to be saying to the “liberal media” member, Brian Williams, that they approved of the death penalty—but not hesitantly or with reservation. No, they support the policy with full enthusiasm, enthusiasm of the sort that finds the very premise of Williams’s question to Perry (whether or not the latter has had sleepless nights over said executions) wrongheaded if not downright offensive. Their applause was a fascinating combination of “Fuck you, Williams” and “Go get ‘em, Rick!”
[….]What this brought to my mind, and this is no doubt because I’m still in the process of reading Corey Robin’s The Reactionary Mind, is how much the contemporary right-wing attitude in America today is self-consciously transgressive. Of course, its followers would unlikely describe themselves as rebels or radicals or pushers of the envelope; but their sincere belief that American society is dominated by out-of-touch, effete, liberal elites; and their even more strongly held desire to assert their values, their worldview, their moral code and thus free themselves from the liberal yoke—this all combines at times into an odd but coherent form of flipping the bird to social mores.
This goes to the whole right-wing shock-jock thing that is at the heart of modern conservatism: when you say offensive things as a winger, you’re not letting the librul man keep you down. Also too, I’ll ride without a helmet (even though I’m normally safety-conscious), I’m stocking up on those old light lights, etc. etc.
It’s a very important dynamic in conservative politics, but one that most establishment observers ignore.
geg6
Just another version of whatever pisses off the libtards most.
Gawd, these people are 3 year olds.
LittlePig
but one that most establishment observers
ignoreenthusiastically support.Fixx0red.
Davis X. Machina
Establishment observers, but not all observers.
Zifnab
This always just left me rolling my eyes.
“CFLs contain mercury! MERCURY! We could be poisoned!” says the guy who just defended abolishing the EPA and allowing factors to dump mercury into the groundwater wherever they damn well please.
singfoom
@geg6: You think that’s just a primary reason? I’m not saying I disagree, but I watched that clip, and those people are glad, excited that over 200 people were executed.
I think they were just voicing their blank approval of those deaths. Which I find fucking chilling.
Bob L
Told you Perry only had to own up to executing an innocent man because it was a cool and he would come out ahead. The American Right is all about the lizard hind brain.
Cat Lady
The only thing that’s changed with conservatives is that they’ve stopped using dog whistles cuz they’re able to use bullhorns. Thanks FAIL media and cable TV.
Corner Stone
“Balloon Juice of Ordinary Gentleman”
That doesn’t sound too homosexual does it?
Villago Delenda Est
@geg6:
Exactly.
Randism is basically a veneer of “rationality” to behaving precisely like a spoiled three year old.
“Mine, mine MINE!”
General Stuck
Libtards want to take away your freedom to say stupid offensive shit, so wingnuts say more of it, just to be free to say stupid and offensive shit. And the media wants to know the liberal plan to say stupid offensive shit that is more better stupid and offensive shit than the republicans say. And around we go.
Zagloba
In a complicated world, it’s a survival tactic to reduce your decision-making into a mind-free process of gut checks. Criminals bad. Killing criminals good.
The ones who believe in thinking things through eventually sequester themselves behind walls, coming out only when very large clocks tell them to.
Villago Delenda Est
@Zifnab:
They do not understand cause and effect.
They take the world around them for granted…that it always has been this way, and it always will be.
They imagine that 40 hour work weeks and time and a half for overtime has always been the American Way, with no need for those thug labor unions to push for them, because, naturally, employers see the benefit of such a system.
MattF
Transgressive and intolerant. Much more effective than Marcuse’s old ‘repressive tolerance’. Just intolerance, period.
Josh James
Pretty sickening, that applause … I commented on it here: http://writerjoshuajames.com/dailydojo/?p=2202
And I also called my Senator today … I got an email from him about how he champions the middle class … it pisses me off, more and more, to hear that … you cannot call for austerity measures and cut cut cut taxes and honestly call yourself a champion of the middle class … it’s simply not true.
FormerSwingVoter
You’re reading way too much into this. Take a look at the comment threads when an abortion doctor is murdered or a Democratic politician dies and the true right-wing reveals itself in all its horrible glory.
They honestly want to kill everyone they don’t like. The only reason they don’t is that they would go to jail for a long, long time. If you want to see how conservatives act when unrestrained by law, see the Jim Crow south.
Emma
The thing I’ve noticed most is that when it’s applied to them they bellow like castrated bulls. It’s all about the other. The brown and black people, no problem, then something like Waco happens and it’s a federal crime.
And save the “well Waco was different because…” bs. If that compound had been filled with Black Panthers they would be celebrating the assault every year.
chrismealy
I just finished “The Reactionary Mind”. It’s really great. Anybody who suspected that Burke, Oakeshott, etc are all just old assholes won’t be surprised by what they learn. I imagine Andrew Sullivan’s head would implode if he read it.
geg6
@singfoom:
Oh, no. I agree. They love them some killin’. Even more if the killed was brown of any shade.
Samara Morgan
Is this a liberal blog or not?
why link the LoOGies DougJ?
Have you forgotten Elias godwinned you?
theres enough nasty little embryo Douthats (aka “sane conservatives”) out there already, mastertroll.
dont you get it yet?
this is war, this is fight to the death thunderdrome and its US LIBERALS vs. THEM.
no more kumbayah.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
@geg6:
Long as it punches a hippie and sticks it to the reverse racists, don’tcha know.
Yutsano
It’s the theology of the Elect writ large. Those 200 people DESERVED to die because, well, if they didn’t, they wouldn’t be in that situation now would they? And it certainly wasn’t happening to the AUDIENCE, so why should they give a fuck about some poor schmucks?
JGabriel
DougJ, typos not normally a big deal, but I think Elias might object to being called Elisa?
.
Samara Morgan
@Corner Stone: heh
i think there is waaaaaay too much homoerotic tension between the LoOGIES and DougJ and Mistermix.
is this blog gay or what?
note: wowspeak, not gay bashing.
Tomjones
Whatevs. Like Demoncrats don’t cheer the thousands of abortions happening on Obama’s watch.
/Perryonista
Mike Goetz
It shouldn’t have, but that applause truly shocked me, chilled me to the bone.
I admit I am a very fervent Obama supporter, so take this how you will, but not voting for him is to enable evil.
Period.
Samara Morgan
@JGabriel: i think it was a freudian slip.
:)
Terry
there are Conservatives and then there are Regressives.
Why do we let those people keep the label of conservative when what they are is regressive. The time may be right to try to make that label stick.
Villago Delenda Est
@chrismealy:
Could not happen to a more deserving sack of tory shit.
Samara Morgan
Chumad DougJ?
im sry i crushed freddies little pointy head in again, but i just can’t stop myself.
everyday im shufflin.
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan: No. One. Cares. Now go away.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
@Yutsano:
I distinctly remember a quote along those lines, about how if you’re in jail or in custody, by definition you couldn’t be innocent, or otherwise you would never have been arrested? Anyone got an idea of the exact quote or context with that, I feel like it was a fairly recent and relevant quote.
cleek
i wish this was the case.
but: name the last openly anti-death penalty Democratic Presidential candidate.
it’s not just them. and it’s not about us.
people really do dig the death penalty. it has > 60% support right now.
Samara Morgan
@Terry: LOL
they are conservatives.
that is what conservatism has evolved into.
singfoom
@Yutsano:
Well, here’s the thing. I’m ambivalent about the death penalty, personally, but there are some crimes that I can accept the death penalty for. Now, personally, I think that it’s much crueler to keep someone locked up for life with no chance for parole.
So I can accept the idea that those prisoners deserved to die. But even then, I would never applaud at the death of a person, nor can I understand anyone clapping for that… That’s some serious low class lack of human decency.
Yutsano
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik: I know what you’re talking about, and I’ve heard it too recently, but for the life of me don’t know the source. It was definitely the inspiration for my comment. I wanna say it was a winger blogger but don’t quote me on that. (Ha!)
LittlePig
@Mike Goetz:
That’s been true for every Democratic Presidential candidate since George McGovern. Ike was the last civilized Republican president; all since have been robber-baron enabling thugs.
Special Patrol Group
As the Medium Lobster noted last May, “America Pleased With Killing of Thing.”
Mike Goetz
@singfoom:
I hear you. I don’t support the death penalty, but I can see how and why people could. But the applause…
Gruesome.
jwb
@cleek: There’s a big difference between supporting the death penalty on a poll question and cheering it on as happened in the debate last night.
The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik
@jwb:
In other words: the debate crowd weren’t fans of the death penalty. They were homers.
EconWatcher
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik:
Ed Meese, Reagan’s Attorney General, said something to the effect that criminal suspects aren’t innocent–if they were, then they wouldn’t be suspects. Not recent, but that may be what you’re thinking of.
I found it so charming at the time, I still remember it a quarter of a century later.
Mike Goetz
@LittlePig:
Agreed. I’ve always voted straight-ticket Democratic, in most cases as a negative judgment on the barbaric nihilists on the other side. They must never be allowed to run things again.
Yutsano
@Mike Goetz: It’s hard to exile a party to the political woods when they keep winning things. Of course having your own propaganda organ helps. My kingdom for Roger Ailes to have a heart attack tomorrow. I’ll even take the bullshit hagiographies as long as he keels over.
jwb
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik: Yes, they were treating the death penalty like entertainment or a sporting event. At this rate I’m wondering which candidate will be the first to advocate the return of public executions.
cleek
@jwb:
yeah, i suppose you’re right.
but it’s a little hard to feel like the target of wingnut jeers when the majority of your party supports the same thing the wingnuts do.
EconWatcher
Many decent people “believe in” the death penalty, because they think we should be able to get even with monsters like Ted Bundy. And really, as a purely philosophical question, it’s tough to say that it’s morally wrong in all circumstances: Did Israel commit a moral wrong by hanging Eichmann?
But as they say, support for the death penalty in the US is a mile wide and an inch deep. I think most people, if informed of the facts, would recoil at the routinized way it’s been used, for example in Texas in the late 90s, when they were sometimes doing several executions per night in the same death chamber. And I think most people want it reserved for the worst of the worst–child murderers and such.
But the crew who were cheering Perry? Chilling, indeed. There’s a real hint of fascism there.
jwb
@Yutsano: Surely Ailes has taken the trouble to train the next generation. It would be awesome, however, if his ego wouldn’t allow him to do that, or that it turns out that he wasn’t very good at training.
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: hahaha
i think DougJ is mad.
this is a great blog. i luffed the whole AL/ABL/DougJ/smackdown.
im a fan of creative destruction.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@FormerSwingVoter:
I’ve been saying for a long time that with the Southern Strategy run out to its logical conclusion, US politics is now effectively a sublimated civil war continued by other less violent means, but nobody seems to want to listen. Jeeze, you’d think the whole “Culture War” phrase was enough of a tipoff, but apparently not.
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: whatchu mean homes?
The juicitariat is in continuous bitch mode because liberals are whimps an cant message.
Now we have DougJ linking Isqueef who FUCKING GODWINNED HIM>
its like discipline bondage.
hahaha
hey…membah when asiangirlman was gonna bunk with the LoOGies?
cuz i do.
Elizabelle
Didn’t watch the GOP debate last night.
Just watched the clip of audience applauding Perry during death penalty question.
What stood out for me: Perry’s repeated use of the word “citizen” – not resident, or person. “If you kill one of our citizens….”
Here’s the transcript, and I apologize for not knowing how to link it within a comment.
(APPLAUSE)
(APPLAUSE)
Perry’s victims are children, police officers, citizens. Period. Williams is the only person to use the word “people.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/us/politics/08republican-debate-text.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
jibeaux
@cleek: Dukakis was, I think. And yes, I know how that turned out. But there is a difference between tepid support and cheering on. Abolitionists like to call death penalty support a mile wide and an inch deep, I don’t know if they’re right about that or not but I have to hope that the number of exonerations brought to light will someday, somehow, change something, for pete’s sakes.
handsmile
While fiction may offer a welcome respite from the world’s maelstrom, Sinclair Lewis’s It Can’t Happen Here becomes a bit more prophetic with each passing day.
The howling support for Rick Perry’s advocacy of state-sanctioned execution and GOP tolerance of violent behavior inflicted upon those deemed to be “other”(outlined above by FormerSwingVoter #15) is prefigured by Lewis’s “fable” of how fascism may arise and unfold in this country.
Well worth reading, with a strong stomach.
waldo
The saddest thing is the other candidates, in true Pavlovian fashion, will feel compelled to up the ante with their own death-penalty applause lines. If they can suggest a way to make executions more palpably cruel or agonizing, well, so much the better. Probably just a matter of time before Huntsman (the sane one) threatens to go medieval on retarded death-row convicts.
rlrr
@The Snarxist Formerly Known as Kryptik: Ed Meese used to say something along those lines…
cleek
@jibeaux:
hope. yup.
i’m still not convinced that libs were the target of the applause. simple lizard brain enthusiasm for a tough guy being tough against the evil-doers seems sufficient. i dunno. the wingnut brain is a fascinating thing…
Special Patrol Group
Oh, and for the record, that dumbfuck asshole’s job description at the time:
You can’t make this shit up.
danimal
Dear President Obama,
The GOP is determined to oppose your jobs bill scheduled for unveiling tonight. In fact, they are determined to oppose anything you propose for the next 15-63 months. You need a new game plan.
This is why I suggest that you announce the “Don’t Drink Bleach” public safety campaign. Drinking bleach is dangerous and can be fatal, according to documented scientific facts. You can be assured the conservatives, angling to defy your
blacknesspresidential over-reach, will be on camera drinking bleach within hours. You will reduce political opposition, increase the national IQ and perform a valuable public service for those who pay attention to “facts” and “science.” I don’t see a downside.Don’t Drink Bleach!
bkny
@waldo: and obama will be a pussy for not endorsing public hangings…
one of the more disturbing things is watching msnbc all morning and there’s been no mention of this (at least that i’ve seen); and no effort by the chatterbunnies to correct the deliberate lies and distortions they made. halperin actually said this morning that the time between these ‘debates’ will allow perry to refine his response to the climate change/social security comments.
Special Patrol Group
Put funnier:
FlipYrWhig
@jibeaux:
I doubt it. I think it will simply become, “OK, that may be true, but I still support the death penalty for the guilty ones.” And the CSI effect, not to mention Nancy Grace, leads people to feel like evidence is always clear, judgment is always easy, and that the only people who feel otherwise have been duped or guilted into that view, because the obvious right course is Justice For Kaighleigh-Aschleeyie-whoever, meaning, kill the fucker and settle the score.
rlrr
@danimal: or Drano…
jibeaux
@cleek: I know it’s just because I reside in the reality-based community and all, but I don’t know how you could learn about a case in which a guy was convicted of a murder, in which the timeframe for death fit entirely within a period of time in which said convicted murderer was in jail in another state, and not give some consideration to whether or not executing convicted murderers is a fantastic idea. But as I understand the dodge, it’s to say “See! The system worked!”
rlrr
@danimal:
How about a “Don’t Mix Bleach and Ammonia” public safety campaign?
Mike Goetz
If you get a chance, pick up James Nesbit’s novel Lethal Injection, about a death row doctor in Texas. It’s a good record of the spiritual erosion brought on by that gruesome occupation.
jak
Brian Williams is anything but a liberal.
Special Patrol Group
Also funny:
fleeting expletive
I almost got into a disturbing facebook exchange with my SIL (oh, the stories I could tell!) the other night. She posted something about the SCOTUS decision allowing protests at military funerals, something something First Amendment, my Second Amendment rights. I replied that of course such speech is offensive and nasty, but that is what the military is defending, i.e., freedom of speech.
She said she hoped some of those protesters would come onto her property and she would gladly blow them away.
It kept me up that night, the idea that someone I’ve known for almost four decades fantasizes about shooting people for what they say. At least she qualified it by specifying on her property. I almost never have to see this branch of the family, for which I am grateful.
jibeaux
@FlipYrWhig: Oh, you may be right, but I mention it because I believe, of the various arguments against the death penalty, that it’s the strongest for people who would otherwise believe in it. The depressing result is that after quite a few high profile exonerations from Innocence Commissions, and I was proud to volunteer for our state’s while in law school, it makes some people say “that’s great! Now we can have more faith that the system is working, because the innocence commission will catch the ones who don’t deserve to be there.” Big, big sigh.
slippy
@jwb: I’ve noticed that extremists in one generation often spawn their exact opposites in the next. Just as examples see Ron Reagan and Patti Davis (both children of Nancy & The Fucking Gipper) are very outspokenly liberal.
Sometimes that kind of crap backfires spectacularly.
Anya
@cleek: I agree with you. I think if we were still doing public executions we would have had many people watching it happen live. I won’t be surprised if some asshole at Fox champions televised public executions.
wrb
I skipped the debate last night. Skimming through some conservative comments this morning I’m given to understand that Perry was so masterful that we can skip this whole election business. Obama should just hand him the keys to the country now, relieving himself and the country of a lot of bother, and he and we should just be thankful that someone so capable has come forth wipe away all our troubles and shoulder our burdens.
Was he really that awesome?
danimal
@rlrr: @rlrr: Good ideas.
Perhaps a “don’t put a gun to your temple and pull the trigger” campaign as well. Second amendment remedies, liberal style.
FlipYrWhig
@jak: Seriously. Brian Williams is a somewhat likeable personality who’s a smidgen too ugly for Hollywood and just short of completely vacuous. The fact that he has anything to do with the production and consumption of “news” is shameful.
Marc
@cleek:
That is actually changing for the better, however. The Innocence Project had a real impact; states like Illinois are moving away from the death penalty. Gun control, on the other hand…
Dr J
Those of us on the left who argue against the death penalty because it is discriminatory– it is clear that this is viewed as a feature, not a bug. And if they are innocent? Well, they are probable guilty of something, otherwise they wouldn’t be on death row. No great loss.
FlipYrWhig
@wrb: Rick Perry would probably make a good power-conference football coach. All catchphrases and promises to kick ass.
catclub
@Zagloba: Anathem!
The evolution of Christian thought (!?) claims this path:
Before Judaism, ‘justice’ consisted of unlimited revenge.
Judaism introduced Justice as ‘an eye for an eye’ but the key is, no more. Just justice. And this IS an improvement over unlimited revenge.
Christianity says that given how bad people really are, if you get justice at the last judgement, things will go really badly there. What you want is mercy. Now go and apply _that_ to your life and dealings with others.
So Perry says the audience understands justice. Yeah, right.
catclub
@wrb: “and shoulder our burdens.” … onto the messican lawn guy.
Elizabelle
@FlipYrWhig:
You hit it. Male sexuality and football coach authority.
Their team against the world.
FlipYrWhig
@Marc:
Well, that’s just because the Constitution explicitly protects the right to bear arms, and, from what I understand, is totally silent on the matter of what punishments are, shall we say, cruel or unusual.
Kane
The same people who were falling all over their fainting couch and who were OUTRAGED over the fiery campaign rhetoric from James Hoffa, are the same people who joyfully cheer executions.
FlipYrWhig
@Elizabelle: Come to think of it, he even looks like Nick Saban.
Marc
I hate to give the devil his due, but
http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/08/the-rick-perry-experiment/
Douhat has a pretty similar take on Rick Perry.
By the way, columns like this are a strong clue that Perry may be a bridge too far for the establishment.
wasabi gasp
My UPS guy thinks people should be killed. He believes the leachers of society should be taken out and that this task should be undertaken by the government in order to perform it with efficiently and with as little public chaos as possible.
Except for this, he seems like a nice guy.
Samara Morgan
@Marc:
douthats and embryo douthats agree.
big surprise.
:)
why does this blog have to suffer DougJ and Mistermix in their endless quest for “sane conservatives”?
if they were sane, they wouldn’t be conservatives.
wasabi gasp
There may be something wrong with the comment editor. I was denied permission to edit my own comment.
Edit: for some reason I am able to edit this comment, but was denied permission to edit my last.
Samara Morgan
you win the thread CS.
:)
catclub
@Marc: Clue, perhaps.
But plenty of waffle room for Douthat to be convinced that Perry is HIS manly man, too.
Certainly no unequivocal statements of disapproval.
PK
I saw Rick Perry speak for the first time for a few mins (have completely ignored him so far). He comes across as so fake, so utterly and completely stupid, vapid and moronic. His fake drawl disgusts me, I want to take a leaf blower to that hair, and slap him across the face. He lost no sleep over executing 234 people? He is a soulless ghoul. I hope he is the nominee, because we need to either face evil and defeat it or finally accept that the nation has no soul and is not worth saving.
ppcli
I expect that this was just because she has the idea that if someone is on your property uninvited, and you kill them, you can’t be charged with anything.
wrb
@Samara Morgan:
It is a sport and and adventure, like exploring the bayous for the ivory billed Woodpecker or the himalayas for the snow leopard. There used to be so many of them. Mussent there be a dimly-lit cypress grove or secret glacier-rimmed valley where their wild cries can still be heard. Can they be gone forever?
Capri
@FlipYrWhig: Actually, the CSI effect usually helps the accused person. Juries now think the type of fiction that happens on all the CSI/NCIS type shows is what is realistically possible. “If this guy did it, why didn’t they pull fingerprints off the bullets and find trace DNA evidence of matching carpet fibers?”
Many lawyers now have to go to great lengths to neutralize the jury’s expectation that every crime can be backed up by reams of trace evidence conformation.
ppcli
@Marc: I didn’t even manage to complete two full paragraphs before I found this gem of spin:
Sell outs and compromises? What the hell did Bush ever compromise on? I suppose these guys count TARP as a “sell out and compromise”, but what else? I remember reading Free Republic all through the Bush era and that guy was worshiped by the hard core right to the very end. Are we to assume that the 27% who supported Bush even in his last months were anything but core Republicans? Look Douthat – you guys broke 2000-2008, so now you own it. Don’t try to pretend you had mental reservations all along.
cleek
@ppcli:
abortion. FISA. Medicare drug plans. allowing his advisers to testify in front of the 9/11 commission. Iraq spending. his desire to classify Congressional briefings.
those were from the first 10 of 2,300,000 Google results for “Bush compromises”.
from the next 10:
gas and oil drilling regulations. environmental regs. the Vieques Navy training facility. his famous tax cuts. his education bill.
yadayadayada
the idea that Bush, or any president, ever got “all he wants” is utter nonsense.
ThatLeftTurnInABQ
@ppcli:
A short list:
NCLB (yeah we know it wasn’t the liberal bill they like to pretend, but still, it had Ted Kennedy cooties on it. ewww!)
The Harriet Myers nomination
Immigration Reform
Not listening to Dick Cheney after the 2006 election
TARP
But most of all “Sell outs and compromises” is a dogwhistle for the GOP not wanting to take responsibility for W’s budget busting fiscal malpractice (Medicare Part D giveaway, tax cuts during 2 wars, etc.) by pretending that they weren’t behind him every step of the way backing him to the hilt thru all of it. Which is of course a monstrous lie, but then this is the right we are talking about; they lie, fabricate and slander in their sleep.
greennotGreen
@Capri: On the other hand, I watch a disturbing amount of true crime TV, and I find it rather shocking that people are sometimes convicted of crimes on very flimsy forensic evidence. Or poorly interpreted forensic evidence, like the guy who was convicted based on a bite mark that showed teeth he didn’t even have.
FlipYrWhig
@Capri: Hmm, interesting. I would have thought that shows like that demonstrate the super-spectacular competence of cops and crime labs, making all guilt ascertainable by science and hence making it harder to doubt that what the state says is debatable. But maybe not, and the real-life state and its agents look incompetent by comparison to the superhero versions on TV…
Samara Morgan
@wrb: hunting for sane conservatives today is like hunting for snipe or jackalope.
Either they never existed or they are extinct.
i think they never existed.
show me the fossil record!
Howlin Wolfe
That’s why it’s patriotic to: own a gun; smoke tobacco (especially cigarettes); drive a vehicle that is a lot bigger than it needs to be, and pay lots of money to fill up its gas tank; eat lots of meat; listen to bad music; and on and on. Part and parcel of the anti-intellectualism of the wingnut mind.