Here’s James Fallows on, as he puts it, the sexiness of infrastructure.
The post gives a couple of examples of what it’s like to live with decaying infrastructure. One of the cases Fallows considers is the possible role of a failure in the Russian air safety system in the crash this week that killed the Lokomotiv hockey team — a meditation that should strike fear into the heart of anyone flying under the gaze of a GOP-gutted FAA.
Fallows’ conclusion:
…the kinds of investments Obama was talking about constitute real wealth for a country, and their lack means real squalor, even though they are “public” wealth rather than belonging to anyone in particular.
Well, yeah.
The only truly astonishing aspect to what’s a very moderate post in both tone and content is that there is any controversy at all over a proposal to spend free dollars to rebuild America.
Image: New York City municipal airports, WPA poster, ca. 1937.
Nevgu
So turns out Captain Doom John Chicken Little Galt Buffett Cole writes articles for GOPolitico. Or at least someone who thinks exactly like him.
http://theobamadiary.com/2011/09/10/ah-gopolitico/
jwb
@Nevgu: Even by the standards of BJ, that’s one obtuse comment.
Davis X. Machina
Too many of those free dollars would go to reliably-Democratic-voting, prevailing-wage-earning, union-joining, city-dwelling workers who don’t look a lot like you or I, if you catch my drift.
Now if those free dollars were to go to executives in the finance-insurance-real-estate sector, that’d be different. Ain’t that America?
Villago Delenda Est
The problem with infrastructure investment is that it promotes the general welfare.
And the Galtian overlords, and their gaggle of natural serf supporters, loathe the general welfare with the heat of 1,000 suns.
Poopyman
I used to be astonished. Now I’m just depressed.
Mino
Republicans are living for the day they can sell off infrastructure to friends for pennies. And not just Republicans–see Chicago and parking meters.
agrippa
It seems that we have forgotten ( or ever understood very well) that there is such a thing as ‘public wealth’. There are costs involved in that willed ignorance.
Mino
@Nevgu: Did his rant go completely over your head?
Or is your snark going completely over mine?
Elizabelle
I love that poster. Glorious.
We have squalor in our public discourse, squalor in our ambitions, squalor in our concern for our fellow citizens, Christians that we are.
Squalor of poverty of generous impulse and looking out for the benefit of the whole community.
More to the point: too many people have allowed squalor to be the default result. Now it’s hitting home.
Roger Moore
@Mino:
Neither. You’re responding to a troll who constantly says about the same stupid shit every time he shows up. Facts don’t actually matter to trolls, so there’s no purpose in pointing out how dumb his comment is. DNFTT.
SiubhanDuinne
I have never been able to wrap my mind around the idea that we shouldn’t invest — and invest big! — in our infrastructure. In the short term, it’s lots of jobs. In the medium and longer terms, it’s the health, safety, efficiency, convenience and well-being of every one of us.
Water and sewage treatment. Decently-built schools and hospitals. Well-maintained roads and bridges. Railroads and power grids. Regular inspections of everything from our food to our airplanes. I just don’t get it. Why would anyone be opposed to these?
currants
Yar. Maddow has been calling infrastructure sexy for like ever since when! (see: when she was on Countdown, and later when her own teevee show began)
A Mom Anon
I love those old WPA posters,I wish I could find some that didn’t cost a fortune. I also like the old National Parks ones from that time too.
I have never understood the concept of letting infrastructure rot. I guess part of our public conciousness has been wiped away by a lack of knowing our own history. Most people don’t know or have simply forgotten what it took to build all those things and how awful life would be if they failed. Softness and ignorance doesn’t make for a healthy nation. I think we take an awful lot for granted,until it fails and we can’t shower or get where we need to go. I have no idea how you fix that-our mental infrastructure.
SiubhanDuinne
@Villago Delenda Est:
How do they reconcile their loathing of the ” general welfare” clause with their slavish adherence to the “original” Constitution?
Nevgu
I see my furry little groupies are trying to put words in my mouth again.
Mino, the fact of the matter is Cole voted for Bush twice. Anyone who voted for Bush twice is either clinically retarded or a complete moron. I can NEVER have any respect for a complete moron. And Cole proves what an idiot he is every time he posts one of his childishly simplistic opinions that all war is bad therefore end all war. Or that the stock market is down today because [insert todays shiny object pet peeve]. Again, all childishly simplistic views of the world which is exactly what I would expect from a twice bush voting Greenwald fluffer.
Davis X. Machina
@SiubhanDuinne: Why would anyone be opposed to these?
It Costs Money. My money. That I earned.
Solipsism, not that perverted travesty of Calvinist Christianity that first comes to mind, is our state religion.
arguingwithsignposts
@A Mom Anon:
If you can find a high resolution version online, you can print your own (at least on a smaller scale unless you have access to a poster printer). They’re public domain, as are all the WW2 posters. The Smithsonian (I think) tries to charge upwards of $100 for a high-res scan download for some of them, which is – quite frankly – bullshit.
If you’re looking for originals, that’s a different story.
Corner Stone
@currants:
Maddow said something recently so she’s been voted off the island.
SiubhanDuinne
@currants:
RM has a great promo spot on MSNBC shot at the Hoover Dam. She says (paraphrasing) “A person can’t do this. A company can’t do this. A state can’t even do this. It takes a country to do something like this.”
MikeJ
@A Mom Anon:
When you start with the idea that government is evil you do your best to make it come true. You have the added benefit of demoralizing people who want to make things better. They finally say “fuck it”, give up, and go home.
Cacti
This is one of the areas where I think American religiosity is dangerous to our future.
“America is special and blessed by God,” ergo, everything will always work out for us. Even if we have collapsing bridges, dilapidated roads, an outdated power grid, etc., we’ll always be at the top of the heap.
GregB
Remember the good old days when big dollar infrastructure programs in Iraq weren’t even debated?
I seem to recall that President Bush even had money for an Iraqi stimulus program after the surge.
A Mom Anon
@arguingwithsignposts: I could never afford originals,but would LOVE to own some of them.I’m surprised no one has reprinted them in standard poster size(24×36) and sold them for 15 or 20 bucks a pop. I’d buy them in a minute. I don’t have access to a poster printer,not a decent one anyway.I’ll make a search for those one of my winter projects.
cleek
@A Mom Anon:
here ya go!
BruceFromOhio
Oddly, I was thinking the same thing.
BruceFromOhio
@cleek: Wow. WOW! It’s like a .. time machine. Exceptional, thank you for linking!
WereBear
My italics, because I just go with “ALL” myself.
SiubhanDuinne
@Corner Stone:
What do you mean? surely she wasn’t fired or suspended, was she?
arguingwithsignposts
@SiubhanDuinne: I think that was a snide remark that she’s not welcome in BJ land. Whatever.
BruceFromOhio
@Davis X. Machina:
This has pretty much been the root cause in my conversations with local teahdist/repugs. Anecdotally, ymmv.
My splendid bro-in-law, independent business man, pretty middle of the road conservative, ranted on an on about how much he and his business are taxed. When I told him that “I don’t mind paying for civilization” and rattled off a bunch of unsexy infrastructure examples, he pretty much shut right up, which I have learned is comparable to agreement.
So I think there’s a tiny sliver of hope for the conservatives brave enough to resist the flag-waving knee-jerk assholery so amply displayed by the leadership. That there appear to be too few to make a difference is troubling, and motivating those that are still capable of rational thought is nearly impossible. Beloved Bro wouldn’t vote for McCain, but he wouldn’t vote for Obama either, and reliably votes R in the congressional and local contests. Swinging that vote with the unsexy infrastructure argument is just one of many possibilities.
I just hope its not too late for maintaining our parks, roads, bridges, FAA, etc.
SiubhanDuinne
@BruceFromOhio:
Ooooh. I see exactly what you did there.
Mino
@cleek: Oh, man, it breaks my heart.
Canuckistani Tom
The plane is a DC-3, but I’m not sure about the flying boat. I think it’s a Sikorsky S-42.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC-3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_S-42
Dennis SGMM
@cleek:
Go, cleek! I looked through the site that you linked and found the poster featured above.
LINK
Villago Delenda Est
@SiubhanDuinne:
Pretty much the same way that David Koch resolves his hatred of “egalitarianism” (his problem with Obama, he says, is that Obama is an “egalitarian”) with his love for the Declaration of Independence, which starts out with that “all men are created equal” stuff…
A Mom Anon
@cleek: Thanks! Just a quick search on Amazon had some results too. I have a spare bedroom that I’m remaking into a sewing/craft room and have been looking for something for the walls in there. I got hooked on the WPA period of American history after reading a book called America Eats about the WPA writer’s project.From there I started reading about the National Parks history and stumbled upon the parks posters and loved them. If I ever win the lottery I swear I’d love to try finding and buying the Writer’s Project books for each state.
jwb
@arguingwithsignposts: I think it’s a reference to RM calling Obama “the boy king.”
becca
@Villago Delenda Est: Ah, yes…
Ermine stoles for me.
Hair shirts for thee.
SiubhanDuinne
I just had an idea. Remember that movie A Day Without a Mexican? Someone should put together a movie called A Day Without Infrastructure. Or, A Day Without Government. Show in an immediate, graphic, dramatic way what happens if the electric grid breaks down and there’s no one to fix it. What happens when the stop signs and traffic lights disappear, and there are no police to deal with the inevitable car crashes. What happens when rotten meat, tainted vegetables, and germ-laden water are on every dinner table.
You could just call it Life in Somalia, I suppose, but it would be more entertaining to show it happening to Limbaugh and the Koch brothers.
Roger Moore
@A Mom Anon:
It’s a question of immediate vs. delayed gratification. Infrastructure doesn’t rot in one day, one year, or one term of elected office. There’s a huge temptation for politicians to take money that should be spent on maintenance and spend it on something sexier that will help their chances of reelection more. Especially with term limits, the politicians know they’re not going to be around to take the blame when their short term decisions result in disaster. It’s one of the reasons we have things like highway trustfunds: to make it harder for politicians to move money from necessary but unsexy maintenance to something more exciting.
Dennis SGMM
To many Americans, infrastructure isn’t sexy because they rarely think about it until something goes wrong. They’ve grown up with decent roads, safe bridges, water, power, sewage, etc. and they take it for granted that it’s always been there for them so it will always be there. They aren’t interested in the fact that it’s always been there because people have been paying taxes for generations to build and maintain these things. “I got my water, I got my roads, so I get pissed when anyone says I gotta’ shell out any more money for taxes to pay for roads and shit.”
Villago Delenda Est
@SiubhanDuinne:
The problem with the libertarian paradise that is Somalia is that it’s populated by brown mooslim people, therefore it’s hardly a paradise.
Now, if you filled with good white Christian Paulistas, then it would be a paradise!
arguingwithsignposts
@Dennis SGMM:
They also don’t know that it hasn’t always been there (eg, the Eisenhower highway system, national parks, Hoover dam, TVA, etc.)
Roger Moore
@Villago Delenda Est:
Great! When are they leaving for their paradise?
Jager
@SiubhanDuinne: Rush would have one hell of a time getting over to West Palm to pick up his prescriptions if the Palm Beach bridges fell into the Intracoastal.
Villago Delenda Est
@Jager:
Oh, I’m sure a helicopter would provide an airdrop. Oh wait, that needs infrastructure to support, too. Guess he’s screwed.
B W Smith
@Roger Moore: Well, I did read a few weeks back that some are building their very own cities on rigs in international waters. Personally, it can’t come soon enough.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@Dennis SGMM:
I dunno if that’s it exactly. People have been paying to build new, but once it’s there, you’ve got a grace period before the cost of maintenance starts to go up. Think of the repairs on a new car vs. a 20-year old one.
The US has been coasting on the new construction from the 30s through the 70s or so. Concrete lasts 50 years, and its time running out for a lot of infrastructure.
Water and sewer pipes are the ones that worry me the most.
SiubhanDuinne
@Jager:
Well, now, see? You’ve just written the scenario for a pivotal scene in my movie!
Madeline
@A Mom Anon: Me too on the WPA books. Here’s a place that has reproductions of the national parks posters. Ranger Doug
Jager
A friend’s immigrant Swede grandfather was a bricklayer. He built, over the years, a formidable construction company. His company built schools, college buildings, state and federal buildings and libraries. For over 50 years old Sander’s company was a partner with the taxpayers providing in 100’s of good jobs and quality construction. Most of the buildings are still in use and look great…that’s pretty sexy, isn’t it? And when construction was slow, he found things for his core group of employees to do, “cause der famlies, need ta eat, ya know”!
cckids
@A Mom Anon: You can also get repros of the old National Parks posters at many National Parks gift shops–I know Zion and Bryce both have them.
nick1936
FDR knew how to beat a depression and he did it in face of opposition from the filty rich and the Repuk’s what a guy.
nick1936
FDR knew how to beat a depression and he did it in face of opposition from the filty rich and the Repuk’s what a guy.
Jager
@SiubhanDuinne: You’re welcome! Now imagine Rush in withdrawal and the batteries in his hearing aids go dead…talk about spittle on the EIB microphone!
nick1936
Rush a Drug Abusing Junkie giving orders and having them obeyed by the Orange speaker of the house John Boehner.
BGK
I wonder if there’s any data on time to recovery of service for investor-owned/commercial electric utilities versus customer-owned cooperatives after the recent storms and flooding? Strictly anecdotal, but I know our quasi-socia1ist electric cooperative had the lights back on after the 2004 and 2005 hurricanes in half the time as FPL just across the river. Plus they do that for a penny less per kWhr, and we get a dividend check at the end of the year.
Marginally on-topic: utility linemen are the goddam Batmen of infrastructure. I’m never less than astonished to see the conditions in which they work, which would probably have me hiding under the bed.
licensed to kill time
@SiubhanDuinne:
You probably already know about this series, but Life After People on the History Channel imagines what happens to buildings, cities, bridges once there are no humans around to maintain them.
I find it kind of weirdly comforting that nature takes over so quickly.
Dennis SGMM
Almost on topic: I showed the poster featured above to my beloved wife and she likes it – a lot. We ordered the 22X17 version from Vintagraph, the site that cleek so helpfully found.
WereBear
This is why wingnuts hate history. They are always on the wrong side.
Dennis SGMM
@licensed to kill time:
See: Detroit, Michigan. Parts of that city have reverted to prairie. It’s like we were never there.
FlipYrWhig
I thought that conservatives weren’t opposed to infrastructure spending, but rather figured that the government would have plenty of money to pay for it already if not for the way they squander it on various forms of “welfare.” They don’t support _new_ spending for infrastructure, because governments should just be spending what they have on hand. They envision a huge chunk of public spending being doled out to ingrates, moochers and parasites. If the government would just cut _them_ off, everything would be fine, but they won’t, because of corruption and political correctness. It’s totally ass-backwards, but I genuinely think that it’s the basis of the contemporary American conservative perspective.
MariedeGournay
@Davis X. Machina:
Mammon led them on–
Mammon, the least erected Spirit that fell
From Heaven; for even in Heaven his looks and thoughts
Were always downward bent, admiring more
The riches of heaven’s pavement, trodden gold,
Than aught divine or holy else enjoyed
In vision beatific. By him first
Men also, and by his suggestion taught,
Ransacked the centre, and with impious hands
Rifled the bowels of their mother Earth
For treasures better hid. Soon had his crew
Opened into the hill a spacious wound,
And digged out ribs of gold…
– Paradise Lost, Book i, 678-690
licensed to kill time
@Dennis SGMM:
Yes, it shows how remarkably impermanent humans and their works can be…really, we’ve only been around for a gnat’s whisker in the overall scheme of things.
arguingwithsignposts
@BGK:
True story: I once got the opportunity to watch a training day with linemen on safety precautions – live, when they had to climb poles and all that stuff, and a relative used to be a lineman and would go out of town to help other areas when electricity went out. They definitely do shit I would never do, either.
But, like most people who actually *do shit* they get paid accordingly. Shoulda learned to shuffle papers and convince people to invest in ponzi schemes.
Yutsano
@Dennis SGMM:
What’s really remarkable is the city’s decision to just let it grow. Partially because most inner city kids have never seen green wild things like that. And yeah the whole no money thing too.
Dennis SGMM
@arguingwithsignposts:
One of my friends works for Southern California Edison. He is highly paid enough to have bought an $800,000 home a couple of years ago, have a stay-at-home wife, and be raising three sons. I didn’t see him for several days during the Station fire. When I asked him where he’d been he answered “Just working.” His wife later explained to me that he’d been gone the whole time that the fire was spreading. His job? Just going ahead of the fire crews in a bucket truck and securing downed power lines. Some of them were still live.
arguingwithsignposts
@Dennis SGMM: I’m sure there’s a “YMMV” factor involved. Most of the linemen I’ve known are decently-paid, i.e., they work hard hours doing hard work, and always a risk of death or injury because of the stuff they’re working with. The ones I’ve known (including my relative) wouldn’t probably qualify for an $800K house, or be able to afford a stay-at-home spouse. They are (were?) solidly middle-class, which was my point.
Villago Delenda Est
@FlipYrWhig:
Well, it is.
To banksters, Wall Street guys who want their bets covered, defense contractors, oil barons, broadcasters, telcos, pharmaceutical companies, health “insurance” companies…
PurpleGirl
@FlipYrWhig: What many people do not realize (or want to realize) is that all those bridges, dams, roads, whatever were built with borrowed money. If we waited until we had cash in hand for all that stuff, it would never be built. I can remember being told in social studies/history class (in junior high school) that the day to day expenses of government should be paid out of current revenue but infrastructure (future use) projects are things you borrow for (sell bonds) because they are more expensive to build in the future and it takes too long to get the cash in hand. People don’t want to realize that any more. They want a Second Avenue subway but they don’t want the construction to happen NOW! it’s inconveniencing me!. People are stupid.
FlipYrWhig
@Villago Delenda Est: Definitely. The Washington Monthly article about tax breaks and loopholes — the title was something like “20,000 Leagues Under the State” — was a great primer on who’s been pocketing that dough.
Mike G
@arguingwithsignposts:
Every one of which was opposed by the tax-cuts-and-low-services nimrods of their time. And today their political descendants continue to bitch and moan as they massively benefit from those projects. The small-minded hypocrites, solipsists and willfully blind have always been with us.
Dennis SGMM
@arguingwithsignposts:
I apologize if my post suggested anything else. My friend is highly paid because when something screws up, or blows up, or goes all to hell they call him in first. Any lineman, to my mind, is worth at least as much as they pay him and every one of them has my respect.
nancydarling
@cleek: I loved browsing that site. It got me longing for the days when we, as a society, believed that government could do good things while promoting the general welfare.
I learned to swim in pools which were CCC or WPA projects. I have slept in the little stone cabins at the bottom of Grand Canyon, which were WPA. My local post office, built during the depression, has wood carvings gracing the walls—part of the Artists and Writers Project. My father, laid off from his oil company job from 1932 to 1935, worked building bridges for the CCC.
Can you imagine the uproar from the right if President Obama tried to create jobs the way FDR did? Where did we go wrong and how do we get back to where we were in our thinking in those days?
FlipYrWhig
@nancydarling:
IMHO it all boils down to all those poll findings that people have much higher levels of support for “redistribution” and social welfare when they believe the beneficiaries are people like them. What Went Wrong is that the civil rights movement complicated that picture — and feminism, and queer activism, and immigration-rights activism complicated it even further. LBJ knew it would happen, and, to his credit, he pushed on with a civil rights agenda anyway. But “we” are taking generations to recover from that jolt from having to confront the idea that not everyone struggling in America is like “us.” It’s going to take a lot longer still.
nancydarling
@FlipYrWhig: I fear you are right. I have read that one reason FDR excluded farmers and agricultural workers from the original Soc. Security laws was to get southern senators on board who did not want to include black share croppers in the system. That wrong was corrected in the early ’50s. It also explains why the net wealth of the black middle class lagged behind their white counterparts—less money to save and invest even with a good job up north when you have elderly parents to take of.
WereBear
Heck, yeah! They risk injury and death so the rest of us get to see who laughed at our bon mot on Facebook…
They contribute far more than many Representatives this year…
FlipYrWhig
@nancydarling: I was talking to a Dutch guy yesterday who said he was alarmed at how easy it was starting to be to turn people there away from social democracy by raising the specter of immigration. The USA got a head start on that trend, alas.
nancydarling
Here’s what happens with private infrastructure without oversight and mandatory compliance. Pipeline explodes in southeast New Mexico and incinerates a dozen campers.
http://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/New-Mexico-Pipeline-Explosion-Ignites-Legislation-Reform-Talk/1012/
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96090&page=1
Maude
It isn’t just that the government can do things, it’s that we as people in this country can do things.
It’s obvious the financial sector has a lot of incompetence.
They build nothing and produce nothing.
Villago Delenda Est
@Maude:
The thing is, and it’s maddening, is that they didn’t used to be that way. They used to be the guys who, through bonds and other capital raising methods, facilitated those projects.
Now they’re just a bunch of guys looking to make their own piles at the expense of their clients.
Maude
@Villago Delenda Est:
Amen.
Corner Stone
@Villago Delenda Est: Milken.
I read this at least once a year it’s so good, IMO:
http://www.amazon.com/Predators-Ball-Inside-Burnham-Raiders/dp/0140120904
Linda
That Fallow quote about infrastructure being the “public” wealth is the crux of the funding issue. Modern conservatives do not mind taxation per se–they mind that it will go to public employees and institutions, rather than to private executives. So they support the outsourcing public duties, such as support services for the armed forces and private schools, which does not lighten the tax burden, but puts the money into private pockets. And they are in favor of selling everything they can to private entities, like the turnpikes in Ohio and Indiana. Everything that they can’t eat/feed to private fatcats should, in their view, be buried.
Exurban Mom
No, no, no, y’all, it’s all good…we don’t need no stinkin’ FAA: Ron Paul has it all figured out! The airlines can police themselves!
currants
@Corner Stone: Oh. I’m late to the game, as always. In another 2 yrs life will settle down enough so I can keep up with who’s in and who’s the current kickball.
gene108
The greatest thing about American infrastructure is the ubiquitous nature of public restrooms.
Traveling in other parts of the world, especially for women, where they don’t have public restrooms really drives this point home.
gene108
@FlipYrWhig:
The U.S., for whatever flaws it has had towards immigration, minorities, etc., is generally a lot more accepting of immigrants than other countries.
Colin Powell, for example, is a second generation immigrant and no one gives a damn that his parents are from Jamaica.
List can go on of first and second generation immigrants, who do well in this country.
Judas Escargot
@Villago Delenda Est:
This, this this. Your banker used to be someone who wanted to see you succeed… so you’d pay him back, and perhaps borrow even more as you needed to in the future. No more. We’re just wheat to them, now.
I’ve been trying to push the money is almost free now, why aren’t we borrowing to expand on the cheap, just like a business would? meme, with some good responses, actually.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Life in an ideal Galtian Paradise would really suck. Privatizing everything would mean you would live with your fantastic plastic within easy reach. Drive on a road? Pay the toll to the owner of that road and every other road you drive on. How about bridges? Every bridge would have a toll. House on fire? Better have paid for protection in advance or have a large stash of cash on hand (and hopefully not in your burning house) for pay-as-you-go fire fighting. Clean air? Better have an oxygen tank attached to your house because the air belongs to everyone and is there to be used as people wish.
That’s not even getting in to the epic disasters that would regularly happen due to the lack of regulations and accountability. No need for regulations when buyers can vote with their feet and find another business who treats them better, driving the crappy businessman out of business (and into another disaster of a business under another name, allowing them to again abuse the public).
You have to wonder at the lack of gray matter and maturity of anyone who thinks that living this way would be paradise. These people are selfish, wanting to give nothing to make something for their nation, yet complaining about how shitty our government is at providing services to them. These people are foolish, selfish and lack the maturity to face the reality that surrounds them.
IOW, they are children. Big, spoiled rotten kids who want things their way OR ELSE!!
Older
@Yutsano: Years ago, when I lived in Portland, there was a freeway project that had a lot of trouble. At one point, the approximately 30 miles of right-of-way had been cleared and many of the interchanges had been built, and progress had stopped. A local paper suggested that in 2000, it would be a huge tourist attraction: a long, but narrow, strip of wilderness, with strange sculptures every few miles. I used to drive across it at night in the course of my work, and I saw a lot of wild animals. No bears, although there were rumors.
I was looking forward to it remaining interesting, but they finally finished the freeway, and it’s as boring as any other freeway now.