Digging deeper.
Michael Moore posted a blurb on his blog which I can only assume is meant to explain his/Bill Maher’s comment that he voted for the black guy and got the white guy, but which fails miserably on that count:
I was asked about Obama and how I felt about the job he’s doing. Here’s the transcript:
ME: I think I’m like a lot of people who voted for him. First of all, I’m disappointed that the other party — he came in holding an olive branch, and they just whacked it out of his hand, and he keeps holding the olive branch, and they keep whacking it out of his hand. And I think that’s great that he came in that way. But after the 5th or 10th or 20th time of whacking it out of his hand, he should have just said, Look, I’m so sorry you don’t want government to function. But I was elected with 10 million more votes than the other guy, by an overwhelming margin, and therefore this is the way we’re going to do it, I’m so sorry.
CO-HOST JOY BEHAR: So why do you think he doesn’t behave that way? Is it that angry black man thing that he’s afraid of projecting?
ME: Wow, well, I’m not a shrink, so I don’t know.
BEHAR: That was an issue during the campaign … that if you get angry and you’re a black guy in this country, people turn on you for that.
CO-HOST BARBARA WALTERS: When you read his book and you read his mother’s book, she talks about how she trained him not to react and to stay calm.
To lighten things up I decided to repeat a Bill Maher joke (something Bill said recently about how he voted for the “black half” of Obama, and got the “white half.”) Note to self: Tell your own jokes. Don’t try to quote the material of trained professionals. I’ll let Bill continue on in his own words when he made his point on his show:
BILL MAHER: Isn’t Obama’s big problem that he does everything half-assed? Maybe it’s because he’s only half black … If he was fully black, I’m telling you, he would be a better president. There’s a white man inside him holding him back because everything is half-assed. The stimulus was half-assed, healthcare is half-assed …
I tried to explain on The View that Bill was a comedian — but then I remembered you can’t really explain comedy. Satire has been around for a long time. Jonathan Swift, in the 18th century, wrote a famous essay about how the Irish should solve their famine problem: Eat their babies. Of course, he didn’t actually mean that. Quite the contrary — he was attacking the policies of the British government that were allowing the Irish to starve to death. There were many that didn’t understand he was employing humor to make a political point. It’s the sort of thing you either get or you don’t. If you take Maher literally, it sounds crass. But he’s being crass to make the larger point: There are a lot of white people who hate Obama because he’s black, and he has endured their hatred to the point of even having to prove he was born. Here. The history of black America — and this is at the core of Maher’s joke — is this: Oppressor=white. Why Obama has chosen to continue Bush’s wars and take positions as bad or worse than his predecessor’s (delaying new EPA pollution standards that could save up to 12,000 lives per year is the most recent example) has baffled many, including Bill Maher and me. Why appease the white Republicans who hate you? Let’s not forget, McCain won the white vote (57% of all white men, 53% of white women) and the ONLY white demographic that Obama won was among 18-29 year olds. (Allow me to point out again that, because the Democrats have been the party of Civil Rights for the past half-century, this has cost them the white male vote in nearly every election. The Dems who’ve made it to the White House have done it while LOSING the white male vote in their elections, with the exception of John F. Kennedy in ’60 and Lyndon Johnson in ’64).
Jokes, and certainly satire, exist to point out society’s foibles and to give people a chance to laugh at the things they’re uncomfortable about and to laugh at those who are abusing their position of power. I don’t think that Bill Maher thinks that just because Obama is black (or “half-black”) that means Obama’s going to “kick ass” or be more sensitive to the plight of the oppressed. You need go no further than Clarence Thomas’s seat on the Supreme Court to see just how naïve a thought like that would be.
Moore’s attempted explanation is utterly nonsensical. His attempt to deem it “satire” is silly. The explanation that “you either get it or you don’t” is obnoxious.
Moore’s explanation does underscore that his comments were not malicious (and I never said they were, nor did I say Mr. Moore is A Racist, but rather that he said Racist Shit), but it does not address the underlying problem with the comment, and that is that “being fully black” has some meaning separate and apart from being “fully white” or “half-black.”
And, given that he was referencing Bill Maher’s repeated comments that Maher wanted a gangster president, one who is more Suge Knight than Wayne Brady, Mr. Moore’s response ultimately falls flat on its face.
Here’s what Moore should have said:
I was asked about Obama and how I felt about the job he’s doing. Here’s the transcript:
~snip~
I tried to explain on The View that Bill was a comedian — but then I remembered you can’t really explain comedy. Satire has been around for a long time. Jonathan Swift, in the 18th century, wrote a famous essay about how the Irish should solve their famine problem: Eat their babies. Of course, he didn’t actually mean that. Quite the contrary — he was attacking the policies of the British government that were allowing the Irish to starve to death. There were many that didn’t understand he was employing humor to make a political point. It’s the sort of thing you either get or you don’t. If you take Maher literally, it sounds crass. But he’s being crass to make the larger point: There are a lot of white people who hate Obama because he’s black, and he has endured their hatred to the point of even having to prove he was born. Here. The history of black America — and this is at the core of Maher’s joke — is this: Oppressor=white. Why Obama has chosen to continue Bush’s wars and take positions as bad or worse than his predecessor’s (delaying new EPA pollution standards that could save up to 12,000 lives per year is the most recent example) has baffled many, including Bill Maher and me. Why appease the white Republicans who hate you? Let’s not forget, McCain won the white vote (57% of all white men, 53% of white women) and the ONLY white demographic that Obama won was among 18-29 year olds. (Allow me to point out again that, because the Democrats have been the party of Civil Rights for the past half-century, this has cost them the white male vote in nearly every election. The Dems who’ve made it to the White House have done it while LOSING the white male vote in their elections, with the exception of John F. Kennedy in ’60 and Lyndon Johnson in ’64).
Jokes, and certainly satire, exist to point out society’s foibles and to give people a chance to laugh at the things they’re uncomfortable about and to laugh at those who are abusing their position of power. I don’t think that Bill Maher thinks that just because Obama is black (or “half-black”) that means Obama’s going to “kick ass” or be more sensitive to the plight of the oppressed. You need go no further than Clarence Thomas’s seat on the Supreme Court to see just how naïve a thought like that would be.What I said was offensive to President Obama, black people, and mixed-race people. I shouldn’t have said it and I apologize.
See how much easier that is?
There’s still time to apologize, Mr. Moore.
[cross-posted at Angry Black Lady Chronicles]
4tehlulz
CAN’T YOU TAKE A JOKE? SO SENSITIVE
/
Ann CoulterMichael Moore300baud
Where can I find a transcript of the full thing? I’ve only gotten bits and pieces, so I’m not quite getting what the offense was.
dan
The fourth post on this, now?
The post below this is important. And the one below that. And the one below that. And so on, including the gardening one.
singfoom
Yeah, that’s just bad. He should stop talking, apologize for any offense and just shut the fuck up.
Personally, as a white man, I take offense at Maher’s joke because it implies that white men are ineffectual, not strong and/or half-assed.
Let’s just agree that assigning any specific characteristic like strong, smart, weak , stupid or whatever to a race or pointing those characteristics out as being sourced from someone’s race, whether it is full or half, is just fucking stupid and racist and really should just be left alone, ok?
Culture of Truth
Maher is a white guy, isn’t he?
FlipYrWhig
You know, I like Michael Moore, and still will like Michael Moore after this, but I don’t care for the way he plays games with the transcript — dropping in what Maher said in place of what he, Moore, actually said. Especially given that Moore has been cuffed around for _misleading editing_ in his films, he should really avoid cutting up quotations in order to make himself look better. And at any rate he shouldn’t use Maher as a human shield.
ETA: And this “half-assed” variant of the joke makes much less sense _as a joke_, as “satire.” The joke only works if the “black half” is cool and the “white half” is lame, like in bad standup comedy about how white people and black people drive differently, or if the “black half” is bad-ass and the “white half” is wussy. That’s the only reason it makes any comedic sense.
kalyarn
– Christopher Titus
So should this white comic apologize too? What about whenever Louie uses the N word or “The N Word” ?
Comrade Mary
I think Moore deserves every pixel of scrutiny over this — thanks, ABL.
Maybe Moore has not yet discovered how incredibly liberating it is to simply and succinctly say “I was wrong.” even near-infallible me has had go say it a few times, and it feels so much better than desperately scrabbling for a foothold in the loose rocks carrying you over the cliff.
Tony P.
“I voted for the preppie and the cowboy showed up.”
Had some comedian said that about George W. Bush, should that comedian apologize for offending cowboys or for offending preppies?
–TP
Capri
@Culture of Truth:
At least he’ll always have Bill Clinton.
Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill
Thank you again, ABL.
I might have strong opinions on, say, string theory or evolutionary psychology, but it’s not something I live day in and day out, and I try to respect the people who do. It’d be nice if people could return that favor to those of us who deal with these issues far more often than they do.
In other words: I utterly look forward to another 500+ comment thread of racist crap that John Cole spends sweat equity bailing out the worst of so that ABL and folks like myself don’t have to read anything but the blindly angry and the people who insist that we’re Obots.
taylormattd
Thank you!
Oh, and fuck all of you people who will pop in momentarily bitch about ABL’s tone or her “focus”; or who will pop in to valiantly battle that straw foe: “Moore isn’t racist!!!!!”; or who will pop in to repeat Rush Limbaugh’s schtick: “But why is it ok for black people to use the N word and/or make fun of white people?????????”
taylormattd
@Tony P.: Shorter Tony P. “But black people get to use the N word!! Also, this one time black made jokes about white people, ok???”
cxs
What an incoherent, evasive, fact-challenged non-apology Moore offers. It doesn’t even work as apologia because it reads as an ex post facto justification of his lazy original statement that only makes the original offense clearer.
FlipYrWhig
@Tony P.: “Also, how come you can make a movie called ‘White Men Can’t Jump,’ but if you called a movie ‘Black Men Can’t’ anything, there’d be hell to pay? Amirite?” Right?
Fuckin’ prejudice, how does it work?
the fenian
Again, if Moore had said something similar in praise of the president’s accomplishments in office, this ongoing tantrum would never have taken place.
You gave it away in your first sentence of your first post
Lysana
@taylormattd: Beat me to it. Some of you assholes are WAY too predictable.
taylormattd
@dan: What dan really means: “I could care less about the fact that the other threads were trolled by people claiming Moore’s racist comments were perfectly fine, the REAL travesty here is that ABL has raised this pesky issue of racist comments too many times, ok? I’m so uncomfortable!!”
MattR
@Lysana: I was thinking the exact same thing about taylormattd himself.
Larryb
ABL is fightin’ mad at … Michael Moore? Really? I mean, REALLY?
taylormattd
@MattR: Gee, what a shock. The pathetic, non-stop defender of Moore’s racist shit doesn’t like people pointing it out.
Lihtox
Wow, that Maher quote about being half-assed is even worse than the original: now biracial people do things half-assed because they’re not “one or the other”? Moore would’ve been better off saying nothing at all, I figure.
Zifnab
Moore took a not-exactly-hilarious joke and fumbled it into a serious conversation. He’s obviously not some wacko bigot or looking to go the shock-jock approach, but his habit of dissembling and trying to let people look inside his head so he can prove his statement wasn’t as dumb as it looked on the surface is just making the situation worse.
This is what makes guys like Moore weak politically. They don’t know how to stay on message. Moore (and Maher) want more aggressive liberals. Rather than giving forty page diatribes about what he was thinking when he said something stupid, it would be nice if he just cut the crap and came clean, like ABL suggested.
But then, he needs to pivot and get back on message. Come out straight and say “We want Democrats who are willing to fight for our team.” Then go back and tell us how he’s still fighting the good fight.
That’s what people go to Michael Moore for anyway. No one wants to hear him dissemble.
kindness
Burning coal!!!!
I’ve learned not to touch these.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
@taylormattd:
Oh, it’s like that, is it? Well, I just popped in to say “Fuck You” only and directly to your vile, racist, fascist, antisemitic, ungrammatical face. Because just by saying all those words, they become magically true in Krazy Balloonbagger World, and because you encouraged me to say “Fuck You” by doing it yourself in that cool way you have about yourself. That is all, have a nice day.
.
.
taylormattd
@Lihtox: Oh, but Lihtox, MattR, the fenian, and god knows how many others can’t possibly imagine what is wrong with such comments. They totally aren’t problematic in any way!! In fact, the real problem here is that ABL is taking issue with them. She just doesn’t understand that there is no possible way such progressives can ever make racist comments.
FlipYrWhig
@the fenian: What would he have said, “The reason why Obama passed health-care reform is because his bad-ass black self scared the shit out of those honkies in the Capitol”? I don’t think it’s possible to “say something similar in praise of the president’s accomplishments,” i.e., attributing his success to some presumed virtue arising from a longstanding ethnic stereotype.
Egypt Steve
@Tony P.: Did cowboys and preppies live under slavery for 400 years and Jim Crow for another century? Are they second-class citizens in the eyes of many to this day? Are the prisons full of preppies and cowboys doing hard time for offenses that others typically get to walk away from? If so, then yes, we should apologize to them for making crass, stupid and essentialist jokes about them.
soonergrunt
@dan: And so is this one. Because some people just don’t get it. Many of those people can be identified by their whining about how many posts there have been on this subject when people just don’t get it.
MattR
@taylormattd: Except of course for the posts where I said that Moore was clearly using racist stereotypes. I can’t think of a single post where I said it was OK what he did.
Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill
@FlipYrWhig:
Not to mention his (and Oberman’s) mind-bogglingly inept and offensive defense of Julian Assange, where it took nearly two weeks to get him — someone supposedly on “our” side — to apologize and say what needed to be said from Day Zero.
And this is the thing. Posts and reposts like ABL’s doing actually can make a difference. Moore’s not a stone wall of opposition and hearing.
But it keeps occurring with him. Again and again, he lets his mouth run, hurts a group he’s supposed to be allied with, and then runs roughshod or ignores over any attempt to get him to understand until he’s in front of a goddamn TV.
That’s not an ally. That’s not someone who acts as a modern Progressive. That’s someone who’s ignoring the voice of the very people he claims to be standing for.
So why should I defend him outside of his fundamental right to speak, given his regular failures in this realm?
taylormattd
@Uncle Clarence Thomas: Hey, thanks for taking some time off from polishing Jane’s ass to pop in and defend racist comments. When you head back over, be sure to tell her it’s time for another blackface post.
hhex65
@FlipYrWhig: well…fuckin’ prejudice seems to work great but white supremacy works even better.
cynickal
I swear, I have to have this hotkeyed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc
priscianus jr
@FlipYrWhig:
jl
Hey white folks (I am a white folk, BTW) Or Jewish folks (BTW, I am a a goy and a prot).
Suppose you were in a bar.
(which is pretty good supposing for this blog)
Suppose you were a local politician dealing with a local budget deficit.
(more far fetched, but let’s go with it.)
Black dude walks in and makes remarks that, because you were a white cracker bossman, or Jewish (and therefore ‘good with money’) he expected you to fix up the budget without raising his taxes, which are hitting him hard due to the recession.
And a bunch of white loving sensitive people who want special treatment are upset.
Would you rather the black dude emit a sorry ass passive aggressive rant, that repeats the same bigoted BS, or just say he’s sorry and maybe admit that he made a mistake. That it is a mistake to judge an individual, or have expectations about an individual, based on arbitrary superficial characteristics combined with some messed up social conventions over which that individual has no control?
I’d rather the black dude just say he slipped up and that he was sorry. Then we could have a beer and talk things over.
MattR
@Lihtox: While I initially thought this Maher joke was better since I thought the original was attempting to portray Obama as needing to let his black side out and be more thug like while this one was more focused on portraying the white man as unable to accomplish anything, now that you point out that perspective you are absolutely right.
eastriver
@Larryb:
Seriously? Right?
Methinks someone is itching for a feud to raise her progressive profile.
Michael Moore sometimes says stupid things. ABL sometimes says stupid things. Neither apologizes.
DaBomb
@Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill: You really should comment more. You always have such profound things to say.
I am glad ABL keeping bringing this up. As an African-American female, these subtle dogwhistles and covert bigoted comments need to be called out for what they are.
MoZeu
Can’t really waste the time to read Moore’s entire response, which you astutely point out is on its face about 12 times longer than it should be.
I read the first couple sentences though. Maher does purport to be a comedian of a sort. But he is not a satirist. Not in any way, shape or form. So Moore start off his explanation with a big, stupid FAIL and I’m sure it gets worse from there.
Mark D
The “it was just a joke!” excuse is weaker than … well, apparently, someone who is half or fully-white, per Bill Maher and MM.
A simple apology is simple, clean, and easy to do. As a bonus, it doesn’t make one look like a hem-hawing assface.
And with that, I’m out — have no interest in reading the racist shit that will surely show up in this thread.
Kola Noscopy
ABL is forever telling people they “just don’t get it.” Interesting that she chooses in Moore’s case to pretend not to “get it.”
Would that ABL were one-tenth the satirists that Maher and Moore are.
When does that timer/clock run out? This is ABL trolling for web publicity. Should Moore cave and pretend to apologize for that which did not happen, she will then have scored a web apology-kill, excellent for page views. Who knows, maybe an appearance on “THE View.”
Grift gonna grift…
jl
Also too. This racial and ethnic (and class and gender) stereotyping is subtle stuff, involving complicated histories, historical and current social and economic power relationships of groups in society.
I think it is a mistake to try to use Logic 101 syllogisms to snoop for supposed logical inconsistencies when examining hurt feelings.
Suppose instead of Jewish, you were a local pol who advertised his prized Scots heritage.
And a dude of any description comes in and says that a thrifty Scot should be doing better on fixing the deficit.
Probably everyone would have thought it a (perhaps lame) joke. Why?
Were the Scots not a persecuted minority for hundreds of years? By sneering brutal supercilious Brits (used to be the best movie villains, after the Nazis, until recently).
If you got all huffy about the bigotry shown towards your Scots ancestry, people would think you were joking, or a little tipsy, or starting to break under pressure.
Why the difference? I think there is a real difference between the two cases.
FlipYrWhig
@priscianus jr: Moore isn’t “a racist,” agreed, but he’s trying to have fun with stereotypes. “Cool Black Guy” and/or “Streetwise Takes No Shit Black Guy” aren’t hateful, and are “better” than most ethnic stereotypes (Louis C.K. has a bit about positive stereotypes, as I recall), but they still emerge from the idea that there is A Way Black Guys Act, and, hey, whaddya know, actual black guys and gals don’t love it.
(And that’s without even mentioning the whole other layer where a biracial person is deemed to have a “black half” and a “white half,” which, hey, whaddya know, actual biracial gals and guys don’t love either!)
Larryb
@eastriver:
FTW.
Josh James
I’ve resisted commenting for awhile, because I agree with much of what John said earlier, as much as I can understand and reason how racism works, there’s much I cannot comprehend about it simply because, well … I’m a white guy from the midwest … there are certain things I get as a result of my farmboy upbringing and certain things I do not … it doesn’t mean I won’t, just that some things are really hard to get from the skin I live in, and vice-versa …
now, that being said, this is a subject of no small interest to me, owing in no small part to the fact I have two mixed raced sons … and because, it’s an issue as Americans we should all be thinking hard about.
What I think of is terms of context …
part of the problem is that politics and entertainment these days has been intertwined to a degree where you honestly cannot say where one stops and the other starts …
it’s a problem when are two most trusted names in news both have shows on comedy central, both who “play” fake newsman roles, in a sense. That’s a problem, and Moore is trapped in a problem that is, in part, something of his own creation.
I don’t mean that as a criticism, just as a fact … is Moore an entertainer? Certainly it seems so … but sometimes he’s not … and that’s the problem with what he said … I don’t know which role it is, and that bothers me.
To wit, if Bill Maher says it (and I watched it when he did) I may not agree with it, but I laughed because the intent wasn’t to make a political statement per se, but to entertain … the political statement was just the gravy, not the meat and potatoes …
This is true of any comedian, be they white or black or mixed … Chris Rock says shit that makes me roll, I’m dying inside it’s so funny … but if my Senator says it, regardless of his skin color, I’d be pissed because it’s inappropriate and possibly racist …
Eddie Murphy, same thing … Denis Leary, Louis CK, Larry David, hell … all of ’em … their job is to push the boundaries, say offensive stuff in the pursuit of entertainment and making a society statement on via satire.
That’s the point … when Ricky Gervais made Hitler commments, they were funny … if someone made the comments in line at the store, I may be pissed.
Because context matters. Context and intent.
So Moore fucked up, but it’s not just his fuck up, it’s all of ours … because we expect our political commentators to entertain, and our entertainers to be political commentators, and get pissed when they get mixed.
it’s one reason I never watch the View, because it pisses me off … what’s the point of this show? I respect the women involved (well, maybe at least half of them) but are they journalists who will factcheck claims, or are they simply entertainers … if it’s the former, they’re often falling down on the job (see the Dick Cheney visit) and if it’s the latter, most of the time I find myself frustrated.
And that’s how I feel about Moore … frustrated … there’s so much more he could say and do without cribbing a line from a comedian that, when it comes from a non-comedian, is simply offensive.
Just my opinion, no more or less.
(Note, I’m not defending Maher or claiming what he said wasn’t racist … I’m saying that, as a matter of factual record, he’s a comedian, and his job is to say offensive shit and if enough of us laugh at it, he’s done his job) …
Respectfully, ABL, because I love ya, and part of your job is to shout about this shit in loud caps and I think you should …
beergoggles
Moore should know that he may not mean to be offensive but still make racist or insensitive comments. Dude should just apologize for it and move on. Save us all from having to keep pointing out racist shit that our side indulges in and focus on the real enemy.
geisha gurl
if we gonna continue to have this discussion about race, why not post about Bible Spice’s sexy time with G.Rice.
yeah, it’s trashy, but it might lighten the mood a little around here.
geisha gurl
if we gonna continue to have this discussion about race, why not post about Bible Spice’s sexy time with G.Rice.
yeah, it’s trashy, but it might lighten the mood a little around here.
taylormattd
@MattR: Jesus christ you are a liar. You wrote DOZENS of posts, most of which refused to address the actual content of ABL’s post about Moore, but when you actually did write about the content, your clear intent was to make pathetic excuses Moore and Maher’s racist comments:
GO TROLL ABOUT RACE SOMEWHERE ELSE
FlipYrWhig
@jl: Or, what if you were a politician named “Schlauermacher” or something, and you were having trouble getting a bill passed, and someone came up to you and said, “Hey, I thought a Kraut would have done a better job of wiping out his enemies!”
Amir Khalid
@dan:
Having posted on her objection to what Michael Moore said, ABL was obliged, as a matter of fairness, to post his defense. Your suggestion that she’s still milking the topic is off base.
By the way, I agree with her assessment that Moore’s defense is largely off-topic and doesn’t convince. Indeed, at one point he even concedes her main objection:
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@FlipYrWhig:
Is he trying to have fun? I still haven’t watched the clip and I’m not going to. But I agree his in not A Racist. From what I’ve read, what I’ve observed over the years, Moore is all wrapped up in his sentimental and self-aggrandizing self-righteousness, so sure that he is pure of heart, word, thought and deed, that he would be shocked to find out that anyone could disagree with him, much less be offended by what he said. I predict an apology– of the I’m sorry if you’re offended variety– is not far off, complete with tears. Those tears will be for himself.
eastriver
@Kola Noscopy:
ohmygodyes
Kola Noscopy
@Amir Khalid:
So what kind of a humorless dumbass, sitting in the audience or watching on television, would be taking Maher literally in the first place?
Humor; how does it work?
Annamal
God I hate the “it was satire” defense especially since it’s only deployed when someone wants to paper over the fact that they let something thoughtlessly offensive slip.
Swiftian satire requires that you take on a slightly exaggerated facsimile of your opponent’s position in order to show it up for the stupidity/cruelty that it is (e.g. eating Irish babies rather than just standing by and letting them die). Jon Stewart manages it nearly flawlessly every goddamn evening it’s not that bloody hard.
The racism is awful but so (to a much lesser extent obviously) is the abuse of a powerful comedic trope to excuse stupid racist comments.
jl
@Josh James:
Good points. Maher is a comedian, though one that I don’t like. My gut reaction to him is that he is a liberal counterpoint to Dennis(?) Miller, though a lot smarter and more informed. But he is a comedian.
Moore? What is he? He has done a lot of good, and I do not think he is racist. But what is his role? When is he joking and when is he being serious? That is a difficult line to tread with our current dysfunctional media and approach to public discussion.
FlipYrWhig
@Annamal: Swift is also, in that piece, absolutely deadpan, which makes the satire of colonial policy become a satire of dispassionate economic logic: he does all the math, explains what a boon it will be for the Irish economy, how tourists will flock to restaurants to try the new delicacy, etc. It’s not “satire” to say, “Hey, I thought black guys were tough and cool, but this one black guy is kind of a loser, must be because he’s not all black, heh heh.”
(Daniel Defoe, BTW, tried something similar, and wrote a hoax piece about how the best religious policy for England would be to exterminate all the small sects [Baptists, Quakers, Unitarians, etc.], but no one understood that it was a joke, and they totally believed someone would propose that. A very early instance of Poe’s Law…)
MattR
@taylormattd: Let’s see – the first one I am correcting someone who did not think there was any deeper context and pointing out that Maher meant black=thug. Michael Moore heard that joke and was referencing it. So I point out that Moore is saying black=thug and I do not excuse him for saying it.
second one – Again, somebody else made a comment that depicted Moore’s comments in a racially neutral way and I correct them by pointing out Maher’s history. Granted in this one I am a bit more generous to Moore, but I still don’t excuse it or say it is OK.
third one – I was disagreeing with this specific statement about Moore and Maher -“the fact that they think a black man has to act like gangster to get anything done” And re-reading it I am not sure I was actually right. But at the same time I was not excusing what they said or trying to deny that he used a racial stereotype to make their point – in fact I confirm it. If anything the argument is just about how they got to using the stereotype.
So the first two of those three quotes clearly demonstrate me pointing out the racist undertones to the joke without defending it any way. Exactly how does that make me a “pathetic, non-stop defender of Moore’s racist shit”?
Lighten Up
This is the dumbest complaint ever. He means he wanted the bad-ass black dude who would kick ass, not the white pussy that we have in the white house. Every one knows these stereotypes, and both black and white comics have fun with them. They’re not actually true, but they’re well known enough to make a joke about. I mean seriously – sometimes it’s just as wrong to take offense as it is to give it. IMO this is one of those times.
There are legitimate racism battles still to be fought. This so isn’t one of them.
Swishalicious
the comment Moore made was racist, stupid, and not in any way funny. same goes for Maher’s original “joke.”
but they were yesterday.
and the day before.
how many days in a row are we going to post about this one thing? how many times will the same people say the same thing over and over again in the comments? it’s far past the point where anything productive can come from poking this beehive one more time.
Annamal
@FlipYrWhig: What’s depressing is how little attitudes to suffering have actually changed…
Wannabe Speechwriter
If you have to explain satire in several paragraphs, it’s not funny…
Tom Hilton
@Tony P.: Well, of course, given the hundreds of years of systematic oppression of cowboys and preppies in our nation’s history. Obviously.
Mnemosyne
@priscianus jr:
Talk to Michael Richards if you think a comedian can say anything and get away with it. Or Tracy Morgan (though that was homophobic rather than racist).
Nobody noticed what Maher said because, frankly, Maher says stupid shit all of the time. And you could probably argue that Maher’s original joke was at least trying to play off of Maher’s own racism since he was talking about his own expectations of what a “black president” would be like, and Moore left that part of the joke out.
Sgt. Troy Barlow
Stop speaking right now, Michael.
poco
@Kola Noscopy: Gawd! You really are full of shit.
Loviatar
I used to come to this blog to discuss and argue about politics and now instead I get sucked into ABL land. If I wanted that I would go to her blog (something I’m proud to say I’ve never done).
Good Job John, ABL is killing your blog. Do you notice a lot of the old timers are checking out, this time next year this blog will be a slightly whiter version of ABL’s blog.
jl
@Tom Hilton: You know, or should know, that the actual cowboys were offended by the term ‘cowboy’.
And the ones who survived their oppressive and dangerous work conditions often ended up as elderly real estate salesman in Southern California, a horrible fate.
You are insensitive.
Seriously, some day, if we are lucky, many of these subtle racial and ethnic sensitivities will fade away. But the reality on the ground has to change first, for people who are labeled as Native Americans, African-Americans, Hispanic, and many other groups in various regions, and have to suffer the consequences deemed fit for them by the dominant power groups (which for local situations, may include other racial and ethnic minorities).
I just don’t see why it is hard to understand that reality.
Anyone been overseas? ‘How can YOU Americans elect such idiots?’ From, say, a well dressed Swiss dude in Zurich, who does not have to worry about health insurance, or some bunch of thieves taking his retirement money.
‘You know, when I saw you, you looked American right off, but its funny, I wasn’t sure. Then I realized, you weren’t fat. How come so many Americans are so fat?’ In Estonia.
Actually I was a overweight at the time, but not ‘American style fat’.
I got a little ticked off, both times, but took a breath.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Until Moore clearly and honestly apologizes for his boneheaded statement, I could do with a lot less Moore.
@Loviatar:
Over a thousand responses between two threads and leaving out all of the other threads that were likewise overflowing with comments…
and ABL is killing the blog? I didn’t know that blog killing was so popular!
Nathanael
Angry Black Lady, you’re coming across as a moron.
Frankly, what Michael Moore wrote makes more sense than what you wrote.
What you should have said was “Michael Moore should have shut up about race. Barack Obama is repeatedly appeasing the Republicans even though they want to kill him, but talking about race is not helpful.”
Now, was that so hard? Yes, yes it was, because you’re part of Obama’s cult.
I’m going to be blunt here: *complaining about racism is a diversionary tactic* right now, used to avoid any criticism of Obama’s Republican-enabling policies. Sure, Maher and Moore shouldn’t make vaguely racist comments. But if you care about this while the President is assisting Republicans in destroying the country and the world, you have got a really fucking narrow focus.
jl
@Odie Hugh Manatee: a pack of ravenous hyenas needs culling from time to time.
I check out of the
American Footballboozy SteelerLove posts, always. or just come in to take a swipe.Joe Bleau
@Loviatar:
Huh. Weird. How does that work, exactly?
I mean, I usually consume BJ via RSS, but even then I often skim over or just ignore stuff that I find uninteresting, or when I’m too busy to spend time on things that I feel won’t have a very good S/N ratio. Never once have I felt the effects of this strange force or vortex of suck of which you write, forcing me against my will to not only read material that I don’t want to, but comment.
How lucky for me, I guess. It sounds awful.
General Stuck
Moore is like a lot of entitled liberals in the view that civil rights was mostly a project of white liberals, and that there is some underlying duty for services rendered in the cause and delivery of those civil rights. It started showing up in the liberal blogosphere, even before Obama was sworn in, where various liberal bloggers were parsing with fine tooth combs deigning the members of Obama’s transition team for sufficient liberal purity, and escalated from there.
There has only been a few respites from the personal nature of the criticism when something happens that can’t be slammed as fail by these self adorned keepers of the left wing holy grail. Some of those respites have lasted an entire day.
And it is not what we hear about the complaints being legitimate critique, but goes well past that to rank sanctimony and a whiff of the white supremacy we hammer the wingnuts with. And Moore’s non mea culpa is lousy with the stench of white leftist ownership of the civil rights struggle, and replete with an air of being some kind of personal minder of Obama’s plight from being the first black president.
And he does it lazily, citing the Obama worse than Bush mantra of the nutroots, without even a scintilla of intellectual effort toward understanding why, or if that charge is anywhere close to accurate.
Fat white guy from the left, not that much different than the old fat white guy from the right. A little of Moore’s own uppity white man’s medicine. Obama owes white America nothing, nada, zero, he does owe the entire country his best efforts at presidenting the entire country, and if you don’t agree with those, then say so without bringing racial politics into it, especially when you do it as epically dumb as Moore does.
Loviatar
70 – @Odie Hugh Manatee:
If you consider a blog successful by the majority of the comments being of the racist, Firebagger, Obot, Ballonbagger type then yes Balloon Juice is a success.
I judge success differently; I look for different subjects, difference of opinions and well thought out arguments. What we’re getting now is repeated front pages on the same subjects with differences of opinions being shouted down with insults. Thats a recipe for irrelevance.
CT Voter
Thanks ABL. You get points for continuing to make people uncomfortable.
DPirate
Oh my, did someone say nigger again?
Odie Hugh Manatee
@jl:
I was an avid football fan but the Seattle SeaChickens ruined it for me long long ago. I was a fan from day one, watched Zorn/Largent become stars and then watched the SeaChickens choke, repeatedly, over the following years. After twelve years I gave up.
A person can only take so much abuse…lol
JC
My only observations for this:
Cornell West said of Obama:
““I think my dear brother Barack Obama has a certain fear of free black men.”
Is that REALLY so different than what Moore said? Really?
Isn’t it the same progressive criticism?
I’m sure that ABL would not call West ‘racist’ for saying it, would she?
1. This was much more of a ‘looking at the context’ of Michael Moore – rather than a drive by hitjob of a post. Which I appreciate.
2. It’s a bit ironic that ABL is asking SOMEONE ELSE to apologize, when I don’t think – though I could be wrong – I’ve ever seen ABL apologize for anything, and certainly never admit – heavens to Betsy – she might need to self-reflection, or that SHE may be wrong sometimes.
So it’s a bit of a head scratcher that she expects from other people, what she has, in her history here, never done – admit she has been wrong, in any way shape or form.
LEAD BY EXAMPLE, ABL. Lead by EXAMPLE!!
If I were a cynic – which I am, to a degree – I would say, that this is part of the perverse glee that provocateurs get – the small power rush of getting others to DO WHAT YOU THINK THEY SHOULD DO – in internet form, usually using OUTRAGE – without every admitting anything yourself.
3. There really is a philosophical/analytic issue here, in the sense that ‘what is racist”, ‘what is prejudice’?
Racism usually involves a power dynamic, and WHAT YOU SUPPORT, as a matter of institutional practice. In this sense, Moore is NOT racist. And the progressive point , progressives expected more fight from Obama for the have-nots, and Obama being black is one of the reasons to have expected that. (Blacks historically being some of the have nots) – I wouldn’t think this is a racist point.
That’s not what Moore SAID, I grant – but it is the – yes, generous – way to interpret what he meant. It’s been the standard progressive criticism for a couple of years.
But that’s a whole other can of worms – what is racist, what isn’t. And who gets to say. And when is the gray acceptable/not acceptable?
Nothing that will be resolved here.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Loviatar:
Much of the comments in the two threads I referenced were in support and/or agreement of what ABL (and John) are talking about.
I see that you have a problem with that. I’m sure that there are many other blogs out there that might cater to your tastes. I’m one of those old timers that you referenced except for the fact that I’m still here. I have seen many old timers come back periodically to comment in a thread (either on topic or not) that they are sick of the negative bullshit that anti-Obama people have dragged in here.
Don’t like it here? Blame yourself.
Joseph Nobles
So what Moore meant was that the white man inside Barack Obama was a House Republican, and then he apologized to Bill Maher for fucking up his joke.
This is not the action of someone sorry for what he did and said. Evidently Moore’s happy enough with being thought a racist as long as he scores firebagger points on Obama. What a lousy disgrace.
Dennis SGMM
Here’s hoping that some other lefty will say something stupid before ABL wears out making her bones on Maher and Moore. Enough is enough. Moore made his response, and as you have responded to me directly; deal with it.
Nick
Normally I’m cool with the “if the post doesn’t work for you, ignore it and move on” approach, which frankly applies to 90% of ABL’s posts for me, and that’s fine. But honestly, one post on this pissant issue was more than enough, three is just wasting front-page space.
(And yes, racism is important, but there’s a lot of it, and not all racism deserves it’s own private stage. And one off comments from minor documentary filmmakers with no power in society fall on the “life’s too short” side of the line)
Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill
@JC:
No.
Which is why I’ve been, in fact, even more critical of Cornell West’s need for Obama to be his fuckin’ monkey that I am of Moore’s ignorance.
Moore clearly doesn’t know any better. West, for all of his education and sensitivity on this topic in other areas, acts a hell of a lot like Tavis Smiley did when it comes to needing Obama to validate their position as Very Important African-American Men. It’s childish, and it underlines the odd Generational shift in American-American culture around the so-called Joshua generation (which Obama rep., even though Smiley is about Obama’s age, as I recall offhand).
But knowing that takes knowing more than the postage-stamped-sized knowledge of the community in question, and it’s issues and trials, than many people here display.
TBogg
If one were to choose to do so, one might see a parallel between obsessing over the fact that Obama is not progressive enough with obsessing over the fact that Moore’s brand of liberalism isn’t pure enough.
I wouldn’t make that point, but someone might…
kMc
Hope I get laid tonight…
DaBomb
@JC: Cornell West and his sidekick Tavis SMiley got completely and utterly trashed out on black radio(AL Sharpton, Steve Harvey, Tom Joyner, ..etc) for his comments. He has been trashed out on black blogs(The Grio, Melissa Harris Lacewell, etc.
West knows better, Moore doesn’t.
Edited: I see Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill beat me to it.
@General Stuck: THIS.
Wannabe Speechwriter
Wow, I tended to avoid ABL’s posts because I found them long-winded and shrill but I never really bothered to look at the comment’s section. Man, you critics are really giving me respect for her. Michael Moore said something stupid. We all say stupid things. Even if ABL was an over-the-top harpy pointing out the stupid thing Moore said (which I don’t agree with but just saying even if you’re right on this point), that still doesn’t me he didn’t say a stupid thing. Moore just needs to be a big boy and apologize.
I joke with my black, Hispanic and Asian friends about race all the time. I joke with my women friends about gender all the time. I joke with my gay friends about homosexuality all the time. The key thing is they are people I know, people who know me, people I know how far I can go, and people who will correct me if I go too far. However, if I said to random strangers jokes about these topics, I’d look like a total doucebag.
Now, before you say comedians like Louis CK makes very funny jokes about taboo subjects that appeal to the people who he’s making fun of, remember this-you’re not Louis CK and neither is Michael Moore.
Thymezone
It’s clear that Moore is flummoxed, and I sort of feel sorry for him. That long winded defense he put up is worthy of Court TV. It’s way too long and that’s why I know that he doesn’t get it.
The fact is, he unnecessarily kicked the racism can down the road .. intentionally, probably not. So, why not just say hey, I’m sorry, I should have chosen my words with more care and I apologize. But his ego gets in the way, which is why he said the thing in the first place.
If we are decrying the huge egos and facile racial graffiti that goes on in the media, we are on the right track. If we are trying to reform Michael Moore, we are wasting our time. He is what he is, an arrogant jerk. A talented arrogant jerk, yes, but …. If we are trying to educate the commenterati at Balloon-Juice … then bwahhaaaahahahahahaha. You’d have an easier time trying to convince the coyote to stop chasing the roadrunner and become a vegetarian.
Sad Iron
Sorry ABL, I just think you miss the point. Jane Smiley said this best in an article on Huck Finn–she said the problem with white people is “that they think racism is a feeling” rather than an institutional structure whose machinery is designed for discrimination regardless of who is at the helm; weirdly, you’re talking about this on the level of feelings, who’s offended, etc. Who cares? Okay, as you say, “Moore said racist shit.” Yawn. People got offended. Yawn. I guess, if it means that saying things utterly inconsequential when compared to real acts of racism is offensive. The impression this generates is that black people are sitting in their homes just wishing white people would say the right things, or like them. Nobody cares. It’s about fairness and equality, period, not about who likes who and things that people like Michael Moore say. Michael Moore, generally, is an empathetic guy who wants fairness for all. Hopefully everyone’s feelings will heal soon, becauseit appears that’s what really matters.
JC
@Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill:
See, I agree. In fact, West also says:
“As a young brother who grows up in a white context, brilliant African father, he’s always had to fear being a white man with black skin. All he has known culturally is white”.
That is even LESS DIFFERENT than what Moore said. Almost exactly the same, the accusation that Obama is ‘acting white’.
But I don’t think that ABL can call Cornell West statements, RACIST, can she? And not be laughed out of town?
So there seems to be a disconnect here – a lot of the emo-progressive blogs, just like the right wing noise machine, share an internal way of talking about things. In this sense, both Moore and West are steeped in it.
But I think you have to be more circumspect in calling Moore’s statement ‘racist’, if West is saying basically the same thing (as are a lot of the emoprogs, black and white, and yellow).
But ABL brought out her gun, and it seems to me, it shuts down the conversation.
Keith G
@General Stuck:
Oooo…nice job reading minds.
Lordy.
@Nathanael: I am not sure that I agree with all that you typed, but generally you may be onto something.
Edit
@Sad Iron: There is so much wisdom and intellectual strength in that you typed, It might not belong here.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@TBogg:
Can’t Moore’s liberalism not be questioned while his statement is? Why is it that whenever some ‘popular’ person fucks up there are many of their supporters who use the ‘all or nothing’ argument in their dissent? No shades of gray, which is ironic because many of those same people accuse their detractors of being ‘black or white’ people when it comes to certain issues.
I know you wouldn’t “make that point” but you did, exactly as you intended.
:)
cincyanon
It seems if he’d wanted to get out of it in a way a lot of liberals who are upset with Obama (I’m not really one) about certain policies, he could have said, “I voted for Obama but I got more Bush – the guy I didn’t vote for.” White guy / black guy problem is now very specific and not related to race anymore than commenting on their different hair color would be.
Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill
@JC:
Sure you can:
Cornell West’s statements are racist.
Signed, A Black Guy.
khead
I will take OVER 300 comments. The night is young and I need to feed my gambling jones before the weekend.
Loviatar
@79 – Odie Hugh Manatee:
What part of “differences of opinions being shouted down with insults” do you not understand. I guess insuting a person with a dissenting opinion can be considered a form of support for you side, personally I see it as childish.
.
I won’t get into a dick measuring on whose been here the longest (2005), but in reference to the “negative bullshit that anti-Obama people have dragged in here.” I have a question, when did this become an Obama kumba ya blog. Criticizing Obama is not negative bullshit, its criticism, and contrary to the Obot belief system Obama in not infallible, he has made mistakes, mistakes that have harmed the country. If thats negative then so be it, but I would say the same about any President, I said it about Bill Clinton, I sure the hell said it about Bush and I would have said it about Hillary if she had gotten elected, so what makes Obama any different, what makes him untouchable?
This no complaints about Obama system you Obots have reminds me a lot of the way the Republicans treat Reagan, its not healthy.
JC
@DaBomb:
Well, I don’t have it at my fingertips, but there have been some radical blogs by black authors, that have sides with West. He’s not out there alone.
Again, these are steeped in the belief system, read the same blogs, and share a narrow (and I believe wrong) radical critique of the U.S., and what you have to do to change it.
The point again, is, why is what Moore said racist, while what West says, isn’t?
JC
@Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill:
I’m okay with that – but what is the theory then behind it? What is the standard you apply?
General Stuck
@Keith G:
Thank you. The minds were simple, so was the effort to read them.
Gozer
I think what gets to most of us persons of color about this incident is the sense of essentialism with respect to race. We’ve all had to deal with it at some point in our lives and it never gets better when we encounter it.
It comes from both sides (i.e. Cornel West’s statement about Obama being somehow afraid of “free black men” and this statement by Maher/Moore) and it really is hard to describe how irritating it can be. It doesn’t imply that the person in question is racist, but IMO it brings up a feeling that in addition to all of the other bullshit one has to deal with there’s a sense that you can never really do your own thing. You’re constantly fighting against some nebulous expectation of what you’re supposed to/not supposed to be. And inevitably when you don’t conform to expectations, the specter of essentialism is used as a cudgel in an attempt to force you into some preconceived notion of what “your race” is like. It’s maddening. Especially when you’ve dealt with that shit for DECADES.
And I’m light-skinned. I can’t even begin to imagine what my darker brethren have endured, even in innocent encounters.
pete
@JC: I refer you to Bob Dylan’s “Ballad of a Thin Man”
Dennis SGMM
@General Stuck:
That’s a great load of cotton candy that you’ve spun out. Moore and Maher repeated a stupid bon mot. Both have done more for the Democrats than you will do in your entire life. To spin out Moore’s remarks into some sort of indictment of liberal privilege is damned close to Medieval theologians arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The praise that one of our front pagers bestowed on you this morning has caused all of you blood to puddle up in your lap. Sometimes good, smart people say stupid things – particularly if those things sound clever. That’s all there is to see here.
Keith G
@General Stuck: Don’t you forget about me.
JC
@Sad Iron:
This is well said, thanks.
General Stuck
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
It really isn’t about political ideology, it is about views of race relations in this country. Politics only provides a structured institution to draw out distinctions, especially with the first black president. I don’t question Moore’s liberalism, because I agree with him on most everything, that is ideal. I think we differ in tactics and strategy, and what the real meaning of “progressive” is contained with political realities of actual governing.
I don’t question Obama’s liberalism, on a personal level. But measured by laws passed in his presidency, there is a different standard, that folks like Moore seem to ignore.
MikeMc
I don’t understand Moore’s thinking at all. He made it even more racist. The white half of Obama is holding back the black half. Fuckin’ hell, man!
Bondo
@Mnemosyne: “Nobody noticed what Maher said because, frankly, Maher says stupid shit all of the time. ”
Would someone here, preferably ABL or one of the people that are trashing Maher, actually provide the video of Maher saying what he said? Instead you’re all harping on this point of Moore Said Maher said, and spin off from there.
Wheres the clip of what Maher said.
Sad Iron
@JC: You too. I’ve been reading your West comments–I need to get caught up on his recent chatter, but I’m completely agreeing with the spirit of your responses.
MikeMc
@Dennis SGMM: Wait. What has Moore or Maher done for Democrats, specifically?
General Stuck
@Dennis SGMM:
Right back atcha, with this pathetic comment. I been writing the same thing using different wording for the past two years on this blog. What someone says about my writing does not matter one whit, negative or positive. I keep writing what I think, and will continue doing so, regardless of yeas and nays.
I wouldn’t have written this comment, if Moore’s response had been anything other than the steamy pile of arrogant horseshit it was. Could just be my “white guilt”, though. Say hey?
Keith G
@Gozer: I do wish that the thought that you just typed would be the prevailing notion to come out of this mud puddle. It informed, personalized and suggested a standard of enlighted behavior. It did not blame, insult or condescend.
But you will not garner as much praise as those who do. We can be such silly critters.
Thank you for giving me a bit of hope.
Dennis SGMM
@MikeMc:
What has they done? Is our children being educated?
Moore’s documentaries have exposed the depredations of the predator class, whom the Republicans ably represent, on the American people.
The last time I watched Maher, it was a few years ago I admit, he was far more critical of Republican notions of governance that he was of the Democrats.
Either of which, to my mind, beats the hell out of yelling “Calp louder!” on a blog.
goblue72
@Larryb: Every day, there are likely 100 or more people in the media or politics saying (or actually, DOING) worse racial-ized shite than this. But ABL would rather throw nutty after nutty eating up the oxygen over THIS?!?!?
Seriously? Perspective – have any?
And I don’t buy for a minute if Moore apologized like ABL wants that she’d let go of the bone. Moore could have apologized and we’d be subjected to rants about how that’s great, but Maher hasn’t apologized.
JC
@Gozer:
That’s a great start, actually, on a ‘standard’.
Again though, prejudice is universal. In the end comes back to civil practices and institutions that help/empower, and diffuse prejudice so it doesn’t turn into racism.
EDIT: A lot of which BEGINS by dealing with the gap between rich and poor correctly, in my opinion.
Dennis SGMM
@General Stuck:
Protip: get yourself a thesaurus and look up synonyms for “pathetic.”
I admire your tenacity in what you been writing. Two years, eh? I’ve dusted more pixels off of my skivvies on this blog than you have ever surfed over. You’re a good man but you are, IMHO, trying too hard.
El Tiburon
For fuck’s sake. I’ve never seen a more ridiculous and asinine response in my entire life.
Michael Moore, who has spent the better part of his adult life fighting for the oppressed and against all that is wrong with this country has to put up with this? He just wrote a full-fucking page explaining himself. But no, not good enough for ABL. No, she demands, DEMANDS GODDAMNIT an apology.
And do tell us ABL,what happens when time runs out for poor Mr. Moore? What destruction do you have planned for him? More nauseating posts here? (I don’t blame you, I now blame Cole for this shit.)
Moore laid out a thoughtful and well-reasoned response, and as per usual – you shit on it without any regards to its merit.
Congratulations ABL, you blew the lid off of the Maher/Moore KKK duo.
MikeMc
@Dennis SGMM: Congratulations. You caught my spelling error. You deserve an award of some sort! Again, how have Moore’s movies, or Bill’s show, helped Democrats?
JC
@Thymezone:
As far as I know, Coyote is a ‘breathairian’. Poor dude never eats!
Bondo
I’ve been trashing abl over her maher comments which for some reason she offered in explanation to the moore comments, so I would like to politely disagree with something she linked to about maher. There she asks if anything should be “Black only” or “gay only” or there are things that only certain groups should say, or if anyone can say anything.
I would like to disagree somewhat, by saying that white people, straight people, whatever, can earn respect and the right to say things that you might think are black only, gay only, etc….
ABL doesnt want Maher to use the word gangsta, but it is *necessary* and valuable, because you need white people to throw republican racism back in their faces. You need allies. If black people are the only ones combating it its much easier to dismiss the criticism. You don’t want the only people calling out republicans for their racist bs to be black, because then then you’ll just be laughed at and it will be, “Oh, theres ABL and race hustler jesse jackson getting angry again.” Cole and ABL and all you guys seem to think that maher did somehting horrible, but what he did isnt like republicans spreading fears about Obama’s race. Maher is taking all those BS fears and shreading them and spitting them back at the racists. Hey, that America hating kenyan you hate? Well guess what, you ignorant ass, he just killed America’s number one enemy.
That message is great when someone like Chris Rock says it, and its great when Bill Maher says it. You want people fighting along side you.
Some people can’t earn the right to say things. If Michelle Bachmann or George Bush or glenn Beck started making gay jokes, calling people queers, etc… they don’t get a pass. They have no credibility, Bachmann and Bush and Beck are all notorious homophobes. they don’t have your back, they hate you.
But if Maher or Seth Macfarlane tell gay jokes at an event or in their shows, yes, they get a pass, they get a pass just about every day of the week, because they understand, and they are on your side, have a track record and therefore they are part of the group.
Maher isnt a racist from any stance that I can see, he knows the republicans are morons, he knows they irrationally hate obama, he knows they fabiricate “terrorist fist jabs” and “OMG Michelle Obama is a carrot nazi telling you how to raise your kids” out of nothing and broadcast it across the country, he sees the race baiting tea party signs, and yes, he knows what he’s talking about when he gloats over those racist scumbags and shoves their own words and images of obama down their throats and makes them eat it.
And no, he doesnt deserve to be criticized by the balloon juice community when he does it. Now, When Mel Gibson starts calling Obama a gangster, by all means tear that bigot a new one.
Michelle Bachmann says Obama is running a gangster government? Eh, whatever. Par for the course. But when Maher says it, OMFG, call Geneva and book a flight to Nuremburg. maher isnt doing anything untoward or racist and he sure as hell isnt legitimizing Bachmann or racism. He’s destroying them. And he’s destroying everyone of those bastards that think like the republicans. And he does it time and time again, on just about every show.
debbie
@ Bondo:
I’m on dial-up so I can’t find videos, but I saw him speak on this subject during his last appearance on Letterman.
Tom Hilton
I’m just going to repeat what I just said on Twitter (and it applies to a lot of commenters as well as Michael Moore): when your race- (or gender- or orientation- or other-) based comment offends a lot of people, try listening instead of rationalizing. I know it sounds crazy, but trust me–it’ll work.
El Tiburon
@Gozer:
I think you are guilty of what you were just complaining about in the first part of your post.
To echo another comment in another thread: exactly why is ABL ABL? Why not just “Angry” Why does she have to bring her race and gender into this? Is she asking us to buy into the stereotype of the ‘angry black lady’? Is it fair for me to ask, “ABL, are you so angry because you are black or because you are a woman or both?” Or do I have to leave race out of it? Fuck if I know.
Do her opinions and world-view come from being a black woman in this country? Of course. So, ABL can have her views as a black woman, but the views that white people have better conform to how she demands they be, or it’s into the Racist Barn for you!
General Stuck
@Dennis SGMM:
Actually, it’s been going on 5 years I been commenting on this blog, the last two has mostly been rebutting bullshit from people like you, concerning Obama’s presidency. I don’t care about your opinions Dennis, cause I think you are largely full of authoritarian white guy claptrap, and is why, when you expose yourself as such, you start up with the rank pulling and credentialing. It is kind of endearing though, as well as a little funny. But ultimately cringe worthy.
You could end your pain and just pie me, or keep up with these embarrassing episodes of who is superior and who isn’t. in that incoherent head of yours.
El Tiburon
@Bondo:
What Bondo said. Nice comment.
Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill
@Gozer: @JC, you need to pay attention to what this man just wrote.
[ETA: And I see you have. Fair enough.]
The answer to your question — at least for what both Moore and West have said — lies within.
My sense is that, like Gozer’s, both Moore and West (and Maher) have decided that Obama’s so-called whiteness is a weakness. And so, it could be argued that the racism is, in fact, anti-white, not anti-black. It’s not one I think takes you far, but it’s in the subtext.
And it’s racism not because they point out he’s biracial, but because they connect one aspect or another to negative stereotypes. Time and again, the core of racism is how a person/group is supposed to have these “bad traits”, and in this case, they make Obama’s so-called “whiteness” to be the “bad trait”.
It demeans both white and black people, in fact. It implies that black people are tough and mean — “gansta” — and white people are soft and nice. It reduces Obama to yet another caricature, for no good reason.
Obama has a bestselling memoir where he explains how he evolved his sense of race. West, I believe, is erudite enough to muddle his way through it. Even without, Obama’s whole life has been spit out, roasted, and reworked moreso than any man in recent memory. The man gave a extremely well-known speech on race which touches on these topics, and is well worth considering if you’re still confused on “what is racism”.
If you’re still confused, I suggest reading, because you’re not going to get a simple answer on the horrific and horrifically complex question on “what is racism/racist” on this blog, no matter how hard you try. I tried to sum up about, but: Saying just anyone grasps racism is like saying I understand string theory — I’m pretty good on the basics, but I didn’t study the maths for it, and thus am just a layperson, guessing at the worth of one theory or another. Experience, and living in the midst of it, count for a lot. So, too, does listening to the experiences of others, and reading on the people who’s dealt with racism, and wrote about their lives and opinions.
If I can recommend a piece: start with reading MLK’s LETTER FROM A BIRMINGHAM JAIL, esp. the part about the White Moderate, and contemplate that that was coming from the “Nice Negro” in the Civil Rights movement.
General Stuck
LOL White Butthurt. You could grow flowers in it.
Slowbama
Moore and Maher are both filthy racist f*cks who deserve to be hung by the balls by their white hoods. ABL, continue rockin’ the blogosphere with your unique brand of truth-telling. Jesus, us white people really suck.
MikeMc
@Bondo: Are saying that racist comments, are or aren’t racist depending on the person making them? Does my question make sense? I mean, is it only crass when the person uttering it isn’t on my/your side?
magurakurin
@Culture of Truth:
seriously, people don’t get this? It doesn’t matter what was “meant” by the comment. The comment implies that there is an inherent difference between Obama’s alleged “black half” and “white half.” (as if such a thing existed, that it itself is offensive, or should be) The overall implication is that there is this same inherent difference between persons of different races; this difference is racial and to believe that such a distinction exists is racist. This makes the comment racist. It doesn’t matter if the implications were that “black is better than white” or that a white guy somehow sucks, because the difference is based on race.
And that is a lie.
Because any difference between any two individuals are not based on the color of their skin anymore than they are based on the color of their eyes. If the comment were to be “I voted for the hazel eyed guy and got the blue eyed guy,” would it be “funny” or “clever?” No, because the racist element would be gone, because there is no long and bitter history of discrimination(which is ongoing) of people with hazel eyes by people with blue eyes.
There are cultural differences between blacks and whites in the United States, that one could point to as the object of this “joke.” But these cultural differences are again the product of racism because for hundreds of years African-Americans were segregated from American society in very harsh and cruel manners.
It’s a fucked up thing to say. It isn’t funny and it doesn’t make anyone’s point or position stronger.
Tony P.
@Egypt Steve: Thanks for NOT putting words in my mouth as taylormattd and FlipYrWhig gleefully did, way back at #13 and #15.
Now, you ask: “Did cowboys and preppies live under slavery for 400 years and Jim Crow for another century? Are they second-class citizens in the eyes of many to this day?” The emphasis on “and” and “they” is mine; I’m wondering whether you meant “or” in the first case, and who “they” refers to.
“Cowboy” and “preppie” are obviously stereotypes. They do not, to my knowledge, carry the emotional freight of “black” and “white”. They do not, in any way I can think of, align with “historical oppressors” and the “historically oppresed”. They both invoke positive AND negative connotations. They are as neutral, in a sense, as stereotypes can get. But they are, indeed stereotypes.
“I voted for the cowboy but the preppie showed up” and “I voted for the preppie but the cowboy showed up” are both complaints that exploit stereotypes. You can be offended by both statements because they both invoke stereotypes. But it seems to me that if you consider yourself to be either a “preppie” or a “cowboy” you might be offended by the one more than the other.
Most of us (I’m guessing) are neither “preppies” nor “cowboys”, nor even part one and part the other like Dubya. We stand at least a chance of looking at the cowboy/preppie line (either way around) dispassionately, and looking at the reaction to it from either “preppies” or “cowboys” dispassionately, and deciding how much sense either the line or the outrage about it makes.
I know perfectly well that “dispassionately” is an offensive way to evaluate racial stereotypes here in America, because 99.9% of the time “black” automatically invokes negative connotations in this still-racist country. So even the 0.1% of times when somebody attempts to attach a POSITIVE stereotype to “black”, he gets passionately condemned for it. Better he should shut up, so that “black” can evoke negative connotations 100.0% of the time, I guess.
(For the irony-deficient, the previous sentence is sarcasm.)
–TP
El Tiburon
@magurakurin:
Lighten up, Francis.
MikeMc
@magurakurin: Very true. As a white guy this annoys the shit out of me. It’s a white guy telling Obama that the white part of him is weak. Jesus, if Maher and Moore believe this, doesn’t it mean their vote was based on race?
Dan
@taylormattd: No, I think that thinking people can very well understand what I mean. But thanks for the attempt at analyzation.
Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill
@Bondo:
Why? Hell, there’s tons of African-Americans that don’t want African-Americans saying what African-Americans say about other African-Americans. Assuming we’re a monolith is a mistake too damn many make — or that somehow, if you do/say the Right Things, you can be a Honorary Negro or something. WTF?
You know what you can “earn”? Our comfort with you, as someone who is going to stand and work with us on issues of importance to our community (again, not a monolith, but who is?). Yeah, you might be able to get away with a chicken joke, maybe, but you seem to present that as The Goddamn Point, and it’s not. The point is that you’ve sweated through the work, you’ve stood for Civil Rights, and you’ve done what you can to leverage white privilege to make PoC’s lives better.
And THAT’S why “we” gave a pass to Joey Biden with his “clean and articulate”. Not just because Biden’s a known blowhard, but because on votes big and small, and rhetoric large and…well, with Biden, not-so-large, he’s shown by actions that he’s not anything like a racist. Moreover, when he was called on it, he apologized fully and completely, and without weasel words. Contrast with Moore — and consider Biden was trying to complement Obama.
No. Really, not like that.
Nothing in Maher’s statement helps beat back the GOP. Here’s some videos, so we can see:
http://cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2010/12/05/gps.mahr.obama.cnn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs1kMDzec4Y&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i64BbLK4zM4&feature=related (this one is at least fairly positive)
What in those statements is going to make the GOP shake in their boots? Is going to make them think “Oh, that’s what our racism looks like out there?” Maher is just playing off gansta stereotypes, and mostly mocking Obama in the process — and, at best, is comparing him to drug runners and gangbangers. Fair play, he’s a comedian, but still, it’s not cool at all, and not even really attacking the GOP over anything by making Obama out to be a negative stereotype.
If I really have to explain how that’s not the work of an ally, then you and I have very different explanations of the term.
Thymezone
@JC:
I know … it’s that ACME cookbook he uses ….
Elie
@Zifnab:
You make excellent points, but still I don’t get the direction of the energy — the negative energy against the person (Obama) that you want to do what you would like or represent things a certain way. My question is do you get that doing what they do — deriding, criticizing and making disparaging remarks about the implications of his racial makeup? Like his race is the critical engine of that performance? Whaaa? He and Maher think that they “hired a nigger” to do their bidding and they didn’t get what they paid for, or whatever?
I have watched my last Bill Maher show (actually stopped a while ago cause his shtick was boring). And Michael needs to concentrate on losing weight. All that fat is in his brain – between his ears.
Dan
@Slowbama: I agree. More posts about this please. Like about how he didn’t apologize for the apology. Then the country can heal.
Lihtox
@Slowbama: That’s not what she said; so if you’re mocking her, then knock it off, and if you’re serious, don’t claim her as an ally.
To quote: “Moore’s explanation does underscore that his comments were not malicious (and I never said they were, nor did I say Mr. Moore is A Racist, but rather that he said Racist Shit)”
How much clearer could that be?
Elie
@MikeMc:
Yes, it does.
Elie
@Bondo:
Michelle Bachmann says Obama is running a gangster government? Eh, whatever. Par for the course. But when Maher says it, OMFG, call Geneva and book a flight to Nuremburg.
If my enemy calls me a name and then my so called friend calls me the same name, wouldnt you conclude that my “friend” is not a friend?
You are butt fuck stupid.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Loviatar:
There was no “dick measuring”, you brought up long-timers leaving and I gave you a counter to that.
No, your obsession with people who support Obama is what’s not healthy.
@General Stuck:
I agree. I’m just sparring with someone who has a dull sword and few skills.
Dan
@Lighten Up: That sums it up perfectly.
DaBomb
@JC: Yeah, what blogs? The Black Agenda Report. Because really nobody takes them seriously.
And I am telling you, Cornell West is not being taken seriously within the black community.
Dan
@Lihtox: No, she is perfectly clear. Moore is a racist and his “apology” makes him a double-super racist. That’s why 4 posts isn’t enough. We need to start an entire blog.
JC
@Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill:
Appreciate the response. It’s been awhile since I’ve read that. Actually, reading anything from King simply makes me feel like a lazy narcissistic idiot. Wasting my time commenting on a blog like this, rather than participating more broadly in changing things. Me participating here, this is pure masturbation, compared to what King was doing, and braving.
But, given that – worth quoting King:
“In any nonviolent campaign there are four basic steps: collection of the facts to determine whether injustices exist; negotiation; self-purification; and direct action.”
Again, this speaks to the difference of ‘racist’ – in regards to ACTUAL INSTITUTIONS AND PRACTICES – rather than ‘racist statements’.
MLK’s letter doesn’t waste too much time on ‘statements’, such as ABL is criticizing here. He is far too engaged in direct action and analyzing REAL societal injustice to waste his time on such. So this letter isn’t very helpful on analyzing ‘racist statments’.
In that sense – MOORE is not a racist.
Now – the ‘white moderate?’ As far as I’m concerned King’s judgment nails to the wall, each and every blog ‘participant’ – yes me too – who isn’t actually going out and creating a change, participating for making things better in the world.
Blog intellectual masturbation is useful, in the sense of clarity, creating a more integrated point of view, raising awareness.
But just atrocious in creating real change.
And, I think that Moore, with his movies, his sit-ins, his millions devoted to REAL causes, has attempted to walk his talk.
(As opposed to most of us, lazily commenting here.)
Keith G
@Lihtox:
No mocking? On Balloon-Juice?
Oy vey!
virag
@General Stuck:
moore is anything but an entitled liberal. i know for sure he’s sold a few more books now, though.
Kola Noscopy
@Keith G:
Don’t you know , one must not mock ABL? It is simply not allowed.
Seriously, there was a major kerfuffle in comments here because several commenters were calling ABL the Angry Clown Lady. The horror! There was talk of banning over this “disrepecting.”
Are we allowed to call her “She Who Must Not Be Mocked (Lest Her Delicate Fees Fees Be Hurt)?
Apparently ABL has Cole’s testicles in a jar on her computer desk, along with photographs of him and Lily in a compromising position. Such a state of affairs would explain her continued posting here…
gwangung
@Dan: Still not good at that reading comprehension thing, huh?
Bondo
@MikeMc: Are saying that racist comments, are or aren’t racist depending on the person making them? Does my question make sense?
yes, you make sense, and I’m saying there is a bluring of the lines. Nobody is going to look at Jon Stewart or Bill Maher and object when they make (what are on the surface anti-gay) Larry Craig jokes. They love the gays.
for reference, heres the post ABL linked to: https://balloon-juice.com/2010/11/13/its-just-like-i-done-told-yall/
She’d certainly say that there are things black people get to say that white people dont. And its not just the n-word. She doesnt want white people to say gangsta either.
That’s frankly ridiculous. What I’m saying is that its about trust. When you know someone, and you’re friends with them, you relate differently to them, you talk to each other in a different way. It gets trickier when you extend it to celebrities, but maher has that personal trust, while Mel Gibson or racist John McCain does not, and even if maher didnt have that trust, he ABSOLUTELY has the right throw GOP bs back in their faces.
If you read the link, ABL talks about her family. I don’t know their family or their arguments, but I highly doubt her mother is completely incapable of understanding racism or “black things”.
And I’m saying yes, its a bullshit cop-out to claim ownership over a particular issue based on strict black/white gay/straight lines. And most annoying is ABL is using/falling back on racism to shut down criticism of Obama: All you dumb progressives can’t want obama to have a spine because black people can’t have a spine or he’ll automatically be an Angry Black Man!
Nobody who voted for obama wanted him to be a weakling or a doormat for all those lilly white republicans to step on.
lacp
NO, NO, NO, PEOPLE! PARTICULARIZE!
“I voted for Idi Amin and I got Don Knotts.”
See how much less racist that is?
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Kola Noscopy: “Apparently ABL has Cole’s testicles in a jar on her computer desk…”
Ahhh, ABL is angry and tough and John is the wimpy white guy whose balls she cut off? This sounds familiar…
What is it with people like you who fixate on testicles as manliness and the removal of said testicles by someone you despise or think of as a lesser person? Did you lose yours in some horrible accident? Leave them in a restroom? Get them handed to you too many times? Or do you fondle them while posting stupid shit like this.
If I were a betting man I would put money on the last one.
Lojasmo
I love MM’s movies. I wish he would hire somebody else to narrate them, and never again open his mouth in public.
bill Mahr can just rot in hell.
Dennis SGMM
@General Stuck:
I offer my thoughts here just as you do. Agree, or disagree as you will. I only invoked my time here because you were the first to do so in your reply to me.
For someone who descrys the puritanism of emoporogs and liberals as much as you do you draw some mighty fine lines as far as racism. You are, again, a johnny-come-lately to both the Democratic party and to any notion of liberalism. You’re a phony who has found a new hobby.
Tell ya’ what; you win. I’m going to knock on doors and make calls in ’12, just like I’ve done for years. You win the blog. I’m gone.
Bondo
@Elie: Butt Fuck stupid? You’re the second one to use homophobic comments against me in this conversation. I havent personally trashed you, and yet here you are using homophobic attacks against me, in this of all conversations. You’re digging deeper, elle! Take a tip from ABL, its not too late to apologize to me.
And it must be said, that unlike Moore’s comment, that wasnt meant to be malicious yours was.
To answer your unstated question, please explain to me how it is that when a gay ally like Kathy Griffon makes gay jokes, its AS BAD OR WORSE than When Michelle Bachmann or Rick Santorum say things about gays.
Go ahead elle, make my day.
ABL
@Bondo: ok, now you’re just being ridiculous.
point to me where i said that white people can’t say “gangsta.”
i have written repeatedly what i think about this situation. apparently when i say —
what i’m REALLY saying is: Michael Moore is the grand wizard of the KKK, even though — y’ know — i never said that.
wrong.
wrong.
wrong.
Who knew I had so many juicers living in my brain?
Keith G
@Bondo: That was hateful toward gays. That is amazing that someone could say that in these times.
FlipYrWhig
Maybe when Andrew Cuomo runs for president we’ll get an explanation of how when he’s insufficiently tough on Issue Of The Day it’s not at all trafficking in stereotypes to say, “Hey, what’s the deal, Cuomo, I voted for John Gotti and all I’m getting is Rudolph Valentino!”
lacp
@ABL: ABL, you may have inadvertantly found the source of that tumor.
ABL
@lacp: hilarious. :)
Blogger FKA Maimonides
Amusing to see people wondering why we’re still talking about this when Moore has neither apologized nor put down the shovel.
Let’s be clear folks: racism is bad, and it’s even worse when liberals try to excuse it because they like the person who deployed the racism’s politics. Be consistent or BE GONE.
DaBomb
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Gosh Kola Noscopy’s fixation on genitalia sounds eerily familiar to what some of the right would say. Even his/hers handle is pretty disturbing.
At least we know when he/she opens their mouth, we are getting nothing but shit.
Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill
@JC:
I’m stunned you even tried this crap.
I write an extended, heartfelt treatise about the nature of racism at your request. You go off into a discussion about how MLK’s 4 stages of direct action means that Moore didn’t make a racial statement worthy of being called out. That we should be focused on “real” racism, I suppose?
Yet: what do you think buttresses “actual practices,” but language — the glue from which we take many of our first cues on how the world works? Do you know the history of Civil Rights workers struggling to get out from being called “boy”? Or how important “They call me Mister Tibbs!” was to that generation, as a clarion call? Language is the backbone of this movement.
As myself and others have explained in patience, what Moore said, what Maher said, what West said: These are not points in isolation, but reflective of a stereotype, a painful point around how America sees a subset of her children. When you speak to that stereotype, you risk giving it power, you risk making racism worse. That 3 men — one of whom is supposed to stand against such works — speak so readily to it shows how much damage it has already done. ABL speaks to alert us to the damage, and in that, if you insist on the analogy, she completes Step one: “collection of the facts to determine whether injustices exist.”
But I do not insist upon it. That you insist upon racism as big and broad, and that we cannot point out the smaller issues that do truly hurt PoCs, in ways subtle yet very real, underlines the divide in this discussion. Even in a good-faith effort to reach out, you’ve decided to grasp upon a thin reed indeed to debate a point.
I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
General Stuck
Well shiat. I don’t want to win the blog. So I’ll give it to charity for a decent price.
Uriel
@Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill: Wow- that was nicely done. Hats off, kudos and such.
ribletsonthepan
@Tony P.: Get a Grip! You know damn well preppies and cowboys have absolutely nothing to do with racist remarks. But you’ll give it that ‘ole college try nonetheless. The topic at hand is assigning, then voicing stereotypes of black folk. Specifically voicing disappointment that Obama doesn’t exhibit the “gansta” stereotype. Try ABL’s response for accuracy:
Lysana
@Bondo: Actually, I do object when lefties make anti-gay jokes. And when they say “the gays.” You hypocritical little troll.
Bondo
@ABL: Hi. I gathered you dont want white people to say gangsta from the update i your post this week: https://balloon-juice.com/2011/09/14/michael-moore-quotes-bill-maher-on-president-obama-i-voted-for-the-black-guy-and-what-we-got-was-the-white-guy/#comments
specifically, “For those who have taken issue with my using the word “gangsta” …Bill Maher has done this repeatedly… lay off the racial shit.”
You also link back to The Internet is Fun, where you further talk about Maher uses gangsta. http://www.angryblacklady.com/2010/11/13/the-internet-is-fun/
There isnt any way to interpret those posts to mean you were fine when maher said gangsta.
I think You’ve been perfectly clear about moore, I know you dont think he’s the second coming of strom thurmond. I dont even really care about Moore, I’m just here because of your comments about Maher, and also John Cole repeatly telling progressives to chill out and stop criticizing Obama.
“She’d certainly say that” When I read that link, wasn’t completely sure whether you agreed with the notion of “this is a black thing” or not, or in all circumstances (and that is probably the key… because some “black things” can easily be understood by whites, while others may take more work) but I knew you were mad at Maher.
DaBomb
@Bondo: That was completely incoherent.
ABL has explained numerous times what she is mad about. And yet you still want to twist crap to fit your insane narrative.
What Maher and Moore have said is racist and stupid.
Do you get that?
ABL
@Bondo: i feel like it was pretty clear that i meant “gangsta” in the context of the posts, i.e., descriptors used for POTUS, not “gangsta” generally. my update to my original post was in direct response to people claiming i was being untruthful or fanciful in my assessment of moore’s meaning.
In reponse to a commenter on TNC’s post about who has respect for Maher, I said the following:
I have explained my position. It is not an unreasonable one. Too many folks here seem intent on divining some meaning from something other than my plain words.
John Cole has never, to my knowledge, nor have I ever claimed that progressives should stop criticizing Obama. Nor have I ever said (nor do I feel) that all criticism of Obama is racist. That is a gross and absurd misrepresentation of anything that I’ve ever written, one that many of the trolls here (I don’t mean you) traffic in. It’s patently dumb. It’s patently absurd. And it makes those who claim it look like idiots.
Keith G
@Blogger FKA Maimonides:
It is a million times worse than bad.
Folks who enable racism are very, very bad.
But here is where facts and language come into play. There is little doubt in my mind that what was said was ill-informed, stupid and offensive, but I see no evidence that is was racist by any formal definition, and definitions count. They must count.
Societies function on agreed upon notions of things, on mutual understandings. Racism is a very important word with a deep and complex history to its meaning . It’s adjective form is racist – and that word loses none of the formal punch held by the noun form.
Racist ideas are those notions used in service of racism. Maybe we will find that Moore is really a racist. As of now I see no evidence to that, but plenty of evidence that he can be a shallow and parochial thinker and that his success in a specialized field is not an indicator of global intellectual accomplishment.
Calling the hurtful and very stupid things he said, ‘racist’ is not only formally inaccurate but it dilutes the meanings of this indictment we must have to fully confront the real manifestations of racism that are plentiful around us.
This is a sideshow to the real issues in a hard world. Why can’t we do better?
ABL
there you go, telling folks what the “real issues” are.
again, you miss the point.
ABL
@DaBomb:
no. they don’t.
they want to make it about errrrrything else but that. :)
ABL
@Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill: i have that person pied, but your response is gold.
Mnemosyne
@JC:
You do realize that you just came up with a very intellectual way of saying, “How come black people can call each other ‘nigger’ and I can’t?”
Criticism that comes from within a group is very different than criticism that comes from outside of a group. Like it or not, Cornell West can say things about black people that you cannot, because he is criticizing from the inside. He is part of the group that he is criticizing. He is criticizing someone who is inside of that group. You are not inside of that group, so you cannot make the same criticisms that West does.
I see it’s time for me to post my new favorite “Sesame Street” video again for people who have trouble distinguishing between being outside of something and being inside of something.
Bondo
@Lysana: thank you for the thoughts, and since you dont appear to be Elle (since she called me buttfuck stupid I’ll wait for her to respond) I’ll simply say I didnt feel the need to come out to Balloon Juice, particularly when several of you seem to be homophobes, but yes, I am gay, and thats why you may have noticed I’m more comfortable talking about gay examples than racial ones.
And so, when people like Elle and Thymezone claim to be the tolerant ones, and then call me butt fuck stupid and i’m so emo I want–crave!– Obama to massage my prostate https://balloon-juice.com/2011/09/15/racist-shit/#comment-2779739 I have no course but to call bullshit.
They’re all ready to scream at Moore, but they’re just as bad, if not worse, as he is.
And yes, Kathy Griffon is funny, Michelle Bachmann is not, and no, Dan Savage isnt bullying Rick Santorum.
lacp
ABL, why can’t you just get with the program and accept that liberal white people know what racist language is far, far better than people of un-whiteness will ever know? I mean, we CARE so much, and you’re not even giving us points for TRYING..
DaBomb
@Mnemosyne:
Love that.
Cornel West is a bad example to use as “Lookie, lookie, even blacks don’t like him…” shrillness.
Mainly because his criticisms are personal. He was pissed that he couldn’t get an extra ticket to the inauguration, but the bellboy at his hotel received more tickets and that PBO was calling back people other than him.
It’s not policy based criticism, it’s envy.
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
What is your “formal definition” of racism? It seems to preclude any possibility of casual racism, or people picking up on cultural cues and saying racist things that they don’t realize are racist until they examine them.
Frankly, I think one of the neatest tricks that conservatives have managed is to convince people that unless a person consciously hates black people and deliberately says hurtful things, it’s impossible for that person to say something racist. Then we have to get into all of that “but is he really racist in his heart?” bullshit when it doesn’t matter. If you say something hurtful to someone, you don’t get a free pass because you said it out of ignorance instead of malice. You don’t get to complain that the other person is oversensitive because you didn’t mean to hurt them.
Imagine for a minute that you were getting into an elevator and accidentally stepped on someone’s foot. If they say “Ow!” do you lecture them about how they shouldn’t even mention that you hurt them because they should have known that you did it accidentally?
Mnemosyne
@DaBomb:
I’m mostly saying this out of ignorance, what with being a suburban white girl and all, but I also sometimes wonder if West is expressing some of the tension between native-born African-Americans and the growing black immigrant community from places like Africa or the Caribbean. Obama didn’t “earn” his blackness because his father immigrated here or something like that. I’ve overheard a few mutterings along those lines but it’s mostly invisible to me if it exists.
Keith G
@ABL:
Are there not situations of real racist/sexist/homophobic/antisemitic (etc) behavior that can be contrasted with other claimed behaviors that just do not measure up?
Or is every claim always true?
Humans seem to have a knack for filling in what was not intended.
AxelFoley
@Loviatar:
Mothafucka, no one’s making you or any of those other fuckin’ trolls to click on ABL’s diaries. You don’t like her diaries, don’t click on them, plain and simple.
But no, you and the rest of them stupid bitches just have to click on them and spew your bullshit all over.
Don’t like ABL, don’t click her diaries. Simple as that, you simple bitch. That goes for the rest of you bitch-ass trolls.
Keith G
@Mnemosyne:Racism is a determined and perpetuated construct. It is purposeful and thought out. It is not accidental or casual. Imagine, if you will, a casual Nazi or a Klansman.
Dear lord, I would never say that and I am a bit put off that you would assume and not ask. There is a difference between racial/ethnic insensitivity and racism, but insensitive comments must be confronted, but with a different level of vigor.
Darnell From LA
Moore is a fool. And he also suffers from detachment from reality…i.e. “continuing Bush’s wars?”
1)Iraq is being brought to an end in exactly the same manner that Obama ran on in his campaign.
2)Focusing on Afghanistan is also, yes, something that Obama ran on in the campaign.
Moore is one of these guys who apparently heard something from Obama during the campaign that Obama never actually said. Huh, maybe more of the “black guy” thing, huh?
Idiot.
Bondo
@ABL: Now that I have told the whole balloon juice world I’m gay, let me say I dont have a problem with the Pink tutu comment, and that is at least as homophobic as it is sexist, considering Obama is a man. I think its funny. And true.
As for the rest of it, I’m at the point where I want the crazies to be crazy, because it lets people know who they are. And I dont think people like maher “enable” racism or contribute to it when they call people out. It just makes the real crazies that much crazier, when they feel cornered and compelled blurt out “but some of my best friends are…”
As for Cole and the progressives there are examples of him calling general progressives out, (heatlthcare, etc) as well as several posts telling gay people to shut up and stop rocking the boat, cause everythings going to be all right.
In that sense, Cole, several of the commenters and maybe you are/were coming at politics from a “don’t worry, theres a democrat in office now, he has 4-8 years” And I’m coming at it from a time is short, and besides in early 2010 it was clear the midterms would be a disaster, and Balloon juice (and more importantly many elected democrats, party insiders and apologists) were still telling us to shut up and put a smile on our faces.
AxelFoley
@JC:
I’m pretty sure if you checked ABL’s blog, you’ll see that she ripped Cornel West a new one. I know other predominantly black blogs did, in particular WEE See You (now Pragmatic Obots Unite). We tore into West’s ass, and do so on a contiual basis for his bullshit.
Darnell From LA
I voted for Joe Don Baker, and instead I got Alexander Graham Bell!
That doesn’t even make sense, but I’m Michael Moore! And making zero fucking sense is what I do! Now I will go and cry because Osama Bin Laden was killed during the raid!
WAAAhhhhh!
Me: Michael Moore is a fucking Bozo of Bozonic proportions.
Darnell From LA
@Bondo: Can we please stop feeding this troll? It’s almost midnight on the East Coast, and if you feed this troll after midnight I’ve heard he will transform into Lee Atwater with a scorching case of rabies.
Beware.
Keith G
@Mnemosyne: You and I have commented back and forth for years now (time flies) and you might recall that I am gay and an AIDS patient.
In my time, I have heard an amazing amount of comments ranking from silly to horrible. I could choose the label such “homohatred” or “homophobia” right off. Instead, I usually go with “stupid”. Then I engage as necessary. Sometimes hurtful things are said from disdain or hatred, often they are not.
Well, that’s my take, anyway.
eemom
@AxelFoley:
dayum. He must have a shitload of new assholes by now. Haw haw.
Bondo
@Darnell From LA: Spoken like a true balloon juicer. Anybody who disagrees with the Balloon Juice hive mind is a troll.
eemom
@FlipYrWhig:
hey, I LIKE this game.
I voted for Aristotle and what I got was Spiro Agnew!
I voted for Louis Brandeis and got Bernie Madoff!
I voted for Oscar Wilde and got Andrew Sullivan!
Keith G
@eemom:
Now that would be fucking disappointment.
FlipYrWhig
@Keith G: Srsly. Talk about the love that dare not speak its name.
Bondo
@Mnemosyne: Well, if you send an email or letter out wondering if they’ll have to change the name of the white house to the black house when Obama moves in, you might be a racist.
And if you print out some Obama Bucks, where the president is a donkey and he’s surrounded by pictures of watermelons and fried chicken, you might be a racist.
And if you claim that the brown people started the wildfire without any shred of evidence to back up your claim, you might be a racist.
might be = are. I had to keep some of the Jeff Foxworthy phrasing intact.
Tony P.
@ribletsonthepan: You’re right. I am a racist moron like Maher and Moore, and the fact that the three of us proudly and enthusiastically voted for Barack Obama only PROVES that we are racist morons. You don’t want to have anything to do with people like me and Maher and Moore. That’s fine — it’s your call.
But your disdain won’t turn me against Barack Obama no matter how hard you try. Obama is smarter than you are, and smart is what I want in a President.
If Barack Obama himself told me that he considered Maher’s line “racist”, and explicitly renounced the support of people like Maher and Moore and me, I would STILL support him because the ACTUAL racists are ON THE OTHER SIDE. I think (I really do think) that Barack Obama understands that. It’s one (just one) of the reasons I think he’s smarter than you are.
–TP
Admiral_Komack
@soonergrunt:
Oh, they get it.
Bondo
@Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill: sorry i missed this before, I never said or implied people were monolithic. people have different opinions and expectations, and people want to be called different things.
Bill Maher Rocks, and he’s fighting the good fight.
Here’s Maher on This Week, on *sunday television* for crying out loud, the heart of all deranged villager BS, calling out racism in the republican party, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w22yK30sobg&feature=related
and George Will hilariously objects, he’s shocked that Maher said the republican party only wants government intrusion against people who arent white!
Thats *exactly* what the republican party is all about! They cheer on when the uninsured get sick and die. They cheer Rick Perry on when he murders innocent people, and then they turn around and lie about death panels. They want the governement to interfere with gay peoples lives, They bitch about covering contraception, and tell people what to do with their bodies. Dick Cheney says you don’t have anything to hide why should you care if the government is spying on you. Remember William Bennett? He made a living telling other people what to go do to themselves, and then got all indignant when some other conservative busybodies told Bennett he shouldnt go gambling!
Rick Scott in Florida? Drug test the welfare recipients! Lets find ways to prevent the poor from voting! Does that guy look brown, we dont want you here in arizona!
Oh, and HEY YOU MUSLIMS! You can’t have a mosque in new york because its too close to ground zero, and guess what, Tennessee is too close to ground zero too! Republicans are going so far to invent some bullshit rationale to explain why islam isnt a religion (islam has laws, so its not a religion!)
If anyone tried this shit on christians Republicans would be screaming bloody murder.
The entire motto of the Republican party is don’t tread on me, tread on thee.
On the Fareed Zakaria clip especially, I say rock on. I guess you’re uspet about the gangster remark, but every single thing he says in the clip is true. Maher isnt saying he hoped Obama would be an out of control criminal that routinely breaks the law, He wanted Obama to get tough with the republicans.
ding
Michael Moore voted for the “black (the audacity of hope) guy” and got the “white (the same old shit) guy” – this is an insult to white guys
Jc
Wow – go away for a bit, come back, and someone’s gone off into a rage.
I reread the work from king, as you suggested. It simply is the truth, there is very little there about “racist” versus “racist statements”.
That is simply true.
So where did all this come from? It doesn’t have much to do with what I said?
Listen the breakdown between a racism, a racist statement, prejudice, and a prejudice statement, you’ve basically proved, is not clear.
“may god have mercy on your soul”. So I get he same treatment as a convicted killer before he goes to the gas chamber?
That’s just silly.
brantl
Moore is side-stepping what he said, in an attempt to explain what he meant. Is he entitled to side-step what he actually said? No. Is he entitled to explain what he actually meant? Sure, isn’t everybody, since none of us (that we know of)can read minds?
I suspect he knows better now, let it go.
Tonybrown74
Oh my gawd!
Linking characteristics – be they positive or negative – to skin color is racist. It’s as simple as that. That is why Moore’s STATEMENT is racist.
E.g. Asians are good at Math.
Doesn’t sound negative, but it is still a racist statement.
How do people not see that?
harlana
eh meh gahd, the Maher thing was even worse! always considered him to be sort of a douche anyway. Confirmed.
brantl
@Kola Noscopy:
Just because you disagree, doesn’t entitle you to be an asshole.
harlana
and in right-wing world, we have Limbaugh referring to the president as a man-child (=boy)
brantl
@Loviatar: you are perpetuating the problem by calling people obots. Are you that one-dimensional?
B W Smith
This thread is in it’s dying phase so I’m not sure why I’m adding my two cents but here goes. I live in the heart of the south and if my lily white self can see that this was a racist statement by Moore, I’m confused as to why others can’t. Why has there been post after post defending Moore and by extension Maher? Because you are defending your own thoughts. If what Moore said was a racist statement, then things that you have said and thought were racist statements, too. Just as Moore’s statement was probably not intentionally racist, your statements are probably not either. How do you know they are offensive unless someone calls it out? I have a story of an unintentional racist remark I’d like to share.
My son went to a completely integrated high school where race was rarely a factor. Many kids today just don’t see things like race and sexual orientation as a big deal. He had a group of friends that did everything together that included whites, blacks, and latinos. They called each other “my boys” like “My boys and I are going out to the game”. It was a term of endearment. This group hung together long after high school. Flash forward to my son’s first job after college. He became an assistant pro at golf course. Part of his job was as a supervisor of the caddies at the course. These caddies were majority black in their mid 50’s. After my son had been there for a few weeks and had built some rapport, he greeted them one morning by saying “How are my boys this morning.” He was shocked at the response. These men were gravely offended and upset. He didn’t understand because of the way the words were accepted within his peer group. Later that morning, he called me and told me about what happened, he was very upset that he offended these men. I explained that for men of their generation, that was a racist slight thrown at them by whites to demean. Once he understood, this 25 year old sat down and spoke with them again. He apologized for his lack of understanding and told them that even though he meant no harm, he understood that he had harmed. He told them that he respected their feelings and their hard work and would never do that again.
So if a 25 year old can apologize for unacceptable statements, why can’t a 50 something accept that he harmed with his words, intentionally or not? It is really not that hard unless you’re really not sorry or you’re too prideful to admit you were wrong.
fuckwit
@Culture of Truth: Maher is a half-Jewish, half-Irish guy. Write yer own jokes in retaliation, if you like, or just marvel at the lack of self-awareness.
Boring boring boring. We’re people. We’re all just fucking people. We have whatever race or race-combination we have because our parents fucked (and if you want to hear the work of a great comedian, look up Bill Hicks’ routine about patriotism).
Yep, a one-sentence apology is all Moore needed to do. If he’d done it days ago, this whole clusterfuck might have not even needed to have happened. People who talk for a living sometimes stay stupid things. It happens. And if you’re explaining too much, you’re making excuses, or hiding something. Any parent, any cop, knows that.
Bravo ABL.
fuckwit
@Mnemosyne: THIS. Exactly.
Look, if we stop looking at this as matters of principle or logic or debate, and instead look at it as we’re all humans and humans have feelings, and we all care about each other and are in it together (and I mean, really, what more “progressive” and “liberal” way, not to mention “Christian” or even “humanist” way, is there to look at it?!), then this is so fucking easy.
I don’t want to hurt people’s feelings. Hurting people’s feelings is bad, not because of any technical definition or racism or intent or blah blah blah, but because I like people, I like being nice, and I don’t want to foul anyone unless I absolutely have to. If I do, I feel bad about it. BECAUSE THAT’S WHAT BEING A HUMAN BEING IS ALL ABOUT.
You know, the “empathy” that the right wing is always looking on with disdain– I thought here in progressive-land we were supposed to be all about it.
eemom
@B W Smith:
Thank you for sharing that. It really made me feel good. One of the few comments on any of these threads that points the simple way towards healing, and not perpetuating, the hideous legacy of racism.
I’m particularly happy to hear about your son’s integrated HS and his group of friends, and I hope there are more places where that’s the case than I thought. Unfortunately we are nowhere near it in my neck of the woods (“liberal” Northern Virginia).
justawriter
@Tonybrown74:
So is the statement, “people of African American descent are concentrated in urban areas” a racist statement? Is ABL’s nom de guerre racist because it describes her as angry and black? And is it racist to say that policies that would be good for this country have a much higher level of support in the black community than in the white community and the president has only tepidly supported those policies? Because that is plainest reading of what Moore said.
JC
Last thought, I hope.
I have always maintained that what Moore said, was badly said.
And OF COURSE people can and do say racist things. A lot of people in these threads have done so. My apologies if my comment came off as it was otherwise.
My inquiry/rumination was more in the matter of two things – how dependent on the context a ‘racist statement’ is. And West and Moore, who say similar things, illuminate this.
Or rather, sometimes is. Sometimes it is VERY CLEAR what is a racist comment, no doubt about that.
In the case of Moore, who I respect a lot for what he has DONE, to make things better for those who are less fortunate – and he has plowed millions into good causes – I objected to ABL using this statement as a method to delegitimize his criticisms, and basically DISCREDIT him. Which is wrong to do.
Also, even in ABL’s comment back to you, about how ‘you got me’, and her smile. Again, this method of MEAN GIRL argumentation, this ‘outrage as a weapon of discourse’ – Fox uses it all the time, the VRWC use it all the time, Hamsher and the emoprogs use it.
I object to this, here at Balloon Juice, because it – was – one of the places you could go, and people could argue, and strongly, but be willing to admit they are wrong, and aside for some trolls, argue in good faith.
ABL has ruined this – and never argues in good faith, never is willing to admit she is wrong.
And being here for 8 years, I’ll continue to argue against ABL’s mode of argumentation, because all it does is creates ‘the good group’ and the ‘enemy group’ – which is useful to use when Republicans are attempting to gut this country for the middle class, but stupid and counter-productive when arguing with people who agree with you.
“Judean Liberation Front – Splitters!”
Corner Stone
@Blogger FKA Maimonides:
This from a climate change denialist?
Tonybrown74
@justawriter:
You’re a bloody idiot.
If you can’t see that saying, “a lot of Asians LIVE in Fields Corner,” is not the same as saying, “a lot of Asians ARE good at math,” then you are the ultimate simpleton.
Or you are just trying real, REAL hard to cling to that privilege.
Which is what I suspect.
Corner Stone
@AxelFoley:
Good God. I hope FlipYrNick had his blogmuffs on when scrolling through this viciously personal attack.
Corner Stone
@AxelFoley:
Why would anyone want to do that? Even TNC himself links to the article here at BJ.
Binky the consumer bear
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
justawriter
@Tonybrown74: Alack! Thoust clever taunt hast pierced me like an arrow unto the quick!
Seriously, this is reminding me more and more of the whole “telling me ‘Happy Holidays’ is a War on Christmas” debate. Offensensitivity at its finest.
Actually what I see is more along the lines of someone making a statement like “crime is a problem in minority neighborhoods and we need to do more to protect minority families and neighborhood businesses” is interpreted as “we need to arrest more minorities.”
My larger concern is that Moore’s analysis was accurate and nobody is talking about that. Obama is bleeding support from both his base and independents according to the last Gallup poll I saw. Attacking Moore for saying it won’t change that.