Positive reasons to get up and keep fighting, since you are not alone:
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(h/t Dave Weigel at Slate)
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And many thanks to Thers at Eschaton (h/t BJ commentor mcd410x) for feeding my woman-crush:
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I hear all this, you know, “Well, this is class warfare, this is whatever.”—No!
There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody.
You built a factory out there—good for you! But I want to be clear.
You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for.
You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate.
You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for.
You didn’t have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did.
Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea—God bless. Keep a big hunk of it.
But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along.
Send this in reply to the next ‘John Galt 2012’ chain email from the low-information voters among your family and/or acquaintances. With love!
Yutsano
SOCIALLIST!!
(you know that’s coming. I say we embrace it.)
Wildebeest
Cons, libertarians, and rich greedy bastards (usually they are one and the same) can’t draw lines, can’t connect dots.
Jebediah
I read that Orange Boner will have a teatard primary challenger who claims Drinky McGolfcourse is a sockalist.
Darnell From LA
All I gotta say is…..Warren 2016!
This woman is a natural. And I’m serious; you think after 4 years in the Senate, when Obama is finishing his 2nd term and Joe Biden is too old to run, that there WON’T be a “draft Elizabeth Warren” campaign?? Puleeze!
Warren 2016! The ghost of Huey Long (w/out the crazy corruption) rides again!
Jebediah
@Darnell From LA:
Hear, hear!
Darnell From LA
@Jebediah: Someone needs to redefine the parts of our society that ARE NOT free market based. Like roads, bridges, parks, fire depts, social security, FEMA, etc…so on.
If we can get to a point in this country where it is understood that something LIKE socialism is not only OK, but already part of our national fabric, then it will open up our society to great advance.
I don’t think America is ready (read “smart enough”) for it yet. But give it a few more years and who knows.
Mustang Bobby
I wish I could write a book about people I don’t know sharing gossip about people I don’t know doing things I don’t care about. Then I could go on daytime cable TV like Ron Susskind and get some money for it.
Beats working.
Mino
She’s already caught and passed Brown in PPP polling.
I know it’s blue Mass., but I’d bet that caliber of liberal candidate would be competetive in a lot more states, even purple ones.
drunken hausfrau
Woohoo! More of this please!!!!
Anne Laurie
@Darnell From LA: First, Warren has to be elected Senator. Don’t muddy those waters. Senator Elizabeth Warren, 2012!
gene108
@Darnell From LA:
As well as grandma Warren has aged, she’s in her 60’s already. She’d be on the upper bound of the age, in 2016, we the electorate would consider for possible Presidents.
Looked her up on the intertubes…she’d be 67 in 2016…which is really flirting with the age barrier in Presidential politics…
gene108
I can just hear the wing-nuts now:
No. No. No. You stupid ivory tower communist.
The taxes the factory owning job creator paid made it possible to educate his workers, build the roads, and pay for the police.
The factory comes first. The money the factory makes pays for the rest of the stuff. Without the factory government wouldn’t exist, because government is a leach on the job creators and government can kill itself off and destroy society, by sucking money from the job creators via taxes.
The blind faith wing-nuts have in their talking points is a religion, in and of itself, without the redeeming points of religion like charity and kindness.
Splitting Image
Do you know what’s really funny?
Warren’s speech is the essence of what a couple of decades back would have been called conservatism. Hippie-punching became the popular sport that it was back in the 1960s because a lot of the people who “dropped out” were privileged little morons seemed to have no awareness of how much work previous generations had done to give them the options they had, and no inclination to find out.
How times have changed….
Warren actually reminds me here of the old-school Republican that Kung-Fu Monkey once said that he missed so much. The fact that the idea of Elizabeth Warren as a Republican is so laughable tells you all you need to know.
goblue72
Meanwhile, the GOP wants the Fed to stop doing anything to assist the economy – at least until the next election – http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/21/business/economy/gop-urges-no-further-fed-stimulus.html?_r=1&hp
Villago Delenda Est
John Galt = three year old screaming at the top of his or her lungs
The wingtards all need a time out. In a corner. Without their supper.
If that doesn’t work…
Spankings.
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
Mornin Joe
“What Rick Perry and Mitt Romney are doing is posing for political gain and it is dangerous, reckless and irresponsible.”
harlana
@Darnell From LA: I could not help myself from thinking same thing. hope for the future?
harlana
currently, Warren leads Brown 46/44
why only 2 points?
ok, it’s early i know, but holy bejeebus, thot Massachussets peeps were smarter than the average bear.
how could they have elected this clown in the first place?
harlana
@Raven (formerly stuckinred):
Ho said that? Cuz it’s really scaring me that sometimes I agree with him now or at least 1/2 of whatever point he is making at the time, sometimes.
VidaLoca
Wrong. Class warfare has been going on in this country since even before it was a country, and with particular vengeance since the ascent of Ronaldus Magnus. Only new thing is, finally there’s some push-back; now we hear the whimpering, “Oh noes! Class warfare, class warfare! Must not have class warfare!” Fuck that. Let’s have more class warfare. Let’s just get beyond losing every time.
Not that I fundamentally disagree with her position, and I understand why she spins it the way she does, and I wish her all the best in the election. Somebody’s going to hold that office and I’d sure rather it be Elizabeth Warren than some random party hack. But at the same time we shouldn’t lose track of the fact that a lot of the people who are actively waging class warfare against us are nominally Democrats…
Omnes Omnibus
@Splitting Image: Liberal and conservative, left and right, exist in the context of their time not in a vacuum.
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
@harlana: This was in the context of Israel.
John S.
At least you realize what a foolish position this is to take publicly. The reason even non-rich folk bristle at the notion of class warfare is because a lot of them hold out hope that the American Dream can happen to them, and they don’t want to be punished for that.
Which is why this isn’t class warfare, it’s math.
dr. luba
As Mrs. Betty Bowers once said, they only call it class war when we shoot back.
harlana
@Raven (formerly stuckinred): oh, ok, thanks – don’t have cable anymore so i don’t watch anymore
Omnes Omnibus
@harlana: She just announced. Most people are not political junkies who know who Warren is and what she stands for. I think those number this early are a good sign. I also like that she seems to like campaigning and getting out to the the meet and greets with regular people. She will be willing to stand outside Fenway and shake hands.
harlana
Rick Perry is a fuckstick
Jeff
@harlana:
I know that’s probably snark and I should just let it be–
but just realize that there has been a 17 point swing in a little over a month. In the world of large populations that is huge. If she keeps it up she’ll be up 20 points by December.
Boudica
@harlana: I’m thinking Joe has been hanging around with Rachel and some of it is seeping into his brain.
Lojasmo
@gene108:
McCain was 72 in 2008…and a cancer survivor, and he looked like shit.
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
@Lojasmo: Did you know he was a POW?
Omnes Omnibus
@Raven (formerly stuckinred): Really? He never made a big deal of it. Classy guy, that McCain.
sherparick
Most libertarians I have met usually come from the upper middle class or upper class. They just assume the social capital they inherited as children (a safe, comfortable home and neighborhood, frequent travel, educated parents, good schools with competent teachers, in general the warp and woof of the ordered civilization they come of age in, is a given, and that they owe nothing to the rest of society except pursuing their own careers and enriching themselves (see McCardle, Meagan).
Re Elizabeth Warren (and I have a crush on her to), we will see how this unfolds, but I was always a little more confident about Warren’s ability to be an effective politician then some in the blogosphere. She was willing to risk the wrath of the academia by going out and writing and selling popular books. And that training in going out meeting average people and going on book tours is perfect preparation for taking up retail politics. http://www.amazon.com/Elizabeth-Warren/e/B001HD310U
She is also an example of that you can be a rational liberal and a Christian, as Christianity does come in real infinite variety, and is not defined solely by Fundamentalist Christianism or Benedict’s counter-reformation Catholicism.
NobodySpecial
@efgoldman: Plus the pickem’up truck. Don’t forget that.
Feudalism Now!
The free market will provide better alternatives to those crumbling and failing government institutions. Think of the quality education provided by Charter and private schools. Look at the way privatization has helped Pennsylvania’s highway system. Industries will regulate themselves. We only need a ‘gov’t’ to provide a national defense and even that can become a lucrative industry like Black…Xe.
Paul in KY
@NobodySpecial: and the centerfold, don’t forget that either.
deep cap
It’s going to be a tough fight against Scott Brown.
The Log Cabin Republicans have been loudly crediting him with being the Tie-breaking vote in ending DADT. So the politically mediocre in Massachusetts will assume that he’s a centrist and vote for him.
FlipYrWhig
@Splitting Image:
I don’t remember collective responsibility ever being the essence of conservatism.
elmo
@Villago Delenda Est:
Yes! Yes! They must all have a GOOD spanking!
(But after that, I think I’ll pass on the oral sex.)
/python nerd
waratah
She was great on Morning Joe this morning.
celtidragonchick
@elmo:
Meh. You beat to that joke.
/pouts in corner…/
Monty Python & the Holy Grail was mandatory memorization when I was in 5/17 Cav in Korea. When a lot of unit was drunk on Hail and Farewell nights, you would swear we were doing an English version of the Rocky Horror Picture Show with the way we acted out the Holy Grail verbatim.
The Troop commander was the only guy not in on the jokes. Somebody took pity on him and loaned him a copy (mine, I think, since when I would loan it to one officer it would get passed around to several others before I could get it back) so he could understand what we were all laughing at.
Chris
@Darnell From LA:
This.
One of the most unfortunate parts of the New Deal is that it didn’t end up as a “teachable moment.” It’s remembered as FDR saving capitalism rather than FDR turning it into something different and better.
jwest
Elizabeth Warren should rethink her position.
Telling people who want to build factories to build them overseas will hurt the economy. She makes it clear that business people should use the police, fire and educational assets of other countries, otherwise the U.S. government will seize a substantial portion of their hard-earned profits to redistribute for “fairness”.
Yes, we have a social compact where everyone (should) contribute to roads, basic services, etc., but most in the wealth-creating class still believe in private property and not punishing people for success.
Lee
@Chris:
When I point to to my teabilly friends that we have been practicing socialism for at least 160 years (transcontinental railroad) and we seem to have done just fine, they get very very upset with me.
(when did the FYWP filter for socialism go away?)
Chris
@Lee:
Don’t think it was – I was in moderation for that comment, it just cleared up a lot faster than usual.
Mark
Taxes as “pay it forward” is very good.
We talk constantly of the debt future generations are being saddled with. “Pay it forward” speaks directly to that as part of the solution.
jwest
Lee,
Your Tea Party friends probably know the truth about the transcontinental railroad.
Like most liberal revisionist history, the fantasy that the transcontinental railroad was an example of government building something useful is insane. If the government actually did embark on building the railroad in 1863, it would still be under construction today.
The government did what it should be doing today. It issued land grants of public property to provide the environment for private industry to build the railroads. Individuals and corporations put up the money and the profit motive made it a success.
kay
@jwest:
Come on. This is gibberish. Either we have a social compact with rights and responsibilities or we don’t, and a social compact based on tangible public benefit received is not incompatible with your rote recitation of this: “believe in private property” and “not punishing people for success”.
How about this: are the wealth-creating class receiving these publicly-funded benefits or not, and if they are, why won’t they pay for them?
What’s it worth to you? The whole package? Public education, roads, infrastructure, police, court system, workers comp, unemployment insurance, the whole public scheme that the “wealth creating class” relies on to make money, and that we ALL pay for?
Why won’t you pay for it? Since when is a reasonable bill for public services received “punishment”? What a crazy thing for so-called free market fans to spout.
Christ. You didn’t even have to contribute to setting it up, you didn’t even make the initial investment, your grandparents did, and you’ve been sponging off returns on that investment ever since. It was all here when you arrived on the scene. Pay up. It’s your turn.
grandpajohn
@jwest: Do you really have no reading comprehension or are you just another fucking idiot troll?
catclub
“But I want to be clear.”
Made me think of somebody else who just says ‘words, just words’.
Also, ‘Taxes are the price we pay for civilization.’
They just don’t believe that (anymore?).
gene108
@Lojasmo:
McCain is also the oldest person ever to seek the Presidency. The second oldest was Ronald Reagan in 1980, at the age of 69.
I’m just pointing out Warren’s age may be an issue in 2016, in terms of historical precedent of the how old Presidents are, when they get elected.
I think 55ish is the historical sweet spot, age wise, for getting elected President.
If she won the Presidency in 2016, I think Reagan and William Henry Harrison, would be the only two Presidents ever older than her, at the time of the inauguration.
kay
@grandpajohn:
“Everyone (should) contribute”, and he WOULD. He would do that. Really.
Except… “private property” and “punishing success”. Those two principles he holds are somehow getting in the way of him paying for stuff.
I love it. It’s the best response I’ve ever heard from a deadbeat presented with a bill that’s due.
Shinobi
@gene108: But women have a longer life expectancy so maybe their presidential sweet spot should be older?
Unrealistic presidential dream team: Warren/Franken 2016
jwest
Kay,
We’ve already past the point where more than half the country contributes nothing. They pay into the social security Ponzi scheme, but that’s it.
Right now, we producers pay it keep the sponges safe, we allow them to drive on our roads, we educate their children, and we supplement their income – all without thanks. In return, we get anger and envy from the very people we support.
It’s time for those who believe that it’s unfair that people who succeed “owe” more to those who don’t to rethink their position.
Kane
The reason that so many have always wanted to come to America is not solely for the promise of freedom. Many have yearned for the American Dream because our entire structure is built for the success of business. The public as a whole pays for the infrastructure, educating the workforce, police and fire departments, providing assorted tax breaks, loans, incentives and a vast array of expenditures for business that other countries can’t/won’t provide.
The notion that a millionaire in America is “self-made” is a myth. Through shared sacrifice, we the people have made the success possible for individual businesses to thrive. They would not have been anywhere near as successful if they had lived and worked in Peru or Ethiopia.
Shinobi
@jwest: What exactly are those people supposed to contribute? Jon Stewart did a great piece a while ago where he pointed out that if we took half of everything the poor people owned, we would get about the same amount as if we raised taxes on the wealthy.
It is also important to note that poor people getting more money to spend stimulates the economy much more than wealthy people having more money. A person who is supporting a family on less than 40k a year will spend nearly every extra dollar they get. What they don’t spend will be put in an emergency fund that will get spend way sooner than I’m sure they would like. They will buy clothes, food, maybe replace some stuff that needs replacing.
If you give money to wealthy people they just say thanks an put it with the other piles of money.
In the interests of making us all richer it is better for the rich to subsidize the poor. There are more of them, if the poor can’t buy anything, then the economy stalls. Who cares if all the rich people go out and buy new coach bags and G6s, that still wont stimulate the economy as much as low income families being able to feed their children something other than chicken and rice.
jwest
“If you give money to wealthy people…”
Who is “giving” money to wealthy people? The government?
That’s the difference between a capitalist and a socialist. You believe all the money belongs to the government and whatever the individual is allowed to keep from their labor is a gift. Capitalists believe that what people earn is theirs.
But the problem is more insidious than that. Liberals have adopted a streak of envy so pervasive that if the government discovered a new mineral on federal land that would fund all spending, the left would still want to tax “the rich” just because they believe it’s unfair that some should have more than others.
It’s an ugly sickness that runs throughout the left.
Judas Escargot
My fave line:
This short, simple sentence needs to be written on a board and nailed to the forehead of every would-be Galtian overlord. (Written backwards, so they can read it in the mirror.)
Unabogie
@jwest:
It’s amazing how fast you glommed on to the “Ponzi Scheme” talking point. Yes, Social Security is just like a Ponzi scheme in that it in no way resembles a Ponzi scheme. You know, fraud, secret accounting, only the scammers ever get paid, etc.
Just like Social Security? Where do you come up with such nonsense? Aren’t you embarrassed to so quickly parrot something and idiot like Rick Perry said? It makes you look like a moron.
Just stop.
kay
@jwest:
Right. Sure they don’t. I’ll be sure and tell them that the next time conservatives are blathering on and on about the inherent glory of work, trying to get elected. I’ll be sure to mention that you’re all running around saying people don’t contribute anything, which you are. All you’re doing is reciting what the leaders say.
Why do you think low-wage work is “nothing”? What nerve. Where do you get off with that? How about I tell you you’re not “contributing” anything? Are all these “wealth creators” telling their low-wage workers that? That payroll taxes and the rest of the taxes they pay are “nothing”? That their work is “nothing”?
The fact is that your grandparents and great-grandparents paid a much higher percentage in taxes, and built infrastructure, and you are simply sponging off the returns on that initial investment. You waltzed in to a fully-furnished house and now you’re bitching about paying to fix the roof, or paint it. Poor you. It’s like punishment, maintaining what was handed to you.
jwest
Unabogie,
“You know, fraud, secret accounting, only the scammers ever get paid…”
A Ponzi scheme is a confidence game that pays those who are in early money in order for others coming in late to believe they will receive the same returns. Fraud and secret accounting would be making the public believe that their contributions were safe in a “lock box” while spending every dime the minute it comes in.
Don’t fear knowledge. When you learn what things are, you’ll be better prepared to discuss them in an intelligent way.
gogol's wife
@grandpajohn:
As someone who is familiar with the cast of characters here, I can confidently say that it’s the latter.
jwest
Kay,
At least we’re paying to fix the roof. You’re people are just lying around on the couch, eating Cheetos and bitching they aren’t getting enough allowance.
Judas Escargot
@jwest:
You write as though those land grants don’t represent value, which they did (Congress basically raffled off govt-owned land at low low prices– essentially a financial giveaway for the cause). It was also the US government that funded the project, by issuing special 30-year bonds for the purpose.
Private entities did build the railroads, but the government made that happen. Pure private investment would have never built the Pacific line so early, if at all. Too much risk.
(Judas Escargot’s 17th axiom: When a glibertarian utters the words “liberal revisionism”, he’s about to lie about history.)
nancydarling
@gogol’s wife: We have a new acronym for trolls—FIT, Fucking idiot trolls. FITs throwing fits.
kay
@jwest:
I think the “contribute nothing” line is so great on so many levels. I want to put that Limbaugh line up in every break room in the country.
Who do conservatives think they’re talking to, with that? On the one hand, you’re telling every low-wage worker that they pay nothing in taxes, and on the other you’re telling them they’re over-taxed. If your voters ever get a moment of peace in between all the constant screeching bullshit you and your media allies churn out they’re going to start putting this together. They don’t pay any taxes, according to their betters. How can they be over-taxed?
THE
Since AL said this was an open thread:
There is a new application for smart phones — a robot ball called Sphero — and cats seem to find it entertaining.
Sentient Puddle
@jwest:
You do realize that there are things other than income that are taxed, don’t you?
Judas Escargot
@Omnes Omnibus:
Agreed: I have more hope for her campaign than I did just a week ago. And I definitely misunderestimated her ability to reach out to “normal” people.
The Senator from Fidelity also came out, vocally, against the Obama jobs plan very early on. A serious mistake here in high-tech Massachusetts, and IMO his first politically tone-deaf move ever.
Two words, though: Citizens United. Every Galtoid goon and hedge-fund parasite on Wall Street is going to fight tooth, nail and claw to keep Warren out of the Senate, no matter the cost. I suppose I should think of it as “stimulus money” for our local media market, but talk radio is going to get very, very ugly here, and very very soon.
Billy Rae Valentine
@jwest @jwest:
again, this is turning into a chicken vs. the egg argument. now you are saying that the right-wing talking point supreme of “half the country pays no taxes”? that has already been disproven. it’s not true. i don’t want to feed trolls, but it causes me no anger to hear this type of stufff so i can respond calmly.
that little stat is false. furthermore, i would argue that over time, they have paid less but that is because they HAVE less and less over time due to the policies of hyper-capitalism and trickle-down economics while the rich got obscenely richer. so of course now the rich pay, Percentage-wise, a lion’s share of the taxes. of course they do because they have ALL the money. if i pay 10% in taxes and Jay-Z pays 10%, obviously Jay-Z makes about $50 million a year to my 30,000 and he will be contributing more than me. that doesn’t make me a deadbeat. Now, considering I have no tax attorney, no capital gains, and know of no loopholes, I could argue that people like Jay-Z are actually paying LESS than their share because, like GE, they end up not having to pay all the taxes i do. but i digress.
your chicken vs. the egg thinking gets us nowhere. do “you” producers subsidize all of america’s public sphere? no. stop kidding yourself. but do you pay a greater percentage of it? i think so and that’s because we have spent the last 30 years redistributing wealth in America to the rich. and to what result? oh, worst economy since the Depression. your solution? tax the poor more? vs. raise taxers on the rich 3%. wow. i’m sure it will somehow do something NEW this time if we just free up the “producers” to do more of what we’ve already done for them because they hold the country hostage with self-interest. and you want more THANKS? for what? demonization? for claiming that the public roads are “your” roads? they’re not. they’re “ours”. sorry. you need to accept that we share this place; we even share in the burdens of paying into it. so you paid for their educaton? no i did, too. sorry. and you can’t demonize a group and then cry about them demonizing you. it’s ugly.
Shinobi
@jwest: I firmly believe that people who make cracks about poor people laying around eating cheetos should have all their money taken away. You think it is so great to be on the government dole, then do it, quit your job, give all your money and property to charity and enjoy your free life on the US government.
TooManyJens
@jwest:
I guess state income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes don’t exist in your world (the world where Social Security is a Ponzi scheme). Do you really think that the police, fire departments, roads, schools, etc. that Warren talked about are all paid solely from Federal income tax? Do you know anything about the way … well, anything works?
maya
@jwest:
As opposed to the Stock Market Ponzi scheme? Do you even understand what “price earnings ratio” means? I’ll explain: It’s the current stock price divided by its actual per share earnings in the current fiscal quarter. Most stocks are priced anywhere between 15 to 50 times their earnings depending on market conditions and popularity – think bull/bear, Apple/Enron.
All this means is that when you buy stock, any stock, you are never buying its actual value but the value you are willing to pay for it and that you hope others will pay more for in the future because you believe the stocks earnings will go up.
But, remember these very important 8 words: “Past performance is no guarantee of future earnings.” That is the essential caveat in buying any stock offered on the betting table. The value of the total stock market is an inflated value. The book value is the closest thing to its real value and even that’s iffy. So when they report that the market lost X trillion dollars in value they mean that its inflated value, or paper profit value, got punctured. Wasn’t real value at all. When people stop buying stocks what happens? That, buddy, is what Ponzi schemes rely upon – that the suckers will continue to buy in.
Then, of course, you could buy lots and lots of real estate……
Social Security has been around for 75 years, jwest. That’s quite a run so far for a Ponzi scheme. Junk bonds, derivatives….. not so long.
IrishGirl
I had a long, long back and forth with some glibertarians on my blog (http://drangedinaz.wordpress.com) about the “social contract” and how important it is and how they benefit from it. Of course, they decided to argue with the concept of social contract instead of deal with what I was really talking about, was the BS that the rich only give and the rest of us only take.
I begged these supposed “producers” to go Galt. BEGGED them. Because 1) they won’t, 2) they don’t have a clue how hard it would be and 3) its easier to sit around and shit in everyone else’s yard. I wasted far too much time on them and wish I could have communicated my thoughts as succinctly as Elizabeth Warren. She is one of my heroes.
John M. Burt
@Splitting Image: It’s good to be reminded from tiem to time that there is no such word, and no such ideology, as “conservatism”.
The viewpoints we associate in this country with the verbs “liberal” and “conservative” would better be described as “progressive liberalism” and “conservative liberalism”.
We all agree on the basics, the truths that a famous liberal once described as “self-evident”. What unites us really is more profound and important than what divides us.
What we should be doing is pointing out to Republicans that their “conservative liberal” party has been subverted by anti-liberals who really don’t share our common values.
Monala
@harlana: In 2010, the Village Voice had a story titled, “White America Has Lost Its Mind,” featuring cartoon versions of Limbaugh, Beck, Laura Schlesinger, and a few other folks in straight jackets on the cover. The article talked about how nuts a lot of white folks have become since the election of Obama.
I wonder if it’s more than that. A few months ago, my brother sent me a link to a Boston Globe poll that asked whether or not one believed in global warming. The results were reported by race. Seventy or so percent of both African-Americans and Latinos said yes. Among whites, it was only about 43%. So even in well-educated, blue state Massachusetts, less than half of white adults believe in global warming.
Lydgate
Fabulous.
Man, imagine that. A politician (well, she is new to the game) using facts. Just facts.
No scaremongering. No “if you think we’re bad, look what they have to offer…”
Please, please, please let her tactics work.
Anniecat45
@jwest, I certainly do not sit around eating cheetos. I’ve worked since I was 17. I paid all my living expenses while I was in college. I’ve also suffered through disasters that were not of my creation and I know how necessary it is that people help each other, that some kind of safety net exists.
and have you ever heard of the Manhattan Project? From theory to an atom bomb in about 3 years, entirely government run.
Re Elizabeth Warren’s factory — the guy who built the factory probably had to hire a bunch of other people to, you know, actually MAKE the products. He (or she) also probably had a support staff who saved his ass time and time again by keeping track of his schedule and researching his annual reports becuase he was such a special snowflake he didn’t have time for shit work like that. If his factory succeeded, it was also because he had customers who bought his products. Three cheers for Elizabeth Warren for pointing out what ought to be obvious to us all.
demz taters
@Judas Escargot: We also shouldn’t overlook the work that the government did to clear the land of its previous tenants.
Elie
@jwest:
…and the army killed off all the native americans and buffalo to clear the path…
Government in the United States has played a huge role — hand in glove, to help business obtain and create wealth. From slavery, to allowing indentured bondage of chinese laborers to build the railroads, to poor enforcement of existing labor laws, too many to count, the US government has played a major role in wealth creation for private citizens.
jake the snake
@Judas Escargot:
Private entities did build the railroads, mostly immigrants and freed slaves.
The robber barons just wote the checks.
FlipYrWhig
I posted the Warren quote as my Facebook status and it exploded, people picking it up and circulating it everywhere. Never seen anything like it!
Loviatar
Thats how a Democrat talks.
.
She’ll get every bit of the money and effort I would’ve have given to Obama in 2012.
Jess
Doesn’t everyone pay the same tax rate? Everyone’s first 20K is taxed at the same rate, their first 50K is taxed at the same rate, and their first million is taxed at the same rate (that is, at the same rate as everyone else’s). No discrimination there. I really don’t see what there is to squawk about, other than issues like loopholes, tax credits, and deductions.
Judas Escargot
@demz taters:
I was trying to stay on point (I do try): but yes, you’re unfortunately right.
soonergrunt
@IrishGirl: Just give ’em this, next time.
HyperIon
@Lydgate:
This is an OT so…here in WA there is an initiative to get rid of the state liquor stores and let the private sector (with appropriate regulation) sell booze/wine. The video clips for pro and con are striking contrasts.
The pro folks present facts: how tax revenue will be generated and distributed, how who gets a license will be determined, how selling to minor penalties will be increased, etc.
The con folks have an EMT who tells you over and over how many kids he’s seen killed in alcohol fueled auto accidents. “The liquor will run free so be afraid!” seems to be their main message. The liquor industry has contributed over 95% of the funds for the campaign against the initiative.
Lydgate
@HyperIon:
Interesting, but I will show my ignorance and ask why does the liquor industry care if state stores are replaced by privately owned stores?
uptown
@HyperIon:
The pro side shares the fact that the EMT has seen many alcohol fueled auto accidents and they expect more problems with easier access to liquor.
The con side pretends that they have the secret to stopping underage selling and that it’s not a problem that those tax revenue increases are based on selling more alcohol to those that live in the state. I’m sure that won’t cause any problems, because higher alcohol consumption never hurt anybody.
uptown
Whoops, got the con and pro sides backwards.
uptown
There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own…
And we don’t throw failed businessmen in the poor farm until they pay off all their debts or die. We let them keep their personal finances separate from the business and start over with a clean bill of health.
Lydgate
@uptown: But I still don’t understand why the liquor industry prefers state run stores. Why are they funding the fight against the initiative?
Lydgate
@uptown: Yes, that is the point of being incorporated. Why don’t they go Galt, free themselves of those pesky corporate taxes and don’t stnad behind the state to offer them limited liability.
Jebediah
@jwest:
Oh my gawd, you are so right! Can you imagine if the gubbermint tried to do something like go to the moon? Haw haw! Or win a world war?
You are a fucking dipshit.
TenguPhule
Shorter jwest: Lie lie lie lie lie insult lie insult lie insult.
At some point being a Republican in this country is going to have to be considered a crime.
Smedley the uncertain
@kay: I seem to recall that until a hundred years or so ago, fire fighting was a free market service. Multiple fire companies competing to provide protection and standing by while buildings burned if it wasn’t their client. Oh, and also fighting rival companies while buildings burned. Didn’t work out too well and it was the elite business owners with the most to lose who pushed for municipal fire protection.
giantslor
She gives me this weird feeling inside. I think it’s . . . joy.