Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.

They’re not red states to be hated; they are voter suppression states to be fixed.

Putin must be throwing ketchup at the walls.

… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact

The worst democrat is better than the best republican.

It may be funny to you motherfucker, but it’s not funny to me.

Incompetence, fear, or corruption? why not all three?

Accountability, motherfuckers.

Consistently wrong since 2002

A Senator Walker would also be an insult to reason, rationality, and decency.

Insiders who complain to politico: please report to the white house office of shut the fuck up.

Fuck the extremist election deniers. What’s money for if not for keeping them out of office?

Battle won, war still ongoing.

Red lights blinking on democracy’s dashboard

🎶 Those boots were made for mockin’ 🎵

This really is a full service blog.

Being the leader of the world means to be the leader of peace.

A sufficient plurality of insane, greedy people can tank any democratic system ever devised, apparently.

Is it irresponsible to speculate? It is irresponsible not to.

The revolution will be supervised.

But frankly mr. cole, I’ll be happier when you get back to telling us to go fuck ourselves.

Shallow, uninformed, and lacking identity

JFC, are there no editors left at that goddamn rag?

Anyone who bans teaching American history has no right to shape America’s future.

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Reader Interactions

146Comments

  2. 2.

    harlana

    I’m going to be lambasted for saying this, but apparently, the President is now using the bully pulpit. I’m sorry, but that’s what he’s been doing for the last couple of weeks and, in fact, he appears to be ramping that up. Also too, it seems to be working.

    On behalf of all the stinky, smelly, nasty, crazy progressives, I apologize.

    =)

  3. 3.

    Jay C

    C’mon, I know Mandela’s old, but isn’t “800” stretching it just a bit?

    Can’t speak to his collecting habits, though….

  4. 4.

    Judas Escargot

    You can have my excess commas, when you pry them from my cold, dead, hands.

    Same goes for my ellipses…

  8. 8.

    4tehlulz

    I proof documents for engineers for a living. You have no idea how badly I want to use this as irrefutable proof that the Oxford comma is necessary.

  9. 9.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @ harlana: It is a useful tool. Obama is good at it. It just happens to work better in campaign mode than legislative mode.

  11. 11.

    joes527

    So, my kids are having a magazine drive, and I was flipping through the catalogue when I noticed Valerie Bertinelli on the cover of AARP magazine. And she was looking good.

    Once someone told me that inside every old person was a young person wondering what the hell happened. At the time I thought it was a funny thing to say.

  14. 14.

    benjoya

    but in a simple statement, we can lose the oxford, yes? “nasty, brutish and short” is okay? moves a little more.

  15. 15.

    SiubhanDuinne

    To illustrate the importance of the Oxford comma, the professor left this bad example on the board:

    I want to thank my parents, God and Ayn Rand.

    Written underneath was:

    What’s wrong with that?
    Signed, Jesus Rand

  16. 16.

    Corner Stone

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    It is a useful tool. Obama is good at it. It just happens to work better in campaign mode than legislative mode.

    I’m loving this latest meme that’s been ventured here at BJ.
    The BP isn’t a useful rhetorical tool for moving people to your point of view during legislation.
    The BP is a useful rhetorical tool for moving people to your point of view during campaigning.

  18. 18.

    cmorenc

    Copenhagen (Kobenhavn) is one of the most delightfully livable cities in the world, apart from the fact that its climate tends too often to cloudy and chilly. The Danes seem to not know how to make anything truly tacky and ugly, but OTOH they’ve got a deep streak of Felix Ungar orderliness about them, which makes things at once very pleasant and a bit over the top obsessive-compulsive.

  19. 19.

    Catsy

    Copenhagen (Kobenhavn) is one of the most delightfully livable cities in the world, apart from the fact that its climate tends too often to cloudy and chilly. The Danes seem to not know how to make anything truly tacky and ugly, but OTOH they’ve got a deep streak of Felix Ungar orderliness about them, which makes things at once very pleasant and a bit over the top obsessive-compulsive.

    Cloudy, chilly, and OCD… you’re hitting all the selling points for me.

  21. 21.

    Paul in KY

    @THE: The cats didn’t seem to be as excited as mine get (or others I’ve seen) when chasing the laser pointer light. I have a couple that will run thru a wall after the light.

    Maybe these ones had played with it for awhile & were geting a bit jaded.

    I do have one cat that seems to have figured out that I am the one manipulating the light & will not chase it (even though the other 2 are tearing around him after it).

  22. 22.

    aimai

    Loved the post and the Danish police.

    I’d also like to say though I know I’ll get into trouble that I agree with Corner Stone–there isn’t any difference between campaign mode and legislative mode. The old joke is that you spend the first half of your first term blaming your predecessor… I can’t remember the rest but as far as I can see you have to spend the second half of your first term blaming your opposition for what you couldn’t accomplish and promising that if you get back into power and your party does too you will accomplish great things. In order to do that you simply have to bang whatever is handy (excluding dead girls and live boys). The idea that Obama had to remain quiet and demure and above the fray because legislatin’ is different from campaigning is and always was just simply nonsense.

    In both modes he has to be always explaining to the public that if the Republicans would step aside and let Obama and the Dems be Obama and the Dems things would be better. Its the same argument for both positions: legislative advancement and re-election. There’s literally no other argument that can be made politically: I have good ideas and I will implement them. I had good ideas and I would have implemented them except for my enemies. My enemies are your enemies. Reelect me and I will enact my good ideas over the bodies of my/your/our enemies. That is as true for Obama as it was for Bush or for Clinton or anyone else.

    aimai

  23. 23.

    Too Many Jimpersons (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)

    I don’t know, I never liked those commas. They seem to break the flow of reading for me. Maybe it’s because I’m an American; “-our” words, and “got” as a past participle do the same thing, and they’re deeply British usages. When I’m writing and I have a list like the examples above, I tend to use semicolons instead; I don’t know if that works any better, but it lets me feel like I’m not slipping into using Britishisms. (Nothing against Briatain; my own forebears came from there, but that was a looooong tome ago, so I don’t have any ties to the place…)

  24. 24.

    Paul in KY

    @Corner Stone: I disagree. I think it can be a useful tool during the legislative process. You might have to word your points a bit differently (as opposed to what you would say in campaign mode), but explaining in succinct terms what you are trying to do & what is at stake (to me) can only be a positive.

  25. 25.

    General Stuck

    I’d also like to say though I know I’ll get into trouble that I agree with Corner Stone—there isn’t any difference between campaign mode and legislative mode.

    Grotesquely incorrect. Except for the corner stone part.

  27. 27.

    Steeplejack

    I’ll take the opposing view, that an Oxford comma is not necessary. The “a” in the series is subtle but crucial. If you wanted to refer to Nelson Mandela as a demigod and dildo collector, the phrase should read

    Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and dildo collector

    But written as “Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector,” it seems clear enough that three different entities are meant.

  31. 31.

    aretino

    I’m going to be lambasted for saying this, but apparently, the President is now using the bully pulpit. I’m sorry, but that’s what he’s been doing for the last couple of weeks and, in fact, he appears to be ramping that up. Also too, it seems to be working.

    That can only be true for some meaning of “working” that doesn’t include “making Republicans more pliant” or “getting better legislation passed,” because neither of those is happening. Instead, the Republicans are plowing us straight into a another government shutdown crisis. It warms my heart to see Obama taking them on, but it is foolhardy to expect any movement from a totally deranged Republican Party. The Green Lantern theory of presidential influence still doesn’t work.

  33. 33.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @ Corner Stone and aimai: Who is the primary target for communication during election season? Voters. During legislative seasons? Mostly Blue Dogs. Different methods for different groups. I am keeping this fairly short b/c typing on my phone is a pain.

  35. 35.

    cleek

    @Steeplejack:

    Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and dildo collector

    now he’s 800 years old, and collects demigods and dildos.

    or, does he collect 800-year-old demigods and dildos of any age?

    or, does he collect 800-year-old demigods and 800-year-old dildos?

  39. 39.

    General Stuck

    There are many ways to use the bully pulpit during legislating, other than pounding on a lectern, and hollering my way or the highway, simply does not work very well, especially with dems in congress from a dem prsident.

    Obama was using the bully pulpit, albeit slyly, when he gathered dems and repubs in a room with the teevee cameras on, and shifted the onus onto the congress for getting off their ass and passing HCR, when after Scott Brown won, it looked like HCR was dead.

  41. 41.

    KG

    @benjoya: depends…

    “nasty, brutish and short” reads as it is nasty because it is brutish and short.

    “nasty, brutish, and short” reads that it is each of those things separately.

    I think those are two different things.

  42. 42.

    Amir Khalid

    @Too Many Jimpersons (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.):
    In the list mistermix cites, semicolons are too heavy a stop; they would break up the flow of the sentence even more than an Oxford comma. Semicolons should be used to separate elements in a list only when you have lists within lists, or when when there is at least one element in the list with an internal comma.
    e.g.
    Alien spaceships are now hovering over Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia; Paris; and Fresno, Bakersfield, and San Diego, California.

    Whether to use the Oxford comma or not shouldn’t be an issue of national pride. I’m neither British nor American myself. I consider it good practice to always use the Oxford comma; it helps avoid unintentional (and potentially libelous) double meanings like those cited above.

  43. 43.

    ed drone

    @Steeplejack:

    But written as “Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector,” it seems clear enough that three different entities are meant.

    Only if you see it opposed to the first version. Coming to it cold, I could see reading it to mean that Nelson Mandala was an 800-year-old demigod dildo collector. When in doubt, use the comma. I think there are fewer misunderstandings with than without the damned things.

    Ed

  44. 44.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    @benjoya: That’s one of those bad things you were taught in school. The comma doesn’t necessarily mean pause. One of the things I read about was a teacher who used to make her students pause after every comma and period. Talk about ruining any type of text.

  45. 45.

    David in NY

    @joes527:

    Once someone told me that inside every old person was a young person wondering what the hell happened.

    Thanks. Never heard it put quite so succinctly.

  46. 46.

    Amir Khalid

    @Steeplejack:
    Actually , no.

    “Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector,”

    could still be read as saying that Nelson Mandela is both an 800-year-old demigod and a collector of dildos.
    ETA: ed drone posted it first.

  49. 49.

    FlipYrWhig

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Who is the primary target for communication during election season? Voters. During legislative seasons? Mostly Blue Dogs.

    Agreed. Now, you can well say that there’s no reason _not_ to bullypulpitize while legislating too — and indeed Obama did roadshows about HCR, immigration, and more.

    The whole “Bully Pulpit” argument is starting to devour its own tail, but at least when I’ve wanted to argue about it, it’s in a narrowly tailored way: I take exception to the idea that Obama got suboptimal legislation passed _because_ he didn’t use the Bully Pulpit properly.

  51. 51.

    Sentient Puddle

    @Too Many Jimpersons (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.):

    When I’m writing and I have a list like the examples above, I tend to use semicolons instead;

    But that’s just plainly wrong in any form of English. You use semicolons in lists only when the list items have their own commas in them for whatever reason. Otherwise, there’s no point because the most you’re going to accomplish is to get people to ask why you’re writing like that.

  52. 52.

    James

    Talking about Nelson Mandela the same day Obama promises to condemn Palestinians into never-ending aparthied.

    Unintentional comedy, the best comedy.

  53. 53.

    eemom

    Use the damn comma. Sheesh.

    Too Many Jimpersons (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)

    you were saying….?

  56. 56.

    Linda Featheringill

    I actually like the optional comma [Oxford comma is it?] and have frequently found it an aid in making my words clear. I haven’t seen an occasion where the extra comma was confusing and have seen several situations where it helped.

    Long live the Oxford comma!

    [And single spaces after periods. :-)]

  57. 57.

    scav

    Personal bottom line. I think I really really want to meet Nelson Mandela now. Denmark sounds a good place to do it, I think the pastry is better there than in Oxford. I could be convinced otherwise.

  58. 58.

    Paul in KY

    @THE: I’ve given it a bit more thought & the laser pointer light is much harder to catch (at least when I’m at the controls). That may ramp up the cats, as they are wired up to chase & they aren’t catching it, whereas the toy in the video is easy to catch.

  59. 59.

    Paul in KY

    @cleek: I’ve heard 800 year old demigods taste the best. At least that is what ‘Food & Wine’ taught me (in between the ads).

  65. 65.

    scav

    @Amir Khalid: I will admit to assuming the subject would come up naturally, especially if we carefully chose some suggestively shaped cream-filled pastries.

    (ETA: Really should have said the topic would naturally arise, shouldn’t I?)

  67. 67.

    gene108

    Seen this on the internets and think it is appropriate here.

    Comma’s save lives:

    Let’s eat Grandma!

    Let’s eat, Grandma!

  71. 71.

    Poopyman

    @Judas Escargot:

    Take all you want, I’ll just make some more…

    I’d appreciate it if you stole Uncle Clarence Thomas’s periods and used them all up.

    @WeeBey:

    The Oxford Comma sucks donkey taint.

    Hmmm. Could be improved:

    The Oxford Comma sucks, donkey taint.

    Or maybe

    The Oxford Comma sucks donkey, taint.

    But I’m still in the pro-comma camp.

  76. 76.

    ed drone

    So what would be your description/meaning/import of the “Obama comma?”

    Not that there is such a term, but if there were, what would it mean?

    Ed

  78. 78.

    Sentient Puddle

    @Menzies: That’s actually kind of odd because back in his day, there was a more compelling reason for double-spacing. It has to do more with typesetting than grammar though, so I couldn’t explain exactly what it was. I just know that today, computers handle that stuff automatically.

    In any case, the double-spacers have already lost even if they don’t know it. HTML strips out the extra space.

  79. 79.

    cleek

    @Yutsano:
    damn right!

    and, apropos of very little, every time i hear the word “elitist”, it reminds me of the punchline to my favorite Get Your War On strip:

    If “elitist” just means “not the dumbest motherfucker in the room,” I’ll be an elitist!

    i have the t-shirt, but rarely wear it. i just like knowing it’s in my drawer, somewhere.

  81. 81.

    cleek

    @ed drone:
    the Obama comma is a comma that calmly does the job a comma is supposed to do, but that everyone wishes was an exclamation point because exclamation points are awesome and exciting, even though it would be against the rules and nonsensical to have an exclamation point in that position.

  83. 83.

    ed drone

    @scav:
    Aha! I knew there was someone else here! Wasn’t sure, though — about all I hear are echos of my own footsteps, and a soft, chilly-sounding wind in the rafters and window-panes. I felt like Robinson Crusoe on Thursdays.

    Glad to have company.

    Ed

  85. 85.

    jaleh

    A government health statistics survey released Wednesday finds nearly 1 million more adults ages 19-25 gained insurance in the first three months of this year. Separately, a Gallup survey also out Wednesday reports that the share of adults 18-25 without coverage dropped from 28 percent last fall to 24.2 percent by this summer.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/survey-finds-significant-drop-in-uninsured-young-adults-obamas-health-overhaul-credited/2011/09/21/gIQAk4aDkK_story.html

  89. 89.

    Hawes

    So, Denmark has by far the touchy-est, feely-est police state I’ve ever seen.

    This is why Teatards hate Scandinavia: the police state/nanny state just wants to give you hugs and helmets.

    Wolverines? I’ll see your wolverine and raise you a honey badger.

  90. 90.

    WereBear

    I’ve never had a problem with commas and I find it amazing that anyone does; if the word needs a bit of space around it, you give it a “fence” and the thought of Nelson Mandela, demigod and dildo collector, is the reason why.

  91. 91.

    FlipYrWhig

    @cleek: WIN. And then we could fight viciously about whether the comma in a sentence like “Hooray, another incrementally positive change” was an O’comma or not.

  93. 93.

    Neddie Jingo

    What I dislike rather intensely is a kneejerk application of “rules” to every instance. How about using a serial comma to avoid ambiguities like the Nelson Mandela/demigod/dildo collector example, but eschewing it when it doesn’t add clarity?

    Of course, that would mean having to actually think critically about what you’re writing — being humble enough to put yourself in your readers’ shoes and read as they read and not as how you intend — and that might be too much for some people.

    I don’t think the original example is all that ambiguous. If I’d really wanted to libel the poor man, I’d have employed an em-dash: “…encounters with Nelson Mandela — an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector.” You can’t misread that.

  95. 95.

    DFH no.6

    @Menzies:

    50+ comments (as I write this) and no one’s asked: Who gives a fuck about an Oxford comma?

    Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Maybe because most of my fellow Boomers here (and most Gen X-ers, even) have stopped listening to whatever’s contemporary in “rock” music (which is too bad — there’s a lot of great new “rock” music out there today; more than ever, in fact, IMAO).

    Vampire Weekend – pretty good young indie band (not the best, but pretty good). Fun to listen to their recorded stuff, but they’re much better live (like Muse). That includes “Oxford Comma”.

    Don’t get the lyrics to that song at all, though. Not one bit.

    Anyway, there is no good reason not to use the Oxford comma when writing, and it often helps clarify an otherwise ambiguous listing (as the Nelson Mandela and God and Ayn Rand examples demonstrate). Perfectly-grammatical English has enough issues with ambiguity as it is.

    Oxford comma forever!

  100. 100.

    cleek

    @DFH no.6:
    it has a neat video, too.

    one hellofa tracking shot.

    Don’t get the lyrics to that song at all, though. Not one bit.

    seems to be about a girl who wants to appear very sophisticated and worldly and so she brags about all she’s done and seen, even to the point of needless exaggeration.

  101. 101.

    JR

    There are few, if any, sentences where the Oxford comma is essential for clarity that couldn’t be made even more clear simply by re-ordering the objects.

    Go from:

    …highlights of his global tour include encounters with Nelson Mandela, an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector.

    to:

    highlights of his global tour include encounters with an 800-year-old demigod, Nelson Mandela and a dildo collector.

    and the problem is solved without resorting to wasted pixels.

    Oxford commas are, on the whole, about as useful as the superfluous “u” in the British spelling of words ending in -or.

  103. 103.

    harlana

    @cleek: o.0

    sooo, use of bully pulpit is, in fact, not evil/stupid or incredibly destructive to the Dem party OR the President, nor has it ever been such; it MAY, in fact, prove helpful in certain circumstances!

    thx for clearing that up!

  104. 104.

    cleek

    @harlana:

    sooo, use of bully pulpit is, in fact, not evil/stupid or incredibly destructive to the Dem party OR the President, nor has it ever been such;

    correct.
    was someone telling you otherwise?

    it MAY, in fact, prove helpful in certain circumstances!

    also correct!
    “certain” is a very important word here.

  107. 107.

    Amir Khalid

    @WeeBey:
    I don’t know if that really applies when you’re writing down a list. There’s really only one way to do that in prose: one sets down the elements of the list one after the other, separated by a comma, with an “and” separating the penultimate and final elements of the list.

    I suppose one could avoid ambiguity in the Mandela example by naming Mandela last, like this

    an 800-year-old demigod, a dildo collector and Nelson Mandela

    but the order in a list is often significant in some fashion; one doesn’t always have this option. Not having the Oxford comma risks letting the reader mistake the last two elements of the list for a relative clause containing attributes of Nelson Mandela; having it is a simple and elegant fix. I don’t think it violates Strunk and White’s advice against over-punctuating one’s prose.

  108. 108.

    WeeBey

    @gogol’s wife: In what way?

    The only sentences actually needing the Oxford comma are… Sentences people dream up to demonstrate a need for the Oxford comma.

    If you have a problem with meaning, almost all the time you’ve written a poor sentence, and the comma won’t save you.

  109. 109.

    cleek

    @harlana:
    i can see how overuse could be harmful, or how it could lead to unrealistic expectations, or make him look delusional if he’s asking for absurd things, etc.. but i think what he’s been doing is what he should be doing: going around the country talking directly to the people about what he’d like to do, if Congress would let him. it’s not going to move any House GOP votes, but it does let people know where he stands.

  110. 110.

    FlipYrWhig

    @harlana:

    sooo, use of bully pulpit is, in fact, not evil/stupid or incredibly destructive to the Dem party OR the President, nor has it ever been such; it MAY, in fact, prove helpful in certain circumstances!

    It can be destructive, sort of, in a boy-who-cried-wolf way: if you’re always speechifying about what needs to be done but what needs to be done is never done, you start to look like a windbag.

    But IMHO the argument has been between (1) people who have said that Obama could have gotten, e.g., better HCR or a better debt deal by using the bully pulpit; and (2) people who have said that the bully pulpit would not have yielded better legislation because even if it did stir public opinion it wouldn’t have flipped any votes from No to Yes.

  111. 111.

    WeeBey

    @Amir Khalid:

    .. highlights of his global tour included meeting a dildo collector, an 800-year-old demigod and Nelson Mandela.

    Or, for slightly different emphasis:

    …highlights of his global tour included meeting Nelson Mandela as well as an 800-year-old demigod and a dildo collector.

  112. 112.

    gogol's wife

    @WeeBey:

    I don’t think those sentences are superior to the original one with a comma. You can’t (and shouldn’t) write in such a way as to obviate the need for all punctuation. Strunk and White are not the be-all and end-all of good writing. One can be a good writer who uses a lot of unnecessary words. It all depends on how you do it. Style accommodates a multitude of modes, not just the Hemingway-esque.

  113. 113.

    WeeBey

    @gogol’s wife:

    One can be a good writer who uses a lot of unnecessary words.

    Wrong, unless we’re just abandoning the idea of words meaning things altogether.

    Seemingly “unnecessary” words used for effect, properly, thereby become necessary.

    But so long as the idea is to communicate information, or shared experience, or emotion, or anything else, the fewest necessary remains ideal.

  114. 114.

    eemom

    Ahem. This is getting ugly, ladies and gentlemen.

    By all means, Comma-Haters, eschew the Oxford comma if you want to. Nobody’s FORCING you to use it. I mean, I do think it’s kind of weird, to OSTRACIZE a simple piece of punctuation that is only trying to HELP your ass, but whatever.

    When you venture to insinuate that the use of a comma is ipso facto evidence of poor writing skills, however — them’s fighting words.

    AND total bullshit. Also too.

  115. 115.

    kideni

    As an editor of mostly academic books and journals, I add serial commas in my sleep. It amuses me that it’s so often called the Oxford comma, when in fact it’s used much more often in the U.S. than in Britain.

    Også. Danmark er så deiligt.

  116. 116.

    DFH no.6

    @WeeBey:

    If you need an Oxford comma for clarity, you composed a poor sentence. Rewrite.

    But here’s the deal: sentences are written and published all the time (particularly in American newspapers and magazines) with the listing of three items as the examples given (Nelson Mandela, God and Ayn Rand) where the meaning is ambiguous (at least technically) and unintentionally humorous without the Oxford comma.

    They’re not re-written (as you proscribe) to be unambiguous, they’re simply left hanging and looking (and reading) silly.

    So sure, re-order the words (as you say) or use the Oxford comma. Either way works equally well.

  117. 117.

    eemom

    @gogol’s wife:

    Strunk and White are not the be-all and end-all of good writing.

    fuckin A right they’re not.

    If they were such AWESOME writers, do you think they’d be spending their time writing stupid rules about writing?

  119. 119.

    WeeBey

    @eemom:

    Not what I said. What I said was, nearly all of the time, the confusion comes from a poor sentence, not from lack of a serial comma. The rest are sentences people make up to defend the serial comma.

    Much like the word “that”. It can simply be crossed out in nearly 85 percent of common uses. The other 15 percent require it to make grammatical sense, and of those, 14.99 percent are really shitty sentences.

  120. 120.

    Amir Khalid

    @WeeBey:

    But so long as the idea is to communicate information, or shared experience, or emotion, or anything else, the fewest necessary remains ideal.

    Take it from an old pro: brevity and punch are indeed virtues in prose, but they aren’t the only virtues. Good prose has a rhythm and a swing and a pace to it. These qualities can add intelligibility and force, and the writer’s own individual stamp, to an argument or a narrative. Needless words are something to be avoided, true; but a telegraph-like parsimony with words isn’t always the road to the best possible prose either.

  122. 122.

    Sentient Puddle

    @eemom:

    When you venture to insinuate that the use of a comma is ipso facto evidence of poor writing skills, however—them’s fighting words.

    I’m going to have to reserve my rights on this one. I’ve seen too many people drop commas in the middle of clauses for no discernible reason other than I guess they think it looks right for some crazy reason. That kind of stuff is most assuredly poor writing.

  123. 123.

    Menzies

    @Sentient Puddle:

    That’s exactly why I thought it was odd, since my grandfather doesn’t own a computer, and in fact actively refuses to get one. Yet single-space he does.

    @Amir Khalid:

    The comma is my second favorite punctuation mark (dash would be first), so any chance to use it is appreciated. Simply couldn’t help but make the reference.

    @DFH no.6:

    Someone got it! Heck, it’s not like I know them well. I started listening to them because I was dating a girl from Cape Cod.

  126. 126.

    Amir Khalid

    @Wee Bey:
    You seem quite dogmatic that the best prose is the briefest needed to convey meaning; and that one should go out of one’s way, if necessary, to avoid the serial/Oxford comma. On both points, we differ.

  127. 127.

    Wee Bey

    @Amir Khalid:

    As to the first point, I am certain the best prose is the briefest needed to convey the meaning the author intends, and have never heard anything approaching a compelling argument to the contrary.

    To the second, yes, we differ.

  128. 128.

    Amir Khalid

    @Wee Bey:

    I am certain the best prose is the briefest needed to convey the meaning the author intends, and have never heard anything approaching a compelling argument to the contrary.

    Not even my comment #119? I haz a sad.

  133. 133.

    Wee Bey

    @Amir Khalid: Sure, and if the rhythm is necessary, if the alliteration is necessary, then go with FSM.

    You seem to think I am arguing that less is better by definition. But the original point regarded the Oxford comma, which is almost always unnecessary and should be omitted.

  134. 134.

    eemom

    @Sentient Puddle:

    but you, are referring to, simple excess unauthorized comma usage, that is, quite simply, incorrect.

    The Oxford comma — which, I note, some on this thread have referred to as a “serial comma,” thereby insidiously slandering it as the equivalent of a psychotic murderer — is also known as an OPTIONAL comma. AFAIK it is officially recognized as a CORRECT usage, even if it is not to the taste of certain linguistic minimalists.

  135. 135.

    Sentient Puddle

    @Wee Bey: To be clear, I support the Oxford comma. Part of that is because my job dictates it, but I also don’t really believe there’s a tradeoff between clarity and…punctuation economy, I guess you’d call it. I’m more interested in trimming unnecessary words and sentences than punctuation.

  136. 136.

    Amir Khalid

    You seem to hold that brevity is the first and foremost virtue in writing, that the other qualities I mentioned may or may not be necessary to any given piece of writing. While I’d agree that getting to the point is always a good thing, what I’m trying to say is that those other qualities are vital to really good prose. I wouldn’t agree that there is ever an “if” to them being necessary. Without them, the prose sits on the page like a dead thing; reading becomes a chore; the reader, unmoved by what you’ve said, forgets it as soon as he looks away; and the very purpose of writing is defeated. As a journalist I’ve read, and written, too much prose that was like this, Ive seen the life stomped out of too much good prose by shitty story and copy editing, and I feel much better now that my rant is over.

  137. 137.

    eemom

    @Amir Khalid:

    agree to both #131 and #132.

    It’s interesting, because I generally tend to be of the “less is more” view myself when it comes to verbiage….but I think our good Mr. Wee is being a bit too rigid here.

    And I am an avid semicolon user! I think its “image” problem is due to the fact that many people are unsure how to use it correctly.

  139. 139.

    Sentient Puddle

    @eemom: Yes, and I guess I was a little unclear about that. I’ve just seen way too many people misuse commas like that and in so many other ways that you don’t need a style guide to rule on. That’s the stuff that eats at me.

  140. 140.

    Wee Bey

    @Amir Khalid: Bad writing is bad writing. Hemingway doesn’t sit dead on the page and Joyce isn’t good because he used lots of words.

    I empathize, however, with your rant. And it wasn’t poorly written.

    Oh, and Faulkner’s awful.

  141. 141.

    eemom

    @Wee Bey:

    Joyce isn’t good BECAUSE he used lots of words, but the fact that he is good disproves your assertion that fewer words are ALWAYS better.

  143. 143.

    stannate

    @Catsy: Related to their Felix-like OCD is that when summer makes its brief appearance in Denmark, the country pretty much moves to its beaches. Since just about every beach in Denmark can be a nude beach, let’s just say that you’ll be seeing a lot of your fellow Danes during the summertime.

    P.S. Any translations for the message at the end of the PSA?

  145. 145.

    scav

    Wee Bey, whether you mean to or not, you are coming across a bit like Emperor Joseph II faced with The Marriage of Figaro. There may be exactly as many notes and in exactly the positions the composer wants them. (& that may require the tactical use of the scary scary dreaded comma — horrors!) Or, are all the mere words just there as infrastructure for the rigid and abstract glory of punctuation?

  146. 146.

    PanurgeATL

    What is “necessity”, anyway? Necessity doesn’t just exist on its own–it exists in the context of an understood goal. Besides, would we really want all writing to be like Hemingway’s? (Considering the state of pop culture since the rise of punk, it would seem most “creative” people do–more’s the pity.)

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