Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy
Reader Interactions
156Comments
Comments are closed.
Come for the politics, stay for the snark.
Usually wrong but never in doubt
Since when do we limit our critiques to things we could do better ourselves?
We’ve had enough carrots to last a lifetime. break out the sticks.
Thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege.
It’s time for the GOP to dust off that post-2012 autopsy, completely ignore it, and light the party on fire again.
Accused of treason; bitches about the ratings. I am in awe.
… riddled with inexplicable and elementary errors of law and fact
Wow, I can’t imagine what it was like to comment in morse code.
Do not shrug your shoulders and accept the normalization of untruths.
Give the craziest people you know everything they want and hope they don’t ask for more? Great plan.
Come on, media. you have one job. start doing it.
Let’s not be the monsters we hate.
Second rate reporter says what?
T R E 4 5 O N
Battle won, war still ongoing.
Never entrust democracy to any process that requires republicans to act in good faith.
Black Jesus loves a paper trail.
The cruelty is the point; the law be damned.
“Can i answer the question? No you can not!”
They are lying in pursuit of an agenda.
Let me eat cake. The rest of you could stand to lose some weight, frankly.
Happy indictment week to all who celebrate!
It’s the corruption, stupid.
Today’s GOP: why go just far enough when too far is right there?
singfoom
Well, obviously if the protesters were wearing suits and ties, speaking softly and politely and had a list of demands in a nice shiny slick powerpoint presentation, the cops wouldn’t have to stomp their asses.
/snark, for those who are snark impaired
Villago Delenda Est
Thieves who wear suits and ties are obviously less criminal than thieves who wear blue jeans.
This is pretty much how it is.
Jenny
Why are you calling the protesters “bad apples”?
joes527
And the add before the video convinced me to stop worrying and love fracking!
j low
Have you seen the little piggies crawling in the dirt?
Stefan
Isn’t it about time for Sully to paint his blog green or vermilion or whatever the color for the New York protests is? Or does he only care about state brutality when the protestors are far, far away from him?
Ruckus
And some of the commentators on this blog have chastised me for not liking and not trusting cops. That they are doing a hard and dangerous job and that we should not lump all cops into the same group of thugs. And maybe that’s true. But that’s not the evidence that I see. If there are good cops why are they not speaking out? Because they will lose their job? Because they on some level agree with the tactics? None of the above? I don’t know the answer, but these are the cops we have, not the cops we would like to have.
Samara Morgan
@Stefan: Sully is a retard about Islam. Green is the color of Islam– the color of Hamas and Hizb and the drapes on Qaddafis show coffins.
if Anonymous has a color its black.
anonops organized the occupywallstreet protests on twitter and facebook…..just like the Arab Spring.
:)
Genine
@Jenny:
I don’t think he’s calling the protesters bad apples. I think he’s referring to the cops in a snarky manner.
And I hope this protest grows and gets bigger and more attention. This may be effective.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Ruckus:
I know I wasn’t one because I agree with you, I don’t trust cops. I treat them with the respect they deserve/demand but only because I want to keep my interaction with them to a minimum. I’ve seen and experienced too much police bullshit to care much about them any more.
I avoid them like the plague. If one is following me I quickly find a way to lose them without drawing attention.
Sorry police supporters, that’s the way it is for me.
Nevgu
Race to the top. Yet another Bush/Republican policy success story.
http://youtu.be/XHjKBjM1ngw
geg6
Not gonna look. Not gonna read. Not gonna click. I’ve seen this act before and, whatever the outrage may be (and I have no doubt it’s outrageous), it will play put as it always does. Meanwhile, I’m checking out to go door to door with a young man getting those horrible middle and working class voters to write letters, sign petitions, and explain to them how they’re getting screwed, a task I’ve been working at for months as a volunteer for America Works. I know it’s not as effective as giant puppets, showing my tits, or drum circles against the Man, but I’m just an old fart who don’t know nothin’ ’bout nothin’. So I do the best I can, with my college student partner, and get those letters and signatures from those loser, conventional working class people who look up to those loser unions and such, which are obviously as coopted by as any Wall Streeter. I’m ashamed of myself.
MikeJ
@Genine:
Effective at what?
soonergrunt
@Stefan:
Well, he doesn’t have to worry about ever meeting one of the smelly masses if they’re in Iran, so yes.
RossInDetroit
The ads on my screen: groceries, home security. Targeted web ads are pathetic now but when they get this process tweaked it’s going to be scary.
PeakVT
@Ruckus: Lots of people have a hard time speaking out against a group that they identify with (except Dems on teevee). On top of that, the “us vs. them” attitude is deeply embedded in law enforcement culture. So if there is a public statement by any police officer or group/union condemning the Bologna incident, it would surprise me, even though what Bologna did is clearly indefensible.
pete
@geg6: Actually, by not looking you have missed the interesting part, which is that Lawrence O’Donnell, the centrist Republican TV guy, made one of the most eloquent criticisms of police behavior that I have seen in ages, very specifically calling out the abuse as standard operating procedure, and also saying that this is no surprise to the black community. Good for him. His statement really could make a (small) difference. What have I done today that measures up?
Short Bus Bully
I am rooting for these protestors like I root for my beloved Seahawks every sunday. I know they are going to try really hard and the crowd will cheer a lot but the end result will inevitably be a shit show.
Omnes Omnibus
@pete: O’Donnell isn’t a centrist Republican.
General Stuck
Sometimes, like with this incident, I am reminded just how easily this country could fall into some kind of quasi fascist hellhole, under the right economic and political conditions.
All of it done under the flag of protect and serve. It is why I am about fanatical for keeping any and all GOP persons out of any position of political power and office, no matter how fucked up the democrat might be. Yes, there are good cops, but way too many bad ones being protected under some kind of blue wall of silence for all cops. And like bad doctors being protected by their own, these motherfuckers hold the power of life and death over us, individually, and collectively as a healthy nation.
It is also why, imo, the current right of center population is all for as much economic deprivation and chaos as possible. It is fertile ground to marshal their resources for more control over the country as a whole, that they have convinced themselves is slipping from their grasp. And brutal cops can hear the right wing dog whistles to tighten the screws a little more, it seems with each passing day.
And the wingnut politicos keep up their end, draining the wealth from the masses for the few, to prime the pump for more protest and police riots to amp up the chaos, and the over reaction toward the battlefield for the desired corporate fascist state.
And yes, it is dystopian pRon day in the Stuck Bunker.
Ruckus
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
I do the same thing. Haven’t had as much as a traffic ticket in almost 23 years and I still avoid them like the plague. Because like all aggressive animals they are unpredictable. Unpredictable, heavily armed, willing to use excessive force for no legitimate reason, aggressive animals. And like a lot of those animals the more they get used to being aggressive the more normal it seems to them.
Now don’t get me wrong, there have always been bad cops, aggressive cops, cops for whom the law is a one way street. But now it’s more organized and they have better armament and communications. And we have created an atmosphere of everyone is a criminal until proven otherwise in this country, with the wars on drugs and terror.
JPL
@RossInDetroit: I have social media ads and a.m.azon. Since I don’t want anymore a.m.zon ads I’m inserting dots. When I was redoing my kitchen the ads were really high end. ..oohlala
@geg6: I watched and promptly poured myself a drink.
Seanly
@RossInDetroit:
Hmm, my ads are all pr0n…
Back to the subject, I developed a respect for what the cops & firefighters in NYC had to go through when I lived in the metro area (pre-911 even). Now, not so much. Just a bunch of thugs & goons like the rest of them.
lethargytartare
this stuff just makes me sad… been humming this tune all day long:
Mama! Mama!
Someone said they made some noise
The cops have shot some girls & boys
You’ll sit home & drink all night
They looked too weird . . . it served them right
Mama! Mama!
Someone said they made some noise
The cops have shot some girls & boys
You’ll sit home & drink all night
They looked too weird . . . it served them right
Ever take a minute just to show a real emotion
In between the moisture cream & velvet facial lotion?
Ever tell your kids you’re glad that they can think?
Ever say you loved ’em? Ever let ’em watch you drink?
Ever wonder why your daughter looked so sad?
It’s such a drag to have to love a plastic Mom & Dad
Mama! Mama!
Your child was killed in the park today
Shot by the cops as she quietly lay
By the side of the creeps she knew . . .
They killed her too.
JPL
Recently I read In The Garden of Beasts and although there is a lot to criticize about the book, because it appeared the author got tired of writing, it did paint a picture about how Hitler came to fame and how ordinary people turned a blind eye. Fear and poverty is a great motivator and it can happen here and personally I fear if a extremist is elected it will. When Bush was president he was rounding up immigrants while not penalizing the meat packers from hiring them and I ranted but did nothing. His policies did not deport many folks but it was the toughness that mattered.
Short Bus Bully
Taking a shit on ALL cops for the actions of a few douchey individuals is as stupid as any of “those people” type of comments that we routinely bash around here.
You folks should know better. Pull your shit together.
KJbrooklyn
What you don’t seem to understand short bus belly is that his is POLICY
JPL
@Short Bus Bully: Point taken.
soonergrunt
@Short Bus Bully:
Good luck with that one. As I was told once when I made a similar point, “this is Balloon-Juice.”
Corner Stone
“short bus belly”. Heh, that seems about right.
Short Bus Bully
@soonergrunt:
And I don’t give a shit. I’m not defending the actions of the assholish, I am calling the people out who make grand, sweeping, and stupid generalizations that we all know are poorly done.
Kola Noscopy
@Short Bus Bully:
Oh fuck you, bossy pants. If it’s just a few douchey individuals, where are all the decent cops, the HUGE majority of them we are told to believe, who should be calling out and ostracizing these pricks? Instead, they generally fall in line and protect and cover.
I’ve only seen this same shit for the last 50 years…most cops are assholes, if only because they enable the really evil ones among them, even in the little Kansas town where I grew up. Frustrated authoritarian losers.
Betsy
@Short Bus Bully:
It’s not about all cops vs. a few bad apples, though. It’s about the institutional systems that encourage and enable those bad apples, as the man in the video pointed out. If, in the face of clear evidence, the superiors turn a blind eye to unprovoked aggravated assault, what are we supposed to think?
Moreover, those cops who try to fight corruption are often ostracized and harassed.
jeff
@Short Bus Bully:
It would be nice for law to be observed. That officer assaulted people. He should have to answer for that before a judge or jury. Best wishes to all police, but police, like administrative assistants or farmers or day traders, should be held accountable for criminal behavior.
I still really don’t know what the protest is about, other than a vague “this economy sucks and you guys are rich” sort of way, but excusing Brownshirt behavior is “silly” as you put it.
Silver
@Short Bus Bully:
You know what? Cops never police their own. If a police officer had arrested Tony Baloney for pepper spraying a bunch of people for no reason, I’d agree with you.
They didn’t, they don’t, and they won’t.
singfoom
@Short Bus Bully: I can dig that. Everyone is an individual, regardless of what groups they belong to… Your point is very well taken, not all police are thugs.
But that begs a question for me at least. If you’re a cop and another cop does something, say like, I dunno, pepper spraying kettled women for no reason, should you say something to said thug cop? Or just stand there and watch them in pain?
And if you don’t say anything, even mildly upbraid them, are you not consenting to that behavior?
Silver
@Kola Noscopy:
Ask Kelly Thomas. He just happened to run into EVERY bad cop in Fullerton, California at once, apparently.
What are the odds of that happening?
lethargytartare
@JPL:
ftfy
General Stuck
I don’t think it matters much in the final analysis of what happened in NYC, and happens every day across the country, some, or a few bad cops doing criminal assaults on citizens.
The problem is that though there are a lot of cops that don’t do the bad shit, they are all part of a system that doesn’t police itself, and unless there is a civil rights claim, the local cops are the final arbiter on police misconduct for criminality. And there are rarely any consequences for police brutality, even when filmed, and that taints ALL cops who maintain that blue wall of silence.
And since the bad cops don’t wear special hats, or any other markings to beware, no one knows what they are up against when confronted by a police officer. Because the bad cops are allowed to keep being bad cops, and are indistinguishable from the good ones.
Short Bus Bully
Oh, I see. Now we just roundly condemn ALL cops as authoritarian losers, assholish animals, and bigoted savages? Way to go guys!
Dumbasses.
Obviously don’t have any cop friends. I do and I STILL avoid cops like the plague. Doesn’t mean that they should be ALL called savages. Fuck me.
MikeJ
@singfoom: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
ChrisNYC
Hey! I thought cops were valiant public servants! I guess those are just the Wisconsin cops. (Though I did see NYPD people who went out to the anti-Walker protests. Must have been moles. Bastards. Thugs.)
JPL
@Short Bus Bully: You attracted the trolls. What happened in NYC should be condemned and that was the point of the article. You ended up saying something and that caused the trolls to come out.
singfoom
@jeff:
I’m sorry, this is driving me nuts. It’s really pretty clear what they’re protesting about. This is the key statement from the protesters themselves below…
Our political system has been infected with tons of money, the FIRE sector being the highest contributor of all. Then, the fuckers blow up the economy (the world economy almost) and then nothing is done to reign in the abuses.
Our votes mean very little when compared to corporate campaign contributions.
And on top of that, our politicians are trying to balance the budget on the back of the most vulnerable.
ChrisNYC
@singfoom: That is so not clear. “Injustices” — what about Troy Davis? Are they protesting that? What do they want? What’s the ask? The Arab protests had an ask — removal of the regime. If the ask is “an end to blatant injustices” by unknown people against unknown people, then, yeah, nobody knows what this is about.
Short Bus Bully
@JPL:
FUCK the trolls.
singfoom
@Short Bus Bully: Did you just make a sweeping generalization about all of the commenters here that isn’t true?
Some people upthread have made the claim that all police are savages. Not all of us have. Please try to make the distinction…
Corner Stone
@singfoom:
They’ve been told by the MSM that no one knows why these people are protesting. Watch how often it’s repeated.
Takes about 30 seconds online to figure it out. Literally, the time it takes to make the comment that “you don’t know what they’re about” you could find out what they’re about.
Corner Stone
@ChrisNYC:
Well the bid is eleventy billion.
slag
Good on Larry O!
And Susan Sarandon has a point:
I hope that mace spraying cop feels the distinction of having unintentionally helped to bring this protest to the next level. And I hope the protestors proceed to capitalize on that.
Never let an injustice go to waste.
singfoom
@ChrisNYC: So, yes, the protest is attended, like all other street protests, by every person with their pet issues. Troy Davis? I have no idea.
Is there an ask? To me the ask seems to be justice meted out to those caused the financial collapse and to ask politicians to stop disenfranchising the rest of us who don’t have millions to contribute to campaigns.
Not crystal clear, I’ll give you, but it’s not a mystery as far as I see it.
MikeJ
@singfoom:
Is that supposed to actually mean something?
Short Bus Bully
@singfoom:
How’s that “clever” thing working out for you?
singfoom
@MikeJ: I dunno, if I think about it for like 10 seconds, I can think of a meaning.
Like, “Stop cutting taxes on the wealthy and then cutting social services because tax revenues are down.”
It’s a broad statement, meant to appeal to a large number of interconnected issues.
The whole 99% vs. 1% thing? It’s a protest against the crazy inequality of the uber wealthy vs the rest of us, and how they have control of our political system, regardless of the desires of the voting populace…
Just my take…
Corner Stone
“But what do they waaannnnttttt??”
singfoom
@Short Bus Bully: I’m sorry, is what I wrote wrong? Because I thought you were yelling at people for making sweeping generalizations and then you wrote this:
I’m not trying to be clever, or a jerk. Just trying to point out to you that not all people on this thread supported that idea. Did you look up earlier where I agreed with you that it was stupid to lump all cops together as thugs?
Arclite
@JPL:
The ads work by looking at your amazon cookies. It doesn’t matter if you type the name in a comment. Clear your cookies and come back, and see if the ads have changed. If they have not, then they are insidiously tracking your IP address.
0_o
ChrisNYC
@singfoom: I get the anger. I’m sick of anger, entirely, but I get it. But, even your explication, which, if that’s what they wanted, they could have said it, but they didn’t — so you’re reaching. “Justice meted out?” People in jail? Banks nationalized? Assets seized? And about “disenfranchisement”? Well, I think you see it as about campaign finance reform. Puts an entirely different spin on it, yes? A massive protest against the FEC!!!!! Are they hippies or policy wonks? I’m thinking that that goal would leave a lot of the people there scratching their heads. In other words, fuzzy.
Kola Noscopy
@JPL:
hahaha…is this really how you perceive this blog?
pete
@Omnes Omnibus: My mistake, I was confusing him with Scarborough, since I so rarely watch either. Still good to see.
Valenciennes
@geg6: You’re making an incredible number of assumptions about the people taking part in Occupy Wall Street and their thoughts and feelings about you. It’s possible to work together instead of isolating yourself from people who share similar aims and motivations.
SiubhanDuinne
Chicken-and-egg question for the BJtariat: I’m really curious about this. Is there a certain, shall we say, authoritarian personality type who naturally gravitates towards law enforcement as a career (and because of that predilection does well on the aptitude tests etc.) — OR does police-type training turn otherwise mild-mannered types into bullying assholes?
Take as read the usual provisos and disclaimers about blanket generalizations.
B W Smith
@Short Bus Bully: That has become the nature of things around these parts. My dad was a cop for thirty years. He was a good cop. My brother is a cop and he is a good cop. He was a K-9 officer. He was called in to work a drug raid, saw some things that were overboard. Reported it to his superiors, nothing was done. Unless you count him being removed from the K-9 unit and moved back to the beat with no explanation. He is retiring with 20 years at the end of the year. That’s early retirement at a reduced pension, but he just can’t take it anymore and this is not even in a large city.
A lot of police will step over the blue line and they have hell to pay for doing it. My dad retired more than 20 years ago, I hardly recognize the force anymore.
My youngest son and his friends are heading out tomorrow for NY to join in for a few days. When I see this footage it makes me very nervous. He tends to be a little mouthy.
handsmile
@geg6: (#12)
You are to be warmly congratulated for your dedicated volunteer efforts with America Works. The intimacy and potential for conflict of this kind of activism requires uncommon fortitude and determination.
The overall tone of your post, however, seems to be a reaction to the lambasting you received on several previous threads related to the “Occupy Wall Street” protest for a host of ill-informed and intemperate comments.
As a an active participant and close reader of those particular threads, I can recall not a single example in which “middle and working class voters” were demeaned, much less described, as “horrible” or efforts to “write letters, sign petitions, and explain to them how they’re getting screwed” was denigrated as unworthy or ineffectual. Also, where do I find sentiments castigating “loser, conventional working class people who look up to those loser unions”? I would suggest, instead, that you have harvested quite a few bales of straw.
You deserve great credit for your committed and difficult advocacy work; the self-pity, however, deserves to be put aside.
Short Bus Bully (#26, #31):
Twice last week I visited the “Occupy Wall Street” protest in my secret disguise as a middle-aged white guy, well-dressed, well-groomed, and well-schooled in how to behave around NYC cops. On both occasions I was photographed by non-uniformed security personnel and harassed several times by the police, e.g. instructed I was loitering while standing on the sidewalk; my shoulder bag was stripped from me and its contents examined. Compliance was never optional.
In this one man’s opinion, the strikingly disproportionate number of police and security personnel deployed widely around the protest area exhibited a consistent and palpable hostility towards the protesters and those passersby who interacted sympathetically with them.
(and h/t to me I guess for first posting the O’Donnell “Rewrite” segment on the “You Know What’s Next, Don’t You” thread this afternoon.)
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Silver: Two of the cops there have been charged with murder. Which doesn’t make Kelly Thomas any less dead.
Kola Noscopy
@B W Smith:
Good for him. I will keep him in my thoughts.
Jay B.
Half of you people are serfs. I literally can’t believe A) You get all whiny about people picking on what amounts to absolute authority and B) Don’t understand why people would be picking on mean old Wall St.
Literally bootlicking losers. You wouldn’t know reality if it bit you in the ass and you deserve to be robbed by these criminals and maced by these fascists. Enjoy your fucking Third World hellhole assholes.
ETA: Since this is the self-discovery part, some of you clueless serfs need: My dad was a cop, in a small college town, and his department was half smacked up and completely fucked up. They did shit that’s totally fucking shameful. The “good ones” shut up and the bad ones got promoted.
lethargytartare
@SiubhanDuinne:
not to be flip, but I think the answer is yes.
SiubhanDuinne
@pete:
Somehow that just makes me laugh, conflating Lawrence O with Morning Blow.
Mino
While Congress was grandstanding on steroid use in athletes, they very carefully neglected to investigate its use among the police force. Google that, folks.
Genine
@MikeJ:
Getting people to organize and really push back. Take to the streets if necessary.
I don’t know if it’ll be effective in doing that, but I hope it will.
Joebius Publius
Time to protest police brutality.
Short Bus Bully
@singfoom:
Fooled me.
I think this falls in the “No shit, Sherlock” category.
@B W Smith:
I’m really sorry to hear all that (no snark). I thank your dad and your brother for serving and I’ll be sending good vibes to your son. I hope he’s careful.
MikeJ
@singfoom: Lovely. Point me to one piece of legislation that should be passed. Show me where it is in the legislative process. Tell me who the sponsor is.
That or start throwing molotov cocktails. Legislation or violence are your two options.
Short Bus Bully
@handsmile:
At the risk of sounding redundant, I would ask you to actually read what I wrote. In no way am I offering support for any of the bullshit that is happening right now with the NYPD. What I AM pissed about is the people around here who should fucking know better making sweeping, blanket statements demonizing ALL cops.
That’s bullshit.
singfoom
@Short Bus Bully: Thanks for the ad hominem, I’ll add it to my collection.
singfoom
@MikeJ: I have a ton of legislation that I’d like to see passed, but it won’t ever happen in the current political environment.
I don’t think that’s the choice here, and I think these people are trying to raise awareness to the corruption between our financial sector and our political system.
joes527
@Short Bus Bully: Every time the police force responds to an atrocity with a resounding Fuck You, the world is separated into we and they, with all police being they.
Tony Baloney is one bad apple that could be dealt with, except for the fact that he institutional response to this incident was to tell the public that we should be THANKFUL for our beatings.
Sure there are good cops. They are just as screwed by this “we protect our own” mentality as the rest of us. (though with less pepper spray)
Jay B.
Who gives a fuck? I abhor police brutality — but not the brutality dished out by all cops!
Why? Let the “good ones” take over. Are they above criticism? If they speak as one, then one they are.
jeff
@singfoom:
Sorry, but that is really vague. It sounds about how I put it previously.
B W Smith
@Short Bus Bully: Thank you, both my dad and my brother joined the force literally to protect and serve. My guess would be that most police join for that reason. Completely anecdotal, but it appears to me in more than my brother’s case, that sometimes aggressive behavior gets rewarded. It is unfortunate and doesn’t make those who wish to protect and serve comfortable. There are many police officers that I know personally that are great guys. It just seems that the environment does not always reward their behavior. I don’t like painting with a broad brush either.
slag
@handsmile:
Exactly. Or as the old hippies say: Let’s give peace a chance.
Though, yes, at least one specific, actionable “ask” would be appropriate sometime soon. (Though, personally, I’d like to see a full list of concrete demands.) I hope they can agree on one and get it out there.
jeff
I wrote:
To which you responded:
ChrisNYC
Just want to make sure I have this right — The reason that people like cops and firemen don’t vote for the left is because they are too dumb to understand their own economic interests. Couldn’t be that they know lefties despise them. Kthxbai.
Shawn in ShowMe
@ChrisNYC:
Why does it have to be either/or?
singfoom
@jeff: I’m sorry I couldn’t make it clearer for you.
For me, the key is the statement about disenfranchisement. What does your vote mean when an wealthy individual or corporation can basically buy Congresscritters?
With that much money concentrated in the hands of a few with their hands on the political levers, how does a vote even mean anything?
At this point, having tried to explain in multiple threads, I’ll go with a TLDR version.
TLDR version: “Class warfare? Ok, you’ve got it. We’re going to sit here and non-violently protest the class war you’ve been winning for 30 years.”
Valenciennes
@ChrisNYC: Yes.
singfoom
@ChrisNYC: I wouldn’t use a < 100 comment thread on BJ where some have shown that they despise cops as a bellwether that all lefties despise both cops and firemen.
Shawn in ShowMe
@singfoom:
With American corporations sitting on $2 trillion in cash and billions being spent on lobbyists, I think we’re way past the “raising awareness” stage. The government is already bought and paid for. Our situation is a lot closer to France in 1776 than the US in 1976. History shows us that what comes next isn’t going to be pretty.
Auldblackjack
While we’re on the topic of dealing with the police….
Seems most commenting here are old enough to have learned these lessons through the school of hard knocks, but if you have or know teens and young adults pass this video from the ACLU along. Could save some heartache.
BrianM
@singfoom:
I am impressed by your persistence in pointing out what others seem intent on logic-chopping to death. Thank you.
ChrisNYC
@Shawn in ShowMe: Ok, so fine. It can both. When I canvass, I’ll knock knock and say, “Just so you know, I think you are both dumb and a thug. Now, please commit to vote for Elizabeth Warren.” Sounds like a plan.
cynn
Facebook Update: OMG Im civil disobedient
ChrisNYC
@singfoom: Here’s the thing, this reminds me of the whole TSA flip out. Where internet lefties (lefties!) came out full bore against ordinary people working (getting by) in airports and branded them pedophiles. Way to go. Here, a protest against elites ends up being about cops. Geez.
James
@singfoom:
The question is: How do you combat a leaderless, amorphic power structure? There is no man behind the curtain pulling levers that make the capitalist hegemony function. Governments are still formed and do still function but I think you’re entirely correct that it’s mostly in the subservience of capital, not the constituent.
I do find it interesting that groups like those involved in The Occupation or Anonymous have co-opted the same structure to oppose it. While it doesn’t have the pretty face spewing the easily digestible soundbyte it’s far harder to discredit as it can’t be linked to a singular persons foibles of miscues. There’s really no one to point and say “That fucker right there, he sucks”.
It’s an interesting parallel.
soonergrunt
@ChrisNYC: Oh, no. They’d never be put off by the people who think they’re nothing more than dumb brutes.
@singfoom: Show me a thread anywhere on any left where the dominant theme was something along the lines of “there are a few guys who shouldn’t be cops but most of them are honest dedicated public servants.”
James
@ChrisNYC:
I see it as more of a rallying cry than the message itself. It’s visceral and easy to understand which while painful as fuck is an opening to bring the message itself to people who’d previously written them off as ‘trustifarian scum’.
Shawn in ShowMe
@ChrisNYC:
LOL!
That’s why it can’t be the DFH asking the rank-and-file cop to vote for Elizabeth Warren. Even if the DFH is coming in good faith, it isn’t going to be enough to overcome decades of conditioning. It’s going to take a personal relationship with a DFH outside the realm of politics to make that happen. I suggest a Frisbee league.
brendancalling
@singfoom:
stop, you’re gonna make booman tribune cry.
Ruckus
@B W Smith:
And I don’t like painting with a broad brush either. But where are the good cops? When do they step in? When do they protect and serve? Or are they just putting in their time till retirement because that’s the best they can do? And I don’t mean that in an individual way, I think the system is fucked up, I think the good cops for the most part are getting pushed out and being replaced with people who will tow the aggression line, who will fight nothing with overwhelming force. Not to put words in his mouth but @B W Smith: seems to be saying the same things as I am, that the good cops, whatever that means to you, are losing.
And BTW I know several cops, and consider them good people. But I know them mostly off duty. My major complaint is that the good cops seem to be doing absolutely nothing about the bad cops. That makes them part of the problem, which at this time seems to have no solution. And in my definition that makes them bad cops. They aren’t doing their job. They may not be doing as bad a job as the assholes and they may not be able to do anything positive about the system but they can walk away, they don’t have to be cops. They chose to do so. It’s a job, not a reward for being an armed bully.
singfoom
@ChrisNYC: I don’t think this protest has ended up being about cops. The idea is bigger than that. Obviously, when people are protesting on the street, some police are going to use more force than necessary.
I think that’s awful, but I don’t think all cops are bad. Nor do I think that the protestors have the “cop pig” mentatlity as a whole.
Nor is the violence the takeaway. I agree that they’re lacking in terms of a nice coherent message for easy dissemination. I think it’s because it’s a complex motivation and problem.
ETA: This DFH says it more artfully than I can http://current.com/shows/countdown/videos/kelly-heresy-on-police-violence-at-occupy-wall-street-protests
pete
@SiubhanDuinne: There’s a reason folks call it the idiot box, no?
singfoom
@James: I think the only answer is to your question is all over and at every level. And I agree, there is no one actor, but there are actors, and there are behaviors. You can try to fight that.
My biggest bang for the buck ideas I keep going back to are:
1)Make elections a holiday, the entire day, like many holidays already.
2)Public campaign financing for everything. While 1 doesn’t seem hard to do at all, it’s not a new idea. And 2 is just not going to happen in this political climate and this Supreme Court.
singfoom
@soonergrunt:
grunt, I can’t. There’s definitely the anti-authoritarian thing on the left about “fuck the police”. I won’t deny that.
I will say that I think most cops are good people that deal with tons of shit that nobody else does on a daily basis, and that’s got to suck.
The police are part of the 99% as well.
Lyrebird
@lethargytartare: Nice. I might use that in class someday!
@B W Smith: Thank you for sharing that (and sorry my phrasing is trite). For me, I try to show respect to anyone who’s doing a job I could not stand to do, e.g. cop, corrections officer, dental surgeon, and to lobby for more oversight whenever possible. Prison & sentencing reform too… may it come speedily in our day.
(“could not stand to do [and clearly contributes to society at least some of the time]” if you prefer. I don’t see many police officers doing the stuff I hope they’re doing, but I don’t wanna be there when that stuff is called for!)
B W Smith
@Ruckus: I think you are reading my words correctly. Maybe I didn’t explain myself very well in one of my comments. When my dad joined the force in the mid-60’s, it was his ideal job. By the time he left in the mid-90’s, he hated the job. He actually blamed the changes on the drug war and the incentives of the federal government as warriors on that front. I do think there are many good cops, they just don’t always have the incentive to stay that way. As in my brother’s case, speaking up only harms them. He took the risk, spoke up, and the powers that be have made his life miserable. He has other skills, so he can afford to leave, which he is doing. Some guys need the job and like anybody that hates their job, they suck it up and stay. Most of them don’t take part in the bad behavior, but they’ve learned the hard way not to see it. I can’t say it’s admirable, but not everyone’s a hero when there’s a family to feed.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Short Bus Bully:
I glad you think being stopped and harassed for having long hair (or whatever they pull others over for other than traffic violations) is just fine. You haven’t seen what I’ve seen, you haven’t met the cops I’ve had to deal with. Yes, all cops aren’t bad but the problem is that when I get pulled over for driving with a pony tail I have no idea if I’m getting a good cop or a bad cop.
You can hug and love them all you want. I respect them and their power but at the same time I have seen too many cops abuse that power because they decide you are ‘one of those people’. You do what works for you and I’ll do what works for me.
Just don’t tell me how I should feel about something that you have never had to experience (at least to the degree I have).
Ruckus
@B W Smith:
Most of them don’t take part in the bad behavior, but they’ve learned the hard way not to see it. I can’t say it’s admirable, but not everyone’s a hero when there’s a family to feed.
This is my point as well but better stated and without the baggage that I have. I too looked to be a cop in the late 60’s. I’m so glad that I rode along with my buddy the deputy so that I could figure out the kind of person I didn’t want to risk turning into.
Ruckus
@B W Smith:
There is another point that you allude to here.
It’s a job.
It shouldn’t be a way of life, an us against them. But way too often it is just that. The people for whom it is just a job, go home play with the kids, etc are probably the ones who suffer the most. I’ll bet a lot of them want to do the right thing, there’s just no realistic way to do that and stay on the job. Look in the video above. Not all the cops are beating on people, there is a report from one of the victims of the spraying that one of the blue uniform cops said he couldn’t fucking believe the guy sprayed the women. But what can he do about it? It sounds like his gut reaction is that it was just wrong. Will anyone be able to identify him and get him to say that in court? I’ll bet he hopes they don’t because his life will become a living hell until he leaves if he does. That’s the problem. It’s not a few rotten apples, it’s a whole lot of rotten apples. And until the country decides that local cops don’t need and shouldn’t be the blue line of morality and the front lines of the great terrorism war anymore, it will never go away.
Can't Be Bothered
@Short Bus Bully:
oh the irony.
@jeff:
LOL. The keyboard commentariat of the blogs never tires of punching hippies for their “stupid protests” if they’re not as successful as Ghandi’s fucking salt march. This protest is about “fuck you you pig fucking, shameless assholes for robbing and fucking over the world!” It’s about rage. I don’t expect any “piece of legislation” to come from it, but I sure am glad that some people are taking the time to go there and, in a nutshell, tell those psychopathic assholes to go fuck themselves. And you know what, it does raise awareness. Why so many on here have to hem and haw and ridicule and take a general dump on the whole thing simply b/c there won’t be a “go fuck yourself” resolution passed by Congress is beyond me. If I had the money to go, I’d be there in a heartbeat. Little old non-hippie me.
catdevotee
@Auldblackjack: That’s a great video which needs to be seen by everyone. I wish I had known more about my legal rights when I was young and adventurous – I was just lucky that I was never arrested. I sent the link to my son in college, although we long ago had “the talk” about how to respond when he has a traffic stop. It does not reflect well on our justice system that even as a privileged white middle-class kid, he needed to be told the facts of life about false arrest/assault/murder by the police.
catdevotee
OK, I can’t imagine why my previous comment is in moderation. I thanked Auldblackjack for the video about legal rights. No naughty words, I promise.
Valenciennes
The only people who are talking about the cops as anything but potential allies are the people standing on the sidelines scoffing at the demonstrators.
I’m disappointed and disgusted by how little interest anyone seems to have in what is shaping up as an overwhelmingly open, inclusive, downright thoughtful and inspiring movement. Engaging in spats over perceived minor differences is so much more important.
Short Bus Bully
@singfoom:
I did not commit ad hominem. I don’t think you know the true definition of that term.
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
And yet you feel perfectly comfortable presupposing what I have and have not experienced. Fuck you, hypocrite.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Short Bus Bully:
How about this jackoff…
If you experienced what I have and have the attitude you do on cops then you are a fucking idiot.
I’m sorry for giving you the benefit of the doubt.
burnspbesq
Worth noting that two Fullerton cops have been charged with second-degree murder, involuntary manslaughter, and use of excessive force in the death of Kelly Thomas.
I’ve never been a big fan of Tony Rackauckas, the OC DA, and I don’t think this 17-minute review of the evidence in a press conference was necessary or appropriate. But there seems to be a chance that justice will be at least served, if not done.
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/thomas-319173-death-police.html?videos
Short Bus Bully
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
I have not experienced what you have and you have not experienced what I have. I never made any assumption about what you have gone through but you felt obliged to TELL ME how I should feel.
I’ll make up my own mind about that, thanks.
RareSanity
@soonergrunt:
soonergrunt I will say this, my day job consists of me interacting, almost daily, with various public safety and Federal agencies. And it is true, the great majority of all of them are “honest public servants”, there is no doubt.
However, the frustration you see “on the left”, is unique to the “the left”. There have never been protests, or law enforcement clashes, over cutting taxes. There have never been public conflicts with people that want to end social safety nets, or people that want to end affirmative action.
The reason is that, “the Right” doesn’t have to do public protests is, they just start writing checks, and using their ownership of the media to get their message out. The “left” on the other hand, is (mostly) made up of people that can’t just write checks, or use media, en masse. When the “bad apples” behave in this unacceptable manner, they are effectively trying to silence what small voice “the left” has. It’s doubly frustrating because these same “bad apples” are supposed to be protecting “the left’s” right to peacefully assemble and demonstrate.
So no, you won’t hear the same kind of anger at outposts of the right, because they do not use means to achieve political change that puts them in contact with the “bad apples” like the left does.
And it is still a point of fact, that when the 99% of “good apples”, turn a blind eye to the “bad apples” they will get lumped in with them. If you tell me that if a cop intervenes on behalf of a citizen, in these obvious examples of injustice, and is then ostracized, terminated, or worse, the target of retaliation…then I respectfully say to you, either there are more “bad apples” then people really think. Or, the few “bad apples” are amazingly powerful. Either way, it’s bad.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Short Bus Bully: “I’ll make up my own mind about that, thanks.”
As I already have for myself. That was easy, wasn’t it?
James
@RareSanity:
There’s another parallel that’s come up with regards to the Occupation. If you look at the videos, violence is being instigated by the command staff, better known as whiteshirts (meet the new shirt, same as the old shirt).
There are stories of rank and file openly questioning orders and decisions being made, cutting flex-cuffs and engaging in dialogue with the movement. I’m not sure anything will come of it, since it is a paramilitary organization and orders are orders but it does speak to some sort of schism in the ranks.
It’s that very same class divide, under the microscope. It also ties in nicely with the outing of Tony Baloney, which was incredibly specific as opposed to ad-hoc violence the blue shirts saw being dished out against pretty much anything that moved. The more light we shine on the truly vile fucks, using all the tools available, the easier it will be for those better officers to hold their ground.
Cmm
For the record, as someone who works in law enforcement, I found the guy’s actions horrible and unjustifiable. I hope there are serious consequences for him but given his rank and time in service, the best to hope for is a hasty retirement. An I have no sympathy for him about his “outing”.
Ruckus
@James:
Any sources for these stories of rank and file disobedience?
Ruckus
@Cmm:
I’m of two minds on his outing.
First I’d like to be better than him. I’d like to see the cops take care of this on their own. It does sometimes happen, but it seems all too rare. LAPD threw the Rodney King officers under the bus, testifying where they crossed the line, but the jury didn’t buy it. As burnsy notes at 116 two of the Fullerton officers have been charged with major crimes. So there is sometimes some accountability.
To those who protest our disgust and mistrust of cops, could you please explain why we are supposed to, well not have those feelings? How are we to trust any cops, given what we see? As Odie Hugh Manatee stated how do you know which ones have a hard on for whatever it is that they don’t like us doing/being, even if it is legal? Them liking us is not in their job description. Neither is beating, clubbing, kicking, macing, breaking cameras or killing without due cause. But that happens all too often.
James
Yep.
http://www.bostonreview.net/BR36.5/jeanne_mansfield_occupy_wall_street.php
This one has made the rounds today, but I do recall seeing a few other first hand accounts as well. I’ll try to dig them up.
Valenciennes
I think the conflation of “police brutality is rampant and cops cannot be trusted as a collective unit” with “police officers are evil, baby-eating monsters” is unnecessary, but I can understand how heightened tensions can cause that to happen. Civility is awesome and it would be nice if that were our default reaction to disagreement.
Ruckus
@Ruckus:
Had to walk the dog.
Second.
On the other hand, how does the system get better if the cops are policing themselves? For the most part that doesn’t seem to be happening so maybe the public has to protect itself by outing the out of control cops. I don’t think their families should be involved. The cop in question here is supposed to be afraid of what? Peaceful demonstrations?
James
@Ruckus:
I look at it like this, it’s a tool. One of many in the box. It serves a specific purpose, for a certain task. It’s the marked deck. I’m not going to lie, it’s as cheap as fuck. However, this isn’t a fair fight and sometimes you do have to get a lil’ dirty. Only suckers demand Queensbury when getting punched in the balls while the ref is most definitely on the take.
It also leaves them guessing. Was network security broken? Was it socially-engineered? Did someone inside the department willingly turn it over because he or she thought Tony Baloney was a rat-fucker too? Any wedge you can drive between those who command and the rank and file, who make up that 99% like the rest of us, can only be a good thing.
It has tremendous shock value, in it’s blinding light and it’s immediacy. It works when it’s a single shot across the bow but it needs to be tempered.
That’s why I can’t personally consider this one incident a ‘good’ or ‘bad’ thing, only important.
It’s a statement, honest and clear in it’s intentions, that we as a society do have a say as to when they cross the line. The lawyers, the judges, the politicians and the police investigating the police are not entitled to all the oxygen in the room. We can take our demands right to their doorstep, without putting ourselves at the mercy of their guns and batons, then tossed into the gaping maw of the for-profit prison industry. We don’t need to martyr ourselves to prove a point… cuz I really don’t see the value in taking an asswhuppin’ if you can avoid it entirely.
It’s a new tool for a new kind of all encompassing civil action. I do hope those that use it do so wisely, with reservation and forethought. While the police are ever more conditioned to fear us, to be at war with us, I sincerely hope we do not fall into that same trap.
Emma
@Short Bus Bully: Nice way of derailing the discussion of police misconduct, concern troll. Do they pay you for this sort of thing or are you one of those holier-than-thou people who really really loved exact language and nuance, at all times?
Emma
And to all of those who are defending the police as “99% good people doing their job” (which I tend to agree with, by the way), it seems to me that the old line about all it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing applies here.
They are part of the problem because the good cops is the only thing that stands between citizens and the bad cops, but if the good cops don’t act, what do we have left? A battle against the system. And when you fight “the system” everyone has to be lumped in, or you’ll never win.
harlana
I hear these demonstrations are popping up all over the country. Seeing this and a picture of a young person holding a sign that says: Debt = Slavery, I’m crying. I realize now, somebody gets it. They get it.
THANK GOD
FINALLY
Godspeed, young people
Because I thought I was going to leave this earth without hope, without any hope at all.
harlana
and, yes, unfortunately, police brutality (protecting their masters) does come with the territory – i’m glad it’s on tape! camera phones, et al – you just can’t get away with this kind of shit anymore (of course, that’s why the guy with the camera got slammed, but there’ll always be somebody else holding a camera taping you slamming that guy, with his camera, into the pavement, and on and on)
El Cid
@RareSanity:
In other words, when you’re on the side of the powerful and backing the interests of the rich and the feudal minded, yeah, uncouth protests by the weak are not necessary.
And once again we come back to the political phraseology which has people who push against ridiculously concentrated financial power engaging in officially-sanctioned thievery as “the left”.
Fine, but from time to time it’s probably important to recognize that such a perspective is simply logical and just, whether or not it happens to be located within ‘the left’ in our current political spectrum.
harlana
and, oh lord, i’m not beating up or hating on cops here – my niece is dating a patrolman – i don’t know enough about the NY city police to comment – it does appear to be a few bad apples – i have no idea if this is a systemic problem, i’m just commenting on a blog, i haven’t done my research on NYC cops, so let me just put that forward
El Cid
By the way, it’s not like suspicion of police use of power is exclusive to some privileged librul elite / disaffected white youth enclave.
Really, it’s not.
Talk to a variety of working and poor people and make sure you include people of color and some of the more troubled poor white neighborhoods.
Sure, it’s mixed with the same expected opinions about the important role of police and respect for individual officers; but that doesn’t in anyway prevent people from noting how often they’ve been pointlessly fucked with and fucked over.
And I’m one of those people always going out of his way to see the police officer’s perspective when I have to deal with one, because you can take a few steps to relax the cop and get a better outcome. The first steps, of course, are the biggest, involving white skin (works for black cops too, yes it does, as anyone in the black community will tell you) and a reassuring middle class sounding accent. But the other stuff (when pulled over, hands on the wheel where they can see them from far behind, driver window open, documents all ready) also help greatly.
However, it’s also crucial for everyone to learn every step possible to take to refuse to give police the slightest legitimate cause to incriminate you, no matter what their kind invitations to ‘just help them out’ or ‘be honest’ stir in your heart.
You can think cops are awesome, but if you trip up and give one any open excuse to get you charged, you likely will be.
WereBear
I am actually thinking the amorphous nature of the protests works for them, and us.
What are they so upset about? Wall Street? That’s going to lead to TONS of speculation… none of it good for Wall Street.
What do they want? Change? Well, everyone has their favorite version. Get to work on it.
And if you must have it boiled down for you, DEBT = SLAVERY is about the best it can get.
During the Bush Years, I thought all I had to do to get screwed over was Be Sick In America; but the Bushies had another trick up their sleeve. I couldn’t afford the life saving meds, so I put them on the credit card. The insurance didn’t want to pay for them. We went into debt; and got pushed into a crushing mountain of it when they started moving around our due dates, using them as an excuse to jack up the rates, then doing it again, and again, and again. Each time I had to spent 45 minutes on the phone “straightening it out” and yet it crept upward.
We went into non-profit debt consolidation and it was the absolute best thing we could have done. It’s the only legal means to lower interest rates.
And yes, I tell everyone I know. I’m supposed to be shamed by the fact that I had to do this? Why?
harlana
@WereBear: I see no shame in it at all. I believe everyone who has a story like this should share it because there are more people out there in similar circumstances than we realize, and they are ashamed and they need our support and our information. Kudos!
(this is why i babble on about mental illness at times, it’s not because i want people to feel sorry for me, i just hope it might help a fellow human being who is suffering out there somewhere feel a little less alone)
Odie Hugh Manatee
@WereBear: “And yes, I tell everyone I know. I’m supposed to be shamed by the fact that I had to do this? Why?”
Because the banksters want you to be shamed into silence so others won’t hear how you were able to get out from under their thumb.
It cuts in to their profits and shaming is cheap.
burnspbesq
The “debt = slavery” image is powerful, but it’s also wrong and stupid. Debt is, let’s not forget, 100 percent self-inflicted.
ericblair
@burnspbesq:
I agree it’s not the core issue, but it’s not all self-inflicted. Housing costs, medical costs, and education have gone through the roof, making it almost impossible for people to avoid taking on dangerous debt levels.
The real problem is concentration of wealth. The economy is being increasingly financialized, and the middlemen are ending up with all the money, and through gooper-led tax policy it’s trickling up and never trickling back down. The rich then play fucking games with the money and screw up the rest of the system for everyone else. Instead of DEBT=SLAVERY, maybe GIVE US OUR MONEY BACK would be a lot better sign.
B W Smith
@Ruckus: Sorry for the late reply, my computer decided it needed rest last night. I agree with you, it is the good cop who wants to do his job and get home to his wife and kids that suffers the most within the force. I have done no research on this so I’m not speaking with any authority, just observation. While there have always been good cops and bad cops because there are good people and bad people, the aggressiveness has become institutionalized and rewarded. I really think my dad was on to something with the changes coinciding with the war on drugs. The federal government offered funds as an incentive for departments to militarize and go after the drug dealers. They also added the carrot of funds from seizures. This caused departments and city councils to seek those funds to free up local monies. So instead of teaching cops about protecting the community, they became warriors in the drug war. During the 90’s the results were showing bad outcomes. Studies were showing distrust and no cooperation within communities, so community policing was born. The concept was showing some signs of success but then 9/11 came and folks were scared. Since 9/11, we have cops using the same techniques on DFHs in a protest as they do in the war on drugs or terrorism. The Ray Kelly interview on 60 Minutes was eye opening in that it showed how militarized police forces have been. Why on earth do local police in any city need with military weapons like tanks and artillery? It is this show of force that makes those that have lots feel safe and those that have little feel terrorized. Sorry for rambling, not enough coffee yet this morning, but I think you get where I’m going.
harlana
@burnspbesq: erhm, trying being unemployed through no fault of your own for a couple of years – that is, unless you don’t mind living in a cardboard box – i was one of the fortunate ones, I had family help – but not everybody is quite so fortunate
James
@WereBear:
First off, props on getting healthier and getting your financial situation in order. Those are heavy obstacles to overcome today and I’m glad you found a solution that works for you.
Secondly, you’re absolutely right about the amorphic, leaderless structure being a boon. It’s not so much a protest or activism as it is about holding the line. The line those fuckers who snatch our houses, annihilate our pension funds and try rip apart what remains of the social safety net with austerity measures do not get to cross. The message is simple, if you want in then get stuck in. We’ll be here.
It’s retaking public space to hold a people’s forum where we can discuss our problems, that we all share. Creating an ecology and self-sustaining environment where new ideas can be given light. All in the open for the world to see, not segregated by party affiliation or which blogs you favor. Where we can develop the tactics to see those changes we want to make in the world. It’s not about having the answers today or tomorrow or even next week… no one has those answers. Not the talking heads, not the pundit class nor the dipshits in power who would make us slaves.
We’ve sacrificed dialogue for the warm glow of corporate media telling us what to think, what to do and how to be ever so properly behaved. We need to stop listening to them and proudly raise our middle finger to their soundbytes, their false narrative of ‘left versus right’ conducted in pantomime screaming fits between two entirely interchangable confidence men. We need to reclaim our ability to honestly communicate, free of the bullshit propaganda and invectives they try to feed us on a daily basis. These occupations are the ecosystem where that seed of truth and honesty can grow.
If we give them a safe and easy to digest message, they will go full-bore trying to corrupt it. At best right now they swing in the dark with blanket assertations… the trustifarian scum, the anarchists, the malcontents and the rudderless… but when people speak with us, with you, they understand they are us. All we have to do is hold the line.
SnarkyShark
The sign on the door of the police cruiser says “to protect and serve.”
Time for an update.
“To force compliance.”
Its time for the cops to figure out which side they are on.
We know which side Tony Balony is on.
Samara Morgan
@harlana: well they had better, because college mortgages are the new venue for the paper flipping pirates.
SnarkyShark
@burnspbesq:
Yeah, like when you get cancer while having a nice $2000.00 detuctible.
You are clueless, programed, and a tool.
Samara Morgan
@SiubhanDuinne: its called Right Wing Authority Tendency. Its part of red/blue genetics.
SnarkyShark
Finally people are starting to get it. No one owns Occupy Wall street so they cant target leadership. Its open source protest VS The microsoft bullet point model some in here are so keen for.
Geg6- thanks for doing important work. I’m sorry you feel so put on. I will say you probably payed for the sins of others in previous threads who drive-by mocked the protesters and then ran like little bitches.
At least you hung in there and faught. Maybe, just maybe we both learned something.
Silver
@burnspbesq:
And what about the other cops that stood there and watched or just mildly participated in the beating?
If those were gang members instead of police members, they’d all be sitting in jail on felony murder charges, and likely looking at the death penalty. There also wouldn’t have been two or three weeks of whitewashing involved.
numbskull
@burnspbesq: Dumbest thing I’ve read all day. You’ve really been brainwashed if you think that.
WaterGirl
@burnspbesq:
Let’s not forget what happens if you get sick (read WereBear’s comment above) or lose your job.
jaywillie
@jeff: You don’t know what it’s about because they don’t know what it’s about, or at least they can’t clearly articulate what it is about beyond vague, general rhetoric. They think it’s not a problem and they don’t need to “have their shit together,” but the question I keep seeing over and over and over and over, all across the Internet, is, “What is the purpose?” People, who are otherwise sympathetic, aren’t buying it because they don’t see it leading to anything greater.
They don’t want to hear that–fine. It doesn’t matter at this point because whatever this is supposed to be about, there’s one thing it’s definitely not about at this point: Wall Street. It’s about how people look and police brutality. I remember when riot cops indiscriminately teargassed college students in Pittsburgh during the G-20 summit and how that changed–oh, that’s right, everyone forgot about it.
If this is the purpose:
…then you’ve already lost because the Powers That Be have no qualms about sending the cops out to bust open the heads of counter-culture types. Scream and rage all you want–They. Do. Not. Give. A. Fuck. If they’re willing to profit off of economic calamity, why would they hesitate here, especially faced with “opposition” that has such a catch-all, directionless appearance to it? It’s a pretty safe bet that the actions of police simply won’t sway public sympathy towards the protestors, because that’s what the recent past has taught us.
It’s a tough lesson for the American far left, but not a surprising one given the sanctimonious, holier-than-thou-ism of that ideological group. Honestly–only the far left in this country could fuck up a protest against Wall Street, an institution equaled in public acrimony only by Congress. It’s nothing new–they’ve been getting rolled for nearly 40 years in this country, mostly because they think they’re above playing politics and don’t have to worry about doing it intelligently and effectively.
And, quite frankly, the vast majority of the American center and left has literally no faith in people who get off on the DFH persecution complex to accomplish anything. There’s a reason more successful movement organizations (labor, teachers, nurses, public employees) aren’t joining in. Another tough pill to swallow is that people hate the hipster crowd, and that’s the public face of these protests. Don’t like that? Put a little more forethought into it next time.
The ideological left has almost zero political clout in this country. It’s dysfunctional, self-centered, and lost in its on dogmatism. If it plays politics as a zero sum game, it will lose every single time. If it takes a persistent shit on its political allies, they can’t be surprised no one shows to back them up. It only has influence by being part of a center-left coalition. If it tries to remake itself as a Tea Party for the left, it will only lose more credibility (people hate the Tea Party in part because they are ideologically myopic).
This protest is in the process of getting schooled, but they’re not the first to have their heads busted and faces maced by the cops in this country. Next time, they’d do well to learn something from the progressive political movements between 1900-1965 who took the beatings–and worse–and forced the hand of the Powers That Be, who knew what they wanted and were willing to fight and suffer the indignities heaped on them by oppressive forces until they got it. Those folks new what they were doing, and that’s what made them a threat to the good ol’ boys and robber barons.
SnarkyShark
@jaywillie:
A nice long screed boiled down to ” do nothing”
Thanks, but until you get some skin in the game, you’re just another brick in the wall.
You think what your seeing is all of it? The M$M is showing just what they know will kick off your programing.
Thanks for being a tool
James
@jaywillie:
I feel you’re clinging to what might very well be outdated institutions and methods of communication. Where you see lack of a coherent message, we see one stated plainly with boots on the ground. In New York, Barcelona, London, Athens, Tel Aviv and the Gaza Strip. This is beyond the borders of any one nation state and you know it. Where you question the lack of labor and union involvement, we honestly question what those structures have to offer. They have nothing to offer these so-called ‘hipsters’. We cannot offer them jobs as ours are fading away or falling under the axe of austerity.
Aside from bodies, what do these groups honestly offer? Communication? These kids are miles ahead when it comes to using the tools we have at our disposal. Very serious people who can say very serious things? They’ve heard it all before and frankly, it’s a bunch of empty fucking promises. Who the fuck needs a union drive when actual unemployment is hovering around 20%? Ain’t no one with the seniority to keep their job is going to give up their job, nor should they. Media savvy know-how on spinning your message? I think that’s one of the very things this nascent movement rejects. The big names are always corporate and entirely statist, which are one of the strongest objections we have. Why even play that game when you can entirely circumvent it? The people and their ideas are welcome, the blocs and the intercine politics cannot be. They only inhibit.
You’re used to the pithy or pathetic one-liner in soundbyte form. ‘Jump you fuckers’ or ‘Keep the government out of my medicare’. Honest dialogue can’t be reduced to that with discussion, consensus and critique being the only path forward. To be completely honest, you don’t have a fucking clue what the answers are to the multitude of problems we all face. It’s cool though, neither do any of us. All of these so-called experts running their mouths across corporate media don’t have them either, they’re just paid to maintain the fiction that someone in the midst of all this shit actually has a clue. We could very well be in the end days of corporate capitalism as a self-sustaining system with it’s political toadies mewling in aquiesence.
You harken back to ‘better days’ of ‘nobler heroes’ saying we haven’t learned a thing. Yet this is the very reason we eschew traditional top-down leadership. Making yourself a target will get you fucking murdered. I have zero desire to die so some hedge fund manager can spend another night railing coke off silicone tits. Anyone who demands that sort of sacrifice from others as a purity test is a coward. Those kids in the park, they remember Pittsburg. They remember Denver. Athens. Toronto. Croydon. Barcelona. Hell, some of us remember Seattle where we sent the powers that be runnin’ and the bricks fell like rain. We’ve taken our lumps and picked ourselves up everytime, right back into the fight. School’s been in session for a while now.
The problems are so much more complex than labor rights or segregation. This isn’t about certain robber barons or that political party but the whole bloody system that sustains them. This is global, brother, and the quaint notions of the American exceptionalism need to be shed. It’s nascent to be sure but only the entitled walk in and expect it’ll all be laid out for them. Gotta put in the heavy lifting bro… not playing captain shit-vibes while squawking like an emo teenager.
Corner Stone
@burnspbesq:
I wouldn’t have thought you could possibly get any funnier burnspbesq, but I’ll be damned if you haven’t topped yourself with this one.
Ruckus
@Corner Stone:
No burnsy is right, it is 100% self-inflected. You didn’t have to go into debt to pay the rent, or the medical bills.
You could have just fucking died. Leaving no debt. Well other than the burial costs, coroner costs, EMT costs.
Shit, even dying is not free.
John X.
“The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich and the poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, to steal bread and to not pay back the debt from their medical bills.”