If you think that the real standard for a newspaper is whether they’ll dig hard when a powerful local institution is accused of wrongdoing, then compare the lead stories of the Times and Guardian coverage of the Wall Street protests. Here’s the Times lead:
When members of the loose protest movement known as Occupy Wall Street began a march from the financial district to Union Square on Saturday, the participants seemed relatively harmless, even as they were breaking the law by marching in the street without a permit.
But to the New York Police Department, the protesters represented something else: a visible example of lawlessness akin to that which had resulted in destruction and violence at other anticapitalist demonstrations, like the Group of 20 economic summit meeting in London in 2009 and the World Trade Organization meeting in Seattle in 1999.
After seven paragraphs of preemptively excusing the police for their actions by noting that other protests have been worse, that police were trained to protect us against ruthless and scary terrorists, and, furthermore, a bunch of obviously harmless hippies could instantly transform themselves into lawless marauding hordes, the Times finally lets loose a few facts. Did you know that the police officer who pepper sprayed those women was accused of improper use of force in another protest in 2004? If you read the Guardian, you’d have learned that fact first, because it’s the most interesting one.
The Guardian launched their New York-based US operation less than two weeks ago, but they’re beating the Times on their own turf with this story.
TheMightyTrowel
Sometimes it takes an outsider’s eye. Also, the NYT editors are weasel-faced cowards.
Incidentally both the Times link and the Guardian link go to the Guardian article.
John X.
The Guardian sees a huge opening. American media is completely compromised and its stealth ideology hasn’t held up well in the face of the internet. There’s a massive market for a national, well-funded news operation that does not owe fealty to the Fortune 500.
Same as it ever was, in a lot of ways. The sainted Founders got their news mainly from British papers and journals.
Emma
I gave up on American news about the time of the Gore campaign. What can I say? I was an optimist.
darwinsjoke
The Times link goes to the Guardian story.
John X.
It’s a small thing, but I love that the Guardian will accurately quote people, even if they say “fuck.”
Sanitized news is a form of propaganda. It’s most noticeable in war coverage, but there’s a level of it in all American media.
mistermix
@darwinsjoke:
@TheMightyTrowel:
Fixed, thanks.
gene108
They broke the law because they didn’t get a permit. They should all be in jail.
Also, too harassing job creators will not improve the economy.
/end snark
amk
jon stewart shiving the crazy repub base through their collective ass.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/jon-stewart-talks-tough-to-the-gop-base-your-candidates-arent-the-problem-its-you/
brendancalling
the Times would prefer not to cover the story at all,to be frank. They did this during the run up to the Iraq war too.
i was just emailing with my dad, who considers himself well-informed. He knew NOTHING about what was going on in NYC, because resources he depends on like the Times refused to tell him.
cleek
@gene108:
plus, they’re mere yards from the most hallowed place in America: Ground Zero.
how disrespectful!
Cermet
Yet the NY times wants us to pay to read their (with a very few exceptions) corporate trash reporting. Wall Street only destroys jobs and these low-life and diseased minds ass-wipes haven’t mattered for decades but for some reason, all media outlets treat these parasites like they are anything but the criminal thieves that suck the life blood from the middle class; worse, the weasel times never attacks the wall street whores the way any honest paper should.
The Republic of Stupidity
If it’s big enough to take down a plane, I’m kinda thinkin’ it needs to be called something other than a ‘gun’… more like a frickin’ cannon… just sayin’…
Rick Perry must be DYING of envy… and how could he not?
Hell… I’ve always wanted my own cannon, too…
WereBear
@John X.: I never thought of that… but I love it!
Free hand, market, etcetera!
nancydarling
After a quick scan of the web pages of MSNBC, ABC, CBS, Fox, and Al Jazeera. I found one story about 80 arrests at MSNBC.
This is from AmpedStatus.com by way of an Al Jazeera opinion piece by Danny Schecter.
harlana
“Anthony Bologna, NYPD officer named in pepper-spray incident, is accused of civil rights violations at the time of the 2004 Republican national convention protests”
the irony, it burns
arguingwithsignposts
Shorter: When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
beltane
The Guardian is my new morning paper, the first place I check into every day while drinking my cup of coffee.
The NYT’s extreme deference to power, authority, and wealth is nothing new. A few months ago I watched a documentary about the Triangle Shirtwaist factory fire, and how the workers there had been trying to unionize for years prior to the catastrophe with little to no attention being paid by the MSM. When the young, female garment workers were roughed up by the NYPD back then, the response of the liberal NYT was very much the same as their response to the Occupy Wall Street protest: condescension for the protesters mixed with sympathy for the job-creating factory owners and support for the cops who worked with the factory owners to keep the riff-raff in line.
nancydarling
@brendancalling: I just spoke to a Santa Fe friend last night (she doesn’t have a computer) and she was clueless about what is happening in NYC.
Where is Josh Marshall’s head these days. Nothing at TPM. TruthDig has a story, of course, due to the Hedges connection. Nothing at Krugman’s blog—isn’t this in his back yard?
arguingwithsignposts
You know what’s really missing from that NYT article? Not one fucking quote from someone within the protest. Police, ACLU, city councilperson. But nobody from the other side. So much for he said, she said journalism.
nancydarling
If I didn’t have so much on my plate in the next few days, I would hop on a plane to NYC in a New York minute!
beltane
@nancydarling: TPM strikes me as the NYT for the younger generation. They do good work, as does the NYT on occasion, but they have the same upper-middle class perspective on things that is the curse of the NYT.
John X.
arguingwithsignposts,
That’s a massive and old standing problem with the Times coverage. For all their huge reputation, their staff has always been shy about interviewing people who weren’t government officials, corporate PR agents or their friends and neighbors.
It’s very obvious in their Lifestyle section, where all the quotes and stories are obviously either people already in the Times rolodex for being “official” stories or their friends and neighbors. It’s actually rather hilarious the extent that the Timesmen go to avoid interviewing anyone who isn’t a trendy Manhattanite or from the “right” neighborhoods in Brooklyn.
That was the crux of the Jayson Blair scandal. He did not want to travel the country interviewing strangers, so he sat in his apartment getting high and making shit up. The Times editors couldn’t tell real people from fiction and have an elaborate gatekeeping system to keep random people from contacting editors and reporters, so he got away with it for a long time despite numerous people trying to get through to the Times to complain.
Duckest Fuckingway: Ask not for whom the Duck Fucks. . .
I will write to the NY Times and tell them that unless they improve their coverage, I will stop evading their paywall to read their articles. That’ll fix ’em!
geg6
@cleek:
I am so fucking sick of the Ground Zero fetish in this country. I want to puke every time someone mentions it. Makes me want to turn back into a DFH and run lawless through it, defacing everything in my path. The only thing that stops me is that I knew someone who died there.
As for the NYT, I quit reading them during the run up to W’s Excellent Adventure. And knew I was right to do it when all the Judy Miller shit came out. Lying liars lie so there’s no way to tell if anything they print is the truth. If I refuse to watch FOX News because they do nothing but lie, why would I read the NYT since they told the exact same lies? Since then, it’s been the Guardian all the way for me, with some McClatchy thrown in for a domestic point of view.
singfoom
@arguingwithsignposts: Well, they’re smelly dirty fucking hippie anarcho-communists. And you want a NYT times reporter to get close to that?
Selling papers on hippie punching, you don’t say!
kay
@nancydarling:
It may be a good thing. I’m to the point where I don’t want them framing, defining, limiting and narrating. It never works in my favor.
Maybe it’s best if it just bubbles up, without anyone telling “us” what it is, what it means, or how to think about it.
I was actually relieved when they abandoned coverage of the health care law. Just let the thing speak for itself. I’ll take my chances with reality, as perceived, rather than with being presented with their (negative) narrative, and having to rebut. We’re always on defense.
Mino
Be interesting to see what happens with Huffpo. My guess: it dies or goes full-on infotainment. MSNBC? Maybe goes more left? One can hope.
This is very very good news. Guardian has a brand and the English still have cachet in this country. They can have powerful influence on the public and, perhaps, on our press. Where do you think the best and brightest will be applying?
Amir Khalid
The NYPD has anti-aircraft artillery? Since when, and what the devil for? I’m thinking that if you shoot down, say, a 747 out of the sky over Manhattan, it will very likely hit the ground somewhere in Manhattan.
arguingwithsignposts
@Amir Khalid: Omelets, eggs, 9/11!
gene108
@geg6:
Also, too I think the construction workers building the Freedom Tower would object to you trashing their work place and would intervene before you could do any real damage.
Ground Zero’s no longer a smouldering pile of ruble. Few people, who don’t go to NYC regularly realize this.
Duckest Fuckingway: Ask not for whom the Duck Fucks. . .
Amir Khalid: Sorry, NYPD doesn’t do logical consequences.
SnarkyShark
I love reading this blog because John Cole is a big enough man to admit when he was wrong and open minded enough to understand the truth of things.
He now understands that just getting out there and saying I am not taking this crap anymore is what you have to do. I was involved in a little protest in Crawford Texas and there sure wasn’t any PLAN. But guess what? It turned into something that did have an effect. That period of time proved the high water mark for the Bush/Cheney fascist.
Some of the commentary here are a big part of the problem. To all the twits who insist you have to have an ironclad plan, and that Dirty Hippies protesting just turn everybody off, you are worse than useless. The mushy middle is programed to the point that one can not even try to have a reasonable argument without hitting some trip word or phrase that shuts the conversation down. Tea Party asshole screaming-perfectly acceptable. Dirty hippy doing anything-bad. Your programming is glaringly obvious to everybody BUT you.
There is no shining example of suit wearing protesters who studiously avoid smoking dope or cursing that will resonate with the sheep. What you have to do is put your ass on the line. Then when the NYPD, drunk with power, crosses the line as they WILL do then you have a viral video that causes a gut response. Because any parent will now be saying, hey that could have been my daughter. An it illustrates how the powers that be don’t even give a fuck about pretenses anymore. That’s how you get sheep to get mad. Show em what happens once your through the gate and into the slaughterhouse.
But feel free to discount my post cause I said fuck.
Mark S.
@Amir Khalid:
What if some bank robbers are escaping by plane?
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Amir Khalid: Eh, what’s a few people when you can save a building?
handsmile
I believe this so fervently (and write it here often enough) that perhaps it should be my handle: there is no more indispensable news organization than the Guardian. If you are not reading it daily, consider yourself underinformed.
One sign that the NYT has begun to recognize that the “Occupy Wall Street” protest may indeed be consequential is its assigning Joseph Goldstein, a Metro New York and police reporter, to cover the story, rather than one of its arts and culture reporters (viz., Ginia Bellante). Goldstein has been quite good in his reporting on a current New York police scandal involving the fixing of parking tickets.
Commenter Dee Loralei first flagged this last night on an open thread, but let me enthusiastically second the recommendation: on his program last night, Lawrence O’Donnell ferociously denounced members of the NY police force for their actions during the “Occupy Wall Street” protest march, as well as the culture of impunity that characterizes the consequences of police aggression against citizens across the United States. MUST-SEE TV!, as they say. I suspect the head of MSNBC will be having an uncomfortable conversation this morning with Ray Kelly, NY police chief (and probable successor to Bloomberg as mayor).
nancydarling (#14): Many thanks for posting that excerpt from the AmpedStatus.com/Al-Jazeera article. I had been unaware of Twitter’s despicable corporate censorship.
[On yesterday’s thread, “Today in Occupying Wall Street,” I posted a comment describing my own experiences twice visiting the protest site last week.]
cleek
the reason no media is covering these protests is because DFHs protesting is as common as the leaves turning colors in the fall.
Mino
For anyone interested in donating to keep Wall Street uncomfortable, Ministry of Truth from GOS provides this link :http://nycga.cc/donate/
wilfred
The Guardian is not beating the Times at anything. The Times has an agenda and reports whatever fits it. When its agenda coincides with yours —yeh! When it doesn’t, ox goring.
They’re too busy drumming up war with Pakistan to pay attention to other things.
Mino
@SnarkyShark: Show em what happens once your through the gate and into the slaughterhouse.
Effective turn of phrase there.
cleek
i really like the people wishing violence on the protestors because it will help prove their point.
“let’s you and him fight. and once you get your teeth knocked in, everybody will recognize how right i am!”
SnarkyShark
Thank you Mino.
Linda Featheringill
It looks I’ll have to learn how to navigate on Facebook if I want to interact with the kids occupying/planning to occupy. My middle-aged daughter is good at that sort of thing. I’ll see if I can get some help there.
I went through the registration process and am left with “Now What?”
B W Smith
@SnarkyShark: First of all, this is Balloon Juice, nobody discounts what you say because of the use of the word fuck. Secondly, I totally applaud and sympathize with the protesters and wish the numbers to grow. However, I think you are mistaken when say any parent will think about their own children when they see the macing of DFHs by the police. Probably well over 50% of the parents in this country feel no sympathy whatsoever. In fact, they’re wondering how their parents made such mistakes in raising their kids. They are proud that their kids are the cheerleader and the quarterback or the student council president who will surely pledge the parents’ former sorority or frat and would never look like those people. I have become quite disillusioned because it seems few in America look past appearance.
BTW, The Guardian is great and the NYT has sucked for years.
arguingwithsignposts
@Linda Featheringill: some of the recent Facebook changes are very troubling. Talk about Big Brother. You can bet Homeland Security has tabs on everyone involved in Facebook related to the protests.
beltane
More excellence from The Guardian:
Austerity undertaken for the benefit of the global parasite class will eventually turn everyone into a DFH. The property tax provisions of the new Greek bailout package are feudalism at its finest.
Linda Featheringill
@arguingwithsignposts:
Aahh. You make me feel young again! I used to have fed and local files. And was followed at times when the police had quiet and boring days. It made me feel more important that I really was!
John X.
cleek,
Time to update your bullshit. The New York protests are turning into a major international scandal thanks to the amount of coverage that its getting abroad. So, the dirty hippies were actually very effective.
For the history buffs, this is also how the civil rights era protests blew up. The American media downplayed and ignored them, but it dominated the coverage in Europe and the Eastern Bloc.
Thanks to declassification, we now know that freaked out the leaders in D.C. The Democrats and Republicans came together to support the civil rights acts not because it was the right thing to do, but because they were increasingly worried that the situation in the South was dramatic and effective propaganda against the U.S.
John X.
Right wing America’s hate and fear of hippies will start to look cute and nostalgic if the West actually develops an actual insurrection movement. When people like Papayiannis decide to “take it to the man”, they’ll do it with assault rifles and Molotov cocktails, not peace signs and sit-ins.
nancydarling
@John X.: Should I be cultivating closer relationships with my gun toting hillbilly neighbors?
daveNYC
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Well it’d be a building full of people, so there is that. Plus, I’m not willing to bet that all the skyscrapers in the area will have the engineering fortitude to hold up as well as the towers did. Nor will they be so polite as to fall straight down, as opposed to toppling onto their neighbors. Giving the NYPD big-ass guns will probably all end in tears, but a straight up counting of deaths, downing a plane is probably less costly than letting it hit its target.
And we’re probably lucky that this macing happened. Otherwise there wouldn’t have been any coverage of the protests at all. Sucks to be the person maced though.
cleek
@John X.:
to a first degree of approximation, essentially nobody in the US gives a flying fuck what the cheese-eating, Freedom™-hating Yurpeens think of our politics these days.
beltane
@nancydarling: That is not really a bad idea. Despite all the MSM propaganda to the contrary, such folks tend to have a strong dislike of rich people. The Republicans may have channeled that dislike for their own ends, but that doesn’t mean the underlying class resentment isn’t real.
bjacques
@John X.:
And this is what our *friends* were saying about us.
(Warning: includes N-bombs)
nancydarling
@beltane: Actually that was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. My neighbors would go to the mat for me in spite of the fact they might think me odd—gardening without roto-tilling for instance. I don’t have close relationships except with one or two who really aren’t hillbillies, but they all look out for me. I guess it helps that I am not rich and living in one of the retirement havens around here and don’t have a McMansion.
John X.
You are right cleek, the U.S. is full of nobodies that don’t care about what foreigners think. The nation’s leaders – government and CEOs – are a different matter.
John X.
You are right cleek, the U.S. is full of nobodies that don’t care about what foreigners think. The nation’s leaders – government and CEOs – are a different matter.
John X.
nancydarling,
Southern populism is a very mixed bag.
Unlike the popular conception, the South has a long history of protest against its elites. Unfortunately for everyone, those movements tend to be tied directly and indirectly to sketchy racial causes. This is as true for Southern progressives as it is for the post-1940s Klan outbreaks.
The Klan in the late 1940s and 1950s is actually a great example of how the South fucks up civil protest. The Klan had a major resurgence after the war because a ton of Southern G.I.s came back to find that they had no jobs, prospects or respect from Southern elites. Unlike the nation’s other regions, the South’s elites did not send their sons to fight WW2 in large numbers, and they did not scramble to provide jobs for their returning vets like the rest of the nation.
The returning G.I.’s organized to try to take over local governments, push out local business leaders and gain a measure of economic security. It was a full-on middle and working class rebellion.
Since it was the South, however, it was a rebellion centered around the KKK. The Southern elites, who were no friends to the black man, were able to use the blatant racism of the movement to shut it down, with eager help from the federal government. This was nothing to regret, since the newly invigorated Klan was just as eager to commit violence against blacks, poor whites who didn’t follow their “morality” and anyone else that didn’t match their worldview.
And while this was a good thing, since the KKK would have been much worse, it also shut down a movement that would have gained international sympathy had it not been contaminated by Southern racism.
geg6
@gene108:
Actually, I do realize that it’s not a smoking hole filled with rubble. I’m not living on a desert island and, since I live about an hour and a half from Shanksville, I could hardly miss all the coverage of the 9/11 anniversary, including the death pr0n at all the sites.
As for the construction workers, I could not care less what they think about my fantasy of trashing the place just to cause the usual suspects to run around with their hair on fire about a DFH “dishonoring” the dead. I know enough construction workers to know that they probably wouldn’t give a shit, especially if they are going to get paid for fixing whatever I, in my fantasy, have destroyed.
catclub
@John X.: “but there’s a level of it in all American media.”
Understatement of the year candidate.
cleek
@John X.:
oddly, they didn’t seem to give a fuck when hundreds of thousands marched against the Iraq war.
geg6
@SnarkyShark:
Fuck you, right back. But please, discount my opinion because I said fuck and wear a suit most days.
You seem to misunderstand what a lot of the criticism from people like me is about. I don’t live in New York. I live in Western PA. Dirty, foul-mouthed, pot smoking college kids playing drums and carrying around paper mache puppets is NOT going to get anyone around here fired up about anything other than disgust at dirty, foul-mouthed, pot smoking college kids. As I mentioned in one of my comments yesterday, if the crowd changes to people that the population here can relate to (nurses, teachers, firemen, and other middle class professionals that they recognize as such) and organizations that they trust (such as unions) come out as a part of the movement, not only will I be there but I’m willing to bet the vast majority of my neighbors will be cheering them on, just like they did the people of Madison and Columbus. Visuals matter whether you like it or not. And if you want this to spread, you should just shut the hell up about the adults trying to give you some advice and listen and learn from those of us who have been through this shit a couple of times and have lost because we, too, were too “smart” to listen to the adults.
John X.
cleek,
And it looks like that decision was pretty much the end of the American empire. A lot of our old buddies like Turkey are now going their own way. Good job Bush-era leaders! They made their own reality!
Mostly, I just think it is hilarious that this story has blown up, and you are still harping on how everyone does – subtext “should” – ignore the hippies. A handful of protestors has made international news, and the NYPD looks to have another brutality scandal on its hands.
The very fact that we – and a lot of other people – are talking about the protests after the media ignored them is a sign that they worked.
catclub
@John X.: “but because they were increasingly worried that the situation in the South was dramatic and effective propaganda against the U.S.”
omitted ending: in the cold war.
Ain’t no cold war fight going on now. Plus, the same elites being protested against are running Europe.
daveNYC
@John X.: They cared back in the day because of the Cold War and the desire to prevent the USSR from scoring propaganda points. I don’t see anything similar today that would cause them to care enough to do something.
John X.
The Cold War is over, which actually makes this more important. The choice now isn’t between communism and Western capitalism. Now, nations have a plethora of choices over which power, if any, they wish to support. It’s the multipolar world.
Former client states like Turkey are making the bid to become regional powers, even if it means placing themselves in opposition to the U.S. Even Latin America is developing a major player in the form of Brazil. Europe’s also starting to gravitate away from us. Russia’s back in the game.
And then there’s China.
Follow what’s happening in Latin America, Africa and the Middle East vis-a-vis China. We are in the middle of a very quiet, very non confrontational war with China over access to resources critical to maintaining a modern nation – oil, rare minerals and commodities.
It’s not dominating the papers, but the end result could prove more important than who won the Cold War. If the people who think that resource scarcities are right – and those people include the leadership of the U.S. military – this cold war could determine whether the U.S. remains in control of the supplies it needs to keep being a First World nation.
nancydarling
@John X.: And the most important resource of all is not oil, not rare minerals, but WATER.
Mary
@geg6:
I’m not taking sides on this, but your comment does raise the question – why haven’t the organizations the trust come out as part of the movement? Serious question here – is it the job of the DFHs to pull the unions into the streets, or should the unions be taking some initiative to join the DFHs? What are the DFHs supposed to do about the fact that people in Western Pennsylvania look down at them? If the only difference between Madison/Columbus and NYC is the demographics of the protesters (maybe it’s not, but that’s the way I’m reading your comment), how are the NYC protesters supposed to win people over?
Jewish Steel
@John X.:
My thoughts exactly. Thanks for help w/the democracy, mother country!
John X.
nancydarling,
Definitely.
Water’s going to be a huge flashpoint. We’ve already seen that turning water into a commodity and charging for it is a good way to start an uprising – see Cochabamba, Bolivia. That’s going to hit the Western and Deep South states soon, as their population growth is rapidly outstripping available water supplies.
I think Georgia’s going to be the place where this hits hard first. The West, for all its libertarian leanings, is used to water restrictions. Georgia’s Republicans – i.e. the people in power – have declared that the water is a local issue and are fighting like mad against any state or federal level restrictions or regional water plans.
If supplies get low enough, water systems will start to collapse. It’s unimaginable to us now, but the type of infrastructure needed to get alternative fresh water supplies to thousands – much less millions – of people does not exist in the South.
It will be bad no matter what. If things get fucked up Katrina style, people will die.
cleek
@John X.:
“international news” is almost meaningless, these days. but more importantly, making news is not the same as affecting change.
SnarkyShark
@geg6:
The point is…all your upright buddies that we nee to convince will never be convinced. Who is ACTUALLY there? Who has skin in the game? Who is getting maced? You and all your friends are hung up on appearances and not the actual substance. I am sure you will look good as you head to the solyent green factory. And history will not look back at your kind at all. You will mean nothing.
I have gone round and round with my MODERATE science teacher brother and can never even get to the gist of the matter because of his dislike of my TONE. Never mind his tone was one of scorn and condescension.So I would try to change my tone, then it was a case of I was to emotional which was bad ins some supposed way.
The long and short of it is people like you will find every excuse to DO nothing. If you and people like you find the people who go out and risk it all to be distasteful because of appearance, than you and your brethren are shallow soulless straw men who will in fact go out with a whimper.
When I stood with Cindy Sheehan(right now your sneer meter is probably on 10+) in a ditch, I met Jesuit priests, code pinks, actual communists, the last 10 actual hippies, and vets. A lot of us smelled because we were not staying at the Hilton. And there was a feeling of brotherhood that people like you will never understand.
And yeah…we had skin in the game. I was threatened at gunpoint several time.
So anybody who is out trying to put some fear into the oligarchy, who is trying to shine some light on the shadow people at personal risk is not an “asshole”
The fucking blogger who sits at his desk calling those people that term is the one who really wears it.
So fuck you, and fuck your sheep friends and fuck all the dicks who who live in western PA. You people aren’t gonna do anything anyway, so what good are you?
Mino
They are standing up and I, for one, simply salute them.
Viva, untidy democracy!
John X.
Mary,
Most of these large protests have a significant union contingent. Unions were also very involved in the Iraq War protests. You can see them if you search Google images, although it helps to know the names of the Locals involved.
One of the side effects of not covering liberal/left protests is that most people have created a fantasy image of what they entail, helped along by the tendency of the media to cover any large protest as a freakshow.
Mino
@John X.: Exactly. Those photographers are selling papers, not historical accuracy.
geg6
@SnarkyShark:
And right here is why neither I or anyone I know can or ever will take you seriously. You know nothing about me and you know nothing about my neighbors. But fuck us because we have homes, children, jobs, and a million other things that we have to take care of. I lived through this kind of shit in the early 70s and the 00s (when I was one of you) and know it gets you nowhere (and my brothers and sisters lived it in the 60s). People here, and all over the country, WANT to let the MoUs know that they’ve had enough of them but you are too pure to make them comfortable enough to join you. This will fail and fail miserably (and, hopefully, with no more violence) without people like me and my neighbors. But keep humping your purity pony and disdaining people like me. And when you’re my age, you’ll maybe have grown up enough to understand. But I doubt it.
John X.
The historical term for you guys is “victim.” You won’t act for fear of upsetting your comfortable niche, so the world will act upon you.
So, sit back and let the rest of the world do what it is going to do. It’s what you are going to do anyway, so just embrace it and stop yelling at people who are trying to make their – and by extension your – life better.
handsmile
Tangentially related to the topic, New York City-based readers may be interested to know that tonight Columbia University’s Maison Francaise will be hosting a free public event presenting a conversation with Stephane Hessel, the 93-year old author of Indignez-Vous! (Time for Outrage). (Link to the event below)
Hessel, a French Resistance leader and concentration camp survivor, has written a concise, inspiring exhortation, appealing for the adoption of the ideals of the French Resistance in the face of global social and economic predations. Published last October, it has sold million of copies world-wide; its English-language edition has just been released.
I’ll look forward to seeing you there among the other middle-class professionals who undoubtedly will be properly organized, well-dressed, and decorously behaved.
http://www.maisonfrancaise.org/
burnspbesq
@geg6:
Thanks for saying what I was thinking. Occupy Wall Street is theater that will accomplish nothing. If these clowns were about something other than narcissism, they’d be occupying the corner of First and F, Northeast, but I’d be surprised if a single one of them knows why that’s where they should be.
Amir Khalid
@daveNYC:
Another question (or two) about the NYPD having AAA: Who decided that this was a sensible use of city funds? The mayor? The police commissioner? Are there NYPD artillerymen on duty 24/7?
geg6
@Mary:
I have no idea why the unions aren’t involved in this. They certainly should be. Someone should ask them why they aren’t.
As for whose job it is…it would seem to me that those who are responsible for this action would be the ones who would reach out to bring others into their protest. Have they? I don’t know, but I haven’t seen any sort of outreach to any local organizations (the ones that got me involved in the Iraq War protests). No emails, no anything.
As for what the DFHs can do about most middle class people looking down on them, there are plenty of things but, as can be seen by the reaction to my comments here, they don’t think they need us. That attitude isn’t one that makes friends and influences people, especially when the people in question are so invested in their DFH persona that they disdain anyone who isn’t a dirty, pot smoking drum banger. It’s the same mistake the DFHs of the 60s made, but for some reason, a lesson that never seems to get learned.
The reason that the Madison and Columbus protests were successful is that they were the very picture of ordinary America. Yes, the DFHs were there in force, but they had the brains to stay out of the limelight and just organize, provide support, and stay the hell out of the media. Instead of telling people like me to go get fucked because they don’t like what I have to say, perhaps they could listen and adjust to accommodate a larger group of people who could help them further their goals.
Whatever. I hope I’m wrong and this brings down Wall Street or whatever it is that their goal is. But when the vast majority of the population is turned off by the whole thing, I have a sneaking suspicion that reaching that goal is like that unicorn I’ve always wanted. A nice thought, but not very realistic.
John X.
I am mostly amused at how many middle class types reveal that they can only grasp the world through the lens of office politics.
They do their maneuvering in a world where everything they say and do has to meet the approval of the bosses. If you dress funny, speak in the wrong way or otherwise violate the unspoken professional office Omerta, you are not going to be taken seriously.
They’ve internalized this to such an extent that they are unaware that their “that guy is so going to get fired” radar doesn’t mean shit outside of their bubble. Unfortunately, this is also the lens used by the mainstream media, so this narrow worldview gets a lot of support and affirmation.
geg6
@John X.:
LOL! –pats John X. on the head–
Darlin’, I once WAS you. Remember that in 25 or 30 years.
John X.
In a modern democracy, the purpose of a protest is to raise the visibility of an issue and spark discussion. Looks like they’ve done this.
The fact that you do not realize this basic fact of civic engagement, used by both sides, makes me wonder why you even bother commenting on politics. It certainly doesn’t seem to be an area you know much about.
John X.
geg6,
You were never me.
And, seriously, you are lecturing me on what it means to succeed in politics. I mean, can anyone who supports establishment Democratic politics feel good about their “wisdom.”
Looks to me that you and yours failed in the 1960s, came back to fail in the 1970s, failed completely in the 1980s, failed a little less in the 1990s and were rewarded by an entire decade of fail in the 2000s. Now, we’re less than four years into your team failing a little less in the 2010s, and it looks like it may destroy the Democratic Party completely.
The secret to successfully condescending to someone is being successful. Being lectured by a serial failure is like being pissed on by a fly, more funny than annoying.
Mino
@geg6: The revulsion of the middle class to the original hippies made their seduction by Republican “law and order” possible. Social issues became paramount and economic issues slipped away from their attention. Even when their wives had to get jobs to keep their standards intact. How did that work out for you guys.
Maybe you need to recognize the enemy. He’s the one wearing the good suit.
nancydarling
@burnspbesq: I live in a county that is a microcosm of your, geg6, SnarkyShark, and others arguments. It is so counterproductive to getting anything done. The eastern half is mainly a farm community and very churchy. The western half is populated by hippies, artists, and a fairly large gay community, plus lots of Bed and Breakfast owners. It has proven nearly impossible, given the attitudes, to bring the two sides together to work on much of anything. As a newcomer to the area it all looks silly to me and I straddle that divide as best I can.
Both sides take lots of cheap shots as do all of you. Narcissism indeed! If you can’t see what this is about, you aren’t paying attention.
B W Smith
@John X.: As I tried to gently explain earlier, you are missing the point. A large part of America does not buy into anything unless ‘folks like them’ are involved. They simply don’t feel sympathy otherwise. I don’t think Geg is saying that what they are doing is wrong or should be forbidden. She is saying that folks in her area simply don’t see themselves as part of the cause, yet. They need to see folks like them. Union guys or teachers or folks that have lost something they may be on the verge of losing themselves. That is simply a part of human nature. People need to see that actions may actually make their life better.
Since you spoke about Georgia, I’m wondering if you’re a resident. I am and I can tell you, this type of demonstration does not sell well here, even to folks who may be affected by what the DFHs are protesting.
cleek
@geg6:
i can think of a few things that i would prefer over seeing our economy collapse.
if the bored college kids want to destroy something, they should stick to their own lives.
geg6
@John X.:
LOL! –pats John X.’s head again–
There’s good visibility and bad visibility. Don’t think you’ve mastered which is which yet.
As for my credentials for commenting on politics, I won’t go there. Suffice it to say that I have plenty. It’s you who needs to learn a few lessons, but you will, I’m sure.
Oh, but dear boy, I certainly was. I was the whole dirty, pot smoking, tit baring, never-met-a-protest-I-wouldn’t-join package. Always takin’ it to DA MAN!
And then I grew up.
Gotwolfy
@John X.: Geg6 is not a “Victim” he is a parasite he sits on is ass waiting for other to do the work needed to affect the change he will benefit from all the while disrespecting those who actually do the work
John X.
Of this I have no doubt. You have the feel of someone who gets their paycheck from a political party.
And I grew up, too. Child of the ’70s, I am. I grew up in a place where my parents jobs were outsourced by Democrats for the greater good. I grew in a place where the middle class has disappeared, jobs are gone and the community is a shell of itself. Going on disability and selling oxycontin is the best job in the county.
While all you too cool for school types were busy selling out, the rest of us in the nation were suffering. Life was getting harder and harder, and now the bottom has completely dropped out.
But I’m sure that your paycheck is secure. That’s all the grownups care about.
Berial
Sorry, but John X just sounds like a teenager raging against the adults in his world. YOU WERE NEVER LIKE ME! YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND!!
If he and this movement don’t want the middle class squares to help, then they have decided to do it on their own. Wish them luck, and offer advice(even though he seems determined to ignore it), but at the end of the day they have to live with their choices just like all the rest of us.
SnarkyShark
@SnarkyShark:
Yeah I get it. Hippies vs the Squares. You cant get past 1968.
Sorry but events are moving fast.Fire is coming to you whether your some god fearing Penn dwelling real murkin or not. I am not a purity troll, but I will not countenance your calling people who risk much as “assholes” which YOU did. Purity? If they are not squeaky clean than your just not gonna listen. I think your the one hung up on purity. You dont know anything about me, but your calling these kids who are going up against the overlords “assholes” really does tell me about you.
Oh and for your blue-collar heroes, here is a hint. The cop is not the hero here. He’s the asshole. How does that work in your morality play?
The dirty fucking hippies are right, have always been right, and you hate them for it square boy.
Just because you might understand the right wing is insane doesn’t win you any wisdom points. Sounds like you haven’t learned shit.
nancydarling
@geg6: I was live streaming OccupyWall Street on Friday or Saturday and heard some of the protesters discussing how to bring more of the people you seem to represent on board. They are aware of the need to broaden their representation.
This movement is still in the birthing stage, and all of you naysayers need to give it a chance to at least be born.
John X.
Actually, I am a Southern professional who is watching the communities around him disintegrate. That’s making me a little furious, while it’s driving my conservative neighbors insane.
So, I’m not going to take much condescension from some former hippie who likes to drop hints at how connected he is. If he is so connected, his life work has ended up destroying the lives of many of my neighbors.
My basic take on the situation is that all you upright citizens has completely fucked up everything. And you are sitting around condescending people who are actually trying to undo your damage.
SnarkyShark
@nancydarling:
Ah, the both sides argument. David Brooks would be proud.
One side wants everybody to be who they want to be, the other side demands conformity.
Both sides are not the same.
geg6
Have we been invaded by rejects from GOS and a Rage Against the Machine concert?
FTR, I look fondly upon the Wall Street protesters and support their right to do it. I also, probably, support whatever they are protesting (still haven’t quite gotten a good read on what that is).
As for this:
and this:
Funniest fucking shit I’ve read in years. For real.
Psssst…Gotwolfy? I’m a girrrrrrl.
cleek
i went over to occupywallst.org to see if i could figure out exactly what these people are up to.
and what did i find? shit like this:
working groups! a “General Assembly”! people who are still trying to figure out why they are even there. it’s a fucking academic field trip.
railing against unspecified “powers” in “buildings”. addiction to vague protest, process.
reciting the Principles of Solidarity! which were approved by the General Assembly! mush-mouthed, vague, political science slogans. it’s The Life Of Brian.
say what you will about the teabaggers, at least they get to the fucking point; at least they know what they want and can communicate it to you.
the left? well, they’ll tell you what they want as soon as the fucking General Assembly gets the full report from the designated working group and drafts, then ratifies, an appropriate Statement of Purpose.
meanwhile, look at the buildings…! feel the power! ooh, i think Noam Chomsky’s going to speak, grab your drum!
nancydarling
@SnarkyShark: I’m on your side Snark. I didn’t say both sides are the same. I said both sides are taking cheap shots at each other—there’s a difference. The heated rhetoric accomplishes nothing.
John X.
geg6,
You haven’t made a Free Mumia joke yet? Rage Against the Machine references? Hate to tell you, but the 90s were 20 years ago.
Here’s the thing. A lot of people, even some who would match your definition of “Real People”, are plenty pissed. I get that this is just how you piss time away while waiting for the office clock to strike 5, but this is real life for some people.
I wear a suit and tie to work. I know office politics and can play them very well. When I see people like you trying to do the “oooh, he’s not serious.
John X.
geg6,
You haven’t made a Free Mumia joke yet? Rage Against the Machine references? Hate to tell you, but the 90s were 20 years ago.
Here’s the thing. A lot of people, even some who would match your definition of “Real People”, are plenty pissed. I get that this is just how you piss time away while waiting for the office clock to strike 5, but this is real life for some people.
I wear a suit and tie to work. I know office politics and can play them very well.
geg6
@nancydarling:
Again, I’m willing to listen. I still haven’t gotten any alerts from any of the organizations I belong to nor has anyone yet explained what this is all about to my satisfaction. I’m willing to do what I can when I can see that someone other than a bunch of the usual completely ineffective suspects (anarchists, communists, and bored college students) is in charge. Been there, done that, you see. But they sure aren’t making any friends here (in my world) today.
SnarkyShark
@cleek:
And that way the Oligarchy can do what they do back in the shadows. You think you’re invited to the picnic? You’re not, but your betters thank you for your support.
And you have moved from mildly annoying to full on dick.
geg6
@cleek:
Heh.
I rest my case.
John X.
nancydarling,
I’m mostly just amused at these guys. They aren’t going to be the part of any movement. They’re just old dudes replaying some internal soundtrack from several decades ago.
Whatever happens, these dudes will be on the sidelines making Chomsky jokes. They aren’t engaged in reality. They’re replaying the old hits, following the script where they were always the heroes for putting on the suit and getting a job while the people who continued to march were fools.
I wasn’t on either side of those wars, too young, so I mostly know the references second-hand. I’m sure that it felt the same way for the hippies listening to old guard criticize them for reading Emma Goldman and talking about the Wobblies.
nancydarling
@geg6: You don’t have a case. It’s too soon to pass judgment. However ephemeral, their goals are much the same as the rest of us. Can we give it some time before we write it off?
SnarkyShark
@geg6:
That’s hilarious since you specifically called them “assholes” but now you are craw-fishing.
The fact is you are about style over substance as are a large amount of Americans. The desperate times that are here for a lot of Americans and that will come for you will focus the mind for all those ass-hats and their shallow as hell fellow travelers.
I don’t read GOS and I don’t go to Rage concerts.
What I do is work for candidates who I perceive to be real and stand up to right wing bullies here in Texas every day.
Mino
@cleek: That is pretty funny. But everyone has to begin somewhere. I’ve heard lending libraries in the area are doing great business. I hope they’re reading Alinsky and not a beach novel.
But their stated aim is to occupy Wall Street and they are doing that just by being there. The other could be make-work to occupy their time. (And, it does draw attention to Obama’s Buffet Law.) Next move is up to Wall Street and their people I guess.
cleek
@John X.:
i should point out here that a Chomsky post is currently on the top of occupyingwallst.org.
John X.
I just realized that I’m arguing with Statler and Waldorf. Even the Muppets knew better than that.
Sorry for the waste of time everyone!
Berial
@SnarkyShark
Go back and read what geg6 said again. From what I remember she was calling ‘anonymous’ the internet hacking group that put the policeman’s personal information out on the internet ‘assholes’. NOT the protestors themselves.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@arguingwithsignposts:
Fix’t.
nancydarling
@John X.: I think there is an element of fear in the naysayers, John. Just like the tea party looks at the changes around them and fears for their future, they are scared as things hurtle out of control in their lives as well as the world.
Things will keep hurtling if we do nothing. It would be nice if we could work together.
burnspbesq
@John X.:
Trying in ways that are certain to fail is the same as not trying.
The best any of those protestors can hope for is to get out of town without a felony conviction that will fuck up their entire life. They will change nothing. They will gain nothing, except perhaps a bit of the same kind of self-esteem that AYSO creates in little kids by giving everybody a trophy.
You may think that the political process is broken, but for the moment it’s the only political process we have, and if you don’t engage with it, you are wasting your time. If you want to accomplish something, take a shower, shave, and go see your Congresscritter the next time he or she is in the district. They only way they will ever know what your priorities are is if you communicate with them, and a face-to-face with a polite but passionate constituent will have an impact.
Elie
@John X.:
I absolutely agree with you — it is a multi-polar world and control of key resources is going to be (IS) huge. I also agree with nancydarling that water is going to factor in a huge way. We need to set our caps correctly to the shifting paradigm.
I will add however, that the looming/ongoing financial crisis in Europe has not played out yet and we will not know who is damaged by it fully for a while. Putin reassuming overt control of Russia and the firing of their well regarded Financial minister shows some vulnerability by the Russians as the financial debacle begins to involve them more overtly.
I really hate that we are taking a somewhat hostile approach in our discussions with each other on this site in regards to the protests. I think that we need to just be open and pay attention and its extremely important to respect each other as we open our eyes to be able to grok what is happening. This is really not all that easy in a virtual community where we know each other only by handles and some rustic memory of points of view stated in the past or whatever. It is critical however that the progressives do not end up again, fracturing before we even understand the import of not just this but many many other critical factors/issues that will be happening pretty soon.
Please — lets be passionate with each other but also respectful. Words can hurt like fists and we need to understand and come together. This is a note to myself as well and I don’t mind being reminded of it…
thanks
geg6
@nancydarling:
I keep asking, what ARE their goals? And how do they plan to achieve them?
Until they can answer that, it’s all theater. I love theater, but theater never accomplished anything politically, not even some of the greatest theater like “Angels in America” or “Lysistrata.” When they get real, I’m with them 100%.
nancydarling
@Elie: Hear! Hear!
John X.
nancydarling,
Working together would be nice, but I think Martin Luther King had these guy’s number when he wrote about the type in “Letter From a Birmingham Jail”:
nancydarling
@geg6: And I keep answering, “Give them a little time—at least more than a couple of weeks.”
cleek
@geg6:
i’d like to know that, as well.
even the self-righteous keyboard martyr defense brigade here can’t explain what the fucking point is.
all they can do is complain how we just don’t get it, man. how we’re too button-down and square and in love with our petty bourgeois comforts to see the real revolution that’s taking place in the streets, right now!
wake up sheeple!
and then John X writes without irony:
i’ve found it helps if i read their posts in the voice of Tommy Chong – even though all that shit was old when he was mocking it, in the early 70s.
SnarkyShark
@geg6:
I’m not one of those college kids. I work in the field that makes the Machine run-energy. You have no idea how much your world is going to change in the next few years. I am solidly in the generation that is going to get fucked out of their entitlements(meaning I paid into therefore I am entitled.). I can deal with all that, but what I cant deal with is your condescending attitude.
What you need to understand is no one needs your support or vote or anything. Most especially we don’t need your approval. The people who are going to fight will fight and the people that need their unions and political party to tell them what to do will slip off into the obscurity they richly deserve. History will remember those kids but it wont remember you.
You just don’t matter, but I will be damned if it doesn’t feel good to let you know that. These days, I will take any little feel good I can get.
SnarkyShark
@Berial:
Anonymous does great work. They are desperately needed. They are one of the few weapons we have that the overlords fear.
That asshole cop deserved every bit of that since his conscience can’t keep him in check.
So it all applies anyway.
Elie
@John X.:
John, major change or revolution does not happen inside people like a light switch. People move over to new thinking, sometimes incrementally. I have seen it happen on enviro issues.
Please, do not kill with premature judgement. Just let it be and let awareness emerge. Its not just a bimodal thing — either for or against — but every shade of gray — always.
People have to have psychological room to move over. It cannot be coerced. MLK was pretty despondent when he wrote that letter. If one believes in the bible, even Jesus asked that the bitter chalice of his fate be passed from his lips. There is no evidence that this one selection you quote defined MLK’s central premise. His work was not judgement, but to awaken us and to help us move forward, despite the weak wills of our fellows…
Its a long arc towards justice… very long.
SnarkyShark
@burnspbesq:
Bullshit. The Political process is broken beyond repair. All the things you suggested will do far less than what these kids are doing.
But keep telling yourself it will all work out.
Stefan
@The Republic of Stupidity:
… in a city whose police commissioner acknowledges the ownership of a gun big enough to take down a plane…
Such transparent bullshit. Of course the NYPD can’t bring down a plane. He was lying, and CBS helped propagate his lie.
Think about it: any aerial threat in US airspace is the responsibility of the Defense Department. DOD has not ceded its airspace authority to the NYPD.
And then, of course, there’s the fact that planes move pretty damn fast. By the time a plane actually gets over NYC, it’s too late to do anything about it.
Not to mention the fact that to take down a plane, you need either (a) another plane, which means a jet fighter in the air, and I don’t think the NYPD has too many of those, or (b) surface to air attack capacity in 360 degrees, which means you need artillery or missile emplacements all around the city, which I think I would have noticed on my jaunts around town. And then of course you need highly trained personnel to man those emplacements around the clock, always ready and primed to go. Does the NYPD have a dozen manned missile emplacements around the city, from Staten Island to the Bronx, from the West Side Highway to the Nassau border, with the ability to lock in and target high speed planes? (And remember, NYC is home to three regional airports with thousands of planes crossing its airspace every day).
As said, such bullshit. Even if we actually assumed it was physically possible in Bizarro World, do you actually think there’s an NYPD commander alive who’ll ever actually pull the trigger on shooting down a plane, knowing the consequences if he downed a commercial airliner by mistake?
MattR
@SnarkyShark:
Pretty much this. There is definitely room for criticism about how to most effectively protest and bring about change, but geg6 seems much more interested in tearing down those who are out there trying to effect change than in constructively helping them become more effective.
John X.
SnarkyShark,
I think the constant use of “kids” is interesting. Beyond the fact that most people here are 30+ – that’s the demos on the political blogs, skews older – there’s the fact that every successful protest movement, rebellion and war is fought and won by kids.
They are always the ones with skin in the game. The fact that someone feels that “kid” is an insult and that it somehow invalidates their contribution says a lot about them.
God, these people must hate their 20-something selves so much. The very idea that a young person is anything like the person they used to be automatically disqualifies these “kids” in their eyes.
I know I made mistakes, but the 20-something old me had his shit together, graduated college and made a life for himself. I don’t hate him, and I’d respect anyone who did the same.
No wonder they are so bitter. I can’t imagine dealing with that much self-hatred.
Berial
@SnarkyShark
Putting the personal information of thousands of playstation users on the internet for any criminal to use is NOT work that is desperately needed. What part of anonymous’ conscience kept them in check?
Just because the group proclaims to be on your side doesn’t mean they are. They are for chaos and anarchy, not improving anyone’s lot in life.
John X.
Elie,
I have no doubt that they’ll change when the status quo shifts. Most people do.
That’s why there are millions more people who claim to have protested with the Freedom Riders, marched on Washington, went to Woodstock or otherwise participated in positive change than actually were at any of these events.
On a larger level, these guys are the peanut gallery in this blog and have been so for a long time. They aren’t engaged in a discussion with you, they are fighting their eternal war against enemies real and imagined.
Elie
@SnarkyShark:
I understand your anger but is it helpful to say that some of us don’t matter? That may or not be true, but how is it going to help to alienate and insult people who largely support your values, even as they may not be exactly where you are or have experienced your specific disappointments? We have all been eaten by “the machine” and our society, our critical relationships with each other and this planet show those scars.
Please. Try talking with us in a way we don’t have to be punished to share your insights and experiences. No one wants to be beaten up in order to understand your point of view. We already get a fair amount of that in life already.
SnarkyShark
@Elie:
Sorry Ellie, but MLK nailed it. And just four years after the R’s bankrupted this country and while they are still playing party first games we are all set to elect some more Rs.
People are getting stupider and more entrenched.
Of course with the D’s being pretty much useless maybe it’s just lack of any hope.
Midnight Marauder
@SnarkyShark:
Here’s the problem, though. Burgeoning movements like Occupy Wall Street DO, in fact, need the support and votes of people like geg6 is referring to. That’s why you keep taking so much heat in this thread. You are talking about a movement that is attempting to turn itself into a political coalition, and a great deal of the members of that movement seem apathetic at best, and openly hostile at worst, to the people their movement needs in order to blossom into a legitimate and respected political force.
Because none of these protests mean a goddamn thing if they don’t result in real world policy changes. If Occupy Wall Street doesn’t somehow lead to the creation of a legitimate political coalition with explicitly stated policy goals and aims, with an achievable manner of enacting them, then all of this effort is just a vain exercise in getting people involved in an activity that feels good, sure, but is pretty much impotent in nature.
That’s the problem we find ourselves facing here. It is all well and good that people are out doing something on the front line. Yes, we absolutely need more of that, no doubt. But what the Left has actually long and desperately needed is well-constructed policy goals and slogans that connect and unite people from all corners of the country against the common enemy. Shit like this:
is the definition of failure. No movement will succeed with that kind of mealy-mouthed nonsense. That shit literally doesn’t mean anything to the people for which it needs to mean something.
And in closing, comments like this:
are really fucking insulting to the hard work unions all over the country have laid down over the years. It’s kind of the exact problem people keep pointing out in this thread.
Elie
@John X.:
This statement is not true.
Civil rights in this country for black Americans was fought by everyone, but led by mature people both black and white and won by all of us. The work of course, continues.
Whats with the ageism implied in your view? Is there something instrinsic about being mature that prevents you from respecting the points of view of people who have lived longer than you? And what if people do say they were part of some movement or protest that they weren’t. Who cares? What does that have to do with getting people aware and engaged?
Why not build this “army” from a positive place? Why not accept people as they are and from where they are coming? What’s with judgement as a focal point? How does that help you or more importantly, any change that needs to be made?
SnarkyShark
@Elie:
Yes…the truth needs to be said.
As to my experience. I went to Crawford early in the process. When I arrived the Crawford police were fixing to shut it all down because the trash was backing up. Someone had donated the use of a trailer which I hooked up to my truck and started hauling to the dump everyday. It was amazing how everybody just took it on themselves to perform some task or take on some responsibility. By the end of it I had direct access to the cash dispersant. I know who funded it(not Soros). In the end, it was the most effective anti-war protest of the whole period. And it started with Cindy standing in a ditch. That’s why all the Gotta have a plan brigade can suck eggs.
And that’s why one man can make a difference, but that man or woman is not some bloggy fool looking down his nose at DFHs.
History will remember those who engage in direct action, but not those who risked nothing and did nothing.
Its a simple fact. Trying to sugar coat it for scared rabbits accomplishes nothing.
handsmile
@burnspbesq: (#79)
I’m choosing to respond to you because I respect your (often caustic) commentary and because of our enduring spats over football-related topics. That said, however, I must assert that your remarks about the “Occupy Wall Street” protestors are grossly misinformed and vulgar.
Having twice visited the protest site last week, I wrote of my experiences on an earlier thread in response to the predictably spurious media reports, as well as the surprising number of ignorant and odious comments here.
Most of the protestors with whom I spoke were impressively well-informed and sophisticated about issues of global finance, banking and securities regulation, and Washington political economic gamesmanship. Moreover, most were fully cognizant of their representation by the corporate media and strove, perhaps quixotically, to counter those stereotypes.
I freely acknowledge that this is not the area of my expertise, but neither, from what I have read, is it yours, and I am confident that the subject is dimly grasped by many who seem most indignant by this protest. And yup, anecdotes (mine included) are not data.
The clownish self-regard you attribute to the protesters is unwarranted, based on my own first-hand encounters. Yes, there was drumming, papier-mache heads, songs from the 60s, and people whose earnestness exceeded their apprehension of the ostensible reason for their presence. And of course, it is no surprise that the corporate media chooses to train their cameras and microphones onto those people and activities.
Yet in far too many responses to this protest, It has been dispiriting to discover how diligently the tenets of Babbitry are articulated here at Balloon Juice.
nancydarling
@SnarkyShark: Just as I plead to the naysayers to give this movement time to gain coherence, I would ask you to give the “scared rabbits” a little more time to come on board. Many of them will.
John X.
Elie,
Read the context. The crux of the argument against me and others is that we are silly kids who will one day grow up to be ashamed of ourselves. That’s what I was reacting against.
King was in his 20s when he led the civil rights movement. There were people of all ages involved, but you need to actually look at the photos. The civil rights movement was a young movement.
“Kids” are the backbones of these movements. There’s a practical reason for this. They do not have the “security” of a good job, family and other levers that can be used against them if they get out of line. They also have the perspective of someone who hasn’t bought into the society yet, but they know that they will have to live their lives in whatever world their elders have built.
There’s a place for everyone, but anyone who wants to build a movement without the “kids” will fail. That’s not to say that there aren’t a lot of 20-somethings working politics, but a lot of them are just new employees working their way up the chain and are functionally little different and no more likely to revolt than any random mall manager.
SnarkyShark
@Midnight Marauder:
I am not saying unions and political parties are not important, but having to have an organization plan your day is ridicules. First of all, political parties are about useless anymore and if you want to see people nod off, come out with some political party talking points. More doing, less talking.
Second of all, are there even any unions anymore? Because here in Texas it sure doesn’t seem like it.
As far as taking shit from the commentators, I got two washed up supposed hippies acting like they have wisdom because they have totally given in and rolled over.
I gives me a sad
harlana
passion is not always a bad thing
John X.
Start making contact with the service employee unions. They are growing and are very activist. Here’s the Texas branch of the SEIU:
http://www.seiutx.org
The old guard unions are fading away. A lot of them are far too entwined with Democratic machine politics, as well, which limits the type of causes they will come out to support.
But there are strong and growing union movements. They’re just happening in the service industry – i.e. where all the employees went after the factories closed up and moved abroad.
cleek
@harlana:
nope.
but it needs to be coherent, if it’s going to attract anyone but anarchists and nihilists.
harlana
reading this thread really makes me flash back to the 60’s – with a strange twist
it is tragic that old and young are fighting like this, we need to remember who the real enemy is
but it’s a blog so i hope that most of this is just a bunch of words and venting
either that or, “both sides do it”
((ducks))
Midnight Marauder
@SnarkyShark:
Except no one is talking about putting together a fucking itinerary. We’re talking about putting together a political action plan that focuses on how to enact long term goals while circumventing short term circumstances. This isn’t about having an organization “plan your day”; this is about pairing up your vision with the experience and leadership who actually have the tools to manifest that vision into reality. It’s about not blithely dismissing that experience by referring to it as “an organization plan your day.”
I’m pretty sure the success of the Republican Party at the local, state, and federal level in enacting their agenda of inequality and discrimination would vehemently disagree with you. Maybe the problem is that the people who are running those parties have gotten too comfortable with the narrative that props up their way of life, not that the political parties exist in the first place. Maybe the political parties need better leadership, better representation, that is capable of crafting talking points that are so erudite and concise that they don’t even sound like talking points.
Surely, you cannot be this dense.
For fucks sake, do you really not see how moronic this position is?
geg6
@cleek:
THIS.
John X.
cleek,
My Facebook is full of people who have dropped in on the protest for a day or two. Most of them have jobs, so they can only protest for a few hours here and there.
None of them are anarchists or nihilists. And to my knowledge, this is a first protest for many of them. With the exception of some of the Obama rallies, these aren’t the types who frequent protests. Hell, most of them went to the Obama events for the musical guests.
A lot of people have been personally affected by what’s happened since 2008. We’ve lost jobs, seen friends lose jobs and have seen our lifestyles decline. People are genuinely angry, and these protests are drawing a wide range of people.
If this was a traditional political event, with the well-designed t-shirts, professionally printed signs and rhetoric tailored to neither overly offend or excite anyone, they’d have stayed home.
Elie
@John X.:
I think its hard to be a leader in a movement that despises a large constituency who might want to be a part of it.
The Khmer Rouge in Combodia used an approach that identified and purged the professional and leadership class including anyone educated, including physicians.
Resentment does not lead to good things in any situation that you want to make change. Where do you build from a place where you despise? How do you differ from the fascists who also believe in the rule of a select few who are worthy?
John X.
Elie,
And you miss King’s point. King was not talking about putting the white moderates against the wall, he was stating the simple fact that there are some people who will make sounds vaguely supporting your ideas, but they are not on your side.
Time spent courting them is wasted. They are not going to join you. In fact, their identity is based on being a “reasonable” alternative to you, and their position is secured by their unwillingness to actually make waves. They are not a potential friend.
These people are not part of your movement, and they never will be. If your ideas take hold, they’ll follow them when there is no social stigma in doing so. Otherwise, they will always be on the outside pissing at you.
nancydarling
@John X.: Excellent point, John. But I still think it’s too early in the game to categorize people—on either side of this troublesome issue.
Elie
@John X.:
I didnt mean King. I meant YOU.
As I said (not to say you mean that), but the Khmer Rouge just got rid of those folks…
Your contempt however IS the point. I would consider you at least an informal leader.. your direction then would be to shower the non revolutionaries with… your eternal contempt and they then should just shut up cause they are old cowards?
C’mon now… haven’t you benefited from the sacrifice of others in your life?
cleek
@John X.:
any chance your opinion about the size, scope and reach of this event is colored by the fact that a lot of the people you know are into it? a bit of the old selection bias, perhaps?
as a counter example, nobody on my Facebook feed has posted anything about this.
yes, i’m sure that’s because i’m part of the problem.
i haven’t seen the data. also, last time i checked, the Chicago version drew all of 20 people. so maybe the plural is a little grand, for now.
and i wouldn’t be caught dead at a protest that needed working groups, a General Assembly, a Solidarity Pledge, etc..
i’m still waiting to hear what these people think they’re going to accomplish and how they plan to do it. chanting pledges in the rain might build solidarity, but so what? what’s the fucking goal?
Elie
@John X.:
Reread your comment.
generally agree with it.
singfoom
Jesus, this point is still going around and around? Look, criticize the protesters if you like. You think they don’t have a coherent message and therefore you don’t support them? Fine.
They’re out there doing something to try to change the situation. Maybe it won’t work. Maybe it will. Will numbers in specific cities go up and down? Yes. If they don’t give up, the numbers will grow and more people will notice.
If you don’t support them, then don’t support them, but there’s no reason to mock them. At least they’re out there trying to do something.
But hey, cash in your cool kid cynic points by pointing out that they’re disorganized hippies. Regardless of the goal of the protest, I’m pretty sure their goal is better than feeling self-satisfied that you’re superior to them.
ETA: Chicago organizing page: http://occupychi.org
cleek
@singfoom:
what is “the situation”?
how are they going to change it?
to what?
what are the collateral costs?
what are the chances they’ll succeed?
what? why? how?
what is that goal?
why should i support something nobody can define?
more talk about General Assemblies, working groups, etc.. nothing about any specific goals. sounds like an exercise in parliamentary procedure for guerrilla bureaucrats.
singfoom
@cleek:
1)what is “the situation”?: From Link
Their statement:
Seems to me the situation is one we talk about here all the time at BJ. The slavish devotion of our political system to Wall Street money.
Seems simple enough to me. They want to highlight the economic inequality here in the US.
The basic act of being out in public and highlighting that inequality seems to be how they are going to change it.
I don’t know what the collateral costs are. Their safety?
As for their chances, it seems like they’re growing, so more attention means a win, from my point of view.
what? why? how? : See above.
what is that goal?:
I don’t really care if you support it or not, but I think you’re being deliberately obtuse and denigrating people whose hearts are in the right place.
nancydarling
@cleek: No one is asking you to support them but a “wait and see” attitude would be nice.
eemom
haven’t had time to read this thread, but I posted on the earlier one.
It is just beyond me how anyone can criticize these people, wring their hands and obsess over the supposed inadequately defined message.
What fucking defined “message” do the Teatards have?
What we need on the STREETS is focused anger against the status quo, not a fucking power point presentation.
John X.
I think that’s the point.
The genuinely funny thing here is that this worldview is completely rooted in the experience of white middle class Americans from about 1967 until now. If you go outside that narrow lens, you’ll find tons of examples of protest movements that changed societies, toppled governments and started wars.
Some of these are the kind of examples you’d want to avoid, but political protest has a pretty good track record when it comes to changing things. And if you look at how these movements started, it’s usually a small group of ragtag protestors with muddled messages forming the center for a larger group of people to rally around.
eemom
also too: how exactly do you world-weary haters fear these protests are going to HURT our “message”? If the best you can come up with is “dirty fucking hippies, eeeew,” that’s pretty doggone lame.
eemom
and also three: the ARROGANCE of presuming you are the all-knowing judge of what is required to effect change.
Did your sage selves predict that that poor Tunisian man who set himself on fire would start what we’ve been seeing in the ME for the past 8 months? Was he ON MESSAGE enough for you?
Dayum, I’m on a roll here. But I gotta get back to work. :(
Elie
@John X.:
Yes.
But they have to catch something on fire… and that is the challenge with little formal media coverage. Yes, there is tweet and facebook and social media. And maybe the first time or two the flame doesnt catch… but there IS potential even if the “message” or goals are not always 100% clear. Just expressing the power of the people and their anger in a visible way is important and makes a statement right there… I will agree to that for sure..
But to follow on with what cleek said, how can those of sympathetic mind set in the formal power and political structure riff off of this for bettering our situation right today? Like the Tea Party but much better and more legitimate than the Koch brothers were to that ginned up movement?
Elie
@eemom:
You are! ;-)
cleek
@eemom:
seriously?
small government, less spending, lower taxes.
careful with that straw. it’s flammable.
@nancydarling:
wait and see? the tone of people here makes it sound like this is some kind of revolutionary moment.
What do we want?
We don’t know!
When do we want it?
Eventually!
The revolution will be specified!
meh. have fun, kids. watch out for the cops.
singfoom
@cleek: Failblog, cleek. I responded to your questions and you just slide on by for more snide commentary.
So you don’t support them and think they’re jokes. Thanks for your feedback.
Corner Stone
@burnspbesq:
I’m not sure how high up on the Unintentional Comedy Scale this is, but it has got to be waaayyy up there. Having burnspbesq echo your thoughts on a protest against Wall St.? That’s comedy gold Jerry.
Corner Stone
@cleek:
Welp, I think that pretty much sums that up.
Corner Stone
@SnarkyShark:
The “heat” I have seen towards you is coming from the exact sources I would have expected. Which is not a bad thing.
Elie
@cleek:
cleek:
don’t you think that the goal/s will evolve as the movement becomes more energized? It is not uncommon in big mave population wide movements for many goals, sometimes in conflict, to be expressed..
We NEED and have needed energy to push back on the power structure from the left. We have sorely missed that energy and it needs to be given a chance to ignite the common interest. I believe for example, that there are many progressive values that would be attractive to ALL americans, not just the left and financial justice (my term), where the criminals who screwed and are screwing our country get justice, is a huge interest.
We got a whole progressive movement going out here locally in NW WA based on water quality and enviro issues and got a whole bunch of good people elected and policies enacted. Success and energy breed success and more energy…
We need energy desperately — we have to wake something up inside…
El Cid
This is sort of interesting on this topic.
These freaks need to get a fucking job.
It’s people like this who make it totally impossible for me to have done a much better and more effective and appealing protest in the first place, which I totally would have gotten around to.
eemom
@cleek:
Sure, two years in the sheep have FINALLY mastered their “two legs better” chant. The pigs couldn’t teach it to them overnight.
But back at the wretched naissance of their “movement”, there were actual POLLS showing that half of them didn’t know what the fuck they were agitating for.
Elie
@El Cid:
that is how to make the garden grow – :-)
More of this…
eemom
@El Cid:
thank you.
Seriously, I can’t believe the attitude I’m seeing here.
John X.
Corner Stone,
I work with college students. They aren’t bored. They’re scared shitless about graduating in a job market with no jobs. Lots of kids are suddenly discovering the need for a second major, study abroad or grad school.
It’s not the ’90s anymore, folks. We’re in the middle of a massive global recession that shows no sign of ending anytime soon, and the powers that be seem mostly concerned with making sure the bankers get paid.
The old insults don’t work as well in this environment.
Elie
I still don’t think that we need to be insulting to each other. No need for that. We need positivity and energy. Anger and knee capping each other just takes that away. We have many many things in common and that is what needs to drive us.. yeah, some of us may not be your best friends, but we share at least some mutual vision about fairness and justice. Lets start there and give everyone a chance to be right or wrong for a change without holding it against them forever…
singfoom
@eemom: I can’t either. The mind boggles. People are out there trying to make a difference just by being out on the street and calling attention to the inequality here in the US.
Even if they are naive, even if some of them or the majority of them are DFHs and they’re not “coherent”, props to them for putting their bodies on the line against the NYPDs tactics.
Corner Stone
@John X.: Yeah, that was me summing up cleek’s awful misunderstanding about who is engaged in this specific protest. It probably could have used another sentence to clarify.
The point was that cleek is blathering on endlessly about how he by darn just can’t kind of figure out what the protestors waaaannnttt.
Yet by calling them “bored college kids” he’s revealed that he hasn’t even bothered to skim any piece of information or reporting about the protestors.
John X.
As near as I can tell, he thinks they wandered in through a wormhole from a 1993 Free Mumia rally. I’m not really getting an engaged and coherent vibe from his critique.
Elie
@singfoom:
Agree
And who knows what may take shape? Timing and the Gods… who knows?
eemom
@cleek:
and fuck that tired “strawman” shit. What’s the answer to my question? How are these protests BAD for our side?
Elie
cleek is not awful. He differed with the rationale or did not get the rationale. He asked open questions and does not deserve to be shown outrage for questioning. That is not what liberalism is about, no?
There are different points of view and will be. If the sit in on Wall Street energizes us to do and come together for important things…I am all on board and will see what happens. Most of all, lets hope it – the energy – catches on more and more. That is the most important thing…
cleek
@eemom:
the issue of income equality/Wall St malfeasance/whatever-these-people-are-complaining-about is now associated with the incoherent giant puppet and drum circle brigade.
singfoom
@Elie: Well, I know there’s a protest as well here in Chicago, and I’ve donated. I’m already sick and I’ve got work to do, so I’m going to stop by and see if I can help with any material needs for the Chicago protestors.
Time will tell indeed. This could be the beginning of something major.
John X.
Elie,
No. He is actively mocking you and your positions. That’s not cool.
Elie
@singfoom:
what did you donate to?
cleek
@Elie:
how could i know?
if i was going to have a “movement”, i’d know what it was going to be about before i packed my napsack. “we’ll figure out what we’re upset about when we get there,” seems backwards, to me.
@singfoom:
huh?
i’m serious. WTF is this about? and why can’t any of the websites dedicated to it spell it out? all i can tell from reading what they write about it is that standard lefty complaints are being hashed out by General Assemblies and working groups.
Elie
@John X.:
I can take it. I do not see him as mocking me even if he is/was. Its not important..
We are trying to start a camp fire in a fierce wind and we have to protect the flame. Lets nurture that activity and not worry so much what is going to happen to the rest. We are all the flame, cleek included…
singfoom
@cleek: #155, read it. I’m honestly done with you. I understand that you think this is college kids and DFHs and will amount to nothing. I think you’re clutching pearls when others are out there trying to do something for what they believe in.
cleek
@eemom:
deep breath. in… out…
@John X.:
i’ve read their websites and i’ve quoted their own words here. no help. i’ve asked (what seems like) a dozen times for people here to explain it. the only responses are “give them a chance” and “you don’t understand!”
well, no, i don’t understand (and i get the feeling nobody here does either).
singfoom
@Elie: The national Occupy Wallstreet donation page: http://nycga.cc/donate/
and OccupyChi’s WePay page: https://www.wepay.com/donate/165154
singfoom
@cleek:
None of that = “give them a chance” and “you don’t understand!”.
Elie
@singfoom:
thanks
wonder if something is going to happen in Seattle?
singfoom
@Elie:
Checkout http://occupytogether.org/ , that’s the national event host.
Seems like there is an event in Seattle: http://www.occupyseattle.org/
eemom
@cleek:
Fair nuff. And that is exactly what I meant by LAME.
What is the better, more coherent, non-drum-circle, positive poster child to which those things are otherwise associated?
Better yet, with what do YOU propose to positively “associate” those things?
Because obviously, right now, there IS nothing else — they’re just amorphous concepts with no rallying cry.
As so many others have said, it seems to me that anger in the streets is a good place to start building one.
eemom
@cleek:
and don’t patronize me, please.
SnarkyShark
It would appear that an actual Wall Street executive led a protest march and made a speech himself(GOS). Maybe the suits on this board can approve of it now. Susan Sarandon is expected to show up. Maybe the naysayer brigade might ease up on the hippy punching.
What is the point of the protest?
Just shining a light, letting the overlords know we have had enough, we are aware. You want bullet points and an action plan, good luck with that. That’s the way the tea party works. The left is a different animal. It’s more of a self organizing thing. Sorry to all that that kind of thing makes their head hurt.
My prediction is this will end up a bigger thing than anybody thought. And all the old squares in Western Penn will still be tut-tuting as the world passes them by.
cleek
@singfoom:
sorry, i did not see 155. it got lost in the shuffle.
ok. i’ve read their Statement. and it reads, exactly as their blogs do, as a mishmash of standard vague lefty/libertarian demands.
1-4 are, if not meaningless, basically unactionable.
5 is at least appropriate to the venue. i’d love to hear their plan.
6 ? are they going to propose a Constitutional amendment?
7 i’ll agree with that one!
8 LOL
so, Occupy Wall St has exactly one bullet point that has anything to do with Wall Street, a bunch of vague feel-good stuff, and a demand that we use free software ?
John X.
It is fascinating watching this in action. People are becoming aware of the protest and deciding to show up. They aren’t going to the websites, they’re just sending FB notices that they decided to take the day off and go help out.
Also worth noting, the rallying event seems to be the girl who got maced. That’s flying around, pissing people off and making them want to come out.
cleek
@eemom:
sorry. but you come at me with guns a-blazing, i gotta give a little back.
/peace
les
@geg6:
Sorry; to a large degree I think you and John X are talking past each other. But it’s a little rich for you to complain about a group not thinking they need you, when your initial reaction is to look down on them as dirty pot smoking drum bangers. Why would they approach you at all? Fuck, in the 60’s that attitude came from the Republican mayors of small town america and the folks who voted for them. They’d never been close enough to a hippy to know whether they were dirty or not; and they showed the same knee jerk disdain.
Elie
@cleek:
ah c’mon Cleek….
you know how this goes, right? Lots of precedent. Change sometimes starts in chaos and what is important is the energy, the hunger for standing up for something — maybe only tangentially related to the ultimate (evolving) results. Note, I do not say goal because it is premature to talk about goals in my opinion.
We are getting energy going, we are getting motivation going. That is not a structured operation by its very nature. The original Tea Party dump of tea over the side was an expression of revolt but was not the shape and coherence of the actual eventual formal Declaration of Independence by the colonies. The act of liberating the slaves was not the Civil Rights Act of 1964…
Let it be. Your point is noted: protests are not governance. Protests CAN ignite the people to get energized and motivated to make the sacrifices necessary to change government. For sure.
singfoom
@cleek: I would agree with you that that list is mushy. I take much more meaning from their statement, especially:
Now, YMMV, but to me, that says several things:
1)They are protesting against the inequality of wealth here in the US.
2)They are protesting against their political disenfranchisement. (Maybe I’m reading my own beliefs into this, totally possible, also something I think that should and does happen with these kinds of things, but to me that’s talking about the giant disconnect between non-voting corporate citizens using their outsized wallets to make our votes not even matter).
3)I infer from this statement that they are interested in retoring balance in our capitalist system (I’m sure some of them are marxists/anarchists, but this doesn’t read like it’s from them) in terms of making the field more level between capital and labor.
Like I said, YMMV, the bullet points you bring up seem to be the how of how they’re going to organize themselves, the statement more of what they’re for against.
SnarkyShark
Brilliant. There has been a paradigm shift kiddies.
El Cid
The existence of a protest or two does not inhibit other people from something such as creating their own, presumably better protest, or some other type of organizing.
It really doesn’t. There isn’t some magic power of having a protest associating some ‘hippie’ / ‘drum circle’ image to an issue which was definitely better off (under all circumstances, of course any protest can have some awful turn) with no protest going on.
The existence of this Occupy Wall Street protest in no way stops me from organizing, I dunno, a Working Peoples’ Voting Registration and Democrat Get Out the Vote March On My Local Financial District But With Much More Acceptable Middle and Working Class Clothing and Musical Choices and Haircuts.
les
@Berial:
I think you have it backwards; they’d love to have the middle class squares help, but as always the middle class squares prefer to tell people to take a bath, wear better clothes, don’t yell so much; then maybe we’ll listen. Except you don’t, in my experience.
SnarkyShark
@cleek:
Which of course in the programed “I hate Hippy ” brigade automatically shuts down all thought processes and any possible discussion. Shit is getting old. How bout you people recognize your programing and take3 steps to get rid of it, MMKay?
cleek
@Elie:
sure.
but if they’re going to do that, here, they’re going to have to get specific and simple; and they’d better get there quick. otherwise, it’s just another drum circle; and no drum circle has ever changed anything but people’s route out of the Capitol mall. “Recognizing individuals’ inherent privilege and the influence it has on all interactions” is not going to bring in the masses, and it’s not going to energize anyone.
SnarkyShark
@les:
This!
les
@geg6:
Is this serious? Remember 2008? Noticed that our politics at all levels, both parties, are driven and controlled by wealth? Comprehend that Wall Street is the primary symbol of wealth and greed? Christ, you may or may not agree with these people’s tactics, and you obviously have nothing but disdain for them personally (not that you know any of them), and you’re not about to act until asked nicely by someone in your circle; but you can’t figure out what it’s about? Fuck, next you’ll join Burnsie in demanding protests (by others) at some esoteric political junction in Washington that only he knows is significant.
El Cid
I’ve actually been in a number of marches and public gatherings / actions which really did have a mix of working class (incl. a lot of organized labor) folks, and many people of color (including African Americans, needless to say many of whom from working class communities themselves), as well as the hippie kids and their odd ways.
You know what?
They didn’t hate the hippie kids. They were glad that they were there with them. They weren’t happy about the fact that a lot of causes got attention but their own didn’t.
But they were glad that young people were getting out to try and help them, and that they cared, and what’s more, they often found their alien cultural ways to be interesting and even cute.
A lot of them remembered what it was like to have their parents think their fashions and music and hair preferences were weird, too, so for them — and I’m not reading anyone’s minds, it’s not like suddenly everyone who isn’t the stereotypical protester becomes mute and unable to converse in some degree of analysis — they noted who had turned out to help them, and which normal people didn’t.
SnarkyShark
@cleek:
Bullshit. People that put it on the line can do it anyway they want. You think you can do it better big boy then get bizy. I already told you about one protest that accomplished much that started with NO plan.
But who am I going to believe? My lying eyes and personal experince or your scholarly bleating and prognostications?
les
@burnspbesq:
God, Burns, you couldn’t be more perfect. I first heard this exact line in small town Iowa, in 1968. Yeah, you da man, you know how it’s done, and you know the only way it’s done. Amazing how we’re not in perfect shape in this country, given this level of expertise–if only those damn hippies didn’t get in your way.
Elie
@El Cid:
We have so few ways to come together anymore and re-energize — so little REAL public space and public ocassions. It is important to feel the personal energy of folks coming together if only to mix the pot… we have needed to Mix the Pot for a long long time.
El Cid
And on the drum circle thing. I can certainly air plenty of frustration about the sterility and non-usefulness of the routinized giant inscrutable indigenous people puppets at the IMF / World Bank ‘protests’.*
Things like drum circles and other entertainment have been ways of keeping up the spirits of protesters or strikers.
By the way, although most have been annoying, I’ve listened to some kick-ass drum circles, which included a lot of talented percussionists including musical students. And not just in this country. When a good groove got hit upon, people in parks stop and pay attention. And why not? It’s music, that is, when it is.
—–
(Despite my then and current rages against such silliness and even offensiveness — without evidence I imagined an indigenous Bolivian fighting against water privatization not having the greatest reaction to his / her portrayal as a 20 foot papier mache puppet — I’m pretty frustrated with the notion that a bunch of 16 to 20 year olds ought to just inherently know how to do ‘effective’ public events on these gigantic issues. How many of you do? Where were the really good older organizers and well-funded non-profit and labor groups to train and assist them?)
BrianM
@Corner Stone:
That’s really disappointed me too. The whole Obot/Firebagger conflict has taken the sparkle out of too many commentators and replaced it with snap judgments too tenaciously held. It’s bad for us.
[I’m pretty much on the Obot side, but I like the DFHs in [near] Wall Street, partly because I’ve read some of David Graeber’s anthropology on anarchist protests. This paper on giant puppets doesn’t make me like them any more, but it’s interesting to read that how they’re used for things like defusing situations that could get violent.]
John X.
El Cid,
Some of this is the old issue with ANSWER and a handful of other groups. They set the tone, because they are the ones to organize the rallies.
The reason for this is simply that they have the experience and infrastructure to successfully apply for permits, get the port-a-johns to the site and organize the buses and motel rooms. This is because they’ve been continually protesting for decades, so they’re the go-to guys to set up an event.
And while you can rail against them and their pet issues, there’s no one else doing this work. The Very Serious folks here never developed a coherent street game for political work – preferring to leave that to campaign/NGO professionals who prefer booking hotel conference rooms to street protests.
Again, the people with the criticisms never put any skin in the game. Instead, they spent decades throwing spitballs from the sidewalks.
geg6
@les:
The fucking hilarious thing is that (she says AGAIN), I’ve been one of those dirty drum bangers and it wasn’t back in the 60s (try the 70s, 80s, and the 00s). And haven’t given up the pot even. Look, I don’t give a shit how dirty, or what instruments they bring to a protest, or how much pot they smoke. But a lot of people who they could bring to their side do. And that’s the point I was trying to make. And Susan Sarandon isn’t going to make the people who make those judgements about them feel any better about supporting them, EVEN THOUGH THEY SHOULD SUPPORT THEM.
The people who could give them some legitimacy in the eyes of the general public, the media, and political elites aren’t going to be caught dead with these people. It’s not right, but that’s how it is. And cleek is not wrong about them needing to be ABOUT something. What he and I have both read, based on the movement’s own words, don’t come close to being something that working people in my part of the world (or even the vast majority of young people here) will rally around.
If this all starts to bubble out to working people and the middle class and really starts something, no one will be more surprised but happy than I am. But the fact that I’ve been written off, cleek’s been written off, and the largest group in the country have been written off by the representatives of these protesters on this blog as too conventional, too middle class, too bourgeois for their beautiful minds tells me that isn’t going to happen. And having eemom in their corner is not really helping.
les
@cleek:
Jebus, cleek, when did you become the dick with a stick up his ass? Every single person has to be washed up, buttoned down and suited to be on “your side?” You really think your goals are threatened because protesters don’t look right, or don’t articulate to your satisfaction? You can’t think of 50 reasons off the top of your head that making Wall Street uncomfortable and creating negative attention there is good? Or it’s only good if it’s for your precise reasons? I really don’t get your problem here.
eemom
@El Cid:
This summer I hear the drummming, four dead in O-hi-o….
BrianM
@Elie:
You’ve been great on this thread. Thank you.
singfoom
@geg6:
Seems like it’s pretty simple to parse what they’re about. Does it conflate a lot of specific issues? Yes.
I don’t know about you, or really any of the rest of the people on here, but I’m a middle class professional who supports the Occupy Wall Street protests, and I’m telling all of my friends and relatives about them as well.
Looking at the videos of the protest, there are the usual protest suspects, with a smattering of normal looking people. Hopefully the number of normal looking people increases. The fact that there’s a http://occupytogether.org/ national site dedicated to making this larger is indicative of more normal people getting involved.
geg6
@eemom:
Yup, that’s the words. And we see how that all turned out, don’t we? Most of those dead students weren’t even part of the protest, but got killed anyway. AND IT CHANGED NOTHING.
Sorry, but I prefer to put my energy behind things that have a reasonable expectation of success. I have yet to see a gathering of this sort accomplish anything.
Again, I’ll be surprised but happy if I’m wrong, but without someone who knows what they’re doing and how to get a majority to support them like they did in Madison and Columbus, I fear they are doomed to failure and I hope they aren’t as doomed as those kids at Kent.
les
@geg6:
Hey, they were your words, sister. And you strenuously said you wouldn’t join the rabble, because they’re rabble. You think they need people like you to look respectable and make progress? Get your ass down there, and encourage your clean respectable buddies to do the same. Or don’t, do your own thing. But you’re the one doing the mocking; I thought John X. was indulging in cheap psychology when he said the nay sayers were just ashamed of their old dfh selves. Maybe not so much.
geg6
@singfoom:
Which is what I’ve been saying all along. Apparently, there is a huge problem with reading comprehension on this blog.
eemom
@geg6:
WTF are you talking about? YOU are the one doing the writing off. The folks here are RESPONDING to YOUR attack –your arrogant disdain for and contemptuous dismissal of these protesters. Who can blame them for responding, as Dylan once did, “Please get out of the new [world] if you can’t lend a hand”?
It’s not their fault that you’ve become what you once despised.
And do please refrain from telling me what “corner” to stand in. You’ve never wanted me in yours to begin with, so for fuck’s sake don’t start now.
geg6
@les:
I never said this.
You, sir, are a liar.
les
@geg6:
My good dog. I didn’t think you were one of the “unless I get it all and pony, nothing is better.” There were no political or social changes in the US in the 60’s and 70’s. Fuck, you’re better off staying home.
eemom
“normal looking people.”
On THIS “progressive” blog, we are labeling people as NORMAL or not.
Wow.
singfoom
@geg6: Actually, harking back to last night’s thread, you called the protestors assholes and wished that Trumka et al would show up and take charge.
I haven’t written anyone off, but I will take umbrage at the protestors being mocked by people on a blog for trying to do something to affect change even if the demand list isn’t up to snuff and large numbers of DFHs are involved.
That’s my big beef.
singfoom
@eemom: Those are my words. No offense intended. I’ve been to plenty of protests and a lot of professional protesters have a certain look that doesn’t look the same as a normal middle class professional. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words, but really no malice was intended.
geg6
@eemom:
I think you need to re-read this thread. I started off with a snarky reply to someone who said that anyone who thinks this might not be the exact right way to go about things should fuck off. And then went on to explain why this is not the type of thing that the middle class and working class people who are my friends and neighbors will support. That they need to see that isn’t a rerun of the DFHs of the 60s and is about regular people. And was told they didn’t need regular people. Granted, it degenerated from there, but I really don’t see where I’ve said anything bad about the protesters other than I don’t think they are using the best tactics, how I’d join them the minute I thought they were, and how I think they could increase their support. And have been told over and over and over that me and people like me aren’t wanted.
I’m not one to go where I’m not wanted, so that’s fine. I’ll just keep doing the things that I think are important and tactically sound. And they can do theirs. And if those things converge, I’ll be happy about that, too.
Elie
@BrianM:
Thanks..
Not sure why folks still have to get after each other — Still. Like we don’t have enough negativity and strife just getting on every day. Why would I want to wound someone who I may want to stand shoulder to shoulder with? If you want to do something else, do something else. If another way is clearer, take that way. But it doesnt have to be either/or — bi-modal. Its a false choice that does not need to be made.
Hey, the sun just came out here after three days rain. Gonna go out and get a fresh breath in the sunshine. Soon enough, fall then winter are here… Same thing about this issue: can’t we enjoy the energy people bring to this? Sure enough, there is enough to mourn and be troubled about. Lets reinvigorate what it means to be human, alive and being able to stand for something..
Ciao for now…
geg6
@les:
What the fuck are you talking about?
The Kent State protests were against the bombing of Cambodia. Did Nixon stop bombing Cambodia because a bunch of innocent kids got shot by other kids? When, exactly, did the Vietnam War end? It was well after May 4, 1970, as I recall.
WaterGirl
Some folks here are letting perfect be the enemy of the good.
I’m guessing that most people on BJ are in favor of diversity. Well, diversity isn’t just about color and gender and sexual orientation [add a hundred more demographics here]. It’s also about diversity of skills. It’s about style. [and a hundred other things]
There are folks who are more comfortable with reason and logic and order and PLANNING, stuff like that. There are people who are more comfortable DOING and working out the details later. There are people who are motivated by PASSION and let the details work themselves out later. Can’t we make room for all sorts of styles in this fight against the things that have been eroding democracy in our country?
The people who ACT and people who are driven by PASSION showed up. How about giving them a chance? How about if some of the REASON and LOGIC and PLANNING folks pitch in to help?
Edit: I think maybe the folks who are motivated by OUTRAGE may soon show up, thanks to the NYPD.
cleek
@les:
about the time people started talking like this was some kind of big “international incident”, i guess.
sorry to disappoint!
sorry. no idea what you’re talking about here.
don’t think i said anything about how they look or how they articulate.
of course i can!
but is Wall St afraid of them? doesn’t look like it.
negative attention? the notion that Wall St is a problem is pretty widespread, right? even the teabaggers will admit that (if they don’t think they’re arguing with a lefty about it, of course). but what are these protesters adding to the conversation? seriously, what are they saying that everybody hasn’t already known for years?
as far as i can tell, all they’ve added is “lefties are camping out near Wall Street for vaguely leftish reasons”. even reporters on the ground there can’t figure it out. that’s my issue. instead of going there and demonstrating with a focused and deliberate purpose, they’re just being … lefties. i don’t see how that accomplishes anything.
at least, that’s what it looks like right now.
les
@geg6:
Look, your comments sure seem to me to be saying that you decided you’re not wanted, because the protestors are dirty and play drums and you haven’t gotten an engraved invitation from the Right People. I have no doubt that if you decided any attempt to draw attention to the fact that the MoU’s are still in charge and some people aren’t happy about it, and went down there, you’d be welcomed with open arms. If you have some message other than that you and your clean friends are not impressed by Those Dirty People, I don’t know what it is.
singfoom
@cleek: I’ve been trying to engage you on their statement cleek. #201 above… I think while they may conflate a lot of issues, the general thrust of the protest is pretty clear. Do you disagree?
les
@geg6:
Fuck me to tears. There were protests of all kinds, all over the country, for years, and a bunch of people got killed. No, shockingly, the war didn’t end the day after Kent State. Imagine my surprise. And the Civil Rights Act wasn’t passed after one march. And people’s attitudes and tolerances don’t change overnight. I’d have never guessed, reading your comments for some time, that you live in lala land.
WaterGirl
Excellent diary related to Occupy Wall Street is up at Booman’s place.
Corner Stone
I’m not sure why everyone’s so down on drum circles. I happen to love Taiko drums.
les
@cleek:
I don’t know, it sounds like you’re waiting for the one big perfect event to fix everything. I don’t buy it. This is another series of pictures of people pissed about an economic/political system that’s killing us. And all over people are (i) reminded of it and (ii) seeing somebody else who agrees about it. I doubt it’s particularly seen as leftist, in many cases. I don’t suggest you should go there–although every body makes a difference, especially if you think they need more clean faces–I’m just surprised at what is coming off to me as disdain and condescension, from somebody who I’d have guessed essentially agrees with the protestors. I mean, manifestos and concise position statements and all are fine, but this ain’t rocket science–a simple “these are evil fuckers and something should be done,” repeated as often as possible by as many people as possible in as many ways as possible to as many audiences as possible, is what it takes.
El Cid
@John X.: I was always pissed off hearing about how horrible ANSWER’s anti-Iraq invasion protests were because if there had been other and more out-front organizing by others, it wouldn’t have been that the ball was in their court. What the fuck did people expect would happen? That there’d be a drive towards a gigantic and calamitous war and people would politely choose instead to organize get-out-the-vote campaign for Democrats in some future election? That there weren’t a shitload of people who wanted to publicly voice / demonstrate their opposition to this imperial venture, so the ANSWER initiative was a total sneak attack? ANSWER was so significant because others weren’t there. If you think of it as sort of a free market, there was pent-up consumer demand and yet only Super Crazy Eddie II introduced a product into that category.
les
@Corner Stone:
Guilt by association with the dirt and the hips, I guess. Long ago, they had the same dislike for that awful rock and roll at protests.
cleek
@singfoom:
i’ll agree that the location and their general statement suggests a theme. they should stick with that.
@les:
agreed! i think that’s what they should be doing. ditch all that other stuff and focus!
not my protest, of course. they can do what they want.
gotta run… Wilco’s playin in a couple of hours!
El Cid
@Corner Stone: Personally I’m much more inspired by drum rhomboids, though I’m eagerly awaiting the outbreak of drum Penrose tilings.
singfoom
@El Cid: Shit, I remember that. Was ANSWER behind the world wide protest marches? I marched in that one in Chicago before the war, must have been 50-70K people, all hemmed in by a line of brute squad cops on either side and you could only enter/leave via the back…
Berial
I think a lot of the hostility against geg6 has come because people decided she called the protesters ‘assholes’, when she was actually referring to the hacker group ‘anonymous’. ‘Anonymous’ is associated with the event, (AFAIK they are the ones who initially called for it or put out the word) but the protestors themselves are not considered ‘anonymous’.
Since that initial misconception the pro-protestors/DFH/Kids group has decided that anything she said should be taken as criticism or as negatively as possible, while the anti-protestors/Squares/Old-guys think she’s talking good politics.
What’s the shame is that both groups hope something good comes from the event.
SnarkyShark
You know what ge6, I don’t think your a bad sort and people like you are needed. But I have learned that people like you can never seem to be convinced. There is always one more hoop to jump through. But there is never any give from your side. No attempt to see how lame Hippy Bashing is. No attempt to educate W Penn that the bankers are going to but rape you too so maybe they might want to ease up on the kids. Maybe you could start a crusade against shallowness starting with yourself and flowing to your uptight neighbors
And I love the way the kids best not do what you did, oh no.
Do you suppose they were just born knowing the bast way to protest and are blowing that due to self indulgence?
An we are worlds apart about anonymous posting that dicks home address and such. Never having any repercussions is old and tired and SOP. Maybe in the new way of doing things, thugs like that might finally fear some accounting.
eemom
@WaterGirl:
that’s interesting, because the other day he was totally of a mind with cleek, et al.
singfoom
@Berial: Are you sure about that?
Here’s the comment in question, #2 on the thread:
https://balloon-juice.com/2011/09/26/today-in-occupying-wall-street/#comment-2796837
The comment in question:
I see nothing about anonymous.
Corner Stone
@El Cid:
Well, clearly. But those take protestors with plans man, and as we’ve all been repeatedly told these dudes just ain’t got any, or the right kind.
Maybe I’ll start getting a little more optimistic once some bored college kids from marching band join the protest. Or maybe some bored college kids from Geometry 3359: Classical Shapes for Musical Interpretation.
Either way, as long as we get some of the right people in place.
SnarkyShark
And yes I know Anonymous ticks a lot of people off. But one thing they do not like is the powers that be telling them to behave. We need a whole lot of misbehaving and they can be counted on for that. Also you need to look into it’s organization. Sure, there’s dicks, but we got those here.
Berial
@singfoom
‘Anonymous’ was mentioned in the original post. I assumed she was talking about them, and I thought it was mentioned later in that thread, that ‘anonymous’ was who she was talking about.
I’ll let her comment on it from now on to set any record strait.
nancydarling
Thomm Hartman and Rick Perlstein discuss “learned helplessness” and other topics we are discussing here. It’s about 8 minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9rCCA1Uh-ow
singfoom
@Berial: Listen, I’m not beating up on her, but I was part of that conversation and from my point of view, she wasn’t talking about anonymous. We had a back and forth about this protest vs. Madison / DFHs vs. organized labor…
But yeah, I’m only speaking from my POV…she can certainly set any record straight….
WaterGirl
@eemom: This diary was not written by Booman, but by a new front-pager. (long-time commenter)
wrb
@geg6:
Hear hear.
I regret our failure of understanding when we were kids, of how we became the best propaganda for the other side.
The person trying to keep their home, who has to dress a certain way to hope to hold theit job, looked on and said “these are spoiled brats. I want nothing to do with them.”
They are the mirror image of the tea partiers with their misspelled signs and nuts parading around with guns.
They are just providing propaganda for the other side.
It is too bad that they are so inept, because taking serious, non-frivolous protest that appeals to those living hard lives (the kind MLK managed) to Wall Street, or better to the leafy places where these people live and vacation is exactly what is needed.
But drum circles and bare breasts?
Just manna to the enemy.
nancydarling
@wrb:
I would say the tea party has accomplished a lot more than just serving as propaganda for our side. Look at their results in Congress
There has been no equivalent on the left to hold our reps accountable. They do take us for granted, knowing we have no where else viable to go. It’s time we scared them a little.
President Obama said “Yes WE can” not “Yes I can”. We haven’t held his feet to the fire or anyone else’s for that matter. Hartman or Perlstein said in the link at 253 that if the parade gets big enough, our elected representatives will have to get in front of it and lead. Obama has definitely changed his tone in the last week or so. We can make him change even more. We have to remember though, he can’t do anything unless we have his back.
John X.
wrb,
As a card carrying member of Gen X, I think the “spoiled brats” thing is going to die with your generation.
My generation is full of tattooed, t-shirt wearing professionals, and the younger generations are even more diverse. And we certainly aren’t freaked out by white girls with dreadlocks, flamboyant gay men, black men in baggy jeans, older black men in daishikis, women with short hair and all the other strange bullshit that the boomers get so het up about.
The idea that you have to look like you came out of Sears catalog to be taken seriously is the relic of another age. We still get it in the office from our boomer bosses, but it’s not something I see many people my age internalizing. Whitebread normal is slowly dying.
singfoom
@John X.: As a tattooed, t-shirt & jeans wearing professional, I cosign this message.
Only one small difference. I get freaked out when I see 40+ white men with shorts, a belt and the T-Shirt tucked into the shorts. That shit totally freaks me out :p
wrb
John x
‘Fraid the look is very little different than that of my friends in the 70’s and of those who were twenty when I was 10.
We were it, we were cool we were educated, and we had no conception of how privileged we were.
Made us seem like aliens, contemptible aliens, to those trying to raise a family pounding nails or selling stupid insurance policies, barely hanging on, unable to imagine how someone could have the luxury to skip work and travel to attend a protest.
Within an insular self-reinforcing urban culture, such people think they are are the world.
Outside it, they are why people vote against their [supposed] interests.
Sorry.
You are the same old thing.
We invented drum circles and protest by naked breast. You are just repeating our failures, with shockingly little originality.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@wrb: But of course, if middle America decides that they’d prefer to let Wall Street continue stealing every last penny they own rather than be associated with those smelly hippies, that’s no failure at all. That’s just the natural order of things.
It is, of course, the smelly hippie’s fault for being so odd. The good, hard-working American who despises them for having weird hair or participating in drum circles or some other superficial thing is blameless.
For fuck’s sake, you honestly think that weird young people are “why people vote against their [supposed] interests”? That’s the key to it all? If those damn dirty hippies would just cut their hair the era of Wall Street oligarchy would end? You’re a fucking tool.
wrb
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Yep.
Not, when being weird on their own time, mind you, but when being so out of it, that they are aggressive, hostile, weird when supposedly trying to influence others.
It is just inept.
Self-indulgent need for validation chosen over getting stuff done.
Omnes Omnibus
I just read through this thread, and I think both camps of arguers here are acting like a bunch of assholes. For the “hippies:” there are people who sympathize with your goals and might be willing to join in, but you might have to reach out to them a little. For the “non-hippies:” Give these guys a break. Look past any tattoos and dreads. Talk them up to your co-workers and friends. Give them some help and they might be more willing to listen to your advice on how to reach others. Furthermore, get off of my lawn and stop driving at 40 mph in the left lane with your fucking blinker on. I am going to go send the hippies a pizza.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@wrb: In other words, if you have a tattoo or any hair besides a buzzcut, go back to your hovels and shut the fuck up. You have no place in American society, but as long as you remain hidden from view, we won’t use you as a scapegoat when the rest of us sit on our asses and watch reality TV while the oligarchs steal everything they can.
Fuck you.
EDIT: More to the point, if America is really a place where the sight of somebody with blue hair and a drum is all it takes to get most of the people to vote Republican, then there’s nothing to save. American society is just fucked and there’s no fix. I don’t think that’s the case. I think most Americans can handle the sight of somebody with a neck tattoo without falling to pieces.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Yeah, people can handle it, but it makes them nervous.
Christ, does everyone have to be an asshole?
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Omnes Omnibus: And voting for people who have clear plans to fuck you over because voting otherwise might vaguely associate you with an odd looking person isn’t assholish?
I’m just saying, the problem doesn’t lie with people who don’t look like they’re on their way to a cubicle job. The problem lies with those who lose their shit when they see such a person.
Omnes Omnibus
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Like I said above, both sides seem to have been acting like assholes on this thread. This kind of crap wears me out.
Corner Stone
@John X.:
High and tight baby! With a crisp white collar and navy Dockers.
Or you shouldn’t bother.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: “Both sides do it!”
singfoom
@Omnes Omnibus: Everyone’s an asshole some of the time. I guess I’m just going to be an asshole when people are mocking protesters for trying to do something to affect some change.
Corner Stone
@wrb:
This is hilarious.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: Yeah, read the rest of what I wrote.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Why? It just says more of the same. Assholes, assholes, try to bring the fogies along even though they’re being purposefully obtuse, fogies try to look past the individuality of the freakin’ over educated 20-somethings, lawn.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: Whatever.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Honestly. You can’t have really read this thread and seen cleek, geg6 and one or so others and made the decision that it was a problem laid to both sides equally.
There’s absolutely nothing that’s going to get cleek on board. geg6 has mastered the retro Queen of Self-Righteousness. She knows what’s needed.
Why are you pretending there is anything that can be done to get them to a place where this protest makes sense?
Jrod
@Omnes Omnibus: Right. One side is being an asshole by saying that anyone who doesn’t look like Ward Cleaver needs to get the fuck out of sight and let the real Americans handle things. Even though real Americans are doing jack-shit right now.
The other side is being an asshole by, uh, having tats and dreads and daring to go out in public like that.
Yup, it’s even-steven.
eemom
@Omnes Omnibus:
moi — an “asshole”?
: (
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: If you say so. I saw condescension on one side and self-righteousness on the other. YMMV.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jrod: Not remotely what I said. But, as long as we are being assholes here, fuck you.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: My mileage does vary. One side was saying, “High and tight! old school or no school!”
And the other “side” was saying, “Shit man, stuff’s happening and it’s evolving and this is how shit happens now a days! It’s these guys or no fucking body! Come on bro!”
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: That is what you said. Asshole.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: I think you are twisting what a lot of the “olds” were saying, but honestly, I don’t give enough of a shit about this particular fight to continue arguing it with you.
@Corner Stone: As you wish. With that, I will leave you in possession of the field. Shithead.
wrb
God, it is inspiring to know that there are people with the courage to wear tats.
They are saving the world, sure enough. Scaring the man.
Maybe they can braid their hair in a way that will stop climate change too.
John X.
wrb,
Actually no,
A lot of these people are part of a scene. That’s how their friends dress. That’s how they dress. It’s no big deal.
The problem is that there are still people who are freaked out by this, who think it’s some sort of rebellion or statement. That hasn’t been true for a long time.
Modern day hippies aren’t rebelling. They aren’t just being kids playing dress up like in the sixties. They are just part of the many, many different subcultures that make up America. It’s just their style.
That’s the generational difference. It’s not “youth culture” or rebellion to people under 35. They are simply living out their culture without fear or shame.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: Well if you weren’t distorting what happened here then we wouldn’t be arguing.
So I accept your unequivocal apology. Thank you.
Corner Stone
@John X.: I’m pretty sure wrb is an ESL, and learned his American idioms and history through some combination of “Happy Days” and VFW literature.
John X.
Corner Stone,
I’m just amazed that we’re having this conversation in 2011. I really shouldn’t have to explain that being in a subculture stopped being about “fuck the man” in the 1970s.
It’s just people doing what they do. They largely don’t care what the dwindling number of “normal” Americans think of them.
Hell, I’m not even sure there are that many “normal” Americans left anyway. I know that people in D.C. pretend desperately to be nothing more than khakis, polos and business skirts, but the rest of the nation is off doing their own thing for their own reasons.
Jrod
It’s not about the courage needed to get a tat or whatever. What we need is a little more courage from stuffy uptight so-called middle Americans. Not much, just enough for them to see dreadlocks without running screaming and crying to the GOP for more financial rape.
Corner Stone
@John X.:
Well, I don’t know what “normal” means, but vis a vis wrb, I wish him luck trying to identify a woman between 28 or so and 35 who does not have at least one tattoo.
It can’t be done. I’ve scoured them all. Scoured!