So tired of these people:
Rose Marie Belforti is a 57-year-old cheese maker, the elected town clerk in this sprawling Finger Lakes farming community and a self-described Bible-believing Christian. She believes that God has condemned homosexuality as a sin, so she does not want to sign same-sex marriage licenses; instead, she has arranged for a deputy to issue all marriage licenses by appointment.
But when a lesbian couple who own a farm near here showed up at the town hall last month, the women said they were unwilling to wait.
Now Ms. Belforti is at the heart of an emerging test case, as national advocacy groups look to Ledyard for an answer to how the state balances a religious freedom claim by a local official against a civil rights claim by a same-sex couple.
Ms. Belforti, represented by a Christian legal advocacy group based in Arizona, the Alliance Defense Fund, is arguing that state law requires New York to accommodate her religious beliefs.
“New York law protects my right to hold both my job and my beliefs,” she said in an interview last week, pausing briefly to collect $50 from a resident planning to take 20 loads of refuse to the town dump. “I’m not supposed to have to leave my beliefs at the door at my government job.”
She has the right to quit her job or shut up and sign the damned legal documents. I’m sure there are all sorts of brave Christians who took a stand against black people voting or mixed marriages a couple years back. The country survived.
(via)
MikeJ
Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers weren’t a couple, but legally they could have been in spite of the fact that some people think dancing is a sin.
BARRASSO
Yes but those black people chose to be black!
Mustang Bobby
“I’m not supposed to have to leave my beliefs at the door at my government job.”
Yes, you pretty much are. Or at the least not impose them on someone else.
Later in the article it says that she gets a deputy to sign the certificates. So she’s not willing to violate God’s teachings, but she’s perfectly happy to pass the abomination on to someone else. Huh?
honus
Three words: Writ of mandamus. No constitutional question at all. She can no more refuse to sign a marriage license than a county clerk could refuse to approve a properly requested concealed carry permit.
What say you Burns?
Baud
So government employees are mooches on society who deserve to have their pensions and health benefits taken away…
except when their religious beliefs prevent them from doing the work the taxpayers are paying them to do.
Got it!
beltane
Why is it that these people only find a few selected parts of the Bible to latch on to, ignoring all the rest?
Let us scroll through the Book of Leviticus and judge Ms. Belforti according to the Law contained therein. She can’t use the Christian thing as a defense to her law-breaking since Jesus himself never mentioned homosexuality.
singfoom
So, in her capacity as an Town Clerk, what does her job have to do with her religion? Oh wait, nothing, because a marriage license has dick to do with the church….
Fuck, no offense to you non-discriminatory believers out there, but it’ll be a damn good day when the majority of this country start actually dealing with the actual world and not worrying about what their imaginary sky daddy says is right and wrong and how he’ll punish you after you die if you do wrong.
Soooooo fucking tired of this bullshit.
Mnemosyne
One of these days, I’m going to get a job at a butcher shop and then announce that I’m a Jainist and can’t be expected to do any of the actual work since it would violate my religious beliefs.
Hey, if a pharmacist can do it, why can’t I?
Quaker in a Basement
“I’m not supposed to have to leave my beliefs at the door at my government job.”
I think I see your problem right there.
Nora
You have a right to whatever religious beliefs you want. You have the right to exercise those beliefs without the government interfering with them.
What you do NOT have is the right to take a job with the government that requires you to take certain actions, and then refuse to take those actions on account of your religious beliefs. The government then has a right to fire you for your willful insubordination.
Although I do like the writ of mandamus approach, too. This isn’t a discretionary job; she is required by law to sign those certificates.
Guster
She doesn’t need to give up her beliefs at all. She _definitely_ has a right to both her job and her beliefs.
But refusing to marry someone isn’t a belief. She can believe it’s wrong all she likes–just as long as she does it. Idiot.
Linnaeus
Maybe a Catholic or Quaker prison warden could refuse to carry out executions.
Oh, wait…
Bill T.
Blessed are the cheese makers, for they are full of cheese.
Does she remain silent in church, as instructed in the Bible?
Does she render unto Caesar that which is Caeser’s? Or is she an anti-tax wingnut?
Keith
I would have though (naa, not really) that the conservative position would be: do your job, and if you don’t like it, go look to the job market for one you do like.
MikeJ
Treat her like an air traffic controller.
bleh
I’m pretty sure this has already been settled as a legal matter. Pharmacists come to mind.
And the alternative should be obvious. Suppose as an EMT I believe fervently that I should not treat Republican wingnuts, because their actions are an abomination unto humanity. I could make a serious dent in the Republican voting population, especially in, say, an upstate retirement community!
Cuomo has also taken a fairly strong stand on the matter.
Frankly, I don’t think it would even merit notice, except the Mighty Wurlitzer has decided it’s the outrage du jour.
Wingnuts — like that one Star Trek alien — get their energy from anger. They must be angry at something, or someone (blacks, Latinos, and gays and Lesbians being perennial favorites). A major task of the Wurlitzer is to keep the anger juices flowing, and this is just the sort of thing they like.
It might be better if they were all lobotomized, sterilized, and put to work paving bike paths and cleaning up waterways. But then again, the Cultural Revolution didn’t turn out so well…
kdaug
@Guster: She’s got a right to her job? Come again?
greennotGreen
Okay, let’s just say for the sake of argument that homosexuality *is* a sin. Is Ms. Belforti requiring proof of perfection from all applicants for marriage licenses? Will she issue a marriage license to David and Carly even though David got where he is in the company by cheating customers and Carly never visits or talks to her parents who have trouble paying their electric bill? Is Ms. Belforti herself perfect? She who is without sin, cast the first stone.
p.a.
People just don’t understand. Allowing citizens to deny others their services based on religious belief is a jobs program. When allowed, pharmacological and health care jobs will be opened up for Jehovah’s Wittnesses, Scientologists, faith healers, and others! And what great jobs! “Sorry, I don’t believe in medication. I can’t fill that prescription. Ooh, breaktime already.” “Sorry, I don’t believe in transfusions. This tourniquet will stop the bleeding, although you may lose your leg. Did you get the plate of the car that ran the red light? No? We’ll I’m done here. Think I’ll go for a ride and run my sireeen.”
kdaug
@Bill T.: Does she vote?
Omnes Omnibus
@Guster: Bingo. Also too, mandamus.
Joel
Contrary to popular opinion, no one has the right to employment. And the conditions of employment are that you perform certain obligations in exchange for money. Failing that, you lose your employment. No rights infringed.
PurpleGirl
Does she wear clothing of mixed fibers? A nice cotton-polyester blend maybe… I’m sure she does.
I’m tired of people who pick and choose what they want to follow from either part of the Bible. Their stupid it burns.
Baud
People have a right not to be fired based on their religious beliefs that are unrelated to their ability to do their job. That’s not the case here.
Litlebritdifrnt2
@PurpleGirl:
Or eat shellfish? I am sure she piles her plate at the all you can eat seafood buffet at the weekends.
Felinious Wench
My religious beliefs dictate that working on a PC instead of a Mac is a cardinal sin. Can I tell my employer to get rid of my Dell laptop and get a MacBook Pro for me as a condition of my employment?
Ed Marshall
Rod Blagojevich doesn’t have too many great memories, but here is how he handled pharmacists who didn’t want to hand out birth control or the morning after pill: He issued an emergency order that clarified that your pharmacy will *die* if you screw around with people, give them lectures, don’t have some *really* goddamn good reason why you couldn’t fill that prescription or…your pharmacy dies. That was the end of that.
Ed Marshall
Stupid ass moderation and stupid ass me for mentioning where people buy their Rx.
AxelFoley
@honus:
EX-cellent, Smithers
beltane
@PurpleGirl: If she wears clothing made of different fibers teh Lord says she must be stoned to death as such clothing is an abomination in his eyes.
Quick, someone check out this lady’s closet.
The Spy Who Loved Me
I must be missing something, because I don’t get the uproar. All marriage licenses, for both heterosexual and homosexual couples, are issued in the same manner. You make an appointment with the deputy clerk and the deputy clerk then issues and signs the license. Everyone is treated exactly the same.
The complaining couple showed up without an appointment, and didn’t want to wait. If it had been a heterosexual couple pissed off about having to make an appointment, would this kerfuffle be in the Times? The clerk made the necessary changes to her office’s procedures to make sure that the law was followed, equally for everyone, while still holding true to her beliefs. How is this a problem?
I live in a state where same sex marriage is not legal, so it has no bearing on how our County Clerk’s office operates, and our County Clerk’s office requires making an appointment to apply for a marriage license. If you show up without an appointment, you’re SOL, and will be asked to schedule an appointment and return at a later date.
MikeJ
@Ed Marshall: Last time I’ll pimp it: try my greasemonkey script that warns you when you try to post with a mod word. Click on my name to get to the script, make sure you actually install it and don’t just download.
uila
“New York law protects my right to hold both my job and my beliefs”
“At least that’s what my Arizona lawyers tell me. Who wants some more cheese??”
Arclite
@Joel: To all the people talking about employment: I think that this woman was elected, so she can’t be fired, only voted out of office. So there’s really no remedy here except perhaps a lawsuit.
aimai
People have said all the right things but I wish to also point out that she routinely issues marriage licences to divorced people, to liars, to adulterers, to people who don’t honor their mothers and fathers, to people who swear, to people who have committed murder, and to people of other religions entirely from her own. Even believing that homosexuality is a sin doesn’t actually mandate the action she claims it does. Its not even one of the ten commandments and even if it were there is nothing in the bible that forbids such people from getting married. People getting married has nothing to do with the state of her immortal soul anymore than someone eating dinner in a restaurant down the street affects her stomach.
aimai
danimal
I work in the welfare system, and it was made crystal clear from the first day of training on that our job is to operate according to the law as it is written, no matter how stupid or immoral the law may be. Believe me, there have been plenty of stupid and immoral laws in the past 20 years.
The clerk can find another line of work if she can’t adjust.
Ed Marshall
@MikeJ:
I’ll try and remember. I’m logged in as a guest account on a linux machine. I usually run chromium (I broke flash in vanilla chrome somehow messing with it, and just gave up fixing it as a bad job). I’ll give it a shot, but I have an idea that making it work will take something more than an install.
Emma
@The Spy Who Loved Me: So, say I’m going to get married. My fiance and I arrive without an appointment. There’s no business being transacted and the clerk is just sitting there. We ask that said clerk stop twiddling his/her thumbs for five minutes and sign a form. He/she refuses because, hey, she prefers twiddling her thumbs to doing her job.
And that’s ok by you? No wonder republicans are always screaming about lazy government employees!
Arclite
@The Spy Who Loved Me: This is what I was wondering, isn’t she treating everyone equally? ALL marriage licenses are handled by the deputy, no? So gays and straights alike must make an appointment with the deputy for the license, correct? Now if they are refused an appointment because they are gay, then they have an ironclad discrimination case, but I haven’t heard that that is the case. If this goes to court, couldn’t the result be that the town clerk has leeway to perform the duties in the way he or she sees fit as long as they are in a non discriminatory manner?
All of this is irregardless of whether it’s a dickish move on her part, which I believe it is.
uila
@The Spy Who Loved Me: And what county would that be? My wife and I walked into an out-of-state clerks office with no ID and walked out with a marriage license with nothing more than a solemn oath that we were neither siblings nor first cousins. (VA is strict, ain’t it Cole??)
Tara the antisocial social worker
@The Spy Who Loved Me:
Nope. Your municipality may go by appointment only, but mine doesn’t and lots of others don’t.
Jonny Scrum-half
Actually, the law is that if an employee has a genuine religious practice that conflicts with a requirement of his/her employment, the employer has a duty to offer that employee a reasonable accommodation of the religious belief unless doing so would cause the employer undue hardship.
JD Rhoades
Don’t know what the oath says in Noo Yawk, but here in the sticks our Clerk of Court and Register of Deeds take an oath, before God, to see that the laws are faithfully executed. There’s no exception for laws she doesn’t believe in. She’s got a problem with that, she should resign or be impeached.
Think about it: if an elected Clerk of Court had a religious objection to the death penalty, could she refuse courtroom space to a capital trial?
Arclite
@Emma:
No one is saying it’s okay, we’re just saying it’s non discriminatory in it’s application, as we understand it (the news article is a bit vague). Is it stupid? Yes, and hopefully she’ll be voted out of office for taking this stand, or she’ll resign from the pressure (seems unlikely, given her stubbornness).
Ed Marshall
@uila:
I know that all my male family two generations removed all got 16 and got drivers licenses and drove from Arkansas to Mississippi to go marry whoever they were sleeping with (I’m just now working out the ages, never thought about it before!) and that was fine for them.
I was also looking through the Illinois State Code today and if you do it historically, the legislation explodes about 20 years after the state was formed. What were the laws that suddenly mushroomed there? Inheritance laws. The state was rural and you got a woman and made a family and you married her when some preacher happened to pass by for a tent revival. I guess back in traditional value days they had a pretty damn forgiving regime for blessing marriage *way* after the fact.
gex
You can continue to believe gays are going straight to hell as you issue the licenses and keep your job. Or you can refuse to do your job for which the state can fire you for failure to perform your job duties. They don’t have to fire you for your religious beliefs at all if you just refuse to do the work that the job entails.
Woodrowfan
@uila:
I thought Cole lived in West-by-God Virginia and not Virginia proper…
Arclite
BTW, The “Militantly superior in their own minds” byline absolutely applies to this post.
BonnyAnne
@p.a.:
I feel I should chime in on the “Jehovah’s Witnesses and Scientologists” front. (not that I’m either–I’m a firm and solid nothing-at-all.)
AFAIK you *absolutely cannot* get away with that in health care. (Pharmacy is a bizarre exception that every self-respecting pharmacist hates to pieces.) If a doctor doesn’t believe in a particular whatever, they don’t go into that field. And a nurse doesn’t get a say; I don’t believe the union would back them up, or their employer, or the other nurses.
I actually work with two nurses who are Jehovah’s Witnesses, so I asked their thoughts on transfusions. Answer: no problem. None at all–they’re not the one getting the transfusion. I also work with Muslim and Mennonite nurses, both of whom cover their hair and dress modestly. They don’t ask not to treat men, or for any other special favors, they say “this is part of the job, and if I don’t like it I can go work a different one.” And that’s it. Don’t want to treat black people? Hate Germans? Don’t believe in pills? OK, then–get out.
the fact that anyone even thinks of getting away with this in a government setting just boggles the mind.
uila
@Ed Marshall: Can’t argue with what works. Anyone who enters into marriage without a trial period is a damn fool.
[There’s a punchline here about those that have a trial period and get married anyway, but I’m too demoralized to type it.]
uila
@Woodrowfan: My point exactly.
MikeJ
@uila:
“I got married by a judge. I should have had a jury.”
honus
@Arclite: A public official cannot refuse to perform non-discretionary duties. Hence the definition of Writ of Mandamus.
de stijl
Finger Lakes? ;-)
Sorry for the juvenality – I’m easily amused.
ruemara
@Felinious Wench:
You tell my boss, I’ll tell yours.
Ed Marshall
Another thing I found was that Illinois used to bless marriages if they were written in the family bible. That was all the proof you needed. Did the bible belt write that out of existence? It makes me wonder if you can’t just write the thing in down in Georgia and make them write some other law to cancel out the Bible exception in the legal code. They probably got there ahead by accident by passing marriage laws defining men and women=only good marriage, but if any of them forgot someone has a test case.
The Republic of Stupidity
Robert
The problem isn’t this woman’s refusal to do the job. It’s that she is forwarding same sex couples to a government employee who does not exist in this area. There is no Deputy; it’s just her. If she doesn’t sign the form, they can’t get it signed. Hire a deputy or force her to resign.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: Mandamus is fun! And the objects of the writs often get into snits. Not that I’ve done it often.
drkrick
@The Spy Who Loved Me:
It may be legally significant that the policy of issuing licenses by appointment was new and adopted in specific response to the legalization of marriage equality. Unilateral downgrading of a public service as a passive-aggressive response to the inability to continue to discriminate is different than a long-standing policy not adopted for discriminatory reasons.
PaulW
Her job as Town Clerk should not have her personal or religious beliefs interfere with her OBLIGATED DUTIES.
What’s to stop her from say disallowing Muslims to marry because it’s an offensive religion to her? What if her political beliefs convince her to not let unregistered voters get marriage certificates (“I’m sorry honey, but until you register to vote and register as a Republican you’re just GONNA BE LIVING IN SIN LIKE THE HARLOT YOU ARE with your boyfriend…”)?
We had the same problem when pro-lifers started working their way into the pharmacy booths and then refused to sell birth control pills because it offended their religious beliefs, didn’t we?
PhoenixRising
@drkrick:
We have a winnah!
Rest of y’all hang onto your raffle tickets for the coupon on the reverse. Yes, the problem is that she made a public service more difficult for everyone to access in order to avoid doing something she found objectionable.
As we know from desegregating schools, and countless other examples, taking away the goodies– if the only alternative is for Those People to get some bites– is in fact discrimination. Whether NY law allows it? Well like my daddy used to say, “Differences of opinion make for lawsuits and horse races.”
sb
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
A few months back there was that the justice of the peace in Louisiana who wouldn’t marry mixed race couples. Wherever he is now, this woman should join him.
ericblair
The biggest thing with these kind of people is that they totally fail to realize that They. Are. The. Government. As far as they’re concerned, the Government is this scary abstract thing that’s making everyone do bad things and taking your money. They’re just doing their jobs. The teabagger brigades are full of bozos who think that the government should be abolished and work for the state DMV, because they honestly can’t see that’s what they are.
Tara the antisocial social worker
Should also add: she violated THEIR religious freedom by trying to force her religious beliefs on them.
If your religion requires you to wear a certain outfit or pray at a certain time, by all means do it, but you don’t get to force me to do it. Same principle applies here. Your religion may not allow you to marry a same-sex partner, but mine does and I’m entitled to religious freedom.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Nora:
Improved.
:)
Mike G
In a similar vein, funny story about a soldier who actually got the Army to recognize the Flying Spaghetti Monster as his official religion —
http://rockbeyondbelief.com/2011/07/22/my-atheist-flying-spaghetti-monster-military-dog-tags/
Sloegin
Bible believing Christian issuing marriage licenses; but so many kinds of biblical marriage to choose from!
1. Standard Nuclear – Genesis 2
2. Polygynous (multiple wives)- Genesis 4
3. Levirate (brother in-law to produce an heir for the dead husband) – Genesis 38
4. Slave as a piece of property in a plural marriage – Genesis 16
5. Concubine marriage – Genesis 22
6. Male soldier and female prisoner of war – Numbers 38
7. Male rapist and his victim – Deuter 21
8. Male and female slaves – Exodus 21
Clearly her religious freedom is harmed if she’s only allowed to issue the first one.
Jennyjinx
@BonnyAnne:
I don’t know if it’s national, but in Ohio doctor’s can refuse to see you and refuse to prescribe certain medicines. They’re protected under the conscience clause.
I’ve actual got personal experience with this. I know doctor’s and nurse practioners who refuse to perform certain procedures and will actually get someone else to write birth control.
I’m not arguing, by the way. Just relaying personal experience.
hamletta
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
That sentence cries out to be wrapped in a Gilbert & Sullivan number.
hamletta
@Sloegin:
That one didn’t work out so good for Katherine of Aragon.
SamR
Speaking as an employment lawyer, she is absolutely 100% wrong.
Employers are never required to accommodate religious beliefs that makes people unable to perform the duties of their job. They are required to accommodate religious beliefs if they’d make similar accommodations for non-religious reasons—so if an employer lets one employee leave early on Friday to go to his kid’s ballgame, they better let the Orthodox Jew go home early Friday to prepare for Shabbos.
But college football program would be required to accommodate the needs of an Orthodox Jew to observe Shabbos who wants to be a coach. No liquor store, state-owned or otherwise, is required to accommodate the views of a Muslim who refuses to sell liquor. Etc.
Triassic Sands
Since when did being free to believe what you want to believe become being free to deny others legal services?
Maybe it’s time to pass a law requiring everyone to take a same sex husband or wife. Then, these jerks would have something real to complain about.
Kat
Just ask her what she’d think of an elected homosexual clerk who refused to sign marriage licenses for heterosexuals due to ‘religious reasons’.
No one of importance
@Kat:
No fainting couch big enough in the world for the flowers who would be horrified by the ‘homofascists’ pulling a stunt like that.
Disassociation is their only operating mode.
Neil Morse
At my job, I have to enforce DOMA despite my deeply held belief that it’s a vile piece of unconstitutional trash legislation that discriminates against me as a gay man. Guess what, Little Miss Belforti? I suck it up and uphold the law of the land despite the rage and hurt because I, regrettably, don’t get to decide what’s constitutional and fair.
One of these days, I am going to start personally going up to every convenient Christian and justified-to-themselves Jewish wingnut and beating them about the head and shoulders with a rolled up Book of Amos.
Rihilism
@The Spy Who Loved Me:
Her stated reason for implementing the policy is to avoid doing something she finds objectionable, not to provide a fair system for everyone…
Chrisd
I am convinced that this is never really about the strength of one’s convictions, religious or otherwise, but about making oneself feel real special. The lowly cheesemaker-clerk becomes Martin Luther before the Diet of Worms, every time a queer couple graces her office. What a head rush!
And this egotism is not limited to the religious right. Back in the day, a fellow medical student proudly told me she would refuse to treat a Ku Klux Klan patient. It goes without saying she spent more time on politics than actually learning medicine.
John M. Burt
@Chrisd: Chrisd, there is a famous (I presume staged) photo of an injured man in Klan robes being tended to in a professional manner by an all-black emergency room staff.
That strikes me as by far the better way to display your values.