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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Excellent Links / Thursday Evening Open Thread

Thursday Evening Open Thread

by Anne Laurie|  September 29, 20115:58 pm| 85 Comments

This post is in: Excellent Links, Open Threads

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Quick quotes from two of my favorite daily reads. Charlie Pierce at Esquire‘s Politics Blog:

I’m not sure what the people now occupying Wall Street ultimately will accomplish, but I’m a little tired with the argument that, because we don’t know what they may or may not accomplish, the entire exercise is doomed and useless. There has to be something to be said for people who at least direct their anger at the people who deserve it…
__
For example, there is nothing that proves the essential fraudulence of the trope that the Tea Party “Movement” is some sort of spontaneous uprising, and not simply the well-funded re-branding of right-wing Republicanism aimed at a new crop of rubes, than the fact that there is little or no Tea Party presence on Wall Street. That is where the people who created the financial crisis work. That’s the scene of the crime. The wreckage of so many lives emanates from there, not from Washington. But the Tea Party is far more concerned with making sure that the Kenyan usurper in the White House gets run out of town on a rail, and the Tea Party’s heroes are roaming the landscape, talking rot, while the real villains are still yapping about how hard things are all over the place. Thank Whoever that there’s at least a few people who will stand outside of the right buildings and yell.

And Jonathan Chait at NYMag‘s Daily Intel, on “Mitt Romney’s Involuntary Political Celibacy“:

Mitt Romney keeps emphasizing his relative lack of governing experience, and in each telling his political virginity gets a bit more pure than in the last…
__
I believe Jonathan Last put it best: “Mitt Romney would have been a career politician too, if only voters would have let him.” The man lost a Senate race in 1994, eked out a win for governor in 2002, abandoned his office in 2006 when polls showed him trailing, and lost a presidential race in 2008, from which he’s been running continuously since.
__
Romney doesn’t have a political career in the same sense that William Hung doesn’t have a music career. It’s not because he’s above it.

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Previous Post: « Yellow Stripes and Dead Armadillos
Next Post: Occupy Wall Street About to Go Mainstream »

Reader Interactions

85Comments

  1. 1.

    contessakitty (AKA Karen)

    September 29, 2011 at 6:04 pm

    According to TPM, the wall street donors have abandoned Obama and flocked to Romney..

  2. 2.

    Corner Stone

    September 29, 2011 at 6:05 pm

    but I’m a little tired with the argument that, because we don’t know what they may or may not accomplish, the entire exercise is doomed and useless.

    They smell, too.

  3. 3.

    Cat Lady

    September 29, 2011 at 6:12 pm

    @contessakitty (AKA Karen):

    Wait, I keep being told he’s a corporatist sell out no better than Bush.

  4. 4.

    beltane

    September 29, 2011 at 6:13 pm

    Put that way, Mitt Romney comes across as Sarah Palin without the Miss Congeniality part.

  5. 5.

    Oscarbob

    September 29, 2011 at 6:14 pm

    Just received a phone call from the NRA. It starts out as a recording, informing me that Obama and the U.N.are about to pass a law which will totally affect American’s gun rights. Then comes an automated question asking if I agree that the U.N. should pass gun laws for America. I answered in the negative, and a live body gets on the phone, happy that I’m on the side of the NRA. When I tell him that I don’t believe that the U.N. has that kind of authority, he states that that is just what he’s been told. I’m then informed that the real problem is Obama, and that we need to insure that he is a one term president. He seems shocked when I tell him that Obama has not advocated for a single law restricting guns during his administration, and even more shocked when I tell him that the laws get made by the two houses of Congress. I turned down the discounted opportunity to join 4,000,000 patriots, but I will be receiving future e-mails from Wayne LaPierre. I was just really struck by the lack of knowledge he had about the process, and he was the phone point man.

  6. 6.

    Zifnab

    September 29, 2011 at 6:15 pm

    We’ve been asking when the torches and pitchforks were going to come out.

    Well – there you are. This is it. Torches. Pitchforks. Angry villagers. Maybe some pointed headed pundit can tell us he didn’t see it coming and doesn’t know where it came from. Guys on this blog have been predicting it since ‘effing ’04.

  7. 7.

    PurpleGirl

    September 29, 2011 at 6:16 pm

    The housing complex where I live is a non-profit co-operative corporation. There is a 9-member board of directors who are elected for 3-year terms, three members each year. The annual meeting and election is at the end of October. I recently received the statements of the residents who are running for a board seat this year.

    There are two birthers in the group. The opening paragraph from Mr. RL: “I am RL, residing in Building #1 at [address] since 2007. Seventy years ago I was born in Brooklyn, New York and as such a citizen of the United States of America by birth.” He continues on to detail a theory about current board members being in a conspiracy about what I can’t make out completely. He calls a sub-group of directors “The gang of five.”

    Also running is DK, a woman who lives in my building. I know what she thinks of President Obama — we’ve fought often about him and her beliefs. Now, she was on the board once before and quit after 3 MONTHS in a tantrum over who knows what. (That was before my moving into the complex.)

    Oh, it’s gonna be an interesting election.

  8. 8.

    beltane

    September 29, 2011 at 6:18 pm

    @Oscarbob: I received that same call on Tuesday. They’ve been pushing this UN thing for the past two years now. It must be part of Obama’s evil conspiracy to not take their guns away. He’s a crafty one, that Obama, forcing them to scare gun owners with the old UN business in order to get donations.

  9. 9.

    RossInDetroit

    September 29, 2011 at 6:19 pm

    @Oscarbob:

    He’s the phone dude. Almost certainly not a NRA employee or even a member. They farm this stuff to outcall call centers. He may have also been working several other clients’ accounts at the same time, taking calls from alternate lists as they became available. They have a script and they work it. Almost nobody does their own phone cold calling any more. The teleservices industry is so efficient they own the market.

  10. 10.

    Tom Hilton

    September 29, 2011 at 6:20 pm

    I’m a little tired with the argument that, because we don’t know what they may or may not accomplish, the entire exercise is doomed and useless.

    I haven’t been making that argument.

    I’ve been arguing that the whole exercise is doomed and useless because they have no clearly defined goals, no coherent message, no organizational structure, and no strategy for getting any closer to the goals they haven’t fully articulated. Different thing.

  11. 11.

    Uncle Clarence Thomas

    September 29, 2011 at 6:21 pm

    .
    .
    @contessakitty (AKA Karen):

    According to TPM, the wall street donors have abandoned Obama and flocked to Romney.

    Not quite. Mr. Romney now has the advantage, but President Obama is doing quite well with them himself, as he did in 2008. Fortunately, he allowed them to “earn” so much money that they can comfortably purchase both sides.
    .
    .

  12. 12.

    JPL

    September 29, 2011 at 6:24 pm

    @Oscarbob: wow.. I was hoping to get a live person but I guess since i pounded the phone and pressed two as an answer twenty plus times, they disconnected me.

  13. 13.

    RossInDetroit

    September 29, 2011 at 6:25 pm

    I’ve said it before and I’m not stopping now. Go read Charles Pierce. He’s hugely entertaining, on top of being well informed and opinionated. He’s cranked out a ton of posts at Esquire recently and plenty of them are long-term keepers.
    I particularly like this one:
    There Is No Republican Establishment Anymore

  14. 14.

    Corner Stone

    September 29, 2011 at 6:30 pm

    @Tom Hilton:

    I’ve been arguing that the whole exercise is doomed and useless because they have no clearly defined goals, no coherent message, no organizational structure, and no strategy for getting any closer to the goals they haven’t fully articulated. Different thing.

    How do you know? Are you there? What reporting are you reading that tells you this info? or first hand reporting?
    Where are you getting the info to make your conclusion?
    You’re in a vacuum and making conclusions.

  15. 15.

    Cat Lady

    September 29, 2011 at 6:31 pm

    @RossInDetroit:

    He’ll appreciate the shout out – he might even tell you in “person” since he comments here occasionally. He’s a national treasure, and we here in Boston get his thoughts on sports, also too.

  16. 16.

    AA+ Bonds

    September 29, 2011 at 6:32 pm

    It is kind of funny how the Tea Party demonstrations can be traced back directly to certain Republican PACs from Day One, and the Republicans are still tripping over each other trying to get to the party, and yet these fully bottom-up demonstrations against extremely unpopular Wall Streeters aren’t getting half the press.

    One might think that money had something to do with it!

  17. 17.

    Anoniminous

    September 29, 2011 at 6:32 pm

    @Oscarbob:

    Most likely the NRA hired a telemarketing firm and the person on the other end was reading from a script.

  18. 18.

    AA+ Bonds

    September 29, 2011 at 6:33 pm

    @Tom Hilton:

    It seems like you’d better get over there right away and help them out!

    Don’t worry about us, we’ll be fine, go go go!

  19. 19.

    singfoom

    September 29, 2011 at 6:33 pm

    @Tom Hilton:

    I’ve been arguing that the whole exercise is doomed and useless because they have no clearly defined goals, no coherent message, no organizational structure, and no strategy for getting any closer to the goals they haven’t fully articulated. Different thing.

    They have goals, they have a broad message and they do have a organizational structure. The organization structure is a general assembly. I’m sure you’ll apply the no true scotsman to the idea of a general assembly and say that that’s not an organizational structure.

    Have you watched any of their meetings? I’m curious, how are you so well informed of their lack of strategy? Been watching the GA on the livestream and strategy comes up and they all hold up their hands and say, “I got nuthing”.

    Your argument and the argument mentioned are different. Like 2% and skim milk are different. Maybe you should cut them some slack and see what happens.

    Are you against them succeeding? Do you want Wall Street to keep owning our political system? What’s the deal?

    You could start your own organized protest, with clearly defined goals and a nice organizational structure. Let me know how that goes.

  20. 20.

    AA+ Bonds

    September 29, 2011 at 6:38 pm

    I’m surprised by anyone who points out that Obama is the Democratic President We Have and we need to get behind him, and doesn’t realize that these are the Wall Street Demonstrations We Have and we need to get behind them.

  21. 21.

    RossInDetroit

    September 29, 2011 at 6:42 pm

    @Cat Lady:
    Pierce’s political writing at Esquire was top drawer last time around. I followed him around a bit (Boston.Com, I think) but I can only stand so much sports talk. I’m glad he’s addressing something that’s important to me now.
    The Left has plenty of pundits and bloggers. We need more Writers who can get their point across with passion, enthusiasm and humor.

  22. 22.

    MikeJ

    September 29, 2011 at 6:43 pm

    @Oscarbob: Congrats. They have a limited number of outbound lines, and you kept one tied up much, much longer than a hang up would. Also, the firm doing the calls is getting paid on completed calls, so when they put you through to one of the limited number of agents you not only wasted more of their time, you directly cost them more cash.

    I would love it if I could do that to them 100 times a day.

    Any time you get a call for a political issue, the more vile the caller the more time you should spend.

  23. 23.

    Cat Lady

    September 29, 2011 at 6:44 pm

    @RossInDetroit:

    Agreed. He’s the best we’ve got.

  24. 24.

    gelfling545

    September 29, 2011 at 6:45 pm

    @PurpleGirl: I did some temp work not long ago for a property manager who manages co-ops & condos exclusively. Co-op & condo boards are democracy at its absolute worst. Everybody gets to love their little bit of power.It doesn’t matter who gets voted in. They’ll all be channeling their inner dictator before long.

  25. 25.

    Linda Featheringill

    September 29, 2011 at 6:47 pm

    Why are we so cynical and pessimistic? Actually there are two really good reasons for it.

    First, many of us have tried so many times in so many ways to make the world better, and then failed so many times in so many ways to make hardly any progress at all. Eventually, we just gave up and doubted that real change was possible. Some of us have segued over to working for specific candidates and specific causes. But we’re still bitter about the failure of the Big Dream.

    Second, and this might be even more important, the people of the BJ community are having great difficulty understanding what the protestors hope to accomplish. I’m the same way. The closer I look, the more confused I get.

    HOWEVER, those dirty, smelly, boob-baring hoodlums in NYC are inspiring people all across the country to get out and stage their own protest. They are inspiring them to fight back against the One Percent.

    Perhaps I don’t need to understand. Maybe you don’t need to either. Just accept it.

    Of course, if one of these groups comes up with an agenda I like, I’ll certainly be scraping together pennies to send to them to keep them going.

  26. 26.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 29, 2011 at 6:49 pm

    @AA+ Bonds: Actually, I am entirely behind them. The fact that I might have a thought or two about how they might be more effective does not mean that I am not supportive of them.

  27. 27.

    AA+ Bonds

    September 29, 2011 at 6:49 pm

    Man, I sure am glad that the eight-hour-workday protests weren’t plagued with people wondering what the hell those crazy anarchists and Marxists “hoped to accomplish” with their “mish-mash” of “unrelated” issues.

    I hear tell they even had people out there with differing points of view on what working people should do. The horror!

  28. 28.

    AA+ Bonds

    September 29, 2011 at 6:50 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Glad we’re on the same team :)

  29. 29.

    trollhattan

    September 29, 2011 at 6:51 pm

    @gelfling545:

    No kidding! “Zis paint kolor ist nicht approved by zie Paintskolorkommittee und ist gegan das CCNRs und muss be uberpainted weiss.”

  30. 30.

    JPL

    September 29, 2011 at 6:53 pm

    Whatever happened to the good old days when we could just have an open thread without articles suggesting what we talk about. I’m going back to the Onion to see if they have any updates on the hostage crisis.
    have fun!

  31. 31.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 29, 2011 at 6:55 pm

    @AA+ Bonds: I think most people here are more or less on the team. Some, I think, are frustrated by what they perceive as these protesters not learning from the mistakes of the past. I’ll admit that I can sometimes fall into that group. The thing is, though, that frustration comes from wanting it to work and being concerned that it might not.

  32. 32.

    Corner Stone

    September 29, 2011 at 6:57 pm

    Senate Approves Controversial U.S. Attorney Nominees Recommended by Republicans

    “While none of the nominees faced major opposition on the Senate floor, five of the nominees were endorsed by Republicans, with the White House overlooking Democratic Party preferences.

    The Senate confirmed

    Robert Lee Pitman for the Western District of Texas;,
    Sarah Ruth Saldaña for the Northern District of Texas;
    John M. Bales for the Eastern District of Texas;
    Kenneth Magidson for the Southern District of Texas;
    David Barlow for the District of Utah; and
    S. Amanda Marshall for the District of Oregon

    All but Marshall were recommended to President Obama by Republican senators — much to the dismay of Democratic congressmen like Reps. Jim Matheson (D-Utah) and Lloyd Doggett (D-Texas).”

  33. 33.

    RossInDetroit

    September 29, 2011 at 6:57 pm

    It certainly helps when a protest has a goal that can be clearly defined and easily grasped. If only because most people are paying little direct attention.
    “Antiwar protest” was pretty easy to grasp. Against the Vietnam war. Got it in one.
    But a protest against a group of unnamed individuals and families that got very rich over the last 30 years is gonna be a hard sell.

  34. 34.

    JC

    September 29, 2011 at 6:58 pm

    So how can we fight the 1%, effectively? Inquiring minds want to know.

  35. 35.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 29, 2011 at 6:59 pm

    @JC: Tumbrels?

  36. 36.

    AA+ Bonds

    September 29, 2011 at 6:59 pm

    If you’re wondering what the demonstrators want:

    1) Reduce the power of Wall Street over our lives.
    2) Hold Wall Street accountable for criminal activity.
    3) Show other people in America who want the same things that there are people out there who agree with them.

    Some of them want to overthrow capitalism, and I’d imagine many people here disagree with that. Some of them want tighter controls over complex financial products and more vigorous investigation of potential fraud, and I’m sure that more people here agree with that.

    Some of them have other goals they promote, and honestly, I think a lot of them are things that everyone on this site would agree are good goals to have. They want their goals in the public eye, and this is an opportunity, in a country where the media ignores street politics.

    The only way these will “distract” from the goals outlined above is if those of us who aren’t demonstrating do a piss-poor job of explaining why the demonstrators are right about those main goals.

    All of the demonstrators have the goals outlined above. If you agree with those goals, the best thing to do is to make sure that everyone around you knows that the demonstrators are just like you and that you consider their goals to be your own.

    If you’re worried the demonstrators will look bad, try expending a little of your cache of good-looking-ness, non-hippie-ness, whatever, in their favor – in person, online, everywhere.

  37. 37.

    jeffreyw

    September 29, 2011 at 7:02 pm

    And along came a spider…

  38. 38.

    Mark S.

    September 29, 2011 at 7:04 pm

    @JC:

    Not fight each other. That would scare the living fuck out of them. That’s why they like to divide us up into races and parties so we get confused about who’s really fucking us over.

  39. 39.

    MikeJ

    September 29, 2011 at 7:06 pm

    @AA+ Bonds:

    Reduce the power of Wall Street over our lives.

    What legislation needs to be passed to make this happen?

    Hold Wall Street accountable for criminal activity.

    Here’s the US code. Name the names of the individuals who need to be prosecuted, point to the sections in the code they violated, and present the appropriate prosecutor with enough evidence that they have a reasonable shot at getting a conviction.

    Much of what happened in the markets over the last 10 years probably should have been illegal, but with the exception of Madoff type scams most of it wasn’t.

    I’m all for feel good rah rah rallies. Lets show solidarity and all that stuff. Wheee!

  40. 40.

    frapalinger

    September 29, 2011 at 7:07 pm

    How much do you guys wanna bet Greggers doesn’t even mention the wall street protests on beat the press this weekend?

  41. 41.

    AA+ Bonds

    September 29, 2011 at 7:07 pm

    In other words if anyone, Republican, Democratic, or otherwise starts jawing about their hippie-concern, ask them, “am I a hippie? Because those people out there, they’re me. I’m with them in spirit. What you say against them, you say against me. And what you say in their favor, you say in mine as well.”

  42. 42.

    RossInDetroit

    September 29, 2011 at 7:08 pm

    One thing that somewhat diminishes the impact of these protests is that pretty much anything happening on the coasts or in large cities is discounted 30% by a lot of the rest of the country. They see it’s in NYC and their eyes roll a little.
    Speaking as a Midwesterner, stuff like these protests gets taken with a grain of salt. It’s undeserved in most cases.

  43. 43.

    AA+ Bonds

    September 29, 2011 at 7:09 pm

    @MikeJ:

    See, this is where the left screws up. I’m going to reiterate the goals of the demonstrations:

    1) Reduce the power of Wall Street over our lives.
    2) Hold Wall Street accountable for criminal activity.
    3) Show other people in America who want the same things that there are people out there who agree with them.

    They’re good goals. Get behind them, or don’t. Don’t do Karl Rove’s job and start quibbling over whether the party line is sufficiently Maoist or whatever you think you’re doing here.

  44. 44.

    slightly-peeved

    September 29, 2011 at 7:14 pm

    Aren’t a whole heap of unions joining the protests? Sounds like even if they weren’t sufficiently organised, they will be getting plenty of organised support now.

    I’m with AA+ Bonds and Omnes on this; suggestions for how the protesters can get their message out are useful, but the US Democratic party and the left of US politics should pay a bit more attention to Reagan’s 11th commandment. Solidarity is traditionally a thing of the left, don’t you know.

  45. 45.

    patroclus

    September 29, 2011 at 7:15 pm

    As far as I know, the constant and incessant rumors that Craig James killed 5 hookers while at SMU are not true.

  46. 46.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 29, 2011 at 7:16 pm

    @MikeJ: You know, you are demanding a degree of specificity that is almost silly. If AA+ Bonds had said they are demanding that Congress amend Section Such and Such of Title Whatever of the US Code, my guess is that you would have said that they were not suggesting broad enough goals for a large number of people to get behind.

  47. 47.

    AA+ Bonds

    September 29, 2011 at 7:16 pm

    @RossInDetroit:

    All the more reason for you to tell Midwesterners that you’re behind the demonstrations. That’s what I mean: humanize it for them. Don’t make it about NYC, make it about you, the person in front of them.

  48. 48.

    Tom Hilton

    September 29, 2011 at 7:17 pm

    @Corner Stone: I’m basing my assessment on what participants and supporters are telling us. If that doesn’t fairly represent the effort, then that’s an enormous messaging fail.

    @singfoom: Okay, let me amend that: no functional organizational structure. General assembly? Good lord…

    Okay, you have “goals” and a “broad message”. Can you (or anyone) outline a plausible, concrete, step-by-step path (where one of the steps isn’t “2. ???”) from here to the “goals”? And having done that, can you (or anyone) show how every action by the protestors fits into a strategic framework, how everything they do moves us in a practical, tangible way further along that path toward your “goals”? Because if you (or the “organizers”) can’t do both of those things, then the whole thing is a waste of effort.

    Look, I don’t enjoy pissing all over wide-eyed youthful naivete. Okay, that’s not true; I do enjoy it. A lot. But that’s beside the point. The reason I come down so hard on this particular “movement” is that it embodies so many of the most self-defeating traits on the left: the embrace of self-expression as a proxy for political action; the absence of solid strategic, pratcical planning; the assumption of the obvious rightness of their cause; the lack of organizational discipline. I’ve been around for a good half a century for almost that whole time the overwhelming majority of left/liberal grassroots actions have been crippled by one or more (usually several) of those traits.

    Which, by the way, is why the discipline and organization and strategic thought behind the Wisconsin protests came as such a refreshing change. Study them in depth. Study the civil rights movement–not the myths of the movement, but the movement itself, in all its day-to-day practical reality. Learn from them, instead of believing that suddenly the very things lefties have been trying and failing with for nearly 50 years will miraculously succeed.

    If results matter, then pragmatism is a moral imperative and idealism is morally indefensible.

  49. 49.

    Martin

    September 29, 2011 at 7:22 pm

    They’re not like you and me:

    Hoping to tie Whitman’s pay to performance, the company is emulating former chief Steve Jobs’ model and paying her a base $1 per year. While she will get a company-standard $2.4 million bonus every year, her real pay will depend on how much HP’s share value has grown over time.

    Company-standard $2.4M bonus, but that’s not her real pay.

  50. 50.

    jaywillie

    September 29, 2011 at 7:23 pm

    @Zifnab: Really? Did something like this break out in NY: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGYMpv0qRBI

  51. 51.

    doofus

    September 29, 2011 at 7:23 pm

    @AA+ Bonds: That is an argument I can easily agree with. No more concern will come from this troll (not that I ever post that much though).

  52. 52.

    RossInDetroit

    September 29, 2011 at 7:23 pm

    Here’s a good start. The Yes Men are on the job:
    Occupy Wall Street Journal

  53. 53.

    joes527

    September 29, 2011 at 7:25 pm

    @gelfling545: I was on the neighbourhood association board a few years ago. (we keep the rates down by running it ourselves instead of farming it out to a management company) Yeah, power corrupts, and a little bit of power seems to corrupt the most of all. The rest of the board was shocked SHOCKED! that I sided with the guy who wanted to paint his house blue.* They looked at me funny the rest of the time whenever a request came up that they knew they were going to deny. I couldn’t get out of there fast enough.

    * The standing rule in my neighbourhood is that you can paint your house just about any shade of brown that you want.

  54. 54.

    Reality Check

    September 29, 2011 at 7:27 pm

    Take it to Teh Streetz, MAAAAHN!

    Fucking losers. 1968 called and wants it’s aging, senile Baby Boomers back.

  55. 55.

    Bruce S

    September 29, 2011 at 7:30 pm

    Rand Paul brings on the Tea Party Crazy, blocking oil and gas pipeline safety regs on “principle”:

    http://titanicsailsatdawn.blogspot.com/2011/09/where-tea-party-has-taken-us.html

  56. 56.

    Corner Stone

    September 29, 2011 at 7:30 pm

    @Tom Hilton:

    I’m basing my assessment on what participants and supporters are telling us.

    Where? because I highly doubt you could read handsmile or singfoom just here at BJ and come to the conclusions you have reached. And just browsing the three main sites for this protest it takes roughly 20 seconds to get a feel for what they want, and are up to.

  57. 57.

    Calouste

    September 29, 2011 at 7:31 pm

    @Martin:

    Does that mean she has to pay HP if the share price continues its slide? That might turn out to be more expensive than running for governor.

  58. 58.

    Linda Featheringill

    September 29, 2011 at 7:31 pm

    @Zifnab:

    We’ve been asking when the torches and pitchforks were going to come out.

    You might be right. They might be out there brandishing their pitchforks. I can truly understand that.

  59. 59.

    B W Smith

    September 29, 2011 at 7:32 pm

    As I said the other evening, my son and his friends have gone up for a few days. They will leave on Saturday evening to return home because a couple in the group took time off work to go. He called a while ago to let me know he is well and not in jail. He reports that during the day there is a mix from all walks of life. He’s met mostly hippies, a few union construction guys, some office and restaurant workers, some struggling actors, and a few guys in suits. As an interesting aside, he said some of the hippies were wary of the guys in suits, thought they might be plants. I guess assumptions about appearance work both ways. He said late in the evening it turns into Bonnaroo without the bands. He said he hasn’t seen a lot of obvious police harassment but that are a lot of plain clothes folks with communication equipment. I asked him about the goals of the protesters he has talked with and he says the goals vary but the biggest thing he’s heard is real animosity toward Wall Streets’ role in government, not individual lives. I’ll update again if he calls back.

  60. 60.

    cathyx

    September 29, 2011 at 7:33 pm

    The protesters are getting their message out by just being on Wall Street. Anyone who wonders “why Wall Street?” will get the answer that Wall Street has taken over America and people are upset by that. That message is getting out loud and clear.

  61. 61.

    piratedan

    September 29, 2011 at 7:33 pm

    It’s kinda quaint that people seem to think that the banksters only buy one brand of politician alone and it’s equally ironic that they can continue to invest against their own self interests, but I guess that’s a luxury you can afford when you control most of the money.

  62. 62.

    Reality Check

    September 29, 2011 at 7:34 pm

    Obama down to 39% today. How long until I get to call you guys the “33%ers”?

    Meanwhile, my candidate is in the Catbird’s seat.

  63. 63.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 29, 2011 at 7:35 pm

    @Linda Featheringill: Has anyone seen AsiangrrlMN recently?

  64. 64.

    Linda Featheringill

    September 29, 2011 at 7:36 pm

    @B W Smith:

    Thanks. Very helpful!

  65. 65.

    Linda Featheringill

    September 29, 2011 at 7:38 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    AsiangrrlMN

    No. Neither hair nor hide.

    Hope she’s okay.

  66. 66.

    contessakitty (AKA Karen)

    September 29, 2011 at 7:44 pm

    @RossInDetroit:

    They see it’s in NYC and their eyes roll a little.

    Or a lot. People protest in NY all the time, for a variety of things and it’s commonplace.

    I think that’s why the protestors in Wisconsin and Michigan got people’s attention, protesting there is not as common and more people could identify with it. It’s not “those NY liberals” it’s people like they are.

  67. 67.

    Omnes Omnibus

    September 29, 2011 at 7:45 pm

    @Linda Featheringill: I was just asking because of the pitchforks and her obsession with the rusty ones. She has been around and she blogs over at ABL’s place.

  68. 68.

    singfoom

    September 29, 2011 at 8:06 pm

    @Tom Hilton: Fair enough. I can understand having seen failure so many times and looking at this through that lens, you’d piss on this movement too.

    Your amendment to a functional organizational structure, as I suspected it would be, ends up being a no true scotsman.

    Give them a break and see what happens. If it fails, go ahead, piss all over it. Until then, you might consider withholding your glee at pissing on their naivete until after they’ve categorically failed.

    Also, since there has been news today that multiple unions are going to join the protest this Saturday, perhaps this disorganized bunch of young people have already ended up doing something good and bringing more people to their cause.

    I’m just really tired of people pissing on them before it’s over.

    Cheers.

  69. 69.

    cckids

    September 29, 2011 at 8:12 pm

    @Oscarbob: The UN conspiracy theory I’m always fighting revolves around some children’s rights proclamation they have made or are going to make; you know, children shouldn’t be forced into slave labor, shouldn’t be sold into sexual slavery/marriage, should have the opportunity for an education,. . . pretty bland, “who argues with that” stuff.

    But of course someone has a problem with it.

    Because I homeschool my kids (yes, we liberals do it too), I get regular emails from the state homeschool group. They are good at informing about state laws, deadlines, etc., but there is a strong undercurrent of tehadism running there. And the UN Convention on Children’s rights is, apparently, an offense against all parent-types in the USA. Because, don’t you know that if the UN passes something, it automatically becomes THE LAW OF THE LAND here & everywhere? We, as parents, won’t be able to KEEP our children, much less homeschool them. Govt run cooperatives will raise all children & force them to gay marry, or whatever the outrage of their day is.

    The depth of cluelessness paralleled with a freaky imagination never fails to astound & amuse me. I have given up on trying to win these people over to common sense; I just post one-sentence ripostes & bug out.

    Talk about being dismayed for the future.

  70. 70.

    pete

    September 29, 2011 at 8:15 pm

    @Tom Hilton: “Study the civil rights movement” — You are aware, I hope, that the Freedom Riders were very controversial in the movement when they started, and it was only after they began their efforts, and then were supported by some spontaneous students, that the mainstream civil rights movement got behind the effort.

    Sometimes action does actually create more action, with better defined goals. Kvetching never does.

  71. 71.

    cckids

    September 29, 2011 at 8:17 pm

    @jeffreyw: holy f*ck! Is that as big as it looks?

  72. 72.

    Cain

    September 29, 2011 at 8:32 pm

    @PurpleGirl: @PurpleGirl:

    There are two birthers in the group. The opening paragraph from Mr. RL: “I am RL, residing in Building #1 at [address] since 2007. Seventy years ago I was born in Brooklyn, New York and as such a citizen of the United States of America by birth.” He continues on to detail a theory about current board members being in a conspiracy about what I c

    we got a tea party guy who was running for our HOA. The guy wanted to cut everything including a block party for the kids. It is a well to do neighborhood, Simi was pleased that he has not been elected twice now. I think people are sick of these people here.

    (houses here are around 450 to 1million) these guys are totally upper upper middle class.

  73. 73.

    Cain

    September 29, 2011 at 8:36 pm

    @gelfling545: @gelfling545:

    @PurpleGirl: I did some temp work not long ago for a property manager who manages co-ops & condos exclusively. Co-op & condo boards are democracy at its absolute worst. Everybody gets to love their little bit of power.It doesn’t matter who gets voted in. They’ll all be channeling their inner dictator before long.

    I think there are several Fraser episodes that make fun of this. They are quite funny!

  74. 74.

    VidaLoca

    September 29, 2011 at 8:42 pm

    @Tom Hilton:

    The reason I come down so hard on this particular “movement” is that it embodies so many of the most self-defeating traits on the left: the embrace of self-expression as a proxy for political action; the absence of solid strategic, pratcical planning; the assumption of the obvious rightness of their cause; the lack of organizational discipline. I’ve been around for a good half a century for almost that whole time the overwhelming majority of left/liberal grassroots actions have been crippled by one or more (usually several) of those traits.

    OK, agreed.

    Which, by the way, is why the discipline and organization and strategic thought behind the Wisconsin protests came as such a refreshing change. Study them in depth.

    I think you’re making too much of a fetish of the “discipline and organization and strategic thought”. In the first few days the protests here were lacking in all of those things. That changed a lot in a hurry but it didn’t change enough, and it’s arguably one of the reasons we only won two of the three seats we needed in the recall elections in August. Now we’re trying to fix that problem, but let’s be honest: we were in many ways caught flat-footed in February, and we were making up the response as we went along.

    Study the civil rights movement—not the myths of the movement, but the movement itself, in all its day-to-day practical reality. Learn from them, instead of believing that suddenly the very things lefties have been trying and failing with for nearly 50 years will miraculously succeed.

    So let’s say hypothetically that you’re completely correct and the Wall St. protests goes on for another week or 10 days and then dies a quiet death, just like thousands of protests before it. That’s still only a failure on the tactical and organizational level, it doesn’t undercut the justice of the protest’s demands (vague and amorphous though they may be) or the courage that it takes to go out there and advocate for them.

    Look, I don’t enjoy pissing all over wide-eyed youthful naivete. Okay, that’s not true; I do enjoy it. A lot.

    Evidently. Damn kids, get off my lawn! Really, what’s the worst thing that can happen from this? So it’s not some kind of a revolutionary precursor, so it’s not the single spark that starts a prairie fire, so what? That’s only a problem for people who believed that it could be those things (evidently you’re not one of them, nor am I). On those terms it would be a failure, but I don’t see how it is on any other.

  75. 75.

    Jenny

    September 29, 2011 at 8:49 pm

    That’s interesting about Mitt would have lost he ran again in 2006.

    In fact, he’s lucky he was elected in 2002, he only received 49.77% of the vote in a mini-republican-wave election cycle, after vastly outspending his opponent, who was a woman (Mass has a terrible bias against women pols).

  76. 76.

    PurpleGirl

    September 29, 2011 at 8:55 pm

    @gelfling545: Yes, I’ve seen that in the 10 years I’ve lived here. The complex was built (starting) in 1958 and first occupancy occurred in 1963. During the early years, the complex managed itself but there were a number of fraud problems and embezzlement and NYC and NYS required us to get outside managers to avoid bankruptcy. (The non-profit status entails abatements on real estate taxes.)

    I began to see the little dictators almost right away.

    @Cain: One of my neighbors told me that we really should make sure people are moral enough to get an apartment in the complex. Really, and how do we do that? ETA: Not being a church-goer, I probably wouldn’t have been moral enough for her.

  77. 77.

    jibeaux

    September 29, 2011 at 9:17 pm

    @Linda Featheringill: She was on the FB saying she was cleaning and to chastise her if you saw her on the FB. :)

  78. 78.

    jibeaux

    September 29, 2011 at 9:20 pm

    Oh, she’s on the facebook again. Maybe she’ll be here soon.

  79. 79.

    Corner Stone

    September 29, 2011 at 9:21 pm

    @Tom Hilton:

    Study the civil rights movement

    Hmmm, the monastery. Go to the protest monastery.

  80. 80.

    jibeaux

    September 29, 2011 at 9:23 pm

    @Jenny: I hope they get over that, because my girl Ms. Thang Warren needs to go places.

  81. 81.

    Perfect Tommy

    September 29, 2011 at 10:07 pm

    Omar teaching Biology : )
    Ya feel me?

  82. 82.

    asiangrrlMN

    September 29, 2011 at 11:46 pm

    @Omnes Omnibus: If SOME PEOPLE would check their FB walls….sheesh. I’m around, but laying low. Cleaning, too. Parental (father) visit tomorrow, and not happy about it. I heard my name was being taken in vain, though, so I thought I’d drop in. How you be? By the way, I do not have an obsession with rusty pitchforks–they are just handy poking tools. I do have an obsession with Alan Rickman, though.

    @Linda Featheringill: Hey! ::Waves:: I’m all right. I do have my rusty pitchforks at the ready, though.

    ETA: Really, FYWP, asterisks no longer mean bolded.

  83. 83.

    Paul in KY

    September 30, 2011 at 9:09 am

    @Oscarbob: He was probably just acting clueless.

  84. 84.

    Paul in KY

    September 30, 2011 at 9:14 am

    @patroclus: He was pissed that he has to share backfield duties with that piker Eric Whatisname.

  85. 85.

    Paul in KY

    September 30, 2011 at 9:17 am

    @asiangrrlMN: Great to see you’re still alive. Happy cleaning!

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