Note: This post was previously published without comments being enabled. I have rescheduled to 6pm so you all have your chance to scream and throw things.
I do love Michelangelo Signorile, perhaps most because he manages to be civil with people who would reduce me to a spluttering bundle of rage and/or have me breaking out the Ex-lax, and he therefore has the opportunity to slip in the knife so politely that I suspect many of his interviewees don’t realize how badly they have been cut until a long time afterwards.
I’ll let Michelangelo tell you the tale:
Today I interviewed North Carolina GOP state Sen. James Forrester (below is full audio, as well as a video clip), who sponsored a bill that put a measure on the ballot in that state for May that if passed would ban marriage for gays and lesbian in the state constitution. Forrester, who is also a doctor, had made outrageous, defamatory claims in a town hall weeks ago, saying that gay people die 20 years earlier than other people because of their supposed “lifestyle.”
This interview has to be heard to be believed: Forrester not only could not back up his claims with any evidence — after first trying to source the Centers for Disease Control, only to be debunked by me — but he actually acknowledged that he could be wrong. He eventually credited a Christian activist named Frank Turek (who is associated with Maggie Gallagher and the National Organization for Marriage) as his source of this bogus public health information. Forrester had said in his town hall some of his patients were gay men who died early deaths, yet didn’t seem to know anything about public health, including that, on a global level, AIDS drastically affects heterosexuals more than gay men. Later, he couldn’t answer why he wasn’t proposing a divorce ban if his goal is to save marriage, and couldn’t explain why gays harm marriage. He accused me at that point of trying to “trip” him up, after I asked some basic questions, and even said he wasn’t going to answer any more questions — though he stayed on the line when I said it would be cowardly of him to leave.
“Well, I want to thank you for speaking to me. I’m sorry that you couldn’t answer the questions. I think it speaks to your own lack of education about this and your lack of answers, which is pretty appalling for a legislator, and I think the entire country is now seeing you embarrass yourself and embarrass the state of North Carolina. Thankyou for coming on today.”
These people are appalling.
They make up lies and evasions to support their bigotry, about the supposed sanctity of marriage and how the gays would put sticky fingerprints and diseases all over it (and probably store dildos in it), because deep in their lizard brains they are clever enough to know that just shouting “adam and steve, queers are evil with the buttsex and the gerbils” doesn’t cut it any more with that part of the population who have functioning grey matter above the level of their brain stem.
Fortunately, because they are stupid and because they come from a universe where stupid things are accepted as correct simply because they are said by a preacher or a doctor or a President-who-isn’t-black, they’re incapable of coming up with arguments that are even superficially convincing, or even making up some credible-sounding evidence, so as soon as they get exposed to an interviewer with any skill (like Signorile or, god help me, the women on the View), they simply repeat their new lines over and over, scuttle around for a while like bugs on an overturned log, and make a nice squishy noise when they get stomped on.
Then they scream that they were set up and that it’s unfair to question their faith.
Speaking of smug, chinless fatties in frocks, remember Archbishop Dolan of New York?
He’s the one who said that the movement towards gay marriage was Orwellian and like something from North Korea, who trumpeted his commitment to social justice while giving Congressman Paul Ryan a sensual massage with scented oils and semi-optional tongue bath:
Thus I commend your letter’s attention to the important values of fiscal responsibility; sensitivity to the foundational role of the family; the primacy of the dignity of the human person and the protection of all human life; a concrete solicitude for the poor and the vulnerable, especially those who are hungry and homeless, without work or in poverty; and putting into practice the principles of solidarity and subsidiarity, here at home and internationally within the context of a commitment to the common good shared by government and other mediating institutions alike.
The Archbishop now has on his sad face. He’s sad because that nice President Obama, despite being a good Christian and not wanting to destroy the nuclear fammily, apparently thinks that anti-gay bigots are prejudiced or biased or even racist, or some such shit.
So saddened is the Archbishop that he’s written a letter to the President. (That link is to a pdf download).
The institution of marriage is built on this truth, which goes to the core of what the Catholic Bishops of the United States, and the millions of citizens who stand with us on this issue, want for all children and for the common good of society. That is why it is particularly upsetting, Mr. President, when your Administration, through the various court documents, pronouncements and policies identified in the attached analysis, attributes to those who support DOMA a motivation rooted in prejudice and bias. It is especially wrong and unfair to equate opposition to redefining marriage with either intentional or willfully ignorant racial discrimination, as your Administration insists on doing.
Mr. President, I respectfully urge you to push the reset button on your Administration‟s approach to DOMA. Our federal government should not be presuming ill intent or moral blindness on the part of the overwhelming majority of its citizens, millions of whom have gone to the polls to directly support DOMAs in their states and have thereby endorsed marriage as the union of man and woman. Nor should a policy disagreement over the meaning of marriage be treated by federal officials as a federal offense— but this will happen if the Justice Department‟s latest constitutional theory prevails in court. The Administration‟s failure to change course on this matter will, as the attached analysis indicates, precipitate a national conflict between Church and State of enormous proportions and to the detriment of both institutions.
Dolan helpfully attaches a cheat sheet of threats to marriage which concludes with this:
In particular, the Administration’s efforts to change the law—in all three branches of the federal government—so that support for authentic marriage is treated as an instance of “sexual orientation discrimination,” will threaten to spawn a wide range of legal sanctions against individuals and institutions within the Catholic community, and in many others as well. Based on the experience of religious entities under some state and local governments already, we would expect that, if the Administration succeeds, we would face lawsuits for supposed “discrimination” in all the areas where the Church operates in service to the common good, and where civil rights laws apply—such as employment, housing, education, and adoption services, to name just a few.
Even if religious entities prevail in such cases, we will face an additional layer of government punishments, such as the cessation of long-standing and successful contracts for the provision of social services, and other forms of withdrawn government cooperation. Society will suffer when religious entities are compelled to remove themselves from the social service network due to their duty to maintain their institutional integrity and not compromise on basic moral principles.
Thus, the comprehensive efforts of the federal government—using its formidable moral, economic, and coercive power—to enforce its new legal definition of “marriage” against a resistant Church would, if not reversed, precipitate a systemic national conflict between Church and State, harming both institutions, as well as our Nation as a whole. [Emphasis added]
In other words, stop calling us bigots just because we act like bigots, because if you do that we’re going to have to stop looking after the poor and spend the money on defending our bigotry instead.
It’s nice to see that the Catholic Church hierarchy’s commitment to combating poverty and serving the needy is not as important as defending its right to pick on the queers, and that the right to pick on the queers is worth threatening both to go to war with the government and to damage their country.
Now we can comment. Thanks for writing this, Sarah!
Sarah Proud and Tall
Thankyou dear. I’m still trying to work out how I turned the damn comments off… FYWP.
My apologies to those who wanted to comment when this was first posted. I know it’s a bit late, but feel free to flame me or praise me as you wish.
Too Many Jimpersons (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
Sounds like what Rick Perry does a lot. Dude couldn’t answer a question his way out of a wet papaer bag…
Fix’t for the entire GOP.
Good for him. No way I could talk to these asshats without reaching through the whatever and throttling them.
Thanks. Good post. I can’t believe I am still a member of this church…although I’m sure most of the hierarchy would be very happy to see me and folks like me leave.
I’m not cleaning up the mess.
Sarah Proud and Tall
OT: All of you aging lefties, check out
They do have some technical problems but it will still do your old heart good.
Okay, back to the program. :-)
Sarah Proud and Tall
I don’t think they want you to leave. I think they want you to do what you are told.
I know a lot of Catholics and the vast majority of them (including many priests and nuns) look at much of what the leaders of their church say about contraception and abortion and gay rights and simply ignore it, and just get on with doing good works.
It’s a very odd situation – Catholics in the developing world sticking to dogma under the fear of hell, while in extremely Catholic countries like Spain and Brazil and Portugal, the Catholic church is losing (or has lost) its moral (if not social (as in “what we do on Sunday morning to see our friends”)) authority. Portugal legalized gay marriage despite the bishops screaming their heads off. Spain and Brazil were much the same.
One day it will just be the Pope standing in the Vatican ranting at a group of cardinals who keep telling him it’s all ok.
That’s my own look-out. And my damned sense of responsibility. It’s why I’ll take a case that has been completely FUBARed and work it out until it’s correct. That’s not your fault. Mess away.
I must say, before today I never heard of Michelangelo Signorile. My great loss, he’s terrific. Might be worth getting Sirius XM just to be able to hear his show.
Has anybody else noticed that there seems to be a disproportionately large number of medical types in state legislatures and governorships and Congress? I’m including dentists and veterinarians and so on: health care professionals write large. They are almost always Republicans, if not outright Teabaggers (I’m obviously excepting, say, Howard Dean) and they always seem to be in violation of the most basic tenets of their profession, at least in their scorn for facts and science and that stuff. Or using their facts and science inappropriately to craft bad policy.
Re Signorile’s interview: The Palin Rule states that any question can be declared an unfair “gotcha” question, exposing the lamestream media for what it is, i.e., lame and … stream. Whatever. Gays. Taxes.
I’m a practicing Catholic, and I think Tim Dolan is a jerk. My church does not get to decide what is “authentic marriage” in a secular, civil society. Nor does anyone else’s church, or any other religious institution.
Those days are gone. Unmourned. Bye-bye!
Great post and great rant!
The reason these asshats get a free pass is because the MSM NEVER EVER asks hard questions or ridicules these liars, especially if their ignorance is “faith based.” Religion can never be questioned. If you invoke God, you can say anything and get away with it.
That should have said, “Health care professionals WRIT large,” not “write large.” Stupid auto spell correct and stupid FYWP for not letting me scroll to the part of my comment that needed editing.
@Linda Featheringill: This generation’s Woodstock, I’ll bet. Twenty years from now, one million folks will claim to have been there. Heh.
Makes me proud.
BTW, police are arresting folks stuck on the Brooklyn Bridge. Estimated 6,000 to arrest. Wonder if the city should pass a special tax on Wall Street for all the police protection they are requiring? Heh.
I forgot what I wanted to say.
Early evening entertainment.
Obama addresses teh gays tonight at the Human Rights Campaign.
It’s scheduled for 7:15 eastern time.
You can watch it live at http://www.hrc.org/apps/obama/
@SiubhanDuinne: It rather explains why our health care system is in shambles, though.
@gnomedad: What, what?
I call that a senior moment. And I experience it more than I would like to admit.
Sorry to interrupt the thread with OT stuff, Sarah, but does anyone know if handsmile went down to Liberty Square today and will he be reporting to us? Actually it’s not so OT because your post about the dr/rep interview is cut from the same cloth as the NYC Wall Street occupation.
I wish I could say I am shocked by Forrester’s ignorance and bigotry, but after observing the Arkansas lege for 5 years, nothing surprises me.
Mr Stagger Lee
I bet Sen Forrester, has a young Tar Heel or Wolfpack stud, who carries his luggage, or has his version of Lafayette, who supplies him pleasure. Where did he get his degree from?
Did he skipped the medical part at Medical school? Signorile is playing him like a cat does with a mouse.
Practicing Catholic for gay marriage, here. Catholics aren’t supposed to go around attacking people’s beliefs because they don’t line up with our own. And going further for myself, God made gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered people. If everyone is made in God’s image, then everyone is made in God’s image. Let everyone love whoever they want to so long as they aren’t actually causing harm to other people. Don’t kill, don’t steal (property, children, or people in relationships), and don’t treat everyone else like garbage.
It’s a mess right now. The protesters headed for Brooklyn a few hours ago and trouble broke out. Police are involved. I know people 15+ blocks away who could hear the protesters screaming while they marched for the bridge.
Yes, indeed, explains a lot.
Supposedly dozens more arrested.
@Corner Stone: Hmm, my brother’s in Brooklyn, wonder if he’s there.
Wow. That is one of the greatest intellectual beatdowns of a wingnut I have ever seen. Is there anyone at all in the MSM who can go into an interview with the kind of overwhelming command of fact and reason Signorile displays here? Tremendous performance.
Mike in NC
A poll published today reported that 56% of NC residents were OK with the gay marriage thing, which must mean the GOP politicians in Raleigh will double down on the crazy.
OT. but that scope? A real Red Riding Hood special, no?
The far better to see you with my dear.
What strikes me as odd is the need for a politician like this to use science or ethical arguments as justification for his assertions. What the legislator wants to say is: “My God told me this is bad (or at least that’s what I’m interpreting He’s saying”. So why does this guy need science; he wouldn’t believe if it offered contrary evidence? His fellow believers don’t need it. Is he doing this because he has to have the veneer of objectivity in his job? Or is he trying to corral the constituents on the edge?
The Archbishop is merely creating morality derived from belief. “My God told me so; so He gives me the First Principle. I derive a set of ethics based on His opinion.” Problem is, destroy the First Principle upon which the ethics is based and everything else falls apart.
And lawsuits against the Catholic Church? Give me a break. I guess the sue-ers would have to get in line.
I wonder what he thinks of protestants who get married without benefit of teh one true church.
If he wants to say that they’re spitting in God’s eye for refusing to be Catholic, I have no problem with that, as long as he doesn’t try to tell the government that they shouldn’t legally recognize them.
Too often the anti marriage people try to conflate their right to be assholes getting the government to enshrine their bigotry.
TPM reporting on OccupyWallStreet.
There are tons of Creationist doctors. It’s not really against the basics of their profession any more than it’s against the basics of the engineering profession – it makes them more stupid than they should be, sure, but they don’t see it as their role to understand why medicine works, just that they practice it well (and yeah, I realize the problems there if one bothers to think more than they do about it).
Republicans continue to benefit from the error of conflation, so it’s always worthwhile to reiterate: doctors are not scientists.
As far as this bullshit goes about Deadly Gays, though, that part signals an incredible breach of professional ethics and honesty that itself may get people killed.
For those who don’t remember, Signorile was the guy who outed Andrew Sullivan’s soliciting unsafe sex after having publicly lectured gays for having unsafe sex.
@Mike in NC:
It’s more complicated than that. People in NC are split almost evenly on gay marriage, for sure, but most polls show a majority are in favor of some sort of civil union or other recognition of gay couples. This amendment explicitly bans that possibility at the level of the state constitution.
@Sarah Proud and Tall: You know who else stood in his headquarters screaming while his supporters told him it was OK?
Villago Delenda Est
Because he has no faith. At all. His religion MUST be propped up by something else.
That’s why there is a thing like “intelligent design”. It’s a desperate attempt to recast the creation myth as something that can be presented with “science” to back it up.
I find their lack of faith disturbing.
See, that’s where I always make my first mistake . . .
These protesters are in this for the long haul. Next week, unions start protesting with them.
@Joseph Nobles: Richard Simmons?
My Dad is a physics PhD. He has been known to bristle at the phrase “It’s not rocket science,” because he’s unimpressed with the intelligence of actual rocket scientists. “Hmph,” he’d scoff. “Most of _them_ believe in God.”
@Villago Delenda Est: Maybe it’s a test of faith. God says “I find your lack of faith disturbing.” Legislator says “My apologies, God. I shouldn’t need science to justify Your will.”
To conservatives, science is a crutch.
We could certainly use more who are both. But any MD who’s aware of the situation (and probably a little peeved about it) will go on at length about how doctors aren’t trained in scientific method and all the problems that error can cause in the profession, because of strong personalities who aren’t taught to question themselves or check their conclusions. Same with engineers.
@Jenny: If Obama cared about gay people he issue the mandatory gay executive order. Anything less is throwing the veal pen under the bus.
Villago Delenda Est
The jeebofascists DEMAND that their bigotry be given the force of law.
@MikeJ: Wow…a Cliff Note’s version of Hamsher. Well done.
I’ve undergone a fair few surgeries over the past several years, and it never occurred to me to question my physician’s religious beliefs. But now I’m thinking, if I am ever faced with similar bad news in the future, I want to know, and I want to make sure my med/surg team doesn’t make decisions about my care and medical protocol based on their interpretation of whatever their personal religious views are.
@Sarah Proud and Tall:
Pretty much. As long as people keep giving the church money they can use to compete with evangelicals in killing gays in africa, I’m sure they’re perfectly willing to overlook people’s non-gay transgressions.
Villago Delenda Est
Well, the REAL problem is that they can’t have that conversation. FSM don’t talk to dumbasses.
Oh great, now I have to start worrying about every bridge I drive over.
Thanks a BUNCH.
I believe this is livesttream of POTUS about to speak at HRC Campaign Diner
@Katie5: and faith is a pillar…. so to speak
You’ve guessed why all those priests got in trouble.
This is OT but re: Occupy Wall Street, interesting that JP Morgan Chase recently made a $4.6 million “donation” to the NYPD Foundation which, as Watertiger notes, “would explain the phalanx of cop cars surrounding One Chase Manhattan Plaza…”
Another question: which came first the science or the religion as the justification for the belief? IOW, maybe they’re also using religion as a crutch to justify their bigotry. “I’ll ignore all the things that Jesus said in order to exploit the Christian religion for my bigotry.”
@Katie5: I was gonna go complete snark here and say “too much salt?” but then that would have been too “Full Metal Biblical” ;-)
Good job here, Signorile, but right now he and a bunch of other catty political queens are tweeting snippy bullshit about the President while he’s speaking at the HRC dinner. Let me at one of those right wing “gay’s a choice” assholes instead. Anyone who would choose community leaders like this is an idiot.
@Southern Beale: Cops are stationed at 1 Police Plaza 24/7/365. This has nothing to do with contributions to anything. They were there a month ago, they were there a year ago, they were there five years ago. It has nothing to do with Occupy Wall Street.
If there are more cops than usual, it’s because some of the protesters have been trying to break into police headquarters and station houses as part of their protest. As in, rushing the door and trying to push anyone blocking them out of the way.
Which is something like ten blocks from 1 Chase Manhattan Plaza.
@Joseph Nobles: Joseph, I have had a back and forth with a lesbian woman with a military partner about President Obama. It’s a friendly back and forth, but she thinks President Obama is spineless and should have done more, faster. Could he have gotten DADT repealed while Pelosi was still Speaker? Did he not push repeal hard enough and openly enough for the gay community? I’m puzzled as to where he has fallen short of expectations.
Everything a Firebagger says makes me think of : “The food here is terrible.” “Yes, and such small portions.”
reb in NC
Forrester is not only confused, he’s a liar:
“Equality supporter Scott Rose has written an open letter to the Senator, and exposes the fact that Forrester, also a physician, lied repeatedly during that broadcast — and is also peddling false credentials about his qualifications.”
Just wanted to make sure y’all saw the latest.
@nancydarling: The DADT repeal turned me from leaning towards the firebaggers to a bit more of an pbo-bot. But I can definitely sympathize with those in the military or with military partners to deal with due to the bitter urgency of the issue for them. Just as I cut a lot more slack for older gays who will die without ever getting the chance to marry and have their partners get their benefits or social security.
@nancydarling: IIRC a lot of people wanted him to use an executive order, or at least to threaten to use an executive order; and a lot of people didn’t like that there was that extra step of the military certifying that it was ready to implement the change, extra surveys, etc. In fact I remember a lot of anguish about how the military would surely find just enough resistance in the ranks to changing the policy that they would sandbag the whole thing. (And some people, like John Aravosis, never got over Obama’s associations with anti-gay singer Donnie McClurkin and anti-gay minister Rick Warren.)
IMHO the full, official legislative repeal could only happen _because_ it moved slowly and allowed the military to set its own terms and pace. That includes the choice to put the policy within the omnibus defense bill first, then gauge support, then split it off into a separate vote. (Most of which were greeted with a hue and cry from the activists.) And I have a feeling that keeping on a Republican SecDef went a long way towards inoculating against the idea that Democrats just wanted to meddle with Our Brave Troops in the hopes of social-engineering them. There turned out to be much less of a vociferous resistance to ending DADT legislatively than I ever would have expected, and that suggests that the painstaking groundwork paid off.
@SiubhanDuinne: It makes me think of a vegan stuck at a steakhouse for a work function, and instead of eating mashed potatoes without butter and remembering to tell the organizers that he’d like a better option next time, he keeps banging his fork on his plate and yelling that this should really be an all-tofu menu because obviously meat is murder.
If Dolan is going to be a political activist over gay marriage, maybe the IRS should take a closer look at the tax-exempt status of his archdiocese.
Your version takes longer to ‘splain, but is much MUCH better.
People who want to see Democrats elected will retire the term “firebagger” and never use it again.
Just a friendly reminder.
Villago Delenda Est
I’ll agree that the process did take a while, but the results are quite satisfactory.
The problem I’ve had with this entire issue for, oh, I don’t know, almost 20 years now, is that if the military were as professional as they claimed they were, they could have implemented this, well, 20 years ago. The irony of Colin Powell, of all people, accepting the same arguments against not giving a shit about gays that were made in 1947 about blacks really frosted me something fierce.
The lifestyle that gays in the military are seeking to pursue is the MILITARY lifestyle, not the gay one. No one seems to get that, and the lack of understanding that they’re seeking to buy into and thrive in a subculture other than the stereotypical gay subculture is lost on many.
It really doesn’t fucking matter who you fuck as long as you’re doing your job, which includes not fucking ANYONE when you’re on duty. Because fucking is NOT PART OF YOUR DUTY, regardless of who you’re fucking.
This is really simple, and it’s not something that guys like Rick Santorum apparently have the native intelligence to grasp.
Thanks guys. You’ve explained a lot. I thought President Obama’s speech tonight at HRC was a real stem winder, and he seemed to be well received. I have heard animosity expressed toward HRC from gay and lesbian friends also, and I’m not sure what that is about either.
I just surfed around the MSM. All 3 networks had stories about Occupy Wall Street—nothing at Fox. HuffPo had a big headline with picture.
Thanks. Don’t really want to get into locking horns with you or anyone else, but I’m not inclined to retire the term “Firebagger” any time soon. It’s useful shorthand, not inherently offensive, easily understood, and fun to say and write. When Hamsher and her ilk want to talk sensibly, I’ll be pleased to modify my language, but I’m not taking on the Mantle of the Guilt of the Democrats if we end up not doing well in 2012.
@SiubhanDuinne: I liked write large. It made me smile.
@Joseph Nobles: Yeah. I just saw that. Ugh.
@SiubhanDuinne: Plus, it was an FDL commenter who coined the term, let’s not forget. S/he was proud of it. Plus, if someone were not to vote Dem ‘coz someone on the ‘nets called him/her a Duraflame Firebagger, well, that person wasn’t gonna vote Dem in the first place.
While it’s true that most doctors are not scientists, some of us are, and most of us have been exposed to scientific methodology. I have a chemistry degree, which required learning about experimentation and statistics. And my medical school required a course in medical statistics, which forced us to learn how to read and interpret journal articles and medical studies.
I can’t say all docs had a similar educational background; many didn’t, and taking and passing a biostatistics class and applying it to your practice are two different things. (It helps to have grown up questioning authority and the corporacracy.)
I suspect many of the docs now involved in politics may not have been good enough to succeed in practice, and/or may have egos that need a larger stage to preen upon.
@SiobhanDuinne: I’ve been wondering if aforementioned GOP medical-type people blame the government for their business issues. Seems like a proper medical pro would prefer to stay in their calling…except, of course, for the ones who did it for the money. And then found an easier way to make money.
But I’m cynical.
Snarki, child of Loki
The “gay’s a choice” assholes (as you call them) really should be more careful.
Because voicing the opinion that “gay’s a choice” is exactly the same as outing oneself by waving around a big, rainbow flag.
Orientation isn’t a choice. Whether a person is in the closet IS. Mixing them up is a classic symptom of a closeted homosexual in denial.
Yup. Sometimes there is unplumbed wisdom even in auto-spellcheck’s arbitrary corrections. For further thoughts on this phenomenon, consult Dr. Freud.
I cannot add to your second point. Thanks.
Freud wrote code? Who knew?
Let me give this a whirl.
Imagine that you are denied your constitutionally guaranteed rights to due process and equal protection. Imagine if a simple majority can decide what your rights are. Imagine if discrimination, while significantly less than in the past, is still present and you need to constantly fight to protect the gains you’ve already made. Imagine if you’ve got friends, family or even strangers that have been discriminated against, bullied into suicide, bashed, brutalized, or murdered. Imagine if you’ve watched most of your friends die of a disease that for a very long time was simply ignored by your government. Your government,
After a while, can you see yourself getting a bit impatient. After a while, can you see yourself saying “enough already, isn’t it about time to put this to rest?”.
There is no question that Barrack Obama has done more for gay rights than any other president in history. No doubt about it. But some people have been waiting a long time, a very long time, and they’re tired of fighting the constant battle to secure the rights which everyone is supposed have, and have watched with growing impatience and frustration as loved ones have died before ever being granted access to the rights that so many take for granted.
If someone expresses some frustration or impatience, or says or does things that seem to you unfair or unproductive, imagine for a moment what it would be like to live as they do…
Evolved Deep Southerner
And THAT is the fucking problem. Do we still have a civilian-controlled military in this country, or has that been a charade since WWII?
ETA: For fuckers who are all about “following orders” and “saluting the uniform and not the man,” they sure as shit don’t walk that walk.
That stems from HRC being in the Clintons pockets. A lot of gays (me included) hated Clinton for DADT & DOMA and then bragging about signing it in ads in the south. That and their embrace of the 3rd-way politics (and ignoring trans rights) really soured a lot of the more left-of-center gays on their organization. I still refuse to donate to them preferring to send my money to the Trevor Project.
@beergoggles: I thought you enthusiastically re-elected Bill Clinton back in the ’90s?
@Corner Stone: Doubt the firebaggers would have me. I’m far too lazy to spend all day, every day bitching and moaning about how Obama has failed me in every single way. On my first day of firebagger duties, I’d get as far as saying “worst president ever” before I’d require assistance to the fainting couch (for a short nap before going home “sick”)…
@Rihilism: Not a problem! FlipYrNick takes his fainting couch with him everywhere he goes. Never know when the vapors will catch you!
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
Nah, not to worry. I know some fundie engineers who think the world’s 6,000 years old. That’s just geology. AFAIK there’s nothing in the Bible that says they can’t run the numbers for statics and dynamics and design a bridge that does the job.
Yes, thank you for writing this, and linking to that (alternately) enraging and delightful interview.
So many ‘Christians’ need to re-read the gospels, especially the parts about judgement, love, and the wise centurion and the ‘slave’ he loved i.e. his lover. (That is to say, Roman society was as fucked up as ours. It wouldn’t have been acceptable in polite society otherwise.) These people cry “Christ, Christ!” but most of them wouldn’t recognize that sage if they met him.
@Corner Stone: Was that before or after your vote for Perot? ;)
@beergoggles: In ’92 I enthusiastically voted for the “It’s the economy, stupid!” candidate.
@Corner Stone: So did everyone else.
A few years ago I got into an argument online with a creationist medical doctor, and I started to wonder about whether doctors are considered scientists. So I googled “Are doctors scientists?” and the top hit at that time was an editorial from the British Medical Journal, titled, Doctors are not scientists. I thought that was pretty funny. It does open with a caveat: “Some doctors are scientists—just as some politicians are scientists—but most are not.”
Still, it sometimes surprises me that doctors and engineers, people whose fields overlap significantly with the sciences, can be so clueless about the nature of science. Other times I’m not really surprised; it can take a lot of thought to figure out the philosophical underpinnings of what you do for a living.
@Sarah Proud and Tall:
I wish FourLoko could get it through her head that people can consider themselves members of a religion and yet still not agree with every last bit of it. I think Amir would enjoy the break.
@suzanne: Apparently this is not true for Islam. It’s all or nothing, and of course she is the final arbiter of that all.
@Yutsano: It’s so fucking obnoxious. I want to tell her that lots of Christians don’t proselytize, but I have a feeling she wouldn’t be able to handle that body blow to her worldview.
It’s because she’s not too bright.
That is just pure genius.
@handy: Why, thank you.
@Corner Stone: Dude, aren’t you supposed to be funny? What’s next, “I’m not touching you”?
@nancydarling: One of my former college roommates ended up being a fairly important marriage-equality activist and was there at the speech. He liked it; he’s with HRC. But his Facebook wall has a lot of acrimonious comments, with people firing off comments like, “No, _you’re_ the wrong kind of gay activist, because you’re too easily satisfied”; “No, _you’re_ the wrong kind of gay activist, because you’re never satisfied and always looking for a fight.”
@Evolved Deep Southerner:
There are obviously a lot of political entities who don’t take kindly to being moved faster than they want to move, or in a direction they don’t want to go, and when they’re viewed sympathetically by the public, you have to confront them with some finesse. The military has to be right at the top. Much the same thing is true of doctors. There aren’t many left-leaning groups that can count on a baseline level of support from the public, and the right has been furiously denigrating probably the last one, teachers.
re creationist doctors and engineers:
Philosophical consistency is not a big priority on the right- hand side of the aisle. They have no trouble “believing” one thing on Sunday and its complete opposite the rest of the week.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Besides that, like the teabaggers, they proudly named themselves firebaggers. If the foo shits, wear it.
The firebaggers are wearing it, proudly.
Well, God did not “make” transgendered people, since elective surgery is a prerequisite for the “trans” part. It would be more accurate to perhaps say that God made some people whose mental sexual hardwiring isn’t compatibly matched with their otherwise normal physical sexual hardwiring. Other than perhaps the minute fraction of unfortunate folks born with abnormally ambiguous physical sex characteristics who undergo surgery to clarify the ambiguity one way or the other, no one is “born” transgendered however.
In noting this distinction, I am NOT making any adverse moral judgment about the sort of people who feel strongly conflicted enough about their predicament to go through with transgendering. The rest of us cannot imagine what it must be like to feel caught enough in this predicament to feel that trangendering surgery seems an appropriate corrective course.
@cmorenc: Well, actually, “God” didn’t make gays or lesbians, either.
Straight people did. :)
@FlipYrWhig: Very true. I know a couple of rocket scientists and believe me, they’re not brain surgeons. I also know a couple of brain surgeons, and believe me, they’re not rocket scientists.
@Too Many Jimpersons (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.):
agreed. this raises an interesting question though: as dumb as a rock as gov. perry has publicly displayed himself to be, how is it he keeps getting re-elected in TX? is the entire voting population of that state brain-dead?
@cmorenc: I’m pretty sure you’re mixing up transgendered and transsexual.