It goes without saying that I think Hermann Cain has no chance of being the Republican nominee. That said, I’ve gotten to kind of like the guy. I mostly agree with Chauncey de Vega’s critique of Cain on racial questions, but Cain’s 999 plan is much more specific and implementable than all the craziness about silver dimes and electrified border moats that we hear from the other Republican candidates during the debates. Obviously, it would be disastrous for the country; that’s a given.
Maybe it’s just that I enjoy hearing conservatives devolve into “straight-shooting” baby talk:
“When they ask me who’s the president of Ubeki-beki-beki-beki-stan-stan I’m going to say, you know, I don’t know. Do you know?”
It’s not quite Enema Man and Snoopy Snoopy Poop Dogg cassette tapes for your iTunes player, but I think Cain will get there eventually if he’s given enough airtime.
gogol's wife
This means he’s going to win. Remember when they asked George W. Bush who was the leader of Pakistan and he said “General General”?
arguingwithsignposts
I want to bring up your post from last night.
I’m not so interested in which Shakespearean characters resemble the various GOP clowns, but more which Shakespearean characters resemble the various characters around these parts. AL? ABL? Cole? Dougnymchanger? Tim F.? toko_loko? Corner Stone? etc.
Enjoy the intellectual exercise, if possible.
gogol's wife
@arguingwithsignposts:
m_c is Hamlet when he’s pretending to be crazy. Corner Stone is Iago.
harlana
Excuse me, that’s HERB Cain, please and thank you!
JGabriel
Shorter Value Voters Summit: Mitt Romney’s worship of a Sky God whose Jewish son died on a Roman cross 2000 years ago is weirder than our worship of a Sky God whose Jewish son died on a Roman cross 2000 years ago.
.
Amir Khalid
@arguingwithsignposts:
I’d just as soon not find out which Shakespearian character I am, thank you very much. I don’t think my fragile psyche could take it.
ETA: Hermann Cain? With two n’s? Is there supposed to be a German reference here?
harlana
@JGabriel: Nobody ever said it has to make sense!
Mark S.
From the Benen link:
Hmm, that’s how I envisioned a Palin campaign, though I also figured Sarah wouldn’t show up for the debates (probably giving some lame excuse like she’s working too hard for the American people to attend them).
I thought the 2008 Republican field was pretty weak, but they’re starting to look like an All-Star team compared to this crop.
patrick II
@Amir Khalid:
That would make you Ophelia.
harlana
From the little bit I know about Mormonism, it seems you really can’t say it is not a Christian religion as it is based on Christianity. But it was and is still being rejected by Christians who consider it to be an illegitimate box of fruit loops.
Republican contenders (including Cain, this morning) appear to be tip-toeing around this like they are walking through a bunch of land mines. I have to give the VV guy credit for at least coming out and saying what they really think. He represents a big chunk of the southern electorate
Chauncey DeVega
thanks for the love.
funny, first I was hated, and now I proved to be prophetic.
the pain of being a first adopter.
You are write though, this is a big setup to sell his book and go on Fox. I do wonder when the next shoe will fall as I bet money that most if not all of his book is fictionalized.
I am going to post it on my site today, but if you want a good laugh go over to Stormfront and some of the other white nationalists sites and see what they are saying about Herb Cain.
Southern Beale
I don’t think they even care anymore. Did you see this thing about Rand Paul sending out a letter to supporters fearmongering about UN goons stealing everyone’s guns? Because of a bill the Senate was supposed to vote on?
Snopes had debunked this thing OVER A YEAR before. You’d think a sitting U.S. Senator would know what bills the Senate is about to vote on.
Stupid or evil? Or Both?
Nutella
I hope when questions about Mitt’s Mormonism come up that they are always accompanied by a question about Article VI of the constitution.
“no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”
And also when Mitt or any of the others tells us that he’ll have no Muslims in the Cabinet.
Bill E Pilgrim
Yeah but the last laugh is on him because the next day someone from Uzbekistan stumbled pronouncing the name “DumbF**kistan” in an interview as revenge.
Judas Escargot
@gogol’s wife:
I’d think more Ophelia, actually being crazy.
Twenty years ago, I would have been Puck. Bit too old for tights these days, though.
JGabriel
@harlana:
I’m probably gonna get this all wrong, but if I remember correctly, the big difference between Mormonism and Catholicism/Protestantism is that Joseph Smith added a third book of fan fiction about Jesus coming to America after the Resurrection.
.
patrick II
I find I like Herman Cain too — at least more than the wankers he is running against. For a republican in this environment he is a good candidate. I also think he gets a lot of votes from the “See we’re really not racist” crowd. I am kind of amused that he actually has found himself out in front in some polls and wonder hwo long those “non-reacist_ votes will hold up in a game of chicken if he actually appears to be winning the nomination.
harlana
@JGabriel: Correct, I mean I’m no LDS scholar or anything but that’s right. Christians did not take kindly to this “sequel”
Amir Khalid
First patrick II compares me to Ophelia, then Judas Escargot compares m_c to Ophelia. If the commutative law holds for these comparisons…
AAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
WereBear
@JGabriel: I am also not-a-trained-theologian, but it seems to me that an argument could be made that Mormonism is not a Christian religion in term of lineage.
Unlike the Protestant movement, which was based on the same holy books and general theology, Mormonism went down a wild side street. Just as Judaism is not a Christian religion, having its own take on the Messiah and subsequent redemption, so Mormonism has a completely different view on such subjects as heaven and hell and how to get there.
I could create my own religion (and for financial purposes it’s probably the last growth industry open to one of my humble status) featuring someone named Jesus; it would have about as much connection to Christianity as Mormonism does.
ajr22
Cain needs to study up on the situation in Derkaderkastan if he really wants to be taken seriously, or he can just forget how many houses he owns.
Villago Delenda Est
@Mark S.:
Given that some of the them are reruns from 2008, that’s saying something.
My Shakespearean character? The guy who says “First, let’s kill all the talking heads.”
Bill E Pilgrim
@harlana: Ah, your location is now pinpointed. Or at least, er, localized. It’s a good bet anyway.
cokane
A Cain nomination would be disastrous for the Repub party. That being said, don’t get your hopes up kids. Iowa first, then New Hampshire. Cain won’t win either place, because he doesn’t really campaign, and those are states where you actually have to campaign to win. Once he finishes 3rd or worse in both, he will no longer look like a winner, and the bandwagoners will move on to Romney or Perry.
Corner Stone
@gogol’s wife: I would not have left Emilia to betray me.
But thanks, all the same.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@harlana: “He’s a Mormon,” Cain said on CNN’s “State of the Union.” “That much I know. I am not going to do an analysis of Mormonism versus Christianity for the sake of answering that. I’m not getting into that.”
I love this quote from Cain. He takes both the high and low road at the same time! He says we shouldn’t focus on such trivial matters at the same time he is saying Mormons are NOT Christians! Totally awesome…
Corner Stone
@ajr22: Dirka Dirka! Muhammed Jihad!
Villago Delenda Est
Given that there’s a healthy chunk of American Protestants who don’t think that Roman Catholics are Christians, is anyone the least bit surprised why they’d look askance at the $cientology of the 19th Century?
harlana
Michele Bachmann is wearing the biggest falsh eyelashes I have ever seen. Michele, honey, you and I know us more mature ladies need tricks to “open” up those hooded eyes, but overdoing it just makes you look desperate.
arguingwithsignposts
@Villago Delenda Est:
This gives me an opportunity to mention my new take on Janis Joplin’s “Mercedes Benz,” now as a blog post with music to help with the syllabically-challenged.
Many thanks to Mrs. Polly and Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason for their suggestions to clean it up.
Mark S.
Who’s Falstaff on this blog?
Chris
The black guy needs to do a lot more to prove his Seriousness. Probably true of our politics in general, but much more so in the GOP.
harlana
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine: yep, i saw that! crafty, but the question is not going away for any of these candidates that want to appear “above the fray” which, in itself, is a bit laughable and profoundly ironic.
Villago Delenda Est
@JGabriel:
On golden tablets that no one but Joseph Smith ever saw.
Mind you, this was in a part of the country where crazy Christianity absolutely thrived in the first half of the 19th Century.
JCT
@harlana: Or overly medicated….
Chris
@Southern Beale:
Conservatives are incapable of winning by talking about the real world, so they have to argue against things that exist only in their own fantasies: the existence of Fox News, the Washington Times and their online equivalents ensures everyone’s on the same page.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@Mark S.: It used to Rosie, but she seems to have calmed down now…
RossInDetroit
@Mark S.:
Let’s see, who’s named John…
BGinCHI
If Cain is the nominee, do you think they’ll hold the debates at an undisclosed location or in a version of the Pope-mobile with the dome and bulletproof glass?
I also wonder how long the “I don’t know anything about the world or the job I’m running for, but I can talk tough about shit I’m not involved in” will last. I don’t think the youths are going to go for that with all their facts and technology. All it takes is some people to look stuff up and they are gonna demand smarter candidates. At least Chris Christie, who is a total asshole, doesn’t seem like a complete idiot.
harlana
i sound like the person who goes around saying “I have black friends” or “I have gay friends” in that, I had a good friend who was Mormon (it’s been years since she moved, however, and we lost touch). I also worked for a Mormon and my ex’s secretary was a Mormon. They were all incredibly nice, decent people. They think the rest of us are going to hell and stuff, but they’re nice!
Mitt’s cruelty to animals disturbs me a lot more than his faith. And he let his children see that. What kind of person is that? Is there a human being in there somewhere?
IM
Sahrah Proud and Tall is Richard III.
Falstaff: M-C could be Falstaff – all that endless bragging but I think Falstaff can laugh about himself, so…
Is John Cole King Lear?
BGinCHI
@Mark S.: A bit heavy, drinks a lot, occasionally dresses up like a woman.
I’d say Cole.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@harlana: too lazy to google this, but what is the deal with Mitt and his dog…? I have heard this several times now…
Villago Delenda Est
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine:
That very thing was illustrated in my local fishwrap today, in a long screed by someone from “Oregon Right to Life” about how Planned Parenthood needs to be held accountable for tax funds that might be used to pay for abortions, when the real problem is they’re using tax funds to provide contraception which short circuits the divine punishment of those vile sluts who can’t keep their legs closed which of course is childbirth and motherhood.
CarolDuhart
@Mark S.: To be fair, I don’t think Cain ever really thought he would still be in it this late. So he/his managers made no plans for something like this and are probably scrambling.
Cain, like Huntsman, probably thought that Romney would have it sewn up by now. The goal/s would be for people like this: a head start for 2016/2020, greater exposure for other higher offices, like Senator or an appointment. perhaps some media gigs when some of the other folks retire from politics. Well, it looks like less of a done deal now with Perry in the race. Split decision? Brokered convention? Or a surprise winner? Anything is possible now if the funding can be found.
RossInDetroit
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine:
Here:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/sep/13/gail-collins/mitt-romney-and-dog-car-roof-one-columnists-obsess/
IM
DouJ is Mercutio.
harlana
I even flipped out when one of my “well meaning” coworkers placed a bible in my Mormon boss’s chair with a note saying “The true word of God” my boss took it well and these guys even stayed friends! Here I was all mad and my boss just shrugged it off and laughed – I also saw this in another workplace when I was temping. The girl did the same thing to a Jewish lady I was working with. This girl, like my “well meaning” coworker, had Christian verses and sayings all over her office, and she was one more bona fide, backstabbing bitch! My well-meaning coworker was also an ass to people on a regular basis.
I can say this much for Mormons, they never tried to force their faith on me while being obvious hypocrites in the process.
BGinCHI
Romney will be the nominee and Obama will beat him. Mitt just ain’t going to inspire GOPers to come out in droves.
What I’m worried about are state races (esp state house/senate). The unraveling at the state level on local economies, on education, and civil rights is making an impact. People have seen what the GOP will do and I’m curious to see what this will mean in turnout at the state level.
SiubhanDuinne
@harlana:
Jeez. I just saw her on CNN (Candy Crowley interview). It’s not just the false eyelashes, which make her look as though someone threw a couple of tarantulas at her face; it’s the Madame Tussaud’s quality of her visage, which I have to assume is someone getting a little bit carried away with the Botox needle.
Corner Stone
@BGinCHI: Mitt won’t have to motivate the GOP voters as Obama (‘s existence) will be doing that for him.
SiubhanDuinne
@Mark S.:
Tunch. Duh.
harlana
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine: If I recall correctly (cuz I don’t want to google it either, it’s too depressing), he strapped his irish setter, in a carrier, to the top of his station wagon for a 12 hour trip. The dog, being naturally terrified after being hurled through space at 60 miles an hour for 12 hours, crapped all over itself. And, I think, it was supposed to be funny or something. I think Mitt thought it was cute.
Don’t people like this deserve to be beaten with a baseball bat or something, or is it just me?
Yutsano
@CarolDuhart:
Option 2. If the base was going to coalesce around Romney we’d see him getting better numbers by now. That still isn’t happening.
arguingwithsignposts
@harlana, et al.: Most discussions of “who is a Christian” are just forms of the No True Scotsman argument, and it’s been going on since forever. Unfortunately, the only way to clear it up is for Jesus himself to come down and draw a diagram. And he’d probably get executed again for saying something someone didn’t like.
Plus, he doesn’t seem to be taking calls at the moment.
harlana
@SiubhanDuinne: haha, indeed! i think she looked great before, whatever I feel about her as a person, she was very attractive. Now she’s looking a bit “Hollywood over 50” – I’ll at least give Palin credit for not getting too crazy with the face needles
Corner Stone
@harlana:
Palin has had her waddle scalped to within an inch of its life.
WereBear
@arguingwithsignposts: What makes this a political point is that I can’t see the Evangelical wing accepting Romney as a Christian. They were unhappy enough with McCain, an Episcopalian. This is another whole planet of Not Acceptable.
Amir Khalid
So far, Perry has won a poll, Romney has won a poll, Bachmann has won a poll, Cain has won a poll, even Ron
PollPaul has won a poll. If I am not mistaken, that leaves only Huntsman and Santorum without a prize.I think this shows that the polling of Republican candidates’ support has been completely useless. Either the polls are all hopelessly unrepresentative; or, more likely, Republican voters are just too fickle, and it’s anyone’s guess whom they’ll pick this time. They are certainly spoiled for choice when it comes to proudly ignorant buffoons. Cain is far from being the only such candidate.
BGinCHI
@Corner Stone: It ain’t gonna be enough. Bush hatred never got the Dems over the top. You have to have a good candidate. And I hope Mitt’s weakness hurts the GOP down the ticket.
harlana
@Villago Delenda Est:
My ex was a baptist. He came right out and said to me one day, “WE hate the Catholics” – that’s when I started to understand, or rather, that’s when my suspicions were confirmed.
paychobroad
@harlana: No it is not just you–that story gets worse every time I read it. Totally disgusting, and yes, he probably thought it was cute.
Cassidy
Mormonism is not a branch of Christianity. I’m sure they are as devoutly religious as the next guy and I say good for you, but the very creation and foundation of the religion violates a few of the commandments.
OTOH, considering how a lot of Christians act, I cna imagine God will take what he can get.
otto
I’m taking a line from the comments. I’m changing it a little.
The only difference between Herman Cain and Sarah Palin is a pair of pumps.
Corner Stone
@BGinCHI: IMO, we’re going to see an explosion of GOP voters in ’12. It may quite literally be their last national gasp. You could put Walter Mondale on the top of the GOP ticket and they’re still coming out.
They want the WH of course, and believe they can get the Senate this go round as well.
IM
@otto:
I don’t think so. Cain seems to have a lot of fun. Palin is quickly insulted and would have been in a perpetual state of victim hood on the campaign trail.
JGabriel
Villago Delenda Est:
I’m wondering if it’s really accurate to suggest that such craziness was limited to the 19th century. I’m having trouble thinking of evidence to suggest that the following two centuries have been any saner.
.
Svensker
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine:
I can’t think of any Christian denomination that considers Mormonism to be Christian. It grew out of Christianity, sort of in the same way that Christianity grew out of Judaism. But it ain’t it. Mormons apparently find this annoying, but they are not in communion with any Christian churches so far as I know.
4jkb4ia
Benen’s got a point in the linked post. I admit it. I am still waiting 24 hours to find out if John is mad at me.
eemom
Lady Macbeth here, bitchez.
Yutsano
@Svensker:
This is correct. No Christian denomination recognizes Mormonism as a legitimate Christian sect. Not even the more liberal ones. They may respect the Mormons, but they do not consider them of the body of Christ.
Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen
All Herman Cain does is prove race is no impediment to being a conservative douchenozzle in the U.S. of A. I honestly hope the GOP has forgotten the lesson it was taught in Illinois a few years ago.
Wasn’t this Lil’ Shrub’s answer to a reporter’s question about a foreign city? I know, the man said so many dumbass things it is hard to keep track. However it sounds awfully familiar.
And when doggie diarrhea began to run down the car windows, Mittens did what any caring, sharing pet owner would do: He pulled into a service station and hosed out the carrier while the dog was still in there. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
eemom
@Yutsano:
Not a big fan of the Mormons, but I honestly don’t get the “not Christian” thing. If they believe the Jesus dude is the Son of God and all, how can they not be Christians in any reasonable meaning of the word? And why is it up to OTHER Christians to say who’s a Christian?
Oh well. It’s all stoopid.
Alison
@harlana:
When I feel like momentarily silencing my pacifistic nature and allowing my good ol’ red-blooded violent fantasies some time to run and play – and animal abuse most assuredly makes me feel as such – I always go back to one of Carlin’s ideas of better forms of capital punishment: “dip him in brown gravy and lock him in a small room with a wolverine who’s high on angel dust”.
Amir Khalid
I’m curious to know if this questioning of the Christianness of Mormonism is a new thing in politics. It doesn’t seem to be a big deal that, say, Harry Reid is one. Back when the Osmonds were big, was “Mormons, Christian or not?” a big burning question?
harlana
The long-term unemployed are being discriminated against because, try as they might, they haven’t been able to find a job in 2 years. Of course, employers will quickly learn to enforce a policy of silence about hiring decisions – it is really unbelievable to me that a FedEx employee blabbed this, I’m sure he/she is no longer employed there. They’ll keep on doing this, because they can.
Svensker
@Amir Khalid:
A Mormon hasn’t been this close to the presidency before, and evangelical Christians have not been in control of one of the major parties in the U.S. before.
Yutsano
@Amir Khalid:
It’s actually been a big question for their entire existence. IIRC for awhile in Illinois a Mormon could not hold public office especially if they had more than one wife. The fact that they ascribe to any word outside the Old and New Testament is enough for most denomonical Christians to reject them out of hand.
@eemom: See above.
@Svensker: This is also true.
4jkb4ia
In fact, I did get to see the story yesterday where Cain thought Bibi would consent to the right of return and I said out loud, “OK, Mr. Cole, define joke”. (I got up early because I knew the unemployment report would be out).
IM
@Amir Khalid:
Was the father of Romney ever questioned about his religion during his run?
harlana
@Thoughtful Black Co-Citizen: Damn, that’s right! I knew there was something I didn’t want to remember about that. I think we need to put some nails in that baseball bat.
Mitt shoulda remembered that God is Dog spelled backwards and that karma is real.
eemom
@Yutsano:
ok, I guess that makes some sense.
Svensker
@eemom:
Well, you could argue that Christians are really Jews because they believe Jesus was the fulfillment of the Jewish prophecies — see, they ARE Jews! Or Bahais are really Muslims because they believe Mohamed was a true prophet — hey, they are Muslims!
The people who are members of the club usually feel free to delineate what entitles others to membership in that club. Outsiders can claim they are members, but it doesn’t make it so. Outsiders also can, and do, frequently create the “New Club” and make up their own rules. It’s a human thing.
4jkb4ia
But we let out at two o’clock. TWO O’CLOCK! LIKE CIVILIZED PEOPLE! If the previous rabbi had still been in charge we would never have gone home.
Svensker
I’m outta here, on my way to Niagara-on-the-Lake — gotta get there in time to see the Jets to get crushed…
Chris T.
@arguingwithsignposts: I thought Jesus did come back, and was executed in Texas under GWBush. :-)
nancydarling
@Amir Khalid: I don’t remember anyone questioning Mormonism on the Democratic side of things. If I am wrong, some one inform me. This is only an issue for the Republicans due to their “base” of bat-shit crazy small “c” christians. Mainline Protestant denominations don’t indulge in the bashing either to my knowledge.
Chris
@Svensker:
This.
It wouldn’t matter so much if he were a Democrat, but he’s a Republican. So to please the base, he has to simultaneously go “oh yes, yes, certainly Jesus Litmus Test VERY important,” and at the same time go “no, no, Mormons DO pass the Jesus Litmus test, really we do!”
Good luck to him. I think many people overestimate his Mormon problem – it’s not insurmountable, I could still see him getting the nomination. But it is still a big problem.
The Republic of Stupidity
From Benin’s article…
Indeed… I kinda feel this is where the whole mess is headed…
A Romney/Cain ticket… w/ the GOOPers hoping a possible black VP will siphon off enough votes to stop Obama from keeping the WH…
kay
@IM:
I wonder about Romney’s father and (modern) hard Right conservatives, not because of his Mormonism, but because of his liberalism.
He proposed the first state income tax in Michigan, he supported civil rights (publicly and really, bravely). He was, essentially, the anti-Goldwater.
These people have long memories, they’re Right wing lunatics, and they hold a grudge. Maybe I’m giving them too much credit for knowing the history of their own Party, but Mitt’s dad wouldn’t be a Republican today. He’d be primaried right out of existence.
Barry
“Cain’s 999 plan is much more specific and implementable…”
So? It’s still a pack of fraud that’d f*ck most Americans to benefit the elites?.
Amir Khalid
@4jkb4ia:
Search me. I’m a foreigner. Maybe someone else here knows more about George Romney.
Cassidy
@eemom: Because Mormons follow the Book of Mormon and the Bible is more of an appendix. It boils down to not following the word of Jesus by direct pipeline. Instead it’s following the words of Jesus as interpreted by Joseph Smith. Kind of the same relationship of The Book of Common Prayer in the Episcopalian Church.
IM
@kay:
Oh Romney is not half the man his father was. His fathers presidential run was ended by saying the truth about his vietnan war support, after all.
But you give the average republican primary voter to much historical knowledge, I think.
Silver
@Chauncey DeVega:
Man, Stormfront really really loves Ron Paul.
Lysana
Aside from the Book of Mormon and their interpretations of some of the Bible, the Mormons have a duotheistic approach. They consider Yahweh to be a married god, since marriages are eternal and it’s only fair for their supreme being to have a wife. He probably had several before the official rejection of polygyny, but that’s neither here nor there.
And as a former Roman Catholic, I have family history to back up the hatred of that faith by the Protestant arrivistes. But also having been raised in a church that had communion with an Episcopalian church in our town, there were exceptions made. But bet your bottom dollar that for all the mixed sectarian activities we had with them, the Methodists and the American Baptists in town, if we had a Mormon church, no way in heck would they have been invited. We didn’t even play with the local Eastern Orthodox church much, but that was mutual. Each side in that ancient split is sure the other is doomed.
WereBear
@Cassidy: Exactly.
Ironically, I know many people, including myself, who try to live in the way outlined by Jesus in the Gospels. They follow other religions, or none (I’m a Taoist, myself, which is more of a philosophy than a religion.)
I would say these folks are actually more aligned with the principles preached by Jesus than the pits of scathing hate that characterize so much of the evangelical Christians… yet we are not Christian.
Which is accurate… yet depressing.
kay
@IM:
Right. But I’m not really talking about them, the “average” voter.
I firmly believe Dick Cheney’s whole adult life was devoted to getting revenge for Watergate. I think that was his whole motivation to be in “public service” past his first stretch.
Republicans do a lot based on vengeance. I think they wanted to impeach a Democrat, pay-backs!- and they did. I think they’ll try to take Holder down simply because Gonzales had to run away in disgrace.
You’ve seen them on Katrina. They simply believe that because a Republican made an absolute mess of a disaster response, it is only fair that we all pretend a Democrat, any Democrat, did too.
Obama has had 4 (supposed) “Katrinas” now, at the insistence of media and Republicans. It has to be FAIR, so goddamn it, they are going to FIND a Katrina. It’s the opposite of “merit”, really. It’s even-steven, facts be damned.
Long memory, vengeance, spite.
nancydarling
@Lysana: On the 60th anniversary of Cristal Night, all the churches and synagogues in the South Bay of L.A. County went together and commissioned an art work made of unbreakable glass and dedicated it—except one and it wasn’t the Mormons. It was the largest fundamentalist, evangelical church in the area. They were also known for leafletting car windows during the services of the Mormons and I believe the Christian Scientists.
Chris
@kay:
I completely agree with the whole assessment of the GOP, but why Dick Cheney’s adult life, specifically? What did he have to do with Watergate? (Sorry, I don’t know much about his early life other than the five deferments).
PeakVT
@Chris: I don’t think that Romney can’t get the nomination because of his religion. But I do think it will keep enough hard-core evangelicals home that it could affect the general election outcome. There won’t be a mass revolt, but there will be 2% or so who can’t stomach it. The question is whether Romney can pick up enough moderates in to compensate. Perry has the opposite problem.
SiubhanDuinne
@kay:
Fixed.
Dee Loralei
@Amir Khalid: You always seem rather wise to me. So I’m guessing, in Shakespearean terms, that’s make you one of the King’s Fools!
Totally a compliment, even if it sounds odd.
Sly
@eemom:
Sectarian conflict is ultimately about intellectual property rights.
Chris
@PeakVT:
I agree with all of that. Not a huge, huge, Al Smith level problem, but he’ll lose a percentage point or two for it in the general, and it makes for some really awkward moments (like the Values Voter summit) in the meantime.
Perry has the opposite problem, but that makes Romney more electable for a simple reason. Romney would lose hard-liners, and when you lose the hard-liners, they just stay home. Perry would lose moderates, and when you lose moderates, they run to the other party. Perry’s weakness would strengthen Obama, Romney’s wouldn’t.
I tried explaining that to some conservatives online after 2008, that Palin had actually helped them lose by alienating the moderates, but nothing going. They’re convinced Princess Sarah is the reason they did “so well” and everything that went wrong was mean RINO McCain’s fault. Ah well, let’s hope they stay stupid.
eemom
@Lysana:
heh, true that. I’m on the Other Side myself.
The EO, amongst other things: allow priests to marry; allow divorce; don’t give a shit if people use birth control. We also always celebrate Easter AFTER Passover, which of course is when the event is supposed to have occurred. Last but not least, we don’t breed pedophiles, much less shelter them.
So, our side IS kind of better, imho. Jussayinzall. : )
Amir Khalid
@Dee Loralei:
I know what you mean, and thank you for the compliment. But the Shakespearian Fool I remember most vividly is King Lear’s — and he, alas, came to a nasty end.
kay
@Chris:
Cheney went to meetings in Nixon’s White House w/Rumsfeld. There he learned “what a President has to do in the course of a day”.
I think it’s broader than that, in conservatism, the opposition to the move to post-Watergate transparency/accountability. My (former) GOP governor once claimed “executive privilege” as a governor, to avoid a misdemeanor/campaign finance/corruption charge. It was pathetic.
I think they shroud it in lofty legal theories of national security and executive power, but it’s really about not sharing information with the press or the public, all the way down to the state level.
My current GOP governor refused to move into the governor’s mansion. Ohio has strict sunshine laws, and they cover the governor’s mansion. This is not a coincidence.
Omnes Omnibus
@arguingwithsignposts: I have always been partial to Macduff. I wouldn’t see myself as him – hell, I was born on the day I was expected, no untimely ripping here. I just am partial to the guy.
eemom
@Amir Khalid:
I was thinking Kent for you — he who tried to talk sense into Lear at the beginning — truth to power, and all that. He was banished for his trouble, but one of the few characters left standing at the end of Act V.
Love that play.
Lojasmo
@Silver:
Well, Paul is an elderly white male racist.
Chris
@kay:
Yeah.
The “big government/small government” argument’s a sideshow – the real conflict’s Big Executive (Republicans) vs maintaining checks and balances (Democrats). Their elites love the executive branch because it’s so much easier to run and faster to get things through than Congress, and their base loves it because they’re wired for having a Big Daddy figure telling them what to do.
Omnes Omnibus
@eemom: Lear, meh. The Scottish Play rules – as far as the tragedies go.
IM
@Omnes Omnibus:
I was untimely ripped. (More common these days). But I am actually a Macbeth fan.
Cacti
@Svensker:
Mormonism is in the same group with Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists…
Christian-ish, but no ecumenical organization wants to claim them.
kay
@Chris:
Agreed, but I think it’s way more sophisticated than that. One of the benefits of public-private “partnerships” (and privatization in general) is they can go around laws designed around transparency, or, reporting requirements.
We have an “economic development” (appointed) public-private council now in Ohio, and other than their taxpayer-funded salaries, it’s almost completely opaque.
We just trust them to act in our best interest. I know I do!
Anya
BJ FPers and commenters are neither interesting enough nor villainous enough to be compared to a Shakespearian character.
Omnes Omnibus
@Anya: I bet you are a lot of fun at parties.
Kathy in St. Louis
You know, I didn’t think he was any worse than the rest until he made the remark about the unemployed needing to look at themselves if they are out of work, as if the unending layoffs in this country didn’t happen. I just thought that the guy was sort of clueless. Then I read his bio on Wikipedia. He was on the Federal Reserve Board, is a mathematician, a very educated guy who knows better. At that point I realized he’s just like all the rest of the GOP contenders…sucking up to the most conservative arm of the Republican Party. In my opinion, that really makes him worse than the likes of Bachmann or Palin, whor just seem to be rather stupid people. He kinda, sorta, makes me sick.
JCT
@SiubhanDuinne: Ice tea all over my monitor — awesome, thanks!
Southern Beale
@harlana:
As pissed off as I am about having to defend Cain & Bachmann on this one, whether Mormons are “Christians” has no place in the political debate. And I was shocked that Candy Crowley would even ASK that question. Like, what: if you’re elected you’re gonna outlaw it or something? WTF? Why does this even matter?
Absolutely the LAST thing we need to do in this country is have a debate on whether Mormons are Christians. We have SO much more important stuff to talk about.
But typical CNN, chasing after idiotic crap instead of talking about the issues that really matter. They are SO dead to me.
Anya
@Omnes Omnibus: What? Not allowed to share my opinion? Besides, I did not say others cannot attempt, so no need to pick on me.
@Chauncey DeVega: Great to see you here. I love your blog.
Dougerhead
@Svensker:
I believe that Christians are more or less Jews. The religion was founded by Jews and it continues to rely a lot on the Old Testament.
eemom
@Anya:
it’s just that it kind of hurts our feefees to be told we’re not “interesting or villainous enough.”
:(
Omnes Omnibus
@Anya: What did I say that would indicate that you are not allowed to share your opinion? If you want to share your opinion, which you clearly did, you should expect that others might have a response to it. Mine was to guess that you aren’t a lot of fun at parties.
Also, what eemom said.
eemom
@Cacti:
I don’t know if that is entirely true of the Adventists. I had a dear friend who was one, one of the most sincerely devout people I have ever known. They are pretty much Bible literalists.
Jay C
@Amir Khalid:
IIRC, George Romney’s religion (which had never been much of an issue in his terms as governor) never became a problem for him on the national level, because he was never in the race long enough for it to do so. While he met pretty much all the qualifications for candidacy (successful business experience, successful gubernatorial experience, bipartisan appeal, “Presidential” looks), he ran into three major stumbling blocks in his WH run that, ultimately, sank his campaign:
1) The Detroit Riots of 1967, which soiled his otherwise-sterling reputation as Governor.
2) His comments about being “brainwashed” over support for the Vietnam War (which made him look foolish, and gave pro-war Republicans an out to run away from him.
3) The misfortune to be running against Richard M. Nixon, that prize ratfucker of American political history.
Son Willard, as it has turned out, has seemingly gotten farther than his dad did in the GOP candidate race: his Mormonism – as a national political issue – has thus, been pushed more to the fore.
Bubblegum Tate
@JGabriel:
There was an amazing comment on this blog a while back comparing the different Christian churches to fanfic and arguments over what’s canon and what isn’t. I wish I could find it, because it was just perfect.
Amir Khalid
@Dougerhead:
Oh noes! There’s no way that many Jews will fit in Israel!
Chris
@kay:
So much for the we-can’t-just-let-big-government-decide-things-for-us ethic, eh?
eemom
@Amir Khalid:
it would fix the demographic problem tho.
wrb
@Dougerhead:
The god-being intermediary between man and the rest of nature is a hugh difference that most of the other prior ones when the relationship was with the numinous world directly with only some anthropomorphizing of the force of the thunder and the spirit of the grotto, probably mainly for the sake of the children.
Anya
@eemom: Hard to believe in the cynical and jaded BJ world, anyone would be hurt by my innocuous comment.
@Omnes Omnibus: If you must know, I am fun at parties. I don’t even need to be drunk or high to be fun or to have fun.
BGinCHI
@Anya:
I don’t think “party” means what you think it means.
Villago Delenda Est
@JGabriel:
Oh, you need to read up on how utterly fucked up western NY state was in the 1820’s and 1830’s. It was so bad that towards the end, it was described as “burned over”, because there was no one left to be evangelized there, so many of these “Second Great Awakening” movements had swept over the area. Mormons, Millerites, and others contended to grab as many followers as possible in that area.
The thing with George Romney in the 60’s is that no one on the national level, after JFK won in ’60, really gave a rat’s ass about a candidate’s religion. There were more important fish to fry. However, with the rise of the “Religious Right” in the 80’s and since, and their takeover of the GOP, it’s become more and more important among them. Roman Catholics *barely* qualify…there were some uncomfortable with McCain’s Episcopalian faith, as not “Christian” enough for their tastes. Lutherans are suspect, too…too close to Roman Catholicism for some.
MikeJ
@Yutsano:
I’m not convinced that’s true. IN the run up to ’08 all we heard about was how much the republicans hated McCain and how he didn’t have a chance and why is he wasting everybody’s time, right up until the primaries started.
Check out this graph from the Iowa electronic market, one of those “wisdom of the crowds” places.
Amir Khalid
@Villago Delenda Est:
So then, exactly which Christians are Christian enough for this kind of Christian?
IM
@Anya:
Now that is a judgment better left to others.
Omnes Omnibus
@Amir Khalid: Themselves.
Jay C
@Amir Khalid:
If you have to ask, then you’re obviously “not Christian enough”….
Yutsano
@MikeJ: The money guys and the less than crazy moderates had more of a voice back then. Then the Teahackitude struck its might blow for FREEDUMB!! and here we are. If the Tea Party is going to be the driving force they were in 2010 then honestly all bets are off. I have no idea what will happen with all that. The only way the money guys take any semblance of power back is at the convention.
@Jay C:
That would definitely be true for Amir, considering he’s of the Islamic persuasion. :)
Omnes Omnibus
@Yutsano:
Not according to some….
Mike G
@Alison:
If I’m feeling charitable I would say that Romney should be locked in a dog carrier on a roofrack and driven around all day.
He’s a corporate executive, so by the odds he’s a sociopathic asshole until proven otherwise.
Amir Khalid
@Omnes Omnibus:
That depends on whether “some” is in the mood to call me a maftoon.
Omnes Omnibus
@Amir Khalid: True, you do seem to have acquired a certain duality.
MikeJ
@Yutsano: The tea party drives media covereage because they carry guns and wear funny hats. They’re no more in charge of the republican party than they were in ’08, but everybody likes to let them pretend.
Six months from now Romney will be the one and only and everybody will say that they knew in the end the Republicans would pick the one halfway sane candidate. Heck, even the IEM seems to believe it now, and they’re always a trailing indicator (even though their purpose for existing is to make predictions the conventional wisdom won’t.)
Yutsano
@MikeJ:
I’d like to believe that, but their influence on primaries has already been demonstrated. Otherwise we most likely wouldn’t have a Senator Reid, a Senator Coons, or a Senator Bennett. The Teahacks chose their opponents, and they lost those races. If the nominee had been more moderate, they had a better chance of taking those seats, especially in the climate of 2010.
EDIT: I agree with you the candidate will most likely be Romney. I don’t see him doing it through the primaries though.
eemom
@Anya:
It is a well kept secret, but even the most cynical and jaded among us have feefees.
(God, I can’t believe I’m actually using that dumbass word.)
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: Clearly you are unhappy with me, since you are baiting the insulter of our delightful Amir Khalid. And while the Scottish play may indeed rule among the tragedies, keep me the hell away from participating in a production, thankyouverymuch.
Villago Delenda Est
@Amir Khalid:
Their particular creed, or something very close to it. For example, an emphasis on “works” as opposed to “faith” is HIGHLY suspect. It’s all basically rooted in Calvinism…most American Protestants come from that particular strain of Reformation era variants of Christianity. You see, “works” might involve separating you from your deity-given wealth. Can’t have THAT!
Josie
@Amir Khalid: Harry Reid is a Democrat. We actually do believe in the separation of church and state.
Chris
@Villago Delenda Est:
It also might involve the very, very, very uncomfortable acknowledgement that you need to do more than just kiss the Almighty’s ring and go “be my friend, God
father” in order to call yourself a Christian.The “salvation through faith, not works” doctrine is probably the easiest theology out there, all you need to do is join them and you’re one of the Chosen. It justifies not only their complete indifference to all the world’s problems, but also the tribal outlook that separates humans according to a binary “with us or against us” equation (no wonder those guys so often tend to be racists and nationalists as well).
gocart mozart
He should always be referred to by his full christian name, Herman “Crazy Bread” Cain.
Svensker
@Dougerhead:
Uh. OK. Good for you. Next time you walk into a synagogue you can strike up a discussion about St. Thomas Aquinas. That should go over real good.
Corner Stone
@Anya: this sounds like something aisce would say.
Of course, he’s a humorless both sides prick. So that says about you…
henqiguai
@Dougerhead (#123):
I’ve always maintained that Christianity was simply a radical off-shot of Judaism, since the rabbi Jesus of Nazareth was simply trying to clean up the then corrupt practices spreading throughout contemporary (to him) Judaic practices. Over the years mission creep set in leading to today’s Christianity.
Phylllis
@SiubhanDuinne: Totally off-topic–Where’d you eat?
Anne Laurie
@harlana:
Willard Romney considers his dog-on-the-roofrack story a funny, “humanizing” anecdote. He told it for the first time while running for governor, in a (wildly unsuccessful) attempt to prove his Regular-Guyness, and he could not understand why his handlers nearly shat themselves like the late Sheamus. As far as us outside observers can tell, Willard still thinks it’s a funny story: Dog gets strapped to the roofrack, for “efficiency”; dog beshits itself at 60mph; dad Willard “efficiently” (hand to goddess, he attributed it to his “MBA training“) hoses dog down at convenient service station and keeps on driving.
This being The Peoples’ Republic of Massachusetts, yes there were professionals who pointed out that this is standard behavior for familial abusers: torturing pets in front of the kids/wife to demonstrate what happens to those who don’t “behave”.
And yet, Willard “Mitt” Romney still doesn’t understand why us “Gentiles”… aka us “non-MBA poors”… willfully refuse to accept his God-ordained, HBS-certified stewardship!
Frankensteinbeck
Amir @144:
Your patience and good humor dealing with that qualify you to start your own religion.
AxelFoley
@RossInDetroit:
I only have one thing to say:
Jack be nimble, Jack be quick
Ooooooooooh
Take a ride on the West Coast kick
Ooooooooooh
Holiday Ro-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oad
Holiday Ro-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oad
Bubblegum Tate
@Yutsano:
Way back in 2008, Romney was an afterthought at best, and Ron Paul was considered too much of an extremist to even be allowed into the RNC. Ah, how much times have changed….
MacKenna
I can only understand this in the following context: the intense shittiness of the other candidates makes Cain seem a less shitty candidate.
As far as I’m concerned he is still complete and utter shit, unworthy of being liked by anyone who isn’t in that top 1%.
Eli Rabett
Let’s see, the guy gets rich off a company playing off a ethnic slur. . .
Anya
@eemom: I did not mean to hurt anyone’s feeling. Who would’ve thought BJ is full of delicate flowers.
@Corner Stone: you’re an irksome brawling scold.
Anya
@IM: I asked my friends and I was just quoting their text.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@Anya:
Awesome. And so civilized, too.
Amir Khalid
I’ve been looking through Herman Cain’s Wikipedia entry. That a man of his intelligence, education and accomplishments can still manage to show so much ignorance and bigotry — that can’t be for real. He’s smart and disciplined enough to do his homework. This has got to be an act he’s putting on for the campaign.
If I’m right, he’s a phony pandering to the Tea Party know-nothings, and he’s unfit to be president. On the other hand, if this is in fact the real Herman Cain, then I suspect dementia.
gelfling545
which, if you think about it, is no more improbable than all the rest of it. Once you’ve bought into virgin birth, miracles & resurrection why would coming to N America trouble you?
PeakVT
@Amir Khalid: Just because somebody has excelled in one way doesn’t mean they have taken the time to really understand anything else, or have an inclination to.
SiubhanDuinne
@Phylllis:
Thanks for asking. As it turned out, except for a very pretty, breezy, early morning, it just poured most of the day. Lots of standing water in the streets, occasional high winds — in other words, not a day for a pleasant stroll along River Street :-(
So I ended up eating very close to the hotel, at Bonefish. I like Bonefish, it’s extremely good for an upscale chain, but it wasn’t the unique Savannah food experience I hoped for. Oh well, there’s always lunch tomorrow before I head back, and I expect to be back for or five times in the next couple of years.
IOW, I’m saving all the restaurant recommendations from last night.
Corner Stone
@Anya: Wait a second. You stepped right on the dick of the entire “having fun here” premise. That wasn’t me. That was you.
If someone asked which entity in the Cole household was which member of The Beatles would you piss on that question too?
Anya
@Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason: From now on, I’ll only reply to corner stone with a Shakespearean insult.
@Amir Khalid: I think he’s playing a role. The field is so crowded in the Dem party so it’s more lucrative for him to be a “black republican”. The only problem is, you have to be a moral coward devoid of any conscience or principles and lack self-respect.
Corner Stone
@Anya:
Now we’re getting some where. At least have a little fun with it.
You’ll be married soon enough and have several years to make some man miserable for every second of his existence. At least here you can try a little something different once in a while.
MikeJ
@gelfling545:
Only fair. Xtians added 27 books of fanfic to the bible.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@Anya: Aha! I just looked up “Shakespeare Insults”. So that one was from “Taming of the Shrew”. No wonder it sounded so civilized.
Xecky Gilchrist
“When they ask me who’s the president of Ubeki-beki-beki-beki-stan-stan I’m going to say, you know, I don’t know. Do you know?”
I do! Celebrated as a great fighter-againster-of-terror by that guy who used to be preznit here in the U.S., can never remember his name, just like the Republicans can’t.
ETA: from the Wiki article, this was our kinda guy in the ‘stans under Bush: “The international community has repeatedly criticized the Karimov administration’s record on human rights and press freedom. In particular, Craig Murray, the British Ambassador from 2002 to 2004, described widespread torture, kidnapping, murder, rape by the police, financial corruption, religious persecution, censorship, and other human rights abuses. This included the case of Karimov’s security forces executing prisoners Muzafar Avazov and Khuzniddin Alimov by boiling them alive in 2002.”
priscianusjr
@Xecky Gilchrist:
Chauncey DeVega
@Anya:
How kind. Thanks. Always trying to cause trouble.