__
Congressman John Lewis is not as offended as he could certainly have chosen to be over the silly, ungracious, completely predictable “process committee” decision not to interrupt their meeting to allow him to speak:
Congressman John Lewis came out to Occupy Atlanta on Friday, October 7th in Woodruff Park. He even commented on the Atlanta General Assembly’s group consensus process saying “this is not something strange or out of the ordinary for me,” and he was “not at all” disappointed he wasn’t able to adress the Assembly. Video Colby Blunt
Congressman Lewis has been through much worse, and also has personal experience with the refined sensitivities of political process committees:
Historian Howard Zinn wrote: “At the great Washington March of 1963, the chairman of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee (SNCC), John Lewis, speaking to the same enormous crowd that heard Martin Luther King’s I Have a Dream speech, was prepared to ask the right question: ‘Which side is the federal government on?’ That sentence was eliminated from his speech by organizers of the March to avoid offending the Kennedy Administration. But Lewis and his fellow SNCC workers had experienced, again and again, the strange passivity of the national government in the face of Southern violence.”
And concerning the other Occupy/Together fooferaw of this weekend (dissected here earlier by Zandar), Suzy Khimm’s Wonkblog post “Conservative journalist says he infiltrated, escalated D.C. museum protest” is currently the top entry on the Washington Post‘s “Most Popular: Business” sidebar. Complete with cache link to Howley’s original article:
A conservative journalist has admitted to infiltrating the group of protesters who clashed with security at the Smithsonian’s National Air and Space Museum on Saturday — and he openly claims to have instigated the events that prompted the museum to close.
__
Patrick Howley, an assistant editor at the American Spectator, says that he joined the group under the pretense that he was a demonstrator. “As far as anyone knew I was part of this cause — a cause that I had infiltrated the day before in order to mock and undermine in the pages of The American Spectator,” Howley wrote. (The language in the story has since been changed without explanation.)…
Bill E Pilgrim
Hmm, you have an open thread on your blog. I think I’ll just pull at it a little, I’m always tempted by dangling open threads….. aggggh, it’s unraveling! Balloon-Juice is unraveling completely…. cat fur, dog food, old right wing pamphlets from 2004…. my god now it’s just a big pile on the floor.
Er, ahem. (Sheepishly slinking away, whistling)
Joey Maloney
Gee, if only they had spit on him instead…That’s how Real American (C) protestors greet their near Congressman.
tim howe
these are the same completely ridiculous types of half educated spoiled children that attacked and threatened this heroic man because he chose hillary in 2008.
he was right too btw, are you folks yet willing to amift this?
Politically Lost
Just think…this douche is admitting to be a provacteur as part of some fucked up homework assignment he gave himself at the American Spectator. If the fuckers that own this country decide they’ve had enough questions from the proles, the lengths they’ll go to shut it down will be extraordinary. And, it’ll probably start with nonsense like that…without the admission of the actors instigating riots.
Amir Khalid
John Lewis is nowhere near as offended by his treatment as you seem to be, Anne Laurie. If he didn’t ask to speak to the meeting, could it be, as this account has it, that he didn’t intend to speak? It was suggested at the meeting, somebody said let’s listen to him after we finish our business, he couldn’t stay for that. I see no disrespect toward Lewis here.
Lewis is wise, I think, to keep his eyes on the prize. He himself was there to listen and observe, not to show off. He saw a movement that knows how to organize itself, to take care of business first and not to let itself be distracted even by his eminence. Be guided by his example, and save your outrage for the 1%.
Amir Khalid
Somewhat off-topic, another pro-Occupy Wall Street column from Paul Krugman. That’s two in a row.
Arclite
As far as Howley’s little stunt goes, I guess you know that Zandar already covered it?
Mike D.
Second @Joey Maloney.
I don’t even get what the basis for the offense-taking is supposed to be. Even if they had said they were uninterested in hearing him speak. They have business to attend to; why would they necessarily drop everything to hear a Democratic Congressman speak? Why would we be taking offense on his behalf had they the declined?
goblue72
@Mike D.: Actual real life civil rights icon, leader and progressive Congressman shows up to offer some words of wisdom and self-absorbed hipster douche decides to throw a hissy-fit over “process.” Pretty easy to see why anyone without their heads up their butts would see that as a bit offensive. And douche-y.
The fact that said hipster douche also had a hipster douche beard was just icing on the cake.
Anne Laurie
@Amir Khalid: You’re right, Congressman Lewis does not need me to defend him. But it was an own-goal gaffe by “my” team, and I wish they hadn’t given our mutual enemies a chance to shake their heads over (progressive) kids these days…
@Arclite: Thank you for reminding me to add a link to Zandar’s post. I’m glad he had this in hand, and I thought it was an encouraging addition that eventhenotsoliberal WaPo is picking up Howley’s dishonesty. The more readers the better, yes?
Amir Khalid
@Anne Laurie:
No, not an own goal. No offense to Lewis was intended, none taken by him. It was seen as an own goal, but a lot of people got it wrong. This is why crowds don’t get to referee the game. If only you could do this in politics too.
“Kids these days” is the common grumble of (us) oldies everywhere, regardless of ideology. Maybe that’s what set all this off.
boss bitch
It doesn’t matter whether Rep. Lewis was offended or not. It was stupid. It was a seriously missed opportunity to hear
from someone who’s been there. Rep. Lewis is not a media whore unlike some others that have been given the opportunity to speak in front of other Occupy audiences. He’s not just some Democratic congressman looking to co-opt the movement.
I get that this movement doesn’t want to be co-opted but uh, have they seen the people that are speaking for them? This isn’t the first protest ever. There are people who have been there, done that and succeeded. Those people should be sought out and heard. Instead its just the usual line up of celebrity activists. When are they are going to get arrested?
That is all.
Carolinus
@Anne Laurie:
I have a hard time worrying too much about the latest Breitbart non-troversy, particularly when he’s all-of-a-sudden presenting himself as the defender of a civil rights icon (after previously spending so much time & effort smearing him).
harlana
oh well, while i’m disappointed (though not necessarily surprised from what i’m seeing so far), at least they chased off Geraldo.
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
All the shit that is going on and this keeps getting rehashed? I don’t man nuthin.
harlana
as demonstrations catch on in other places, i can say that there are some southern liberals who know their history better, here in SC, who would love to hear him speak! they would be thrilled. (but perhaps it’s just us old farts that appreciate civil rights leaders) Come back down see us some time, Congressman Lewis! You’ll get a better reception down here! Believe me, our compatriots are few and sparse.
WereBear
Mr WereBear looooooooooved that. Was a thing of beauty.
Samara Morgan
@Anne Laurie:
bulshytt, ‘sline.
it was not. You do not understand the concept of Anonymous.
Anonymous is not “your team.”
You are a co-traveler temporarily travelling on the same public transport–the internet…exactly the same as Lewis. And for only one leg of the journey.
But that is all that is required.
Get a clue.
JPL
Friday a march is planned in Atlanta with the union members participating. I heard a blurb on TV but didn’t hear all the details.
The Atlanta Pride parade featured John Lewis btw.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid: you also.
for example, Balloon Juice is: Assange, Manning and Wikileaks BAD, and occupy wallstreet GOOD.
Because the goals temporarily align.
But is #InvadeWallstreet “good”? Not to juicers. temporary alignment.
Invadewallstreet is a group of anonymous raiding (or spoof raiding) the NYSE web site with a DDOS… AS A REACTION to the NYPD pepperspray and arrests.
when i say group, i mean self-organizing sub-system.
what anonymous is saying to Lewis: fine, align yourself temporarily with our goals. but you dont get to hijack the public transport we are all travelling on for you personal agenda.
for you, Khalid, and dar ul Islam, this is particularily relevant. Students, islamists and copts temporarily aligned to overthrow Mubarak.
now that temporary coalition is breaking down, and the consent of governed is surfacing.
if you follow anonymous on twitter you can see parts of anonymous aggregating in support of the copts, parts in support of the students, parts in supports of the islamists. but the parts supporting the islamists are in arabic, and thus invisible to the west.
this is a GLOBAL phenomenon spawned by social media and the interwebz.
it is not going away.
Samara Morgan
@JPL: the unions are TEMPORARILY aligned with anonymous. Anonymous is a self-organizing system. There are no leaders to give Lewis permission, for example.
there is no ideology.
there are only emergent temporary goals.
the clearest example of this is OpFacebook.
An AnonymousIRC tweet said– we do not support OpFacebook. We do not not-support OpFacebook.
THE
The importance of the protests is that they remind the political class that there is an important and large constituency that is not hostage to Finance, and has no sympathy with it.
I am much more doubtful that the political class gives a damn about Anonymous. They are tiny numerically, and are mainly talking to their own circle.
I suspect to make an impact you have to protest in the streets, not on your computer screen.
I could imagine that computer activism has more impact in countries where freedom of assembly does not exist. But in USA a large protest march is still a large protest march. Voters out there and visible.
SRW1
I would venture a bold guess here: A publicity lusting dude probably ain’t gonna make a successful agent provocateur if he can’t keep his yap shut until it’s all over.
arguingwithsignposts
@Samara Morgan:
You are such an idiot.
Anonymous is not OccupyWallStreet or OccupyTogether or the Arab Spring protesters. And script kiddie DDOS attacks on nyse.com isn’t going to do a damn thing.
or, as @THE said above:
Samara Morgan
what Lewis COULD do….is stand up and start speaking.
that is anonymousform.
emergent behavior.
no one needs “anonymous’s permission” to speak.
Stand up and start speaking. march. raid. write.
vox populi, vox anon
Samara Morgan
@arguingwithsignposts:
those emergent subsystems are all part of the Anonymous paradigm. The drivers of the Arab Spring are the same drivers of occupy wallstreet and wikileaks.
vox populi, vox anon
did you watch the video?
arguingwithsignposts
@Samara Morgan:
Lewis has done more in the last 8 hours, while sleeping, for progressive policy than you’ve done in your entire life, dipweed.
Samara Morgan
@THE: I could imagine that computer activism has more impact in countries where freedom of assembly does not exist.
truedat.
but can i remind you of how OBL spoofed the market immediately after 911 with rumorchatter of public-transport attacks and dirty bombs?
perhaps InvadeWallStreet is just going for the psychological effect.
netwar psy-ops.
:)
Bill E Pilgrim
What’s astonishing is too see how when a genuine grass roots protest movement starts, everyone, from the news media right on down, first tripping over themselves to dismiss them and/or claim that “there’s no message”, and then maybe a week later tripping over themselves to claim ownership and/or tell you what the message is.
Take any issue facing us, any votes pending, any debates before Congress: No one, at least with half a brain, would have the slightest difficulty knowing which way to vote or which side to come down on if they wanted to take the OWS protests into account.
Samara Morgan
@arguingwithsignposts: So?
like always, im giving the SCIENCE perspective.
if Lewis wants to be part of occupyatlanta, he should just stand up and speak. march. occupy.
vox populi, vox anon
arguingwithsignposts
@Samara Morgan:
that word does not mean what you think it means.
SiubhanDuinne
::mutters to self through clenched teeth::
donotfeedtroll.donotfeedtroll.donotfeedtroll.donotrepeatdoNOTfeedtroll.dontfeedthetroll.justdont.dontdoit.do.not.feed.the.troll.
Gosh, self-control can be hard.
Omnes Omnibus
@arguingwithsignposts: It does if you add fiction to it.
SiubhanDuinne
:: mutters to self through clenched teeth::
donotfeedthetroll
donotfeedthetroll
donotfeedthetroll
donotrepeatdoNOTfeedthetroll
do.not.feed.the.troll.
justdont
dontdoitdontdontdont
::self-control is HARD::
jeff
@Samara Morgan:
I guess very temporarily.
Samara Morgan
@Bill E Pilgrim:
exactly what AL and Cole did.
orly?
So what do you propose as an alternative to “freed” market capitalism?
Samara Morgan
@jeff: that is the strength of the Anonymous paradigm.
temporary goals are the attractor for outgroups.
:)
Mark S.
TPM has been running some of American Family Association’s Bryan Fisher’s greatest hits:
Singing God Bless America during the seventh inning stretch has prevented more terrorist attacks.
The Bible tells us that grizzly bears are a curse upon mankind.
Of course, this nut’s endorsement is highly sought after by GOP candidates.
Samara Morgan
@arguingwithsignposts: sure it does.
Anonymous is a self-organizing system.
Science doesnt mean what YOU want it to mean.
Plastic IQ, we-are-all-the-same and unicorn farts.
Samara Morgan
@Mark S.: actually prairie dogs, skunks, and porcupines are a curse upon mankind.
As is the AKC.
arguingwithsignposts
Nevermind. DNFTFT
Samara Morgan
@Omnes Omnibus: you, unlike AWS, are intelligent enough to “get” me.
so i give you no quarter.
engagé…parry huit…redoublet
JPL
@SiubhanDuinne: hahaha..Even though I have company this week, I’m hoping for a few days of rain. The Woodruff Park campers probably disagree with me though.
Mark S.
@Samara Morgan:
Fuck you, prairie dogs are cute.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Samara Morgan:
Entirely possible, but my statement wasn’t aimed at anyone, not anyone here, or John Lewis, or the guy with the “block”, just a statement of what I saw in general.
What are you talking about? What I wrote was that it’s hard to imagine someone voting on almost any (not all but almost) issue before Congress and not knowing which side that OWS would want you to take, if you wanted to take what they wanted into account.
Contrary to the “No one knows what they want!” meme.
Samara Morgan
@Mark S.: they are also vectors for bubonic plague.
give me your address– i’ll livetrap some for you.
:)
Samara Morgan
@Bill E Pilgrim: so what do the owies want (in your opinon)?
regulations?
pretty steep hillclimbing in free market america.
SiubhanDuinne
@JPL:
I’m in Savannah, driving back this afternoon, in what promises to be a windy downpour the entire way. Am not looking forward to it.
THE
what do the owies want
Tyro
If OWS fails/implodes, I suspect that the moral preening over “we will not be co-opted!” is going to be the cause. The sort of people who join “policy committees” are people like Dennis from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. But I also suspect the movement is popular enough that the Dennises in it are going to get overwhelmed.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Samara Morgan: My opinion is that while writing down “OWS wants the following” followed by a list may be difficult and not very useful, in application it wouldn’t really be very mysterious. It wouldn’t necessarily follow any party lines, especially these days, which is one of the reasons the talking heads are having their little brains so confused by it all.
For instance “regulations”, well, if they’re regulations that tell you you can’t have sex with someone you love then I imagine most of the people in OWS would encourage you to vote no. If the regulations have to do with limiting the ability of banks to engage in risky casino-style investing, then probably it would lean another way.
It’s sort of like the line about porn from Potter Stewart, “I know it when I see it”. The point really is that any hand-wringing about “But what do they want??” is just an attempt to avoid having to listen to them.
Overall, as I said at the start, it’s really fascinating to see everyone so puzzled by a genuinely real protest movement and the panic about trying to either classify it or own it… or disown it… like the old joke about some animal seeing a new creature and saying “What is it, do I fuck it, eat it, talk to it… what?”
I actually can’t remember what joke that was, it might be several mixed together.
It’s really the opposite of “the tea party” in every way. In that case, the message was utterly incoherent (“Keep your government hands off my Medicare!”) but what you were supposed to think about it was clear (grass roots, populist, anti-government, poor people tired of being screwed, etc) In this case, what it’s against is perfectly clear, and no one in power knows what they’re supposed to think its message is.
Fear will do that.
AA+ Bonds
Anne Laurie takes a break from reprinting Dave Weigel articles (!) to try and kneecap the OWS movement.
People, this is very simple:
1) There is a reason these gatherings want to hold themselves independent of Congress.
2) John Lewis understands these reasons better than the OWS critics, and better than the poster here, because of personal experience.
3) John Lewis was not “not as offended as he could have been”. He was actually not offended in the slightest according to his statement, because he understands exactly why grassroots organizers should defer to democratic decision-making.
4) This is a right-wing propaganda story, spread by right-wing plants, and blowing it up like it matters is doing the work of Karl Rove, against the wishes of John Lewis.
That is all, y’all play nice.
Samara Morgan
@AA+ Bonds:
hahaha
jeff
I’m just glad that people like Jesse are on MTP now and that things are being discussed from a working/middle class perspective for once.
I’m completely uninterested in what Anonymous may have done in the past or what they claim to want to do in the future.
Samara Morgan
@jeff: because you only align with Anonymous on one facet, occupywallstreet.
do you align with Iran, jeff?
check this out.
gttim
I am in Atlanta and was looking forward to the OccupyAtlanta stuff. Then I read the Facebook page of the OccupyAtlanta group. I saw this “over organization” taking place right away. and realized it was going to be a farce of sorts. They look rather bad. (And as somebody holding a math degree, I hate hand waving!) I will probably still try to make a march, take some pics and support them, but I will not make an effort to stay out there with those folks.
Samara Morgan
@THE: the owies want more fundage for the SEC for one thing.
Samara Morgan
@gttim: if occupyatlanta tries for overorganization, it will atrit and die off.
do you understand anything about self-organizing systems, as a mathist?
Samara Morgan
@jeff:
that is the power of Anonymous, jeff.
they can incorporate fractional alignments.
THE
@Samara Morgan:
I think bring back Glass-Steagall would be my first demand. I believe the SEC is so compromised by regulatory capture, I’m not sure it is worth saving in its present form. I could be wrong.
Samara Morgan
@Tyro: you cannot co-opt Anonymous.
you can align with the incremental goals is all.
Samara Morgan
@THE: bring back glass steagall is also a goal. they mainly want to give the SEC more fundage to pursue corporate criminals.
PhoenixRising
Lewis has done more in the last 8 hours, while sleeping, for progressive policy than you’ve done in your entire life, dipweed.
Times eleventy.
Also, if John Lewis (regardless of the office he holds at present, he’s John Lewis) showed up for my process committee, I’d stop what I was doing to ask him to speak a few words of support for the cause if he felt so moved.
But that is because unlike the right wing jerks fluffing this story OR OWS organizers, I have experience leading a long- game, consensus based action.
What I know is that having someone who is a seasoned leader from the movement raise spirits is worth more than any dedication to formal process. But that’s not something you can learn without sleeping outside on the ground waiting to be arrested, evidently.
THE
Nah. He doesn’t know his history. US protest movements have played a large and honorable political role throughout US history. The Constitution was designed to accommodate it.
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: Porcupines are very tasty.
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: I would also want a ban on all forms of derivative trading.
slightly_peeved
Lewis probably gets Reagan’s 11th commandment. Besides which, he has to deal with Republicans like Steve King (R-Belfast) every day. I’m guessing some hipster wanting to finish his scheduled meeting doesn’t even faze him after dealing with the assholes in Congress.
geg6
@PhoenixRising:
And this, too. Also. Times eleventy hundred.
Amir Khalid
I’m glad I stepped away from my laptop after commenting, and got to skip m_c’s me-fest.
RalfW
I demand that order be restored, that lawbreakers such as Howley feel the full weight of the justice system!
Really, is there any reason why Patrick Howley can’t be charged with unlawful entry, or whatever other crime the law-and-order rock-ribbed conservatives have dreamed up for the left-wing rabble?
He admits, in writing, to forcible entry with intent to commit mayhem. Easy as spray cheese to charge him with a crime. Apply their conservative rules to themselves. I know, hahahah.
eclecticbrotha
@Amir Khalid: Nothing self-righteous or condescending about this at all:
The video clip of he meeting is horrible PR for the movement. Your asshat comments don’t help your cause, either. Maybe you should try working on your people skills before you start claiming you speak for the so-called 99%?
Gilles de Rais
The ratfuckers are out in force, infiltrating our movement. Instead of doing anything effective about it, we’ll meditate on it during tomorrow’s process meeting.
I think I’ll donate both my kidneys so I don’t have to see how this ends.
Amir Khalid
@eclecticbrotha:
What have I said that is so awful? All I did was take John Lewis at his word.
gelfling545
I have the greatest respect for Congressman Lewis and would walk a mile barefoot to hear him speak. I do, however, understand the protesters not stopping everything to speak to him. First, he is a congressman, a group that has been notoriously unhelpful lately; also, as I suspect the Congressman might agree, this is their time and their place. The time will come to speak with government representatives but it hasn’t come yet.
eemom
@eclecticbrotha:
oh yes. “People skills” abound in that comment of yours. Belligerent bullying of supporters is JUST what “the movement” needs
Asshole.
Bruce S
#3 – tim howe – “Lewis chose Clinton in 2008”
Sorry to connect you to reality, Tim, but Lewis – as a key “superdelegate” had shifted his support to Obama by mid-February of ’08.
Amir Khalid
@eclecticbrotha:
I am watching the Youtube video. I see nothing that reflects badly on Occupy Atlanta. No disrespect is shown to John Lewis at any time — quite the contrary. The general assembly debates whether to ask him to speak, and in the end it agrees to ask him to speak after it concludes its business. A perfectly reasonable decision, made through an orderly process, which unfortunately doesn’t work for Lewis because he can’t stay.
Lewis didn’t make a big deal of it because there was nothing to make a big deal of. It simply doesn’t make sense to be more outraged than he over this.
eemom
@Amir Khalid:
I would wager that John Lewis, after leaving the rally, devoted to this matter less than one-gazillionth the amount of attention than has been collectively invested in producing this clusterfucked thread.
ETA: come to think of it, there’s an Onion headline lurking in here somewhere: “Outraged Blog Commenters Express Outrage Over Outrage to Civil Rights Icon Who Wasn’t Outraged”
karen marie
@arguingwithsignposts: I read that Anonymous denied the threat of a DOS attack on the NYSE. It was also pointed out how pointless it would be to do such a thing on a holiday when, although the exchange is open, trading is very slow.
eclecticbrotha
@eemom: oh yes. “People skills” abound in that comment of yours. Belligerent bullying of supporters is JUST what “the movement” needs
Asshole.
Amir Khalid
@eclecticbrotha:
To whom did I condescend, and how?
AA+ Bonds
Here’s the antidote to this worrywart post, by Joan Walsh of all people, explaining why John Lewis isn’t offended in the slightest, and supports Occupy Atlanta.
Among other things this came down to a scheduling conflict: they didn’t want to break up their planning stage (something crucial to organization) to ask him speak out of order, and he had somewhere to be and couldn’t stick around to speak afterward.
John Lewis understands the hell out of democracy in activism and I think we should perhaps side with him on this – that is, in favor of Occupy Atlanta instead of against them.
AA+ Bonds
@PhoenixRising:
Yeah, I’d get over this whole “I’m a real professional demonstrator and you’re not” deal if I were you. It’s pretty unappealing and you know better than maybe anyone else here that dictating process and tactics to another group invites failure.
I understand that if you were King of OWS things would go differently, but they ain’t you. They found it important to preserve the planning process as scheduled, and they had a lot of good reasons for that.
AA+ Bonds
The bottom line is: how many more fake stories of left vs. left will the Republicans create before the left catches on?
The John Lewis “story” (in which the important person supposedly offended by all this is actually not offended at all) is exactly the same as the American Spectator/Patrick Howley scandal – they’re both attempts by the Right to pit the Left against itself.
It seems one of them worked on you, Anne Laurie, and one didn’t. That ain’t bad but you have to improve those odds.
Amir Khalid
@AA+ Bonds:
I mentioned Walsh’s blog post in the previous thread that mentioned the John Lewis/Occupy Atlanta “incident”, and the only reaction was “yeah, right.”
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid: i just explained how occupywallstreet and anonymous work. you could learn something if you read the links.
it wasnt a “me-fest.”
what is going on Egypt is very interesting.
the students, democratists, and the islamists and the copts aligned for a while in their joint interest to get rid of Mubarak.
Now there are riots because the minority copts want to overturn a law that forbids building illegal churches and the majority of egyptians do not want that.. Shariah is part of the current egyptian constitution.
actually retaining Mubarak was in the copts interest, not deposing him.
because now the consent of the governed in a majority islamic state is going to screw them.
yet the christians are the law breakers, building an illegal church.
if the power of Wallstreet is broken, we will see the same things here. temporary alliances fade in the interest of tribes.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid: and i doubt many juicers will endorse this.
Samara Morgan
@karen marie: would you liek SOMEMORE?
anonymous is comprised of different emergent movements…..there is no fixed ideology.
Amir Khalid
Sweetheart, with you it is always a me-fest. In this case you are going off-topic and drawing deep connections between discrete events, happening on different continents, that have only surface similarities.
Does Anonymous itself claim what you’re claiming about its connection with these events, or is it just you? What, pray tell, do your hero Julian Assange and Wikileaks have to do with the social and political forces driving either Occupy Wall Street or the Arab Spring? The long-standing bad blood between Egypt’s Muslims and Copts is cause for concern, not least because Muslims oppressing religious minorities is deeply un-Islamic, but what has it to do with the post topic?
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid: OpOccupywallstreet started as an Anonymous franchise. like OpBart and OpFacebook. do you want the links?
The Arab Spring and Anonymous are driven by the same engine– social media and teh interwebz.
And this is what Anonymous claims.
the copts are protesting an egyptian law that requires the President to approve new church construction. the muslims are enforcing that law with citizen action by burning down the new construction.
the poor copt fools thought removing Mubarak would grant them freedom of speech to proselytize and build churches.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid:
ORLY? the law against building churches is shariah law.
muslims do not “oppress religious minorities”….they oppress proselytizers.
Proselytizing the poor and ignorant is a form of compulsion in religion.
And the Prophet gave instructions on how to deal with Proselytizers.
Arclite
@Anne Laurie:
Absolutely, Howley and O’Keefe are slimey little fuckers. The more people know about them the better.
Sorry for late resp, I was just off to bed when I commented last night…
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan:
Exact surah. Now. Or GTFO.
Amir Khalid
@Samara Morgan:
Here you are failing to distinguish between technology and how people use it.
Amir Khalid
@Samara Morgan:
The Anonymous video you link to specifically disclaims affiliation to any person or other movement.
By the way, I find your gloating over Muslims oppressing a minority religious group — conduct that brings shame upon the ummah — deeply offensive. The building of Coptic churches, for Copts to worship in, is not proselytizing. And as Yutsano asks, do you have a scriptural citation for your claim that this church-building violates Shariah law?
Yutsano
@Amir Khalid: She won’t answer. Or she’ll dismiss the question because I didn’t answer hers exactly as I wanted her to. She wants validation, not debate.
LT
@AA+ Bonds:
thank you a grillion. He was ASKED to speak, and it had to be later than he could. This is manufactured outrage crap by ppl who have long demonstrated they love punching EMOPROGS!. Fuck em with razor wire.
Her’s a recording of John Lewis explaining what happened, explaining that he understood and supported it, explaining that he and his fellow activists did similar things in days past, and explaining that he supports OccATL 100%.
http://podcasts.cnn.net/cnn/services/podcasting/audio/interviews/cnninterviewsa1009.mp3
Fuck em with razor wire.
Mike D.
To my knowledge, no Occupy gathering has yet allowed a sitting national officeholder to address a general assembly. This independence is a critical thing to preserve. This movement stands apart from our political system and says that it has systematically failed. That means John Lewis too. It means people who have the right intentions and have fought the good fight but lost. They tried bu they failed. I’m not saying this s an absolute fact, but trying to describe the point that Occupy, in my view, is trying to make: where its unique value is. I can’t think of anything that would actually undermine the potential of this moment more than if a major Occupy gathering elevated a sitting Congressman to the dais and cheered his rousing words. I support that Democrats that fight for working people like John Lewis, but this just simply isn’t his movement. He is institutionally estranged from it. If there’s a twinge of wistfulness for him in facing this fa t about the path he’s chosen, it should be one filled with pride for what he’s done in his life, and what he sees now, finally, following in his footsteps. These people are his children, but he can’t go where they’re going today, not if he wants them to remain true to who they are. I think he made a mistake going to the gathering. He has to understand: this moment is a statement by the people taking note of their abandonment by the institutions of the establishment. John Lewis is a member of Congress – exactly one of these institutions. he has to understand the institutional imperatives of this moment. And I think he does.
Occupy Atlanta probably didn’t ask him to wait to address them with all this in mind, but I think it is very important and appropriate that the result of their decision was that he ultimately didn’t do so.
Omnes Omnibus
@Mike D.: How does the fact that they did invite Lewis to speak change your stance? Also, Lewis “fought the good fight but lost?” How do you figure?
THE
I believe Egypt traditionally follows the Maliki school of jurisprudence. I’m not sure how that bears on this particular question. Outside my knowledge or interest.
Mike D.
@Omnes Omnibus:
Nothing I wrote is affected by that fact, if you read carefully. The desire to invite such an esteemed organizer to speak is understandable, especially in light of inevitable response like this (from supporters, no less! Imagine f they really had simply declined!). It remains important that it did not come to pass, and the reasons not to have asked him to speak more important than the ones that led them to ultimately do so.
THE
@Samara Morgan:
I fear you may be right.
This is why I prefer secular dictators to theocratic democracy – Why in general secular is more important to me than democratic.
Perhaps the time has come for the Copts to finally leave Egypt. Even though the ties are so deep, and arguably they are the original Egyptians.
FWIW. I would be happy if my country gave them refuge.
THE
This is also the reason why the framers of the US Constitution had it right, IMHO.
They left the choosing of governments to democracy, but they placed separation of church and state in the Constitution — Where it was somewhat protected from the tyranny of the majority.
Triassic Sands
@goblue72:
Holy shit! A beardist. What next?
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: @Amir Khalid:
/yawn
dont need one. its islamic law.
the egyptian constitution.
since neither Khalid or I are qualled as islamic jurisprudents, egyptian LAW is the rule.
their country their rules, right?
why are you so invested in trying to prove that muslims don’t hate the Proselytizers, yut, khalid?
During the caliphate christians and jews could be citizens…they just could not proselytize or build churches without permission from the Defender of the Faithful.
and christian churches cant be built in egypt without the permission of the president.
that is a LAW.
their country, their laws….their ISLAMIC laws.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid:
Sure it is. Like blaspheming is proselytizing. And building churches without presidential permission is illegal according to egyptian law. the jurisprudent reason is that churches are proselytizing and proselytizing the poor and ignorant is forbidden by the Noble Quran.
im not gloating. im pointing out that the alliance of copts and islamists has ended. they were fellow travellers until the overthrow of Mubarak.
BJ is temporarily aligned with occupywallstreet in the same fashion.
Amir Khalid
@Samara Morgan:
Took you a while to come up with that weak sauce. You’re citing Egyptian law — not Quranic scripture as you were challenged to do.
Your position on the Copts is that they were useful to tme Muslim majority when it wanted to overthrow Mubarak, and once that was done, it was okay to resume oppressing them. That is a cynical and amoral position.
That jurisprudent reason you cite doesn’t make sense, even if it is the official reasoning Egyptian law. By that reasoning, any non-Muslim house of worship is a base for proselytizing. Are you stating that as the Coptic population grows in Egypt (you know, they do breed just like other people) their human right to have enough churches — and it is a human right, whatever you may cite to the contrary — should be subject to an outside veto?
In your earlier comments, you seem to argue that social media and the Internet in general somehow belong to Anonymous. No, they don’t. You also seem to argue that certain groups that gather and organize themselves by those means are thus affiliated with Anonymous. No, they aren’t.
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan:
You proved my point. You really don’t know what you’re talking about.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid:
no i didnt say that. im sayin the internet and social media spawned anonymous, and the Arab Spring…and its the same paradigm.
‘zactly. like in KSA the law is that any christian service held in an “unapproved” facility is proselytizing. for example 300 philipino guest workers did jail time for holding an illegal mass in their hotel.
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: i know what im talking about.
you and khalid do not.
and when i point out your past errors, AL or someone just deletes my comment.
not a fair debate at all.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid:
challenged to do?
im not a jurist. Egyptian law is islamic jurisprudence, the message of the Magnificent Quran MADE INTO LAW. im also citing SAUDI law.
the egyptian law in question STATES no new churches can be built without presidential approval. the copts felt participating in the Tahir revolution would give them a pass on illegal activity like new construction because they aligned with the islamists on overthrowing him.
No i do not. I never said “affiliated.” Isomorphic and enabled by social media and the internet like Anonymous. It is the same emergent paradigm, a self-organizing system..
this is bulshytt. you are puttting stuff i never said in my mouth, and AL deletes my rebuttals if she deems them “attacks” on you and yut.
Unjust censorship.
Samara Morgan
And here yut.
All about tasfir.
The realized word of Allah the compassionate the caring mandates only TRAINED islamic scholar-jurists can do quranic exegesis.
The reason for this is to impose a sort of memetic hygiene on the islamic sacred texts, so that there is no equivalent of christian snakehandlers or shakers in Islam.
THE
My understanding is that Sharia (in all four of the widely-accepted Sunni traditions of jurisprudence) is based on Quranic exegesis in part, but also the Sunnah or examples drawn from their prophet’s own life. There is a whole corpus of literature that provides information about this.
So asking for a Quaranic reference to justify a law in Sharia is missing the point. There is a considerable literature that needs to be mastered by Islamic jurists. Not just the Quran.
Much more here. (Wikipedia)
THE
@Samara Morgan:
Please allow me to be a professional cynic here:
The true purpose of legalism is to create a professional class of Lawyers, whose sole purpose is to raise Law to a high mystique, so that non-lawyers are reduced to a state of helplessness when confronted by the arcane complexity of the law.
This way we are permanently dependent on lawyers to interpret the law that they invented (in the politician phase of their life-cycle). This helps to justify the entrance fees for the best Law schools.
The primary purpose of the law is thus to provide profitable employment for lawyers. (And metamorphosed lawyers, known as politicians and judges).
Lawyers are thus the larval stage of Judges and Politicians. Thus is formed the closed cycle-of-being known as ‘Law’.
It is one of the lower forms of knowledge — Far below Natural Science on the scale of enlightenment.
Amir Khalid
@THE:
Don’t you know that m_c is the most Muslimestest of all the commenters here on Balloon Juice? Definitely more so than that West-pandering maftoon Amir Khalid. Her word on Islam is not to be contradicted. She insists that Shariah law is based directly and solely on the Quran. When asking her to cite the Quran to prove her notions about Shariah law, Yutsano and I are only playing by her rules.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid: at least im not a TAME muslim.
Dont you know the rules for tasfir? I thought you claimed to be a muslim.
takfir me all you want, Khalid.
Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji’un and i’ll leave the rest to Allah.
:)
THE
@Amir Khalid:
Ah. I see.
Samara Morgan
@THE: Sure, secularism is the next evolutionary stage in evo theory of culture….
but secularism requires a LOT of substrate.
IQ, education, and environment.
or actually all 4 paths of heredity; genetic, epigentic, behavioral and symbolic.
but secularism has no killer app.
the EGT “killer app” of xianity is proselytization– the EGT “killer app” of islam is resistance to proselytization.
Samara Morgan
@THE:
no you dont.
THE
No it’s largely an empirical observation. It was a theory in the 19th century. Now we can see that all “locomotive economies” are secular. There are no exceptions.
I think it may look that way to Americans, but globally there are two factors that I can identify in the data. Secularism is associated with a) high per-capita income based on production and b) A well-developed social welfare system. USA is less secular than Europe because the social welfare system is weaker. The insecurity this generates both feeds religiosity and encourages dependency on community-based welfare–like churches.
As for IQ again that is the experience of Americans, but it does not apply in Europe where secularism is becoming widespread in all social classes.
No the killer ap is scientific/technological/economic leadership. The USA is the exception that proves the rule. The secular US constitution permits the elites to be secular even in a religious polity. Also USA has up till now attracted and kept a lot of foreign educated and foreign born elites because of the higher elite rewards and income inequality. So the brain drain has allowed the US to keep its scientific leadership despite the low penetration of secular values in US population. I believe this is changing now. Asian elites are increasingly going home after higher education.
Samara Morgan
@THE:
oh yes, that is why we will be buying j-wombs from the japanese for the next half-century, lol.
wake up and smell the coffee, Spock.
We begger’d ourselves for FUCKING NOTHING.
We tried to something that couldn’t be done.
THE
You’ll have to unpack that last comment for me M_C.
I really can’t figure it out. Too cryptic.
Remember I don’t agree with your simplistic understanding of the global economic crisis.
Perhaps this is not the place to discuss this.
Too long too far off topic.