The silliness that is the effort to turn the “Gun Walker/Operation Fast and Furious” poutrage from the right into Eric Holder’s head on a pike (and a space reserved on the GOP Lannister clan’s ramparts for President Obama) is nothing more than the usual selective amnesia, considering the program to “walk” firearms across the Mexican border in order to track their routes through the drug cartels started with…you guessed it…Dubya and friends.
TPM has obtained the documents relating to another Bush-era ATF operation (on top of Operation Wide Receiver) which deployed the “gun walking” tactic. The development was first reported by Pete Yost of the Associated Press.
In fact, ATF officials wrote in 2007 that the gun walking tactic had “full approval” of the U.S. Attorney’s Office being run by an interim Bush appointee and that the U.S. Embassy in Mexico was “fully on-board.”
Under DOJ policy, illicit arms shipments are supposed to be intercepted whenever possible. But the emails show that just like in Operation Fast and Furious, official planned to allow guns to “walk” across the border and into Mexico in an attempt to identify traffickers higher up in the operation (rather than low ranking “straw purchasers,” who are difficult to prosecute thanks to the lack of an anti-trafficking gun law).
On Sept. 27, 2007 — when the Justice Department was reeling from the resignation of former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales — ATF agents in Phoenix and Mexico were conducting partial surveillance of suspects who purchased numerous weapons at a federally licensed firearms dealership.
After they watched the group purchase 19 weapons on Sept. 21 and 24 and additional weapons on Sept. 27, they watched as the weapons crossed the border into Mexico.
So yeah, the Bushies did this not once, but twice: once with Wide Reciever under Gonzo, and now with this second program under interim AG Pete Keisler and Gonzo’s replacement, Michael Mukasey. It was only under Holder some 3+ years later did people come forward to say that all of a sudden the program was somehow an issue, and it was only after the GOP took control of the House earlier this year. Now, the same program that was run by the ATF with no problem for years suddenly turned into President Obama’s Katrinagatewhatever (the same exact argument can be made for Solyndra).
Republicans didn’t care when the program was running under Bush. All of a sudden, House Republicans are spending all their time building idiotic politics like this into “Obama scandals” when they should be working on improving the economy and creating jo…you know I can’t even type that with a straight face anymore, they just hate President Obama so much they’ll try to throw Bush-era federal employees and law enforcement under the bus to target the President.
Even worse is our lovely “liberal” media which has really dropped the ball on both Solyndra and Fast and Furious.
Worthless assholes, all of them.
Mark K
The media didn’t “drop the ball” and stop repeating such nonsense.
They are paid not to pick up the ball in the first place.
gene108
The media is a dictation service for the powerful. I was listening to NPR in the car and they had segment start out with, I paraphrase, the struggles reporters face in deciding how to cover the occupy Wall Street movement.
The job of reporters is to cover things as they happen. It’s why you become a reporter.
Get facts. Summarize the facts. Report.
Since there isn’t a clear narrative to frame the Occupy Wall Street movement, reporters struggle on how to
framereport it.Also, too when will Darrel Issa do his job and demand copies of the Obama’s Christmas card list, Sasha and Malia’s homework, and anything else that can link President Obama or be insinuated to link President Obama to unAmerican and impeachable offenses.
The fact that it has taken Issa nearly a year, after gaining his chairmanship, to find scandals – and relatively weak sauce scandals at that – to hang over Obama’s head must have right-wingers furious.
Yeah, Solyndra and the gun deals will get some mileage in wingnut circles, but I don’t see it making a dent in broader politics, the way Whitewater got a life of its own.
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
Head on a “pike”. Northern or Walleye?
wilfred
I’m lost here. So the Democrats didn’t complain when the Republicans did it? Is that it? So now the Republicans are hypocrites because they are complaining when the Deomcrats do it?
That’s it? What about what the rightness/wrongness and consequences of this? Or does that not matter at all anymore? So if Obama is beating the drums for war against Iran – he is – it doesn’t matter because the Republicans did it with Iraq.
This is one of the stupidest, pravda like posts I’ve ever seen here. Critical thinking, please.
Villago Delenda Est
Small dick compensating wingtards…lying pieces of shit.
Who would have ever imagined such a thing?
El Cid
Part of the reason for programs like “Fast & Furious” is the complete uncooperativeness of those poor, oppressed gun shops and gun dealers of answering the most basic ATF questions about the most extreme customers obviously raising great suspicions.
The FBI takedown a couple of years ago of a gun shop and dealers in an undercover operation really pissed a lot of 2nd Amendmentist pro-terrorists.
Guns shops were refusing to cooperate with ATF requests that they fill out a form to let the ATF know if someone made large or repeated purchases of weapons. It’s illegal, by the way, to buy from a gun shop for the purposes of resale.
When the FBI operation went down, there was one gun shop who sold about 60 AK-47’s to the same guy within roughly 4 months.
But the gun shop assholes argued that filling out a simple one page form on something this suspicious would just be too hard and would oppress the small bidnessman further.
cleek
@wilfred:
huh? your comment is the first instance of the word “Democrats” on this page.
seems to me the post is all about Republicans not caring when W’s DOJ was doing exactly what they’re upset that Obama’s DOJ is doing.
Villago Delenda Est
@El Cid:
OK, this is really somewhat of a false concern.
You see, this guy does a lot of shooting at the rifle range, and he can’t seem to figure out how to pop out the magazine, so he has to buy a whole new AK-47 for each 30 rounds.
It’s quite simple, really…
BGinCHI
NRA + Lobby Dollars + War on Drugs = What Could Possibly Go Wrong?
I can’t believe we’re the most powerful country in the world.
Villago Delenda Est
The ad for this page is for the “Concealed Carry Report”.
“Do you know your rights?”
Gotta love the Googleads!
wilfred
@cleek:
My comment is about the thing itself, which affects everybody, including me, of course. Don’t even get me started about Mukasey.
If it’s just wanking about Republican hypocrisy, fine. But the thing continues, doesn’t it? What about that?
Oliver
The cases are not identical. For one thing, the Bush-era cases were stopped as soon as they were brought to the attention of Bush officials in DOJ and ATF.
Cap'n Magic
oliver: Got a link to backup your assertion?
SW
By far the dumbest fucking things that Obama has done was uncritically continuing Bush policies with the vast amount of hold-over burrowed in Bush administration die hards. How could he have expected anything but disaster from those fucking idiots?
Observer
Zandar, it doesn’t matter who first did it and it doesn’t matter who in the media did or did not report it, the fact of the matter is the program is wrong in all its aspects, it needs to be stopped and whomever was complicit should be prosecuted.
JPL
@wilfred: Wouldn’t it be nice for MSM to actually report about the programs. That’s what I thought the post was about.
BTW, Did you know that Obama has tsars?
Hill Dweller
It would be nice if the ATF could get a permanent head/director, but the NRA(and their sock puppets in the republican party) say we can’t.
gogol's wife
Joe Nocera had a good piece about Solyndra in the Times. He’s kind of a voice crying in the wilderness, though, as he was about the Republican hostage-taking (which he ended up apologizing for, unfortunately).
JWL
God forefend the GOP attempts to find the whereabouts of the $18 BILLION that went missing in Iraq.
kdaug
Ditto. Enough. I’m aiming to keep my next BP spike on hold until Monday.
In the meantime, I’ve set a roast in the crock pot for 8 hours and am mulling aug upgrades for DX:HR. Advice would be appreciated (thinking the see-through-walls x-ray eyes would be overrated).
kdaug
@BGinCHI:
+ For-profit Prison industry.
ETA for clarity.
jwb
@Cap’n Magic: Can’t help but notice that Ol’ Ollie hasn’t showed up to defend his claim.
Cliff
GOP Lannister clan
This is fucking awesome. I can’t believe I didn’t see it before.
You’ve the spoiled, insane brat running the kingdom, and the clan patriarch fucking everybody from behind the scenes with his long golden dick.
Bill E Pilgrim
@wilfred:
Unless you missed the fact that “”liberal” media” had quotation marks around the word liberal, your comment makes no sense. If you did miss it, then it makes sense only because you didn’t understand the post.
This is a post claiming that the media ignored something when Bush did it, and now is all over it as a scandal when Obama is involved. The “liberal” part in “”liberal” media” was ironic, thus the quotation marks, the point being made that the media is generally anything but liberal.
So to answer your questions “So the Democrats didn’t complain when the Republicans did it? Is that that it?” , no, that wasn’t it.
somegayname
The story broke after border patrol agent Brian Terry was killed with a fast and furious gun.http://edition.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/06/15/us.fast.and.furious/. I doubt any legislators knew of it prior to that death and some whistleblowing from low level ATF agents. It sounds like a really dumb program, regardless of who started it. I doubt Obama even knew of it, and probably not Holder, but someone at ATF needs firing.
El Cid
@Villago Delenda Est:
That’s a good point. I hope he knows how to change his motor oil.
Bill E Pilgrim
@somegayname:
I agree. I’m just catching up on this now, and read something at Forbes that claims confidently that it was clearly a political ploy to pump up the number of US-bought guns in Mexico so Obama could use the statistics resulting from this to “take away our guns” basically.
It takes a certain kind of extreme paranoia existing in the country for a national magazine to blithely advocate such nuttiness out in the open.
Yutsano
@somegayname:
Having a permanent head of the ATF would help as well. But the dickheads in the Senate are abusing their advise and consent function to the point of total obstruction. And even worse, no recess, so Obama is left with no remedy for the situation.
Punchy
Wait, I’m confused. How exactly does this affect the Michigan/MSU game again?
cat48
The Acting Head of the ATF has been fired a few weeks ago. They always wanted Holder’s head whether he’s guilty of anything or not. The old white men in Congress don’t like a black AG or something. They’ve demanded he be fired at least 4 previous times, maybe more.
catmandoodo
Has anyone in the media asked the good Mr Issa what he is doing to prevent guns going into Mexico in the future, say by sponsoring legislation to tighten straw purchase restrictions? Or, is his purpose to create a scandal for political advantage while the flow of guns continues unabated because it might offend the NRA if he actually did something
JPL
@Punchy: John is missing in action and apparently there is not another front pager who understands that according to balloon juice rules there is to be an open football thread. BTW Michigan State is ahead, not that I care.
I’d rather read Wilfred’s rants on how Obama has failed us once again.
Brachiator
This was one of the stupidest programs imaginable, and resulted in people being murdered. The key question is not who started it, but why the Obama Justice Department didn’t pull the plug on it as quickly as possible.
Not as deadly, but equally stupid, I seriously wonder why the Justice Department is so zealously pursuing medical marijuana persecutions in California. And yeah, I mean persecutions.
@catmandoodo: @catmandoodo:
Unfortunately, you can no more totally control the sale of illegal weapons than you can entirely control the sale of illegal drugs, or prevent Issa from being a total fool.
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
@JPL: Sigh
Punchy
/checks calendar, notices a “S” for today, sighs…
Really, TimDougLadySarahMixalot…..you didnt notice the day of the friggin’ week? Even SULLIVAN knows how to read a calendar.
Why in HELL is Iowa 6pt favs over NU, who beats them like a rented mule every single year? Who’s the bookie in this place?
jwb
@Punchy: #OccupyCollegeFootball
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
Go Illini, Go Hokies, Go Dawgs!
Yutsano
@Raven (formerly stuckinred): It’s not like we haven’t taken over a comment thread before when the FPers slack off on a football thread.
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
@Yutsano: Especially when the thread in question has died.
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
South Carolina-MSU is a 7-7 bloodbath!
Yutsano
@Raven (formerly stuckinred): HA! Go Bulldogs!
Zandar
Yes, hint taken, open thread up.
somegayname
@catmandoodo:
Step one: end drug war. 90% of the demand for illegal weapons on the border region disappears. This is also much cheaper than enforcing new laws – not to mention all the money saved from dismantling the DEA and arming the police as a civilian force instead of as a paramilitary force – so surely our fiscal conservatives across the isle will support this. Small government conservatives should also back this effort to get government out of our lungs. (A man can dream….)
Look at any of the hauls from cartels and they are not being armed primarily by guns of US origin. One example from fox (sorry, was first google result with numbers) despite the later claims, the Cartel is not getting 250 grenades by legal means in the US. The given rifle numbers don’t differentiate semi-auto from auto, but the automatics are not being legally acquired from the US either (registered autos go for 10K and a couple months ATF paper work). The light anti tank rocket was also not a straw purchase. They likely get a few straw purchased shotguns across the border due to convenience, but they have other sources (south american militaries?) for serious hardware.
catmandoodo
Tell me it is really difficult to convert a legal semiauto into a full automatic weapon–just look in the Shotgun News where you also can find “parts kits” for “display model” fully auto weapons and blueprints for the missing pieces so you can assemble one from parts of your own manufacture
Ironman
One thing people fail to notice about this. In the article it states the Bush administration was co-operating and coordinating with the Mexican government. Where as the Obama administration was not. This Gun Walker/Runner program wouldn’t be an issue if drugs were legalized. Then idiots could dope themselves to oblivion. That’s fine with me. To the anti-2nd amendment group, just because you can’t be trusted with a firearm doesn’t mean I can’t be. Getting back to our constitution is the only solution. Small government = more freedom.
somegayname
@catmandoodo: See Chapter 8 Down to the map where it separates by price, or table 8.1 . Recall the US prices are for semiauto variants (except the high end might be full auto, were any registered before 1986?). Would you spend >500 + time and effort for full auto AK, or buy full auto for ~$350 from columbia? You’re comments still do not address the grenades or rockets. Also, parts kits are rifles without the receivers (which have to go through an FFL 01) and never include ‘full auto’ components. Drop in auto sears are machine guns by definition and have to be registered. Anyone dumb enough to advertise unregistered sears for sale were quickly picked up by ATF.