Does Kaplan really need to give editorial space to Rick Perry’s anti-Mormon bigot pal, Robert Jeffress?
Hearing Mitt Romney’s surrogate Bill Bennett refer to me as a bigot and Jon Huntsman call me a “moron” last week after my controversial comments on Mormonism, amid calls for civility and tolerance in public discourse, reminds me of the exclamation: “We will not tolerate intolerance!” But beyond the personal insults, I am concerned that these men are attempting to prematurely marginalize religion as a relevant topic in elections.
[…..]During this firestorm I’ve reignited over the role of religion in politics, some have quoted Martin Luther as saying he would rather be governed by a competent unbeliever than an incompetent Christian. Yet evangelicals should remember that the purpose of the primary process is to keep us from having to make such a choice.
I realize this garbage was link bait, so shame on me.
redshirt
Your liberal media at work!
Catsy
We should be so lucky.
Lev
Didn’t WaPo give John Yoo space some time ago to say what John Yoo always says? I’m sure they say that they have to present all sides of the argument, but it’s not like we have a fairness doctrine anymore. Right?
PeakVT
Yet evangelicals should remember that the purpose of the primary process is to keep us from having to make such a choice.
So he’s saying that evangelicals were epic failures in the 2000 and 2008 Republican primaries, right? Or what? I’m not clicking through to find out.
Lev
Also, that man’s last name is very similar to convicted Fundamentalist LDS Head Warren Jeffs. For a second I thought that was who wrote the article, and it made my head spin!
Kathy in St. Louis
Oh, no, let’s not “marginalize” the topic of religion. Let’s get all the political mileage we can out of dissing someone else’s religious beliefs, puff our own, then when called out for it, claim to have been misquoted by the liberal media. Tiresome nasty people.
wrb
@Catsy:
If someone is a world-burning millennialist it sure is going to affect my vote.
Which bundle of crazy shit a candidate believes matters, hugely.
We should shed the inhibitions about talking about it. Mormon, evangelical, Catholic, Scientologist, Jewish, Buddhist, Quaker… all gonna lead to different decisions if the person takes the faith at all seriously.
Dougerhead
@Lev:
Okay, the whole post was an excuse to make a reference to an obscure Velvet Underground song about a guy named Waldo Jeffers.
TenguPhule
BLOOD, BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!
WH40K was only 50 years ahead of its time.
Stranger
Somebody might want to put this up on the front page:
Tea Party Nation Urges Businesses To Stop Hiring In Order To Hurt Obama
Sheah, the Tea Party loves America. Idoits.
Quaker in a Basement
OK, I got off the boat just because I wanted to know if Jeffress had anything to say about his own remark that started all the fuss in the first place.
He does not.
geg6
Bill Maher had him on this past weekend. He actually had a pretty good sense of humor for a nutjob. As far as Mormonism goes, he’s right in that it’s a cult. But so is every religion that is an organized one, including Jeffers’ own. Cults are not just the Scientologists or Jim Jones-type offshoot, the definition definitely includes larger and more mainstream denominations.
BGinCHI
Next up at Kaplan:
Ronald McDonald on why hamburgers are delicious and why chicken tastes like ass.
Samara Morgan
@Dougerhead: do you think Jeffers is going to sukk it up and vote for Mitt if he gets the nom?
Short Bus Bully
Christ on a crutch (literally). This fucking hillbilly wants to turn the U.S. into a theocracy and our Very Serious People think this is a viewpoint that should be taken seriously.
Assholes.
JPL
Dougerhead, The Post does not want Perry and what better way than highlight his ministers comments. What would happen if they wrote an editorial saying Romney, Romney, Romney..they would lose subscribers so this was the easier way.
Samara Morgan
@wrb: you are not going to vote for Mitt anyways, so it doesnt matter what YOU think about mormons.
it matters what white republican and independent voters think about mormons.
Donut
…It was now mid-October, which meant he had been separated from Ricky for more than two months. Two months, and all he had to show for it was ….
SteveinSC
That guy was on Bill Maher, I think, and I don’t have a problem with his bringing up religion as far as it goes. It’s a big deal with the Republicans and the evangelicals who generally side with them. Writing as an atheist I note that it is true that Mormonism is not Christianity for whatever that’s worth. (Joseph Smith was a con-man and the rest of these ‘oh-so-moral’ xtians were more than happy to murder at Morning Meadows.) It matters to them so let them thrash it out. The bizarre doctrinal convolutions, witch-hunts and internal civil war of the right wing xtianists are fine by me.
Samara Morgan
@geg6: islam is not a cult.
we have no central leadership because it is a consensus religion.
:)
The Populist
I saw him on Bill Maher’s show this past Friday night. He tries so hard to come off as charming and tolerant. Even when Bill would bait him, Jeffers would laugh it off.
I have no problem with intolerant dorks like this guy. I do have problems when they walk around thinking their religion is more important to ignore. If his savior, Jesus, comes back tomorrow, he’d call him a charlatan. Jesus would be condemning the megachurch this prick sells his snake oil in.
Religion has ZERO place in government. If Jeffers wants this to be so important, I suggest visiting Iran. He might like that the mullahs force the people to obey the religious doctrine they spew out in the name of God.
Fuck I hate these dipshits.
Dougerhead
@Donut:
Thank you!
slag
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
The Populist
@SteveinSC:
Like i said, I don’t care if he wants to go on shows preaching his religious beliefs. I do mind when he tries to marginalize other people’s beliefs as that goes against everything Jesus preached if he really wants to get into it.
To me anybody who has a “megachurch” is a snake oil salesman. Why not take that money and help the less fortunate. Oh yes, too easy I guess.
Lev
@Dougerhead: The Gift is an obscure song? I thought it was one of their better known. But I’m a third Velvets album kind of guy myself.
wrb
If it is about excellence it is about excellent blood.
“My grandparents overcame, so I’m excellent and marvelous too”
The Populist
@Short Bus Bully: Where’s Larry Flynt’s money when you need it? It’s time to dig up this guy’s background and lifestyle and put it on display.
Hate is what he’s preaching, so I have no problem with his skeletons coming out of the closet for full examination.
Roger Moore
Just remember the new rules of discourse:
Being a bigot: civil
Accurately calling somebody a bigot: uncivil
And we wonder why we lack serious discussions of tough social issues in this country.
celtidragonchick
@TenguPhule:
Skulls for the Skull Throne!
Long time Dark Angels WH40K player here…
celtidragonchick
@TenguPhule:
Skulls for the Skull Throne!
Long time Dark Angels WH40K player here…
Dougerhead
@Lev:
I fee like the last 20 years of constant imitation of the third one — I’m looking at you, Luna — ruined that one for me.
The Populist
@Stranger:
Note to media: When you keep asking when the OWS movement will find a leadership and build a structure…look at this example as WHY they are just fine as an alliance of various groups and people wanting the same thing. The Tea Party shitheads want their very base to suffer joblessness so they can unseat Obama. Wow.
The Populist
As I always say to the righties to work them up: The founding fathers are turning in their liberal graves. Yes, dipshits, they were liberals whether you accept that or not. The majority of them felt that religion tainted English politics and government so they decided it was not going to be a part of the new nation they were forming.
Morons.
JGabriel
Robert Jeffress:
No, we do not need to consider whether candidates can govern according to biblical principles, or not. You may consider it if you wish.
Me? Frankly, I don’t give a fuck.
.
The Populist
@Roger Moore:
What I say is that this style of “civility” is not practiced by the younger folks coming up. The majority of them do not see color the way these rightwing tards do and it will kill their party when these kids reject them for something else (it may not be the dems but it will be a party of tolerance and progress).
TenguPhule
I favor Tyranids myself. Omnomnom!
The Populist
@JGabriel:
To quote the righties during the years when they were out in the cold: We are a nation of laws. The law says that we will not HAVE a government based on any religion. Fuck anybody who keeps trying to say that we do and our founding fathers never meant for seperation of church and state.
reboho
Isn’t Jeffress supporting the incompetent Christian?
wrb
@Samara Morgan:
Actually what likely matters is if the anti-Mormon vote is split long enough into the primaries. Romney probably can’t with the R nomination with a majority, but he can with a plurality. If he can get 27% and the next-best can only manage 25%, he’ll be the nominee.
Morzer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhGk6eF65Fo
I think this says all that needs to be said about government based on biblical principles.
slag
@JGabriel:
Not even a little bit?
Personally, I enjoy the prospect of having them all duke it out amongst themselves. My only objection is when the rest of us get caught in the middle.
JGabriel
Robert Jeffress:
Not if you’re voting Republican.
.
SteveinSC
I’m considering quitting my GP because the ignorant thing goes to church. I can hear it now, “Well the tetracycline is not working so now let’s get on our knees and pray to the Baby Jesus.” Anyone supposedly associated with the real sciences is either a hypocrite or an incompetent if he/she/it goes to church. In either case no credence should be given to them on any serious matter.
Lev
@Dougerhead: I know what you mean. Then again, imitation can often just underline how hard to top the original is. A lot of bands in the ’80s tried to sound like New Order, but nobody’s cracking Soft Cell records anymore except at weddings.
@JGabriel: You mean like living peacefully with your neighbors, abjuring self-aggrandizement and providing for the least fortunate? I do use those as criteria myself.
JGabriel
@slag:
Well, yeah, I’m here, aren’t I? Obviously I enjoy watching — well, mocking — the political rough & tumble.
But I find it’s quite easy to enjoy the Olympics without giving a shit about which deity the winner is thanking afterwards.
.
Comrade Mary
@Dougerhead: Not that obscure, sweets.
JGabriel
@Lev:
So do I.
I consider them human principles, not biblical. Plenty of people were kind to their neighbors and the less fortunate before The Bible came along, and plenty of Hindus, Buddhists, Agnostics, Atheists, et. al., continue to be kind to others despite their lack of any belief in The Bible whatsoever.
.
slag
@JGabriel:
I don’t know whether this is a “When in Greece…” kind of thing or what, but I think it would be totally awesome to see one of the Olympic winners thank Zeus afterwards. If you’re gonna go god, might as well kick it old school.
dopealope
Will Wheaton (aka Wesley Crusher) just quoted John Cole on Google+. Why should you care? Probably shouldn’t but I thought it was cool.
https://plus.google.com/108176814619778619437/posts
Morzer
@SteveinSC:
Sorry, but that’s an incredibly silly blanket statement. Not everyone who goes to church is a fundamentalist or a creationist. Nor is it necessarily the case that Christians have to be scientifically incompetent or illiterate. I am not religious myself, but I’ve known plenty of Christians who felt no need to take Genesis literally and who saw science as fully valid in its own domain, while seeing Christian ethics as offering something that science simply doesn’t.
JGabriel
@wrb:
Why? Shouldn’t believes crazy shit be the disqualifier in and of itself, regardless of religious label?
.
JGabriel
@slag:
Heh. Yes, that would be cool.
.
Turgidson
@Roger Moore:
Getting this new rule on “civility” to become accepted has been a prominent part of the Right’s long game. Along similar lines, a lot of them seem to believe with every fiber of their being that the only victims of racism in today’s world are whites, when they get called out on their racism.
Assholes.
slag
@JGabriel: Very uphill battle: http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/12/07/food_for_thought . We’re lucky just to get people who believe innocuously crazy shit. The crazy shit is coming no matter what.
JPL
@dopealope: Ah..Gordie!..Stand by Me is one of my all time favorites. Sorry trekkie fans.
Maybe you should email John. Not sure he will read it but it still is cool.
Villago Delenda Est
@JGabriel:
See Robinson, Art, in Oregon’s 4th Congressional District, providing the entire nation with entertaining crazy shit. He’s going to do it again, folks, backed with Koch money!
JPL
BTW..I have sworn off watching more repub debates but that does not mean if there were an open thread I wouldn’t read it. HINT HINT
JGabriel
Morzer:
Hell, there are entire Christian faiths that don’t take Genesis literally, including Catholics and Anglicans.
.
Cacti
Let the right cannibalize each other over religious issues. Nah mah problem.
b-psycho
Just fucking rename it the Fightin’ Jesus Up Your Ass party already…
Jesse
@SteveinSC: But, you know, the churchy types are the intolerant ones.
You didn’t even say “believes”, you just said “goes to church.”
You’re a jerk.
Morzer
@JGabriel:
Ah but refusal to believe in anything is the cornerstone (no, not that one!) of Anglicanism!
dmsilev
For the masochists among us, the 47th weekly running of the clowns, I mean GOP debate, will be airing on CNN shortly (8 Eastern). I figure at one drink per “9-9-9”, I’ll be under the table in about 10 minutes.
JPL
How about this… GOP
God’s observant perverts…
I liked Beltane’s earlier version but it doesn’t fit herGOP = Grifters Only Please
(Fleecing the American Citizen One Fucking Moran at a Time)
I think it was Beltane..
Amir Khalid
I followed some links at the Washington Post from Reverend Jeffress’ piece, and found this statement from him in coverage of the Values Voters Summit:
Jesus Christ alone? What about God?
WereBear
I would not want to vote for a Millenial; what incentive do they have to make life better? Or a Kali worshipper; that would be trouble.
feebog
For some folks on the right who profess to love them some Constitution, they sure as hell ignore it when it comes to religion in politics. Article VI, paragraph 3:
What part of NO RELIGIOUS TEST don’t you understand? Morans!
Amir Khalid
@WereBear:
Tsk, tsk. That’s what comes of learning about other religions from Indiana Jones and The Temple of Doom.
piratedan
OT:
well instead of watching the GOP failfest, here’s something that we can chew on here instead. It’s from Raul Grijalva and the Congressional Progressives Caucus, naturally you’ll have to take his numbers on faith but at least its a place to start. Namely its roots are tied to “home remodling”, i.e. lets fix this place up, because to be honest, our house is in danger of no longer being the nicest on the street anymore.
http://cpc.grijalva.house.gov/index.cfm?sectionid=79§iontree=5,79
Would appreciate it if a FP can give this some push as a talking point because I really get tired of listening to the asshatery espoused by the “other” side.
JGabriel
@Amir Khalid:
Lots of faiths believe in a god. It’s the belief in Jesus that makes one a Christian, as opposed to a Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Animist, or Zoroastrian.
Of course, by that definition, Jeffress includes Mormons and Muslims in his definition.
I happen to agree with that definition, and classify Mormons and Muslims as being at least nominally Christian faiths. Somehow, I don’t think Jeffress buys his own reasoning.
.
scav
@Amir Khalid: I do have vague memories of the credo being rather longer than that . . . not that I was really paying attention, it being one of those inadvertent well, look how I got here by politeness or tourism type moments.
JPL
fyi..Pretentious Tom has a pretty good game (fundraiser) for the debate..
Amir Khalid
@JGabriel:
Muslims believe in Jesus as a messenger (but not son) of God. We Muslims don’t really see Islam as a Christian faith, but as something that follows on from it and is a completion of Abrahamic faith.
The Populist
@dmsilev: Is it really the price of a pizza?
Mustang Bobby
I blame the Romans. If they’d have left that DFH alone with his love, peace, and loaves and fishes, we’d all be able to spend Passover with our families. Oh, and there’s that whole Inquisition thing, too. WTF was up with that shit?
slag
@Mustang Bobby:
It was a cry for help.
SteveinSC
@Morzer:res ipsa loquitur idiot @Jesse:
Well you either believe the fucking bible, all of its miracles and all, or you start to compromise, dissemble, excuse, interpret and down that path, even one step and you’re fucked. The whole house of cards caves in. So the blanket statement stands as stark and uncompromising as Luther’s Theses.
NonyNony
@SteveinSC:
This is patently untrue. I’m a die-hard atheist at this point and yet I know plenty of religious folks who have consistent religious beliefs that are not dependent on a fundamentalist reading of the Bible. Granted they’re all Unitarians, Buddhists, Wiccans or Deists, and granted I still find their faiths unconvincing at best, but there’s no dissembling involved – not even self deception.
(The problem of evil is the killer for me as far at the Unitarians and the Deists go – none of them have a good answer to the riddle of Epicurus and so can’t convince me that their god is actually worth worshiping if he/she/it exists, let alone that he/she/it actually exists. The Buddhists have slightly better answers, but I don’t personally find it convincing. The Wiccans … I’m just too damn much of a technophile to find Wicca attractive, even if I could believe in it, which I can’t.)
geg6
Hey, Matoko. To me there is no difference between Mohammed and Jesus. It’s all worship of a central figure who you all believe are “divine” and who were no more divine than Jim Jones or L. Ron Hubbard or any other pretender to being the last word on “god.”. All bullshit and flim flam. But keep telling yourself that YOUR religion is different. I’m sure Mittens and Ton Cruise feel the same way.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@JPL:
Someone dropped “Greedy One Percenters” in another thread here.
Win.
Amir Khalid
@Samara Morgan:
Sez she who, by her own admission, has never lived among the ummah.
Lockewasright
I’m pretty sure that James Madison would agree with Martin Luther because religion has no place in politics at all.
http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/madison_m&r_1785.html
celtidragonchick
@TenguPhule:
Ah. Another heretic worshipper of xenos scum who needs to be cleansed in the name of the Emperor…
;)
Morzer
@SteveinSC:
Please, explore your adolescent insecurities elsewhere. Right now, you sound like a bigot and a fool, whose ignorance of science and religion is embarrassing to anyone who wasted five seconds debating you.
Morzer
@Amir Khalid:
Interestingly enough, the “consensus” bit seems to have escaped those few Muslims who bowed to the autocratic will of the various Sunni caliphs or to that of the various Shia imams. Doubtless matoko was referring to her own inner consensus as the only “true” Muslim.
TenguPhule
You are already one of us, my pretty!
One of Us, One of Us, One of Us! /genestealer
A Mom Anon
@Morzer: I was raised by right wing end of timer evangelicals and I was actually encouraged to explore science. My dad has always said that science explains all the stuff God created. I never really believed what they do,but that approach toward religion and science probably saved the family alot of grief(not that the religion hasn’t caused rifts,but none of it has to do with science).
Samara Morgan
@Morzer: wallah.
im a Sufi. havent i made that clear?
we are often persecuted and killed as heretics.
See Mansur Hallaj.
@Amir Khalid: at least i dont claim im qualified to perform tafsir, mufassir maftoon.
And it doesnt matter if i dont live among the ummah.
i said the shahada.
:)
Whoever approaches me by a hand’s span, I will approach by an arm’s span.
Samara Morgan
@geg6: muhammed is not divine. he rejected the godhead. that is why muslims are not supposed to make pictures of him.
poor Issa couldn’t reject the godhead because he was already dead.
islam is not the same as xianity.
that trips you fools up everytime.
Samara Morgan
@JGabriel: wallah.
Islam evolved as a response to christianity.
Most muslims dont care if xians wanna believe in the jesus godhead–they are all people of the book, and thus “saved”.
But muslims do care, rather fervently as it turns out, about xian attempts to make muslims believe it too.
Thus the quranic injunctions against proselytizing.
You can think of it this way– proselytizing is xianity’s killer app for increasing reps. Islam’s killer app for retaining reps is resistance to proselytizers.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid:
you know very well muslims and jews believe in the same Abrahamaic monotheistic god as christians.
the jesus godhead is how christians self define…it is a discriminator.
go make somemore fake tafsir, maftoon.
Samara Morgan
@geg6: you know….thinking xianity and islam are just the same is what caused the twin horrorshows of Iraq and A-stan.
are you are george bush in drag?
THE
We are all divine Samara, that is why Hindus bow to the other, saluting the divine within.
That’s the principle known as Tat Tvam Asi (Sanskrit: तत् त्वम् असि or तत्त्वमसि), often translated as, “Thou art That”.
I like Wikipedia’s comment:
Samara Morgan
@THE: i am the Real.
that got Mansur Hallaj crucified.
ya-haqq!
i liek this quote from one of my shayykas–
18000 worlds. Remember, this was four or five centuries before the geo-centrists tried to burn Galileo.
Samara Morgan
you see Spock…that is why i reject contemporary xianity.
there is nothing of the divine in modern xians.
modern xians are full of sin….they see it everywhere, even in others, even in the innocent.
original sin is the informing theme of xianity.
but then…its not like they can be anything else.
man cannot acquire what he cannot use.
:)
THE
If you believe that then why do you argue about whether Jesus was divine? If you really believe we all are?
THE
What is the difference between Jesus’ divinity and your’s or God’s?
THE
The reason I ask these questions, Samara, is because the Vedanta was one of the stages of my own philosophical development many years ago. It was part of my own broader journey through mysticism to pantheism to naturalistic monism and beyond.
I think it’s true that once I had truly stripped my mind of dualism, that I never really took it seriously again.