Oh Pat Buchanan, how are you possibly still employed at MSNBC?
During a radio appearance promoting his book, MSNBC analyst Pat Buchanan argued that blacks and whites were more unified during the 1950s than they are today. Buchanan argued that “what we had then, which was a sense of cultural and social one-ness, we were a people, that I think that is what’s being lost.” Buchanan added that while blacks considered themselves Americans first and foremost during the era of segregation, today they’re using “hyphenated terms” like “African-American” to describe themselves.
Buchanan’s remark came yesterday on the radio program of Mark Davis. Davis asked Buchanan to expand on his theory that, in Davis’ words, “black Americans of 1960 were more woven into the fabric of the America of that time than many of today’s black Americans are woven into the America of this time.”
Buchanan replied that during the 1950s, blacks and whites “all had a common religion, we all worshiped the same God, we all went to schools where American literature was taught, the English language was our language, we all rooted for the same teams, we read the same newspapers, we listened to the same music. We were a people then. We were all Americans. Now I’m not saying segregation was good. But what I was saying, that did not prevent us from being one people.”
Because really, any argument that goes “back when they knew their place” and “they think they’re black first and American second” couldn’t possibly be complete and utter bullshit designed to ruin the “social one-ness” that Buchanan purports to advocate, right?
It’s one thing to have an analyst or pundit say something controversial once in a while, but it’s another thing entirely to have this grandiose pile of fecal matter write a book about the end of White America (actually, isn’t this like his third or fourth book on that subject?) and say “You know, there were some definite benefits to racial segregation, find out in my new book!”
Buchanan really seems to think an era where folks who looked like me were terrified of promoting their own culture or history in order to fit in was a win-win for everyone involved. On the other hand, the modern GOP seems to like that particular idea in general, so it’s really not just Buchanan’s problem either. This particular culture battle is a war story as old as society, the lyrics may change but the tune stays the same.
Shana
Also offensive is his contention that we were all the same religion. We jews don’t remember those times being quite as rosy as Pat seems to think. Just ask my dad about being taunted as a Christ-killer as a child.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
Whites could beat on blacks and blacks could take it. See, unity.
When we’re lining the pundits up against the wall, this white man will help string Buchanan on a tree.
sal
Can’t argue with that. The preferred term of the Buchanans of the day, ‘nigger’, contains no hyphens. Neither does ‘coloreds’. Pat is spot on once again.
cathyx
If anyone is making sure we are not together as a group, it’s the republicans.
Brian S
One day in the not too distant future, Pat Buchanan will die, and the world will be a better place for it. And MSNBC will probably do a two day special on him when it happens.
pk
I had no idea that blacks have started worshiping a different God. When did this happen? How come I never heard of this? What is this new religion of which he speaks?
cleek
we weren’t “listening to the same music” in the 50’s. or the 40’s, or the 30’s, 20’s, 10’s, etc..
in the 20’s, jazz was The Devil’s Music. in the 50’s, Rock and Roll was a corrupting influence on pure white kids. and they were fought by reactionary “conservative” culture warriors just like Buchanan.
Stooleo
Seriously fuck Pat Buchanan. His bitter tears of a lost age are my sweet shots of 50 year old single malt. Now if he would just go away.
cleek
@pk:
he’s probably talking about the rise of Islam in the black community.
Waldo
Remember how this sort of nostalgia for the bygone days of segregation cost Trent Lott his leadership post in the Senate? Of course, that was back in 2002. Now, nothing short of dropping an N-bomb will get conservatives in trouble.
Now I’m feeling nostalgic.
Bullsmith
There is no line of decency anymore, there’s only ideology. If you’re Rush, you can say anything. If you’re Phil Donahue, shut the fuck up.
harlana
alright, if we’re going to criticize MSNBC, this is more like it. but boy oh boy, do they love them some Pat
Egilsson
I’m sure that’s exactly the way Emmett Till, Medgar Evers, Rosa Parks and countless others felt . . .
Buchanan is an old fool who has spent a lifetime on the wrong side of all the major issues of his day, so now he’s left wallowing in hazy, fanciful memories as his only means of dealing with that.
Zifnab
Segregation: I do not think that word means what you think it means.
cleek
@Zifnab:
win
harlana
@Bullsmith: Rush said the other day that the President’s attitude about going to church was that it was like going to the bathroom. Why are we attacking our own when this sort of filth is just completely ignored by the corp media?
Amir Khalid
@cleek:
If so, he’s still wrong to suggest that Muslim African-Americans worship a different God.
RossInDetroit
Well, he may have a point in one limited sense. Detroit is actually much more physically segregated in terms of residence now than 30 years ago. I’m saying this intentionally in very narrow terms. Black and white share neighborhoods much less than they once did. But in every sense that matters, schools, business, socializing, sports, etc. there is far more integration. And no riots, redlining, overt racial preference in hiring.
I’m sure he can define the argument in terms where he comes out right but it’s still bullshit.
Culture of Truth
This is all hilarious because he’s Irish catholic, Jesuit, Georgetown all the way. Not exactly an example an expansive who cares about religion-or-ethnicity perspective.
Legalize
In the good old days, benevolent spirits like Uncle Pat permitted brown people to root for proper sports teams, like Notre Dame football. Now the ungrateful bastards like “new” basketball players like Magic Johnson, and Michael Jordan, who, as far as I know, didn’t play football at Notre Dame. Also too, hippity-hop music instead of Glenn Campbell.
Mudge
Pat says, ““all had a common religion, we all worshiped the same God, we all went to schools where American literature was taught, the English language was our language, we all rooted for the same teams, we read the same newspapers, we listened to the same music….”
Blacks and whites still overwhelmingly have the same religion. English literature is still taught in the schools where blacks and whites go. English is still the language of both races, even Kenyan Americans. Whatever he means by teams, both races root for the same ones, except now blacks are allowed to play the sports. We listened to the same music because radio stations did not play black music (blues/early rock and roll).
In all respects he’s an idiot.
Bill E Pilgrim
Uhm, okay so I’m white so someone else can check me on this but I don’t think any of my black friends here in France, if anyone at a party asked them where they were from, would ever say “Oh I’m an African-American”. American would be the answer for either one of us, or “from the US” or whatever. The term only comes up in context like “Well, as an African -American I’ve often had the experience that….” etc etc.
So, Pat Buchanan is a racist and a fool, one more constant of the universe confirmed.
Dustin
Every time I hear these bigoted morons pining for the glory days of their youth “when everything was perfect” I always think of my local grocery store. Simply put in the two decades I’ve been paying attention (maybe less, those cereal aisles are mighty distracting as a child) ‘ethnic’ food has gone from being a niche to being fully mainstream.
First we got a few over-salted American Chinese recipe powders, then some megabrand salsas, and things went from there. In my local grocery store for my small city we have as many traditionally Asian vegetables in the produce section as we do European ones, Greek tahini sauce sits right next to the peanut butter and just down the aisle from the pickled artichoke hearts. Hell now that I think about it a full quarter of the store is devoted to ‘ethnic’ foods.
Why? Simple: we have large (by %) populations of both Hmong and Latin American immigrants in our community and have for a generation. They’ve infused our formerly stoic and boring Scandinavian/Germanic culture with their own and everyone’s better off for it.
So bigots like Buchanan may want to return to their rose-colored childhoods but the rest of us will keep on keeping on, our kitchens demand it.
The Moar You Know
@Waldo: Shit, I’m thinking at this point it would probably, at the very least, assure them the primary. Probably the presidency. This nation is fucked in the head about race.
Culture of Truth
Cain was on Meet The Press this weekend, saying he prefers to be calld ‘black’ rather than African-American because he’s really American, not African, (unlike that other guy…) so this is trending among conservatives.
gnomedad
If you recognize that by “we” he means “while male Christians”, this makes perfect sense.
cleek
@Amir Khalid:
i suspect theology is not Pat’s strong suit
RossInDetroit
I first heard this kind of argument from a moderately bigoted expat Brit about 15 years ago. He left England in the ’70s and considered that nonwhite English subjects were English first and ethnic second. Of course there was that efficient social class system with whites at the top to keep things orderly.
Chris
@Bill E Pilgrim:
During that same time, they also identified as “Christians” (not “Judeo-Christians” or any of that bullshit). But Catholics understood perfectly well that when they said “Christians,” the “which doesn’t include you Mary-worshipping mics, wops and Polacks” was a loud and clear subtext.
Pat Buchanan misses the days when he had a patent on the “American” label.
jayjaybear
The only thing Rachel Maddow has ever really disappointed me on is the way she treats Pat Buchanan like an eccentric old uncle instead of lighting into him like the unrepentant Nazi that he is.
Nemesis
The Offspring, right?
catclub
@cleek: No, I bet he is bewailing the fact that most of his party now worships rich people. I am sure Islam has _nothing_ to do with Pat’s angst.
Bill E Pilgrim
@RossInDetroit: Actually this sort of thing is much stronger in France, at least traditionally, than the US.
I learned it early on, years ago when working with a guy who had a pretty intriguing combination of a German name, Turkish appearance, and seemed thoroughly French, so after we had met a number of times, enough to end up chatting about non-work subjects, I asked what his origins were, much as I would anyone Stateside.
He was actually very nice about it but so visibly hesitated that I just asked if that were not quite polite here, to which he finally admitted. “No. It’s offensive” and explained that everyone is supposed to just become French, no matter where the family or they themselves came from. Much as we are, one might say, but for us it’s not offensive to ask, at least once you’re talking about personal things, and it’s even celebrated. “So, your parents are from Ireland?” wouldn’t throw us in the least, in other words, at that same level of personally knowing someone.
The learning curve was steep. But fun.
daveNYC
@sal: Goddamnnit, you beat me to it.
Yeah, woven into the fabric of America’s doormat. I bet if I put this through Google Translate it’ll come out with ‘knew their place’ and ‘uppity’.
John PM
I completely agree with the sentiment, but I object to the mixed metaphor.
maya
Thanks for all that, Pat, now I can’t get the Andy Griffith Mayberry theme song outta my head.
John PM
I believe he is implying that all blacks are now Muslims (or soc ial ist Kenya atheist Muslims, it is hard to keep track).
John PM
I think we were even more woven together in the 1850s when both blacks and Irish Catholics knew their place. I am sure that the signs advertising “No Irish Need Apply” was all in good fun.
Judas Escargot
@harlana:
What? He runs there as fast as he can, shouts cries of relief once the service starts, and thanks his wife for feeding him so much fiber when it’s over?
(Pardon the nasty image– but that’s just a really weird, incoherent attempt at an analogy by the Plush Windbag).
Mary
@maya: Enjoy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE-l4gfiCM8
Jess
Wow. Just … wow. At least we’re getting all this crap out in the open.
patrick II
This post proves Buchanan is right. Here you are attacking another American — in public. Not like the old days at all.
Admiral_Komack
“During a radio appearance promoting his book, MSNBC analyst Pat Buchanan argued that blacks and whites were more unified during the 1950s than they are today. Buchanan argued that “what we had then, which was a sense of cultural and social one-ness, we were a people, that I think that is what’s being lost.” Buchanan added that while blacks considered themselves Americans first and foremost during the era of segregation, today they’re using “hyphenated terms” like “African-American” to describe themselves.”
Yeah, Pat, nothing says cultural and social one-ness like this:
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/fsa.8a33793/#
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/fsa.8b32154/#
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/fsa.8b32104/#
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/fsa.8a17588/#
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/ppmsc/00200/00221r.jpg
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/ppmsca.12888/#
I hope Pat Buchanan comes back as a black man…in the middle of a 1920’s era Klan rally.
ant
@cleek:
From your link:
same as it ever was
Ben Cisco
Pat’s always been a nasty piece of work. He’s REALLY pissed because no one is paying attention to his “breed for the cause” bullshit. And make no mistake about it – that is what’s REALLY going on here. Demographics will (eventually, FSM willing) make him and his ilk timeworn and embarrassing relics to everyone on the planet with an IQ over 40. This is just verbal flailing about from someone who knows something is wrong but doesn’t realize his ticket’s already been punched.
MSNBC SHOULD be ashamed to give this irritable bowel of a man a single second of airtime, but they’re stupid enough to think that doing so will shield them from the dreaded “liberal media” label, so on they go.
maya
Buchanahan overlooks the fact that back in the 50’s we had those 90% tax rates on corporations and the rich and that’s why we were such a unified, friendlier nation towards each other, because we all got together, black and white, to screw the poodles. And that proves, beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt, Pat, that OWS is on the right track to restoring the natural balance of things.
Ball’s in your court, Buchanahan.
Villago Delenda Est
Pat Buchanan once said we fought on the wrong side in WWII.
He and his foul sister should be dealt with the same way we dealt with Julius Streicher after WWII.
MBunge
Ugh. Pat’s had some great conservative criticisms of the elite consensus on economic and foreign policy but there’s no defending this crap. I’ve observed that as you get older, you either let go of all the garbage that defined you in your youth or you cling to it tighter than ever. It’s pretty clear which way Pat’s going.
Mike
MBunge
@Villago Delenda Est: “Pat Buchanan once said we fought on the wrong side in WWII.”
Saying we should have sat back and let the Nazis and Soviets kill each other is not saying we fought on the wrong side.
Mike
catclub
@patrick II: We were united back then in blacklisting other americans for being pinkos.
No scapegoating an unpopular subgroup in the US of A.
Also, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength.
piratedan
@jayjaybear: well you have three guesses as to who’s gig is the most secure at the network, Rachael or Pat. She does use him deftly as a counterpoint to illustrate just how “wrong” his side is on damn near everything while still being the adult in the room. Personally, I’d hit that hateful bastard with a golf club and be happy with the jail time.
BobS
@RossInDetroit: Ross, the city of Detroit 30 years ago, 1981, was more integrated than Detroit is today- of course, when we talk about integration in the context of Detroit, it means that period between the first blacks moving into a neighborhood and the last whites moving out. Detroit lost nearly half of it’s population between the 50’s that Buchanan is nostalgic for and the turn of the century, and virtually all of those leaving were white. The Detroit I grew up in during the 50’s and 60’s was every bit as segregated as my dad’s hometown of Savannah, where we vacationed. The only things missing in Detroit were the Spanish moss, the grits, and the ‘whites only’ signs- not that the latter wasn’t understood in many neighborhoods, especially in the suburbs.
Brachiator
This is just typical modern conservative revisionism that has white people redefining what reality has been for black people, based on a delusional feverish insistence that American Exceptionalism has always generated beneficial results for all people at all times.
Next up, the claim that forcibly moving Native American people to reservations was the best thing that ever happened to them.
@RossInDetroit:
He doesn’t even have a point there. Segregation was not just about restricting where people lived, it was about preventing people from fully and equally participating in the social and economic existence of the country. And, to put it bluntly, it helped keep black people poor. Segregation laws meant that black people could not buy property in certain neighborhoods, could not establish stores in certain neighborhoods, could not work or shop in certain neighborhoods.
It is absurd and despicable for Buchanan to talk about black people being Americans during an era when laws and social custom deprived them of the equal right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness that whites enjoyed.
What a fool.
Nancy Irving
“we all rooted for the same teams, we read the same newspapers, we listened to the same music” –
Buchanan doesn’t know much 1950s history. In fact blacks were not allowed to play in major league sports, so there were separate “Negro leagues.” Blacks had their own newspapers as well, and among whites it was mostly hipsters (early DFHs) who listened to black music.
Buchanan should stop dreaming of a time that never was, and stick to the things that really made the 1950s good, like the 91% top marginal income tax rate.
Silver Owl
Buchanan’s dream times were so awesome that nearly everyone but men like him rose up to challenge the status quo.
MSNBC must have a sick fetish for abusive oppressive men like Buchanan.
Calouste
@sal:
Given Nazi-apologist Pat Buchanan’s normal tendencies, the non-hyphenated term he was thinking about is “untermensch”.
Yutsano
@Bill E Pilgrim:
I think this is because France and French has a long standing traditional definition that goes back many more centuries than US identity does. Also, our population pretty much all immigrated here, the French have more or less been there for thousands of years with only recent immigrations on their record. So I understand that perspective, even though I didn’t know of it.
Brachiator
@MBunge:
That is not Buchanan’s argument at all. Crap like his Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War reads like an apologist’s alternate history in which Germany is one of the good guys.
Paul in KY
@MBunge: Yes it is. The Nazis were waaaaaaay worse than the CCCP.
maya
@Brachiator:
It’s all rather moot as Buchanahan appears to forget that Germany declared war on us. Their Axis pact with Italy and Japan and all that minutia stuff. I won’t bother to read his screed but I wonder how he gets around that. Perhaps we should have just surrendered to Hitler right away and awaited the SS ship to arrive to set up Gestapo HQ in Washington DC. Yeah, I can see how a fReichtard like Buchanahan would go for that. Think of the Panzers that Detroit could have produced.
EconWatcher
The good news is, I really think this stuff is dying out. I’m 45, and the young people I know (teens and twenties) really don’t seem to have any hang-ups about race, gay people, etc. They’re better than we were, and I think the country will be better when they’re running the show.
(I will say, at the risk of sounding like an old fogey, that I don’t think younger people have the same work ethic that my generation or the generation before had. But their good qualities more than outweigh this.)
Bill E Pilgrim
@Yutsano:
That’s pretty much the background, definitely. And the difference, since so much of the current population of the US is from immigration. Actually if you go back far enough so are the indigenous populations, but that’s another story.
But of course in France this idea of really all becoming French is only in theory in many ways, reality falls far short, lots of problems around that issue these days. Plus it makes a big difference where the person is from obviously. Another friend had no qualms about going into detail about her Flemish name origins, but the first guy I mentioned had a family from Turkey via Germany, rather than another place in Northern Europe, and that’s where it gets trickier. In all ways.
RalfW
Never mind whether white people were actively tearing holes in the fabric to let the black people fall through.
Never mind if the fabric of jail bars was woven with crack cocaine sentences that were 10X or 20X or 50X worse that Wall Street party powder.
I could go on. But I’m mad enough already.
Never mind
cpinva
i’m not so sure buchanan actually does think this way, since i’ve never met the man in person. what i am sure of is that he clearly believes a whole lot of other people do, and they are his target audience, who will hopefully buy his books.
as always, follow the money.
rikryah
sure,
my parents felt part of America living in the Police State of Jim Crow Mississippi and Tennessee respectively.
not
Mnemosyne
@Chris:
Yep. Buchanan is whitewashing history in more than one way. Time was when real white people would have been more than happy to discriminate against his Pope-loving self. It took many decades for the Irish to transition to being white, which is one of the reasons why many African-Americans have a lot of Irish ancestry — in the mid to late 1800s, blacks and Irish were the same social class and intermarried pretty often.
@Bill E Pilgrim:
I’m still convinced that one of the reasons Obama was able to be so successful is that he has an immigration story. Us white people love to trade immigration stories, especially if they’re scandalous, but obviously it’s difficult for most African-Americans to join in since there’s that whole awkward “well, your ancestors captured mine and brought them here by force” thing. Heck, that’s probably one reason why “Roots” was so wildly successful in the 1970s — it “normalized” black people by giving them an immigration story that white people could relate to.
LongHairedWeirdo
Buchanan should read this:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/29/1011562/-Most-of-you-have-no-idea-what-Martin-Luther-King-actually-did
Yes, it’s true, back then, black folks weren’t so uppity, and wouldn’t dare differentiate themselves, calling attention and saying “that’s right, I’m black.” Back when a black person could be brutally murdered or beaten, and there would be no legal redress, they didn’t call attention to themselves and their blackness.
And now, well, now they’re willing to. And now they’re willing to show that society has not earned their trust yet. And people like Buchanan say “sure, we enslaved you for hundreds of years, treated you like shit for another hundred, and then, when forced, treated you as ‘merely’ inferior – but why don’t you *trust* us? Why don’t you *embrace* our society?”
El Cid
@Zifnab: Depends on who he included in “us”.
Lysana
@Yutsano:
As a side note, it has been longstanding French policy to wipe out native minority populations’ cultures and force them into being just French. They’re paying the worst level of lip service by saying Breton and other minority languages that are holding on by their fingernails are part of French culture. There is still enormous pressure for them to stop being so damn bilingual and just give up. And this predates the Breton collaborations with the Nazis in WW II. In fact, that policy is why they did it. They were promised protection and permission to be Breton in exchange. How likely that was is for alternate historians to discuss.
Anoniminous
Shorter Pat:
Alison
@jayjaybear: @piratedan: I watch Rachel basically every night and as far as I can recall, she stopped having him on her show a looooong time ago. I’m pretty sure she only had him on in the first few months, because I quite honestly can’t recall the last time. It’s true that she used to do the “Uncle Pat” thing but I think as his rhetoric – especially his homophobic spew – got more and more nasty and pronounced and foaming-at-the-mouth loony, she got past her odd fondness for him and ceased inviting him on.
They may have ended up sharing a panel during other shows, which she probably has little control over, but as for her own hour, he’s been gone a while.
Joseph Nobles
Talking about hyphenated Americans being less than real “One Hundred Percent Americans” has always been with us when we’re dealing with racists like Buchanan. It was always part of a Klansman’s recruitment speech in the 1920’s.
AA+ Bonds
Pat Buchanan! I live for every time this fucker opens his mouth.
Mnemosyne
@Lysana:
I read recently that, at the time of the French Revolution, less than 50% of the population of France actually spoke French.
Jamie
I always find it interesting given his concerns about the survival of the white man, that Patrick never managed to reproduce.
gaz
@Jamie: Thank God?