We haven’t had an Occupy update for a while, so here’s what’s going on:
* Chicago cops arrested Occupy Chicago protesters last night.
*According to the New York Times, nothing is going on at Occupy Wall Street other than Craigslist missed connections.
* Occupy Antarctica has begun — hide your children.
* Living up to their motto, the Marines are first to fight, organizing for Occupy.
That’s just some of what I gleaned from the OWS page.
Poopyman
Occupy Antarctica! Fuckin’ awesome! Even if they had to edit their sign to add the first “c”. :^)
But Occupy Marines is way fuckin’ more awesomer.
chrome agnomen
mitt has an ‘occupy iraq’ sign up.
Linda Featheringill
I checked out the Occupy Marines website. Poopyman is right. It is way more awesomer. :-)
Isn’t this new in the history of US protests?
Anyway, I’m impressed.
WereBear
Support the troops!
Mino
@chrome agnomen: They all do.
Bruuuuce
According to local newsradio, today Physicians for a National Health Program (including both doctors and nurses) will be at Zucotti Park supporting OWS because “they believe the private insurance companies are making their patients sick.”
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
McMegan has written an article, called “Resistance is futile”, The tagline is “New strategies needed to combat infections that fight them”. Seems like a new thing that an FPer to get right on.
Maude
@Linda Featheringill:
It’s new in US protests. It is growing and the righties on radio are very unhappy. Ain’t that great?
Violet
So what’s up with the Occupiers being arrested in places like Chicago? Did they need permits and not have them? Will they be allowed to get the necessary permits and return? It’s hard to occupy if the police keep sweeping you out of the way.
Linda Featheringill
@Maude:
It is nice to piss off the Other Side. Maybe the righties have tried to irritate liberals because it felt so good.
But the radio right wing demagogues should be unhappy. The occupy movement represents a threat to their turf.
I notice that the Marines are making a conscious effort to pull in the police. That would be amazing.
Omnes Omnibus
@Violet: It is my understanding that the people who were arrested were those who were in the park after it officially closed. I don’t think there will be a problem with people getting back in and continuing.
Linda Featheringill
I checked out the article on arrests in Chicago.
“No war but the class war”? Oh, my.
Violet
@Omnes Omnibus:
So they can “occupy” but they have to leave by a certain time? That’s kind of funny.
There seems to be an increase in city government authorities/police trying to remove protestors. I wonder how it’s going to play out longer term.
Amir Khalid
There has been coverage, in the New York Times and elsewhere, of celebrities at Occupy protests. Some of these, such as Susan Sarandon and Pete Seeger are activists in their own right and don’t need to justify being there; but some aren’t, or at any rate aren’t known for their activism. The coverage seems to hint that some of the celebrity participation is less than wholly sincere, that it’s partly about getting one’s name in the news. And there may be some whom the movement might welcome, but are circumspect about involving themselves lest they invite that kind of suspicion — or worse, inadvertently help turn OWS into a celebrity circus.
What do the Juicitariat* think about this?
(*I know, this is one of m_c’s coinages, but it’s one of the better ones and I rather like it.)
Maude
@Linda Featheringill:
It’s hard to call a Marine a DFH.
Omnes Omnibus
@Violet: Legally, the police are probably on pretty solid ground here. It is a public park that has specific hours where it is off-limits. If the protesters are treated like anyone else who uses the park – allowed in when open, asked to leave at closing, and arrested if over-staying (if anyone else would be), courts would be unlikely to see any First Amendment violation. FWIW I don’t think that the image of protesters filing to to protest every morning at the moment the park opens every morning would be a bad one.
Zagloba
Two outta three ain’t bad.
Violet
@Amir Khalid:
There is probably a some of all of that. There will be the long time activists, like Susan Sarandon, and then there are probably D-listers who just want their name in the headlines a little more often. And probably some celebs who support OWS, but don’t want to make it about them if they visit, so they stay away.
It’s kind of telling that the NYT’s take on it is to talk about celebrities at OWS. Heaven forbid they run a thoughtful, insightful series on 99%-ers and do some real digging into why and how things are the way they are.
Villago Delenda Est
@Amir Khalid:
At the national level, the coverage is all by the vermin of the Village.
They are members of the 1%.
So of course it’s going to be twisted if any celebrities get involved in it.
Fuck the Villagers. Early tumbrel riders, they are.
Violet
@Omnes Omnibus:
Agreed, the image of protestors following the law and filing in to protest every morning could be a good one. I wonder why they decided to break the law and try to stay in the park? Seems like if they follow the rules, they can come back as much as they want. If they don’t, they risk a lot of bad publicity.
Omnes Omnibus
@Amir Khalid: Don’t encourage her. Please.
As far as your question goes, I think it is probably true that some celebrities would bring the focus onto themselves simply by virtue of being there. I look on it the way I did the suggestions that President Obama involve himself in the Wisconsin protests; if he had weighed in, the focus would have been on the Obama vs. Walker battle rather than the people of Wisconsin vs. Walker battle.Supporters of OWS should not do anything to take the focus off the point of the protests, and, if that means, for example, George Clooney should stay clear, then George Clooney should stay clear. N’est-ce pas?
Edited slightly.
Maude
OT, it’s the date of the Beirut Marines.
Linda Featheringill
@Omnes Omnibus: #16
It might also be a way to survive the winter if they got inside for a few hours every night.
jeffreyw
Right now, Bitsy is occupying my chest, purring up a storm, and trying to lick my nose. I have beans with country ham going, they are smelling really good with that posole broth in there. I celebrate!
Villago Delenda Est
@Maude:
One of the most telling incidents in the history of the Saint Ronaldus Maxiumus reign.
The wingtards conveniently forget that one.
Omnes Omnibus
@Linda Featheringill:
That too.
Linda Featheringill
@Amir Khalid: #14
Juicitariat. :-)
But the question of celebrities: I don’t think it is going to matter a whole lot in the long run. Solidarity with some people might prove significant but I think that civil rights warriors might be more important than TV stars.
Besides, the people at OWS seem to be quite capable of calling out people who are just using them to advance an agenda. Look at the way they treated Fox reporters, etc.
Roger Moore
@Maude:
I’m not exactly thrilled, either. I really don’t like the implications of active duty military getting involved in politics. There are too many ways it can end really badly. I guess I’m happier that they’re coming in on my side, but I’d be happiest if they kept out completely.
wobblybits
@Roger Moore: According to the link they are
Violet
@Roger Moore:
I thought they were not active duty. From the above link:
Corner Stone
@Violet:
I have to disagree a little. There’s a reason the protests are called “Occupy” and not “Follow the Rules”.
It’s about a clear display how following the rules in America has failed.
Linda Featheringill
@Roger Moore: #28
Marines.
The Marines are asking for “non-active” military personnel to support the Occupy movement. Vets, I think.
srv
Richard J. Daley would have loved Rahm more than his own sons.
Amir Khalid
@Roger Moore:
Had a look at the Occupy Marines site. They seem well aware of the restriction on political activity by active-duty personnel and scrupulous about respecting it.
Omnes Omnibus
@Roger Moore: Military personnel are not supposed to do anything political while on duty. They are not supposed wear their uniforms or do anything that would indicate that their arm of the service endorses any political message. They are not supposed to do anything, like join the Klan, that would bring discredit on the military. Beyond that, they can be involved in politics. OWS, in particular, is ostensibly non-partisan.
That being said, I do understand and appreciate the concern you express. There just is a difference between the military as an institution being involved and individual members of the military exercising their rights as citizens by becoming involved.
Amir Khalid
Does “non-active” mean reservists as well as veterans?
Corner Stone
Occupy DC focus of ‘ sensitive’discussions
“Numerous local and federal agencies are involved in what has been described as “sensitive and delicate” discussions about the future of the Occupy DC camp in McPherson Square downtown, but as of now the protest will be able to continue, Park Service officials and police said Saturday.
With the number of tents in the park growing and with protesters vowing to stay into winter, officials with the National Park Service, Park Police, District mayor’s office, U.S. Attorney’s office, D.C. Attorney General’s office, District police department and Interior Department have been in constant contact about the situation. “
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: I think you have a good point about the image of protester heading to the protest daily. And my undying gratitude for your use of the term “image,” rather than the often misappropriated “optics.”
Montysano
Depressing developments in the local Occupy group, where administration of the Facebook page is now the major focus of attention. The person who started the local group is also admin of the FB page, where she banned/blocked people and deleted posts and comments, and then started a separate Discussion page, keeping the original page for announcements and news. It was handled clumsily to be sure. Now, the Outrage Junkies are in full butthurt mode, and I’m dreading today’s GA.
As an oldster who has been doing this sort of thing for a while, it’s discouraging.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: There is also a question of choosing your battles. Is a continuous presence in the park during the hours that it is open worth the “cost” of leaving each night? Is the point of the protest to be there and make people aware of 99% idea or is it to break rules in order to demonstrate that following the rules doesn’t work?
Villago Delenda Est
Active duty types can (although personally, I don’t think it’s advisable) wear a candidate’s button while in civilian attire, and have a candidate’s bumper sticker on their privately owned vehicle.
They can’t show up at political events (and Occupy is political, no doubt about that) in uniform. The uniform, as indicated in earlier comments, would imply an official endorsement, and we can’t have that at all. Note that the wearing of military attire does not necessarily constitute wearing the uniform…take off your unit patches and rank insignia, for example, and it’s just surplus. Wear a jacket with blue jeans and it’s definitely not part of a uniform.
Having said that, as a voting officer in my butterbar days, I’d encourage every soldier in the company to vote. I’d tell them I don’t care who they voted for, just as long as they made their voice heard, as a citizen. It was still difficult. Officers don’t need to be browbeaten about it, but the ranks of the enlisted soldiers had their fair share of those who couldn’t be bothered to register to vote, let alone actually do so.
There was a time when officers simply did not vote at all, but when I was in, nearly all of them did…and not necessarily for the GOP, either…although I’d hazard that a majority would vote GOP.
Obviously, the Marine organizers (who are taking the lead for all the members of the service) are fully aware of those constraints, and are working to make sure that they’re known as vets/reservists, to demonstrate the breadth of the occupy movement.
Corner Stone
@Omnes Omnibus: I think the questions themselves are a fundamental difference in how we perceive the protests.
IMO, the statement of defiance, and what it entails is more important than an orderly entry and exit where they tip their cap to the Guvnor.
What message is sent if the protest is reduced to a 9 to 5 job structure?
Linda Featheringill
@Amir Khalid: #36
I think so but I really don’t know.
Violet
@Corner Stone:
There’s also the “It’s our park. We pay for it. We own it. We’re occupying it.” aspect to the whole thing. It’s a public park, right?
geg6
What Omnes said. The message is more important than acting out adolescent rebellion fantasies.
That said, here in the ‘Burgh, Occupy Pittsburgh has, generally good press and TPTB seem fine with them. Went to town and spent some time with them the past two weekends. Though the usual suspects who are at EVERY local protest are certainlyin evidence, they do not seem to be running the show. And it shows in that they are better organized and have better pr and media relations people than any of the usual suspects have ever shown any evidence of having. Gives me hope, it does.
Corner Stone
@Violet:
I just think that’s kind of the main point.
Corner Stone
@geg6:
Well, that certainly settles that.
Jennifer
Don’t want to piss on anyone’s parade, but I can’t see an end game to these occupations. What does Richie Rich care if a bunch of protestors spend the winter shivering inside tents? It’s no skin off his nose. The group here in LR is “occupying” the parking lot of the Clinton Center, which is about as far off the beaten path as you can get – it’s at the end of a dead-end road, and the only people who go there are visitors to the library (usually out-of-towners) and folks who need a place to turn around so they can circle back to the River Market and look for a parking place. I mean, I just don’t see what it is supposed to accomplish to be campaing out of sight/out of mind. If you want visibility, why not pitch your tent on the front lawn of the state Capitol, only about a mile away, and right in the thick of things? I just don’t get it.
I keep circling back to the notion that the only things that really gets these folks’ attention are things that cost them money. I’m guessing the OWS movement has at most 2 – 3 months to morph into something that actually threatens the 1% if it is to survive as a movement; otherwise, it will peter out without having accomplished anything. Sorry to be such a Debbie Downer.
One other thing though, about the celebrity component: it was suggested over at roy’s that what these rich fucks need is a telethon to bring awareness to their suffering. I agreed but thought it should go further, into a Live Aid/We Are the World extravaganza. A celebrity benefit for our poor suffering overlords would, I think, be a FABULOUS idea as it would expose them to the derision and ridicule they so richly deserve and which is really necessary for the masses to become comfortable with if we are going to shake off their oppression. Some other wag over at roy’s suggested we call it “We Own the World” which I just love, and I came up with a theme song that goes like this:
We own the world,
We are the wealthy.
But at the moment our portfolios aren’t as healthy.
There’s a choice we’re making,
We’re feathering our own nests.
A lot of you don’t even have jobs,
But what the heck.
Though we could substitute that last line with “Sucks to be you” and it might better capture the flavor.
I guess I’m just suggesting that rather than everyone in the country following the lead of OWS and setting up their own impotent camps, perhaps we need to be expanding the horizons and tactics of the movement. So my ideas are “We Own the World” and the coordinated debt default I’ve talked about previously. That last is the one thing most likely to get us somewhere. I just don’t see anything happening unless we bring the (financial) pain to the guilty parties.
harlana
@jeffreyw: now that’s living! what more does one need, really.
and i don’t even know what posole is.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: Who said anything about tipping one’s cap? Unless the whole point of the protest is to cock a snook at a authority, I don’t see a major issue with following whatever rules there are that do not interfere with the actual protesting. If you give the powers that be an excuse to come down on the protests over a rule violation, they will do so. If you don’t and they still come down on them, it will be obvious that it is because of the message. Don’t give them the excuse to muddy the waters. The people in Zuccotti Park aren’t using loudspeakers for that exact reason.
harlana
For a contrast, just watch the “Faith and Freedom” vomit-off. I’m still proud of myself for sitting through a chunk of it. If I’d managed to sit through the whole thing, I would give myself a badge of honor.
Maude
@Jennifer:
OWS isn’t broke. No need the fix it.
You wouldn’t have like Gandhi’s tactics either.
This is very effective and it’s spreading.
It’s not about action, it’s about standing pat.
harlana
i’m not worried about an “end game” just now. i’m just so glad people are talking, that we’ve finally acknowledged the “dirty little secret” that the average person is fucked and has actually been fucked for some time now. we need to have this conversation! i never thought this moment would come, where the wedge issues that usually divide us don’t matter anymore! what is important is the health of our nation as a whole and the first step is to recognize cause and effect. we are finally there and I thank God. whatever comes, a consciousness has been raised, both national and global. it is a cathartic moment for many who have suffered in silence for a long time. it is a sort of “national therapy.” nothing but good can come of that. it’s where healing begins.
bjacques
Occupy Amsterdam are well into their second week. They’re still on the small square in front of the Amsterdam stock exchange, just down the main drag from Centraal Station. The weather this weekend has been clear but cold; it’s a nice change from the week.
I counted about 80 pup tents (including one teepee) and about a half-dozen bigger tents for meetings, food and information.
The VVD (neoliberals) party that’s also the biggest part of the coalition government is leaning on the Amsterdam mayor to clear the protesters out by this weekend–er, I mean hold a discussion with the protesters before kicking them out. Also, there’s a Christmas market that sets up in November.
Omnes Omnibus
@Violet: Roads are public as well, yet there are speed limits. As I said earlier, as long as the park rules are being applied to the protesters as they would be to anyone else using the park, there is no real legal argument against them. Courts uphold things like this as valid time, place, and manner restrictions all the time. The moment it becomes about the message, there is a First Amendment issue.
Lawnguylander
If laws are in place that say you have to vacate the park by a certain time, then it’s up to the protestors to decide whether they want to enage in civil disobedience or not, right? If they just want to stay visible, then they can leave and come back. I’m not there so I’m not going to be the guy to tell them to suck up the fines and clog up the legal system. Especially since I’m not sure what that would accomplish. But if they do get lawfully arrested then I hope they keep their cool and people not in the park don’t lose their shit either. Save that bellyaching about hippie punching shit. Nobody likes whiners.
Jennifer
Where did I suggest that the initial action wasn’t helpful or necessary? I didn’t.
But perhaps those of you who disagree with me that there needs to be some thought about “what’s next” can tell me how camping in a park is going to get the 1% to part with their advantages, or get the elected officials they own to start doing business a different way. I can’t see how you or me shivering in the cold brings any pressure to bear on them to do anything differently than they do it now.
Davis X. Machina
@harlana:
True, but for a rather small ‘us’. When did alle Menschen werden Brüder? I watch the news, and should have caught it.
Michael D.
Some pictures from Occupy Amsterdam.
I marched with them yesterday. It was awesome – except for the “not understanding a word of Dutch” part.
schrodinger's cat
@jeffreyw: Pictures or it didn’t happen.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jennifer: When one starts a comment by saying “Don’t want to piss on anyone’s parade, but…”, it is usually a sign that one does, in fact, want to do just that. Maybe you don’t see an end-game because these guys are interested in getting things started. They seem to have found a way to do that. You have ideas for the next step? Great. Get to work organizing it or get the ideas to someone who can.
harlana
we have been a drugged nation, we were also mentally drugged with consumerism and hypnotized by a corporate trance. but the forces that kept us under have become so bold and so aggressive in their greed that even a person under the influence can recognize an imminent threat and respond.
harlana
@schrodinger’s cat:
i second that!
harlana
@Omnes Omnibus: i agree. right now, i am letting others do the work that i once had the energy and passion to do and have no right or inclination to critique them
Jennifer
@Omnes Omnibus: Quite often, prefacing a comment such is meant to say, “hey, great job so far, but, has it occured to you that…?”
And also, to head off the inevitable “you’re just trying to piss on our parade that IS SO WORKING TO DO EVERYTHING WE EVER NEEDED DONE” accusations, like the one you just made.
Linda Featheringill
@Davis X. Machina:
I know this is 3/4 snark. But really, the news wouldn’t cover it if it did happen.
“What next” is a conversation among the 99%, perhaps several of them. At some point, perhaps people will be willing to say, “We agree on what the problem is. Now, what do we do about it?”
I expect to see demands accompanied by wide-spread strikes. But I really don’t know what will happen.
Maude
@Jennifer:
It’s not a wedding reception where you make plans. This thing has spread because people understand what has happened to us.
It will go the way it is supposed to. It is international.
It’s not about an end game.
Jennifer
@harlana: And again with the surmise that this is a “critique”.
It’s interesting that still no one has stepped up to the plate to explain how it hurts the Koch brothers or thwarts their evil objectives for people to spend the winter shivering in tents.
Linda Featheringill
@Michael D.: #59
Occupy Amsterdam.
Cool pics. Thanks for sharing. Warmed my heart.
harlana
@Jennifer: you may critique if you wish – this is an open forum as far as i know
Bill E Pilgrim
@Jennifer: You should watch this, if you haven’t by chance. Krugman describes how insane the national conversation was and how people like him were writing and writing about it, but OWS has actually seemed to change it.
In response Olbermann asks almost the precise question you did, and Krugman gives a good response, pointing out for one thing that Barack Obama has changed in what he talks about.
I’ve actually never understood all of the insistence that Obama had no power to move the conversation, or that it was political suicide to try, or especially that people asking him to, demanding it, clamoring for him to do so, was somehow the height of stupidity or evil. It’s not just that I didn’t agree, I also just couldn’t fathom what some of the people here were thinking.
He’s a politician, he himself has made it clear over and over, saying “Tell me. Hold my feet to the fire”. He was going to move to the right and hope to gather as many votes there as he could, precisely up to the point where he and his team thought it was costing them too many votes on the left, or any, to speak of, and then he would move back in that direction.
I’m sorry if that sounds terribly cynical to people or you know unfair to him but he’s a politician, an extremely practical one, if nothing else has become clear these past few years that has.
The Wingnuts of course are claiming that it’s the other way around, that far left soc ialst Obama stirred all this up with his rhetoric, and got an otherwise placid obedient left all riled up and protesting. The mind reels with sarcastic replies.
In any case there’s a reason that OWS and others wanted to change the conversation, and that’s because as you point out if it only stays within their ranks it really has had little effect. Obama is just one of the people that protesters want to influence, but getting him, in particular, to start talking up these issues more strongly is extremely important, and as I say also renders the view that “it doesn’t matter what he says” utterly absurd.
Jennifer
@Maude: If it’s not about an end game, then it’s pointless. There’s no need for people to be living in the parks to accomplish NOTHING. I do agree that it will go the way it is supposed to; my hope it that it isn’t just “supposed to” fall apart with nothing having changed, which is where it COULD go if the only objective is setting up camps all over the place.
harlana
@Michael D.: thanks for sharing those!
Jennifer
@Bill E Pilgrim: Again, I’m not criticizing what has taken place so far. I’m just saying that setting up camps alone isn’t going to fix anything, because it doesn’t cause discomfort for those who need to be discomforted.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Jennifer: By the way I don’t disagree with what you wrote in that comment and then the following ones which I’ve now read also. This is just a response to your question about what OWS has already accomplished.
If real and lasting changes come from all this then they’re not likely to be in the form of a permanent occupation of public places, clearly, but something else.
Omnes Omnibus
@Jennifer: I did not remotely say that it is doing everything. I think that what these people have done is to start sparking awareness of a situation. From this awareness, there may come actions to correct the situation or it may fizzle out. This depends on the actions of everyone else. It really does help if you read the comment before responding to it.
Also too, if you cannot see the difference between “hey, great job so far, but, has it occurred to you that…?” and “Don’t want to piss on anyone’s parade, but…”, then you have some issues.
Also also too, I was one of the people who initially had concerns about whether this would be portrayed as just a bunch of hippies and thus alienate the “normals,” but my concerns were rather quickly overtaken by events as this has spread and more people have joined. These guys seem to know how to get their message out and getting the message out is really their primary mission. You are looking at the next step, which is great, but the first step is still happening.
Bill E Pilgrim
@Jennifer: I thought yours was a good question and noticed that Olbermann did too because he asked it also almost verbatim. Thus thought that it and the response might interest you.
harlana
i can say, from personal experience, that this movement has been good for me. i mean i tried to make a difference several years ago and it just blew up. i became bitter and felt like a victim and then later, scared, because i was looking for work and paranoid about any political activities being discovered.
in my crazy days, aside from political activism, i had 2 letters to the editor published in my very red state paper. the second one, about iraq – my Canadian friend from work grabbed me and gave me the European kiss on each cheek for that! that was the only reaction i got, i’m guessing my boss may have been pissed, but he must have forgiven me.
then, i shut down because i felt i had to in order to survive. so i think, in short, it has inspired me to actually go out and do something and make my one small contribution, instead of raging against the machine, as i once did, out of a sense of helplessness and victimhood. the machine is powerful but the first step in minimizing its power, reducing the harmful affects of “machinations”, is to recognize it for what it is, to put a name to it, that is what is happening.
Maude
@Jennifer:
The WWI vets were in tents. They went through a lot to get what they deserved.
Passive resistance is effective. It is the fact that OWS people are there. It is in a way a state of being. The press has to cover them.
You want answers to what we don’t know.
There’s no plan of action. It isn’t corporate where we would have flow charts.
It’s working. That’s the point.
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
@Jennifer: Life is fucking pointless, what’s your point?
piratedan
must be time for an NFL open thread…. unless we all wanna talk about Man U getting thrashed at home?
General Stuck
@Bill E Pilgrim:
You really don’t or haven’t been following what Obama says in this country. He has been talking the same way all along, only now it is campaign season and he is wrapping it in partisan populist language that is appropriate for that season, and not the serious governing, or trying to govern season. Why don’t you write about French politics, if you still live there. It is painful to read your comments here about the nuances of political life in this country, that no way you can get. But nice try.
OWS is not a leftist movement, at least at the beginning. And so far, they have wanted little to do with the pro left and their foot soldiers too.
jeffreyw
@harlana:
This is my take on it
Violet
@Jennifer:
I don’t think people spending the winter shivering in tents does hurt the Koch brothers. But if the people shivering in tents changes the public conversation, as Bill E Pilgrim pointed out that it already has, then that’s a win. Changing the conversation allows everyone to discuss in public the fact that inequality is staggering, growing, and yes, a great big problem.
Once people have absorbed that they can talk about it, there are others like them that believe the same thing, then people can begin to organize around that issue. And if policies change as a result of that organizing, then THAT is how the Kochs and others like them will be hurt. Financially, anyway.
It’s a ways down the line, but the discourse has changed, the cat is out of the bag, and the 1% is nervous, as judged by what you see on Fox and other wingnut media outlets. Those are all good signs.
Bill E Pilgrim
@General Stuck: Ah General Stuck. You could get more things wrong in one paragraph if you took courses or something but that was close!
Just for one thing, OWS being “the left” all riled up by Obama is the right wing view of things that I was reporting. Not mine.
I actually can’t tell if you think I’m French and not from the US from your confused comment but let me state that it’s the latter. And I lived back in the US for a lot of the last few years, until just recently. By the way, Paul Krugman says in that clip that he thinks OWS has changed Obama’s rhetoric (he actually also says, rather interestingly that he sees a change in the Fed conversations, which is sort of amazing if true) so I have to assume you think that Paul Krugman is too “French” to “get” US politics also.
I often try just out of politeness to start with “Oh don’t misunderstand me” when addressing people but honestly I think it’s sort of a given in your case that you will, so I skipped it this time, sorry.
Linda Featheringill
@Bill E Pilgrim: #71
:-)
Maude
@General Stuck:
They have given the Pro Left and their foot soldiers the boot. Gotta like them for that.
Jennifer
Tell me that a benefit concert highlighting the plight of these people and others like them wouldn’t be the bomb. I bet there are enough Susan Sarandons et al in the biz that it could be pulled off.
WereBear (itouch)
@schrodinger’s cat: Blessings on you for your cheezefriends outreach. Talked to a wonderful lady yesterday who wants to take BOTH of the remaining kittens!
You were wonderful to do that.
harlana
the level of fear that existed where i live in even being identified as a Democrat cannot be understated, it still exists because we are so outnumbered. even well-educated people here are stupid enough to support tea party candidates. it is a sad state of affairs. I tell myself Haley is too stupid to be as evil as DeMint. either way we are fucked!
Violet
@Jennifer:
I think some sort of fake “benefit concert” highlighting the “plight of the rich” would be really funny. I think it would be hard to pull off though, because if the celebs are rich too. The hypocrisy of rich celebs making fun of other rich people would be a bit too obvious.
Davis X. Machina
@Linda Featheringill:
So do I. But I expect an American version of les évènements de Mai. They threw out a government — and killed DeGaulle, effectively. But…
So, something we’ll look back on, admire and teach. Something that made for great film, great art, created a generation of ‘names’ — and foundered on the oil shocks, inflation, and cultural backlash, leaving the substrate in place, and the forces of reaction stronger than ever.
Capitalism, if you go by Braudel’s timeline anyways, is 650 years old. It will bury us all.
Amir Khalid
@piratedan:
I remember one season where United were thumped 7-0 and 5-0 in consecutive weeks, and they still won the Prem.
SiubhanDuinne
@jeffreyw:
You know the rule, jeffreyw. Heck, you invented it. Pictures, or it didn’t happen.
Jennifer
harlana – aw hell, I live in frickin’ ARKANSAS and have never ceased to rub it in to the bufords that they’re being played for rubes. My favorite was: “I’m not voting for Bush because I have a policy of not hiring people who know less than I do, and there’s no way I’m voting for a guy who isn’t as smart as I am to be president.” Which left them with either 1)admitting that they were dumber than Bush or 2)adopting the nihilistic POV that it really doesn’t matter if a dumb guy is president.
Good times, good times. Marred only by being ruled by a sociopathic nitwit.
schrodinger's cat
@WereBear (itouch): You are most welcome and thank you for saying that! Your work with the kittehs is truly an inspiration.
BTW if you can give me the details of the adoption, I can ask Bluesfan to put in the Cheeztown cryer with pictures of kittens, if possible.
Jennifer
@Violet: maybe it needs to be poor schlubs impersonating rich celebs.
Then again, Bono is a big enough fame whore that the hypocrisy probably wouldn’t bother him too much, and there may be others in that category.
General Stuck
I never said it was you claiming it was the left. It was you claiming the wingers claiming such, which kind of sounds like a round about your usual smarmy way of making points. But I could be wrong, but don’t thinks so.
I know you’re not French, duh, but are an ex pat living there. If I was living for a long time in a foreign country on another continent, I wouldn’t be able to get the nuances of pol life in the US. That is not an insult. Just point of obvious fact.
And Krugman is a flaming idiot on about anything to do with politics. He ought to stick to econ theory, lest he again and again makes a fool of himself with comical political punditry.
And your injection of trying to vindicate the firebagging from some quarters of the left is expected, if not silly. There is zero connection between them and the OWS protests. Not in rhetoric or action. I think they were likely sparked by Obama’s campaign season populist tone, and the winger level of b belligerent increase with opposing his jobs bill after he addressed the joint congress, finally reached a threshold point to get them on the streets. But they seem self contained to me, from general politics, and I hope it stays that way.
SiubhanDuinne
@schrodinger’s cat:
Sorry, I completely missed yours. Thought I was being so clever.
Violet
@Jennifer:
Bono isn’t American, so having him make fun of American rich people might not go down well either. I love the idea, I just think it would be hard to pull off.
Making a series of fake “Can you spare just $1 a day to help these rich people” videos, a la Save The Children might work just as well. If they were done well and were funny, they’d likely go viral with a little OWS help.
harlana
@SiubhanDuinne: food prOn will not suffice
harlana
@Jennifer: thanks for sharing that. this last line is classic:
WereBear (itouch)
@schrodinger’s cat: Oooh, what a great idea! I do think people would like to see the “happy ending” since she said it was cheezfriends that had led her to my post.
Will alert you once the handoff is complete and I have new pics. Will be motoring south, hopefully with a friend, later this week.
harlana
@Violet: i like it
Jennifer
@Violet: Ah, who cares if Bono isn’t a USAmerican? IIRC, the god he believes in “isn’t short on cash, mister.”
jwb
@General Stuck: Obama has in fact tried to talk this way on numerous occasions during his presidency. Part of the deal is that we are headed into prime campaign season, that is true. But part of it is that OWS has opened a hole for Obama’s message to run through. It has allowed Obama to cut to the left without running from the center. That’s one reason I think it’s crucial that OWS remains nonpartisan: fundamentally OWS represents everyone who is forgotten in “normal” political calculations. Remember My Forgotten Man.
Southern Beale
Saw on the Twitter feed that Occupy Atlanta was running into problems with the police this weekend, too. I think they were being evicted. Don’t know what happened … guess I could Google it…
Bill E Pilgrim
@General Stuck: So if I was clearly ridiculing the right for claiming that OWS represented Obama having stirred up the docile left, then why are you responding to that by telling me “OWS is not a leftist movement”?
You know what… never mind.
Obama talking more about income inequality is going to put him more in line with the left than the right, and you can call that coincidence or anything else you want, but it’s a fact. But it doesn’t mean that OWS is “leftist” as any kind of label, that wasn’t the point.
I don’t talk “Firebaggers” or “Obots” or any of the other team sports, sorry. I never do. Other than that I’ll just let the first post I made stand, since — anyway, there we are.
msskwesq
@Corner Stone: That is exactly right. It is Occupy Chicago, not spend the day in a park in Chicago. I watched the whole thing unfold on UStream last night and the arrests were orderly, but very unnecessary. Many other cities have given the Occupiers permits, either through formal or informal channels, to stay in the city parks. There was even a federal judge who ruled in the occupiers favor in Cincinnati I believe,based on First Amendment right to peaceful assembly. Rham Emmanuel better get on the right side of all this or there may be a lot of trouble for his administration. The everyday citizen is in this crowd, teachers, students, the retired, the unemployed, city workers, NOT just agitators or lefties. I heard a commentator last night talk about how the G-8 is coming to Chicago in the Spring and the city is really, really worried about the chaos that is sure to follow. They do not want a big 99% presence in the city during that meeting, fears of riots and worse are being discussed. Watch Chicago on this movement, it is going to get really interesting…
Southern Beale
Okay here’s the latest….
That reminds me, I saw Naomi Klein on some show the other day, she was talking about how free speech is being limited by all of these “fees” that cities levy for protests and whatnot. It’s kinda the same concept as a poll tax, let’s make people jump through so many hoops and pay all this money just to exercise their rights.
Another thing I’ve noticed is the dwindling amount of public space. Here in Nashville private developers have build fake public spaces — open-air “walking” shopping centers and such, they look like a “real” street but they’re not, they’re all private property. If someone wanted to stage a protest of, say, Whole Foods you couldn’t because it’s on private property. And the mall developer has hired a private security force whose uniforms are very militarized. They look like jack-booted thugs.
Yeah, we get the message.
Bill E Pilgrim
@jwb:
Bingo.
And again.
SiubhanDuinne
@Jennifer:
Wish that article had provided a mailing address so I could send a sympathy card.
SiubhanDuinne
@harlana:
You’re right. Thread needs moar kitteh :-)
General Stuck
@jwb:
Regardless of the chicken/egg debate, right now I fully agree that if handled adroitly by Obama’s campaign staff, there can be a synergistic effect from both groups, prez and OWS. But it will take threading pol needles and O and company need to give OWS the non partisan space it needs to be most effective, imo.
And how many times has Obama the past few years gotten rhetorically tough with the wingers, only to have the pro left wring their hands and cry “unpresidential”. The OWS can well give Obama the indirect support he needs to bring the populist rhetoric to it’s full potential. They need to resist ideologues from co opting their righteous protest though. I wonder about that.
IOW”, I agree with your take.
Southern Beale
@Amir Khalid:
Oh meh. If only the news media could do something about that. Oh wait, they can. They can just not cover which celebrities showed up to an event. Fuckitall.
You know what, New York Times? You don’t own Occupy Wall Street, either. Who the fuck are you to sanction who can and cannot show up to see for their own selves what’s going on? Who gives a crap if Kim Kardashian decides to see what it’s all about? WTF, are we going to now say only certain people have the proper revolutionary cred to show up at an event?
Fuck that shit, six ways to Thursday.
jwb
@General Stuck: I agree that OWS will be most effective if it can maintain a nonpartisan stance; its power derives from simply testifying to all the political system as currently constituted ignores. On the other hand, I do wish that OWS would endorse the idea that everyone in the 99% should vote.
Warren Terra
From Ruben Bolling: Frank Bruni (who spent the last decade being paid to dine at five-star restaurants and fluff George W Bush) tells people that if they’re not poor they can’t complain, and can’t be part of #OWS.
General Stuck
@jwb:
From polls, it seems a large number of them haven’t bothered to vote recently. They may well be part of a larger group of citizens who have long since given up on the pol process, but just couldn’t take the level of greed we have now. This is a good thing, and why we need such a stark contrast in worldview with the wingnuts, that Obama is pumping out, to get them voting and get those votes. And maybe convince more of the long term non voters to come out and vote too. Lots of good possibilities, though with some possible pitfalls as well. I don’t think so far, these folks are all that ideological, they see what we all see, a permanent dissolution of the middle class dream, in favor of the rich getting richer. That is all the message they need, imo, and should stick to for simplicity sake.
schrodinger's cat
@Warren Terra: I sometimes think that Bruni was hired to make Bobo and Mustache of Wisdom look good.
Cain
We need a twitter revolution on getting people to vote. Also get people to start going after advertisers on right wing channels. Suck those guys dry of funding. Market forces baby.
jpe
@Violet: And the public has decided through its representatives that they want the parks closed at certain times and subject to some basic rules of decency.
That’s still democratic process, even if it doesn’t smell like patchouli.
jpe
@Southern Beale:
The fees are nominal.
Davis X. Machina
@jwb:
A non-trivial portion of the movement has decided that that doesn’t matter, that it is incapable of yielding change.
Which move is risky and/or irresponsible.
Premise 1: The bullet or the ballot. (1)
Premise 2: The ballot is a shuck, a farce, a scam.
The conclusion is left as an exercise to the reader.
(1) I’m interested in any tertium quid.
Corner Stone
@jpe: Wow. Loosen your tie and have a seat by the campfire amigo.
We’re telling the one about the scratching noises on the roof of the car next.
FlipYrWhig
@Bill E Pilgrim:
I don’t remember anyone saying that. What I remember was refutations of the notion that “moving the conversation” would be a way to get better policy enacted. E.g., “this health care bill sucks because Obama didn’t move the conversation,” or “use the bully pulpit,” or the equivalent. And, lo and behold, even though there is now a different conversation, Obama _still_ isn’t getting better policy enacted. I like this new conversation, but it’s not the same as legislation that helps people in tangible ways.
That’s why the running debate has actually been about the appropriate balance between doing whatever needs doing to get filibuster-proof votes on policy, including by catering to conservative elements within the Democratic party, on the one hand; and, on the other, talking a good progressive/Keynesian game in full awareness that the votes aren’t going to be there to actually do it.
Samara Morgan
From Denver:
51 protestors were arrested, and all have been released with the help of volunteer legal aid hotline.
Someone wonderful donated a LOT of elk and venison and the Occupiers are having a bar-be-que tonite.
Dr. Morpheus
@Omnes Omnibus:
Note: Not directed at you Omnes, but where is the fucking logic behind “As long as we treat everyone the same we can violate the Constitution.”?
What part of “…no law…” is unclear to these fucktard judges?
And don’t get me started on the equally pin-headed decision that road block DUI checks aren’t a violation of the Fourth Amendment.
Dr. Morpheus
@Corner Stone:
Agreed, besides having 1,000 people arrested every night is going to have a much bigger impact than an easily ignorable 1,000 people meekly filing in and out of the park like good little drones.
pixelpusher
My daughter, Evelyn DeHais (creator of the BJ Tunch FEED art), got herself arrested in Chicago last night. Haven’t heard from her since. Word is, the police are going make it last to teach the kids a lesson.
nancydarling
@pixelpusher: Would you keep us updated? I hope all goes well for her and the others. Bless them all!
jayjaybear
I think the operating rationale for OWS is “Too Big To Jail”. They can arrest 50 people, or 100 people, but they can’t arrest 1000 people. There are just too many for that. And the lead-up to it propagates the message. Nothing attracts attention like someone being dragged away by police.
Omnes Omnibus
@Dr. Morpheus: The idea is that closing the park at a certain time is not a rule that aimed at speech. It has an effect on it, but the effect is incidental. Google time place and manner restrictions.
pixelpusher
@nancydarling: Sure. She just got to make her one phone call fifteen minutes. She wearing layers, but it’s an unheated concrete cell (shared with one other person), and she’s getting very cold. Word is they’ve released about 10 of the 150 that were arrested last night. More details when they come in.
Ozymandias, King of Ants
@harlana: “I have had it with these motherfucking
snakes strangers on this motherfucking plane!”pixelpusher
Fifteen minutes ago. Around 6:30.
pixelpusher
@pixelpusher: Ev is out. But the fact that the police knocked down the medical tent and arrested the nurses that were there for first aid purposes has opened a whole new front in the struggle. See the story here.
Mark
The NYT coverage of OWS (whoa too many acronyms…) has been woeful. Oh and according to some right-wing big heads the protesters are conservatives, they “just don’t know it yet”…
-http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/think-tanked/post/occupy-wall-street-protesters-are-conservatives-they-just-dont-know-it-says-aei/2011/10/17/gIQABLrEsL_blog.html