Unbelievable.
Looks like Time Warner has a bit of a PR debacle on its hands.
A Time Warner customer service representative, Julia Nelson, died at her desk at a Time Warner customer call center in Garfield Heights, Ohio last month. It turns out that a Time Warner employee (who refused to be interviewed on camera) began to administer CPR to the dying woman, but was ordered by a supervisor to stop, and to get back to work. The employee also said that another boss told her that she could be held liable in the event that something went wrong as a result of the potentially life-saving treatment that see was performing on Nelson.
Not only did Time Warner let one of its long-time employees die, Time Warner prevented any of its other employees from doing anything to help.
It’s unconscionable.
From Crooks and Liars:
Boss Told Me To Stop Giving Dying Co-Worker CPR, Says Service Rep
Last month, a Time Warner Cable customer service rep died at her desk. After any unexpected death, people searched for answers, explanations, someone to blame. But in this case, there may have actually been something foul afoot. A local news station reports that after a co-worker began giving CPR to 67-year-old Julia Nelson, a supervisor allegedly told her to stop and “get back on the phone and take care of customers.”
Nelson slumped at her desk at the Time Warner Call Center in Garfield Heights, Ohio, and wasn’t breathing by the time paramedics arrived. But before that happened, a co-worker rushed over and began administering CPR, the woman told WOIO, only to be asked to stop. Employees at the scene have confirmed this report.
The woman was also told later by another supervisor that she could be “held liable if something goes wrong.”
Ohio has a “Good Samaritan” law on the books, however, which protects bystanders who provide emergency aid from being sued for unintentional injury or wrongful death.
Thanks to this legal immunity, many employees have used CPR to save co-workers lives without any risk to themselves. Last year, two co-workers resuscitated 55-year-old Brenda Halliburton after she collapsed at her desk at American Baptist Churches. One performed CPR, while the other gave her a jolt with an Automated External Defibrillator. In July, Alex Molina saw his co-worker at Yuma Proving Grounds slumped in his carseat. Thinking he was sleeping, Molina pulled over to give him a joking scare, but ended up giving him CPR until the paramedics arrived.
Unfortunately, Nelson didn’t receive similar care.
Time Warner released a statement, denying any wrongdoing: “Time Warner responded appropriately to a medical emergency. Our company has procedures in place to respond to emergencies. We are saddened by the loss of one of our employees who was a co-worker and a friend. Our thoughts are with the family during this difficult time.”
Police are reviewing the incident, according to WOIO.
Since corporations are people, why not throw Time Warner in jail? Just bulldoze Time Warner headquarters and dump the rubble in a hole.
Assholes.
[via Crooks and Liars]
[cross-posted at Angry Black Lady Chronicles]
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
Don’t you just love that compassionate free market?
Tom Levenson
I once worked for Time Inc. Haven’t for almost 30 years. But reading this makes me feel retrospectively dirty. Just the association…
Oy.
Maude
That time Warner statement should read: We are huddled with our lawyers. We’ll get back to you later.
Menzies
Unbelievable. Period.
Mark B.
I can’t believe that the supervisor didn’t know about the Good Samaritan law. Where I work, not only do we have free cpr training [I have it, although my certification isn’t current, it’s been a few years] we also have automatic defibrillators on each floor. There’s no excuse for Time Warner to be so ill-prepared. This isn’t just a matter of people being nice, it ought to be policy for any decent sized organization for people to be trained and prepared … and know what to do in this kind of situation. [edited for clarity]
Dimmic Rat
This is among the most fucked up things I have ever read.
Jenny
This is a part of Time-Warner’s new Solyent Green division.
Boycott Time magazine and CNN (including the dreamy himbo Anderson Cooper).
freelancer
@Mark B.:
Agreed. I just started a new position, and at the company, they actually offer training for CPR and defib procedures for those who want to get certified. If TW asked the employee to refrain because they had other individuals designated to be first responders, that would be one thing. This is craven and disgusting.
General Stuck
Just checked the NM Good Samaritan law and it is absolutely wide open for anyone to help out in an emergency, unless there is “gross negligence”. Like maybe dropping a cinder block on someone. It doesn’t surprise me for this state, that is famous for having as few and most simple laws of anywhere I’ve ever lived. Sometimes it is a bad thing, like finally banning cock fighting a few years ago, one of the last two states to allow it.
This woman’s family ought to have a field day with Time Warner, or at least their lawyer will, and deservedly so.
Roger Moore
@Menzies:
I beg to differ. This is all too believable. I have no trouble believing that an idiotic manager would do something like this. I can even imagine a committee of lawyers and accountants deciding it was a good policy because it was cheaper to let an employee die than pay for their hospitalization. It’s all about the bottom line.
bystander
Jeeze. Particularly, since I’ve recently read that first responders are encouraged to focus exclusively on chest compressions. The more complicated compressions + ventilation protocol has been relaxed. As one EMT spokesperson put it,
Rich2506
Just finished reading a piece that says if anyone doesn’t understand what Occupy Wall Street is all about, you’re a blithering idiot (We just had a guy in our local paper say that he went down to our local occupation and surprise, surprise! Amazingly enough, he couldn’t tell by reading the hand-held signs at a distance, just what the Occupation was all about).
This story shows precisely the problem, companies putting profits above people.
Mark B.
As I understand it, any well-intentioned act which does not actually impede professionals is pretty much protected from liability under Good Samaritan laws. So, until the EMTs arrive, you’re pretty much free to try anything you can to attempt to help, short of pouring gasoline on the victim and lighting it on fire. Once the EMTs arrive, you should tell them what you know and get out of the way.
Quarks
@Menzies: Unfortunately all too believable. This has Overenthusiastic Human Resource Management written all over it.
There’s a reason why so many companies have policies telling employees and supervisors to contact HR for any medical issues that come up in the workplace, major or minor, and it’s not for the benefit of employees.
WereBear (itouch)
I can actually understand a supervisor telling someone to back off out of fear of liability. Sorta.
It’s the part about being told to go back to work. That’s the really twisted part.
So corporations are people. Psychopathic ones.
SiubhanDuinne
@Tom Levenson:
I know how you feel. On e upon a time, I was employed by Union Carbide.
SiubhanDuinne
@Tom Levenson:
I know how you feel. Once upon a time, I was employed by Union Carbide.
Mark B.
Off topic: Zooey Deschanel singing the National Anthem at the World Series. She’s kind of mediocre as a singer, but at least she remembered the words.
Jay in Oregon
It’s like Corporate America is practically daring us to do something.
“Fuck yeah, we let someone die because we’re concerned about the liability. What are you going to do about it, prole?“
piratedan
makes me wonder if Time Warner is one of those outfits that holds life insurance policies on their employees, so its win-win, the employee dies, company gets the cash, they hire in someone else for a lesser salary because jobs are so scarce. Profits!
Randiego
Have to note that Time Warner Cable is no longer part of Time Warner itself. Awful story. Just moved to Directv myself.
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
At least we don’t have to guess when the Neo-Gilded Age comes. This proves that we’re already well into it, if there’s absolutely no pending suit for this bullshit.
SiubhanDuinne
@Randiego:
You know what, though? I think I’ll boycott CNN anyhow.
arguingwithsignposts
@SiubhanDuinne: I will continue boycotting CNN as I have for a while now.
Randiego
@SiubhanDuinne: I was thinking earlier today that I unintentionally gave up on CNN months ago.
PurpleGirl
@Maude: Yup. You got that right. It’s disgusting.
Amir Khalid
I wonder what kind of person a boss has to be to tell a subordinate, “Let her die. Get back to work!”
Yeah: back to work, selling cable TV subscriptions. Incidentally, what was the company’s “appropriate” response to a worker having a life-threatening medical emergency? It certainly didn’t end up saving the poor woman.
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@Amir Khalid:
You gotta love the fact too that they have a First Aid Room….locked. With the Defib unit locked inside as well. Aren’t there laws that require full access to that or something? I mean, Jesus, the malls here have them on each floor out in the fucking open, same with the train stations.
jwb
@arguingwithsignposts: I’ve pretty much given up on TV altogether. About the only thing I watch any more is an occasional game on a non-Fox station.
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
Who will speak for the savvy businessmen?
.
.
PIGL
What I can’t get past is their brazen claim to have “responded appropriately in a medical emergency”. How do they imagine that this will be understood? What specific response did they make, and how was it “appropriate”?
They should all only DIAF. Not the line workers, but the manager and all his superior officers, right up to the CEO.
Gex
@piratedan: I’m pretty certain a company that size has those policies on their employees.
Mike G
I hope the dead woman’s family sues the ass off Time Warner.
Unfortunately all too believable. This has Overenthusiastic Human Resource Management written all over it.
(Teabaggers)But private corporations are All-Murkan symbols of freedumb and efficiency. Unless you’re one of those non-independently-wealthy peasants who actually work for one.
Triassic Sands
Perhaps, Time Warner Cable wouldn’t have objected to an employee performing CPR if that employee had first clocked out.
Ms. Nelson’s supervisor probably couldn’t perform CPR because he/she was too busy clocking-out Ms. Nelson. After all, it would be a grave economic injustice if Nelson were paid for time during which she were dying, rather than carrying out the work she had been hired to do. The real victim here is Time Warner Cable.
A Corporate Good Samaritan is not the person who performs CPR on a gravely ill employee, but rather that employee who makes sure that no one is getting a free ride at the expense of the all-but-defenseless corporation.
And to think, Republicans consider our current status as “socialistic.” Imagine what real Randian free enterprise would look like. Oh, right, we’ve already seen that — products from economic powerhouses like Apple and Nike are routinely produced in sweat-shops around the world. Even so, Steve Jobs apparently felt there are too many regulations hostile to our fellow corporate human beings. If only we could get rid of all regulations on businesses, they’d step up and do the right thing. Goods and services would be practically free, the environment would be perfectly protected, and employee pay and vacation time would be much more generous than they are now.
scav
And exactly what possible value do they think their self-professed “thoughts” can possibly have to anyone let alone the family and friends of the employee they let die in a corner (and appropriately too!)? Lowest common denominator HR/PR bullshit. Unimaginative LCD HR/PR BS. I swear HR is the department painting happy faces on the guillotine and bringing pompoms to the apocalypse. It’s like finding the moral black hole in a larger black hole, that dept.
SiubhanDuinne
@Randiego: True enough. I actually watch CNN only when there’s a major breaking news story that nobody else is covering (I know that sounds slightly oxymoronic, but it’s been known to happen).
Too Many Jimpersons (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
This for me was what drove me over the edge. As appalling as the whole thing was (“God damn, it, get back to work! You want to open us up to a lawsuit? And what the hell, we don’t pay you people to sit around saving each others’ lives! Those subscriptions aren’t going to sell themselves, asshole. Jeez, these workers today…”), I could have maybe been willing to say, “All, right, some idiot fucked up badly, but maybe it was only that one idiot.” Maybe. Not likely, but maybe I might have bought that if the company had come out and showed the world that that isn’t how it does business and that this one guy (the boss) didn’t do his job right. But when they try to tell us that that was how anybody should have handled something like that, well, that’s when I want to see these people sued into the ground.
Also, it saddens me that a 67 year old woman had to be doing a job like this to get by, rather than having retired to do what she liked.
Southern Beale
LINKIE NO WORKIE
EIGRP
@Too Many Jimpersons (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.): Are you projecting? How do we know she _had_ to do this job? Maybe she liked it. (OK, that’s probably not true – it’s a call center.) But still… how do you know about her personal situation?
Eric
SiubhanDuinne
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik:
I didn’t see that. Was it mentioned in the vid clip? (Unfortunately, no Flash on iPad.) if that’s true, it makes the whole awful episode orders of magnitude worse.
Gravenstone
@freelancer:
The key here is that if you have CPR training, you should have been informed that you DO NOT STOP, unless you are 1) relieved by someone of equal or greater training (eg. the first responders arriving and taking charge of the situation, or 2) you become physically exhausted and unable to continue. By stopping prematurely, you actually do open yourself to potential legal action because you failed to properly perform the procedure to the accepted standard (assuming that was the level of your training).
Yutsano
@Too Many Jimpersons (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.):
Your point is valid, but we really don’t know her exact reasons for still working after retirement age. My grandfather worked right up until he was 70 years old, mostly because he wanted to. He only retired when his eyesight started failing.
@EIGRP: Or what you said.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Of course they did. The supervisor saw two employees being unproductive and made the smart move to put one back to work. I’m sure the dead employee will be written up for poor performance.
At least they aren’t a burden on the company or their medical provider.
@Mark B.:
Hmmm… No defib nearby…
I need an extension cord, wire cutters and a hot outlet, stat! What, none available?! Then get me a car battery, a transformer and some jumper cables!
maya
To me, this sad story is really about managerial incompetence. We don’t know what medical emergency policy is at TWC at this point and it’s not good to jump to conclusions just to blame the company itself, as if the board room guys made what happened an actual policy. I seriously doubt that.
If they are guilty of anything it’s more likely in the area of management training, or lack thereof. It’s in the same vein as that BoA manager who called the cops on the customers that wanted to close their account in NYC. A well-trained and savvy manager would have known automatically what procedures to follow. These managers panicked and made bad decisions on their own. They are not well trained. American private enterprise isn’t as structurally competent as we are automatically supposed to believe whenever the privatization-will-cure-everything meme is trotted out. Here is just another reason why it isn’t.
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@SiubhanDuinne:
Yep, mentioned in the video. The person with the keys to the room just….happened…to have stepped out, it notes.
@maya:
It may have been originally managerial incompetence, but TWC’s statement on the manner has CYOA all over it. They don’t want to punish a manager for being lethally negligent at best, and coldly heartless at worst, because it would dent their bottom line. So…’WE DID THE BEST WE CAN, WE HAD TO LEAVE THE POOR SAP DYING UNTIL THE EMTS ARRIVED, NOT OUR PROTOCOL TO STEP ON THEIR TOES, LOLOLOLOLOL!’
scav
Best healthcare system in the world, no? but we can’t stop the treadmill long enough to let the cogs have any edge of it.
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@scav:
Best healthcare in the world, but only if you can pay for it. If you can’t, well, better start shakin’ up that ‘Tussin bottle.
maya
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik: I don’t doubt at all that the lawyering up puts them in the position of having to back their manager’s actions. Admitting and dealing with her incompentance would probably be an admission of legal wrongdoing by them. She is, afterall, management. Usual tactics of delay, but again, I doubt that they have a let them die policy on the books.
karen marie
@maya:
That is the fault of the assholes in the boardroom and, QED, they are directly responsible for the stupid decisions the managers make.
Jennyjinx
What about the person who stopped administering the CPR at the order of an asshole? I understand that everyone that works in a call center does so out of need, not want, but, where’s the line? “But, boss, she’s dying! But, um, yeah. Sure. Back to work.”
I couldn’t walk away like that. I couldn’t just nod my head, grumble and go back to the phone. Honestly, I don’t understand how someone could stop potentially life saving measures just because someone told them to get back on the phones. That blows my mind. That person could’ve just pretended s/he didn’t hear the boss and went about CPR until medics arrived.
I expect that kind of behavior from corporations, of course. They don’t give a fuck about the bodies that are on those phones. They just care about their metrics. Someone was going to be pissed because they were on hold 5 more minutes than usual. Probably someone with a twitter following and gods know that’s so much more important that a life. I get that.
I don’t get how anyone can just get up and leave someone to die after they’ve already begun trying to save their life. Damn, you’ve got to draw the line somewhere.
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@Jennyjinx:
When you force people to compete for scraps just to survive, and then dangle threat of losing even that little bit of security because you want to do a good deed, you have a lot of incentive to shut your heart off.
TheOtherWA
I sure hope TWC didn’t have a life insurance policy on Julia Nelson, payable to TWC. I think most states cracked down on that, but it’s doubtful all of them did.
Mark B.
@Jennyjinx: Have you ever worked at a call center? I’m reminded of a scene in the novel ‘Robopocalypse’ where an escaping woman makes it into a factory controlled by the robots. The assembly line workers keep to their jobs because they know if they help, they’ll be the next to be taken out. A call center isn’t quite as bad as that, but it’s close. Yeah, the rational decision would be to say ‘fuck this job, I’m going to help this woman.’ But when your manager is yelling at you, it’s hard to think rationally, especially when you’re scared of losing your job.
Comrade Dread
Personally, I’m surprised they didn’t have a temp waiting in the wings running over to fill the poor deceased woman’s desk before she was even cold.
Jennyjinx
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik:
I see the incentive to look away as far as bills go. I get that. I don’t see how this person can live with the knowledge that walking away could have hastened this woman’s death. Oh, I know the rationale is “Well, she probably would’ve died anyway” but that’s heartless shit right there. She wasn’t a dog that was hit and left to die on the side of the road. She was a human being and, really, I think the person who walked away probably would’ve had a good case against TWC if they’d have been fired for continuing CPR.
The story would’ve been the same, except the woman may have lived and the CSR wouldn’t have to live with being a coward who contributed to her death. In fact, the CSR would’ve been hailed a hero for telling the boss to fuck off.
Mark B.
@Jennyjinx: I don’t think it’s fair to blame the person who tried to help. She didn’t choose to walk away. You might make the case that she shouldn’t have knuckled under to the pressure to leave, but you don’t know how hard it would have been to resist. She is in no way responsible for the horrible actions of her supervisor or the organization which forced her to stop giving aid.
rikyrah
lowdown, no-good muthafuckas.
plain and simple.
Jennyjinx
@Mark B.:
Yeah, hence the reference to metrics. I’ve actually never worked a job where my position couldn’t be filled by the next body in the door. There’s still a line. Ignoring your boss sexually harassing the woman or adding extra hours to his time card– meh. That’s keeping your nose down and minding your own business to keep your job. This is on a whole other level. This was someone who was actually working to save a life and followed an order to basically let her die.
I couldn’t do it. I wouldn’t be able to live with myself knowing that I could’ve kept kept her alive. But I’m also the person who will stop to help that dog on the side of the road or intervene when a child is choking and his mother doesn’t know what to do. I’m not the one to wait to see if someone else is going to do something. Mostly because I have a heart and it’d be too painful for me to ignore someone in need.
Jennyjinx
@Mark B.:
No she’s not responsible for the corporate policy or the shithead motherfucker who was upholding that policy. You’re right. But sometimes the lowly peons are in a position to affect positive and great change in that policy as well as the lives of the people around them. Sometimes it’s just good human policy to tell the boss to take a flying leap because that woman on the floor is loved by someone and she deserved someone to step up and do what was right.
But, again, that’s just me. In the end, I’ve never made the decision to let someone die to keep my position within a company so I can’t say how any of those involved are sleeping tonight. It’s just my opinion and doesn’t mean much beyond that.
Mark B.
@Jennyjinx: You couldn’t do it, but I’ll guess you’ve never been in a situation where if you miss a paycheck, your kids don’t eat. I don’t think you know how you’ll act in that kind of situation until you encounter it. Those who protest loudest that they will stand up to injustice are often the ones who quickly knuckle under when confronted unexpectedly with a horrible situation. I think your implication that the woman was heartless isn’t really fair.
Quaker in a Basement
Now see? Right here is where I wish real life was more like TV, because this is where a hardass DA like Jack on Law and Order would give his assistant a speech on the meaning of “depraved indifference” and then nail the lot of ’em for manslaughter.
magurakurin
@Mark B.: In fact, she did choose to walk away. Even if the manager had held a gun to her head and told her to stop, it would still have been a choice. If the manager had asked security to pull her off, kicking and screaming, that would not have been a choice. I’m not condemning the women but rather a culture and a society that produced such a situation and led what is probably a very good and decent human being to make such a fucked up choice. The United States is truly a fucked country. And I am willing to bet the women who listened to the manager feels like shit warmed over right now. I feel bad for her. The manager, not so much. If we are going to head back into the jungle, I volunteer to cut off his head and shit into his skull.
JR
In my book the manager committed murder the second they opened their mouth to stop live-saving work.
Where I worked HR held classes in CPR, installed Defib machines on each floor and held training on them, got the fire dept to have fire extinguisher training out in the parking lot, gave flu shots out, and etc.
Now, THATS what HR is supposed to do.
Time-Warner, not so much. Glad I can boycott them for the rest of their lives without suffering, but I’d do it if it cost me.
Slime. Needs to be indictments of the manager who issued the order, aiding and abetting against other managers who defended the first manager because it is inhuman and dispicable to do what was done and to support what was done.
The poor victim’s family should own Time-Warner!
Mark B.
@magurakurin: I’m willing to forgive someone for making a poor choice when they are under extreme duress. Because a choice made under duress in the heat of the moment is not really a free choice. But by shifting the focus to the woman who tried to help, we’re distracting from the real problem, IMO. I would like to say that I would have stood up and tried to be a hero in that kind of situation, and I truly believe I would. But, not having been in that kind of situation, I can’t say for sure how I’d act.
About the only point of reference I have was when I was working retail and there was a car accident in front of where I worked. I left my post and rendered first aid. I could have been fired for that, but there was no more senior manager on site, so I didn’t care. But the place I worked was a lot less opressive than a call center and this was many years ago. YMMV.
Jeff Fecke
@Jennyjinx:
You don’t know that you couldn’t do it. You haven’t been in the situation; you can say all you want that you’d stand up to your supervisor and by-God do the right thing, but you don’t know. Honestly, you’re like the guy who says that if the terrorists attack, he’ll be the one charging the guy with the gun and rescuing the girl and saving the day, and certainly not one of the poor saps cowering in the corner. Maybe so, but until you’ve been there, you don’t know, and you’ve no right to criticize someone who was forced to choose between continuing CPR and doing her job.
Criticizing the guy who’s doing nothing and actively preventing someone else is fine, of course, because that goes beyond cowardice to actual evil.
BigSouthern
@Jennyjinx
Before you start talking about how you know exactly what you would and would not do in the face of this or that authority figure, you should check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
People are as they are, and I’m certain it wasn’t your intention to bad mouth the employee who stopped giving CPR, but this person’s only failing was responding to an extreme situation in an all too human fashion.
Isidor
Hard not to think about the case of the little girl in China who was run over and ignored by many passersby — possibly due to fear of negative consequences if they became involved.
Carl Nyberg
Had the individual been the CEO of Time Warner, do you think CPR would have been administered until EMS arrived?
El Cid
DEATH PANEL?!
Mayken
@Isidor: Funny I was about to post this on a list that’s been talking about that incident since it happened…
Isidor
@Mayken: I’m curious, what’s your sense of the discussion? Is there a general consensus?
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@bystander: Regarding CPR:
This is almost word-for-word what the CPR trainer at my company told us. Basically: “Liability? What liability? The patient is already dead!”
My company has a lot of people doing field work and we’re self insured, so we take safety very seriously. Accidents hit the bottom line. Free First Aid and CPR training every year, defibrillators on every floor. After hearing this story, I’m glad some our work in unsafe environments has driven the corporate culture this way.
JasonF
@Mark B.:
I feel a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of hipsters suddenly cried out in terror.
magurakurin
@Mark B.: I’m not sure I’m shifting the focus. She did make a choice, but I thought I was clear that it was shitty social and cultural situations that forced her into it. I also said I felt bad for her. And, really, as to the manager, what part of “cut off his head and shit in his skull,” exactly wasn’t clear? We are pretty much on the same side here.
BattleCat
@magurakurin: BattleCat doesn’t think you two are the on same side at all.
BattleCat thinks that one of you is arguing that the ultimate choice to walk away was left with the first responder, while the other is arguing that the ultimate choice to walk away was left with the authoritarian manager.
Mayken
@Isidor: We’re a little unique since it’s a list related to adoption from china so more people are a little more culturally aware. The understanding is that there was an intersection of by-stander effect and some seriously screwy laws at play here (China has no good Samaritan laws and in fact someone who helps in a situation like this might actually be convicted of a crime.)
But I was surprised at how many people – some of them parents of children from china – who thought this was a reflection of Chinese “heartlessness” and/or due to the fact the child was a girl. That’s why I planned to post this, because heartlessness is unfortunately a universal thing.
Isidor
@Mayken: Interesting to hear some think things would be otherwise if the child were a boy. I’d be surprised if that were the case and I don’t see any evidence that any of the passersby even knew the sex of the child.
If you do share the link, feel free to drop me a note about any reaction.
harlana
why was the deceased woman slumped at her desk if she had been receiving CPR before? wouldn’t she have been on the floor?
harlana
@Isidor: OMG WHAT IS FUCKING WRONG WITH PEOPLE??? That poor little girl was smashed how could you possibly do anything to make her situation worse by trying to help her?! Not that that should make any difference, of course. As bad as the lack of action is the body language of the people walking by who looked at her like she was a bug or something. As if that weren’t enough, ANOTHER truck comes along and, rather than drive around her a the very least, it rolls right over her again, as if the make sure she dies. WTF??
SICK & BARBARIC! They must have some fucked-up laws.
Jason
I’ve worked in a call center doing CATI. I can tell you that it’s one of the most depressing, repetitive, exploitative jobs there is, and the supervisors are basically forced into adopting the mentality of slave overseers. I can readily believe a supervisor losing his bearings this badly.
joeshabadoo
ABL, you have to put something worse than FAIL! on this picture. These sociopaths shouldn’t have a joking meme attached to what they did.
Thanks for calling attention to something so horrifying. We’ve got to get these companies under control.
Jado
Corporations are people. Send this corporation to “jail” – redesignate it as a non-profit for the duration of the jail sentence, and all of the workers get COLA increases only. Any top management that leaves runs the risk of separate criminal investigation into their part of the crime. All profits go to charity, preferably something associated with the crime (in this case, the American Heart Foundation, maybe?).
After the sentence, the corporation can re-enter civilized society, and try to rehabilitate itself.
sonofdunnco
If you had worked in shops and factories like I have since 1968 you would have known that this sort of thing is common. Leave the dead and dying where they fall and going straight back to work is a standard operating procedure. I’m surprised at the shock that this post has created. This sort of thing has been going on for years and was going on in the sorts of places that my father and his brothers worked when they were still in the work force. We have been cogs in a machine for a very long time. I’m surprised that it wasn’t common knowledge.
c u n d gulag
Ah, it’s ‘heart’warming to see that nothing’s changed at the company I used to work for.
You can’t let anything affect productivity!
PaulW
Corporations basically working us to death. If we can find work.
Isidor
@harlana: The fear was not of hurting her further (though, you do need to be careful about moving certain types of accident victims). The post I referenced lays out the possibilities better than I can here, and as Mayken points out (and as does the post) people can be heartless in other countries too. I should also note that many Chinese are horrified by what occurred, even if they’re not surprised it happened.
Especially in a country where most people have no voice in their government, it makes sense to separate the “people” from the “government”. In this case, on top of general human psychology, laws and policies of the government (past and present) may have played a large role in causing people to behave the way they did. It’s a complex situation…
Mayken
@Isidor: Yeah I think there is little doubt the child’s sex wasn’t the deciding factor. I understand that in addition to the potential for being prosecuted for stopping to help, the original driver probably drove over her twice because it costs a driver less if the person in an accident dies than if they live and recieve medical care. It’s a pretty screwed up system.
On the other hand this has apparently quite shocked the Chinese people ( to put it mildly) and the provincial government has already made a new law staring there would actually be a reward for people who help in these situations now. So that is a positive change from a horrible situation.
Mayken
@harlana: It’s hard to under stand these things but the it is actually a combination of the well known by-stander effect (think of the woman who died in a Brooklyn waiting room after being ignnored by everyone in there literally for hours even bring stepped over by fellow patients and at least one security guard! Or the little boy beat to death by his father in CA while a crowd including a fire chief did nothing!) coupled with some really screwed up laws. The courts have literally proscecuted good Samaritans for actually causing the injury of the person they stopped to help! And as I already mentioned, the fines for killing someone with a car are less than for injuring them!
However as I also point out this case has shocked the Chinese people deeply and there has already been a change inlaws in the province where this happened. Something I know we won’t see here in the US because our corporate masters might be inconvenienced or have their profits touched by being required to save the lives of their wage slaves.
Mayken
@Isidor: Thanks well put!
harlana
@Isidor: i realize what you’re saying, but it’s still shocking nonetheless; where is compassion? no compassion in the body language whatsoever which is disturbing, I don’t really care where this happened in the world, it’s shocking and barbaric to not even have the ability to express compassion – anybody this desensitized, you would assume, would be a concentration camp victim, not an ordinary person walking the streets – so what traumatic events caused these people to be so desensitized then, i wonder.
Isidor
@harlana:
“anybody this desensitized, you would assume, would be a concentration camp victim, not an ordinary person walking the streets”
To followup on that example, many of the ordinary people on the street in WWII Germany were the ones that could be categorized as the most “desensitized”. How many “ordinary” people did nothing despite being aware that something deeply wrong was occurring? I think one of the lessons of the Holocaust was that seemingly normal and even well-educated people can do some shocking things.
I understand that the video was shocking. I was shocked as well. Humanity can do that to you sometimes.
As I shared in a later post, humanity has its better sides as well.
John M. Burt
@freelancer: “If TW asked the employee to refrain because they had other individuals designated to be first responders, that would be one thing.”
No, it wouldn’t, actually. The rule is that whoever is first on the scene should begin CPR and should not stop until relieved by better-trained people.
I would not respond to an order to stop CPR except from an EMT or a doctor.
Mayken
@harlana: As I pointed out it’s a well known psychological phenomenon called by-stander effect. Google it you’ll be appalled anew. People seem to react without conpassion or understanding – even completely ignoring someone dying in front of their faces. EG the well-known case of the woman who collapsed and died in a Brooklyn hospital waiting room after laying there for hours. The more people around the less likely people are to help.
The fact is that people who step into help are actually the rare ones. Which makes it double aweful the TWC manager stopped the employee from helping her coworker.
The Other Chuck
The woman who died at her desk was 67 years old. This is the retirement plan they have for us.
NCSteve
@Roger Moore: No committee of lawyers would ever agree that it’s cheaper to let employees die because any committee of lawyers would know that when Ford decided it was cheaper to pay wrongful death claims than fix the Pinto gas tank, Ford got hammered for it.
On the other hand, that was back before our Galtian Overlords managed to largely abolish punitive damages . . .
Singular
@Mark B.:
In turn, you imply that Jenny is just full of crap and she would “knuckle under” when in that situation. When you don’t really have a clue how she feels, or would act, and should probably take her at face value, because she makes a valid point.
Anyone who would let someone die (AFTER commencing CPR) rather than RISK their job, well that’s strange at least. Nobody is trying to pin the blame for this on the first responder, but come on…
harlana
this just makes me want to learn more about China’s working conditions and laws regarding employees & accidents – it really looks like the whole idea here is “ignore it and it didn’t happen” – the second truck rolling over the little girl as if she weren’t there – it makes me wonder if they are terrified to even acknowledge such a horrific accident. i’m REALLY not sure about the first truck backing up over her after running over her the first time – it’s as if the driver were determined to make sure she was dead. is there some advantage to that? kill the only witness, maybe? 2nd driver: I’ll make sure she’s dead if she isn’t already?
there has to be a deeper explanation for something like this – i am aware similar incidents have happened in the US, I am aware of the Kitty Genovese incident and so forth
still, horrified, tho
harlana
@JasonF:
wow, that hasn’t happened in a few years, has it?
harlana
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik:
Seen and experienced it first hand. Bad managers can turn decent people into human sharks, pitted one against the other. Rather than managers, they should be called “destroyers” for the chaos they create and encourage. And, apparently, some people might die in the process.
Mark B.
@Singular: Actually, I don’t know Jenny, and wasn’t making any specific comment about her, but a general observation about people who claim that they would act bravely in a crisis. This observation may or may not apply to her. Your conclusions are not supported by what was said in the conversation.
Mnemosyne
@Jennyjinx:
So shouldn’t you also and equally be blaming the peons who didn’t get up from their desks to help? The ones who not only didn’t help, but didn’t argue with the manager when the manager sent the one helpful person back to her own desk?
Again, it’s very easy to talk about how you would be the one brave one in an office where the manager is telling you to get back to your desk and all of your co-workers are staring silently at you like you’re the one causing the problem by trying to help. Norma Rae only succeeded because her co-workers backed her up. Otherwise, she would’ve been just some asshole standing on her machine with a “Union” sign while everyone else ignored her and kept working.