Election results in Tunisia:
A moderate Islamic party appeared to emerge as the big winner in Tunisia on Monday as preliminary results leaked out in the voting for an assembly to draft a constitution and shape a new government in this small North African country, where a revolution in January inspired uprisings across the Arab world.
The party, Ennahda, won at least 30 percent of the votes cast on Sunday, and party officials told a news conference the party had come out ahead in nearly every voting district. Ali Laredi, a top official of the party, said it expected to receive possibly more than 50 percent when the final results are tallied.
Calling his party “the most modernist” Islamic political movement in the Arab world — meaning the most committed to principles of democracy and pluralism — Mr. Laredi predicted that it would now “lead the way” for others around the region.
Ennahda officials were already beginning discussions to form a unity government with the four or five other more liberal parties that were expected to get representation in the constituent assembly, which is to draft the constitution.
A lot of much smarter people have written about this, but with the new Democratic wave offering up “moderate” Islamist victories everywhere, the US position regarding Israel is becoming more and more untenable. If you’ll remember, the radicals currently running Israel have already alienated Turkey through repeated belligerence, and Turkey was the very model of a moderate Islamic sociey.
BGinCHI
We won’t know if this is bad news for al Qaeda until Bill Kristol weighs in and we know what not to think.
Also, countdown till Pat Buchanan waxes nostalgic over the good old days of Middle East Autocracy.
fasteddie9318
They’ve information animal, vegetable, and mineral…ety?
geg6
This is just simply wonderful news. Good on the Tunisians.
And you are right as hell regarding the whole Israel question. We should be telling them to shut the fuck up or we’re pulling every penny of the zillions we spend on aid for them. I used to be the biggest Israel supporter around, but the Occupation, Lebanon (especially 1982), and now the shit they’ve started with a truly great ally like Turkey has made me wash my hands of them. I couldn’t care less what happens to Israel anymore.
Culture of Truth
Somehow this is all either proof Obama is a secret anti-colonial Islamic socialist or a vindication of the invasion of Iraq.
fasteddie9318
Wait, they elected Muslims? See what happens when you let those creatures govern themselves? Why can’t they keep their religion out of their politics?
/religiousright
Corner Stone
Libya to adopt Sharia law, ends public showing of Gaddafi’s body
“Islamic sharia law will prevail in Libya and any existing laws that contradict this will be repealed, National Transitional Council leader Mustafa Abdel Jalil said on Monday.”
Zifnab
Wait, did you just say the Tunisian government was hijacked by a radical African branch of Al-Qaeda? Get Bill Kristol on the phone! Get Dick Cheney back in the war room! Get troops on the ground! Go! Go! Go!
If we don’t move, they’ll have nukes pointed at us by Friday.
Corner Stone
@Zifnab: “Get those [war] brokers back in here! Turn those machines back on!”
Culture of Truth
“Libyans are Muslims, but we are moderate Muslims,” Abdel Jalil said today, following his vow to scrap statutes that don’t conform to Islamic law. The changes would include the banning of interest on housing loans and the application of the Islamic legal code to marriage and divorce, he said.
Herman Cain was right!!
Ruckus
Ah, the conservative party line worldwide. Belligerence, arrogance and violence will always win power. Runs along with the idea that employees are just numbers to be moved around on a chessboard and discarded and shit upon whenever possible because they have no intrinsic value. Or that conservative ideals are not wrong, just not applied vigorously enough.
Sooner or later the peasants revolt, a mess ensues, history is jolted in a new direction.
Christian Sieber
Is what John wrote about Turkey really true? I was under the impression that Turkey was strictly secular thanks to the military being continuing stewards of Ataturk’s revolution, but that the current government was pretty religious and that a lot of (secular) people in Turkey didn’t like it for that reason.
That’s a lot different from it being a “moderate Islamic” state, at least in my head. Maybe I’m missing something though?
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
@Corner Stone:
Does the government know that if they adopt the U.S. Constitution, then their leaders would be able to simply declare anything legal? Seems like a more pragmatic way to govern, if I understand balloon-juice.com correctly.
.
.
Certified Mutant Enemy
Some intrepid reporter should as the current crop of GOP Presidential candidates what they think of the Tunisian election results…
General Stuck
Good for Tunisia and Libya. They now have the opportunity to govern themselves. That is all that is promised with liberation. The rest is up to them to use it wisely or not.
I have no idea what the Israel question has to do with this post, but that is why John Cole is a far read and wise successful blog operator. And I can barely type a coherent sentence with good speling. And that is on a good day.
Violet
@Corner Stone:
Heard a discussion on BBC about this, and also about the Tunisia results. A Libyan woman was defending the rights of Muslim men to have up to four wives under Sharia law. And the Tunisians were a little concerned about the effect of an Islamist government on their tourism industry.
geg6
@Christian Sieber:
You are right that Turkey is a secular state, but in my experience with people from Turkey, they tend to be moderates in religious affairs. They certainly aren’t radicals or strict in their interpretations of their religion anyway.
But that’s just from my own small circle of Turkish people who I’ve actually met and interacted with.
Culture of Truth
Not to be blunt, but are they going to sell us the oil or not?
Corner Stone
@Culture of Truth: I think you mean, “or else?”
SteveinSC
Well, this is good news for Tunisia. The proximity to Europe has to have some positive effect on these people, even given taht the French, Italians and Spaniards all did their best to bite off a piece for themselves. As far as Obama and NATO is concerned, haven’t the gop even heard that NATO is with us in Afghanistan? Our allies asked for our help, and barring troops on the ground, we could not retain what tattered honor we have and refuse them.
The Dangerman
Moderate Islamacists? Oh, dear, clearly a Caliphate in progress, thanks in no small part to our closet Muslim (and foreign born) President.
Edit: FYWP! I did the italics right, you bastard!
KG
@BGinCHI: we know exactly what Kristol is going to say… this is good news for al Qeada because now they’ll have a new base of operations because
those savages let Islamists take overelected a representative body that isn’t exactly like ours.Corner Stone
This thread is kind of like an early Halloween event. No title makes it look like the comments are all on an invisible ghostly thread.
Villago Delenda Est
@Christian Sieber:
The Turkish military feels it has a duty to protect Ataturk’s Revolution, and they will not hesitate to take out a civilian government that they think goes over the line.
Religious assholes need to watch their steps in the streets of Ankara and Istanbul.
Ruckus
@General Stuck:
It seems to me that Israel wants to be a more imperialist country than the US. They are using us to accomplish this while we are willing to be used for that purpose. It’s a fools errand for both sides but it looks like we may have adults in charge in the US and that the situation may change for the better.
The Populist
John, I agree but tell this to AIPAC. They will ruin any pol who dares side with Israel’s “enemies”.
The Dangerman
@Culture of Truth:
Holy shit, no usury (which the Bible explicitly condemns, too)? Obviously, they hate capitalism.
The Populist
@Ruckus: Ever do business with an Israeli company? I have…let’s just say the word BURN comes to mind when I look back on that.
I wish the peace movement in Israel would take over and force change. It will never happen as long as the likes of Netanyahu keep winning.
Sapheriel
did FYWP eat the post title?
The Populist
@geg6: I have done business with Turks. I find the city folks are the moderate ones. The people in the smaller, rural areas tend to be the equivalent of our tea party/hard right villagers.
The Populist
@geg6: I wish it were so but it will never happen with a congress run by the crazy right and a Senate bought and paid for by AIPAC (both sides of the aisle). This is the one area where Ron Paul nails his message 100%.
GregB
Can we drop some freedom bombs and turn the whole region into a parking lot and then open a lemonade stand?
Bill Kristol would approve.
Woodrowfan
Israel went insane during the 1st Intifada allowing their fear and hatred take over. I see them as being about 10 years ahead of the US politically. We’re heading in the same direction.
The Populist
@Christian Sieber: They elected a much more religious party a bunch of years ago. I believe it was both a response to the wars as well as Israel.
They are still pretty secular as far as Islamic countries go, but they have allowed religion into more aspects of governance over the years.
Roger Moore
We’ll see how moderate they are when the Constitution is written.
The post probably ought to have a title, BTW.
Dexter
Where did the post title go?
General Stuck
@Ruckus:
You know, I have a lot of problems with Israel’s tactics and brutal over reactions to the eternal belligerence of Hamas, but just don’t see the issue as imperialism, or anything other than a dispute over a small piece of land.
gocart mozart
WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE!
Ali Abdussalam Tarhouni is a Libyan economist serving as interim Prime Minister of Libya.
Born in Libya, Tarhouni studied economics at the University of Libya, until fleeing the country in 1973. He was stripped of citizenship, sentenced to death in absentia, and put on a government hit list in 1981.[2] After immigrating to the United States, Tarhouni continued his studies, earning a master’s degree (1978) and a Ph.D. (1983) from Michigan State University. Since 1985 he has been a Senior Lecturer in Business Economics at the University of Washington Michael G. Foster School of Business.[4]
Southern Beale
Tea Party withers in D.C. … (warning, it’s a Politico link …) .. .maybe because it was always astroturf? FAKE not real? Ya think?
The Populist
@Corner Stone: So? It is their right to have such laws if they so choose. We are not the boss of them.
Culture of Truth
I wonder if sharia law bans delivered pizza that tastes like cardboard.
gocart mozart
@Roger Moore:
Libyan interim Constitutional Declaration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_interim_Constitutional_Declaration
Roger Moore
@The Populist:
We tried to, but our legal department said no when they insisted the contract be governed by Israeli law and any disputes be settled in Israeli courts. We didn’t need their business enough to be worth the risk.
gocart mozart
@gocart mozart:
FYWP
BGinCHI
@gocart mozart: Oh my God!
He’s a Spartan!
This is worse than I thought.
Culture of Truth
Tarhouni continued his studies, earning a master’s degree (1978) and a Ph.D. (1983) from Michigan State University
WOLVERINES!!!!!!!!!!
Roger Moore
@gocart mozart:
This is about Tunisia, where they’ve just elected the people who are going to write their permanent Constitution. They’re supposed to be more liberal, but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. The same thing about the interim Constitution in Libya. It’s nice they have an interim Constitution, but wait until the permanent one is written before you get your hopes up too high. Hell, in any country with a new Constitution, you should probably wait a while to make sure they’re actually following the thing before getting too excited.
Southern Beale
@Roger Moore:
I had an Israeli boss once. Nice guy but extremely controlling. Tried to tell me which route to take to work in the morning (even though I was never, ever late so what the fuck business is it of his?). Also wanted me to wear nylons to work. This was back in the 80s when nylons were still more common, but it was also Southern California and trust me, no one wore nylons in Los Angeles. It’s too fucking hot.
Nutella
@Roger Moore:
Worth checking even in a country with an old constitution, even one dating as far back as 1787.
Corner Stone
@Southern Beale:
That does sound kind of hot.
Brachiator
@The Dangerman:
Wait a minute. The Bible hates capitalism? Somebody better let the Tea Party People know about this.
More seriously:
I have no idea what this means for Tunisia. Any conclusions about the significance of this for the United States or Israel seems a bit of a reach.
A BBC news story on the sense of hope and optimism, especially among people who had voted for the first time, or felt that their vote finally counted for something was heartening. I don’t know if it was an artifact of the editing, but many of those interviewed spoke as much about democracy as about the importance of the nation becoming a moderate Islamic state.
And I suppose that a test of any country is how minority political parties are treated, in this case, for example, the secular centre-left PDP party, which had been the main challenger before the election.
stibbert
kinda amazing, actually. Mohamed Bouazizi killed himself 10 months ago. people took notice, started pushing back, & toppled governments. i think of that young man often, i hope his soul rests easy.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
This post has no title, just words and a tune.
gocart mozart
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/africa/news/article_1661276.php/Prospective-new-Libyan-leadership-impressive-EU-envoy-says
To be fair, here is more info on Abdelhakim Belhadj (RE: last sentence in the article)
http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=1&id=26357
Culture of Truth
It is amazing. You can only push people so far.
Corner Stone
@gocart mozart:
Sold!
Mino
And in our own baby revolution a rubicon has been passed. State and local police declined to arrest OWS protesters in Albany last night. Cuomo just torpedoed his hopes for 2016, I hope sincerely.
David in NY
@Culture of Truth:
No, silly. A Spartan, as the prior comment notes, with consternation.
Martin
Clearly this positive result is due to ACORN ballot box stuffing. Did everyone show their government-issued photo ID?
Mustang Bobby
I work with a couple who are watching the results with great interest. He is Tunisian by birth (and a naturalized U.S. citizen), and he and his eldest daughter (born in America but considered a Tunisian citizen via the patriarchy) got to vote in the election through the Tunisian consul here in Miami. They proudly displayed their ink-stained fingers. Mom (Cuban by birth, converted to Islam) was ecstatic, and it was just a thrill to see them vote in the first-ever free election in that country.
BGinCHI
@Mino: Good. Let’s hope that solidarity spreads to Chi, where they have been steadily arresting people. Local NPR reported this morning that a couple of women arrested were nurses. Not sure why they singled them out, but it definitely gave the impression that they weren’t all DFHs.
Culture of Truth
@David in NY: I knew that! I’m trying to start a fight!!
kindness
That’s it John. I just heard you’ve been canceled from MC’ing the next AIPAC conference. I’m sure this has come as quite a blow. Please try to console yourself.
beltane
The usual suspects will not be satisfied until the Tunisians put a right-wing Christian government in power. Any other outcome makes Baby Jesus and Pam Geller sad.
Corner Stone
@Mino:
I think a much more powerful message would have been sent if the protestors had quietly filed out at 6pm and punched their timecards at the exit as they left.
I mean, they can always return quietly again tomorrow morning, amirite?
Davis X. Machina
@Mino: Cuomo was the darling of the real progressives just a few months ago – I even saw him being boomed as a primary challenger to Obama – on the strength of his support for marriage equality.
One problem with the American left is that there are so darn many of them…
Mino
@BGinCHI: I will say OWS is sure exposing the DINO’s in our party. And I am so proud of the police up there. They told the mayor/tool of Cuomo that they were the ones who understood policing, not the politicians. Heh.
gocart mozart
@Roger Moore:
I don’t have my hopes “too high” and yes the proof is in the eating. So far, I am cautiously optimistic.
I don’t think we should freak out about the word “sharia”. The article linked above is from the “Indian Times” and references only divorce law. A Muslim using the phrase “sharia law” is no different than an American conservative christian claiming that our constitution is based on the bible (aside from the fact that the latter is lying and the interim Libyan constitution just gives lip service to “Holy Book” law.) As far as specifically protecting equality, democracy and minority rights, I think it does a good job. Of course, lets see what the permanent constitution says and how it is enforced.
For those who say “We don’t know anything about THEM!”, I spent 5 minutes on Google and found a ton of information. If you don’t know, you don’t care to know.
Mino
@Davis X. Machina: Really? Well, as I said, OWS is exposing a lot of underwear.
Roger Moore
@beltane:
Ah, the delicious taste of Baby Jesus tears.
Mino
@Corner Stone: Paid protestors???? What a thought.
Samara Morgan
al-Nahda is the name of the party, meaning “awakening”. There have been a lot of MENA movements called that. May i remind y’all that the “moderate” AKP party tries every two years to wedge the shariah compliance statement into the turkish constitution.
so Cole, would you describe the Muslim Brotherhood as “moderate”?
Roger Moore
@gocart mozart:
I’d argue that you don’t know as much about them as you think you do. Maybe we can find out a lot about the leadership, but understanding the government will require knowing something about the people and what they want. As @Mino points out, OWS is showing just how little we know about politics in the USA. Just think of how much less we know about Tunisia.
Samara Morgan
@Christian Sieber: the AKP is the islamist party and the leader Erdogan is the guy currently making Beeg Truble for Moose (America) and Squirrel (Israel).
One thing he is doing is campaigning for Palestinian statehood, and another thing he does every two years is to lead the effort to put shariah compliance back into the turkish constitution.
Turkey was a dictatorship under Ataturk, and then ruled by a military junta.
It is evolving from a secular Kemalist autocracy to an Islamic Republic like Iraq and Iran.
gocart mozart
@Samara Morgan:
The flaw of democracy is that sometimes religious extremists get elected. Fortunately, we don’t have to worry about that in this in America.
handsmile
@BGinCHI: (#59)
This link to a press release issued by National Nurses United, “Nurses Condemn Chicago Mayor Emmanuel for Arrest of Nurses, Medical Volunteers at Occupy Chicago,” will provide more (and more troubling) information on the incident you cited:
http://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/entry/nurses-condemn-chicago-mayor-emanuel-for-arrest-of-nurses-medical-voluntee/
With the city scheduled to host G-8 and NATO leaders next May, it seems Rahm Emmanuel wants to demonstrate that Chicago police have not repudiated their notoriously brutal past. Somewhere in hell, Richard Daley smiles.
Samara Morgan
@Violet:
panty-sniffer. its none of Americans business.
We just spent 10 years and 14.3 trillion dollars trying to impose our cultural morality on Iraq and A-stan.
we failed.
epically.
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart: you forgot your sarc tag, right?
Bush was a fucking WEC retard that believed he was fighting Gog and Magog to save Israel.
BGinCHI
@handsmile: Thanks for that!
I don’t think Rahm is going to come out of this looking very good at all. His authoritarian streak is showing.
Let’s hope the cops can think for themselves.
Brachiator
@beltane:
The “usual suspects” typically are happy to settle for pro Western authoritarian regimes. Religious affiliation, not very important.
Is there ever going to be a foreign policy debate for the GOP dopes? Or did it already happen? It would be really interesting to get their perspective on Tunisia, Syria, Libya, etc.
@gocart mozart:
I am not sure that this is the same thing. But even here, conservatives making claims about the linkage between the Constitution and the Bible are historically incorrect, and typically want something obnoxiously oppressive with respect to government, and especially Supreme Court appointments and decisions.
Samara Morgan
again, anyone.
would you describe the Muslim Brotherhood as a “moderate” islamist party?
i bet the egyptian copts wouldn’t.
:)
burnspbesq
@The Dangerman:
There are ways, most of which involve exotic hybrid securities that give off what is economically equivalent to interest but can be called something else with plausible deniability. One of the few growth practice areas in major US and British law firms these days is “Islamic finance.”
gocart mozart
@Samara Morgan:
No. What I was implying was that the Republican Party is controlled by the global atheist conspiracy.
gocart mozart
Fuck the police!
wrb
So is Tunch in hiding?
Monaco?
NobodySpecial
Funny anyone thinks this matters. If it’s too liberal, they’ll be at civil war days after it’s given to the world. If it’s not liberal enough, same thing.
Samara Morgan
@Brachiator:
you are correct in saying this is a false statement.
islamic law is the only law in many majority muslim states.
shariah is islamic jurisprudence, derived strictly from quranic text.
the lawyers ARE the clergy, and the clergy ARE the lawyers.
for example, in KSA, the injunction against proselytizing results in jailtime for religious services un-sanctioned by the Saud government.
In Indonesia there are anti-blasphemy laws.
al-Islam is vastly different from xianity.
gocart is making a common westerner mistake.
Samara Morgan
@Brachiator: now that might be true of muslim-AMERICANS.
shariah law in america is analogous to observant orthodox jews that practice judaic law….muslim americans and jewish americans can only practice the laws of their respective faiths as long as there is no conflict with the secular laws of the US.
dietary practices are a good example…like keeping halal and kosher slaughter laws.
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart: oh…the people that worship Mammon?
gocart mozart
@Samara Morgan:
“Sharia” is just a word that can mean a lot of things from stoning adulterers to basically nothing, sort of like Booga! Booga! “madrassa” which just means “school”. Actions speak louder than words.
kindness
@Samara Morgan: What is your point? Do you even have a point? Look at our political parties. One of them want’s to establish Evangelical Christianity as our law.
No mirrors in your town I guess.
SiubhanDuinne
@Southern Beale:
I flew to Israel on El Al back in 1980, and still have to laugh remembering the flight attendant asking me what I wanted to drink. “Coffee,” I said. “You shouldn’t drink coffee,” said she. “You’ll drink a nice glass tea, it’s better for you.”
KG
@kindness: mirrors are the work of the devil, bending light to and fro as they do… unnatural abominations! they must be destroyed.
El Cid
Statement from the directorate of Ennahda (the French spelling of An-Nahda, since Al- becomes An- before the “N”) upon the conceded victory:
Roughly,
arguingwithsignposts
@kindness: The little dead girl is just late for her daily “juicetard cudlip glibertarian WEC julian MENA game theoretical JAFI panty-sniffing COIN muftah” lap.
handsmile
For those with a more serious interest in the Tunisian election, here is the Al-Jazeera link, “Al-Nahda claims claims victory in Tunisia poll”:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/10/20111024152639624382.html
At its website, an opinion article by Larbi Sadiki, “The real significance of Tunisia’s elections” provides invaluable context.
As one would expect, Juan Cole’s blog, Informed Comment, offers a fine summary of the election. Just think of it: a voluntary 80-90% turnout by the eligible Tunisian electorate!
For reliable and well-sourced information on the Middle East, I would think that by now the New York Times would not be anyone’s choice.
Brachiator
@Samara Morgan:
I see your point. But it goes more than imposing dietary laws. The ultra-orthodox may obey religious laws relating to divorce, and rely on religious authorities in other areas.
However, in the US, even despite the bleatings of Christianists, the supposed distinction of religious and secular laws is false.
Per the Constitution, itself
There is no possibility of any religious based law standing beside or over the Constitution.
@gocart mozart:
Basing a government or a nation’s constitution on Sharia law can mean something very specific. And it remains to be seen what Tunisia’s new constitution looks like or how they organize their new government. There is no point in fear mongering, nor is there any point in speculating about what the new government may look like or how they might interpret their laws.
gocart mozart
@El Cid:
“Tunisian Islamists willing to ally with the left”
Oh Oh, now they are gonna force everyone to get gay abortions and then stone them to death!
Cain
I can sort of understand why they are using Sharia law. It’s sort of easier to use an existing set of laws based on your culture than to take some western one and try to make it conform to people’s expectation. You can’t just throw out centuries of cultural heritage and just adopt a western one.
As long as it is a democracy and that laws in the country can change to benefit society then I see issue with what is going on.
El Cid
@gocart mozart: Now they’ll be forcing people to get stoned to a deadly degree!
NobodySpecial
@El Cid: Everybody must get stoned.
gocart mozart
Everybody must get stoned.
http://www.google.com/ig#m_1
gocart mozart
@NobodySpecial:
You Bastard!
numbskull
@General Stuck: Wha???
Isn’t imperialism the taking of land and other properties? Isn’t that the beginning, middle, and end of all that is Israel? The Palestinian Jews sure as shit didn’t want their “brethren” from eastern and central Europe doing what they’ve done ere that many decades ago.
Anoniminous
I personally don’t give a shit which Invisible Friend, out of the thousands to chose from, anybody wants to “Play Religion” with. No skin, as they say, off my nose.
I do think it’s rather obnoxious for Christian Invisible Friend Adherents to claim Islamic Invisible Friend Adherents are, somehow, more violent than they are. As far as total body count per religion goes, Christianity wins, hands down. And not only that, during the First Crusade part of the glorious Christian Army marched into a Muslim town, slaughtered every man, woman, and child, and then ate them.
Granted the Christians were looking for a nosh.
But.
Still.
Islam is “the religion” of the Arab just as Christianity is “the religion” of the US. Most, if not all, political parties will be “Islamic” for exactly the same reason US political parties are “Christian:” it’s an integral aspect of the culture.
So, until Mr. Kirkpatrick starts using the adjectives “extremist,” “moderate,” & etc. in front of US political parties I’m afraid he will be found in my ‘Ignorant Shit-for-Brains Fucktard’ file.
numbskull
@The Populist: Yep. Once. Never again. It’s just not worth the headaches and ulcers.
General Stuck
@numbskull:
No.
Chris
@geg6:
Hear, hear. I mean… scuse me but what the fuck? Do they expect us to keep bankrolling their economy and their military and their foreign policy from now until the end of time because God forbid they get along with their neighbors or give all their people full voting rights?
Fuck that shit. As far as I’m concerned, they’re the Rhodesia or French Algeria of their day. Yes, it’s regrettable that they might fall without foreign support. Maybe next time they’ll think about that before moving into someone else’s land and spending the next half-century treating the locals like animals.
Ed Marshall
The future of the middle east is a big smoking crater. Throw 36°30’33.99″N, 40°46’34.75″E into google maps. That location is going to bombed by the Israelis in the near future. It’s probably (my guess is 75% sure, the Israelis believe it’s 99%) full of centrifuges spinning gaseous U-235 into U-238. Syria is doing this because it’s also likely that Iran will test a bomb soon.
When they do this, Turkey is set for materials and will test their own bomb with a week or two. Saudi Arabia and Egypt will follow soon, probably less than a month. Syria will not accept being the odd-man out of the new middle east nuclear club.
The existing members of the nuclear club are almost killing each other every couple years. The U.S. and Russia (not the Soviet Union), have some technical problem that leads to some sort of false positive on their threat boards that sets everyone’s hair on fair and scrambles the bombers, puts the keys into place in the silos and starts prepping the boomers every four years or so. I’ve been told by people who would know, that is nothing compared to what happens in the Indian and Pakistani version of the nuclear security venue.
Now add in a middle east region with four or five new nuclear powers that all hate and mistrust each other. I hope this can all be unwound, but if it isn’t what I start hoping is that the firestorm can be contained to that region . Once nuclear weapons start going off, there is a representation in all the rest of the nuclear powers of game theorist specialists in nuclear weapons who have an extremely different calculus for who wins a nuclear war than any normal human being: He who preserves a second strike capability wins. There will be a temptation even within the P-5 to surgical strike each other, after all, you know the other guy is thinking the same thing.
Chris
@The Populist:
For whatever reason, that seems to be the standard all over the world.
@Mino:
FAN TASTIC. I thoroughly approve this!
Ed Marshall
I think I might have typed something that actually triggered some “call homeland security” sort of filter. It sure as hell didn’t have the usual dick pill reference in it.
Samara Morgan
@Chris:
except they are MUSLIMS. Iraq– 97% muslim.
A-stan 99% muslim.
Libya 96%.
Egypt 90%.
Turkey 98%.
Tunisia 99%.
KSA 100% (cant be a citizen unless you’re muslim.)
WECs make up 30% of america. christians 70%.
notice a difference?
Samara Morgan
@Brachiator:
besides it aint our bidness.
look what our meddlesome panty-sniffing has brought us in Iraq. 4.5 million muslim orphans the undying enmity of dar ul islam.
@Cain:
besides which, shariah law is incompatible with missionary democracy with freedom of speech.
its in the Generous Quran.
:)
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart: shariah is islamic jurisprudence….ie, the message of the Noble Quran made into law.
its as if the words in the bible became law…like the ten commandments for example.
imagine if thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife was a LAW.
remember, the church IS the state in islamic nations.
Samara Morgan
@arguingwithsignposts: will you answer my question?
can the MB be considered a “moderate” islamic party?
Cole said it was a trend lol.
Samara Morgan
Demographics is destiny, right?
you are just as butthurt as the teatards over the brutal rejection of Our Glorious Judeoxian Missionary Democracy….trying to look for some lemonade among the lemons LOL!
hahahaha
Amir Khalid
I hesitate to enter this thread, knowing that m_c is about and just dying to bait the House Muslim.
Ah, what the heck.
I see nothing here but good news for Tunisians. m_c’s claims notwithstanding, Shariah is not the same all over the world. (The Wikipedia article is a good starting place if you want to learn more.) It is, as noted by non-Muslims here more knowledgeable about Islam than m_c, what the scholars and lawmakers make of it. Not every country that has it is going to turn into Saudi Arabia, Gott sei dank.
Tunisia in particular already has laws mandating gender equality and respect for religious minorities’ rights, and from what I know those laws are not in any jeopardy from the new management. That is the best possible news.
Ed Marshall
@Amir Khalid:
I’m sorry, you do realize she thinks *she* is the House Muslim? She learned Islam from reading AQ websites, and thinks that ideology is her adopted religion. I tried to get her to go to a mosque once upon a time, talk to an imam (any imam) and it didn’t work. It’s embarrassing, and I’m very sorry.
magurakurin
@kindness: she doesn’t have a point. She isn’t allowed sharp objects where she lives.
THE
My main concern about Sharia is that even under the best of terms Sharia only offers real protection to “people of the book”.
As a fully non-religious, secular person, I am not in any sense a “person of the book”. So my understanding is that there would be little protection under Sharia for someone like me.
What changes occur to the legal protections for minority beliefs in Tunisia, remains to be seen under the new constitution and government.
Personally I would rather live under an enlightened secular dictatorship, rather than a theocratic democracy of any kind. So for instance I would prefer living in modern China to modern Iran.
Edit: Secularism is more important to me personally than democracy
Amir Khalid
@Ed Marshall:
She does indeed hold herself to be the most Muslimestest commenter here, agreed. “House Muslim”, in this context, is a sarcastic epithet she applies to me, along with “maftoon”.
The advice you gave her was quite sensible, especially since she’s a self-declared Muslim who has never actually lived among the ummah and learned how to live the faith. But she doesn’t feel the need to follow it. She already knows everything she wants to know about her Islam.
El Cid
FWIW, the Ennahda party has their own party programme document [PDF here] which explains — among many other things — at least their formal outlook on the relationship between Islamic law and modern democracy based on the rights and conscience of the individual. Rooted in the ijtihad concept of Islamic law, rather than a notion of the unquestioning following of declarations.
Also, remember this isn’t quite the formation of a government — it’s to elect those to lead a constitutional convention to create one, which will then lead to the governing system to be chosen after the approval of the new Constitution.
THE
Another problem with Sharia might be what happens to people who choose to leave Islam?
You don’t necessarily have to convert to another religion. What happens if you just become a secular non-believer?
Will apostasy be a crime in the new Tunisia?
I relate to this question, because I left my religion to become a non-believer in the dim dark past — in my distant and long-forgotten youth.
Amir Khalid
@THE:
As you can see from the Apostasy section of the Wikipedia article on Shariah, there is no single answer to this question.
Yutsano
@Amir Khalid: I’m Baha’i. The child has no clue what to do with me. :)
THE
@Amir Khalid:
I know. This is an important question for a developing country, because it relates to the question of whether you can persuade the intellectual elites to stay, or whether they will seek greater freedom overseas.
Just to give the obvious example: the large expatriate Iranian community is in part a function of how repressed the intelligencia feel themselves to be.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid: shariah is not exactly the same anywhere. it is wholly dependent on tafsir, and the local jurisprudents and mufassir.
@Yutsano: i dont care what you are. you are what you have the substrate to be. man cannot acquire what he cannot use. i understandably resent you and Khalid issuing challenges to me to interpret the Miraculous Quran since i am neither a mufassir or a jurisprudent.
By saying that i am not a muslim because there must be two witnesses to the shahada (which is false), Khalid is takfiring me– ie he says i am not a muslim.
@THE: Iran is redstate/bluestate….the population is extremely similiar to the US. Nejad and the rurals are conservative, the urban dwellers and the intelligentsia in Qom are liberals.
the expatriate intelligentsia are secularists– of course they would be repressed in the ISLAMIC Republic of Iran.
And its a 50/50 split.
unfortunately all the police and military are drawn from the conservative Islam side.
For me, Islam is scientific.
Its evo theory of culture and evolutionary games theory AND revelation.
A seamless merger.
How could i resist the invitation to the dance?
Amir Khalid
In the case of Tunisia, there’s the Ennahda party’s manifesto (see El Cid’s link at #121). Party manifestos need to be taken with a pinch of salt. But it’s heartening to note that Ennahda are committed (on paper, at least) to intellectual freedom, as well as to the rights of women and religious minorities. Let’s see if the Tunisian intellectual elite decide to stay or to head for the exits.
gocart mozart
Law based on “Christian” principles is also very vague. It can range from MLK or Arch-Bishop Romero to Pat Buchanan or Bryan Fischer.
gocart mozart
@Amir Khalid:
Amir, would you be so kind as to translate Samara’s words into something we Earthlings can understand? Thanks in advance.
Samara Morgan
@El Cid:
shall we make a bet?
i bet the same disclaimer will be in the constitution that the Iraqis put in theirs, the same one the turks keep trying to add to their constitution every two years.
That is the beauty of mutawassir, tafsir, and a consensus religion. Localized interpretation. Islam is robust and flexible. All those things CAN be part of shariah.
It is not your bidness, el Campeador.
It isnt America’s bidness.
It is not Violets business if muslim men can have four wives or your business if women cover.
sure, missionary democracy with freedom of speech and freedom of religion might be “better” for emerging islamic democracies– but it cant be done…. naow.
America just spent 10 years and trillions of dollars trying.
like Nate Silver says, demographics is destiny.
Tunisia is 98% muslim.
THE
@Samara Morgan:
I agree. You could not.
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart:
that is not law, sorry.
interpretation sure.
but America has secular law because of the separation of church and state.
Islam has no separation of church and state.
quranic law is shariah law.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid: i think the secular elite may take a hike.
again, American client dictators repressed al-Islam to curry favor with America.
What we see in Egypt vis a vis the copts and anti-Israeli sentiment is backlash, from Mubarak enforcing America’s wishes against the wishes of the population.
KSA OTOH has enough power to enforce the strictest, most reactionary version of al-Islam in the ME and America can’t say boo! to them.
LOL.
gocart mozart
I dont care what you are.
you are what you have the substrate to be.
man cannot acquire what he cannot use.
And I forget just why I taste
Oh yeah I guess it makes me smile
I found it hard it’s hard to find
Oh well whatever nevermind
Chorus-
Hello, hello, hello, hello, how low?
Hello, hello, hello, hello, how low?
Hello, hello, hello, hello, how low?
Hello, hello, hello, hello
With the Lights out it’s less dangerous
Here we are now entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now entertain us
A mullato an albino
A mosquito my libido
A denial
gocart mozart
Not according to Christian sharia advocates.
Amir Khalid
@Samara Morgan:
Not so, mein Schatz. I do not dispute your conversion; I merely asked you who had witnessed it. Islamic tradition does require that a vow of this nature be witnessed.
Yutsano doesn’t ask you to interpret scripture, merely to cite it in support of your arguments.
Do you then approve that a significant group is excluded from political and social discourse in Iran? Or is it your position that this is how things should be in an Islamic state?
gocart mozart
missionary democracy? Meh, I prefer doggie-style democracy
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid:
i am a sufi. im not the -est anything.
I know a lot more about al-Islam than the juicitariat because i study the great islamic philosophers and read the Noble Quran. But anyone can do that.
Again, i question your adab, brother.
THE
@Samara Morgan:
No that is not the case. The history is that post-decolonization, many/most Islamic countries chose socialist-progressive models because they were run by Western-educated elites. It is not an accident, just like it is not an accident the Ho Chi Minh, who was btw educated in Paris, ended up as a Marxist.
gocart mozart
Let me get this straight, Samara is a Muslim who thinks Islam cannot co-exist with freedom and democracy!?
THE
Yikes I am in moderation because of the dreaded socia1ist word. This is the expurgated version:
@Samara Morgan:
No that is not the case. The history is that post-decolonization, many/most Islamic countries chose socia1ist-progressive models because they were run by Western-educated elites. It is not an accident, just like it is not an accident that Ho Chi Minh, who was btw educated in Paris, ended up as a Marxist.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid:
But islamic LAW does not.
but that is tafsir, and i am not qualified to do that, since i am not an islamic scholar or a mufassir.
@Amir Khalid:
Doesnt matter what i think.
it is how things are, largely as a response to the west propping quasi-secular “strong-men” in an attempt to terraform islamic culture, a response to Operation Ajax and the American Puppet-tyrant Shah.
It cant be done.
bi la kayfah
(it is understood)
what do you mean by a “significant” group? Percent population-wise or influence wise?
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart:
no, al-Islam is perfectly covalent with classical hellenic democracy, meaning the consent of the governed.
But the Holy Quran and thus shariah law are INCOMPATIBLE with “western-style” missionary democracy with freedom of speech.
gocart mozart
I thought it was your religion. One would think you would have some knowledge of it. I am no longer a Christian but I still feel entitled/obligated to cite gospel when I make a claim about religion. Its a basic rule of argument. Man up!
Samara Morgan
@Samara Morgan: wasnt Chalabi a secular elite Iraqi?
how much influence did he have on the rest of Iraqis?
nada.
:)
gocart mozart
What the hell is “missionary democracy” Samara?
Samara Morgan
@Cole
lawl.
not reproducable in the 21st century, unfortunately, although the US certainly tried to prop secular dictators in the Ataturk model.
Does the very model of a “moderate” islamic society try to insert shariah law back into the constitution evry two years?
;)
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart: westernstyle democracy with freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
THE
I don’t think you are quite understanding the liberal critique of classical democracy that leads to the modern notion of liberal-democracy (or constitutional democracy).
The problem with classical democracy was that it allowed the majority unlimited power, so for example, it could order the death of Socrates practically on a whim.
The solution that the liberals evolved was that democracy itself had to be limited. Democracy in and of itself can protect the rights of the majority but there is required in addition some kind of Bill of Rights in the constitution that limits the arbitrary power of democracy and protects the rights of dissenting minorities.
Without such a restriction, democracy itself is a form of tyranny: The tyranny of the majority.
Amir Khalid
@Samara Morgan:
I have expressed my doubts before about your reading comprehension, and now I express them again.
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart: again, Islam and christianity are vastly different.
Islam in evo theory of culture syntax is actually anti-christianity, the anti-matter to xianity’s matter.
tafsir
google is your friend.
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan:
Basic. Factual. Errors. Which you will just shrug off as unimportant.
I respect Islam. I fear you do not respond in kind.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid: and i do not think you are qualified to do tafsir.
Given that the Generous Quran explicitly states injunctions against Proselytizers, i would say you are interpreting….or perhaps lying through ignorance.
are we even?
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan:
Exact surah please?
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: where is the error?
The Quran explicitly states that rulers should govern with the consent of the governed.
are you saying there can be no democracy without freedom of speech and freedom of religion?
that is mighty arrogant of you.
;)
gocart mozart
@Samara Morgan:
so you make up your own words I see.
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: look it up. it will be a learning experience for you. :)
gocart mozart
@Samara Morgan:
I think it was Thomas Jefferson who said that.
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart: oh yes. i made up Distributed Jesusland and Snowcrash pizzas and juicitariat as well.
;)
if you like you can call it judeo-xian democracy as opposed to islamic democracy.
here is a question Omnes runs from.
Is Iraq a democracy?
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan: Not how this works dear. It is not my job to back up your assertions. In fact, that statement strikes me as talking out of your ass.
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart: exact surah please.
LOL!
i adore Thom Jefferson. i have never read that….but if he said that, it was about AMERICAN democracy….ie what i call missionary democracy.
That is westernstyle democracy with freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
Amir Khalid
@gocart mozart:
She was blinded by the light
Cut loose like a deuce, another runner in the night
Blinded by the light
She got down but she never got tight
But she’ll make it all right
— That’s my take on m_c.
THE
It isn’t Judeo Christian.
There is nothing liberal in Christianity. For over a thousand years Christian society was not liberal; it supported such ideas as the divine right of kings — The entire middle ages.
The liberal critique of classical democracy originated in secular philosophy.
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: idc. and you still havent pointed out my errors.
you can answer the question, perhaps.
Is Iraq a democracy?
gocart mozart
How about YOU just call it “democracy” and cool it with the religious bigotry.
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan:
Predictable.
The Iraqis have labeled it as such.
You are now trite. I can dismiss any further comments you have.
@gocart mozart:
Religious bigotry is all she has. How else is the rich white girl going to piss of Daddy and Mum-Mums?
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid: this is why we cant have a real discussion.
i had in mind you taking Ibn Tamiyyas part and I would be al-Ghazali, or you can be Ibn Rushd and ill be Ibn Arabi.
but you wont respect the dihliz.
gocart mozart
@Amir Khalid:
(golf clap)
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: i asked what YOU thought.
of course the Iraqis have a hellenic democracy, by the consent of the governed.
ducking?
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan:
Nothing in that question asks my opinion. And my opinion on the state of their government is irrelevant. But I assume you know that. You’re just trying to act smarter than you are.
gocart mozart
Samara, “hellenic democracy” doesn’t mean what you think it means. Google is your friend.
THE
Hellenic democracy was tyrannical.
The consent of the governed is not enough.
You also need protection for dissenting minorities.
You need a bill of rights implicitly or explicitly.
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart: why is this so upsetting to you?
its not our bidness what kind of democracies emerge from the Arab Spring revolutions.
The Grand Adventure of the Manifest Destiny of Westernstyle Democracy in MENA is an epic fail.
The US spent 10 years and trillions of dollars and at least seven thousand soldier lives trying to do something that cant be done.
Because when muslims are democratically empowered to vote, they vote for more Islam, not less.
It is a rejection of western mores and values.
So what?
America propped dictators and french kissed the Saudis for years in the name of cheap oil and Pax Americana.
its over.
we cant replicate the Ataturk model that John so admires.
it cant be done NAOW.
if we back off and quit trying to ram american culture down their throats, maybe it can happen in the future.
who can say?
Samara Morgan
@THE:
okthen. at least you are honest. the Iraqis do not have a “real” democracy.
my point remains that it cant be done…..in this frame of spacetime.
Americans are just going to have to let the citizens of MENA self-represent.
gocart mozart
Iraq is a struggling democracy. What’s your point?
gocart mozart
Samara, is Russia a democracy? Is democracy compatible with Russian Orthodox Christianity?
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: it was implicit. don’t you know grammer? hahahaha
ill phrase it explicitly then.
Do you, Yutsano, think Iraq is a democracy?
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart: Iraq has shariah law in the constitution, which was voted on by the Iraqi people.
yes?
how is that a struggle?
gocart mozart
@Samara Morgan:
I guess I care about human rights but hey, to each his/her own.
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart: i dont know. i havent given Russia any thought.
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart:
exactly my point.
gocart mozart
@Samara Morgan:
Was the United states a democracy for the first 175 years of its existence?
gocart mozart
@Samara Morgan:
So the truth comes out. You don’t give a shit about democracy or human rights after all. Why are you making such a big deal about it then?
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart: yes…well….a democratic republic. :)
ok, you be Ibn Rushd since Khalid won’t play.
gocart mozart
@Samara Morgan:
That’s never stopped you before.
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart: your definition of human rights is not the only definition.
that is my point.
gocart mozart
@Samara Morgan:
“Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra” perhaps but more likely “Shaka, when the walls fell.”
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan:
No it was not.
I know how to spell grammar too.
Objection: asked and answered.
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart: huh?
i have thought a lot about 911 and what flowed from it.
i studied arabic and reverted.
i dont really have any opinion about Russia.
i dont know enough to form one.
gocart mozart
@Samara Morgan:
My definition of human rights is the rights of all humans, what is yours.
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano:
link it or it didnt happen.
you see…in Iraq for example…the number of xians is halved from what it was under Saddam.
did you know that?
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan: So religious oppression is just hunky dory by you as long as YOUR religion is the one doing the oppressing. Duly noted. Go away bigot.
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart: false.
i think humans have a RIGHT not to be proselytized and not to be invaded and occupied in the name of enlightening those poor benighted polygamous shariah-ridden brown primitives.
from the islamic declaration of human rights.
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: you know nothing about Islam.
jews and christians could be citizens of the Caliphate– they just couldnt proselytize.
Muslims dont really care if xians wanna believe in the Jesus godhead– they are all people of the book.
But we do care, fervently as it turns out, that xians want to force us to believe it too. Especially when it involves missionaries, invasions, occupations, and wars.
and im not saying its “right”.
im saying the west cant do anything about it, and meddling just makes it worse.
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan: Herp de herp.
gocart mozart
@Samara Morgan:
Shaka, when the walls fell!
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: well, Cole evangelizing Turkey as “the very model of a moderate Islamic society” is ridickkulous. Turkey is the result of 90 years of a Kemalist dictatorship/military junta imposing secularism by force. And they still are oppressing the Kurds and lobbying for Palestinian statehood.
The Ataturk model is simply not reproducable in the 21st century.
my point remains, its not our bidness what government forms emerge from the Arab Spring revolutions. The US has been consistantly on the wrong side of history, Libya being the first break in the clouds.
And el Cid and Violet are just pathetic panty-sniffers
Samara Morgan
@gocart mozart: good analogy.
do you speak poetica sapentia?
we sufi “follow the caravan.”
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
Again, I feel I should point out that matoko thinks that Iran executing Christian ministers is just hunky-dory, but that E. D. Kain writing posts at Balloon Juice is the worst travesty ever to befall mankind.
She is a stupid rotten evil-minded tool. Why the hell can’t some front-pager take her at her word that freedom of speech shouldn’t be a human right and ban her ignorant ass for good?
Samara Morgan
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: i SAID that christian
ministerproselytizer had violated the laws of his state, and im still mazed that Glibertarian EDK fooled so many of the juicitariat in his search for sympathy and pageclicks.Their country, their laws, Jrod.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Samara Morgan: Yes yes. And if make the blazingly obvious observation that it’s a ridiculously unjust law, I’m a panty-sniffer who wants to invade the whole middle east.
Whatever, you jerk. When the law is fucked up in this country I’ll say so. When it’s fucked up in that country I’ll also say so.
As for Kain, who fucking cares. Get over it. If you can shrug off a man being executed for talking about the wrong religion like it ain’t no thing, you can overcome your obsession with some idiot who said stupid things a year ago at a website you clearly don’t respect.
Amir Khalid
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
I think it’s m_c’s position that in a Muslim-majority country governed by Shariah law, the rights of religious minorities exist only to the extent allowed by Shariah in that country i.e. that the Muslim majority has the right to proscribe other people’s religious expression as they see fit. (Needless to say, I don’t agree.) So if the Egyptian authorities say that building churches for Christians to worship in is tantamount to proselytizing to Muslims, then that’s what it is. If the Saudis severely punish all non-Muslim religious activity — hey, their country, their business; you infidels just butt out.
She doesn’t get that if Muslims expect non-Muslims to respect the sovereignty of their lands and their right to religious expression, they should likewise respect the religious rights of non-Muslims within those lands. You can explain that to her till the cows come home, and she still won’t accept it.
gocart mozart
At her core, she is an extreme right wing fascist but in her deluded mind she is “liberal”
gocart mozart
@Samara Morgan:
Hitlers country, Hitlers laws also.
Omnes Omnibus
@gocart mozart: Bingo.
arguingwithsignposts
Wow, she even dredged up the ghost of Kain in this thread.
Samara Morgan
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: lissen you sub-sapient.
how many times do i have to say this?
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AMURRIKKKA FUCK YEAH can do about this.
and the reason Nejad and Khamenei are in power today is American interventionism, returning the hated tyrant shah to power and overthrowing the ELECTED prime minister Mossadegh.
if we had MINDED OUR OWN BIDNESS Iran would have a parliamentary system today.
we BUILT those reavers, jackass.
im not “shrugging it off”, im saying its none of our business. Like burkhas and multiple wives.
go dig up your own garden Candide. there is injustice aplenty in your own country.
@gocart mozart: not the same. Germany is a judeochristian country. Merkel said so.
Islamic countries are immune to Murrikkkan interventionism.
BECAUSE THEY ARE ISLAMIC COUNTRIES.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid:
NO ITS NOT you liar.
im saying people have a right to self determination, and whatever government they choose, NOT something panty-sniffing puritans want to force on them because it would be “better” for them.
I am saying there is nothing America can do about it.
We tried in Iraq for 10 years and trillions of dollars and the population of christians in Iraq has halved since Saddam.
seven thousand of our soldiers died for nothing.
one out of five is coming home with some form of PTSD.
FOR NOTHING.
american busibodies. trying to tell the rest of the world how to live.
that fits my definition of proselytizing.
and now we are back to the Quran.
Samara Morgan
@arguingwithsignposts:
Jrod brought him up.
Samara Morgan
Again, Coles premise is wrong.
Turkey is not a model for anything.
They are not aligned with America’s interests.
Erdogan is on a lobby tour to promote Palestinian statehood.
They are not our friends because our friendship with Israel comes first.
America buys her dictator friends, and bullies the ones she cant buy.
Turkey is evolving from 90 years of Kemalist dictatorship/military rule to a modern islamic state. i doubt they will be “moderate” in the sense Cole is using it.
Does “moderate” mean acts in America’s interests?
THE
Yeah I guess, when he finishes repressing Kurdish statehood first.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid:
yes like Israelis, right?
what dont you understand about this? IT CANT BE DONE.
at least not now.
Islamic terrorism and arab nationalism are a RESPONSE to western interventionism in muslim lands. Like Israel. Like OIF and OEF. Like Operation Ajax.
you can argue humanitarian moral suasion until the cows come home, but you cant argue against the Quran with muslims.
christians believe they have an intrinsic right to proselytize.
muslims believe they have an intrinsic right to not be proselytized.
you cant balance that equation.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Samara Morgan: Where the hell did I say that America Fuck Yeah should do anything about it? I’m simply pointing out that Iran’s actions are barbaric.
Again, you assume that simply talking about things is the same as dropping freedom bombs and invading. It’s not. These are different things. You know who understands that? Five-year-olds. Small children can grasp the difference between discussing facts and invading a country. Most of Jerry’s kids would get the distinction easily. Why can’t you? Oh right, because you’re a troll.
Are you saying that Americans must completely ignore everything that happens outside our borders? Or is it just Muslims we must completely ignore in order to avoid sniffing panties?
You know, I have some interest in pointing it out when theocracies do horrific things. It’s evidence that theocracies are evil. And no, you moron, this isn’t important to me because I want an excuse to invade Iran, it’s important because politics in America is a constant struggle against Christian theocracy.
You understand that, right? The United States is full of people who’d love nothing more than to make the Bible as interpreted by Pat Robertson the law of the land. Sometimes they get their way, at least enough to spread some misery around. It’s good to have rhetorical ammo to use against them, like for example pointing out where religious law eventually leads.
But even besides that, you seem to hold the opinion that simply being informed about the goings-on of the world isn’t an American’s business because liek panty-sniffing OMG. To that I say go fuck yourself with a rusty naginata. It’s only in your twisted mind that curiosity about the world equates to lust for war.
I mean, is this your new troll technique? Pretend that everything anyone has to say is secret code for “let’s invade more Islamic countries?” That’s just swell of you. More of that truth-seeking you’re known for.
Asshole.
EDIT: I brought up Kain? No, sweetums. You spent something like six months going into every other thread here to bitch about E. D. Kain. You chose to permanently associate yourself with him at this site. Because that’s your priority in life. Your presence brought him up, and so shall it always be. Nice thought, right? For many of the regulars here, your two names are intertwined as one. That’s your victory.
Samara Morgan
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
then work in your own garden Candide, we will get along fine.
America spent 10 years and trillions of dollars panty-sniffing.
I want for that to not happen again.
Again, you are critiquing Islam from a western standpoint, and you actually know nothing about tafsir, islamic jurisprudence, shariah, or mutawattir.
You also know nothing about evo theory of culture and how al-Islam evolved.
what is happening in MENA has absolutely no bearing on xian theocracy. so yeah, you are either panty-sniffing or evangelizing western culture.
You should read some evo theory of religion.
I recommend Boyer’s Religion Explained and Atran’s In Gods We Trust.
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: A ‘ruler governing’ is not the same as classic ‘Democracy’.
Samara Morgan
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: you brought him into this thread.
that is a false statement.
i think Iran executing a proselytizer that was running an illegal network of house churches is sad but inevitable given the current status of islamic law in the Islamic Republic of Iran.
And i dont think BJ Kain was “the worst travesty ever to befall mankind. ”
I just said he fooled a lot of people here.
Samara Morgan
@Paul in KY: if the ruler governs with the consent of the governed, why is that not democratic?
do you think “real” democracy has to incorporate freedom of speech and freedom of religion?
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
Candide? Seriously? Be honest, you read about it on Wikipedia. I don’t think the intent behind “tend your own garden” was that a person should never ever learn anything or dare to have any opinion about anything that happens outside of that person’s home country. In fact, I’m pretty sure Voltaire would find the idea just as ridiculous as I do.
Anyway, when the Christianists take over the US and start rounding up Muslims into concentration camps, I expect your reaction as you’re being herded into the showers to be “This is sad, but to be expected in a Christian republic like Gilead. I sure hope no panty-sniffers in other countries are talking about this right now, because it nunna ther bizniz desu.”
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: A very convenient rule, if you are an Islamic cleric, non?
SLKRR
@Samara Morgan:
Do Bahá’ís have the right to self-determination as well, or only what Muslims want to force on them because it would be “better” for them?
Paul in KY
@Amir Khalid: I think that was a succinct recapping of Samara’s position vis a vis ‘proselytizing’.
Jibes with my take on her position (after reading them over and over and over again).
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: If the noble people choose a government that burns unwanted ‘polytheistic’ babies for fuel (for example) & those people are cool with that, then you are cool with that?
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: Democracy implies real participation by the polity. If a ‘ruler’ pre-empts that or has no need for the people’s input, then it is not ‘Democracy’, it is a Dictatorship that the polity has consented (or not consented) to.
If people in a real democracy voluntarily vote to remove their democratic systems, then it ceases to be a democracy (even though democratic methods brought about the change).
El Cid
@Samara Morgan:
It’s as much ‘my bidness’ as it is yours. You were similarly dismissive when I quoted the actual text and context of the referendum being voted on in Egypt which.
It’s my ‘business’ what’s done in a small town in Malawi, just like it’s their ‘business’ what happens in my neighborhood — if by “business” we mean curiosity and the expressions of human inquiry and reason, and not if by “business” we mean interference.
People who live in lands where there is a legal and cultural tradition of Islamic law ask these questions too, whatever the pressures placed upon them. Yes, they’re actually real people, who think about stuff, and argue about stuff, no matter what they’re surrounded with in regard to the implementation and view of Islamic law.
People whose “freedom of speech” are silenced by force have feelings about such coercion — whether in agreement or disagreement — without any relation to what some anonymous internet poster on a blog named “Balloon Juice” feels about the failure of “Western” and “missionary” ‘freedom of speech’ or ‘democracy’.
They did so before “the West” ever existed as anything other than a geographic term, and, indeed, spoke their minds and were often punished for it. In the Songhai Empire, in pre-Islamic Egypt, even in pre-Islamic Arabia.
Many who argue for the ijtihad / local view / context-adapted Shari’a law are doing so not merely based on their desire to maintain Islamic law while including fundamentally broader interpretations, but because they have little other choice given the power structures of their national or local society. Many Muslims — I’m talking empirically, not in line with someone else‘s conception of what a Muslim is or isn’t — would prefer to be rid of Islamic law, and can do so if 99.999999999% of the rest of their nation’s population disagrees.
Catholicism is built upon the leadership of the Pope, and the Church’s views dictate (in the literal sense) the interpretation of the Bible and of prescriptive rules. Among them, for example, a resistance to contraceptives. However, in Catholic Brazil, a bishop who sponsored programs to distribute contraceptives was interviewed about this contradiction. ‘Don’t you accept the Pope as leader of the Church and the one who sets doctrine?’ ‘Yes, absolutely.’ ‘Then how can you support contraceptives given that the Pope has declared against them?’ ‘Of course he is our Church’s spiritual leader, but it doesn’t mean we do everything he says.’ Thankfully US policymakers helped the Catholic church’s campaign to slaughter these dissident and liberation theology oriented Catholic priests throughout the 1980s and 1990s.
As we well understand, the correctness of an argument is not determined by the number or proportion of people disagreeing. A single person dissenting from a billion is no more wrong, if the argument is logical enough and sound enough.
I exist (at least for some time period) whether or not the nation of the USA exists as a legally recognized sovereign territory, or if it doesn’t. I exist if I move to Medina, or next to the Goma River, or am a scientist stationed in Antarctica, or for that matter orbiting the Earth.
You have no more legitimacy to comment on these subjects than anyone. Hell, you didn’t even know the history of El Cid before you kept ranting about “El Campeador.”
If I wish to read about or discuss issues of Islam, I don’t need your permission — I can do so with actual Muslims, both here and abroad, not some agrammatical, anti-parantheses vocuretic. I did so and continue to do so, as I did before a John Cole blog existed and if one does not exist.
Who on Earth would confuse you with a scholar — both academic, i.e., based on empirical research, or religious — of Shari’a law? As you clearly state, from a perspective which I hope you don’t consider to be somehow exotic or exclusive, i.e., Sufi, anyone can read the Qur’aan, al Kitaab.
Not only are Islamic contexts the more direct results of colonialism and Western (and non-Western) military and economic and political intervention — the interpretation and imposition of Islamic beliefs, the turn to formal repression and means of warfare known as ‘terrorism’ — they are the result of the very designation of the arbitrary territories declared by their colonizers as “nations” or “nation-states”. Political entities which have divided as much as they unify.
Sufis themselves, as you know, were among the earliest “anti-imperialists,” objecting to both the fact of and the religious bases of Islamic states dedicated to conquer and empire maintenance. Though modern science is greatly dependent upon the support for scientific thought from those same Caliphates.
The Qur’an cannot deal with the State of Israel as we know it today, since that State came into existing in 1948 only, i.e. many centuries after the Qur’an itself was revealed. Whoever denies this actually denies the Qur’an itself. If he is not a scholar, and in good faith believes what other people say about this issue, he is an ignorant Muslim. If, on the contrary, he is informed about what the Qur’an and openly opposes it, he cease to be a Muslim.
‘Ethnic’ disputes are as significant as and are often submerged with or portrayed as disputes within and for Islam. Qaddafi’s power base depended upon ‘tribes’ whose power often predated Islam, no matter the modern statistics of Islamic belief and the rooting of the post-Qaddafi state law in “Shari’a”.
Who on Earth would be so stupid as to conclude that the quotation of Ennahda statements implied that the one doing the quoting was thus citing a belief in how laws would soon be applied?
I realize these are subtle points, but then, they are effective enough, given that you will not comprehend them anyway. Likewise, it will not deter you from repeating your same statements over and over, any more than cicadas choose not to emerge en masse with periodic regularity.
I don’t understand the “panty sniffing” part, though I hope the implication isn’t that such a thing would be wrong in the bedroom between two consenting adults.
THE
I agree el Cid, she says “panty-sniffing” like it’s a bad thing.
I keep thinking: Wow this is something we need more of.
Serious cause of misunderstanding I fear.
She needs to be more aware of the ambivalence of these deep primal messages.
Bob
Kind of scary – good news out of Tunisia the first reaction is how this might or should affect our policy toward Israel? Is it you? Is it me? I’d like to think I’m just being disingenuous here but – except for the obvious answer that everything is about our policy toward Israel – I can’t really see how, so I’ll just step off here and think for a few minutes and maybe it’ll come to me.
THE
Seriously I think there are really two radically different “liberal” positions.
One is that there is a universal set of human rights, and it is everyone’s problem if there is any violation. This is the interventionist position. I suppose the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights might be a suitable standard. I seem to remember Jimmy Carter as a prime exponent of this sort of view.
Then there is what I would call the Star Trek “prime directive” position. No interference in other cultures. Respect differences. There are really difficult questions like war crimes and genocide, where most people are universalists.
El Cid
@THE: There is also a valid realm of “positions” on this matter which has to do with an individual’s own inquiry, which shouldn’t be elided directly to a view on the exertion of nation-state power.
I might have all sorts of thoughts, including outrage, regarding the abuse of a young woman by an elder in Kano, but this doesn’t directly lead to one or another view of how a nation or group of nation should use the tools of war and statecraft and economics to affect that situation.
Even narrowed down to the question of ‘what should I advise policymakers to do,’ one position relating to both the “RTP” claims and the non-interference claims is an awareness of how broadly and frequently catastrophically harmful the results of an intentionally well-meaning intervention might be.
There aren’t too many calculations I’ve seen into how a coercive international intervention into North Korea or Zimbabwe or Burma — certainly under current conditions — would actually result in the sort of net good which lots of advocates suggest would follow. I.e., risking utter chaos and state collapse — horrendously awful situations can indeed be made worse.
This doesn’t give a clear up or down guide to one’s own moral opinionating or state policy, but it is a strong acknowledgement of reality.
There were a lot of people such as myself who might have made a similar decision to what actually happened if in the position of policymaking when it was time to attack or not attack Qaddafi’s forces, yet who weren’t sure of the impact of the outcome. In particular I feared a long and sporadic ‘small’ arms North African / Sahel civil war of the type we’ve seen in the last several decades. Thankfully I was wrong.
Samara Morgan
@SLKRR: muslims do not believe in original sin, thus all humans are born muslim– already “saved”.
Children are supposed to be raised in the faith of their parents, whatever that may be– Bahai, xian, hindu, w/e. That is Islam.
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
but that cannot happen, because of two things.
One Thom Jefferson and the separation of church and state, and the mandate of freedom of religion.
And two, the demographic decline of white christians in the population.
demographics is destiny.
Samara Morgan
@El Cid:
Indeed all of al-Islam is an evolutionary response to christianity. Islamic terrorism is a response to western colonialism, interventionism, missionariism and proselytizing. The return to fundamentalism is explained elegantly in Boyers book.
Like all unstudied westerners you do not understand the mechanism of the uncreated revealed Quran, which is outside time and space. It involves mutawattir, tafsir, and the incredible flexibility of the arabic language. What that all means is that islamic scholars can interpret the Quran in a myriad of ways….but they dont, do they?
The reason no mufassir can currently make interpretations that are favorable to muslim populations being colonized by western ideologies (ie “tolerance”) is that Islam is under attack. Bush’s War on
TerrorIslam.Nothing can go out of mutawattir, which means transmission or clear sending.
Defense against proselytization response is an EGT reflex. You can read about those in Maynard-Smith’s book, Evolution and the Theory of Games.
El Cid
@Samara Morgan:
You have me there. I entirely admit to a serious lack of knowledge of issues outside time and space.
However, I have a new insight into the origins of the notions present in your comments.
[Also, TIME CUBE.]
Samara Morgan
@El Cid: the reason Libya worked out was because the West (America, NATO) was on the side of the people for once…the side of the “insurgents”.
The anti-dictator side.
That is why counter-insurgency can never work, being basically anti-democratic in that it is against the will of the people.
El Cid
@Samara Morgan: No, I get that part of which side the people were on. I worried that the war might prompt chaotic instability. That was the wrong part, as I worried that a complete victory over Qaddafi didn’t appear as in the cards as a disintegrative war.
SLKRR
@Samara Morgan:
It would be nice if more of this Islam could be found in Iran and Egypt.
Samara Morgan
@SLKRR: how do you know it isnt?
sure, there are bad muslims, just like there are bad xians. But this is how Islam is supposed to work…but defense against proselytization is a reflex– a response to western interventionism…the more the west tries to impose its values and mores, the more muslims will resist.
Consider A-stan. The Taliban are mostly deobandi sufi, a sect that built madrassas’ with the express purpose of training students to fight the British Raj.
What is happening to the copts in Egypt is the result of Mubarak pandering to America for nearly 30 years.
Its like the lid blowing off a pressure cooker.
@El Cid: oh, sry, i misunderstood.
Samara Morgan
@El Cid: you COULD read Ibn Arabi’s Time and Cosmology.
but i expect you wont.
:)
Samara Morgan
@El Cid:
yes the Quran CAN deal with Israel, because the Quran is outside time and space. it contains all information necessary. but that information can only be accessed through the device of tafsir by trained scholars.
And those scholars are dependent on their spacetime frame.
SLKRR
@Samara Morgan:
I’m referring to treatment of the Bahá’ís, which has nothing to do with Western interventionism. And it’s not a question of proselytization, either, since whenever a government says to the Bahá’ís that they can’t attempt to spread their religion, then they don’t. But they’re being imprisoned for teaching their own children… and not even for teaching them religion, but teaching them math, science, whatever. They’re forbidden to get a higher education at all!
So, back to my comment: “I wish *more* of this Islam could be found in Iran and Egypt.” I know for a fact that there are many wonderful Muslims living in both countries. Millions of them. I just wish there were more… enough to induce their respective governments to allow minority religions to live in peace.
THE
@Samara Morgan:
I don’t believe it is as simple as that. A significant part of the pre-modern expansion of Islam was at the expense of prior Christendom.
Understand I have no personal stake in this, I dislike both religions. But in the interests of accuracy. I believe earlier Islam was imperialistic. It met its match, that’s all.
Samara Morgan
@THE: and here i thought you believed in evolution.
have you read Maynard-Smith?
Samara Morgan
@THE: its match,
LOL!
allow me to point out some empirical data.
10 years and 14.3 trillion dollars ago, Iraq was 97% muslim, and A-stan was 99% muslim.
Today Iraq is is 97% muslim and A-stan is 99% muslim and Iraq just planted a boot in America’s ass and the Taliban are going to roll into Kabul and put Karzais head on a pike as soon as we fold our tents.
After the Arab Spring, the American Fall.
and….
winter is coming.
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: Met its match when Hulagu Khan went whoopass on them.
Samara Morgan
@SLKRR:
me too!
But in Iran and Egypt al-Islam has been deformed, mutated by (primarily) American interventionism.
Operation Ajax, the american puppet-tyrant Shah in Iran, and 29 years of Mubarak in Egypt.
Samara Morgan
@Paul in KY: AMG the Khans.
do you know how Ghengis conquered? He assimilated all religions.
that was sheer genius.
Shamanism allows for the incorporation of all different religions. that way his sons and grandsons could marry into the local royals.
Paul in KY
@Samara Morgan: I’ve read a couple of books about him & his descendents. Yes, he was an unusual man, from an unusual culture. Assimilated Chinese culture/engineering/etc. into his empire once he had conquered them.
Had an effective way of getting towns to surrender. Would show up at gates with army & ask for surrender. All they needed to do was acknowledge him as overlord, pay taxes & everything would be cool. If they resisted, the entire town would be put to the sword (except for about 50 or so survivors who would be sent on ahead to report to the next town what had happened to them).
He conquered Afganistan.
Also, his grave is somewhere out in Mongolia. Was very well hidden at his death. Supposed to be a great trove of treasure. Mongolian government will not allow any hunting for grave site, though.
THE
Understand Samara.
I have no axe to grind in a war between Islam and Christianity. I have no dog in that fight.
But it is clear that Islam expanded against Christendom for centuries before Christendom started to push back in the Spanish Reconquista or the Crusades or the Siege of Vienna. So your theory that Islam was a reaction to Christian expansion does not fit the facts that Islam expanded against Christendom first.
El Cid
@Samara Morgan: I played a trick on you. That’s actually a quote from someone who has something to say to your perspective.
Go back to the original comment, in that paragraph, and click on the period at the end of the last sentence. It’s a link.
THE
Even when European imperialists conquered Egypt or Syria in the 19th – 20th century at the height of the “Age of Empires”.
In a very real sense they were not so much conquering as reconquering territory that had already been Christian more than a thousand years earlier, before Islam was born.
So what we were really seeing was just the rise and fall of Empires on both sides.
I have always suspected that the reason that Islam and Christianity can’t stand each other is that, in reality, they are so much alike.
THE
So my point Samara, is that your “evolutionary theory” is a pile of steaming bullshit that does not agree with even the most basic historical facts.
Samara Morgan
@THE:
islam and xianity are nothing alike. xianity is exclusive and al-Islam is inclusive.
xianity is authoritatian, islam is a consensus religion.
In the beginning there were the jews.
birthright membership with some bride capture.
then came xianity–all membership requires is professing a belief in the Christ.
then Islam (the tertiary form of monotheism)– anyone can join, and xians and jews are ALREADY members! we all believe in the same Allah. pretty slick, non?
And we co-opted their sacred texts, see?
Plus al-Islam difuses the “killer app” of xianity with immunity to proselytization– so evolutionarily elegant.
i guess that is why in 20 years one out of four humans will be muslim.
:)
srsly, i thought you were an evolution otaku? just organic evolution?
so what do you think of red/blue genetics?
Samara Morgan
@El Cid: orly? dont see it. you must be too subtle for me.
Samara Morgan
@THE: look…im not talking about the gates of vienna.
im talking about the EEA, the environment of evolutionary adaptation of islam.
the beginning of islam.
THE
Srsyly Samara, sometimes I wonder if you and I speak the same language. You are spinning spinning spinning all the time.
So now I have to fisk another one of your 10 assertions per square inch posts, that requires an essay for each refutation?
Go fuck yourself you worthless lying piece of shit.
THE
I was saying that they were so much the same because they were both imperialists.
Islam against Christendom first — for many centuries before Christendom mounted an effective response.
THE
*************************************************************
They were the same Because they were both Imperialists Samara
*************************************************************
THE
I*M*P*E*R*I*A*L*I*S*M* I*S* N*O*T* G*E*N*E*T*I*C*
THE
ʎɐs ı buıɥʇʎɹǝʌǝ ʇsıʍʇ oʇ buıʎɹʇ doʇs
Amir Khalid
@THE:
Twisting everything said to her is pretty much m_c’s approach to argument. Along with riding her hobby horses in each and every thread. Along with refusing to accept factual correction. Along with being arrogant and rude, her favorite response to the few other commenters who still try to be tactful and polite with her.
(Of course, I”m well aware that you already know all this. This is for her benefit, on the off chance she might want to take it in.)
THE
Thanks Amir Khalid.
I need to invent a good name for her multi-topic misdirection comments.
Whenever she can’t answer a question she throws one of those multi-topic comments at you in the hope that one of the comments will misdirect you onto another topic.
I think I’ll call them:
Samara’s Spin-Cycle
or perhaps:
ǝlɔʎɔ-uıds s,ɐɹɐɯɐS