Big gubmint getting in the way of innovation and job creation yet again:
[R]ecently, the Federal Trade Commission moved to shut down two California-based operators that handled collections nationally, including one that is accused of using tactics so egregious that they resemble scenes from a film noir script. [….]The commission’s complaint offers two jaw-dropping examples. In one, the callers attempted to collect from a woman who was unable to pay the balance due for her daughter’s funeral. “During the calls, Rumson, Bolling & Associates told her they were going to dig her daughter up and hang her from a tree if she did not pay the debt,” the complaint says. Callers also threatened to eat her dog and even to kill her if she didn’t pay, the complaint says.
Another instance involved a woman who had fallen behind on her payments to a funeral home, after both of her sons died within a week of each other. The callers “asked how she would feel if her son’s body was dug up and dropped outside her door,” the complaint states.
Good on the Times for covering this, but remind me again what the film noir movie was where they dug up the body of someone whose mom fell behind on credit card payments.
(I don’t use this post title lightly — this is fucked up.)
PeakVT
Debt collection fees are a hell of a drug, apparently. Or maybe it’s money in general.
BGinCHI
How does the firm divvy up this work?
“OK, junior partners, you get started on the dog samosas and we’ll start wiring her car with C4. See you all at Happy Hour.”
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
What the f-…
This isn’t the Onion, right? NYT didn’t get duped by the Onion going overboard again, right? I mean….FUCK, that’s going beyond sociopathic.
Martin
Hey, you never know what the invisible hand of the market will dig up.
The Republic of Stupidity
I know my noir pretty well and I’ll be damned if I know which flick…
But… apart from the sheer ugliness of it, that would make a pretty good bit in a film…
Back in the real world… I got into some minor trouble w/ credit cards back in 1990 and as I recall, the last time I got a call on one of those cards was mebbe a year ago… I kid you not…
And by the time the issuing banks wrote the original debts off, they had run the interest due on roughly $5k up to mebbe $30K, which I’m assuming they got to write off as additional loss, against real income…
Ya gotta love the invisible hand of the marketplace… as it’s busy groping you in the dark…
SiubhanDuinne
Killing someone in order to get them to pay a bill? That seems both devoid of logic and excessively petulant.
The Republic of Stupidity
@Martin:
Heh… great minds, blah blah blah…
The Republic of Stupidity
@SiubhanDuinne:
As I recall… even the Mafia isn’t quite that dumb…
Spaghetti Lee
(Puts on libertarian hat) Well, at least those companies don’t use VIOLENCE to get what they want, they just-oh? Um. Well, never mind.
Morzer
I seem to remember a boutique flick directed by K. Rove that detailed this episode in the life of John Kerry – or was it Al Gore?
BGinCHI
Didn’t Jonah Goldberg dig up his mom?
I can’t remember whether he did it to get her credit cards or to do something else. Help me out here.
Morzer
@BGinCHI:
That was The Mommy Returns, right?
Spaghetti Lee
@Spaghetti Lee:
I mean seriously. Fucking libertarians think that private contracts can solve everything. Did this woman sign a contract that said her creditors will dig up her kid’s corpse and kill her dog? If not, libertarians, then why don’t you fuck off and fix your broken ideology?
John PM
Looks like it is time for Republicans to repeal the Fair Debt Collections Practices Act! Deregulate, deregulate…
This also appears to be a good reason to get creamated. Once the ashes are scattered, there is nothing to dig up.
BGinCHI
@Morzer: Yeah, I think so. But it’s different in that the “hero” (he’s chubby and stupid) loves his mummy. I mean really, really loves her.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@BGinCHI: I think he dumped her in the Thames.
Undertaker: Yea. Now there’s three things we can do with your mum. We can bury her, burn her, or dump her.
Man: Dump her?
Undertaker: Dump her in the Thames.
Man: (still aghast) What?
Undertaker: Oh, did you like her?
Man: Yes!
Undertaker: Oh well, we won’t dump her, then. Well, what do you think: burn her, or bury her?
Man: Um, well, um, which would you recommend?
Calouste
Seems like some animal rights extremists found a new gig.
BGinCHI
@Spaghetti Lee: Contract Law Syllabus at Regent Law School:
Week 1: Kneecaps.
Week 2: Dogs, eating.
Week 3: Asses, Putting Caps In.
Week 4: Hayek, NRA, How to make a sap.
JGabriel
@Martin: Win!
.
Jesse
@The prophet Nostradumbass: I think we’ve got an eater…
Violet
OT – The Occupy Oakland General Assembly just voted overwhelmingly in favor of a General Strike. Not quite sure how that’s going to work, but it’s an interesting development. Can’t remember the last time I’ve heard serious discussion of a General Strike. It’s all over the OWS discussions on Twitter.
JGabriel
@Spaghetti Lee:
Yes, it does pose a problem when the execution of contracts becomes the contracts of execution.
.
Yutsano
@Violet: What’s the phrase I’m looking for? Oh yeah: Shit just got serious.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Violet: that is, unfortunately, unlikely to go anywhere.
Violet
@Yutsano:
Yeah, I think that happened yesterday when the Iraq War veteran got injured badly enough to be in critical condition. I think that was something of a wake up call.
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
People didn’t think the OWS protests would go anywhere either. I have no idea what will happen, but I’m not going to rule it out. I guess we’ll see. They’ve called for the General Strike next Wednesday, November 2. So there’s a week to plan and organize.
Edit: Apparently #GeneralStrike is trending on US Twitter. And the last GS was in Oakland in 1946. Interesting synergy there.
suzanne
@SiubhanDuinne:
New rotating tagline. That is so awesome.
In all seriousness, how do those people sleep at night? How could you honestly not want to eat a bullet if you told someone who lost their children that you were going to dig up their corpses and defile them? FUCK.
Calouste
@suzanne:
Seems like they missed out on a career on Wall Street or in the GOP. Or, as I noted above, in animal rights extremism.
Yutsano
@Violet:
This is called what happens when history is happening right in front of you. And if you study revolutions, the trend is that they get their most intense when economic conditions start to improve not when they are at their nadir. I’m making lots and lots of popcorn. This could get juicy.
Mack Lyons
@suzanne: Sociopaths without empathy?
One of these days, someone’s gonna take those threats to heart and track down the people making them. Those debt agencies better have a contingency plan for someone breaking in their offices with an AK or several pounds of plastic explosives strapped to them. The way things are going, it’s just a matter of time.
Violet
@Yutsano:
Yep. Things are definitely getting interesting. #GeneralStrike is trending, on US Twitter at least. Lots of people don’t even know what a GS is. Steep learning curve. Definitely popcorn time.
hhex65
@BGinCHI: all the knowledge you need to be a Maker and not a Taker
Violet
@suzanne:
I wonder if the low level folks spewing those threats are so on the edge of financial ruin themselves that they’re just doing what they’re told to do out of fear they’ll end up like the people they’re calling. They’re afraid they’ll get fired if they don’t. Sort of the Nuremberg defense. Doesn’t excuse it.
amk
Ah, pure capitalism at work. How delicious it is.
slag
@Calouste: I’m now sitting here thinking up all the ways in which I might become an “animal rights extremist” just to piss you off. I now totally get what Republicans see in pissing off supposed liberals.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Violet:
The time to plan and organize is before you call for a general strike. History strongly suggests that if you get them out of order, either you become laughingstocks or your movement gets hijacked out from under you, usually by the Bolsheviks.
Contra Yutsano, this is the exact opposite of serious.
Martin
Sounds like both Oakland and SF have larger crowds tonight. I’d say last night backfired pretty badly. At least one state senator is at the SF protest.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Violet: You don’t announce a “general strike”, then organize it. You announce after, so the targets don’t know it’s coming.
ETA: also, they’re illegal.
Yutsano
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
I didn’t realize there were rules for a general strike. Getting a significant number of people to just. not. show. up. has an impact, especially if it lasts for a long time frame. There really are no rules here.
Violet
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
The Bolsheviks? How common are they these days?
I agree there is a big opportunity for failure here. But then, like I said above, people were highly skeptical of OWS at the beginning, and yet its existence seems to have changed our national dialogue so that we aren’t talking about the deficit and instead are talking about income inequality.
Maybe the GS, if it happens, will fall flat and be a disaster. Maybe it’ll be a real eye-opener. Who knows. At this point, I guess I’m not going to rule out either option or something in between.
Martin
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN): Agreed, but organizing is done a LOT differently these days. I’m not sure what the most effective model is any more.
Spaghetti Lee
A general strike is kind of a linchpin moment, though, isn’t it? If it works, it really works, but if it fails, a whole of air gets sucked out of the movement. I’d support a general strike, but I hope they know what they’re doing.
tulip
Completely OT: But something is happening in Oakland. Occupy Oakland wanted to join the Occupy SF (I think) but the police would not allow them onto BART. Now they are walking in downtown Oakland.
The police are laying low, for now.
Asshole newscaster keeps asking if the marching protesters are leaving the business’ alone that they are marching past. And yes, yes they are.
Before the news cut to commercial they showed the police gathering in SF to I guess clean out Occupy SF, and there are row and rows of buses and cars and motorcycles gathering. I doubt it will be anything like what happened last night in Oak-town, but things may not end well in SF either.
Oh and Oakland made TDS.
Violet
@Martin:
I think it would be hard to keep plans for a General Strike secret in the age of Twitter, Facebook, etc. I read something recently that people who organize flash mobs are finding it really hard to organize and keep them secret because someone always lets the cat out of the bag on the social networking sites. I think things have just changed. Not that flash mobs are the same as a GS, but it’s the principle of how social networking has changed organizing and communication that is similar.
Linnaeus
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
I don’t know if we have to worry about the Bolsheviks this time around, but it’s true that you have to have people ramped up and ready to go before you call an action like that. I’ve helped to plan and execute a strike of the non-general variety, and I can tell you that it takes a fuckton of work. You’ve got to get people moved to the point where they’re willing to even consider striking (after you’ve made clear to them what a strike really means). Then you’ve got to get people committed to actually walking the lines. Then, once you’ve started you’ve got to make sure they keep walking the lines. And so on and so on. It’s no easy task, and I don’t think a week is long enough to do all that.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@tulip: I am pissed off, but not surprised, to find out that my hometown PD were involved in that Oakland shit last night . They’re being very coy about how involved they really were. Fuck them.
Spaghetti Lee
@tulip:
Oh and Oakland made TDS.
Uh, I damn well hope so. Probably the only news show that paid attention to it. Wonkette had this great article today about how WaPo’s front page story on the event was “Oakland PD officer cares for kitten left behind at protest.” Can’t make this shit up. I’ve seen people here talk about how even the “respectable” media just flat out lie, but it’s really hit me head-on at this point.
PeakVT
@tulip: Asshole newscaster is probably hoping for something as “exciting” as the London riots. Of course, anyone who was paying attention knows the OWS protests are very different.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@The prophet Nostradumbass: As much as I say “fuck them”, I still side with them on the odious Measure D up for a vote in November, that strips binding arbitration from police and fire contract negotiations. It’s stealth union stripping.
tulip
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
Actually I heard there were the poo poo from all over CA, as far away as LA, were at Oakland last night.
Doesn’t surprise me that Palo Alto PD were there too.
So frustrating, OA just tried to get on BART and the police barred them from entering again. How is that legal?
And one more thing these dick broadcasters keep implying that last night’s violent was because of the protesters.
AA+ Bonds
Douglas “Dougie” Schoen, author of “”Mad as Hell: How the Tea Party Movement is Fundamentally Remaking Our Two-Party System” and full-time Fox barker:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
u mad
Karen
I work for a collection agency that is also a law firm and there are certain things that should be kept in mind.
First of all, there is something known as the Fair Debt Collection Act. When collection agencies violate it, they can be sued and fined big amounts of money, which is why reputable agencies don’t violate it. It sounds like these operators are big violators.
One big violation is intimidation like death threats and other threats. If cease and desist letters are sent to the agency, they’re obligated BY LAW to cease contact with the debtor.
I know that a lot of you probably feel that debt collection agencies shouldn’t exist and they’re evil. Some are. But don’t tar all of us with the same brush.
MeDrewNotYou
@Violet: Interesting, and I’d like to see what comes of it, especially after what happened to the vet.
But it is a damn shame that November 5th falls on a Saturday this year, otherwise that’d be a great day to do it.
AA+ Bonds
The difference between the Tea Party and OWS is that polls consistently show that a majority of Americans support OWS on pretty much everything
Spaghetti Lee
@AA+ Bonds:
Clearly, clearly out of touch! All the millionaires I talked to at a cocktail party last weekend agreed with me!
AA+ Bonds
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
You’re a complete tool, you know that?
Calouste
@slag:
Well, you could start digging up a dead grandmother, because that is what they did.
There’s a reason I make a distinction between “extremists” and “activists”.
Violet
@MeDrewNotYou:
They’ve been going back and forth on Twitter as to whether the date is Nov 2 or 5. Apparently OO’s GA voted on Nov 2, but I guess the 5th would be such a good day that people thought that was the day. But like you said, it’s a Saturday, so that doesn’t work as well.
AA+ Bonds
@Spaghetti Lee:
You read that story this guy wrote and it’s fantastic – his big hit on OWS is that CONTRARY TO POPULAR(?) BELIEF(??), people in OWS support raising taxes on the wealthy like everyone else, HOLY SHIT WHAT A SCOOP
Spaghetti Lee
The 5th as in Guy Fawkes Day? You know, I’ve never really gotten that myself. Guy was a Catholic theocrat, wasn’t he?
Linnaeus
@Spaghetti Lee:
For any strike to work, though, there has to be some kind of achievable goal that’s its directed toward. The general strikes (in North America, at least) that had any kind of success (the best examples I can think of are Winnipeg in 1919 and San Francisco in 1934,though the latter was part of a wider West Coast strike) came out of specific grievances and the organizers had particular solutions to those grievances in mind. Even then, it takes a lot of discipline (as well as resistance to pressure by the state) to keep a general strike going. Winnipeg’s lasted about five weeks. Most others in North American labor history lasted a few days.
Spaghetti Lee
@AA+ Bonds:
That’s what makes them out of touch? Hoo boy. Hey, I don’t mind oblivious toolbags like Schoen being the public face of opposition to OWS. In fact, I’d like them to speak up.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@AA+ Bonds:
well, he is an accountant.
He is, also, one of the people on this site I have actually met in persn.
Martin
This is an interesting tactic. Not sure what to make of it, but BART is shut down at both the Oakland and SF protests. The Oakland people are moving (seemingly randomly as it appears) and the police are shutting down stations as they go. Worried that one group will join the other?
And the general strike call was for the 2nd – wed, not sat.
Calouste
@Spaghetti Lee:
The celebration is that his plot failed and he got executed, not the man himself. Guy Fawkes (and other unpopular figures) is burned in effigy at the bonfires that night.
Spaghetti Lee
@Calouste:
Ah, didn’t know that actually.
MeDrewNotYou
@Spaghetti Lee: From what I understand, pretty much. But ever since V For Vendetta, plenty of people associate him with overthrowing a corrupt ruling group. I know Brits think of it quite differently, but most Americans had probably never heard of Guy Fawkes Day until the movie (maybe a few nerds learned from the graphic novel).
ETA-If you haven’t seen the movie, you should. One of the best movies from the past decade. And Natalie Portman! (She can pull off being bald and still look hot.)
Suffern ACE
@AA+ Bonds: What a pig of a little man. Seriously. Events that aren’t happening must stop or else! Bet he’s bad at finding truffles.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Violet:
How many people does Occupy Oakland speak for? Pretty much by definition, the ones that were already camping out aren’t going to have much of an effect as general strikers. How many people who have jobs are going to walk off of them, without the protection of collective bargaining? If the answer isn’t a significant portion of the population, this backfires. Is it just supposed to be for one day?
As Linneaus said, strikes need to have actual goals. Otherwise they have the perception of being failures at whatever point they end. A general strike isn’t a protest. It’s a much more complex action.
Did people underestimate OWS at first? Absolutely. Ther movement proved them wrong by slowly gaining strength over the course of a month, not by calling for a major action that they hadn’t actually planned for. Given the extent to which the OWS movement has actively shunned organizing, I don’t see any way that they pull this off.
AA+ Bonds
@Spaghetti Lee:
@Suffern ACE:
Wow here’s an analysis of the actual numbers that Sirota linked up:
and
AA+ Bonds
@Spaghetti Lee:
@Suffern ACE:
Wow here’s an analysis of the actual numbers that Sirota linked up:
and
AA+ Bonds
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
I hope you plan on going out there and helping them fix this then, Lord have mercy, after seeing those response numbers I just posted where they all agree with you and not the Marxists
This shouldn’t be hard to understand. If this were the Marxists or the anarchists behind all of this, THEY COULDN’T POSSIBLY DO THIS or THEY WOULD HAVE DONE IT ALREADY. OWS is the American mainstream expressing opinions it’s held for years.
I understand that liberals have an aversion but you might talk to your local leftists about their motivations and what they realistically hope to accomplish here
Violet
@Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN):
I don’t know the answers to your questions. I’m not there. I’m only following it on Twitter. I get the impression it’s a one day strike, which sounds more like a protest/march than a real strike, although it’s a Wednesday so many people would have to take time off work to participate.
I agree there are a host of problems with turning it into anything, but I guess we’ll see how it turns out.
AA+ Bonds
I still can’t get over the Teamsters approvingly calling anti-Sotheby’s barnstormers “Merry Pranksters.”
Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have a left on our hands.
AA+ Bonds
Current Fox Nation “GOTCHA LIBERALS!” video: Peter Schiff brags to a bunch of OWSers that he employs 150 people. Now that is something that ordinary Americans can relate to!
Especially the name of his company: Euro-Pacific Capital Inc.
Martin
Midnight. Looks likes SF might get some action. Lots of shots of buses full of police, but no riot gear. At least one state senator at the protest, so I doubt it’ll be anything terribly impolite.
Stillwater
This is Doug’s blog. Doug-pocalypse Now. Balloon DougJuice.
I don’t even know why we pretend otherwise.
AA+ Bonds
@Martin:
The chair-warming brass will certainly order the tear gassing of a state legislator when it moves them, if that’s what you mean.
They’ve probably been waiting for an excuse.
AA+ Bonds
Here is another thing about the Fox News hardcore: they are probably the only people on Earth, right or left, who you can instantly win over with a populist opinion piece in favor of cripplingly large student debt, I count three right now on FoxNation
I assume that this is like how a lot of them think that what America needs right now to spur consumer confidence is a whole bunch of crazy jacked up taxes on things that middle class people buy at the store
Uriel
@Spaghetti Lee:@MeDrewNotYou:
And here I thought the big hullabaloo was because it was my birthday.
You people take the fun out of everything.
Samara Morgan
@AA+ Bonds: college mortages are the new subprimes.
its just the “freed” market in action.
arguingwithsignposts
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
The Greeks would like a word with all of you who think it has to work this way.
HeartlandLiberal
For those of you who don’t get the reference / allusion in the title of this post:
Lillian Smith’s ‘Strange Fruit’ Novel 1944
The rather frequent habit of lynching blacks by hanging them to the nearest convenient tree was the underlying reference.
“Strange Fruit”: the story of a song
arguingwithsignposts
@HeartlandLiberal: I’d never heard of the book, just figured it was a nod to Billie Holliday.
gelfling545
I have a connection by marriage who worked in collections although he has since gone on to honest work. If you have any vestige of conscience it is not a job you can do for long. He made an astounding amount of money in his early 20s (paid off his student loans in 5 years)by using tactics just short of these. From him I learned that the companies tell their new hires that they will of course use only legal methods and heavily reward the employees who, by using the most appalling tactics, are able to get the money in. If you use only legal collection methods you can bet that your career will be short & not very profitable. When a lawsuit finally comes in because of illegal tactics they sacrifice one employee who usually moves along to another, maybe even related, collection firm in the area quite easily due to his “excellent reputation”. Being willing to use these methods is considered a high recommendation, not a problem.
Omnes Omnibus
@Calouste:
@MeDrewNotYou: There is a fairly good book on Fawkes and the Gunpowder Plot from about 15 years ago: Faith and Treason by Antonia Fraser. It is quite sympathetic to the plotters, but it is also pretty comprehensive. If you are interested, it is worth a look.
Nemesis
@suzanne: Do you remember the erectile disfunction commercials starring “Tom”?
I worked for that company the grand total of 5 days.
The scheme in play was called “slamming”, where the caller was provided a “free” 30 day supply of Enzyte, just pay the $4.95 shipping and handling with…wait for it… a credit card. No cash or checks were accepted. When the credit card number was provided, and after the 30 day trail expired,the company sent you a 90 day supply of the pills and billed your credit card almost $100.
I idea was that men would be too ashamed to call back demanding a refund, since they were impotent and all. But call back they did.
Everyone working at this company knew exactly what the scam was and apparently had no problem coming into work each day and stealing money from anyone who dared call into the call center. One gal made $77K in one year selling this crap and screwing over anyone who called her.
The answer is people in this country will do just about anything for an easy buck. Especially when doing telephone work. The wounded party isnt real to the slammers. Just a voice on the phone.
But threatening to kill someone over a tardy payment is a different level entirely.
The Other Bob
The thing is, the cowards collecting would not threaten someone with confidence. If they called someone who turned around and said the following, they would be less likley to do it again.
“Oh yeah? Dig up the dead? kill my dog? Come and get me asshole, I will be here with my shot gun waiting. In fact, I am coming to your headquarters now and we can handle this in person. I know my rights, I have a lawyer too”
Instead they go after distraught, little old ladies.
El Cid
That seems like an awfully great deal of work for a collections company to go through.
I imagine your employees at the call center would really pass on the chore of digging up rotting bodies, carrying them around, and then figuring out how to hang them somewhere.
That last part alone is pretty difficult. How do we keep the body together? Do we put it in a big clear plastic bag or something? Or do we want it to have the look of a body still together? What do we hang it from? Do we just want it visible by the victim? Couldn’t we do just a hand, or a foot, or the skull? What about diseases we might be exposed to from the rotting body? Do we have to use our own cars, or is the company going to rent us a vehicle and have it cleaned? Or do we have our own fleet of rotting flesh-transporting vehicles?
sherparick
You might be thinking of “Repo Man.” The rotting bodies were rotting space aliens. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repo_Man_(film)
And there was a Law and Order: Criminal Intent episode about an undertaker dumping bodies as opposed to properly cremating them.