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Shark sandwich

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This is my second Israel-related post of the day. It’s not my favorite topic, because the rhetoric gets so over the top (not here, I mean in general, and I mean over-the-top even by my standards), but sometimes it goes so far that I just can’t help but be amused. Here’s something Washington Post conservative blogger Jennifer Rubin retweeted:

GILAD!!! He’s free and he’s home in the bosom of his family and his country. Celebrate, Israel, with all the joyous gratitude that fills your hearts, as we all do along with you.

Then round up his captors, the slaughtering, death-worshiping, innocent-butchering, child-sacrificing savages who dip their hands in blood and use women — those who aren’t strapping bombs to their own devils’ spawn and sending them out to meet their seventy-two virgins by taking the lives of the school-bus-riding, heart-drawing, Transformer-doodling, homework-losing children of Others — and their offspring — those who haven’t already been pimped out by their mothers to the murder god — as shields, hiding behind their burkas and cradles like the unmanned animals they are, and throw them not into your prisons, where they can bide until they’re traded by the thousands for another child of Israel, but into the sea, to float there, food for sharks, stargazers, and whatever other oceanic carnivores God has put there for the purpose.

Edgy stuff.

Reader Interactions

147Comments

  1. 1.

    Mass

    Freed. After negotiating with ‘terrorists,’ which Israel never does. Funny how that works out. Did Israel give the terrorists weapons? Like Ronald Reagan gave Iran weapons for hostages?

  2. 2.

    Chris

    Whoever said the right wing wasn’t in love with death and violence was lying, IMHO. The only thing more disturbing than that column is the number of her readers who jerked off to it.

  3. 3.

    Spaghetti Lee

    Hiring Jennifer Rubin to write about the middle east is like hiring David Duke to write about Africa. A lot of the WaPooped writers are smarmy careerists, conventional-wisdom groupies, whatever. Rubin, from what I’ve seen, is a full-on lunatic. Violently insane.

  4. 4.

    Steve

    I think Israel would probably round up Gilad Shalit’s captors quite happily if they could. In fact, I think they would have gladly done that while he was still captured, thus sparing themselves the trouble of ransoming him. And I sorta doubt they’d all be given cushy accommodations at Club Mem.

    So I’m not sure I see the point of this drooling revenge fantasy. Except, oh wait, do you suppose it’s not really about the specific individuals who captured Gilad Shalit? Do you think it’s maybe just about “them” in general, if you know what I mean? Nah. That would be uncivilized.

  6. 6.

    Quarks

    Stargazers?

    Is there a group of murderous pirate astronomers roaming the oceans and the seven seas, or am I completely missing something?

  9. 9.

    mikefromArlington

    I usually don’t like to be shallow but I saw Rubin for the first time on Hardball. Is there something wrong with her or what? It’s really distracting to the point I couldn’t even listen to what she was saying.

  12. 12.

    eemom

    the rhetoric gets so over the top

    there’s something about starting at the bottom and getting over the top that needs to be said here, but I can’t quite put my finger on it.

    You know, if you actually WANTED to have a rational, non-over-the-top discussion of the issue, you would start with someone other than that Krauthammer with boobs.

  13. 13.

    Chris

    @Mass:

    Insofar as the “Iran” part of Iran-contra went in large part through Israel, yes. Then there’s the fact that they supported the rise of Hamas for years as a counterweight to Arafat’s PLO. Oh yeah, they’re at least as dirty as we are when it comes to terrorist connections.

  19. 19.

    Samara Morgan

    i bet not many people here know how the Summer War started. The germans were trying to broker an exchange for lebanese prisoners (including Sameer Kuntar and some druze) between Hizb’ and Israel. There werent many…maybe 7 total.
    The negotiations broke down over Kuntar, a real baddie.
    So Hizb’ snatched a couple Israeli soljahs to restart the negotiations.
    And the Israelis went to war, with Bush’s approval.
    After the war was over, Hizb’ was stronger than ever, more Lebanese hated the US and Israel, and Hizb’ got Kuntar and the other leb prisoners.
    The Israelis got two bodies.
    Hope it was worth it for them.

  22. 22.

    beltane

    It is cause for great sorrow that some of the most loathsome humans on the planet happen to write for American media outlets.

  24. 24.

    DougJ

    @eemom:

    Don’t you agree that is strange that some of the most prominent (Kraut, for example is everywhere, on tv, in papers) voices on this issue are so, not just nuts, but so extreme in how they talk about it? I can’t think of any other issue that is like this. I find it depressing.

  28. 28.

    Chris

    @DougJ:

    Because support for Israel is so unanimous across the political spectrum that they know they can say that shit and get away with it with absolutely no consequences.

    IMO, it’s literally more acceptable in Washington to criticize our own behavior in Iraq and Afghanistan than it is to criticize Israel’s in Lebanon and Palestine’s.

  31. 31.

    DougJ

    @eemom:

    You’d have to be nuts to say anti-Semitism wasn’t a big part of British and continental European political discussion.

  33. 33.

    eemom

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    almost never. But I get the WaPo dead-tree edition, so I will sometimes peek at a column — as one watches a horror movie — through my fingers with both hands over my eyes, ready to dive under my chair when some ghastly horror leaps snarling out at me.

    And it DOES rarely…..very, VERY rarely…..pay off. For example, a couple of weeks ago he had a column about the republican clown parade which was so rife with truthful observations about their various clowneries, and — in my impression at least — so implicit with utter despair over his party’s prospects for next year, that it just like totally made my day. : )

  36. 36.

    Samara Morgan

    @DougJ: the state of Israel is pure distillate of euro-guilt.
    But youth, blacks and browns don’t feel it.
    When the demographic timer goes off we are gunna kick J-street to the kerb.
    :)
    Johan Galtung says that America is so invested in Israel because americans took over the mantle of “the chosen people” from them…that is what that judeo-xian nation bulshytt is all about.

  37. 37.

    clayton

    I’m so sick of Israel. It’s one of those things that started before I was born and continues on. I’ve always hoped that it would end, much like the soviet union.

    They have nukes but won’t subscribe to the nonproliferation treaty.

    They supported apartheid in South Africa long after it was dead.

    They practice apartheid in their own freaking country.

    Israel is a pariah state and should be shoved off into the the sea. It kills children, unarmed people and smashes down their homes and uproots their fruit trees. It kill and imprisons people for the VERY SAME THING THEIR HEROS DID.

    Fuck Israel and their hurt “feelings.”

  40. 40.

    eemom

    @DougJ:

    Will you admit that when the term comes up HERE it is almost invariably used in the mocking context I alluded to above?

  42. 42.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @eemom: I would advise him to follow the “admit nothing, deny everything, and make counter-accusations” strategy.

  43. 43.

    Villago Delenda Est

    Change a few words here and there, and you’ve captured the gestalt of Julius Streicher.

    Nietzsche was right about fighting monsters. Jennifer Rubin is proof of it.

  47. 47.

    DougJ

    @eemom:

    I think that ADL should not have allowed itself to become (too often) a mouthpiece for the right. I think David Brooks and other neocons shouldn’t claim that OWS is anti-Semitic.

    There is anti-Semitism in the US, don’t get me wrong, but there is not enough to justify the near-constant right-wing boys crying wolf about it. If you want to get mad at someone here, get mad at Abe Foxman and David Brooks. They took a real (but not overwhelmingly omnipresent) issue and made it into a joke.

  49. 49.

    eemom

    @DougJ:

    I have no more patience than you do with scumbags like Brooks, and most ESPECIALLY not with scumbags who use that accusation — among many, many others — to smear my beloved OWS protesters. Hell, even Richard Cohen came out against that.

    But neither do I have any patience with the many people here and elsewhere in the left blogosphere who use the behavior of THOSE scumbags to dismiss the issue of anti-Semitism entirely, and as a convenient excuse to launch into despicable tirades about how Israel is JUST LIKE THE NAZIS. Which happened again here this morning.

  50. 50.

    clayton

    @eemom: Why? Because it refutes the fact that Israel has nukes? Or that they prosecute their own for speaking about their program?

    Or will it tell me that the Israelis didn’t target a school? Or that they don’t purposefully demolish people’s property?

    What will it tell me defender of the apartheid indefensible?

  51. 51.

    The Other Chuck

    Edgy? This is an overt call for genocide. This is Radio Rwanda stuff. This is UNACCEPTABLE.

    Every remaining reporter at WaPo with even the slightest sense of ethics needs to quit. Now.

  52. 52.

    clayton

    @eemom: Israel is just like the South Africans. An apartheid government that they supported and tried to sell nuclear weapons technologies to.

    Or did you not know that?

  54. 54.

    DougJ

    @eemom:

    I think Israel’s government often deserves a lot of criticism. If people call Scott Walker a Nazi, then why shouldn’t they call Netanyahu a Nazi too?

    I’m not a fan of calling people Nazis, but it’s not like Likudists are the only people who ever get called Nazis on this blog.

  55. 55.

    BobS

    @eemom: It would have been hard to find a more perfect example of an “Israel apologist”. Thanks for that- I’ll be using it as a reference.

  57. 57.

    DougJ

    There is one thing I think is important here. Israel is not a monolith, I think it’s better to criticize individual Israeli parties or leaders than to talk about Israel as a single entity.

  58. 58.

    eemom

    @BobS:

    Do you even know who Richard Goldstone IS?

    @clayton:

    Sure. Sure I do. That’s why you’re scared shitless to actually read the article, lest it reveal what an utter ignorant bigot you are.

  60. 60.

    Steve

    @DougJ: Would you agree there’s a certain something extra on the table when the Nazi label is deployed against the principal victims of the Nazis? Honestly, the whole trope is so overplayed at this point that it just bores me. There are lots of legitimate criticisms you can make regarding Israel and its government, but when people try to literally equate Israeli society with South African apartheid it’s like an automatic signal not to take them seriously.

    Unfortunately on the liberal blogs you sometimes find two people of that ilk who stumble into one another and then you get a whole self-congratulatory conversation about how Israel is the worst regime in history. There used to be a lot of diaries on Daily Kos like that.

  61. 61.

    clayton

    Israel has nukes. They have for a long time. They have prosecuted their own citizens for talking about their nuke program. They refuse to participate in the controls that every other civilized country does wrt nukes. They are a rogue state.

    Israel partitions their citizens and differentiates them according to their own peculiar standards. They build walls and tear up others’ property.

    eemom, as an American, how can you abide that?

    Lastly, this whole thing with Israel produces people who feel free to call Obama a nigger. You stand with them?

    I don’t.

    Run them all off into the sea. Israelis want to exterminate the Arabs. They kill their children, kill their supporters and kill their neighbors and have for QUITE SOME TIME. Stand with them. Fine

    I won’t.

    And don’t forget who they learned apartheid from.

  62. 62.

    BobS

    @eemom: Yes, I DO! And it appears he’s working feverishly to atone for his tepid criticism of Israel after it’s rampage in Gaza.

  63. 63.

    clayton

    @eemom: I DON’T CARE WHAT YOU CAN’T BRING YOURSELF TO SAY.

    Say it. Don’t send me to some link.

    I’ve said my peace.

    Israel supported South Africa. Israel is practicing apartheid. Israel has nukes. Israel prosecutes their own citizens for saying they have nukes.

    Israeli Americans call Obama a nigger.

    What other proof do you want?

  65. 65.

    clayton

    @eemom: You should be apologizing for your fellow travelers, not attacking others.

    It’s as if you don’t even know what BIG things Obama stands for, nor what he supported when he was younger.

    What is up with you?

    And why the childish name calling? Is there anything I have said that isn’t true?

  66. 66.

    Djur

    @Steve: The problem is that excessive or insensitive criticism of Israel (which I agree exists and is a problem) is automatically upgraded to “antisemitism” regardless of context. I wouldn’t call Netanyahu a Nazi, or refer to Israel as an apartheid state, or say that “Israel” has an undue influence in America, or use ‘Zionist’ except in the precise sense of the term. However, I don’t think everyone who does those things is an antisemite. People say overheated, insane shit about China, Russia, the US, etc. all the time. Hell, on this and other liberal blogs I regularly read that China basically owns the United States, which is an absurd overstatement. I don’t automatically connect that sentiment to yellow panic, though.

    ETA: clayton is a hysterical windbag.

  67. 67.

    Steve

    Italy fought on the wrong side in WWII. They supported the Nazis. They prosecute innocent American college girls, cute ones, and send them to jail.

    They support a Prime Minister who is so inappropriate, he nearly makes Herman Cain look tame.

    And Italian Americans call Obama a nigger. Lots of them! I have heard it.

    What more do you need to know? Let the Adriatic wash them away. I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR YOU SAY OTHERWISE.

  68. 68.

    Samara Morgan

    @eemom: they are just like the Nazis.
    they are making war on children in Gaza just like the Nazis made war on children in the Warsaw ghettos.
    This is obvious to sapients.

  69. 69.

    DougJ

    @Steve:

    I see your point, but at the same time, the most eliminationist stuff that I read anywhere is from people like Rubin and sometimes Marty Peretz. I don’t use the word Nazi myself but if people are going to use it, it’s hard to think of something that better deserves the label than some of what I read from the Likudist right.

    EDIT: And you’re right that “let the sea wash them away” was taking it too far.

  71. 71.

    clayton

    @Djur: Israel is an apartheid state. It bases its citizenship on particular qualities and discriminates its citizens based upon inherited qualities.

    Then it builds walls and bulldozes olive trees and such.

    But stay in you fantasy world of Israel being a cool place :)

  72. 72.

    clayton

    @Steve:

    Lots of them! I have heard it.

    Prove it. There is proof for my statements.

    I see that you didn’t touch the nuke part.

    Try again.

  74. 74.

    El Cid

    It’s a lot more civilized when you’re dropping phosphor bombs on kids and blowing apart hundreds of innocent people in Gaza, making sure to get it in just before Obama’s inauguration, because, after all, you had a bunch of soldiers announce to people that they evacuate their houses before they were blown up.

  75. 75.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @DougJ: Consider the source. 1:99 signal to noise ratio. I’ll admit the 1% can be interesting and she made the call quite early on OWS, but you can’t be surprised to find an insane opinion or 300 from coming off of her keyboard.

  77. 77.

    eemom

    @clayton:

    Israeli Americans call Obama a nigger.

    It’s really just out of curiosity at this point, but what are “Israeli Americans”?

    Would that be American Jews? Oh.

    And you’ve heard “Israeli Americans” call Obama a “nigger” where, again?

  78. 78.

    clayton

    @DougJ: Ya think?

    Tell me where I am over doing it:

    Israel has nukes.

    Is that it?

    Israel is not a part of any nuclear treaty.

    Is that it?

    Israel prosecutes its own citizens for stating that they have a nuclear program.

    Is that it?

    Israel has built walls around its nation.

    Is that it?

    Israel has bulldozed property and olive trees out of spite.

    Is that it?

    Israel discriminates between its citizens.

    Is that it?

  80. 80.

    clayton

    @eemom: I guess you don’t remember that certain people can have dual citizenship.

    And I guess you don’t know who Max Blumenthal is and never saw his video.

    I can’t link to his video because:

    In 2009, Max Blumenthal posted a short video on YouTube titled “Feeling the Hate in Jerusalem on the Eve of Obama’s Cairo Address”.[2] The video was a montage of footage of drunken Jewish-American youth in Jerusalem in June 2009, shortly before Obama’s Cairo address. The youths used expletives and racist rhetoric about Barack Obama and Arabs, which included referring to Obama as a “nigger” and suggesting that he is “like a terrorist”.[17] According to The Jerusalem Post, the video “garnered massive exposure and caused a firestorm in the media and the Jewish world.”[18] Haaretz described the video as “an overnight Internet sensation”.[17]
    Blumenthal has claimed that the video was “banned” from YouTube, Vimeo and the Huffington Post.[19] The Jewish Telegraphic Agency quoted Blumenthal as stating, “I won’t ascribe motives to Youtube I am unable to confirm, but it is clear there is an active campaign by right-wing Jewish elements to suppress the video by filing a flood of complaints with Youtube.”[20] YouTube said that company policy forbids comment on individual videos, while asserting that its policies are applied “uniformly and not as the result of external pressure.”[20]
    Blumenthal has claimed that he faced death threats for his publication of the video.[21] He identifies the radicalism of the interviewees with the “indoctrination” of Birthright Israel tours, a program in which several of the interviewees were participating.[21] The filmmaker, himself Jewish, had participated in a Birthright tour in 2002.[21]

  81. 81.

    eemom

    @DougJ:

    I don’t use the word Nazi myself but if people are going to use it, it’s hard to think of something that better deserves the label than some of what I read from the Likudist right.

    Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with some information about North Korean concentration camps. Or that child-killer in Uganda.

  82. 82.

    Steve

    Doug, no question people like Peretz are the worst. But the Nazi rhetoric is not exactly finely calibrated. If they were just calling, say, Avigdor Lieberman a Nazi, I would agree that’s just standard overheated rhetoric.

    Closer to home, what do you make of someone who deems it significant that some Israeli-Americans use racial slurs about Obama, as if this tells us something about all of them? Are your anti-semitism detectors going off a little bit?

  84. 84.

    DougJ

    This is why I hate this issue. You’ve got one group talking about feeding people to sharks and stargazers, another group calling everyone in sight Nazis.

  87. 87.

    clayton

    @DougJ: I never called anyone a Nazi.

    I did in fact connect Israelis to South African apartheid, which is a well known fact.

    It’s where they learned it, Doug.

  89. 89.

    DougJ

    @Steve:

    Mostly I think that’s just stupid. If had had them dropping n-bombs while making high-interest loans or suing people or drinking the blood Christian children, then it would set off more bells.

  90. 90.

    deep cap

    …and if you point out the flaws in either side’s arguments, they label you as one of “them.”

    Same goes for the abortion debates.

  91. 91.

    eemom

    @DougJ:

    For that matter, I’d be interested in some links to where even the fucking Likud advocates Nazi-esque genocide. Or ANY genocide — in the real meaning of that term, not the bullshit one tossed around by ignorant twits like toko-loko.

    Or make it easy on yourself. How about a Likud link that even approaches the mission statement of Hamas?

  95. 95.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Samara Morgan: It is exactly in context. You made that comment. DougJ objected, calling it insane. You said you never made the comment. I quoted the exact words and linked to the comment. Anyone can follow the chain of links. This now one of the points where I call you out again for intellectual dishonesty. Have a nice evening.

  97. 97.

    clayton

    @deep cap: So you think it’s ok for Israel to have nukes and not submit to the regimes that other nuclear powers do? That’s ok? It’s just like the abortion argument? How? Please explain.

  98. 98.

    eemom

    @DougJ:

    I’m not in either of those groups.

    I just hate lies, mindless morons spewing simplistic shit about incredibly complex realities, and bigotry in the guise of humanitarianism.

    ETA: At this point however, I do see that your mild-mannered, well-meaning self is being attacked from all sides, so I shall subside. : )

  103. 103.

    DougJ

    @eemom:

    The post I quoted is a pretty good example. It sounds an awful lot like it’s calling for genocide against Palestinians.

    And get back to me when the Washington Post starts employing explicitly pro-Hamas columnists and bloggers.

  104. 104.

    BobS

    @clayton: Second class citizenship was not unique to South Africa. There are just as many parallels to the Jim Crow south, at least inside Israel- give credit where credit is due. It’s with the creation of virtual Bantustans in the illegally occupied West Bank where we see more similarity to apartheid South Africa (“Israel apologist” Judge Goldstone notwithstanding).

  105. 105.

    Steve

    @DougJ: Well look, I hate bogus accusations of anti-semitism as much as anyone. I am with you on Abe Foxman (although he is not all bad). But do the thought experiment with me. Imagine if there was a video of Mexican-American kids acting racist, and someone said see, that’s evidence of how sick Mexican culture is. Wouldn’t you kind of catch a whiff of racism there? If you’re not convinced yet, imagine it’s Pat Buchanan saying these things. :)

  106. 106.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Samara Morgan: Not the issue. You said something. You were called out on it. You denied that you said it. I also doubt that you know enough history to know what happened in Warsaw other than the minimal facts necessary to make a facile comparison. Note also, I am not defending any Israeli actions here. I am objecting to your dishonest argumentation.

  107. 107.

    Viva BrisVegas

    @Steve:

    Would you agree there’s a certain something extra on the table when the Nazi label is deployed against the principal victims of the Nazis?

    I hesitate to say this for fear of cast into the outer darkness, but the principal victims of the Nazis were people.

    Nazi propaganda was at least as virulent against gays and communists as it was against Jews. Plans to exterminate the entire Polish Slavic population actually preceded similar plans for Jews, but were only intermittently carried out for logistical reasons. In terms of numbers far more Soviet civilians were kiled by Nazis than Jews. In terms of percentages, more of the Gypsy population was murdered by Nazis than Jews.

    Which is not to say that Jews did not suffer horribly, but that others did too. Both as individuals and as peoples.

    Calling one group or another “principal victims of the Nazis” tends to obscure the scale and the breadth of the crimes the Nazis committed and makes it too easy to overlook the suffering of less prominent people.

    So I guess what I’m trying to say is that while Jews are completely entitled to Shoah, the Holocaust belongs to us all.

  108. 108.

    eemom

    @DougJ:

    Jennifer Rubin represents the Likud?

    Oh I forgot. They’re ALL the SAME.

    That is some disingenuous shit you’re doing there –morphing the Likud into the Washington Post.

    Oh I forgot — they’re ALL the SAME.

  109. 109.

    clayton

    @BobS: Thanks for the more detailed reply.

    I was trying to get at the point that Israel is following a flawed plan i.e. the South African one.

    Basing your politics on things people cannot control is pretty much obsolete, but Israel is determined to base its politics on religion.

    But thanks again for the reply.

  111. 111.

    clayton

    @eemom: You will never ever ever answer why it is that you can support a state that discriminates its people.

    Do you know that Arabs are second class citizens in you glorious Israel?

    And you are an American?

  114. 114.

    Bullsmith

    “hiding behind their burkas and cradles like the unmanned animals they are”

    Seriously? How is that a defensible statement?

  115. 115.

    DougJ

    @eemom:

    Just Rubin and Diehl and maybe Krauthammer (I don’t actually read him, so I am not sure). Is that even a controversial statement?

    EDIT: Apparently, Diehl writes a lot of the unsigned editorials on foreign policy so I think it is fair to say that the unsigned editorials on foreign policy represent far right Israeli positions. That’s his perspective, the same as George Will’s or Gerson’s is a far right Republican perspective. I don’t see how that ruffles any feathers.

  116. 116.

    eemom

    @clayton:

    I’ll answer that just as soon as you acknowledge that a South African judge knows what the fuck he’s talking about when it comes to apartheid — unlike you. And read the fucking article.

    What’s that? Judge Goldstone is “working feverishly” to “atone for his tepid criticism” of Israel’s actions in the Gaza war?

    And why is that? Oh dear — I suppose the Gestapo/Mossad must have gotten to him.

  117. 117.

    miwome

    Every once in a while, as somebody whose career focus is on the Middle East, it’s a relief to see somebody come out and say it so spectacularly. It lets you know you’re not crazy, and they really are completely unhinged and–at least in this case–bigoted.

  118. 118.

    Samara Morgan

    @Omnes Omnibus: again, context. im officially on record as being against starving children to get your way.
    :)
    the nazis did it, the israelis are doing it.
    the goals might differ, but the means are the same.
    @BobS: ekshually, that is why the Israelis want to formally establish a “jewish” state. they will expell 1.5 million arabs the minute they get to be a jewish state.
    which is why the Palestinians object to recognizing a “jewish” state.

  119. 119.

    eemom

    @DougJ:

    You are willfully missing the point.

    You said that if anything deserves the “Nazi” label, what you’ve read from the Likud does. As examples you cited Washington Post columnists. That is patently ridiculous — unless you ARE, in fact, suggesting that the Likud controls the Washington Post. And if you are — well, then, we’re in Protocols of the Elders territory, and I am done.

  121. 121.

    DougJ

    @eemom:

    I see what you’re saying. Let me rephrase — I read a lot of Nazieqsue stuff from American supporters of the Israeli right, and these supporters of the Israeli right sometimes have surprisingly (given how unhinged they are) high-profile positions at TNR and the Washington Post.

  122. 122.

    clayton

    @eemom: Sweetie, I’m not going to read your link. I don’t know how to tell you this, but Israel has the bomb, and they wanted to give it to South Africa. You remember the Cold War don’t you little sweetheart? You are supporting a nuclear state that feels fit to NOT abide by the rules and FOR EXTRA POINTS decided that it might be a good idea to sell, I said sell, it’s knowledge to the APARTHEID regime in South Africa.

    I don’t like that and I didn’t when it happened.

    Which way to do swing, sweetheart?

  123. 123.

    DougJ

    @Viva BrisVegas:

    You know, I’m not so crazy about that way of looking at things. Eastern European Jews were subject to perhaps the most horrific genocide in human history. I don’t think that “belongs to everyone”, I think it is a part of their descendants’ cultural legacy.

  124. 124.

    BobS

    @eemom: Were YOU even AWARE of the events surrounding THE Goldstone Report and THE subsequent controversy when HE blindsided his co-authors (who continue to ENDORSE the original report) with an article in THE Washington Post? (I’m new to speaking HYSTERICAL- I hope I did ok).

  125. 125.

    clayton

    @BobS: eemom doesn’t seem to understand something so simple. Also too she probably won’t click on my link nor has she been to any places like I or you have, but hey! she’s the Israeli state official her on this thread.

    sigh

  126. 126.

    Steve

    Wow, it’s so unthinkable that a country with nuclear weapons could refuse to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty! That’s like a one-way ticket to pariah state status! Surely no decent person could ever support dealings with such a rogue state. For example, India.

  127. 127.

    NobodySpecial

    @DougJ: Avigdor Lieberman is instructive.

    In remarks in the Knesset in March 2008, shortly after the 6 March attack at Jerusalem’s Mercaz HaRav yeshiva, Lieberman commented that “yesterday’s attack can not be disconnected from the Arab MKs incitement, which we hear daily in the Knesset.”[80] Directing his comments at Arab MKs whose comments Lieberman describes as anti-Israel incitement, he added that “a new administration will be established and then we will take care of you.”[81]

    But no, no Likudnik would ever go Godwin.

  128. 128.

    Viva BrisVegas

    @DougJ:

    You know, I’m not so crazy about that way of looking at things. Eastern European Jews were subject to perhaps the most horrific genocide in human history. I don’t think that “belongs to everyone”, I think it is a part of their descendants’ cultural legacy.

    That’s an example of what I mean. Why the most horrific? There was plenty of Nazi horror to go around. How was the experience of Eastern European Jews worse than that of Eastern European Gypsies? (Yes I know, Roma.)

    Anyway as I said, Shoah belongs to Jews, but it is a part of the Holocaust not the whole of it. I think a lot of people lose sight of that. Sometimes even Jews, which is a pity.

  129. 129.

    Roy G.

    Yes, Godwin’s Law gets hit like a piñata on this topic. But. Look at Gaza and try to differentiate it from the Warsaw Ghetto. There are many that can look back through time and wonder why the rest of the world allowed the Jews to be treated thus, and be perfectly oblivious to the fact that right this minute Palestinians everywhere can say the same thing. Israel even killed an American citizen aboard the Mavi Mamara when they tried to break the embargo and deliver humanitarian aid. The Jews then were demonized and turned into üntermenschen by the Nazis, the Palestinians of today are demonized and turned into üntermenschen by the Ziocons. This isn’t an action by all Jews, but by fascist religious nationalist colonials waving the Israeli flag and carrying a Torah. You don’t want to be called a Nazi? Then don’t act like one.

    Good moderate Jews need to denounce this fascism, because it is . And many do. And more need to, because Bibi and his fellow travelers are the ones taking down Israel.

    ps. golf clap for eeemom for going Godwin one better and bringing up the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the dogeared trump card in the wah-wah anti-semetic playbook. It’s over. We know it’s a fake… unlike A Clean Break.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break:_A_New_Strategy_for_Securing_the_Realm

  130. 130.

    Marc

    For the love of God, just shut this thread down. No good will emerge from this. If you’re not going to moderate threads there’s no point in Israel/Palestine discussions. This is just two people arguing with each other, mixed with the occasional onlooker…

  131. 131.

    karen marie

    @eemom: I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone here (well …) who would argue that antisemitism doesn’t exist, but that doesn’t excuse the Israelis when they act like thugs.

    @eemom: I won’t.

  132. 132.

    mclaren

    This sounds like a rousing call to action for America’s pro-business freedom-loving…

    Oh.

    Wait.

    You mean this isn’t the Republican presidential campaign platform…?

    Okay, never mind.

  133. 133.

    Ian

    @eemom:
    From the article you linked

    The situation in the West Bank is more complex. But here too there is no intent to maintain “an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group.”

    Really? This is your defense of Israel being an equal participant democracy? And those Arab groups it identifies as being part of Israel? Do they agree with your critique?

  134. 134.

    Keith G

    @eemom

    I’ll answer that just as soon as you acknowledge that a South African judge knows what the fuck he’s talking about when it comes to apartheid—unlike you.

    Allow me to rewrite:

    I’ll answer that just as soon as you acknowledge that a Southern lawyer/governor knows what the fuck he’s talking about when it comes to civil rights in Mississippi.

    Haley Barbour thanks you for your support.

  135. 135.

    Samara Morgan

    @Marc: no you are wrong. this thread couldnt have happened say….in 2006 during the Summer War….it probably couldnt have happened before the Arab Spring.
    I think a lot of Americans are gradually becoming aware of the unholy and destructive alliance between Israel and the US.
    The Arab Spring is scraping the veneer off Pax Americana, and underneath there is a lot of suppressed hatred of Israel bubbling to the surface.
    Nine activists were killed aboard the Mavi Marmara–one an american citizen.
    Israel has been a rogue state in the ME with its actions supported unconditionally by the US.
    But as American power declines in MENA, the Israelis are becoming increasingly paranoid and psychotic.
    In order to distract from the Palestinian statehood initiative Israel is fanning the the anti-Iranian flames. They could launch on Iran just to start WWIII.

  136. 136.

    Samara Morgan

    The other problem is the demographic timer.
    Youth voters, black and brown voters dont care about the holocaust.
    Gaza is more relevant to them than the six days war.
    Only older white christian americans still feel holocaust guilt.
    the Israelis know this.
    They may feel they need to run up the holocaust guilt card before the next generation of American voters cuts it up in their faces.

  137. 137.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Keith G:

    I’ll answer that just as soon as you acknowledge that a Southern lawyer/governor knows what the fuck he’s talking about when it comes to civil rights in Mississippi.

    Morris Dees would like to have a word with you.

  138. 138.

    Larv

    @Quarks:

    Stargazers?

    Is there a group of murderous pirate astronomers roaming the oceans and the seven seas, or am I completely missing something?

    I think the stargazers thing must be a translation error. It probably makes more sense in the original German.

  140. 140.

    Larv

    @Larv:

    Doh! Blockquote fail. That first para should also be blockquoted.

    Also, in reading the thread I see that the whole Nazi thing has already been done to death. FTR, I don’t think the Israelis are Nazis or anything like, but I do think the stuff quoted in the OP is straying way too close to eliminationist rhetoric for comfort.

  142. 142.

    Samara Morgan

    @Larv: thing is, either Pam Geller or Anders Breivik (Utoya massacre) could have written that.
    Its the counter-jihaadi movement, live and well among american movement conservatives and white christian nativists everywhere.
    That is my point about the Israelis….becoming your enemy to beat him is a very bad proposition.
    Starving children for political advantage is what the Nazis did in Warsaw.
    Is that who the Israelis want to be?

    it seems like eemom is arguing that the Israelis have some sort of right to blockade Gaza and starve Palestinian kids, because they are treated badly and because of the holocaust.
    They do not have that “right”.
    Thinking thatey have that right is what makes them into Nazis.

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