So let me get this straight. Joe Paterno knows that one of his coaches is fucking little kids, so he edges him out. Then, a few years later, he learns that the same guy is fucking little kids in the Penn State shower, so he just reports it to his boss, even though he’s the untouchable king of Happy Valley or whatever that hillbilly enclave is called. The latest rumor is that his punishment is that he’s going to choose his retirement date at age 84, and that’s OK with the NCAA, Penn State Trustees and Pennsylvania Attorney General?
And how about the President of Penn State, who has these qualifications:
a trained family therapist who has written about children and holds a Ph.D. in sociology
This guy’s defense is that he, someone specially trained in the dangers and the hallmarks of child sexual abuse, didn’t hear alarm bells when he heard a story about a coach, a shower and a ten-year-old boy? Isn’t he a school administrator with a duty to report [pdf] and therefore guilty of a crime? If he worked at a clinic as a family therapist, knew this, and didn’t report, he’d be fired at a minimum. Yet he’s still employed.
Then there’s the charity that Sandusky manipulated to supply him with young boys. That sweet Penn State cash keep them in the boy procurement business for a decade after the first allegations were made against Sandusky.
I look at all this, and I wonder what other NCAA programs have this issue. Pederasts thrive in an environment that attracts young boys, and they are sheltered by institutions where embarrassing scandal must be avoided at all costs. There are so many other dynasty athletic programs around that I’ve got to assume there’s another Sandusky or two hiding in the shadows fucking boys in the shower.
Loneoak
And then there’s this. I’m actually surprised this hasn’t yet hit the snarkosphere like a runaway train. Just too sad?
pablo
Yeah, but try to sell your championship ring, or accept free sneakers….
mistermix
@Loneoak: Thanks, I added that pic to the post.
Admiral_Komack
When Joe Pa leaves, I won’t shed a tear.
smintheus
Penn State students and grads share in the blindness as well. Yesterday right on cue students on campus organized a rally at Paterno’s house in support of him. Sickening.
Adolphus
Don’t forget the 6’4″, fresh from NFL training camp, 28 year old GA who happened upon an old man sodomizing a 10 year old and walks away to call his dad.
But College Football builds character and college football players are “tough.”
eric
Allow me to say the following: when then the accusation is that someone was sodomizing a ten year old boy, it is not okay so simply say that he was engaged in “inappropriate” conduct. My god. I listen to the media talking about this and they refuse to go all in. Joe Pa did not shelter someone engaged in inappropriate conduct, he shelter someone physically and mentally torturing a child. That is what he did, pure and simple. man up Penn State alum and call this effer out. You cant go into the homes of young men and tell their parents that you will teach their sons to be men, when you knowingly allow a child rapist to roam free. You are, to use the words of Dame Murdoch, a “moral monstrosity.”
geg6
@smintheus:
It was less than 2000 out of about 48,000 on the UP campus. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.
On my campus, there is pretty much 100% agreement among staff, faculty, students, and alumni that JoePa must go. And so must Spanier. Board of Trustees is meeting today and we’ll see what comes of that.
burnspbesq
I’m reminded that in late March of 2006, EVERYBODY KNEW, with 1,000 percent certainty, that Dave Evans, Reade Seligmann, and Collin Finnerty were GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY!
Why the rush to judgment?
KG
@eric: I’ve been following this mostly through ESPN (in all it’s forms). ESPN radio guys have been brutal. So have a lot of the online guys. Not so sure about Sportscenter, but still, there’s a lot out there, if you know where to look.
me
“Click to look inside?” Not sure I want to take them up on that.
geg6
@geg6:
Just went to the Daily Collegian website and they have the crowd estimate to be only 300 students.
mistermix
@Adolphus: This is what makes me think there’s more of this in the NCAA Div I big sport schools. If the “protect the tribe” / “preserve my career” instinct is that strong, there’s more molesters taking advantage of it somewhere.
henrythefifth
Those students at Joe’s house were morons. Yay for the guy who contributed to hiding a child molester for over a decade!
eric
I think the tide turned at ESPN when Matt Millen spoke out. I heard Blackledge this am and he could not reference Paterno in any way. He was literally speechless. There is a dissonance for many of these guys who believed (some for good reason) that Paterno helped mold their character. Apart from the horror inflicted on the children, it is truly in line with some of the best greek tragedy.
Howard Bryant’s piece was great, as was David Zinn in the Nation.
Culture of Truth
I’ve become sadly wary whenever I read a summary on the Internet of a current event that begins “So let me get this straight..”
mistermix
@burnspbesq: Stick with tax law. First, it’s failure to report *suspected* abuse that’s a crime for school administrators, so that’s a clear violation even if you doubt the accusers. Second, we’re not talking about one incident on one night with one accuser, we’re talking about 8 incidents spread over a long period of time, with multiple, unrelated accusers.
TheStone
Not necessarily disputing your point, but fishing for pederasts would probably be more profitable in the waters of elementary and high school faculty and institutions. Let’s not have this turn into “This is Why Big-Time College Athletics Suck Reason #132,204.”
If anything, Sandusky’s access to prey had more to do w/ the charity that he established specifically to work with vulnerable kids. While his position as a prominent coach enabled him to get 2nd Mile off the ground, there are plenty of charitable activities that would provide such a perv with similar opportunities, most of which have nothing to do w/ college athletics.
On another note, I despise Paterno, and have since long before this shitstorm blew up in his wizened face. He is treated with enormous deference by all PSU beat writers (as well as the national media) and is also insulated by the isolation of State College. I can only hope that some of the dookie flying out of the fans lands on the completely negligent and fawning stenographers who have been pretending that JoePa hasn’t been on PowerSave mode for like 20 years now.
smintheus
@geg6: Ok, but how many places could you get even 300 people to rally in support of a guy who had a part in a child-rape coverup? There’s something wrong with the Penn St. football culture.
eric
@TheStone: His say a prayer for the victims line made me want to reach through the tv and strangle him. Eff you!! How dare you? say a prayer for the victims that my own silence caused. Eff you again. Say a prayer? No, say you are sorry, ask for forgiveness. Beg for forgiveness. When you meet your maker, he will no doubt tell you that “suffer the children” does not mean what you think it means you fuc+er
eric
@smintheus: The Vatican.
Less Popular Tim
@me: @me:
C’mon, if you’re not sure what page you want to see, just click “Surprise Me!”
curiousleo
@TheStone: Two words: USA Swimming.
Also, there’s been stories of shady stuff going on in girls travel basketball (including a guy a few years back that killed himself after being charged w/ molesting middle school/high school girls he was coaching).
Paula
My father, may he rest in peace, told me after my so was born, to never ever put my son in anything having todo with priests or organizations the are only for boys. He went on to say that it’s unnatural for a man to take a vow of chasity and boys organizations are where abusers go for a steady supply of victims. It was then I learned he had been abused. He was an easy mark, being poor.
gene108
NCAA is a trade organization, with voluntary membership.
If its members do things that run afoul of the law, but not the organization rules, there’s not much they can do, other than say they don’t condone ‘x’.
I don’t get why people think the NCAA has any ability to take action in this situation.
***************
Also, too:
Joe Paterno = O.J. Simpson
O.J. Simpson was a beloved sports figure, with a great public image. He then gets arrested for murder and his squeaky clean image goes into the crapper. He’s untouchable as an actor and spokesman for products.
Paterno’s going to suffer the same fate. He’s going to be radioactive to everybody, with half a functioning brain, even if he didn’t violate the law.
I can’t wait for the civil law suits to pour in from Sandusky’s victims, who are coming forward now, and I hope Paterno, McQueary, Shultz, et. al. at PSU get their pants sued off for large amounts of money.
TheStone
@eric: My brother played for Paterno and will tell you his clueless grandpa act is a hoax, with which the whole “let’s say some prayers” bs is of a piece. He’s always been a nasty, self-absorbed p.o.s. It just so happens that lots of people like him play the “aw shucks” card to perfection. It’s just amazing that so many rubes around here (PA) have bought it, especially since his senility has started to reveal cracks in his facade.
mistermix
@TheStone: There are plenty of pederasts in elementary and high schools, but if they’re caught raping kids in the shower, those schools call the cops. There’s something about PSU that kept that from happening. Is it PSU only, or is it NCAA Div I big sports? My guess is the latter.
geg6
@eric:
Exactly.
And I just want to say that the people who aren’t a part of the highest administrative circles are completely shocked, appalled, and furious about this. I have yet to come across anyone who supports Paterno or Spanier. My campus is not anywhere near UP, but it’s been a blow to us as if we were standing right there in State College. I’ve worked here for many years at my campus and none of this squares with what I know this University to be. It’s about time that we and everyone else realized that PSU is NOT Paterno or Spanier. It’s us.
The Moar You Know
@burnspbesq: This isn’t a trial, idiot.
Questions of guilt or innocence are not at stake here. Surely a master Internet Lawyer such as yourself is capable of ascertaining that easily observed fact.
Martin
You know how many little kids you can buy with all of that Big Ten TV money?
k488
I’ve not read any faculty reaction to this yet. I work at a big 10 U, and let me tell you that I and any of my cohort I can imagine would be demanding the ouster of the president on the spot. I’d want to crawl out of my skin. Already do, to a degree, given the kind of day-to-day cover-ups we see at my institution on many fronts. Argh!
catclub
@smintheus: “There’s something wrong with the Penn St. football culture.”
How about: There’s something wrong with football culture.
gene108
@smintheus:
It takes time for beloved public figures to truly lose their appeal.
The best comparison I can think of is O.J. Simpson and the murder trial. It wasn’t until the facts came out about spousal abuse and such that he truly became radioactive as a public figure.
I think Paterno is in the White Bronco chase of his public tarring and feathering.
Yutsano
@burnspbesq: @mistermix: Am I the only one who read that as snark?
Chyron HR
It’s very easy to sit behind your computer in the safety of your home and decide after the fact that you totally wouldn’t rape a ten-year-old child. So there.
Emma
@burnspbesq: Jesus Christ, man. Eight children were interviewed. The GA confirms what he saw. Other people confirm having heard about it. Rush to judgment my tochis.
Or is my snarkmeter broken on this issue?
Kola Noscopy
@burnspbesq:
Because it makes the BJ know-nothings and self righteous keyboard saints and heroes feel moist in their tingly places, that’s why.
sb
I’m surprised no one has written a “what about the parents of the kids? How come they didn’t call the police about their own children being fucked?” I’m doubly surprised mistermix didn’t write those very words.
Gin & Tonic
@burnspbesq: The other day you were comparing this to the McMartin case. I guess you’ve backed off on that, but really, can you not see a difference between the totality of the body of accusations here and the Duke case? Really?
Heritage-Bot
The university needs to clean house. Fire them all from the Chancellor down to the lowest coach. And shut down the program.
I would say the latter would be unfair to the student-athletes, but they’re going to get a raw deal in any case, as I can’t imagine any father of a high school senior athlete is going to be looking at Penn State and saying, “Yes, that’s where I want my son to go!”
West of the Cascades
@burnspbesq: As to Paterno and McQueary: because both of them have given sworn testimony to the grand jury that they (1) saw or heard first-hand that a 57-year old man was anally raping a 10-year old child in the shower in the football locker room, (2) did nothing more than report it up the chain of command and then wash their hands of the issue, while allowing the rapist to continue to bring children onto Penn State campuses, to Penn State football games, and — now I will use the word allegedly for the first time, all of the foregoing is their sworn testimony or undisputed fact — allegedly continue to prey on young children for the last nine years, and (3) continued to personally profit from their positions in the Penn State football program for the last nine years despite (1) and (2).
That is enough to fire them from their positions at Penn State university, regardless of the outcome of the criminal trials of Sandusky and the administrators who are alleged to have lied in their sworn testimony.
TheStone
@mistermix: Well, they kept one of my HS coaches on for a few years before his stupidity and lack of self-control made it impossible to do so any longer. Millions of dollars need not be in play for the wagons to circle. You see it in primary schools, the Church, businesses, etc. I just don’t want to see this get conflated with all the other clear indicators of corruption that are erupting all over the NCAA’s poxy face right now. There needs to be a broader-based lesson taken away regarding power, predation, and accountability – one that would apply in some way in most people’s lives, not just those who are connected to major college football programs.
To directly answer your query: I think that big-time college athletic programs often fail the transparency test. I do, however, believe that there was a particular level of obfuscation at PSU that made this type of thing especially likely. Paterno is a loyalty-above-all-other-ethical-considerations-old-time-Italian guy + he’s worshipped as some kind of quasi-deity in these parts + PSU is miles from civilization and populated mainly by drunk teens and people who make $$$ off the football program.
eric
Final note: Paterno and the school knew that the rapist used his key to gain access to rape the boys. They affirmatively decided to let him keep the key. They are public actors that allowed the rapes to happen. I am not an expert on 1983, but I wonder if a claim could be made.
West of the Cascades
@Yutsano:
I’m afraid that, with the reference to the false accusations against the Duke lacrosse players, it was a serious suggestion that we must not judge Joe Paterno (or any of the other coaches or administrators at PSU) until final judgment is rendered in the criminal trials of Sandusky, Shultz and Curley.
curiousleo
@mistermix:
Cast your net beyond sports. Businesses, churches, sports programs, schools, civic organizations, families. etc. All have had abuse & cover ups.
Organizations of all sorts where charismatic people in positions of leadership (throw in various rituals to re-enforce and build tribal unity plus loyalty) have the potential to end up where PSU is. Throw in real good work done by the organization/people covering up and the cognitive dissidence potential grows.
eta: crossposted w/ TheStone’s post #42. (and I agree w/ it)
eemom
burnsy, I’m all for not rushing to judgment until all the evidence is in — but in this case, most of it IS. It is ludicrous to compare it to the Duke case, just as it was ludicrous to compare it to the McMartin case.
If you were the defense lawyer for these pedophile enablers, exactly what would your case consist of? What evidence do you think might be out there that would exculpate them?
mistermix
@sb: The reason I didn’t write that is because I realized that the charity was for “at risk kids” who, by definition, have issues with proper parenting. And, I also know enough about child molesters to know that they seek out kids with especially inadequate parents. That’s why there are duty to report laws, because we need doctors, teachers and therapists to report when it’s clear that parents can’t or won’t.
Ben Cisco
You know who else wanted to finish out the season?
TheStone
@eric: Even worse, the only “disciplinary” action that PSU may have taken (telling Sandusky he would NOT be Paterno’s successor, leading him to a “surprising” early retirement) is what allowed Sandusky to become a Full-Time Child Molester.
Hoodie
@West of the Cascades: Maybe a bit of a rush to judgment on Spanier, however. It depends on what those assholes actually told him. I wouldn’t be surprised if, because of the size and stature of the athletic dept, the university admin was effectively walled off from a lot of went on there. Those departments are often like separate kingdoms that have little contact with what goes on in the rest of the university.
gene108
@West of the Cascades:
Nothing wrong with presuming innocence until contradictory evidence is found.
Though the court of public opinion is a different animal, than the court of law.
eric
@TheStone: Worse yet will be the emails, which should be the proper subject of a FOIA, amirite?
eric
@Hoodie: nope. You suspend Paterno until the investigation is over to avoid an appearance problem. He wont do it. Hence, he is part of the larger institutional problem that gave rise to the hubris that made all of this possible.
Special Patrol Group
Oh, YOU’RE devastated by the “developments”? Old Man, you are a monster and you need to go. NOW! Not next week. Not at the end of the season. Now. Get out. You can pray on your own time.
Looks like Penn State plays at Ohio State and at Wisconsin. I hope the fans there can show the Penn State monsters how people should respond to outright enablers of child rapists.
flukebucket
I had always thought Penn State might be grooming Mike McCreary for the head coaching job because he was always joined at the hip with Paterno during games and was just a wide receivers coach as far as I know. He was not offensive or defensive coordinator so it always surprised me that I never seemed to see one without the other on the sidelines.
Keith Olbermann lowered the boom on JoePa last night. JoePa was worst person in the world and Olbermann pulled no punches about how he felt about the whole thing.
TheStone
@eric: Yes, seeing as PSU is a state institution. Unless it was handled through back-channels like personal emails on personal computers. But even that stuff may well come out in a criminal investigation.
geg6
@Hoodie:
Now we have someone who finally understands the dynamics here. PSU football and Paterno have always been a kingdom unto themselves. I believe it was in 2004 that there was a huge push to force Paterno into retirement (supposedly spearheaded by Spanier and the Board of Trustees) but it was effectively shut down by alumni organizations and large donors. Money talks, as always.
curiousleo
@eric:
I’m guessing they didn’t use email. Paterno is 84 and not exactly an “embrace the
20th21st century” type of elder.Somewhere in all the coverage, I remember seeing a story which seemed to say that some sports writers in PA had some sort of hints/whatnot multiple years ago that there was something very much not ok in Happy Valley but did not investigate. Anyone know more about that?
Angela
@mistermix: We have mandatory reporting laws because most people who are told of abuse most often will not report without mandatory reporting requirements. The average child who has experienced sexual abuse tells seven adults before he/she is believed.
Most victims will never tell their parents. The dynamics of abuse include degrees of shame, self-blame, ambivalence, and fear. Abuse happens in a conspiracy of silence.
The high school principle who created a safe enough environment for the first victim to break the silence and cry is a hero. Kudos to the mom who got the school involved.
And yes, I think Paterno needs to go now.
Lex
@Hoodie:
Well, that’s not what the NCAA SAYS is supposed to happen …
/snark
Lex
@eric: I believe I read that Penn State is specifically exempted from state open-records laws. Although you can bet the cops will be all over them. Unless they’ve been “accidentally” deleted.
TheStone
I’m gonna dump one more jerrycan on this here fire- the prosecutor, Ray Gricar, who originally declined to prosecute Sandusky disappeared in 2005. After his missing car turned up, his laptop was subsequently located in a river, with the hard drive physically destroyed. His home PC was found to have been used to conduct an internet search on “how to destroy a hard drive.” I’m not trying to be Beck-esque here or anything, but . . .
MelissaM
Can we please change the word “f*cking” to “raping”? (how much can I type before it hits mod?) Not that f*cking implies consent or anything, but we’re talking about 10 year old children. I have a 10yo. If anything like this would happen to her, it would be rape, which is the word used for sexual congress against the will of one involved. It also isn’t a curse word, yet a word that will shock. Use the F-word and you turn people off and they stop listening. Use rape and it can be more shocking yet not crass.
Ya know?
The more I hear about this case, the more disgusted I get. It’s scandal in the American religion, the church of football and sports. It reeks and all those involved should be purged, frogmarched, etc.
Cue the willie shudders.
General Stuck
I will say this. Everyone at that school that knew about this, going back to the 1998 coverup, needs to be be shown the door. Unless they called the cops. No exceptions. Those that can be prosecuted, should be. I will continue to think those at the top of this institution deserve the most blame. And that is all I have to say about this very sick shit.
edit – having just read the GJ report
sb
@mistermix: I’d take it a step further. I’m a high school teacher and we are trained to report any suspected abuse. I’ve had students give me the “please don’t tell anyone but my mom/dad is beating me daily…” and I call the authorities. The student is pissed off, even after I tell them the reasoning–if I don’t report it, I’m complicit. But maybe it’s different for universities–anybody know?
curiousleo
@geg6: I thought is was shut down by Paterno just saying “No. Now get off my lawn.” That’s one of the (several) reasons why the “Paterno told his supervisors so he did the legally right thing” never washed for me. Paterno had NO supervisor/superior. When Paterno can basically tell the PSU pres to eff off I’m not leaving when said prez says “please retire now” no one is going to do jack with regards to the football program w/o Paterno’s permission.
I will also note that Renee Portland was protected and supported by Paterno and that’s why she survived for so long when her “no lesbians or anyone that might be perceived as looking like a lesbian” policy was common knowledge. Even the settlement of the lawsuit was a joke.
Brachiator
@mistermix:
Boy Scouts.
It’s got nothing to do with anything particular to the NCAA or college sports. And Sandusky set up a foundation that used kids’ interest in sports as a way to entice victims (allegedly).
You might as well say that any charitable organization involving children might be an area which might attract pedophiles.
And we might as well close down the schools, with all the teacher on student sex incidents popping up.
It’s not about institutions. It’s about predatory human behavior.
Hoodie
@geg6: If that’s the history, all the more reason that Paterno and his cronies may have lied to Spanier.
curiousleo
@TheStone:
Gricar’s disappearance is one of the weirder parts of this entire story to me. Just bizarre.
bin Lurkin'
@Angela: I was molested at about 13 years old, a “family friend” who was an older man grabbed my crotch and then tried to get me to take my clothes off.
You’re right, I never told my parents. I never told anyone else in fact until I was in my late forties.
What happened to me didn’t rise to the level of what Sandusky was doing to kids but I still felt that urge to hide the event.
Villago Delenda Est
@Brachiator:
It’s about institutions looking the other way at human predatory behavior because it would be inconvenient for the institution to do something the fuck about it.
Loneoak
Just as an interesting social phenomenon, with big public scandals like this it seems the longer the cover up, the longer the tail of the outrage and blowback. We have only begun to see the heads roll and I wouldn’t be surprised if PSU loses its president and Paterno has ‘health problems’ that take him off the field entirely. And then there will be the trials and civil cases.
As a bonus, I bet the football team collapses completely.
TheStone
@curiousleo: Joe Paterno knows plenty of NJ paisans, of this much I am sure.
debit
Yahoo News has an article at the top of the page calling it a “sex scandal”. Wrong. It’s a “child rape scandal”. I would like to see every last one of the fuckers involved in covering this up burn.
Gex
@Villago Delenda Est: And about people with a stake in their status and position within the institution. Any of those individuals would have done much more to stop child rape if it hadn’t been mixed up with an institution they were involved in and a threat to their status within.
kay
I’d just like to mention that there were 218 reports of (alleged) child abuse in 2010 in the county where I live.
In each and every county in this country there is a children’s services agency that will take a report of suspected child abuse, and never, ever reveal the reporter’s name.
They children’s services agency is mandated to do an investigation (on screening in the report), by statute. It comes back “substantiated, unsubstantiated, or indicated”. One way to substantiate it is to interview the child.
The intent of this 30 year old wildly successful confidential reporting system was so that people would report suspected child abuse without fear of repercussions. It’s an extraordinary system because children are uniquely vulnerable, and children’s services would not know anything without adult reporters.
And people do report. 218 times in this county of 30k, last year.
I’d like to know why some people who work at Penn State don’t know this, when everyone in this county knows it.
I’d like to know why any person who work at Penn State didn’t consider the specific mechanism we have to report child abuse, confidentially.
We have two systems to protect children, and only one of them is the criminal system. The other is abuse, neglect and dependency proceedings. It was designed for children. That’s why we have it.
Angela
@bin Lurkin’: I’m sorry you had to deal with that. As a woman, it is hard for me to imagine what that would be like for an adolescent boy. Everytime I hear a man speak of being violated in that way as a boy, it tears my heart.
I’m really glad you are able to speak if it now, and that you can speak to the reality of how impossible it was to speak of it as a boy.
Angela
@kay: It sounds as if your county has a great program. A conservative estimate for incidence of sexual abuse impacting children is 1 in 6 boys, 1 in 4 girls.
I’m not a mathematician, but I was an accountant for quite a few years before my second career and it seems to me the numbers say that sexual abuse is still being under reported, even with as good a program for taking care of reporting that you describe.
Brachiator
@Villago Delenda Est:
Fair point. When it comes to the cover up, the rationalizations are always similar. People excusing crimes because of a “bigger perspective.” As with the Boy Scouts case I cited,
But again, there is nothing about this sad case that points especially to the NCAA or college athletics.
bin Lurkin'
@Angela: Thank you, I appreciate your kind thoughts.
I also appreciate your informed input on this subject here on BJ.
kay
@Angela:
It’s not at all a “good program”. This is a low wage, rural county. It’s a bare bones program.
Angela, you’re avoiding the question. 218 times in 2010. Children’s Services didn’t seek out those calls. They got them. From adults. I know the people who make those calls. They are not nearly as sophisticated and well-trained as people who are on the staff at a giant university. Yet, somehow, they knew to call.
If I call there right now the receptionist says this: “are you reporting abuse?”
She knows me. I’m in there twice a week. Doesn’t matter. She has to ask.
Why didn’t anyone at Penn State make a confidential call? What you’re telling me is all of these people at Penn State are much dumber and/or more fearful than 218 random people last year in a rural Ohio county. Is that the defense? Because I don’t buy it.
Mnemosyne
@bin Lurkin’:
People who haven’t experienced it don’t understand how different it is from a “simple” sexual assault. There’s a difference between being attacked by a stranger or a peer and being attacked by an adult or babysitter who is in a position of authority over you that makes you feel like you can’t protest or fight back. Worse, you feel like you’re the one who will be punished if you say anything, and you’re probably right.
Add in the fact that evil bastards like Sandusky deliberately prey on troubled kids so that he probably was the only adult in their lives who took a genuine interest in them and encouraged them and it’s much, much more complex for the victims than, “I was raped.”
Mnemosyne
@kay:
Because they were more interested in protecting Joe Paterno than they were in protecting anonymous kids that most of them had never met.
scav
Stepping back and speaking abstractly just for a sec, there is a shared underlying theme (once again) of a structure existing — moreover, existing with all sorts of self-congratulation as being moral, exemplary, simply the best and devoted to winning — and being exploited those at the top of it without compulsion, for their own personal gain and with absolutely no recognition that the stated rules might apply to them. The structural similarity to the Vatican situation is an easy one to make: I’m seeing a similarity to the economic / financial systems as well. Patermo et al are essentially 1%ers.
ETA: Course, I don’t follow football, so maybe this is all a given already. Just kicking an idea around.
Joel
Here’s what angers me most, past the crime itself.
Weren’t the police investigating this matter when it was first brought up, all those years ago? We can talk about the individual actors at Penn State and their complicitness in this crime, but what about the goddamn police?! That’s their job. To serve and protect the innocent. I guess I should know better.
Joel
@smintheus: I’m not sure you want to know. I could imagine a whole lot of places where you’d see that kind of nasty tribalism. By the way, about that rally. This image won’t surprise anyone, I don’t think.
curiousleo
@Joel: Police investigated in 1998 and the prosecutor declined to press charges. iirc, after a year and a half (or maybe 2 yrs) records of such investigations where no charges are filed are tossed.
Or at least that’s what I think I remember reading in one of the articles about this case & the disappeared/now presumed dead prosecutor.
Mnemosyne
@Joel:
That’s the weirdest part of the story — the DA who was investigating the original charges disappeared and was eventually declared dead.
I actually think the police have the smallest share of the blame here. They investigated when people told them what was going on, they gave the evidence to the DA, and then the guy vanished. When more allegations surfaced recently, they investigated again and that information was used for the grand jury hearings that got the indictments.
The cops can’t investigate if they don’t know there’s a crime because the Penn State athletic department is conspiring to cover it up.
ETA: And if the DA declines to prosecute, there’s not much the cops can do.
West of the Cascades
@kay: That IS the question here, isn’t it?
The Pennsylvania Department of Public Welfare has a toll-free number (“ChildLine” – (800) 932-0313) for reporting suspected child abuse, and as far as I can tell from looking at history of the Pennsylvania abuse reporting statute, has had that toll-free number since 1995. The child welfare statute required the toll-free number to be established. That is the number the statute requires reports of suspected child abuse to be made to by people with mandatory reporting obligations.
It seems the only answer to kay’s question is that all of the individuals involved were more concerned with their jobs, and the “integrity” of the Penn State football program, than they were in reporting the suspected child abuse.
Paul in KY
@geg6: He needs to go before the end of the season, IMO.
Brachiator
@Gin & Tonic:
The totality of the body of accusations in the Duke case looked solid. Until the case fell apart and the misbehavior of the prosecutor was uncovered.
Obviously, this case is bad, and much of the reporting is solid. But still, nobody can suggest that it is a slam dunk “open and shut” case.
kay
@Mnemosyne:
Bingo. Not just Joe Paterno. The Brand.
(Total) reports of abuse by county are public records in Ohio, partly because they have to justify a budget. I imagine they’re public records in Pennsylvania.
Might be interesting to see how people outside that system but in that county do with confidential reporting of suspected child abuse. Wouldn’t be hard to beat the Penn State record based on what we know so far.
One report would do it. I could forgive a report and an investigation that came back “unsubstantiated”. That happens. Kids won’t talk, and there are no witnesses. What I can’t forgive is those people not giving those kids a fucking fighting chance to help themselves and the kids who came after. They could have (perhaps!) stopped this train in 1999. One phone call.
JPL
Sandusky admitted in 1998 of showering and lathering an eleven year old boy and the department of public welfare and the police decided not to press charges after Sandusky said he wouldn’t do it again. There could have been confidential calls but it appears that in Happy Valley football rules apply.
Paterno is trying to dictate his terms of departure and unfortunately will probably be allowed to since character and spine appear to be absent in Happy Valley. After reading the grand jury report I’ve come to the conclusion they have to clean house. If Joe didn’t know it’s because he told McQueary not to tell him the horrifying details. Paterno sold his soul to the devil a long time ago.
McQueary became a coach the following year. I wondered how he addressed his former coach Sandusky..
Anonymous At Work
1. Not sure that the NCAA is through here or were even consulted. This has moved fast in the last few days.
2. The courts sure as hell aren’t done with Paterno. He’ll have more than a few depositions and other proceedings to fill his time over the next year or two.
curiousleo
@Mnemosyne: I don’t think the DA disappeared until about 5 yrs after he “declined to prosecute” the charges in 1998. The disappeared DA is just bizarre.
I mean, I know people go missing every day. The sister of someone I went to high school with has been missing for about a decade (police found her vehicle but never her). But the destroyed laptop just adds another whole level of “huh” when connected to the Sandusky charges–what else was he “declining to prosecute” ?
Mnemosyne
@flukebucket:
Now that we know that McQueary was one of the few witnesses to Sandusky’s abuse who actually reported it to Paterno and is the one who blew the lid off the whole cover-up with his grand jury testimony, it puts a whole new light on Paterno keeping him within arm’s reach at all times, doesn’t it?
DKF
@The Moar You Know:
Actually, trying someone in “the court of public opinion” knowing virtually nothing of the real, material facts can have quite a prejudicial impact on a subsequent court case. Questions of guilt or innocence are indeed at stake here.
JPL
Paterno won’t resign sooner. He wants to walk across the field on Saturday with his head held high. It’s all about him.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
The Duke case had one (1) complainant. This has at least 8, with the police still looking for more. There are multiple witnesses to Sandusky’s behavior — not just the GA (McQueary), but also at least two coaches at the high school.
Sure, the prosecution could fuck everything up and everyone could go free. See the aforementioned OJ Simpson case. But unless you’re alleging a huge conspiracy of victims, the high school coaches, the GA, and several parents, I don’t see how you can equate the Duke case and this one.
scav
Mostly OT but I knew that Happy Valley was tickling a neuron. Kenya Happy Valley Set, and read as far as Josslyn Hay, 22nd Earl of Erroll at least. This lot gave rise to the question “Are you married or do you live in Kenya?” during the ’20s.
GVG
Just a point, the NCAA is about college athletic contests being “fair” and by the rules. It is not meant to replace our courts on any criminal matter. Asking what the NCAA will do is a red herring and distracting from real solutions. The NCAA should try to keep quiet and not draw attention to itself beyond maybe a statement that such criminal acts as described normally result in jail time. They might be compelled by their own rules to give out some lifetime coaching bans
daveNYC
@Brachiator: It’s about institutions.
That’s a three month period just over a year ago, and the teacher’s aid just plead guilty. The first reported, event by Sandusky was back in 1998, and he just posted bail. That additional fourteen years of ass rape is what the institution brings to the table in cases like these.
curiousleo
@Mnemosyne:
McQueary could have gone all “I don’t recall” in the grand jury testimony and didn’t. I’m not supporting his inaction over the years but he could have done even less. And he’s a PSU lifer/true believer so the cognitive dissidence/etc increases. But dude will (rightly) never coach again. And might have to change his name & color his hair to find any sort of job every again.
Richard
@curiousleo:
In regards to the vanished DA, when I think of possible reasons why someone would try very, very hard to destroy a hard drive, one of things that comes to mind is child pornography.
kay
@JPL:
The grand jury report says childrens services were not contacted. Again, if they are contacted, there’s paper. There’s a record. It’s an administrative agency. They don’t have a lot of discretion. They have to investigate and they have to reach a conclusion. The reason that matters is if they keep hearing, that’s a pattern, they look at the prior reports. They can then put things together.
This isn’t a criminal proceeding. They don’t need to build a criminal case. They just need enough to go in, get in front of a judge who is going to bend over backward to call a screeching halt and get everyone safe. Once that’s done, the prosecutor (and process) takes over, and everybody gets heard.
We treat children differently. Adult rights give way (somewhat) to the need for immediate safety and no further harm. That’s deliberate. It’s a deal we struck. A trade-off.
curiousleo
@Mnemosyne:
I didn’t know this part. I’ve sorta stopped reading the news reports b/c of the making me weepy & depressed thing. The story continues to get worse.
Mnemosyne
@curiousleo:
I still think that McQueary is probably the one redeemable person we know of in this story. Yes, he participated in the cover-up for almost a decade, but we also wouldn’t have the perjury charges against the others if he hadn’t given full testimony. Everyone else at Penn State seems to have spent their grand jury time covering their asses and the school’s ass.
He should never coach at the NCAA level again, but I actually wouldn’t have a problem with him, say, coaching at inner-city schools since he now can speak from experience about how going along to get along is a very, very bad thing.
Angela
@kay: I’m not saying that the people who didn’t call have an excuse for not calling. They don’t. They weren’t ignorant as to what needed to be done, they covered it up. That was wrong. Full stop.
What I was trying to say, is that abuse is under reported. And it is under reported for a reason. And it helps those who are being abused right now, if people start to understand the dynamics of abuse and why it is under reported.
And in this incident, part of that dynamic was protection of The Brand.
ChrisB
The whole coaching staff will be gone after this year and a new regime brought in. They won’t be able to recruit otherwise (which may well be more important to the powers that be than the moral considerations).
Also, I heard on ESPN this morning that McQuery is responsible for signalling in the plays to the QB that are called by the Offensive Coordinator in the booth. As such, he’s a pretty essential cog in the offense, which would be dysfunctional for some time if he is fired or suspended during the season (and don’t think that isn’t in their thinking right now).
@eemom:
They have to pin it on McQuery — that even though he apparently testified specifically that he saw the boy pinned up against the shower wall (ugh!), he was not that explicit in describing the incident to Paterno, Curley and Schultz. But that’s pretty much what they told the grand jury.
catclub
@daveNYC: “That additional fourteen years of ass rape is what the institution brings to the table in cases like these.”
So maybe now is not a good time to bring up the Institution D/B/A the Roman Catholic Church and its gigantic coverup?
I assume that Paterno is Catholic.
JPL
@kay:
Department of Public Welfare and the police were involved in 1998. The DA decided not to bring charges even though Sandusky admitted wrong doing. The department did what it was suppose to do in that case and unfortunately it didn’t help.
kay
@Angela:
I don’t think it helps abuse under-reporting to keep insisting that there are all kinds of legit reasons people don’t report abuse, ranging from “trauma” to their issues with sex to career concerns.
Plenty of people report. If plenty of people didn’t report there wouldn’t be a child protective services, because they aren’t inside homes and showers so they wouldn’t have anything to investigate.
We don’t rely on kids to assume adult responsibility and do the adult work of dealing with difficult situations. It doesn’t matter that none of the kids “told”, on their own. That isn’t their job. What matters is no one asked them. Had they been interviewed they might well have told. We’ll never know, because these adults abandoned them. PLENTY of adults don’t do that. These adults did.
curiousleo
@catclub: Yes, Paterno is RCC.
Mnemosyne
@kay:
I don’t think that’s what Angela is arguing at all. I think that she’s saying, from her personal experience working with abuse victims, that people usually don’t report, and that victims who self-report have a hard time getting heard. She’s giving examples as to why people don’t report, but I don’t think she’s saying they’re right to not report.
People seem incredulous that anyone would witness abuse and not report it, and Angela is just pointing out that not reporting is actually the norm, not the exception. That’s reality, unfortunately.
ETA: In a county of 30,000 people, do you really think there were only 218 cases of child abuse in 2010? I think those numbers legitimate Angela’s point more than you think.
eemom
@Brachiator:
oh no it didn’t. The Duke case reeked from the get go.
What “looked solid” was the belief that rich white LAX players widely regarded as reckless, drunken assholes would be capable of gang rape.
eemom
@Mnemosyne:
You can’t. It is an utterly ridiculous comparison.
kay
@JPL:
An unsubstantiated report in 1998 coupled with any of the numerous reports that should have come after 1998 is more than enough. It’s cumulative. The individual reporters don’t know that, but if CPS keep hearing the same name, that’s a case.
Again, I’m not talking about evidence required for a criminal conviction. I’m talking about enough to get the kids out of harm’s way, and look at the whole picture. It’s a breather. It’s “what’s going on here?” They don’t leave the kids at risk while that process goes forward. They act, because Second Mile can be re-opened if it all turns out to be bullshit, but we can’t undo another child-rape. It’s a safety standard. Not a lot of judges will take that risk on, so they err on the side of safety.
pseudonymous in nc
The whole narrative of development surrounding NCAA athletics — the “boys into men” schtick, which feels especially icky to say here — has always struck me as problematic. Same institutional issues as the RC Church, same mythos, same culture of self-preservation and structures of internal accountability.
It’s worth being careful about construing more than the indictment says, absent deposition transcripts from the grand jury. But even then, it’s a horrific narrative, and it implies that Paterno’s extended tenure helped perpetuate the kind of culture that was endemic in institutions several decades ago.
Suffern ACE
The punishment for Joe Paterno should be the same as that for any administrator who was informed of sexual abuse and did not follow through on contacting the police, and should be also be treated the same as any administrator would be treated during a criminal investigation. If he is not being investigated for criminal behavior, or if the punishment for not calling the police normally meted out isn’t being fired (and I don’t know what normal outcomes are), and if he can’t interfere with the investigation, then what is the purpose of firing him this afternoon?
Angela
@kay: Show me where I have said there are legit reasons for adults not reporting abuse.
I think what helps prevent abuse is for people to become aware that it is not a a black and white issue, and that there are underlying dynamics that allow abuse to happen and the more those dynamics are named and dealt with, the better off we are.
I think accurate information about how prevalent this issue is, and how little most people are aware of it, and how little most people due to bring it into the light is important. And to me, that starts with naming the realities, not engaging in wishful thinking of what should have been.
eemom
The dead prosecutor could well be a gruesome red herring.
In the Chandra Levy case, for example,the number one sensationalizing factor that kept it in the news 24/7 for months before 9/11 blasted it off, i.e., Gary Condit’s affair with the victim, turned out — after all that — to have been nothing more than a coincidence.
Mnemosyne
@kay:
How do you get the kids out of harm’s way when they’re not being abused by someone in the home? You can close the program down, but can you get injunctions against Sandusky contacting any of the kids without a criminal investigation?
I am actually asking the question, because I’m not sure how these things work when it’s abuse that’s occurring outside of the home by a teacher or coach. Can you tell parents that they can’t take their kids to church anymore or they have to take them out of Catholic school if the reported abuser is a priest?
rb
@smintheus: Almost any Catholic diocese, any given Sunday, sad to say.
JPL
@kay: In that case Sandusky admitted what he did was inappropriate and promised he would never do it again. I can’t find the quote and I refuse to read the report again but he called the mother and said maybe he should die or something. Maybe that wasn’t a strong case but I think admitting to lathering an eleven year old boy would be enough to charge him with something.
That was the only case Dept. of Public Welfare had though.
The situation is so sad…
I saw online according to a local fox new station an additional seventeen now young men have called in.
edit..at least someone might believe the young men and boys now.
rb
@Paula: Paula, I’m very sorry for you and for him. That must have been an very difficult conversation for both of you. Good on him for looking to protect his grandson.
JPL
This comment was on a sports blog on MSNBC
Angela
@Angela: Let me clarify what I mean by abuse is not a black and white issue. The vileness of abuse is always wrong. That is black and white. But how people are impacted, what the underlying dynamics are etc etc are not black and white, one size fits all.
I’m not doing a good job of expressing myself today, so thanks to those who have heard what I am saying, and what I am trying to say.
kay
@Mnemosyne:
That’s never happened in one of my cases, but sure, if the parents continued to put the child in harm’s way. The child would be adjudicated abused neglected or dependent, and placed in the temporary custody of the state. That would be extreme and we wouldn’t get that far, but if the parents insisted on sending him to Second Mile while he’s doing a case plan for sexual abuse, yeah, a judge could order that.
The way to understand this system is to remember the kids are adjudicated abused, neglected or dependent. It all stems from that adjudication.
There’s also a less intrusive version of “custody” called “protective supervision”. That’s used a lot. It just means the state has sort of a standing order to go in (anywhere) and check on the kid.
I’ve seen an order where the parent could not send her children alone across her apartment parking lot to her mother’s place, because there was a registered sex offender resident, and the child had been adjudicated abused.
Gex
@kay: People who are actually entrusted with other people’s children no less. Random people are one thing. People with a responsibility for other people’s children should be above average with respect to identifying and acting on suspected child abuse.
kay
@Angela:
I think we just have different opinions/experiences on the stigma surrounding this, as to the adult reporter. I feel as if you’re talking about 30 years ago. I just don’t see as much of that as you do. It’s certainly hard to deal with, but do you really have adults insisting child abuse doesn’t occur, or they’ll be somehow shunned/reviled if they report? I don’t know. I see reports on excessive playing of video games by parents. All kinds of things. The baby has a sunburn. Like that. Not exactly slam dunks on abuse.
Sometimes I think people are looking for it.
Kola Noscopy
@Loneoak:
This is where Juicers like you show their colors. Why the fuck is it important to you that the entire PSU football program be destroyed?
The Catholic Church continues to operate.
The Boy Scouts of America continues to operate.
There is a strong thread of homophobic hysteria here at BJ that essentially equates an age-old, problematic, human sexual behavior as worse than murder, torture, etc.
The American Puritanical streak persists, even among so called Progressives.
Sandusky, if proved guilty, needs to pay, as do any of his superiors shown to assist in a coverup, but ummm…that’s all that needs to happen. There will be lawsuits too for the self righteous to touch themselves over.
Mnemosyne
@kay:
But I think that’s part of the problem that Angela is talking about — when you start having things happen like kids not being allowed to cross a parking lot to visit their grandmother by themselves because a molester lives in the same building, the incentive to report is lowered because that may not be realistic. If the price of reporting the abuse is that you have to pull your kids out of school and transfer them to a new one or else they’ll be put in a foster home, the incentive to report that abuse is much lower.
If you think it’s a little creepy that Sandusky is calling your house to talk to your son, but the alternative is to pull your son out of a program that’s already helped him improve his grades at school, is that really an easy, black-and-white, no-brainer choice for that parent without more evidence?
ETA: I think I just posted the plot twist in Doubt, but anyway …
Kola Noscopy
@debit:
Christ, get a grip, psycho.
Kola Noscopy
@Joel:
hahaha…yeah, how about here on BJ? hahahaha
kay
@Angela:
I think that’s our disagreement. I think 30 years of talking about it has made people HUGELY aware of it.
That’s why I have so many problems with these people. I don’t buy it, Angela. I think they covered it up because they knew it would harm their careers and that school. I don’t (actually) give people credit for telling the truth in front of a grand jury. I don’t give them credit for appearing in response to an order from the state. They were dragged in there, kicking and screaming, and one didn’t perjure himself. Woop de do doo. Pin a medal on him.
rb
@Kola Noscopy:
The Catholic Church continues to operate.
The Boy Scouts of America continues to operate.
Uh, these parallels are supposed to make us look more favorably on PSU football?
These words, I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
Kola Noscopy
@curiousleo:
OH PLEASE. You fucking LOVE this shit.
Mnemosyne
@Kola Noscopy:
Spoken like a true pedophile. Even when you have people in this very thread talking about the harm that was done to them by adult abusers, you still just can’t believe that what you’re doing is wrong, can you?
kay
@Mnemosyne:
That actually was realistic. That place is crawling with creeps of all kinds. She really did need an escort across the parking lot, that girl. I think I’m fairly sensible and not excessively sentimental about children and I went along with that, knowing the place, and the child. Again, to a certain extent, judges are covering their asses (but in a good way!).
NOBODY wants a repeat on their watch, so it’s safety, safety, safety.
Kola Noscopy
@Mnemosyne:
Wow. just fuck you, dipshit. Now the name calling and wild accusations REALLY take off. What the fuck are you exactly talking about, other than what voices in your head tell you?
Because I point out that none of you self righteous jerks knows the facts in this case, you actually have the gall to denounce me as a fucking pedo. Just fucking wow.
I propose that those of you so getting off on the endless discussion of this case are the ones who are diddling children…it’s always the most righteous on the surface who are the most foul underneath.
Mnemosyne
@kay:
I’m not saying there wasn’t a realistic fear for that child’s safety. I’m saying is it realistic to expect the other parents in the building to see a mother threatened with losing custody if her daughter crosses the parking lot by herself and expect those parents to report suspected abuse since it would mean they would also be threatened with losing custody if they don’t take the same steps?
And, yes, I do think you’re vastly overestimating how aware people are of the actual dynamics of how child molestation in particular happens and continues, especially when it comes to the perpetrators being people outside of the family like teachers and coaches. It’s (relatively) easy to report that you saw your neighbor hitting their kid. It’s harder to report that you saw a teacher with a student outside of school and you got a weird vibe from it.
Kola Noscopy
@Mnemosyne:
If you said that to my face, I would punch you in your dry and cobwebbed nether regions, you foul crone.
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
Mere number doesn’t always mean anything.
I was not equating the cases, except with respect to this: Balloon Juicers (and other folks) tend to love to play court of public opinion with incomplete information. And a lot of people were absolutely sure that they knew everything to know about the Duke case, and that the players were obviously guilty, and it was another situation of privileged rich degenerates doing bad things to women.
But the only information the public had was the information that the prosecution was feeding to the media. And the prosecution was lying their asses off, and hiding exculpatory information from everyone, including the defense.
I understand the reasonable outrage that people are expressing about what may have gone on here. And I noted that a lot of the reporting has been solid, and we have information about grand jury testimony.
We also know that the college apparently took steps to limit Sandusky’s use of the college, even though they may not have fully cooperated with the authorities.
I noted that it looks pretty bad. And yet, anyone who claims that they know all the facts and can absolutely pronounce guilt is fooling themselves.
@Kola Noscopy:
WTF? There is something seriously wrong with you. People are repelled by child rape. It ain’t got squat to do with homophobia.
kay
@Mnemosyne:
Well, it’s more than that. The child would have been adjudicated abused. The facts in the complaint would have been determined “true”. It’s not “guilty”, because we’re not charging the adult. It’s “true”. As to the child.
So you’re asking me if the parents can send the kid off in the car with Sandusky after the child has been adjudicated abused (by Sandusky)?
No. They can’t. They’ll have to come up with another plan, or the state is going to safety plan the kid with a relative who isn’t insane.
Mnem, honestly, I can’t imagine this sort of risk/reward analysis going on after an abuse adjudication. I think I have bigger problems than Sandusky with parents like that.
Mnemosyne
@Kola Noscopy:
You’re the one who keeps saying that maybe the 10-year-olds were really enjoying having sex with a 50-year-old man, and we’re just being close-minded when we point out that it’s a goddamned crime when that happens.
If you come here defending the actions of pedophiles as totally normal behavior that we’re just too uptight to understand, don’t expect people to not assume you’re one of them.
Kola Noscopy
Bullshit. They are EXTRA super duper repelled by any mention of butt sex, thus the endless cries of “ass rape”, “sodomy,” “blood on the floor,” (of which there was none of course),etc. This discussion is an opportunity to let their hysterical, homophobic freak flag fly, proud and free in the sunlight
Emma
@Kola Noscopy: Homophobic hysteria? Could someone PLEASE ban this… this… sorry excuse for a human being? What the bleeding hell does homophobia have to do with child abuse, you unspeakable stain on the human species? Everyone on this blog would be throwing the exact same fit if it were a girl child. It’s CHILDREN. People get freaked out about child abuse.
And yet you keep bringing in the homophobia. I think you’re like the cat who looked in a mirror and saw the enemy.
Kola Noscopy
@Mnemosyne:
I won’t bother correcting your willful twisting of my earlier statements, so just fuck off where that is concerned, but…
I repeat: What part of YOU DO NOT KNOW THE FACTS IN THESE CASES, ONLY THOSE ALLEGED IN THE GJ report, DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? What explains the never ending need to denounce and posture ahead of the coming trials? What is YOUR behavior about? Are you feeling guilty about the boys and girls you molested and abused in the Satanic rituals in your basement so many years ago, you filthy hag?
Yes…that must be it. Jesus.
Kola Noscopy
@Emma:
Oh…is THAT what you think, you Santorum stain?
karen marie
@sb: They may well not have known, may still not know, or the parents may have decided that dealing with the fallout from such an event was enough without putting the kid through the further trauma of a criminal or civil case. I typed a transcript for a trial in Massachusetts of a “beloved” high school basketball coach who had been grooming and fucking little boys for decades before one of his victims came forward ten or 15 years after the fact. Going to trial means having to relive the horror every day for years.
Jethro Troll
Hail to the Lion, Loyal and True.
Hail Alma Mater, with your White and Blue.
Penn State forever, Molder of men,
Fight for her honor, Fight, and Victory again.
GO TEAM!
kay
@Mnemosyne:
Ah, but that’s not what happened here, is it? I don’t hold people responsible for not reporting “weird vibes”. I’m just expecting staff at Penn State to do what 318 people in this county alone did, last year, which is report suspected abuse. I’d like an honest answer on why they didn’t do that. If they’re all emotional cripples or something, I’m willing to listen. What I’m not willing to do is make them the norm. They’re not.
TuiMel
@Mnemosyne:
I actually wouldn’t have a problem with him being a brand manager for a tobacco company.
Jonny Scrum-half
I am — or was — a big PSU and JoePa fan. I’m obviously sickened by the allegations against Sandusky and the fact that no one did anything to stop him for so long. But because I’ve lived my life as a fan, I keep trying to come up with some reasonable explanation for Joe’s failure to act.
The best I can think of is that his 70-year-old, Roman Catholic and old-school point of view prevented him from fully absorbing what Sandusky was doing, and that it was just easier to pass the buck to the AD rather than take action himself, especially because Sandusky was an old and trusted friend and associate.
I think that’s the best-case scenario for Joe, and even with that I don’t think that it absolves him. I’d love to hear a real explanation for why he failed to act, but I doubt we’re ever going to get the true story. I just know that I’m no longer a fan of PSU football, and I hope that the victims have been able to move on with their lives.
Mnemosyne
@Kola Noscopy:
Yes, let’s take a look at your earlier statements, shall we?
Sorry, but what part of that is supposed to convince us that you’re not a self-justifying pedophile?
Paul in KY
@Jonny Scrum-half: I’d like to know exactly what the graduate assistant told Joe about what he saw in the showers.
Mnemosyne
@kay:
The honest answer is that they did it to protect the athletic program at Penn State. I don’t think anyone, ever, defended that decision as a good or right decision. All we’re saying is that it’s a common decision and it shows we obviously need to continue to work to change people’s attitudes towards child molestation if people who should have known better still decided that their institution was more important than the pain of children.
Angela
@kay: So your experience is with wanting to protect kids within the social services system?
My experience is with adult survivors of childhood abuse, mostly sexual abuse, who are working with the impact of that abuse on their day-to-day lives in the present.
And, in my experience, the myths that our culture believes about sexual abuse, its prevalence, and its impact make that work more difficult.
theBuhjaysus
@Kola Noscopy:
Watch out for the internet tough-guy. Scarewee….
::musses hair:: Now run along little guy.
geg6
@Joel:
The university police DID investigate it back in 1998-99 and took the case to the local DA. Local DA refused to charge Sandusky, saying there was not enough evidence (at this point, it was just inappropriate showering–whatever that is). He subsequently disappeared within a year or so and was declared dead. His laptop was found with the hard drive destroyed and that was the last trace of him.
geg6
@JPL:
These are not the facts. Please get your facts straight.
Mnemosyne
@Kola Noscopy:
Also, too, the only person in this thread perpetuating the myth that all pedophiles are gay men is … you. Weird how that works.
Mnemosyne
@kay:
@Angela:
Honestly, I think the disagreement between the two of you is a false one. You’re both working with victims, but kay is working with the ones who the justice system was able to identify and Angela is (mostly) working with the ones who slipped through the cracks and are trying to deal with the consequences years later.
You’re two sides of the same coin serving the same population at different points in their lives. Can’t we all just get along? :-)
Angela
@kay: I stated clearly in an earlier reply that Penn State officials participated in a cover up. That they were protecting “The Brand.” I haven’t read anyone defending their cover up. I’ve certainly not defended their cover up.
But I am wondering how people can be so surprised that there was a cover up going on, when we are all astute enough about sexual abuse to realize silence and protecting those in power, or the institution, happens? Or do you really believe that there were only 318 instances of abuse last year in a county of 30,000 people?
Gin & Tonic
@Mnemosyne: you know, I read those comments in the original thread, and have re-read them here, and without looking to explain or justify them — and understanding that there is no such thing as legal consent if you’re underaged — the sexual development of pre-adolescent boys is complicated. Some of us who can be honest with ourselves can recall moments, when we were maybe 11 or 12 or 13 and physically able to manifest sexual desire but emotionally incapable of understanding it, when something *might* have been able to happen, even if it didn’t actually happen. I read Kola as saying that regardless of the legal aspect, there’s a wide spectrum of possible responses, from kicking and screaming to some sort of acquiescence or even “voluntariness.” That’s why people like Sandusky, or countless priests or camp counselors or whatever, are supposed to know better – because a pre-adolescent boy has these weird and unexpected feelings and doesn’t know the proper way to respond to them. He may, in fact, “like” them.
We do, in fact, not know what McQueary observed, exactly.
I feel like I need to shower after writing this, but I was once a pre-adolescent boy, too.
No Nic
Wait, being horrified at the abuse of a CHILD is American Puritanism?!??!
Here’s a cluebat to hit you between the eyes with: real Puritans didn’t give a FUCK about child rights.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure a child’s right to bodily integrity (and not to be tortured, shamed, blackmailed, bullied, and raped) is a PROGRESSIVE stance.
But yeah, let’s pretend being a Reddit-libertarian has something to do with being a liberal. No wait… these positions are completely contradictory… mah brane asplodes.
kay
@Angela:
Maybe that’s it. I just think 30 years of education on this has changed the dynamic. If there’s a giant stigma that goes against reporting child abuse, I don’t know how I’m reading all these child abuse complaints. Many, many people seem to be bucking that societal sanction.
I’m not talking about “I just saw a child raped in my workplace”, either. These reports (some) are much more sketchy than that.
I also don’t know about the “not reported” stats. I’d have to know who knew what, when to determine if “1 in 4” was not reported. They have to have something to report. People get nervous and they pay attention, over time. They often have a litany, a narrative. “This and then this and then this”. Put those narratives and reporters together, and there’s cause.
“Not reporting” is different than “not knowing”. If you’re conclusively telling me four people knew but one reported, that’s valid. If we’re just working backward from what happened and saying “four people could have known, one did, and reported” that’s not the same thing.
Kola Noscopy
@Mnemosyne:
You freak. Just as I said, you are willfully misrepresenting: I wrote of ONE SPECIFIC INCIDENT and one specific possibility. You, naturally, represented my suggestion of ONE possibility regarding ONE incident as applying to ALL alleged incidents.
You are a liar and a nit wit to boot. Please, when your meds balance out, take the time to learn how to READ what is written, not what your biases dictate.
Consider yourself punched in that creaking, bone dry special place of yours.
I think your over the top interest in this topic makes it clear to all of US that you drink the blood of children during Satanic sex and bondage rituals in your basement, and are acting out here online in a sad attempt to assuage your guilt. Yes, that must be it.
Fuckwad hysteric.
Kola Noscopy
@Mnemosyne:
Please explain and pinpoint where I asserted that, you fool. Then, when you can’t, have the decency to STFU.
Kola Noscopy
@Gin & Tonic:
Gin and Tonic, pretty much everything you wrote is spot on, but you are not allowed to say that here, don’t you know?
Because…something…
geg6
At least one of the two people who need to go looks like he’s actually going:
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2011/11/09/spanier_expected_to_resign_by_tonight_according_to_reports.aspx
Brachiator
@eemom:
Just not true. There were even Duke professors and administrators, along with many pundits and bloggers who were bloviating about the terrible outrage and the obvious, evident, manifest guilt of the Duke students. There are still fools trying to maintain that they were guilty.
Ironically, this was followed by counter hysteria on the part of conservative dopes who were convinced that the prosecutor bowed to the demands of evil liberals and un American Black Activists(tm) to convict Real White American(tm) Elite college kids (even though not all of the Duke students involved were white).
“Solid” and “belief” don’t belong in the same sentence together. People, including some Balloon Juicers, were just party of an unfortunate feeding frenzy of stereotypes, empty beliefs, and ideologically based outrage based on what turned out to be not only flawed evidence, but outright fabrications and nonsense.
Angela
@Gin & Tonic: Well the body responds the way it was meant to respond. It is one of the nuances of abuse. Sometimes there is pleasure, and it is often combined with that feeling of being used, of being violated. So ambivalence can be the result.
The entwining of having a powerful person pay attention to you, and having that person violate your body, is complicated.
Because of abuse, I learned to orgasm very young. I don’t ever remember a time when I could not orgasm. The impact of that on my life took a while to unravel. Years of therapy and group work.
Once I got some freedom, I quit being an accountant and got educated to partner with others in this kind of work.
Sad_Dem
When I was teaching, I heard that some kids were teasing a girl because her mother’s boyfriend hit her. I called the cops. The mother threatened to accuse me of abusing her child. The child definitely didn’t want me to call the cops, but I told her I had to, because I was a mandated reporter.
Paterno, McQueary (big tall football playin’ guy), and all the others who knew and did nothing are morally reprehensible failures. They are cowards who valued money, power, and prestige more than preventing the rape of children. It is disgusting that they are not all being forced out of their positions of power right now.
Angela
@kay: I’m not talking about non-reported stats. 1 in four for girls, i in six for boys is an accepted conservative stat for number of children that are impacted by sexual abuse.
Angela
@geg6: Good.
eemom
@Brachiator:
What I’m saying is that the “flawed evidence, outright fabrications and nonsense” in the Duke case were ALL obvious from the get go to anyone who was paying attention. As you say, no one was, because everyone was busy rushing to judgment based on their own personal preconceptions.
That is still VERY different from here where the publicly available evidence of guilt is solid, abundant and damning. I just don’t see any “rush to judgment” here. As I asked Burns above, on exactly what set of plausible hypothetical facts were there no crimes committed here? If you asked that question in the Duke case, that answer also was obvious from the get go — the DNA evidence, which is what eventually exonerated the players.
Mnemosyne
@Kola Noscopy:
We all know what you said. I linked to your exact comments so people can read them in full, and they can also read the other things you said in that thread.
Stop defending pedophilia and maybe people will stop thinking you’re a pedophile.
Kola Noscopy
@Mnemosyne:
It matters not a whit to me what a deep, meticulous, exacting, non-hysterical thinker such as yourself thinks about me or anything else.
In cases such as yours I need to step back and remember that your bile emanates from some emotional damage/sickness in yourself and has nothing to do with me.
Which doesn’t mean I won’t continue to call you out. Get therapy.
Mnemosyne
@Gin & Tonic:
There’s always some degree of “voluntariness” with molestation. Personally, I would have been happy to point out in that thread that it’s not unlikely that the victim wasn’t struggling, screaming or crying and in obvious need of assistance because of the dynamics of molestation, which would be part of the explanation for McQueary’s confusion at what he witnessed.
But once Kola Noscopy had poisoned the well with his pedo-friendly “I would have loved to be molested!” bullshit, there was no room left to point out that molestation is complicated and your body can be responding while your brain is screaming, “STOP!”
Mnemosyne
@Kola Noscopy:
I’ve had a lot of therapy, thanks to a sick fuck like you who decided that a child would just love to have sex with him. But, hey, since you would have loved to have been molested when you were a kid, those of us who were damaged by actually having been molested are just repressed lying liars who need to get past our Puritanical notions about sex between children and adults, amirite?
Kola Noscopy
@Mnemosyne:
You are SO full of self serving happy horseshit. You would NEVER have written that in any thread; it goes against the grain of your black/white preferred world view.
And many times the body responds favorably while your brain is also saying, “more, more, more, I love this…”
Both things can be and are true…also true is that you are a sex-phobic psycho idiot who clearly has molested children.
Mnemosyne
@Kola Noscopy:
You just keep digging, sweetheart.
Gin & Tonic
@Mnemosyne: I thought the original comments arose as a response to all the tough guys who were saying they would have beat the crap out of Sandusky if they were in McQueary’s shoes. A legitimate question, I think (and I really think it can only be answered by the professionals) is whether that would really have been the best course of action for the victim at that time. *If*, and understanding that’s a big if, the boy was acquiescing or thinking he was liking the feelings he was getting, from someone he obviously looked up to, would the possible shame of having someone else he knew barge in and make a big scene make him more or less likely to be able to heal from this? I don’t know the answer to that. I’m not suggesting that went through McQueary’s head at the time or even the next day, but I wonder what the answer is, if there is one.
Mnemosyne
@Gin & Tonic:
The comments arose from KC being an asshole who was pissed off that people weren’t talking about Obama’s war crimes. Period.
Kola Noscopy
Yes. This, exactly.
But this kind of rational thinking requires calm discernment, of which the harridan Mnemosyne possesses none.
Kola Noscopy
@Mnemosyne:
hahaha…you see, this is where Mnemosyne now tries to shut down any discussion other than that in slavering agreement with her own warped sense of reality…comical, really…
Kola Noscopy
But now that you bring it up, Mnem, when have you EVER devoted yourself with such spittle flinging passion as you display on this topic, to a denouncing of Obama’s murder of innocents, via drone?
Mnemosyne
@Kola Noscopy:
See, I knew you would try to change the subject as soon as you realized how deeply and humiliatingly you had embarrassed yourself. All I had to do was bait the hook and you just couldn’t stop yourself from biting to try and distract people from your idiocy, could you?
Gin & Tonic
I see this isn’t progressing very well.
Kola Noscopy
hahahahaha….oh….hahahahaha….you silly douche…yes, that’s it my child…hahahaha
Mnemosyne
@Gin & Tonic:
It never does once KC decides to insert himself into a topic and take over the conversation.
Angela
@Mnemosyne: Well said.
Isn’t therapy great?
Doesn’t the reason we sought it out suck?
Mnemosyne
@Angela:
Yes and yes. :-)
Kola Noscopy
@Mnemosyne:
Yes, because we can’t have anyone daring to take part in a discussion and DISAGREE with you, now can we?
All conversations would go oh so much better for everyone if only those who agreed with them would take part, isn’t that so dear?
BTW…you said “insert himself,” tee hee. Your inner pedo is showing.
Angela
@Mnemosyne: I’ve appreciated your comments on these threads.
Mnemosyne
@Kola Noscopy:
I know, it’s so weird how people disagree with you that sex between adults and children is no big deal and we shouldn’t be so uptight about it. Sorry we all ruined your little fantasy that what you’re doing isn’t wrong and the boys you victimize really love it.
slippy
My god. I am not a sports guy, so I have no idea who Joe Paterno is supposed to be. But watching the sports news networks fellate him and obsess over his every tiniest move today while sitting in a Buffalo Wild Wings for lunch, I was revolted. HOUR after HOUR of screen crawls that read like this: “What Joe Paterno Is Doing Right Now.” “Joe Paterno’s Plans for This Evening.” “Joe Paterno Takes A Leak.”
This was Bw3’s, of course, so following any one station was impossible. But the general gist I got was that Paterno had some conection to a child abuse case and was glibly telling people he’d “agree” to retire at the end of this season to save his precious fucking ego.
None of the professional sports reporters (who I think are by far the shallowest people on the planet) seemed to have a notion of Paterno’s criminal culpability or were willing to focus on it. Instead it was all “What’s Saint Fucking Joe Gonna Do Next?”
I was beyond disgusted. This man should be in leg-irons.
Bullsmith
The important thing here is that none of the massive proceeds generated by college football ever taint the innocence of the fine young men who play the game.
Mnemosyne
@Angela:
Thanks! Honestly, if you and others hadn’t been willing to mention that they had some history, I probably wouldn’t have been willing to be forthcoming, especially with a jackhole like KC trying to take over the whole conversation. So I really appreciate that you and bin Lurkin’ were willing to make it a safe space.
gwangung
@Mnemosyne: Well the twerp probably think he’s just pretending to be a contemptible pustule just to get a rise out of people.
The mask becomes the face often.
JPL
@geg6: He called the mother and she taped his conversation. The rest of the info came from the Pittsburgh paper time line. Maybe the police could not use her tape. I haven’t read the grand jury report since Sunday and refuse to revisit it for my own sanity. Here’s a link..http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11311/1188149-143.stm
geg6
JPL @202:
That timeline is incomplete and misleading. The university police turned it over to the Centre County DA and HE’S the guy who declined to prosecute. University police have acted professionally when they were informed. The former DA disappeared, literally, within a few years of the incident, along with his computer hard drive. He’s been declared dead and the case is a cold one.
JPL
@geg6: I just read the story about the DA on the NYTimes. Thanks..
Brachiator
@eemom:
That the prosecution was withholding evidence was not obvious from the beginning, unless you had a time machine (I discount psychics).
What you have here is some very good reporting. This is not the same thing as evidence. And, as in the Duke case, you have in before the public, much that is accusatory.
Obviously, it doesn’t look good, and is very damning. It may not be the complete picture. Again, the bottom line is that people love to jump to conclusions, especially when they think they know all the facts.
Kola Noscopy
@Brachiator:
HOW DARE YOU?!
eemom
@Brachiator:
Still not a fair comparison. Here there was a two year investigation. And by the way, the sworn testimony of the witnesses before the GJ is, in fact, “evidence.” Big time.
Mnemosyne
I’ve finally realized who KC is reminding me of here. Because of course his teenage fantasies about his gym teacher are exactly what being molested by that gym teacher would have been like in reality!
You need to study the diagram, KC.
Chandler W.
Now, the laws are very different. If you are a teacher, as I am, and you are aware of, or are concerned about abuse, you must report it to the state authorities- or be fired.
It may not be easy, but I made two reports. One turned out to be true: a student was being molested by her grandfather. One turned out to be unsubstantiated. A student I taught consistently looked dirty, clothes not washed, often worn inside- out,, no friends. Turns out his parents just did not see anything wrong.
But someone in a position who works with kids, needs to speak out if you suspect something is wrong. Better safe- for all concerned.
Chandler W.
Now, the laws are very different. If you are a teacher, as I am, and you are aware of, or are concerned about abuse, you must report it to the state authorities- or be fired.
It may not be easy, but I made two reports. One turned out to be true: a student was being molested by her grandfather. One turned out to be unsubstantiated. A student I taught consistently looked dirty, clothes not washed, often worn inside- out,, no friends. Turns out his parents just did not see anything wrong.
But someone in a position who works with kids, needs to speak out if you suspect something is wrong. Better safe- for all concerned.
Kola Noscopy
@Mnemosyne:
He wasn’t my gym teacher, he was my basketball coach. Pay attention!
Even at the age of 12, I might have been able to teach that coach a thing or two…
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Mnemosyne:
Ahhh, that explains everything about Colon-O-Scope. He’s a NAMBLA member. No wonder his continual references to the backdoor boogie that are sprinkled throughout his inane diatribes posted here.
Pedo indeed.
Tehanu
@Mnemosyne:
The Kolon seems not to understand something very simple: we’re talking about CHILDREN. Who cannot consent to sex. It doesn’t matter if they “like” it, and his “speculation” about that is just about the most disgusting thing I’ve ever read on the Internet.
Angela
Just read that the Board of Trustees relieved Paterno of his duties tonight. Wow, that is good news.
Kola Noscopy
@Tehanu:
You are an idiot. And obviously you don’t read much on the internet.
But never matter; you just go ahead and do the superior dance.
Kola Noscopy
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
So was I a NAMBLA member when I was 12?
You and Memn would have made great yes men for Joe McCarthy or J. Edgar Hoover.
Fuck yourselves.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@NAMBLA Lobbyist:
I never said at what age but from the way you are talking about it…
ABL
@Emma:
Sure can. Tim, you need a time out. Your comments here and in the prior Paterno threads have been beyond obscene. I’ll leave the decision re: length of the time out to Cole.
Jebediah
@Angela:
Yes, it is, and a little surprising, to me, anyway, that it happened that quickly. I would have bet money that it would have taken longer.
Jebediah
@Tehanu:
This, very much. No exceptions, no justifications, no nothing…children cannot consent. This whole thing is very disturbing, but these “you don’t know that the kid wasn’t enjoying it” comments are sickening.
The assertion that this blog is a den of homophobia is just laughable – don’t we have, like, eleventy-seven openly gay regular commenters? This place has always struck me as pretty gay friendly.
Jebediah
@Jebediah:
I just saw that the university Pres was also booted.