Just watched a testy press conference on CNN in which the Penn State Board of Trustees threw up their first firewall to try to contain the damage of the Jerry Sandusky one-man child rape gang by firing Joe Paterno and the President of Penn State, Graham Spanier. It was testy because the person speaking refused to answer basically any questions, while half of the reporters seemed intent on defending the legacy of Joe Paterno and attacking the board.
Like I said, though, this is just the first firewall, and it will not contain the damage. Reading the reports of the charges, it seems obvious to me that a large number of people knew what was going on and basically did what they could to quietly hush things up while not really addressing the disgusting criminality of the situation. Like every scandal of this nature, it’s just absurd to think that only Spanier and Paterno knew- dozens of people had to know. The next firewall the Board will likely throw up is having Schultz and Curley fired and have the university stop paying for their lawyers, and I fully expect McCreary, the GA who saw the anal rape in the showers and who was rewarded with a coaching spot, to be in the next firing line. And as it always is, the more bodies that turn up, the more links to other people who knew will turn up, and the press will get motivated, and in a couple months we’ll have a clearer picture of what happened. These don’t happen in vacuums, and once the floodgates open and the people involved realize silence is no longer their best option (and that immunity sounds enticing), we’ll get some pretty amazing stories coming forward.
My personal guess is that we’ll find out the dozens of people knew, including people on the board, and that there were all sorts of machinations and bribery involving campus police and who knows what else. We may even learn that this was what was behind the attempts to push Paterno out in the early 2000’s. And best of all, I’ll bet it was all done in the name of preserving JoePa’s legacy.
MMM
Good post Mr. Cole
rikyrah
GOOD
may they all burn in hell for enabling that rapist pedophile
erlking
Let me echo LGM–Good.
JPL
John, Did you hear the question about whether or not there should be a new board because of prior knowledge about the incident? The guy claimed ignorance.
MikeJ
Why didn’t they do this 10 years ago?
robertdsc-PowerBook
Destroy the football program in its entirety forever. Forfeit all games, disband the athletic scholarships, and level the football stadium flat.
darkmatter
@rikyrah: I would rather see these fuckers burn now than later for this. Their behaviour and the behaviour of the students tonight is sickening.
JPL
@robertdsc-PowerBook: At the least build new showers. ugh..
Saturday the students are supposed to wear blue t-shirts that they can purchase with the proceeds going to abused children.
The Daily Collegian is a wealth of information.
Villago Delenda Est
That ship has sailed, and it’s heading straight into an iceberg.
hilzoy
The GA seems to me to have gotten off very easy so far. — I should say that I really do understand that it’s not always easy to do the right thing on the spur of the moment. That said:
He saw Sandusky raping a ten year old boy. He did not stop the rape. Moreover, I looked it up, and it was 9:30pm, which is to say: a time when it makes no sense to assume that a ten year old boy has any way of getting home. That means that not only did he not stop the rape, he *left the kid alone with his rapist, when that kid was completely at the mercy of his rapist, and had no way of getting away.*
Again: I can understand having a total brain freeze. But freezing is one thing; actually *leaving the building* is another. Even if you had somehow left the building, wouldn’t you hate yourself for it, and try to do everything in your power to make sure that that kid was OK, and Sandusky never had the opportunity to rape any other child ever again?
I think it’s just unconscionable.
Brandon
PSU students rally and riot in support of child rape. I am just glad these kids are not black or brown, because you would see a lot different media response than just bemusement at ‘rowdy’ and ‘a few angry students’. College Station, PA is now officially a moral cesspool. And Jeffrey Toobin is a clown, he just said on CNN Intl, “I am not usually in the business of giving my opinion”, just a couple seconds after trying to downplay the scenes everyone could see with their own eyes.
gopher2b
Completely agree. He doesn’t deserve a victory lap. I don’t understand how this could happen. The people I work with (all prosecutors) don’t understand how this could happen. As far as I’m concerned, Paterno and the others are deeply immoral and they concealed this information. Keep in mind, Sandrusky’s locker room rights were taken away; why would they do this unless they were suspicious. And if you’re suspicious, how do you not follow through. Mind boggling.
Amanda in the South Bay
The GA’s name is McQueary.
Anya
I am so disgusted with the stupid and immoral students who are protesting the firing of this criminal. He and others covered up the rape of a child for fuck’s sake. In my opinion he shares responsibility for every child who was raped after that first incident. I am sickened by all this.
zmullls
Michael Vick got a pass on torturing dogs as long as he won football games. It’s a national sickness.
(And it’s great to see hilzoy in the comments, as the voice of reason, as usual)
MattF
What’s been missing at Penn State is anyone behaving like an adult. “I won’t grow up” is not a defense that will stand up in court, although I imagine some will try it.
Bob
@zmullls: MV did NOT get a pass, he went to jail.
Justin Morton
Let me echo everyone else and say great post. Also, I totally agree with hilzoy. The GA has got to go.
What happened to the child he saw in the shower? If I saw what the GA saw, I would be haunted for life. And I have to think that even if I didn’t do something immediately… at some point, I would have calmed down. And I would have done my best to make sure that Sandusky never had another opportunity to hurt another child.
It’s cliche, but really “how does the GA sleep at night?”
Spaghetti Lee
It just makes me sad. Sad, sad, sad. Sad for the victims first and foremost, but sad for Paterno too. He did many good things in his life. I don’t think that praying that he burns in hell solves anything.
I mean, I don’t know, I’ll probably get flamed for this. But one lesson that I’ve been trying to learn is not to judge people too harshly, because you don’t know the situation they’re in as completely as you think. If I were in Paterno’s shoes at that moment, I don’t know what I would have done. I probably would have panicked and tried to find reasons to think that I didn’t actually see what just happened. But I don’t know what I would have done.
Yes, child abuse is one of the most horrible crimes there is. But I will admit to being surprised at the bile I’ve been seen thrown at him, and the whole school. You may not like it, but does it really surprise anyone that some of the PSU faithful are rallying behind him. If someone you had known and loved for decades, someone you thought of as a man of unimpeachable character, was suddenly accused of something like this, wouldn’t you try to find any possible way to imagine it’s not true? Isn’t that kind of how people work?
Like I said, just depressing and heartbreaking.
SiubhanDuinne
Yeah, I know just how they feel.
John O
Hilzoy! Nice to read you again.
People should rot in prison for this. Lots of them.
Brandon
Might I add that the PSU Board are self serving immoral cowards by waiting so long to take action and only after liabilities against the school started piling up. I imagine it was the PSU attorney’s that laid out the situation for them or else I think they would have tried to see if they could get by through doing nothing.
Observer
I went on a road trip to watch a Penn St – Notre Dame game once, back in the day.
All that weekend I distinctly remember all sorts of random people screaming “you say Joe Paw, I say Turno”.
The entire town, they loved them some Joe Paterno. Sadly people with a huge amount of power in a small place seem to eventually let people down.
Every adult related to the football program in the late 90s, at some level, must have known in their heart of hearts that something funky was going on.
This thing, it’s a bad bad thing.
The Republic of Stupidity
@Villago Delenda Est:
Fark that… it’s already on the bottom…
I think I first read about this on Saturday or Sunday…
And I recall my first reaction as being… whoa… now THAT’S ugly…
Then I thought about it and went back and read the article again, and started to really turn it over in my mind… especially the part about ‘allegations going back to 1992’ and ‘Paterno being told in 2002’…
Didn’t take too long to get to the point where I decided Paterno was toast, and deservedly so… and then I just sat back and watched, wondering how long this would take before it ‘sploded completely… less than 48 hrs… behold the power of the Internets!
And now… I have to wonder… can someone be DE-ELECTED from the College Football Hall of Fame?
And how long will it be before the Penn St football program emerges from the Pit of Fire Paterno just tossed it into? Ten years? Fifteen?
gf120581
I can’t begin to comprehend how large the damage will be for Penn State when this is all over. You’re right, this doesn’t end with Paterno. This was systematic and God knows how many people will fall by the time this is over.
I have no sympathies. They knew this sick bastard was raping children and they did nothing or they “kept it in the organization.” It’s the same as the pedophile Catholic priests who just got rotated to different parish when they couldn’t stop playing “Guess What’s Under My Robe?” with the alter boys.
Cassidy
I’m usually not prudish, but can we use sodomize? Just feels wrong to use “anal rape” in relation to children. I know that’s what it is, but just feels wrong saying it. Can’t really explain why. If not, I’m cool. Not trying to be the language police.
GregB
Is there any institution left in this infernal nation that isn’t drenched in shame, humiliation, criminality and cover-up?
Spaghetti Lee
To maybe make myself clearer, it’s not that I think he shouldn’t be punished to whatever extent of the law applies, but that I wish it just never happened in the first place. Juvenile reaction, I know, but that’s about where I am.
SiubhanDuinne
@zmullls:
How did Vick get a pass?
The Republic of Stupidity
@Brandon:
I can only imagine the final dollar amount the settlements will add up to by the time this is played out…
Cassidy
@MikeJ: They weren’t caught 10 years ago.
Martin
@SiubhanDuinne: He’s playing ball again.
Amanda in the South Bay
@SiubhanDuinne:
His career was rehabilitated and he’s a star again.
Mark S.
@hilzoy:
What’s pathetic is that McQueary wasn’t some geeky 21 year old equipment manager or something. He was a former QB on the team and was like 27 at the time. Running away and calling daddy was hardly a profile in courage.
No one’s ever gonna hire this guy to coach anything.
Speedy
@hilzoy: IMO , McCreary is not only a coward , but most likely a whore as well. Awful convenient that he became an assistant coach not too long after that incident. And I also have trouble buying that he didn’t tell JoePa the all the details of what he witnessed.It wouldn’t surprise me to see him roll over and tell the whole story once the hammer drops on him , and he no longer has a career to protect.
MikeJ
@Cassidy: It was known at least as far back as 1998.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@hilzoy:
My wife and I were talking about this tonight and we both think the assistant knew what he should do and panicked, thus calling his dad for advice. His dad gave him a way out and he took it. If we saw a crime we would call the police, end of story. This assistant knew that he stumbled on something explosive and knew the consequences of this becoming public. His career would be over, the football program would be damaged and the school would suffer financially.
The PTB decided that it had to be covered up. The assistant was rewarded for his loyalty and having done the minimum to assuage his conscience. Sandusky had to change his operating plan but was still allowed to operate.
The whole thing stinks to hell.
General Stuck
Penn State is a perfect example of why dynasty’s in sports, or whatever, are dangerous and especially prone to allowing to happen, an unmitigated disaster like we are seeing. That is just mindblowing that it went of so long at a public institution, with so many red flags, as well as witnesses to the crimes, And doubly so when there is a cult of personality figure like Paterno at the center of it all.
Wrapped up in a delusion of success that must go on. When it becomes only a matter of time until the primary mission is to maintain and protect that cult of personality leader. And therefore the dynasty itself becomes more important to protect, than dealing with heinous crimes against children. Dynasties are bad and un American, imo. And this is but one example why.
Cassidy
@Martin: @Amanda in the South Bay: He did his time. What more do you expect? Every man/ woman should have a chance at life after incarceration.
zmullls
Michael Vick got a pass from the fans — and he was given a multi-million dollar job. Had he been less gifted, or if he had been a tight end or kicker or some other non-marquee position — he would never have gotten hired because of his activities. But sport fans have an uncanny ability to look past aberrant behavior if games get won.
Several years ago someone on the Phillies (not the current roster) exposed himself in public to a female bartender. When he was charged, the fans defended him and blamed her.
I’m all for second chances — and Michael Vick deserved a chance to go live a quiet life for himself and make amends. I think he wound up getting rewarded.
There are still plenty of people who are going to defend Joe Paterno and his pension, even though he probably knew about this incident years ago.
martha
@Odie Hugh Manatee: The tragic novel, it almost writes itself. And I agree with John. This is too small a town, too insular, with too much power concentrated in too few hands. There are many others who knew and covered this up. Sick.
darkmatter
@General Stuck: the closest you see now a days is a cargo cult.
Martin
For those that don’t know how universities operate (particularly public universities), there’s some things that Cole assumes the reader to know.
Universities are largely run by committee. They’re run by the faculty. The faculty rotate on and off of committees constantly. Over the span of a decade (as this has gone on), there have been countless faculty sitting on committees ‘overseeing’ athletics, advising the President, and so on. The campus police report to the administration as well, so these investigations would have been reported back through the administration. Not all the details, but enough to report what is suspected and what can be proven. There’s certainly legal council involved as soon as allegations surface. HR will be involved if there’s allegations against a staff member. Ombudsman is likely notified as well.
The sheer tonnage of people that would have intersected with something like this, at one point or another, is huge at a university as large as Penn State, and all of those faculty on those committees would have taken that information with them as they rotated off committee and new ones rotated on. That doesn’t mean there’s liability there, but it’s going to scar the place. Badly. And there’s going to be a lot of people that do have liability there.
And as I said in the other thread, there’s already moves being made to poach Penn State’s best faculty.
Previous university scandals focused on some damage limited to some area – athletics, hospital, research, etc. This damages the entire institution. It calls the integrity of the entire place into question. The faculty will take this very personally.
Mark S.
Geez, Michael Vick isn’t in the same ballpark as this.
SiubhanDuinne
@Martin: @Amanda in the South Bay:
Well, the good FSM knoweth I’m not here to defend Michael Vick, but he did serve two years in combo prison and home confinement, and I believe did a lot of community service. And he may be a “star,” but as far as I can tell it’s pretty tarnished. Again, not to defend him, because I think he’s a scummy excuse for a human being, but I really don’t think he got a pass. YMMV and obviously does.
MikeInSewickley
Frankly, I would like someone to look into the disappearance of Ray Gricar.
Watching on the Net and listening to talk radio, it sickens me how folks are deifying Paterno and then “Oh, they fired the President too”.
Yeah, I’m paranoid but frankly when a program brings in $70mil a year and a DA has info on the 1998 incident, does anyone not at least wonder how he disappeared so completely (except for his laptop which just happened to be in the river with a damaged drive “impossible” to get info from?
What the hell!!
Is it a football team that also teaches or is it a university with a football team?
And we wonder why we can’t compete internationally anymore, can’t make a damn TV or anything that isn’t military, and our kids rank below Hungary in testing?
I can’t stand it…
MikeJ
BTW, KING-TV still refers to this as a “sex scandal”, not a child rape scandal. If you live in Seattle you might call them.
Bullsmith
Personally I find comparing Vick’s actions to walking away from the active, ongoing rape of a ten year old child not exactly spot on.
TaMara (BHF)
@SiubhanDuinne: I’ll probably get crucified for this, but I want you to substitute human being for canine in Vick’s crimes – torture and murder – and see if you think he should have ever gotten out of jail and played ball again. They could not defend themselves and no one came to their aid.
That sickness being addressed, back to the sickness at hand: these people at Penn should go to jail and be subjected to whatever hell pedophiles are subjected to in prison, because as far as I’m concerned they are complicit in this and should face the same punishment. Again, the victims could not defend themselves and NO ONE came to their aid.
Kathy in St. Louis
Congratulations to the Penn State chapter of the Old Boys Club for turning this rape of children crime into some weepy story on the sports legend of Joe Paterno. Sentimentality is just a wonderful thing, but getting all choked up about a football coach who seems to have known for years that Sandusky was a danger to the kids he was running camps for is disgraceful. Apparently the rumors were all over the place and just ignored rather than disproven. It’s the Catholic Church and the Senate Page scandals all over again. Men have to stop looking the other way when their buddies are committing criminal acts so that there won’t be an unpleasant confrontation. Kids suffer when this is the course of action.
Amanda in the South Bay
@Martin:
As well as being physically close knit-didn’t someone say earlier that McQueary grew up with one of Sandusky’s kids?
suzanne
@robertdsc-PowerBook:
Hell, the entire college football system in the country could end tomorrow and I think we’d all be better off for it from a sociocultural standpoint.
I for one believe that the deification of those who possess no skills more worthwhile to humanity than winning stupid kids’ games is the real underlying problem here.
Suffern ACE
Just a question before this devolves into the mess like the other posts. Honestly I don’t care how this affects the football program. Currently there is a trial pending against Sandusky. And separately now there is the issue of the coverup at the school. The grand jury found three eyewitnesses to Sandusky’s acts at the school. The GA for one victim (unknown because unreported) and two janitors to a separate victim (also unknown because unreported). I am going to guess that there were other eyewitnesses. If people know they are going to be fired or prosecuted for coming forward, they might be reluctant to come forward. Should they be granted some kind of immunity at this point if they come forward?
The Dangerman
As a sports fanatic, sad night; excluding the obvious, I do think Paterno is a good guy. His program, again excluding the obvious, never saw a taint of scandal. They took down a renegade Miami team long ago…
…and that leads me to my point that I think has been missed in the uproar. The Dude’s 84 and should have retired a long, LONG time ago. Perhaps even before 1998, when the witnessed rape took place. He’s looked old and frail for many years and his statement yesterday showed that, at 84, he’s not firing on all cylinders.
I agree with Cole, it’s the coverup that matters (again, beyond the obvious) and I don’t think that’s all on Paterno. He reported and I would love to know what his direct superior directed him to do or not do. Maybe he erred, but at 71, he chose poorly for some reason.
burnspbesq
@The Republic of Stupidity:
Far sooner than that, if they make a good hire.
Not a perfect analogy, but Duke played for the national championship in lacrosse in 2007.
shortstop
Two down and a whole lot more to go. Bastards.
PhoenixRising
@Mark S.: Oh, I dunno. Puppy killer, child raper, we’re in the same ballpark in my ethical system: Beyond the pale. One sick mofo. Something ain’t right.
What I would seriously like someone to ask Mike McQueary, ideally during an interview for a coaching job he will not be offered, is:
And if you saw an important coach in this department, someone you looked up to, raping a little girl in the showers–would you need to call your daddy, or would it be obvious what to do next? If the second, ‘what is wrong with you?’ is a question you need the rest of your life to answer. Show your work.
MikeJ
@The Dangerman:
Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the show?
Yes, leave out the kiddy rape and he was a good guy. Give him a fucking medal.
sj660
78=@Mark S.:
@zmullls:
Other than the fact that it’s football what the hell does Vick have to do with this?
Brandon
@The Republic of Stupidity: The first I heard about this was the two officials getting indicted for perjury before the Grand Jury. But this is a college town, not a big world, how long did the Board know about the Grand Jury and how long before that that Sandusky was a suspect or even a person of interest? They had to have known for as long as this investigation was ongoing, which likely has been a long friggin’ time. The issue is not just that they waited to act until their financial liabilities piled up. It has been reported that the school itself is in massive jeopardy from the Feds as both Dept of Ed and DOJ are launching investigations. Its not just the settlements, federal $ are now at stake and a school like PSU probably relies heavily on federal $. If that spigot is affected PSU would probably fail to exist. When you consider how long the Board must have been aware of the allegations and key facts in the case and failed to do anything until the situation spun out of control, it tells you all you need to know about how ‘courageous’ their decision was. When I saw the press conference the only impression I got was that these were people who were in denial and just had an intervention.
Pontiac
Paterno gets no free passes on this. He was the most powerful single individual at the university, and it’s not as though he wasn’t signing off on the way the AD and President and etc handled this.
Spaghetti Lee
I mean, I’m sure this is a childish and stupid way to think, but is it too much to ask that I can just have someone, anyone in the public sphere to root for unequivocally? Is just one hero too much to ask for? Is it just too fucking much to ask that a fucking football coach doesn’t have any skeletons in his closet, that I can root for a fucking football coach without worrying about shit like this, just for a few hours each week? Why does everything have to suck and fail so completely?
BobS
@The Dangerman: No, Paterno isn’t a good guy.
Angela
@Martin: Martin – Are you saying that a percentage of the facility across different academic lines would have known there was a cover up of sexual abuse?
Martin
@Cassidy:
There are millions of people that would gladly trade 23 months incarceration in a federal pen for the life Vick has now.
I don’t argue that he shouldn’t have a chance at life after incarceration. I argue that he should have a chance at a privileged life after incarceration. The NFL is a defined monopoly. There’s an absolutely fixed number of positions out there and a comparably unlimited number of people fighting for those positions. Vick should have lost his slot. If he wants to go off and become a hedge fund manager or a hip-hop artist, fine – he can earn those things, but his shot at taking up a unique slot in the pros should have gone away when he went to prison.
Michael
Much more will come out. Although not a conspiracy nut, I do wonder whether the disappearance of the district attorney will be definitively linked to the scandal. NYT had a pretty good piece today on the guy vanishing.
sukabi
@Cassidy: your brain is trying to ‘clean’ the image… you’re more comfortable with ‘sodomize’ because it doesn’t have to mean forcible anal rape, which is what actually happened.
Nom de Plume
@MikeInSewickley: Frankly, I would like someone to look into the disappearance of Ray Gricar.
Your conspiracy theory misses the mark. Gricar declined to prosecute Sandusky. If any pressure was brought to bear on him by anybody at PSU, it evidently worked, so there would have been little incentive to “disappear” him.
Suffern ACE
@Brandon: To be fair, Brandon, when there is a grand jury investigation going on, that is not the time for the board to launch it’s own investigation and start firing people willy nilly to save it’s ass. The time for that investigation passed in 2002.
soonergrunt
@Angela: It sure reads that way.
Cassidy
@TaMara (BHF): But they weren’t humans. So…If I eat a blueberry muffin, do I suddenly become a monster if I pretend it’s a Smurf?
dead existentialist
In the irony department, PSU plays Nebraska this week, which has its own little athlete-coach scandal with the daughter of the 2-time national championship winning coach facing felony charges for a hit-and-run accident that injured 2 people. She was driving on a suspended license (after 6 tickets in 4 years). Right now, the University (thru that paragon of virtue, Tom Osborne) is trying to get her into a “diversion” program, which will enable her to return to the volleyball team (ranked #2 in the country) before the NCAA play-offs.
Maybe ESPN can hype the game as the Scandal Bowl.
BobS
@Brandon: Probably too much to expect that the Big Ten or NCAA investigates on their own. If ever there were ever a case for another Death Penalty in college football, this would be it.
Mark
@suzanne:
Are you talking about Paterno or about athletes in general?
Because there are a hell of a lot of people far more worthless to humanity than college kids who get $20k or $30k a year to play football. Take down Wall St and the architects of the wars way way way before you start going after the only shot many kids from Compton have at an education and a career.
SiubhanDuinne
@TaMara (BHF):
I was and remain horrified and sickened by what Michael Vick did and what Sandusky did and by the denial, cover- ups, looking the other way, washing their hands of every single person up and down the chain of command. I never said Vick shouldn’t have gotten out of jail or played ball again. I AM NOT DEFENDING HIM! All I was doing was questioning someone who asserted that he got a “pass,” which makes it sound like there were no consequences for what he did. You and I may think that his sentence was too light and that his crimes were too heinous for a penalty of < 2 years in jail ( I'm pretty sure we're in agreement here). But you and I didn't write the sentencing guidelines or serve on the jury or sit on the bench.
MikeJ
@Cassidy:
The sin of Sodom was being unwelcoming to strangers.[1] It had nothing to do with rape.
[1]Ezekiel said: “Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.”
Cassidy
@sukabi: No. I think it’s the deliberate use of coarse language. Children were already brutalized. I don’t think we need to be shocking for the sake of shocking. But, that’s just me.
darkmatter
@Spaghetti Lee: Paterno has a great legacy not only at Penn State, but in all of college ball and it was pissed away because he didn’t act 10+ years ago. He was a god there and now he is a judas goat to some, still a god to a group of idiot students.
Anne Laurie
@Spaghetti Lee:
The thing is, this is why so much abuse goes unpunished. For “normal” people, “decent” people, the impulse is to turn away from something that’s literally sickening. You just don’t want to look, don’t want to think about it… so the self-preservation instinct kicks in, and you start making excuses. “I must have been mistaken. It can’t really have been as bad as it looks. He’s a good man, really he is, pillar of the community. Besides, my daddy used to whip me, well, maybe not like that, but I turned out just fine.” Remember the reaction to the video of that Texas judge belting his handicapped teenage daughter around?
That’s why there are laws mandating reporting of suspicions of abuse for so many categories of professionals. We can’t ask people to make instant judgements, not when we know that our own impulses are not reliable… so we make it a law that doctors, teachers, social workers have to report anything that looks like it might be hinky. Which safety net, unfortunately, is going to catch plenty of innocents as well — keep males from becoming primary-school teachers, get good teachers fired because an angry student lies or a hysterical parent misinterprets a hug or a pat on the back. But it’s also saved a lot of kids’ lives — the rate of “accidental” deaths and serious injuries for children has dropped steadily as more & more states decided that Biblical injunctions are not a sufficient excuse for murder.
Gilles de Rais
All of you wondering why this took so long to break need to keep one number in mind:
One billion dollars in endowments.
That what Paterno made for that school.
Follow the money, it always knows.
Comrade Mary
@hilzoy:
Yes. Yes. Yes. I can understand a totally flustered, non-heroic response IN THE MOMENT. But once you walk away and tell yourself you really saw what you thought you saw, you should do everything in your power to get every possible authority to ask as soon as possible. Letting Paterno sweep it away, and not saying a thing until ten years later to the grand jury, after getting a great job: feh.
I can forgive a moment of weakness, but not ten years of weakness.
That said, every damn person from Paterno up who covered this up is a sack of shit who deserves firing, public shaming, and whatever legal punishments that can stick.
And that child-raper (yeah, innocent until proven guilty: ALLEGED child raper) should get the maximum sentence if and when convicted.
DougJ
@Amanda in the South Bay:
After he did his time in jail. Let’s not forget that. It doesn’t excuse what he did, but it’s important in my opinion that people get a second chance after they do their time.
MikeInSewickley
@Michael: Oh wow!
Today’s Times article said the drive was out of the laptop but found later unreadable and that there was a search history at his home computer on things like “how to wreck a hard drive”…
I am NOT going to follow this line of thought any more as I will next be reading World Net Daily – the home of loon theories…
sukabi
@Cassidy: they were living breathing, feeling beings that were tortured and killed, not a fucking muffin…
your sociopathic slip is starting to show.
The Republic of Stupidity
@burnspbesq:
Duke lacrosse team?
The whole ‘stripper/rape’ thingy?
Wherein the players got acquitted?
I’d be thinking this Paterno mess is far more damaging and ugly…
Kiddie rapers… and covering up for them… that’s the total farkin’ bottom of the barrel, even amongst criminals…
smintheus
@Brandon:
For once, Gov. Corbett may have done something useful by demanding earlier today that the Board of Trustees take decisive action quickly. Corbett is on the Board and I’m sure he didn’t want the scandal to stain his own (strangely) positive public image.
Obviously the Board must have known that indictments were likely. They must have known enough for months and probably for years to have started firing some of these clowns long ago. I don’t understand for example why they still have not fired McQuisling.
burnspbesq
@BobS:
I’m sure you’ll be happy to tell us what repeat violations of NCAA regulations, after a previous probation, are involved here. Or did you not know that that is the only basis for imposing the death penalty?
The Republic of Stupidity
@Gilles de Rais:
I’m not exactly wondering why it took so long to break…
I am astonished that so many apparently intelligent people were willing to look the other way for long, simply because of the money…
MikeInSewickley
@Nom de Plume: I’m not so sure about that.
Given the money involved (remember PSU has the second largest alum society after Notre Dame), I wonder if he had second thoughts, heard new stories about Sandusky or was starting to poke around again? Then alum, locals hear about it…
Remember, the definition of Pennsylvania is Philadelphia in the East, Pittsburgh in the West, and Alabama in the Middle.
sukabi
@Cassidy: what happened to those kids should be seen as SHOCKING, HORRIFYING, and crude and disgusting… using ‘polite language’ to put a pretty face on it only serves to diminish both the value of the child and the severity of the crime.
Sherean
There goes the legacy. If you’re smart enough and talented enough to have one, it boggles the mind to think you’re too stupid to know that you have to do the right thing to keep it. Always.
This whole thing is terribly upsetting. But I have no tears for that university. They are not the victims here. They made choices. There are consequences.
The Spy Who Loved Me
One thing that bothers me is that the Grand Jury investigation took three years. Three years? I would think that they could have come up with enough charges against Sandusky to arrest him in a matter of months, rather than three years. How many boys did he force himself on in the past three years, since the investigation started? Even one is one too many.
Also, how about the people involved in the charity, Second Mile? I find it hard to believe that no one there ever heard or suspected anything about Sandusky’s bizarre interest in young boys.
The Bobs
@hilzoy: That’s exactly what I thought. McQueary should have taken charge of the boy, told him to cover up and tell the boy not to wash himself. Then call the police and tell them to bring a rape kit.
andrewsomething
To all those calling McCreary a coward and a whore, according to the folks in the comments over at LGM McCreary grew up in town and has known Sandusky since he was a child.
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2011/11/the-many-lies-of-joe-paterno#comments
Martin
@Angela:
It depends on how the university is structured, but generally in my experience top Div 1 schools have an athletics oversight board comprised of faculty. That’s a lot of money and public visibility to delegate to staff – and schools like Penn State don’t delegate anything important to staff without oversight. So formally, yes, quite a lot of people would have intersected either with the reports/concerns going upstream through the athletics department or downstream through the campus police, legal council or other governing bodies. You have to think of a university like a city – it’s very self-contained and self-sufficient. Because of that, there’s very little externalization of issues. Even the police are part of the institution.
Separate from that, State College is a relatively tiny place. It’s a town that exists solely because of Penn State. The only news in town is about the campus, and the main gossip in town is going to be about the campus. Unofficially, a lot of people must have known about this – not facts about the case, but that these accusations were out there, what was asserted, the timing of events, etc. A population can quite effectively rationalize away rumors like this when its convenient to do so (see the GOPs continuing support for Cain), but there’s no way that this wasn’t widely known.
TenguPhule
A lot of the people involved in this scandal deserve to be caught by a mob and given their just deserts.
Who knows, there’s enough people out of work that it could happen.
Anne Laurie
@Speedy:
And if it turns out something like that happened to him, when he was an unprotected ten or fifteen or nineteen-year-old? Not that I have any information, except the stats that a lot of people who don’t “properly” respond to witnessing something like this are people who’ve witnessed, or experienced, the same kind of treatment before. There’s so much violence, some of it sexual, going on “under the radar” in our oh-so-modern civilized society, I prefer not to get my full-metal hate on before all the ugly details of any particular incident tumble out of the closets.
Cassidy
@sukabi: I didn’t deny that. But, you said we should imagine they were humans. Fact is they were not. I like dogs as much as the next guy, more of a cat person myself, but they aren’t human. They’re a little further down the totem pole, circle of life and all that.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Oh lord, sounds exactly like Chappaquiddick, doesn’t it?
Sounds like this guy was in a position where doing the right thing would destroy his career. But doing the wrong thing destroys it too, it just takes longer. It must be hard to be aware in a moment when you know everything you have is gone. You can either accept it now, or stall, but sooner or later it’s gone.
sukabi
@Cassidy: you’re getting your responses mixed up. I never claimed dogs were human, but that they were living, breathing, feeling beings…and not fucking muffins.
hilzoy
Photo of McQueary and Paterno. McQueary is one big guy.
Background that makes me sad. Apart from not protecting children from a serial predator, Mrs. Lincoln, he sounds like a nice guy.
Martin
@Nom de Plume:
The more plausible theory is that PSU pressure worked, Sandusky’s behavior didn’t change, Gricar realized the cost of not prosecuting and disappeared himself. If that were to prove true, it’d be almost as bad.
BobS
@burnspbesq: Yeah, I did know that smart ass- I did know that schools are subject to the rarely invoked Death Penalty for violations- sorry, repeat violations- that pale in comparison to what the Penn State football program has been guilty of for the past two decades- enabling and covering up the crimes of a serial pedophile. Are you saying then that the Big Ten and/or NCAA shouldn’t investigate?
Cassidy
@sukabi: Okay, okay, okay…got it. Outrage fairy is outraged and you’ve got your mad-on for someone.
Personally, I find the deliberate attempt to be edgy and coarse to be fake and pathetic. It’s the difference between saying to your significant other that you’d enjoy some form of oral sex vs. suck my dick/ lick my pussy. Of course, you’re saying the same thing just one is intentionally crude and not always called for.
burnspbesq
@The Republic of Stupidity:
No argument there.
That said, I consider it highly likely that the Penn State football team will come out of this mess even more unified and tightly knit than it is now. That’s just how team-sport athletes are. They respond to adversity by reinforcing the bonds that join them. It’s how they are taught to be from the time they start playing team sports.
I’m willing to bet that there have been players-only meetings every day this week, in which the message delivered by the captains has been some variation on “That’s got nothing to do with us/stay focused/the best thing we can do to help the healing process get started is to go out on Saturday and kick some Nebraska ass.”
I’m sure that some will decry this mindset. I’m equally sure that anyone who played team sports at any level beyond Little League or AYSO knows what I’m talking about.
Villago Delenda Est
@Spaghetti Lee:
Human beings are not perfect.
They will fail, to one degree or another.
I’ll agree that this is pretty spectacular fail on Paterno’s part, and on everyone around him in any position of authority at Penn State who knew about this and worked to cover it up.
MikeInSewickley
@Martin: Yes, I agree that is more likely than any nefarious activity. WIkipedia mentions his brother disappeared in 1996 and was found quickly having committed suicide.
So who knows?
Cassidy
@sukabi: Well then, let’s pretend they were muffins.
The Dangerman
@MikeJ:
Fine rhetoric but:
1) Did he rape anyone?
2) Did he witness the rape of anyone?
3) Once told there was a problem, what was he told to do by his superiors?
Dude was at the school for something like 50 years; I worked with one of his players from his first National Championship. I don’t recall much of the conversation, but this Guy revered Paterno. Again, excluding a mess not necessarily of his making, not reported for reasons unknown, I think he’s a good guy.
Flame away.
Angela
@Martin: Thanks for the further explanation. I expected that those in the football program were aware, and I would think there were others with access to the showers and locker rooms who witnessed abuse and did not break the silence, but I did not know it probably was known further too.
burnspbesq
@BobS:
Is there reason to believe that NCAA regulations were violated? If so, which ones?
MikeJ
@The Dangerman:
He told his superiors that his assistant coach was raping children, and the next Saturday when they played, the assistant coach was still there.
If Paterno didn’t want to work with rapists, he wouldn’t have had to.
Villago Delenda Est
@The Republic of Stupidity:
Welcome, to the United States of Mammon. Where EVERYTHING and EVERYONE is for sale, for the right price.
Alison
Well, poor old Paterno can be comforted by the fact that he has none other than that epitome of class, Ashton Kutcher, on his side:
https://twitter.com/#!/aplusk/status/134491868963680256
(In case of deletion if/when Kutcher pulls his head out of his ass): “How do you fire Jo Pa? #insult #noclass as a hawkeye fan I find it in poor taste”
This from a guy who made PSAs against child sex trafficking.
Thankfully, looks like plenty of people on Twitter are giving him mountains of shit. I’m sure he’ll have some mealy-mouthed nonpology ready momentarily.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@Spaghetti Lee: Not a lot of people to root for. Seems like every week there’s another scandal. I did note, though, that the Obama Admin has been scandal-free for three years, a remarkable run.
Of course, the writer also mentioned that not closing Gitmo is a scandal in itself.
But still, there’s one public male who’s managed to keep his pants zipped and his hands to himself.
Jay in Oregon
@Spaghetti Lee:
I’ve said this elsewhere, but even if there were some circumstance that would cause me to walk away from a grown man sodomizing a young boy and do nothing, I cannot imagine how I would live with myself afterwards. I’d either develop a serious drinking problem, or end up eating the business end of a handgun.
sukabi
@Cassidy: ok, and I’ll pretend you’re human.
MikeJ
@Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason:
And you blame Obama for what the Senate voted unanimously against?
joel hanes
@Spaghetti Lee:
Yes, it’s too much to ask.
There has never been a triumphant hero in shining armor with perfectly clean hands; never, in the history of mankind.
Always we have the feet of clay, the snake in the story, some worm in the picture.
So when you’re inclined to feel that someone is that shining hero, it should be a red flag that your emotions have run away with your intellect.
Well over 3,000 years ago, some poets and playwrights in Athens noticed that the very same character traits that raise men up inevitably become the means by which they are finally brought low.
This insight has not become noticeably less true during the ensuing three millennia.
The Bobs
@Spaghetti Lee: “I mean, I’m sure this is a childish and stupid way to think, but is it too much to ask that I can just have someone, anyone in the public sphere to root for unequivocally?”
Elizabeth Warren.
Cacti
Had to be done.
The Trustees need to issue a statement a la Kenesaw Mountain Landis-type following the expulsion of the 1919 Black Sox.
“Regardless of the verdict of juries, no assistant who witnesses a sexual assault on university property, no coach or administrator who receives a credible report that a sexual assault was committed on university property by a subordinate, and does not promptly notify law enforcement, and no individual who facilitates the cover up of a sexual assault committed on university property, will ever be affiliated with Penn State again.”
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@MikeInSewickley: How to wreck a hard drive?? Hmmm. So someone broke into his house, maybe after the fact, and ran those searches and didn’t clear the internet history. Slick, I like it. Is there a timestamp on the searches?
AFAIK, the only way to wreck a hard drive is to take the platters apart and take a belt sander to ’em. A little dunk in the Susky, even with the acid mine drainage, shouldn’t have totalled it.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Martin:
How about if Gricar was paid in some way to decline prosecution and later decided to extract a few more dollars and was ‘disappeared’? There are many possibilities and though I’m no conspiracy theorist, the failure to prosecute, the laptop in the river with the destroyed hard drive and no corpse is awful hard to overlook.
The Dangerman
@MikeJ:
I think this is missing something vital; Paterno didn’t know his Coach was a pedophile. He didn’t witness the rape. Then it falls into innocent until proven guilty…
…which is where the whole damn thing started. The GA should have sacked up and called the Police, an investigation should have been done, evidence taken, etc.
Bottom line, from what I’ve read, I find the GA more culpable in this matter than Paterno.
Punchy
ESPN showing massive crowds and riots in downtown State College right now. Unfuckinreal.
MikeJ
@The Bobs:
The “primary Bernie Sanders” crowd has already decided Warren is insufficiently pure since she supports the Kenyan usurper.
stormhit
@PhoenixRising:
I know everyone is enjoying the rage that this clearly black-and-white issue allows them to engage in, but why is it so hard to at least acknowledge that the human mind isn’t a perfect recording device?
Hypothesizing here, obviously, but the dude probably walked in and glimpsed something, walked out- likely out of general weirdness in catching someone engaged in something sexual with anyone- and immediately began to doubt what he saw. That could also be why he didn’t go straight to the police…nobody wants to potentially fuck up someone’s life by reporting something that might not be accurate. That would also explain why Paterno is claiming that the initial reports were vague.
It’s not likely that he stood there in the locker room drinking the scene in, yet everyone’s acting like that’s exactly what happened. We’re probably talking a split second glimpse, with the details he provided in the grand jury report coming from being able to fill in the blanks much later with established facts.
There’s obviously no way to know exactly what went down unless he comments on it, so I’m open to changing my opinion on this if it turns out he really was totally aware in the moment of what was going on. But plenty of people seem absolutely sure they’d be all-seeing heroes with perfect perception and recall. Reality rarely plays out like that.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason: “AFAIK, the only way to wreck a hard drive is to take the platters apart and take a belt sander to ‘em.”
Drill the casing through to the discs and pour some muriatic acid in.
Drive destroyed.
BobS
@burnspbesq: I’m afraid I don’t share your authoritative grasp of the Big Ten/NCAA rulebooks- I would have to defer to you for that- but offhand I would guess they contain something about the moral and ethical standards they expect of their member schools. I would expect that covering up the crimes of a serial child rapist and allowing him access to the facilities (most recently 2009) accompanied by potential victims might violate those guidelines.
Speedy
@Anne Laurie: The whore comment was in reference to the possibility that he parlayed his knowledge of what happened into an assistant coach position. That would also possibly explain his failure to raise holy hell when he saw the sick bastard molesting a 10 year old.
But you bring up a good point that he might possibly have been molested himself as a child. Someone up thread brought up the fact that he was raised around Sandusky and his children , so it’s not out of the realm of possibility that he was himself molested by Sandusky.. That would go a long way towards explaining his initial reaction.
joel hanes
@Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason:
The Obama Administration has done essentially nothing to restore the rule of law from the debased state to which it was driven during the reign of Bush the Lesser. In fact, the administration has several times acted specifically to protect the bankers who systematically flouted several kinds of law in creating the mortgage mess (If I were to forge a signature “notarizing” that I had examined documents that I had never seen, I’d go to jail. The banks did this millions of times.) Alice Martin and Leura Canary are still US Attorneys. Karl Rove and Harriet Meiers defied Congressional subpoenas, and got away with it. Lynde England went to the brig; Cheney and Rumsfeld and General “Gitmo-ize” Miller walk free.
If you don’t think that’s a scandal, I don’t know what to say.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@TaMara (BHF): I had no idea this scandal also touched the Ivy League!
MikeJ
@The Dangerman: PAterno knew the guy was still there working for him. Wasn’t the least bit curious about that kiddy rape business he had passed along? Never thought to ask a single question after he was oh so dutiful in passing the info on?
I won’t get into who is worse than whom. Don’t know, don’t care. There’s no reason not to assume they’re all evil.
The Republic of Stupidity
@stormhit:
Self-righteousness would appear to be quite intoxicating…
How bad are the hang overs?
John Cole
When you strike at the king, you must kill him.
Cassidy
@sukabi: I told you. I get it. You’re outraged and you gotta lash out at someone. It’s okay. I ain’t mad at ya. Just realize your weakness and work on it.
stormhit
@The Republic of Stupidity:
I fail to see how I’m being self-righteous when I’m the one that’s refusing to call the witness who reported something a monster.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@suzanne:
What do you think of the acting profession?
Lancelot Link
People treat football like a religion, then they’re surprised when the coaches act like the Catholic hierarchy.
Cacti
@The Dangerman:
Jerry Sandusky wasn’t just any old assistant. He was “JoePa’s” right hand man and personal friend for more than 30 years. He was also first in line to be his successor as head coach. The fact that he was quietly given emeritus status and removed from consideration for future head coach should have let Paterno know that something was seriously wrong. But he was content to see it swept under the rug.
Brandon
@smintheus: I didn’t know that Gov. Corbett was on the Board, so basically they had to act for political reasons. It is still not a profile in courage. My only point is quite simple, the Board has had to have known about the police investigation since it began, and since Gov. Corbett is on the Board, there is basically no way that they wouldn’t have known. While a case could be made to wait for the legal process to play out and you cannot assume that your employees that are subpoenaed will perjure themselves, but at the same time the university indemnified these guys even after they were indicted of perjury. Committing perjury is not an official act of office that should have been eligible for indemnification in the first place. That was something that should have happened at the very least if these people had a functioning moral compass. They didn’t do the ‘right thing’ until it was clear to the world that PSU would be facing millions in civil liability, as well as potential losses of hundreds of millions more in federal funding.
So we know for a fact that the culture of corruption at PSU encompassed the football coaching staff, AD, administrators, police, local DA, President, Board of Trustees and now even a substantial number of students. Based on this knowledge, I quite frankly have no compunction about concluding that there is a high likelihood that other forms of immorality and corruption pervade other departments at PSU as well. Would I now hire a PSU grad? Its unlikely because I’d be wondering the whole time whether they were morally suspect based solely on this question. I’d have similar reservations regarding tenured PSU faculty and whether they have somehow been influenced by a morally bankrupt institutional culture that started at the very heights of the university. Fairly or unfairly, PSU is now tarred and will be so for a very, very long time.
The Dangerman
@MikeJ:
As expected, the story, if the NYT is accurate, isn’t that simple. After the GA reported, there WAS a police investigation and, somehow, Sandusky was cleared. Now, I don’t know how he was cleared, but, if I’m Paterno and I get a police report saying a Coach didn’t rape a kid, that might influence my decision making.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@The Republic of Stupidity: I think his point was that the coach was dismissed, key players kicked off the team and their season canceled amidst the controversy. Then they came right back as a program. Possibly could happen at PSU with the right hire…
Martin
@Angela: Let’s put the size of the place in context.
Penn State has about 2700 faculty at University Park. Probably another 5,000 or so staff – everything from athletics to landscaping to police to lawyers. The town itself is about 30,000 population. The college is bigger than the town by a fair degree. It’s basically in the middle of fucking nowhere.
Now, I work at a place about the same size, but State College is the size of the neighborhood covered by my homeowners association. Those are small enough populations for everyone to know everyone else’s shit. And faculty are very self-interested. They literally run the place, and they make any university business their business. There are no real secrets.
FWIW, I think the football team will recover relatively quickly. I don’t think the rest of the institution will, though. The faculty that are there are going to be deeply embarrassed by this. The more prominent ones will leave. Attracting faculty just got a LOT harder. Filling these administrative positions may prove damn near impossible. Alumni giving is almost guaranteed to crater. The institution will be massively distracted with all of this legal business. There had to be rumors swirling and now everyone is going to cast a suspicious eye on those that they heard the rumors from. Big campuses in small towns have a very tight fabric and theirs is going to seriously unravel.
bin Lurkin'
I tried to be a team sports player in HS, frankly the vibes were creepy to me, didn’t like it at all, didn’t like pep rallies or any of the rah rah go team shit. It didn’t help my perception that a big percentage, possibly the majority, of the jocks were big time assholes who got off on kicking around the geekier kids such as myself.
When I did find my sport it turned out to be motorcycle road racing, honestly I’d trust a bunch of racers far more than a an equivalent number of football players, racers for the most part just don’t have that hive mind mentality that seems to go hand in hand with at least some team sports, particularly football.
I’d never even heard of Joe Paterno or even PSU before this hit the news and now I wish I never had.. This whole subject really is one I have an even more visceral reaction to than most guys for reasons I explained in an earlier thread.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@MikeJ: Please note I said “the writer” and not me, who claimed that not closing Gitmo was a scandal.
Back on topic, after Tiger Woods and Jesse James I began to despair of my gender. One was married to a Swedish bikini model, the other to (be still my heart) Sandra Bullock, and THAT’S NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU!!!!!!
Suffern ACE
@The Dangerman: There wasn’t a police investigation in that case, but it appears a kind of investigation conducted by the school’s business officer (Schultz) who was in charge of campus security among other duties. If Sandusky was cleared, then why would you keep the GA on staff who had accused your long time friend and colleague of rape?
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
I love this blog. So much expertise.
Anne Laurie
@Jay in Oregon:
And people are already speculating about that district attorney.
The other possibility, statistically, is that if you didn’t end up raping children yourself (“but only when blackout drunk”), you’d end up living with/married to/defending other child-rapists. Abuse is contagious, and it kills & cripples even at second- or third-hand.
Tried not to pay much attention to the details of Michael Vick’s case, but I do remember that he (and many of his defenders) seemed genuinely not to understand that there was anything wrong with torturing dogs. Illegal, sure, but “everybody” respected dog-fighting, it was a very manly “sport”, and there was good money to be made when you had the funds to set up a really professional facility. As far as I can tell, the major part of Vick’s rehabilitation consisted of teaching him that his “beloved” dogs had the right not to be tortured, not even if “they were natural fighters” who “loved their pit time”. From all I’ve read, the rehabilitation process for convicted child-abusers and spouse-abusers and rapists is not so very different — 99 times out of 100, people believe what they’re told by their immediate community, even when that community believes in something that sickens the rest of us.
Punishment needs to be a part of the process, but “you need to understand why raping kids is wrong” is way more effective than just “if we catch you raping kids, we’ll throw you somewhere you’ll get raped on a regular basis, so be sure you don’t get caught.”
Tom Ames
@Spaghetti Lee:
Really? You really don’t know what you would have done when confronted with multiple lines of evidence suggesting that an employee of yours was a serial child-rapist?
Again, really? Cause I gotta tell you, as a parent I think a lot more shit ought to be headed his way.
And the psychopathic PSU faithful who would rather just ignore reality in order to keep their fantasy going? Those sick fucks who, with Peggy Noonan want nothing more than to Keep Walking?
Fuck them too.
The Other Chuck
You know how you make a hard drive unreadable? Write any data over it.
Every supposed tale of “ghost data recovery” is theoretical. No data recovery outfit has ever demonstrated it actually works in practice.
Secure outfits destroy the platters so they don’t have to trust that someone actually ran the wipe program, or didn’t back up as it ran. Plus it’s faster.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Punchy:
What the fuck is the matter with those people? Would being expelled from school give them some perspective? Probably not, they’d like just whine about being picked on for sticking up for their “hero”.
Cacti
@Brandon:
The depths of said moral bankruptcy can be summed up by the following facts:
1. Jerry Sandusky was still holding overnight camps at PSU as recently as 2009.
2. He still had access to the campus as recently as 1 week ago.
Gordon, The Big Express Engine
@John Cole: I prefer Omar’s take on this myself.
Spaghetti Lee
@Tom Ames:
I’m just trying to be honest with myself about how I feel.
The Dangerman
@Suffern ACE:
NYT interviewed both of the cops; one said no comment and one gave information. Again, if the NYT’s is accurate, someone more than this business officer was involved.
No idea. Hopefully, whatever happened, and I suspect it’s a mess of mammoth proportions, will mostly come out in time. Right now, I’m not going to tar and feather anyone (now that I’ve read the NYT, including the GA) until all the facts that will come out, do come out.
That the DA that was involved in the clearing of Sandusky disappeared is fascinating. Making no observations beyond that point as to why he disappeared.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@bin Lurkin’: Not a team sport player myself, either. When I found a HS sport it was Cross Country, where the goal is not only to beat the other team, but to beat all your own teammates as well.
Talk about your raging individualists.
The Republic of Stupidity
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine:
That might have been his point… AND… kiddie raping is pretty much the most heinous thing you could be accused of… and if it does turn out to be true, which it does appear to be at this point… it’s hard to believe ANYBODY associated w/ this mess will even work again, at least under their current name, and certainly not at Penn…
Mark S.
Shit, Paterno knew why he was no longer under consideration for succeeding him. There is no way in hell Paterno didn’t know about the 1998 allegations.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason:
It’s the coating on the discs that has to be destroyed, the rest is worthless. Muriatic is good for that. Use nitric acid if you want metal dissolving.
Gex
@Cassidy: For what it’s worth, if you require other people to change how they behave for your comfort, that is for you to deal with. What is the point of coming on the board and telling everyone you’d really we rather speak the way you want us to speak?
ETA: Your perspective (unnecessary, intentionally crude) are just that. Your perspective. You keep speaking like those are known facts.
The Republic of Stupidity
@stormhit:
Really?
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@The Republic of Stupidity:
Ahem. That’s Penn STATE, not Penn, which is the private University of Pennsylvania, Ivy League, in Philly.
Eric U.
criminals don’t tolerate child rapers, it’s a very dangerous reason to be in jail. On the other hand, the administration of Penn State was just fine with it.
The Republic of Stupidity
@Gordon, The Big Express Engine:
And too also…
Again, the Duke accusation turned out to be false, whereas this situation doesn’t seem so… perhaps when it’s all over, Paterno will turn out to have been falsely tarred, but when you’ve got allegations going back nearly 20 years…
Cassidy
@Gex: I felt it was a suggestion of decorum. Consider that I’ve said on several occasions that I have a lot of respect for the large number of highly educated people on here, I just felt that we could do better as a community. I also made it clear that it was a simple request and not something I would be worked up about. I’m not mad at anyone. I’m not above crude and coarse language. Considering the context, I felt the voyeuristic nature of the wording was inappropriate. YMMV.
The Republic of Stupidity
@Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason:
Yes… I KNOW…
I’m LAZY this time of night…
Gex
@stormhit: Because at the end you are still dealing with the fact that a lot of adults employed by Penn State knew of or had reason to suspect Sandusky was raping children on the premises. And after 5 or more additional years of him taking kids on to the campus you might start to ask yourself why no thorough investigation was conducted. Certainly you would have been asked to report on what you know. What the GA reported should be on record at the college if they ever bothered to investigate. So should Joe Pa’s. Again, after not being approached and continuing to see Sandusky bring kids into your facilities in an office you let him keep, you should maybe you could follow up on the report you made.
Cacti
The cog dis from the JoePA faithful is pretty amazing…
-He is JoePA! He is the winningest coach in college football!
-He is a leader of men and a molder of character!
-He is a living legend!
-He is Penn State!
…but it’s just not reasonable to expect him to do anything other than report an alleged sexual assault that took place in the football facilities, by a member of his staff, to the Athletic Director, sit back, and never ask about it again.
Lysana
@stormhit:
WRONG. He stated for the record that he saw AND HEARD what was happening long enough for both victim and rapist to see he was there, THEN he left.
Kindly shut up.
Gex
@Cassidy: They were raped. It doesn’t need to be softened. Decorum and etiquette are an rather obnoxious when thrust upon you rather than adopted eagerly.
Joey Maloney
@Lancelot Link: I thought nothing good could possibly come out of this situation, until I read this comment. FTW.
Suffern ACE
@John Cole: Well, there’s that and the fact that it would have been helpful for Sandusky to either to abuse the boys in the middle of well lit rooms full of people, or leave a bunch of physical evidence all over the place. Maybe if he had kept a diary with names so that everyone could be tracked down and that those people over the course of time wouldn’t have moved around, or joined the army, lied about what they knew. I wonder how well this second mile charity was at keeping records of the boys the coach took to games and overnight stays at his house or out of town?
Martin
@stormhit:
They don’t need to be all-seeing heroes. Situations like this need to be reported, and reported quickly and widely.
JoePa and most of the others named in this situation aren’t private citizens that can file a report and walk away. They’re policy officers of the institution. Their job is to see this through. Not seeing things like this through by the staff are the difference between a VATech incident and not having one. It’s an institutional responsibility and it’s part of their responsibility to the institution.
Sorry, but there’s a different attitude when students and minors are in the charge of the institution, and it doesn’t permit reports like this to merely be passed along until they are definitively proven to be untrue. That didn’t happen.
Gex
@Gex: But where would we be without the self-appointed scolds of this world?
Moonbatting Average
@burnspbesq: Seriously, what the fuck is up with you continuing to equate this with the Duke lacrosse mess? Is it some kind of tic, or disorder? Are you a Duke fan who doesn’t think that justice was served?
I’m honestly curious, and I’m hoping that I’m not falling for some elaborate troll.
The Republic of Stupidity
Know what’s really weird here?
If Joe and the Penn St admin HAD dealt w/ this appropriately 10 yrs ago, or even earlier – when they first found out… no one would have ever thought badly of THEM…
Once Sandusky started talking back to the demons in his head, he was on his own… and it would have been totally appropriate to toss him to the law at that point… and that would have been the reasonable end of that mess for Paterno and his program.
So easily avoidable… and now so damning…
stormhit
@The Republic of Stupidity:
Yeah, I still can’t follow what you’re so bothered about. Oh well.
I’m not calling anyone out…I mean,this isn’t the only place on the internet discussing this topic. Is it really controversial that a lot of people responded in that way?
At any rate, I just read that NYT piece that others mentioned and I’m already less forgiving. It makes it sound like he knew exactly what happened as it was happening.
Martin
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
I have a hard drive shredder at work. It’s awesome. Bit pricey though.
RalfW
Sorry if this is already upthread – just got here and can’t slog thru 175 comments as it’s already past my bed time.
But the Beaver County Times was already asking questions this past April. Our crack national media gets on this, what, 7 months later?
http://www.timesonline.com/columnists/sports/mark_madden/madden-sandusky-a-state-secret/article_863d3c82-5e6f-11e0-9ae5-001a4bcf6878.html
The Republic of Stupidity
To all of you who are giving stormhit the spanking he deserves, thank you…
Like I said, I get lazy this time of night… yer all doin’ a great job…
The Republic of Stupidity
@stormhit:
And I’m not surprised that you don’t get it…
Cassidy
@Gex: Oh for fuck’s sake get over yourself. It was a suggestion. If you want to get your brain in a lather then please fap away to “anal rape”. If that’s what gets your gears grinding, go for it. Personally, I’m not into overtly sexual statements in the context of talking about children. Not really my thing. I like to think that educated people are more than able to get their point across without that particular crutch. But once again, just a suggestion. Not really worked up about it.
Your perspective is shit. I hate that new-agey, psychobabble shit. It’s mealy mouthed bullshit.
stormhit
@The Republic of Stupidity:
And I’m the self-righteous one.
I should note that I was narrowly defending McCreary’s potential recollection of events, not the coverup.
So no Lysanna, I won’t shut up. Your point had absolutely nothing to do with what I said. Keep being enraged on the internet though.
stormhit
@The Republic of Stupidity:
I don’t get it because you’re aren’t saying anything other than being an obnoxious troll.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Cassidy:
Uh, what? Really? You’re suggesting he (?) enjoys the idea of “anal rape”?
The Republic of Stupidity
@stormhit:
Nice try… no cigar…
Cassidy
@Gex: Okay, I’ll play your silly game. So I’m sure he didn’t just have a thing for brutal anal assaults on children. Were they mouth fucked? Face fucked? Skull fucked? How far you want to go here?
Fuckstick. Don’t fuckin’ bother to respond. Now I am pissed. I gives a flying fuck what people want to say. I made a simple request. I also made it clear it wasn’t the end of my world. Most people ignored. Two jackasses decided that they had to argue for it, somehow needed the voyeuristic pleasure of talking about children and anal rape in the same sentence. Piss off.
Alison
@Cassidy: Oh, come off it. No one is saying we should use the word “rape” because they’re *getting off on it*, you jerk. In the same way that I get pissed off when journalists call rape a “sex scandal” or an “unwanted advance” or “inappropriate sexual conduct” or whatthefuckever, if people want to use the term rape to describe this situation *which was in fact rape*, then they should. You implying that they’re doing so not out of a desire to call this crime what it is but because they get their rocks off to it makes you the asshole here, not them.
Tissue Thin Pseudonym (JMN)
@Brandon:
It’s more complicated than that. Corbett was the Pennsylvania Attorney General at the time. Effectively, he was the guy running the investigation. That probably put a lot of limits on what he was allowed to tell the other Trustees.
I dislike Corbett as much as the next Democrat, but all of the indications are that he’s one of the good guys in this instance.
Cassidy
@Alison:, @The prophet Nostradumbass: He’s the one who feels the need to use the language. Somewhere, in that lizard brain of his, he(?) has decided that they can’t possibly talk about the rape of children without viscerally describing it as anal rape. Not my baggage.
CaliCat
Dangerman – If you really believe JoePa knew nothing about Sandusky’s little hobby of raping children, I have a big, red bridge in San Francisco I’d like to sell you.
gwangung
@Cassidy: Dude, you’re not making a whole lot of sense.
Maybe sleep on it?
stormhit
@The Republic of Stupidity:
Self-righteous: The brain is quirky, so it’s entirely possible that his recall of events didn’t go smoothly in a traumatic experience. It’s silly to expect otherwise, people aren’t perfect. Need more info to be certain whether he really fucked up bad or has an excuse concerning his response.
Totally Rational Internet Elite: We’ve got a context-free grand jury fact report and snippets of quotes from people that know him…clearly McQueary is a monster! String that fucker up!
The Republic of Stupidity
@stormhit:
And would you like some chips w/ that dip?
Cassidy
@gwangung: I’m good. Just irritated that something simple and unimportant got blown up because someone felt his right to describe rape in detail was infringed. People like that really aggravate me. It’s that whole Dane Cook, “look at me, I’m edgy and cool. I didn’t comb my hair, look how cool that makes me” thing. Annoys the piss out of me.
BonnyAnne
@Cassidy:
I’m not certain many things horrify me more than having to type out the words “child” and anal rape” in the same sentence. Presumably it would be harder were it in the context of “MY child” and “anal rape.” So please don’t assume that I’m replying out of any sort of lizard-brain entertainment. (I’m going to go out on a very small limb and say that I speak for the entire Balloon Juice community here.)
All people are trying to say is that sodomy is an archaic term for a consenting sexual act between two adults. Rape is entirely different, and has nothing to do with sex. It is power and cruelty, and that is a very significant difference. Therefore, calling Sandusky’s behavior sodomy would be a lie.
We are adults, and we do not need to shelter ourselves from the terrible realities of life. Would you feel comfortable if we simply described Sandusky as raping the boy? Slightly less graphic, but no less accurate.
Kane
Interesting how this all publicly unfolded only after Paterno became the winningest coach in major college football.
MikeJ
Can’t we call it what it was? An unrequested penile surplus.
The Dangerman
@CaliCat:
I don’t believe he knew nothing about it.
I don’t believe he knew about it.
I don’t have enough facts to make a judgment. Funny how that works.
If you want to sell me a bridge, bring the proper paperwork.
The Republic of Stupidity
@stormhit:
Who said I was bothered?
You, on the other hand, apparently have no idea when to stop digging…
Cassidy
@BonnyAnne: I can get with that. Maybe sodomy was the wrong suggestion. Rape is definitely more accurate. But, this is what lead to this waaaaaaaayyy back in the beginning. What’s so wrong with simply saying rape? What need is fulfilled to say anal rape? Other than the need to be seen publicly using deliberately visceral imagery to show how cool you (generically, not you specifically) can be in the crowd, I don’t see a point.
As I’ve said, the large majority of people on here are highly educated, professional people. And a certain portion are, not directly related to being educated or professional, are hipster douches. And of course, we all have our own lines in the sand. This is not one of mine. I simply felt that this kind of descriptor was beneath this community. Maybe I was wrong. Once again, I wasn’t mad at anyone and had no intention of being so.
And I admit to being deliberately attempting to piss him/ her off at that point, so don’t read into the fapping comment.
CaliCat
The people defending that old fart Paterno and calling him “a good guy” are going to feel really stupid for doing so as more and more sorted details come to the fore. Paterno is not a hero or a god. He’s a selfish, amoral coward. His stupid, meaningless football program trumped the lives of helpless, innocent children – absolutely fucking stomach turning.
stormhit
@The Republic of Stupidity:
Ellipses at the end don’t make it seem like your pointless comments have weight behind them. They’re still just as pointless.
It’s also a hilarious thought that someone out there thinks there’s such a thing as “digging” on an internet comment thread. Frankly, given that I knew I was making a controversial narrow argument and I only got one dissent, two related responses that I actually agree with, and one utterly boring, witless troll– that’s not too bad, really.
CaliCat
@The Dangerman:
Read the Grand Jury Report, smart guy. Paterno admits to the meeting with McCreary when the rape was discussed. There are plenty of facts available to you if you want to open your eyes and see them.
Spaghetti Lee
@Cassidy:
You know, I don’t disagree with what you’re trying to say, but I think you kind of lost the thread at some point. “Hipster douches”?
Cassidy
@Spaghetti Lee: Eh. People piss me off.
Mnemosyne
@Amanda in the South Bay:
If that’s the case, and we look at what seems to be a very long history of Sandusky molesting young boys … yeah, McQueary just might have a very personal reason for his extreme shock and inability to act when he saw Sandusky raping a kid.
Here’s my question: it’s now coming out that Sandusky was molesting kids during sleepovers at his house. Where in the fuck was Mrs. Sandusky during all of this?
wk
Just a comment on the students’ reaction. First, I agree that demonstrations to defend JoePa in this instance are pretty awful. At the same time, they’re kids who have also suffered their own loss and they’re in denial. Many went to Penn St to enjoy their 4+ yrs there… and football and the legend of JoePa are a huge part of what they thought they were getting. Now that’s all gone and their college experience will be markedly different. Obviously, this victimhood is relatively meaningless; nonetheless, I think this loss goes a long way toward explaining the student riots. Hopefully most will soon get past the denial and come to their senses.
Mnemosyne
@Mnemosyne:
And just to be clear, yes, my speculation that McQueary could have himself been one of Sandusky’s victims is 100% conjecture and speculation on my part with no evidence whatsoever. McQueary’s reaction could have been based solely on the fact that he had just seen a man he’d known his whole life raping a child and couldn’t believe his eyes.
Let’s just say that if McQueary came forward as a childhood victim at some point, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least.
CaliCat
I know we like to call anyone under the age of 25 “a kid” but these students are not kids. The more society keeps defining young adults as kids the more they will continue to lag behind in emotional growth. Our young adults entering the military are not kids, they are young men and woman and they act like young men and women. These over-pampered young adults protesting at Penn tonight do not act like adults – they act like babies throwing a tantrum. What a sad commentary on this segment of America’s 17-24 year-olds.
ranger3
@CaliCat: There are a number of problems with the way that people in our society judge maturity as it relates to age. For one thing… the fact that a person has not reached the age of majority does not necessarily make them a child. A child, to me, is someone less than 14. This is a general statement of course. But it is more or less valid. From 14 to 18 there is a phase where a person is neither a child nor an adult. It is necessary to consider the fact that females mature slightly faster than males, also. Many Americans would be horrified to find that in Germany 16 is considered old enough to drink, smoke and consent to sex. But then many Germans would be shocked to find we let 16 year olds drive on the freeways. We seem to have different priorities when it comes to protecting young people.
None of this has anything to do with what happened at Penn State, as far I can tell. If this creep was molesting 12 year old boys then he should burn in hell, and if people knew about it they should go down with him. I hope for a full and fair investigation and that the guilty are held accountable.
TuiMel
@Mnemosyne:
This very question has been haunting me. Maybe she was smashed on liquor or pills. I think I read somewhere that she attempted to contact one of the victim/witnesses prior to his grand jury testimony. Want a list if victims? I think the wife knows.
CaliCat
@ranger3: Your points are well taken.
AxelFoley
@zmullls:
Doing time in jail is getting a pass? Who knew?
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@MikeJ:
No. The assistant coach was the one who reported it to Paterno. By this time, Sandusky had retired.
@Mnemosyne:
It was in most of the victim’s stories in the presentment. About time the news noticed that.
Also in the presentment was that Mrs. Sandusky tried to call one of the victims in the weeks before his testimony. And Sandusky. And a known family friend. All leaving messages that they needed to talk to him about an urgent matter.
Jebediah
@Cassidy:
Well they weren’t fucking blueberries either!
Yevgraf
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
That’s my theory. A conservative body like the Penn State Alumni Association would surely have some go-getter entrepeneurial sorts who have no librul namby-pamby whimpers about doing what is needed to get the job done.
estamm
I am against capital punishment. Except for child rapists.
El Cid
A few children raped or molested is a small sacrifice made to continue a societal rarity and precious national resource — a winning college football team.
In our history, we’ve often had the guts to sacrifice some things for the greater good.
Now is one of those times.
salacious crumb
Unbelievable, just un fucking believable what happened at Penn State..the guy sees a kid being raped and he calls his fucking dad? I agree with Mr. Cole’s comments.
That said, its no surprise…America has turned into a moral cesspool. We cheerfully rallied and enabled an illegal invasion of Iraq under false pretenses, put our soldiers under harms way, enabled killing of at least 100,000 Iraqi civilians and in essence at least enabled the destruction of that country. And we have yet to apologize for that.
So its no surprise that the powers that be at Penn State thought they could get away with this in order to preserve their wealth, status and power. After it was some poor nameless kid who didnt have the wealth or talent to add to their coffers. JoePa and Sandusky had it, so they were protected.
debit
@Alison: He’s deleted it.
Paul in KY
@Cassidy: A blueberry muffin can’t feel pain & terror. A puppy dog (and a kid) can.
debit
@Paul in KY: After reading Cassidy’s responses, I think trying to explain the concept of empathy is a waste of time.
Original Lee
@hilzoy: This. Thank you, hilzoy.
Bex
@Spaghetti Lee: I think that deep down in their gut most people know they should do the right thing. What they actually do defines their character.
Original Lee
@Brandon: Departments in a university are sort of like vertical silos. Faculty interact at a level when they are on committees, but for the most part the average faculty member knows what is happening in his/her own department very well and maybe a little bit about what is happening in related departments, and the rest is noise and rumor. Saying you won’t hire someone from the Math Department because of something that happened on the football team at a place as big as Penn State is painting with too broad a brush, IMO.
Paterno had to go. The president had to go, too. Certainly the campus police need to fire somebody. Basically, anybody north of Paterno in the hierarchy, and north of the campus police to whom the incident was reported, should be on the carpet and thoroughly investigated before being fired and/or sanctioned. Faculty on oversight committees for the football program also need to be checked. I don’t think this means the whole faculty and graduate student body is corrupt, though.
Paul in KY
@debit: Thought I’d try to explain the obvious to the oblivious.
Jennyjinx
@Cassidy:
The 10 year-old boy in the shower was anally raped. There’s no fucking getting around that fact. There are other boys that were not anally raped, but were raped nonetheless.
Read the Grand Jury report with it’s very graphic detail to learn the difference. There were boys who were raped by being subjected to unwanted masturbation by Sandusky, boys that were raped by being forced to perform oral sex on Sandusky (as well as being forced to endure oral sex being performed on themselves) and there were boys who were “just” forced to endure sexual groping.
There are differences in the kind of rape these children endured. McQuery witnessed anal rape. We’re adults here and this is the reality of the situation. No one’s fucking fapping to this shit unless you’re a goddamned sicko. Calling it anything other than what it is makes it sound like less than what it is. Grown, intelligent people don’t need to dance around the facts of what actually happened to those children.
I would’ve been happy to ignore the pearl-clutching “can’t we call it something else” if you hadn’t felt the need to add “fapping” and “hipster” in doubling-down on your whine. Read the details in the report.
From Page 6:
Rome Again
The Grand Jury Report states the janitors knew, so, this is not something to ponder. It’s FACT!
Less Popular Tim
@stormhit:
apparently you were being self-righteous in your anti-self-righteousness ;-)
the fake fake al
Read the grand jury report, its painful, but clear that lots of people knew and many more could have guessed what was going on. The coach had young boys at the coaches table before football games, boys in his hotel room, boys at his house, boys at football games. Dude was completely out of control. The janitors caught him, the GA caught him, his wife had to know, he had boys sleeping in his basement and would “visit” them at night. There is a lot of pain here, a lot. The report sites 8 victims, but if the Catholic Church crisis is any indication, there are many more who may or may not come forward. And am I right, the coach is out on bail? Pain pain pain for a long time.
sukabi
@Rome Again: If the janitors knew, then it’s highly likely that almost everybody in that department knew, or suspected that Sandusky was openly raping / molesting boys in the locker room for a very long time… sounds like he was daring someone to stop him, and no one did.
The Swiss Army Knife of Visual Effects
I just want to clarify something. Dangerman keeps saying Sandusky was cleared in an earlier case. That is not true. He was never cleared. The prosecutor, (yes, the one that disappeared) declined for some reason to bring the case to trial. Declining to prosecute does not equal “being cleared”. Some prosecutors routinely refuse to bring anything but a sure win to trial. Gotta preserve their won/loss record, dontcha know. There was substantial evidence in the case, including a damaging admission to inappropriate behavior by Sandusky.