Yes, Herman Cain added a couple points to his scumbag multiplier with the “Princess Nancy” crack and Perry.exe encountered reality and blue screened on stage, but the real problem at last night’s debate was a number of GOP candidates (Newt and Ron Paul End The Fed) gleefully saying that as President they would basically end government student loans, at a debate at a college, with a college audience, presumably the college kids at the college due to government-backed student loans, and the college kids cheering the end of the aforementioned loans.
Paul was asked about student loan program at a Republican presidential debate. He called it a “total failure” and said student loan debt of nearly $1 trillion could be “dumped on the taxpayer.” He said he supported getting rid of student loan programs and the Education Department.
“There’s no authority in the Constitution for the federal government to be dealing with education,” the Texas congressman argued. “We should get rid of the loan programs. We should get rid of the Department of Education and give tax credits, if you have to, to help people.”
Gingrich said the loan program expanded the ability of students “to stay in college longer because they don’t see the cost.” He called it “an absurdity.”
I mean how long before the official GOP platform plank on college is “not if you can’t pay cash you don’t!” The number of things America can no longer afford because we have to get the top marginal tax rate as low as possible in order to Magically Create Jobs is getting a bit long, yes? Somehow, I don’t think that our revenue problem is going to be solved by the “Michele Bachmann Two Happy Meal Alternative Minimum Tax Plan” either.
This notion that the federal government should do nothing whenever possible is one thing, but actively running on a platform of promising to assure that government doesn’t help its citizens is just grimly bizarre stuff.
Paul in KY
Keep the crazy coming, Repubs!
Brian S
I wouldn’t bet on the audience being filled with students. Drake is hosting one of these debates and isn’t handling the ticketing–the state GOP is, because they’re the ones putting on the event. It’s entirely possible that there wasn’t a single student in that audience, and even if there were, they were likely hand-picked as local GOP supporters.
Villago Delenda Est
If the Federal government did nothing whenever possible, we would not be having this pleasant online discussion today. Because there would be no Internet (Ma Bell said 40 years ago that such a thing was not possible) and there would be no personal computers (because before the space program came along, computers filled large rooms) to connect to the Internet to type these words into.
This is why idiots like Ron Paul (and his cretinous followers) should be laughed off the stage.
eric
This is the same argument made in local communities to divide seniors from young parents. It is the old, why should you pay high property taxes to send kids to school when (1) you have no kids or (2) your kids are long gone. Nothing new here.
harlana
What part of “he who does not work, does not eat” do you not understand??
Get a job, neonates! And start saving for college, now, you lazy lima beans!
Mark S.
There you go. You can use these tax credits to offset your income from your part-time job waiting tables while you’re in school. That will really help people afford college.
Whenever I hear a Republican politician talk, I really wonder if they know anyone, even in passing, who is not in the top 10%. They are completely clueless how the vast majority of people live.
willard
what happened to a government of the people, for the people, and by the people?
Republican voters apparently do not understand that by the power of the vote, freedom of speech and assembly, and the power to petition that we are the government. This Is a much more powerful position then the power we have over corporations and religious institutions. Why the hell would anybody willingly sacrifice that?
doubletall
Here’s the deal. Republicans can’t govern. So Republicans being Republicans they must of course blame gov’t for their inability to govern and therefore government must be eliminated.
The best psychological explanation I have found is this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
harlana
@eric: well, ya know, i have no kids, not a senior yet, thankfully, but a substantial amount of my property taxes, of course, go to local schools – i just wish all the parents of those kids had better sense than to vote the way they do, that’s my only complaint/resentment, cuz these “me & mine/screw the rest” people are killin’ me! As in, how about I keep paying for yer kids school and not whine about it, if you stop trying to destroy and punish the state and its inhabitants by voting for clowns, hmm?
doubletall
Here is the deal. Republicans can’t govern. So Republicans being Republicans it must of course be governments fault. Therefore government must be eliminated.
The best psychological explanation I have found is this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
doubletall
Unemployment claims came in better than analysts expectations today.
Of course Gloom Porn Addict Cole will have absolutely NOTHING to say about it.
Zifnab
@Mark S.:
Whoa, whoa. Slow down there. We’re going to have to get rid of minimum wage first. Then we’re going to have to import a bunch of foreign laborers without giving them full citizen status. Then you can compete for a part-time job waiting tables in order to have the honor of earning enough money to one day invest in an education at an unaccredited private diploma mill.
We wouldn’t want anyone to benefit too easily.
PurpleGirl
Ah, a new name I see… if you change your name you really should change the message, or at least its form. You give yourself away.
Jay C
@Brian S:
Given Republican debate audiences’ propensity to applaud some fairly weird notions, this report doesn’t really strain one’s credibility much: but, given that this may well have been a “picked” audience, it’s possible they were cheering a proposed end to student-loan programs because they thought it was a forgiveness proposal: i.e., end the program AFTER they graduate, so they wouldn’t have any debt to pay!
Republican economics: ain’t it grand…. ?
Unsympathetic
What’s the problem with ending Federal loan guarantees for students? School loans are literally the only part of the economy that has grown since 08. So if they want to end ’em, reap the whirlwind.
Decrease the availability of loans -> fewer applicants fit the definition -> price of schooling must fall along with salaries of all involved, or teachers / administrators get the axe.
Oh, one other thing: No federal guarantee means those school loans become dischargeable in bankruptcy. Hello, epic Republican fail!
Brian S
One other thing about students who might have been in the audience: if they’re anything like the conservative (especially Paulite) students I had at my last job, they’d tell you they’re not worried about an end to student loan programs, because if those were gone, then they’d still be in school because a) they’re the cream of the student crop, and 2) (did that deliberately) because the people who were there because of “special favors” wouldn’t have the scholarships they don’t deserve and d) because freemarketunderpantsgnomesapplepizzapieJesus so fuck you.
Fortunately, I didn’t have many of those students.
David Hunt
@Mark S.:
Well, the people driving them around and the people doing their lawns and such certainly won’t make that much money, but I doubt that GOP pols register these individuals as “people” and see them more like mobile furniture.
Mark S.
@doubletall:
Hey Nevderf, can you at least save your Cole-trolling for posts Cole actually writes?
Davis X. Machina
There’s no point in building the world’s best tree-house if you can’t then pull up the ladder.
PurpleGirl
As the Rethuglican politicians love the sound of their own voices, their selected debate attendees just want to inspire the actors on by applauding as a trained animal might. It’s an unthinking Pavlovian response. (And maybe then the MotU will rain rewards on them.)
different-church-lady
You just used blue screen as a verb.
I can’t decide if I love you or hate you.
Davis X. Machina
Or lawn furniture. The Greek noun ἀνδράποδον, ‘slave’, is a neuter, and seems to means something like ‘an agricultural implement with human feet…’
Forward into the past….
different-church-lady
The Republican flowchart for higher education looks something like this:
* You’re poor? Get a job you lazy bum.
* I have a job, it pays poorly
* Then get a better education, you dope.
* I want to, but I can’t afford college
* You’re poor? Get a job you lazy bum.
gbear
I’m surprised you didn’t link to Charlie Pierce. He had a great posting yesterday regarding the founding fathers’ intent to provide affordable education to everyone.
My work computer bans me from visiting his site (I have no idea why) so I can’t go get the link.
Cat Lady
I’ve been listening to the morning opinion shows for the first time in many many months just to see what the Republican spin is. Of course Perry’s FAIL leads every story, followed by Cain’s response to Bartiromo’s harrassment question and the subsequent jeering that followed. No real discussion anywhere about the failure of the candidates to substantively answer any questions, and no Rove-like pro GOP talking point memos have been distributed to the corporate media whores yet. It’s clear that the bobbleheads know that they all witnessed massive FAIL, but how to spin it that it’s good news for John McCain has yet to be determined. I haven’t read Halperin yet though.
different-church-lady
@gbear:
To prevent milk from coming out your nose on a regular basis?
Quaker in a Basement
@different-church-lady:
Completely awesome!
Villago Delenda Est
@different-church-lady:
The proper fifth step is the summoning of the tumbrel to deal with the Rethug.
Redshift
Shorter Ron Paul: “I know it says ‘promote the general welfare’ but that doesn’t mean we can promote the welfare of any individual!”
different-church-lady
@Redshift: Bill Gates and 100 monks, all that all that.
Villago Delenda Est
@gbear:
Those would be the actual FFs, as opposed to the Rethug FFs who were all raving Jeebus freaks out to kill as many Mooslims as humanly possible at the time.
Davis X. Machina
@gbear: I can’t get Esquire either, in this case from a high school — and I’m staff.
Redshift
@Cat Lady:
The press all know (like the candidates) that the successful way to handle an interview or debate is to answer the question you want to answer, rather than the one that was asked. It rarely seems to occur to them that it can be newsworthy if candidates do that in an obvious way.
elmertfudd
I heard the International Brotherhood of Clowns and Clown Car Drivers is planning to sue anyone that defames their professions by associating clowns and their cars with the GOP candidates for President..
Mark S.
I’m trying to imagine what a Ron Paul presidency would look like. 50% unemployment? Is that too low?
But there would be 75% more freedom!
shwabout
To be fair, it’s really more like PERRY.SYS bluescreened.
Kernel mode drivers cause a bugcheck, not usermode applications… not since Windows dumped the Win9x codebase and switched to NT.
OK, nerd mode canceled. Please continue…
superking
The thing here is that if you’re working, you are paying taxes. I don’t understand how Bachmann got away with this stuff, especially in the Washington Post. Everyone who works a wage or salary job pays taxes to the federal government.
burnspbesq
@doubletall:
“Unemployment claims came in better than analysts expectations today.”
Better than expected, but still too high.
Pollyannas are every bit as bad as Cassandras..
Villago Delenda Est
@superking:
Because it is not in the interest of the top 1% to highlight such nonsense. It does not fit in with their agenda.
The Kaplan Test Daily has an agenda, and they’re not going to let uncomfortable facts get in the way of pursuing it.
burnspbesq
@Unsympathetic:
“No federal guarantee means those school loans become dischargeable in bankruptcy.”
And that would be bad? Splain, please.
CJ's dad
The debates remind me of that song “Send in the Clowns”
Zifnab
@burnspbesq: Bad for anyone making a student loan. Great for students themselves, since they could just declare bankruptcy on graduation day, ride out 7 years of bad credit, and emerge five or six figures richer.
Unsympathetic
@burnspbesq: That’s my point.. I think discharging of loans would be a very good thing.
The meme of “no more Federal loans for edukayshun” will backfire – or be changed – by whatever Rethug actually gets the nomination.. because their WS overlords will remind them how profitable those school loans actually are.
My guess is we’ll see the continuation of the bankruptcy exception for school loans, just like fracking has an exception within the clean air act.
Quaker in a Basement
@gbear: Probably because he’s on the Esquire magazine site which also features some soft-softcore cheesecake.
rikryah
this is who they are…plain and simple.
Waingro
@Zifnab:
This is really not that vexing of a problem. You could easily stipulate that students must wait at least five years from graduating before declaring bankruptcy and that there must have been a good faith effort to try and repay the loans. This is the only type of consumer-esque type debt that is non-dischargeable, which is just fucking warped.
Jay in Oregon
Zandar:
Fantastic. I need a cigarette after reading that…
PurpleGirl
Re Not paying federal income taxes: Everyone pays them if they are working and everyone has to file unless you meet some minimum criteria. Even unemployed people have to file and pay some amount of income taxes depending on other factors. But you have to file in any case.
Bachmann just isn’t crazy, she’s an ignorant crazy. (Actually they all are.)
catclub
@Quaker in a Basement: Or it could just be his company signed up with a net-nanny service that decides anything outside of townhall and fox news is the intellectual equivalent of pr0n.
Yutsano
@PurpleGirl: The income threshold for not filing in 2010 was $9350 unless you earned any sort of 1099 income which then it’s $400. It’s different next year but I don’t know the exact number. So yeah, that’s basically barely surviving.
Larv
Ah, but should anybody actually use those tax credits, Republicans would then accuse them of being lazy parasites who don’t pay enough taxes.
Capri
@Mark S.:
No, a Ron Paul presidency would mean a new era of bipartisan utopia. Both sides of senate and house would come together to protect their sponsors and thus the status quo from Paul’s vetos.
I’ve heard the GOP “reasoning” when it comes to student loans and health care and they go like this:
Tuition and health care costs began going up at a rate much faster than inflation at about the same time that government subsidies in the form of student loans and medicare/medicaid took hold.
“Logical” conclusions –
1. Universities and health provider increases to their customers was caused by the easy money from the government. Why tighten your belt if Uncle Sam keeps giving you any size belt you order?
2. This artificial situation of huge costs driven by easy government dollars would “correct” if the government dollars go away.
3. Pulling federal student loan subsidies would mean that universities would have no students at current rates and would have no choice but to lower their prices.
So the students (if there were any present) were cheering what they believe would happen if the government got out of the student load business: Lower tuition plus lower taxes = Way higher win!
Ironically, at the institution where I work, the main factor driving the increase in tuition is the skyrocketing costs to provide health care to the university employees.
Mike G
Republicans can’t govern. So government run by Republicans will screw up constantly and massively. Since Republicans are never at fault, this must be blamed on ‘government’, and eliminationist rhetoric directed at all government activity.
Lurking Canadian
I suppose there’s no value in pointing out that tax credits of $X are only useful to people who pay at least $X in taxes? So this “plan” makes sure that the people the government is helping to pay for university are the people least in need of help?
(I assume the plan is not to give this $X to people paying less than $X, because that’s a government handout, therefore socialism, therefore something that makes the Baby Jesus cry.)
tkogrumpy
Let’s be frank. We can’t have both college aid AND war in Afghanistan. Make your choice.
Lurking Canadian
I suppose there’s no value in pointing out that tax credits of $X are only useful to people who pay at least $X in taxes? So this “plan” makes sure that the people the government is helping to pay for university are the people least in need of help?
(I assume the plan is not to give this $X to people paying less than $X, because that’s a government handout, therefore sokialism, therefore something that makes the Baby Jesus cry.)
(Hey, my first time stuck in the spam filter! Cool!)
ottercliff
I wonder if the bloated ex-speaker (or his latest bride, for that matter) were recipients of said “absurd” student loans when they were students?
different-church-lady
Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of the clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.
“That’s some catch, that Catch-22,” he observed.
“It’s the best there is,” Doc Daneeka replied.
Davis X. Machina
@different-church-lady: Refundable tax credits reach everyone. Which is why the most successful anti-poverty program ever, after SS, the Earned Income Tax Credit, is a.) special and b.) always under attack.
BLayne
Uh, hey guys, first time commenter, really love your blog…
@different-church-lady: This made my lunch break.
The Republican flowchart for higher education looks something like this:
* You’re poor? Get a job you lazy bum.
* I have a job, it pays poorly
* Then get a better education, you dope.
* I want to, but I can’t afford college
* You’re poor? Get a job you lazy bum.
g
I wouldn’t presume the audience was full of college students. It was probably full of party donors.
lovable liberal
The Republican platform is, “Fuck you. You don’t deserve help, and you’re not getting any. On the other hand, corporations and the wealthy get all the help they ask for because they deserve it.”
Villago Delenda Est
@lovable liberal:
They deserve more wealth because they already have a great deal. Money grubbing is next to Godliness.
lawguy
I went through college mostly on grants, work study jobs and the GI Bill back in the late 60s and early 70s. Some fun. Enough for classes, books, and living expenses and a decent amount of weed.
I do not believe that we are any poorer as a country now then we were back in my day. We are only meaner and more selfish. The republicans don’t bother to hide it. The democrats are marginally more subtle.
We are doomed.
Jeorge
Thanks for this great and worthy expose. I supposed with dude that Clowning Is An Honorable Entertainment Profession That These Fools Are Besmirching. By the way whatever you wrote here about this issue seems to me outstanding. Thanks once more.