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You are here: Home / Open Threads / Then they came for the Roots

Then they came for the Roots

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There are those who say that this is tasteless, and Fallon has apologized, but in my opinion, this is one of the great moments in television history.

Update: After reading the comments, and in light of the way powerful women politicians like Nancy Pelosi have been treated recently, I can see why maybe this is just plain wrong. I can’t deny, though, that as someone who loves Fishbone, hates Bachmann, and finds tv boring, this amused me.

Reader Interactions

199Comments

  5. 5.

    terry

    it was pretty tacky though (even though, yes, all michele bachmann does is lie, especially for that horrid genocidal diety she worships, so I guess it’d be accurate). i’m glad all involved apologized.

  6. 6.

    blahblah

    Gender-based insults suck, and you suck for liking it.

    There were wittier choices, The Roots took the easy way out.

  8. 8.

    Mattminus

    @TooManyJens:

    Why not reach for one? She is a crazy bitch. It’s OK to say it, it doesn’t mean that all women are bitches. Similarly, it’s not misandry if I call a man a dick.

  9. 9.

    Kiril

    Whenever this has come up over the past few days, there is a small but devoted subset of us who just keep mentally screaming FEEEECH BOOOONE and don’t care about any of the rest of it

  10. 10.

    Rathskeller

    Fishbone!!!!! I loved them.

    I don’t think she’s lying, though, I think she is genuinely nuts and believes every word, including those of her gay husband.

  11. 11.

    DougJ

    @TooManyJens:

    You know if it were just “bitch” (if they had played the song “Bitch”), I would agree, but anyone can be “lying ass” something, so it just doesn’t seem sexist to me.

  13. 13.

    licensed to kill time

    I like how she is absolutely clueless about the music.

    Honestly, I would have been, too….would never have known who/what the song was until you identified it. Uh-oh! Michelle Bachmann and I have something in common! Just shoot me now.

  14. 14.

    blahblah

    I’m not going to give you all a Women’s Studies course so you can understand your own ignorance.

    wigger : nigger :: dick : bitch

  15. 15.

    Comrade Mary

    You know, in a universe in which the only way to diss and contain Bachmann was by passively-aggressively playing that song (because she obviously had no clue what it was in the moment), this might fly.

    But in this universe, I’m in the “fuck the pointless gendered insults” club. Plus, from a strategic and not a moral viewpoint, you can’t complain about right wingers calling Hillary or Nancy Pelosi bitches if you approve of calling right wing women bitches.

    I’m glad they’ve apologized.

  17. 17.

    Mattminus

    @blahblah:

    Begun the Oppression Olympics have.

    Also too, your Periodic Table of Oppressive Language might be the dumbest fucking thing I’ve ever seen

  20. 20.

    mistermix

    The use of “bitch” is really a riddle. On it’s own, a pointless, gender-based insult. Combined with the right adjective, it’s kind of denatured. It’s one of those weird words, kind of like “asshole”. Almost every time, it’s a man who gets called “asshole”, yet women have them, too (or so I’m told, I just read about it books and on the Internet).

    Example: Martha Plimpton’s classic “Bloody Mother Fucking Asshole”. Take out the “Mother Fucking” part, since that makes it about a man (though, really, I’ve also read on the Internet and in books that women can actually fuck other women), and you’ve got “Bloody Asshole”. Men and women can both have them, but nobody would call a woman that.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX-bIr8dr6U

  21. 21.

    Judas Escargot

    @Rathskeller:

    I don’t think she’s lying, though, I think she is genuinely nuts and believes every word, including those of her gay husband.

    This. My wife keeps pointing out her ‘scary, crazy eyes’ at every debate. I’d feel safer if I thought Bachmann really were lying– unlike the others, I think she really does “hear” Jeebus talking to her. Push the little red button, Michelle. Fulfill your destiny, my Daughter… etc etc.

    And, IMO, maybe we should leave the cheap misogyny to the other side? Just sayin’.

  22. 22.

    TooManyJens

    @DougJ: If they had just played a song with “Liar” or something similar in the title, I wouldn’t complain. But I don’t want to legitimize using “bitch” to put women down because, for one thing, I’m a woman and I don’t want it used on me. And if you think it only gets used on women you think “deserve” it, you are sadly mistaken.

  23. 23.

    Cris (without an H)

    @Comrade Mary: passively-aggressively playing that song

    I would have preferred a little more “passive.” The song is full of funky-ska instrumental passages; they could have played that, rather than the more obnoxious “la la la” part, and it might have flown under the radar.

  24. 24.

    Amir Khalid

    That was very rude, even if you agree with Ahmir Thompson that Bachmann is a liar. Neither Jimmy Fallon or the network would have enjoyed having to apologize to Bachmann. Thompson is probably in some well-deserved trouble at the network for it. Some kind of reprimand for Thompson himself is in order, and so is a personal apology from him.

    All the same, Schadenfreude is Schadenfreude. I too found it amusing.

  25. 25.

    pete

    “There are those who say …” — uh-oh, stepping into full retard without the hip-high waders, no wonder DougJ’s getting a well-deserved fertilizer bath.

    But we love you really.

  26. 26.

    TheMightyTrowel

    @mistermix: You sir have never been a cyclist in a large city. I couldn’t count on the FSM’s tenticles the number of people of any gender (incl non-specified) at whom I have shouted something to the effect of ‘bloody asshole wanker! move your goddamned car!’

  28. 28.

    RP

    Honestly, I would have been, too….would never have known who/what the song was until you identified it. Uh-oh! Michelle Bachmann and I have something in common! Just shoot me now.

    That’s why it’s not funny. If you have to explain the context to 95% of the audience and the intended victim, you’ve failed.

  30. 30.

    Mattminus

    @Comrade Mary:

    I don’t think there’s an a priori answer to that.The race of the speaker should make a difference, however. We all understand, for instance, what the term “Uncle Tom” means. I can certainly imagine circumstances under which a white person could defensibly call someone that.

  31. 31.

    Brian R.

    @Comrade Mary:

    Thought exercise: is it OK for white people to paint blackface on opponents, or to label certain black people Uncle Toms?

    Why stop there? I’d argue that playing “Lyin’ Ass Bitch” as Bachmann walked out was as bad as the mass lynching of African Americans, the Holocaust, and forced genital mutilation combined.

    Yay, I win the outrage contest! I’m trulier more progressive than thou!

  32. 32.

    trollhattan

    @Judas Escargot:

    If she’s not a liar then she’s a sociopath–the sort of person who can’t be tripped up by a lie detector.

    e.g., “I am Michele, daughter of Zeus, and I swear here and now I can fly!” wouldn’t wiggle the needle.

    Also, too, re-education camps.

    Giving power to a sociopath never works out well for the underlings.

  35. 35.

    eemom

    @piratedan:

    I mean hell, they could have gone with Donovan’s Season of the Witch, but then again, that is a bit of an oldie….

    Or Lying Eyes by the Eagles.

  36. 36.

    Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill

    There are those who say that this is tasteless

    And yes, you miss the point.

    Tasteless isn’t the problem. Calling her a lying politco via clear song choice would be tasteless. Associating with a song about her being a bitch? WTF?

    The point, I believe, of being a goddamned liberal is that you defend the values of social justice even when you disagree with the person. Triflin’ misogyny isn’t anywhere near that — but it’s exactly how this plays out, and it makes Michelle out to be yet another victim of those evil liberals. I mean, did they really think this through? think about the optics of it? Hell, no.

    Or, to swipe a phrase from TV Tropes: What the Hell, Hero?

  37. 37.

    TooManyJens

    @Mattminus:

    We all understand, for instance, what the term “Uncle Tom” means. I can certainly imagine circumstances under which a white person could defensibly call someone that.

    I can’t imagine circumstances under which a white person would not be, at best, a raging douchebag for doing so.

  38. 38.

    Brian R.

    @Comrade Mary:

    Isn’t that straw man rather prickly?

    No more so than trotting out a white person in blackface, as you did.

    My wife is somewhere to the left of Clara Fraser, and she thought it was hysterical.

  39. 39.

    ruemara

    meh. I care nothing for the supposed gender insult. She is a lying ass bitch, even if she believes her lies. As far as being rude, considering the things she has said, rudeness is better than she deserves. I find it fascinating that people want the president to “show some spine”, “push back”–but when people who actually are in the media do something barely as outrageous as what conservatives do every damn day, it’s like a whole herd of fainting goats collapse across the internets.

  40. 40.

    Steve

    It seems to me the concern is with the existence of a song called “Lyin’ Ass Bitch” in the first place.

  41. 41.

    Brian R.

    @ruemara:

    I find it fascinating that people want the president to “show some spine”, “push back”–but when people who actually are in the media do something barely as outrageous as what conservatives do every damn day, it’s like a whole herd of fainting goats collapse across the internets.

    Bingo.

  42. 42.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @DougJ: I’ll just pretend you didn’t like it, because I know you’ll congratulate me on having Bootsy in my LinkedIn network.

    I can even get why you liked it, but I can’t allow the gender insults to get legitimized, because well, shut up, that’s why. Seriously, though, it’s okay to like it (ducking) as long as you recognize that it’s tasteless and inappropriate. I *still* cackle at the thought of a really inappropriate tasteless joke that was topical at the time I first heard it. Because it’s clever, but I know that it’s horrible.

  44. 44.

    Jewish Steel

    Can you believe the prissy, uptight bitches on this thread?

    Fishbone was one of the best live shows I ever did see. Those guys were athletic in a way no other rock band was. I’m sorry went off the deep-end into prog-fusion land and became kind of unlistenable.

  45. 45.

    KXB

    So an aging, unfunny, fratboy (Fallon) and a couple of once innovative but now network sellouts (The Roots) that kiss the ass of said aging frat-boy get all edgy by playing Lying Ass Bitch. Not impressed.

  46. 46.

    blahblah

    @DougJ: Yes, I’m glad they apologized and, yes, it was inappropriate, I still liked it.

    Yeah, but you thought you were being all witty by using Niemoller’s moving poem to poke fun at misogyny, too. You should consider trying to be a better person.

    Here is the excerpt in full, just so you can reflect:

    First they came for the communists,
    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a communist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a Jew.

    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left to speak out for me.

    Classy move.

  47. 47.

    TooManyJens

    @Brian R.: You sure are willing to go to ridiculous rhetorical lengths to defend the idea that it’s OK to call women bitches if you hate them enough.

    @Jewish Steel:

    Can you believe the prissy, uptight bitches on this thread?

    I guess it’s helpful to figure out who will and will not have our backs if people use misogynistic language against us. I’ll put you down as a “no.”

  49. 49.

    Mattminus

    @TooManyJens:

    Really? So, and forgive me if I’m conflating my rightwing stupidities here, when the Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson goes on Hannity to claim that Amadou Diallo had it coming and that the cops that shot him are the victims of a reverse racist witchhunt, it’s wrong to say what everyone is thinking?

  50. 50.

    BigSouthern

    Mistermix@19: The reason women are rarely called “asshole” isn’t because it’s a term gender-coded for men, it’s because there’s already a perfectly good gender-coded insult for women with a history of usage that makes it meaner than being called an asshole.

  51. 51.

    Amir Khalid

    @DougJ:
    Meredith Brooks’ Bitch or the Rolling Stones’ Bitch? Brooks’ song is about a woman who is a bitch, among other things, and proud of all that she is. The Stones are just griping “it’s a bitch” and not using the word to insult a woman.

  52. 52.

    Guster

    @TooManyJens: I suspect that begs the question. The point here seems to be that Bachmann really is a Lying Ass Bitch. So calling her one is okay. But calling her just ‘Bitch’ would be offensive. Likewise, calling Clinton or Pelosi ‘Bitch’ would be offensive on the basis of gender, but calling them ‘Lying Ass Bitches’ would be fine … if they actually were lying ass bitches. But they’re not.

    How about Romney? Is it okay to call him a lying ass bitch?

    (All that said, I think it’s a) sexist but b) not the job of a band to be anti-sexist, especially the Roots, who’ve got more cred than most of us. And it’s interesting that nobody’s mentioned race. Or age. Is ‘bitch’ less offensive to younger people? I bet it is. Other’n that, I will not speculate.)

    Oh, and the Roots, pretty apropos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8XO6fhTk4I

  54. 54.

    EvolutionaryDesign

    Points about the use of “bitch” are well-taken, but it’s pretty clear the emphasis was on “lying”. Also, it’s not their song. Also, men are frequently called bitches as well. There was a time the word exclusively referred to animals. Who knew BJ (heh, B.J.) had such an active purity police?

  55. 55.

    TooManyJens

    @Mattminus: Could you really not find another way to criticize him without making it about him being black? I mean, is that all you’ve fucking got?

    @EvolutionaryDesign:

    Also, men are frequently called bitches as well.

    Yes, usually as a way to degrade them by feminizing them. Not exactly striking a blow against misogyny, there.

  56. 56.

    eemom

    This is exactly the kind of pointless argument that is guaranteed to generate a furious 800+ comment barrage of manic cross-flaming that will not cease until long after the last Thxgiving turkey is consumed, including leftovers.

    Well done, sir. Well done.

  59. 59.

    Brian R.

    @TooManyJens:

    You sure are willing to go to ridiculous rhetorical lengths to defend the idea that it’s OK to call women bitches if you hate them enough.

    And you sure are great at putting words in my mouth. Others here elevated this to blackface and the n-word and everything else.

    I don’t care about the use of the word “bitch” at all. To me, it’s a female variant of “dick” or “asshole.” It’s a singular term that applies to an individual shithead, not a mass slur against all women. The only broad power that comes from the word stems from people who get overly outraged over it.

    Bachmann is a liar and they made fun of her for lying. But please, let’s all convene a seminar for all liberals to get in touch with our fee-fees about this, while the conservative gets to play the poor victim again.

    No wonder we keep losing at politics. Most of the people on our team absolutely suck at it.

  60. 60.

    Schlemizel

    @eemom:

    I really like the idea of lying eyes being her theme song since it combines her two biggest traits.

    But, as I explained in the Mitt Lies thread – Republicans can’t lie, the may misspeak or gaffe but even the librule NY times makes it clear only Dems lie.

  61. 61.

    Waldo

    @Judas Escargot: I’m with you guys. The more fitting choice would have been Patsy Cline’s “Crazy”. Although even old crazy eyes herself might have picked up on that one.

  62. 62.

    Mattminus

    @TooManyJens:

    Sure you could call him a quisling, but that’s less apropos, because he is trotted out by Hannity precisely because of the racial dynamics.

    Anyway, this sidebar convo is straying very far from the topic. In conclusion, stop being such a bunch of uptight, whiny bitches ;)

  65. 65.

    TooManyJens

    @Schlemizel:

    I really like the idea of lying eyes being her theme song since it combines her two biggest traits.

    But that wouldn’t have allowed them to call her a bitch, which is apparently REALLY IMPORTANT for fighting back against Republicans.

  66. 66.

    MaryRC

    Triflin’ misogyny isn’t anywhere near that—but it’s exactly how this plays out, and it makes Michelle out to be yet another victim of those evil liberals.

    And made the evil liberals look like mean girls in high school. Imagine the notes that were passed in class the next day. "Omigod she didn't even know we were making fun of her!" She was a guest on the show and was prepared to answer questions, she deserved some respect for that.

  67. 67.

    KXB

    Likewise, calling Clinton or Pelosi ‘Bitch’ would be offensive on the basis of gender, but calling them ‘Lying Ass Bitches’ would be fine … if they actually were lying ass bitches. But they’re not.

    During the campaign on 2008, HRC’s whole campaign was a lie – a woman who owed everything to her husband, running as a self-made woman. Plus, her infamous lie about dodging bullets in Bosnia. By your logic, if HRC were to go on Fallon’s show now, they could play Lying Ass Bitch, and it would be cool, since she was a lying ass bitch.

  69. 69.

    Jewish Steel

    @Waldo:

    Patsy Cline’s “Crazy”

    Been done, right? That tickles a memory that some waggish bandleader did that to some nutjob. Or was it the Simpsons?

  70. 70.

    EvolutionaryDesign

    @TooManyJens: Not exactly contributing either. I think you used to be able to make a case that bitch is feminizing. It is the female term for the animal after all. But I believe the frequent, near-daily use of the word has neutered it a bit (in keeping with gender-based animal terms).

  73. 73.

    Mattminus

    @Waldo:

    If they went with “Crazy” one of the PC scolds here would be wagging their finger chastising them for being ableist.

  74. 74.

    Brian R.

    @TooManyJens:

    Why so many men believe they are experts on misogyny is beyond me, it really fucking is.

    I’m not an expert, but the woman I married passed the link along to me with a note that she thought it was the funniest thing she’d seen in months.

    I’ll let her know she’s actually not a woman anymore. Thanks for your help, Supreme Council of Gender.

  75. 75.

    Cris (without an H)

    @Steve: Read the lyrics. The song is angry and sophomoric, but we allow that in context because it’s depicting a situation (betraying a friend by stealing her boyfriend) in which people do get really pissed off. The concern here is that it’s being employed in a different context, by somebody who should know better, against somebody who was a guest, and numerous other reasons that other commenters are handling just fine. But no, the existence of the song itself is not what we’re up in arms about here.

  76. 76.

    EvolutionaryDesign

    @TooManyJens: So, “bitch” is women’s n-word? By the tone of your reactions, it would appear to carry that weight. However, I must note, and purely anecdotally, that I don’t get this reaction in my own life. I’m sorry the word is hurtful to you. Hopefully the healing can begin soon.

  78. 78.

    r€nato

    OK was it just that the applause was drowned out by the band, or did she get hardly any applause when she came out???

  79. 79.

    DougJ

    @blahblah:

    You annoy me. And you are getting the way of people who are making making your point much better than you are, assuming you have a point.

  80. 80.

    Comrade Mary

    Thanks for the update, Doug. I can see your point, but I’m glad you’ve re-assessed.

    Back to deadlines!

  84. 84.

    The Moar You Know

    I could paint a car with all the clutched and crushed pearls on this thread.

    Some women are, in fact, lying ass bitches. Michelle Bachmann is one of them. What’s the problem here?

  85. 85.

    Montysano

    If Fallon wanted to be gutsy and edgy, he should have had The Roots actually sing the lyric “You’re nothing but a little lyin’ ass bitch” as she walked out. Instead, they took a cheap shot with an obscure song that 99.5% of viewers wouldn’t get.

    Mark me down for tacky and misogynistic.

  86. 86.

    JPL

    Thanks for the update on the front page. There are several appropriate songs that they could have played that didn’t demean females.

  87. 87.

    Cain

    @TooManyJens:

    There are plenty of ways to criticize Michelle Bachmann. Why reach for the gendered insult?

    BTW we do use bitch with males as well. I don’t think it’s used just for females anymore.

  88. 88.

    blahblah

    @Brian R.: I’m not an expert, but the woman I married passed the link along to me with a note that she thought it was the funniest thing she’d seen in months.

    I’ll let her know she’s actually not a woman anymore. Thanks for your help, Supreme Council of Gender.

    If you actually spent any time learning about the struggle for women’s rights, a past progressive cause, you would look back at your comments on here and cringe. I hope. I have faith in you.

  89. 89.

    nastybrutishntall

    also, it was an INSTRUMENTAL. emphasis on the “mental.” of a (relatively) obscure song. So no one was being called a bitch out loud. So all this pearl-clutching on both sides is some WATB nonsense.

  91. 91.

    Canuckistani Tom

    How about American Woman? You pick which version, although I’m partial to the Lenny Kravitz cover

  92. 92.

    EvolutionaryDesign

    @TooManyJens:

    Sweet Jesus, that was fucking condescending.

    Well, as long as it stopped short of misogyny, then I believe we can move on to the next outrage of the day.

  94. 94.

    Doc Sportello

    Funny AND inappropriate.

    It’s like two great tastes in one.

    If Bachmann had a sense of humor, she’d demand that the next time she’s on, the Roots play Women Is the Nigger of the World.

  95. 95.

    pete

    Colbert making fun of Bush while standing just about in fist-swinging range, that was a great television moment. Snarky musicians poking misogynist fun in total safety because the object of their ridicule didn’t even know what they were doing — that is juvenile.

  96. 96.

    Linnaeus

    @Cain:

    BTW we do use bitch with males as well. I don’t think it’s used just for females anymore.

    True, but that doesn’t mean that “bitch” isn’t gendered. It’s still considered an insult in our culture to say (or even imply) that a man is feminine in some way.

  97. 97.

    Brian R.

    Fuck you. Your wife is not sitting here telling me how I should be reacting to things. That’s all you.

    No, you all were telling *us* how to feel and getting mad that we didn’t.

    If you actually spent any time learning about the struggle for women’s rights, a past progressive cause, you would look back at your comments on here and cringe.

    Right, that’s why I said my wife was “somewhere to the left of Clara Fraser.” I know nothing of this mysterious women’s movement of which you speak. Nothing at all.

    I’m not offended by the word “bitch.” I’m sorry that you are. But please be sure to work yourself into a frenzy over it, because that’ll certainly solve all the very real problems women face.

  98. 98.

    Gilles de Rais

    No wonder we keep losing at politics. Most of the people on our team absolutely suck at it.

    @Brian R.: We keep unilaterally disarming while our enemies make weapons from the bones of our fallen.

    This thread’s one of the best examples I’ve ever seen of why modern liberalism will fail, not a question of if but when.

  100. 100.

    Cris (without an H)

    @EvolutionaryDesign: Also, men are frequently called bitches as well.
    @Cain: BTW we do use bitch with males as well. I don’t think it’s used just for females anymore.

    Guys, this argument is idiotic. Stop reaching for it. Straight guys get called “faggot” too, that doesn’t mean it’s no longer an anti-gay slur.

  101. 101.

    Dave

    Jesus tits, you people are insufferable. That shit was funny 1) because it was subtle; 2) because the recipient didn’t know it was happening; and 3) because it is true.

    Michelle Bachmann was trying to slice off a bit of whatever ‘cool cachet’ Fallon might have with a younger audience and in the process she got filleted.

    In closing, anyone complaining about the use of the word ‘bitch’ is just being a cunt.

  102. 102.

    Paul in KY

    @eemom: Good choice, but she might have picked up on it immediately & thrown a poutage-storm.

    I think the band thought it was obscure enough that she wouldn’t pick up on it.

  103. 103.

    Steve

    @Cris (without an H): I honestly don’t get why it is acceptable in that context but not here. Setting aside the case of women voluntarily choosing to own the insult, either it’s okay to use “bitch” as a putdown or it isn’t. I’d love to get rid of the word as a gendered insult but I have no idea how to square that position with the idea that the song is okay because it’s okay to call a woman who sleeps around a bitch.

  104. 104.

    blahblah

    @DougJ:

    Sorry about your poor fee-fee’s. I wasn’t the one who put my ignorance on display to the whole internet.

    TooManyJens is doing great, I don’t seem to be getting in the way. It’s too bad she has to be doing great, though.

  107. 107.

    Canuckistani Tom

    @Jewish Steel:

    IIRC, in the Simpsons ep where Homer was committed and met Michael Jackson (Way way back), ‘Crazy’ was the ‘ironic please hold’ song for the nuthouse when Marge phoned

  108. 108.

    rb

    Eh, this was sexist and not terribly clever. Even pulling out ‘911 is a joke’ would have been more subtle and avoided misogyny. And it would have been more on point, since the thing about Bachmann is she’s a joke: she wouldn’t know a relevant fact if she tripped over it on the way to spying on the latest marriage equality rally.

    Unfortunately some here have fallen into the Manichean trap, deciding that because they don’t want to be seen as pearl clutchers that means they need to denigrate the ‘prissy bitches’ who recognize the problem with what ?uestlove did here.

    In fact it’s simultaneously possible to recognize that:

    1. this was incredibly sexist and in terrible taste
    2. it wasn’t very clever (YMMV)

    and yet

    3. the rightwing victim patrol will make a huge, overblown deal out of this, and use it to attack liberals and liberal causes

    Thing is, 3 is going to happen no matter what you do. You can still recognize 1 without contributing to 3.

    Point out that this was sexist and ?uestlove should make a sincere apology is not the same as agreeing with the rightwing demand that he be fired or executed or whatever.

    This is like being-not-a-moron 101.

  109. 109.

    Amir Khalid

    @The Moar You Know:
    She was an invited guest on Late Night. Civilized people don’t invite guests over and then insult them as they arrive. Hiding behind an insult the guest doesn’t understand is cowardice, and only makes the offense worse.

  110. 110.

    KXB

    That shit was funny 1) because it was subtle; 2) because the recipient didn’t know it was happening; and 3) because it is true.

    No, it makes Bachmann, a woman I believe to be a nut-job, sympathetic to people who don’t care for her politics.

    Heckuva job, Brownie.

  111. 111.

    TooManyJens

    @Steve: But songs (or other forms of art) can depict something that’s not OK without endorsing it. (Whether that’s the case with this actual song, I don’t know, but in general.)

    The Roots endorsed it.

  113. 113.

    Morbo

    Hard to tell who’s more offended: the people who are offended, or the people who are offended that people are offended.

  114. 114.

    Woodrow/asim Jarvis Hill

    please be sure to work yourself into a frenzy over it, because that’ll certainly solve all the very real problems women face.

    We can walk and chew gum at the same time

    —White House Press Secretary Jay Carney

    When you’re President of the United States you’ve got to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time

    —White House Press Secretary Bill Burton

    I’m pretty sure one can work on high-end Feminist issues and criticize you at about the same time — more or less.

    You know, in between attending bra burnings. *sigh*

  115. 115.

    KG

    I just want to say, this has been a fascinating thread, quite entertaining. I am honestly amazed that people can get so upset about calling someone a bitch.

  123. 123.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Amir Khalid: That’s an excellent point. But, kind sir, you must remember that this is the US, and we are nothing if not uncivilized. Sad but true.

  124. 124.

    EvolutionaryDesign

    @TooManyJens: But pepper spray is ESSENTIALLY a food stuff. George Costanza pioneered the sex/food crossover, and I’ve been waiting for an excuse!

  126. 126.

    Chris

    @blahblah:

    Great poem.

    Of course, it’s a little hard for a conservative to relate to. After all, communists, trade unionists and Jews are all the same people, so it’s a redundant poem, and “me” (Conservative Citizen X) would never have anything to do with these nasty and unpatriotic people so I have nothing to worry about, and besides, what we should REALLY be worried about is that the communists, the trade unionists and the Jews are all coming for US.

    (Black people are the real racists, also too).

  128. 128.

    Dave

    @KXB:

    No, it makes Bachmann, a woman I believe to be a nut-job, sympathetic to people who don’t care for her politics.

    Only in the rarified air of internet blogs. Your average normal human won’t care. Those who recognize the song might give a little snigger and immediately forget about it. Those who don’t know the song will give it no thought. Fox News viewers and right-wing freaks will wet themselves about it until the next POUTRAGE is delivered to them.

    Going forward, Michelle Bachmannn will be very hesitant to put herself into a situation where she can’t control every aspect of the appearance, lest this kind of thing happen again. Which means we see less of her. WIN!

  130. 130.

    MikeJ

    Did they serve Mad Bitch beer in the green room? Many people were upset with the fuckwit from Kaplan when he referenced it as the beer for Clinton. I don’t see how this is much different.

  132. 132.

    Comrade Mary

    Let’s just say that interrupting Thai dinner preparation for sexy times … is not a good idea.

  133. 133.

    Waldo

    Jimmy needs to have Bachmann back on to apologize to her in person. And have the band play a harmless pop tune. I don’t know, maybe something from the Elton John catalog.

  135. 135.

    Cris (without an H)

    @TooManyJens: But songs (or other forms of art) can depict something that’s not OK without endorsing it.

    Well said, and too often forgotten.

    (Whether that’s the case with this actual song, I don’t know, but in general.)

    It’s often hard to tell whether a lyricist is depicting or endorsing. My guess in this case is that it’s pretty straightforward. The guys in Fishbone were pissed off and calling names.

    On the misogyny scale, it’s still a long way below Dr. Dre’s “Bitches Ain’t Shit” and even Ben Folds’ Nice Guy® anthem “Song for the Dumped” (which I would argue does depict, but might secretly endorse too), but like Steve says, we can still push back against the use of the word (or the phrase “lying piece of sack of shit slut trashcan scummis dirtbag”).

  136. 136.

    Comrade Mary

    Theoretical, not actual, Jen. I just keep telling him that I have a knife and that seems to work.

  137. 137.

    Paul in KY

    @pete: They did sort of wimp out. I think Jimmy would have been all over them if they had played a song she recognized & then freaked out.

  138. 138.

    KXB

    @Dave:

    Which means we see less of her. WIN!

    You really don’t know how this works do you? “Black musicians call white woman a bitch” That is your subliminal headline. Will it mean she gets the nomination? No, of course not. But, someone who may not have wanted to donate, is gonna whip out his checkbook and give her one more week.

  141. 141.

    brent

    @TooManyJens:

    Could you really not find another way to criticize him without making it about him being black? I mean, is that all you’ve fucking got?

    Well 2 things:

    1) in the circumstance he mentions, the Rev’s race is the point, isn’t it? Its not Mattminus that is “making it” about race by calling the reverend an uncle tom. its the Rev himself that is using his race as a way to defend what ought to have been seen as indefensible.

    2) this isn’t really responsive. The question was not, are there other ways to criticize the man. The question is, would it be appropriate for a non-black person to use this particular form of criticism. My vote is yes. I beleive it to be perfectly appropriate. What is yours?

  143. 143.

    rb

    Update: After reading the comments, and in light of the way powerful women politicians like Nancy Pelosi have been treated recently, I can see why maybe this is just plain wrong.

    Or, you know, how much much less powerful women are treated all the time. Seems like we men may sometimes be a little slow to get it. See also: http://tinyurl.com/d2f8tef

  145. 145.

    Satanicpanic

    Ok, it wasn’t cool to use a gendered insult. Then again, if I had a choice between what she would do to America, or to walk onto a TV show to a song that said something horrible about me, I’d choose the latter.

  146. 146.

    TooManyJens

    @brent: I would say that calling someone an Uncle Tom is a way of saying “you’re not being black the right way.” And I don’t feel that that’s a road white people should be going down.

  147. 147.

    Menzies

    @Waldo:

    “Crazy” would’ve likely generated the same amount of outrage in this thread. I say this because I’ve been told never to call women “crazy” – like “emotional,” it’s a word often used to describe a woman who has the sheer nerve to actually express a modicum of human feeling.

    I make no claim myself to being an expert on misogyny. I certainly learned some of the stuff by osmosis and my chief area of interest in my field (classics) is perceptions of gender and sexuality, but I’m not learned in it.

  148. 148.

    rb

    if I had a choice between what she would do to America, or to walk onto a TV show to a song that said something horrible about me, I’d choose the latter.

    Good thing we don’t have to make that choice. You know?

  152. 152.

    the Buhjaysus

    Wes Anderson, Bill Murray and David Bowie all deserve heaps of scorn for the use of “Queen Bitch” at the end of Life Aquatic.

    So I says, “Hey Lama, how bout a little somethin, you know, fer the effort.”

  153. 153.

    Rihilism

    @DougJ: For me, it’s always a context thingy. When everyone’s in on the joke or at least the joke is not really intended to be mean-spirited or insensitive (as always, everyone’s mileage may vary), use of inappropriate or non-PC language can be quite amusing. IMO, Stephen Colbert often achieves the precarious balance between the horribly inappropriate and the resoundingly hysterical.

    I’d heard about Fallon’s musical intro before actually seeing it. I thought it was going to be hilarious. Watching it just now, however, it seemed kinda mean. I despise the woman and think she deserves to be ridiculed. But she was invited on the show and obviously had no fucking clue about the intro song. Did Fallon ever/even mention anything about the song during the interview?

    Perhaps if the band had played “The Bitch is Back”, and Fallon had discussed it as jumping off point to talk about Bachmann’s absurd views of homosexuality, the effort would have been less of a direct attack on Bachmann and more of a “Hey, let’s have some fun with your views, Michele, I’m not actually calling you a bitch, I’m just wondering why you have such a problem with people like Elton John?”. I don’t know, maybe that would have been a bit more benign and a little less of a hit job…

  154. 154.

    Waldo

    @Menzies: You’re probably right about all that. My point was that she ain’t lying — she really believes the shit she spews, which means she’s nuts.

  155. 155.

    chopper

    i love the progressive movement. we’re like the Cubs, if the Cubs always lost because they were too busy arguing over who pissed on the locker room toilet to play ball.

  158. 158.

    Menzies

    @rb:

    I remember the first time I came upon “hysteros,” meaning the perfectly innocent “womb,” probably in the New Testament somewhere, and went “ooooooohhhhhh.”

    I think you’re probably correct w/r/t right now, but judging from the female acquaintances I have who pay more attention to this stuff than I can, it’s going to become more of an issue. Which it rightly should – I’m not saying it’s nonsensical or illegitimate. Just pointing out that I think the sea change is coming.

  159. 159.

    Paul in KY

    @licensed to kill time: Another excellent choice, although I think she would have recognized that one.

    IMO, if she’d figured out she was being trolled she would have gone off on Jimmy or maybe walked right out. Now repub guests will be insisting on their own special music when coming out (example: Deutchland Uber Alles for Pat Buchanon)

  160. 160.

    prn

    Tasteless? Yeah. Funny? Yeah, at a grade school level. I love juvenile humor, so I chuckled. Misogynistic? Definitely, but not intentionally so; women are constantly subject to this sort of condescending background bs every day. As a woman, I find it more tiresome than offensive, but that’s just me.

    How should we deal with it? My experience, when you’re dealing face to face with an single individual who is friendly, its effective to say “Hey, that was a dickish thing to say!” ( joke – I kid. ;) ) But, when dealing with the world at large, I think more is gained by shrugging, and reclaiming the word “Bitch” for ourselves. “You say bitch like its a bad thing” is one of my favorite catchphrases. Fact is, a woman HAS to be a bitch occasionally to just get by. It sucks, but there are bigger battles to be fought. Give me equal pay and excellent day care available to everyone, and I’ll let you call me a bitch to your heart’s content

    The band could have come up with something a little more clever, tho’

  161. 161.

    nastybrutishntall

    I think someone who believes 10% of the population should be either brainwashed to love someone of another gender, or cast out of society to hopefully disappear, die, whatever, is worse than a bitch. But I’ll settle for bitch, bitches.

  163. 163.

    Cheryl from Maryland

    Over 150 comments and no one mentioned her shoes! Look at those! They make Sarah Palin’s shoes look sedate.

  164. 164.

    pete

    @Paul in KY: Yup. If they’d had the balls intestinal fortitude to man up have the courage of their convictions and ridicule the idiot intellectually challenged politician who was trying to exploit their relative celebrity with a particular audience, well, alright then. Some things are worth getting fired for. But I don’t have much time for giggling in the back row.

  166. 166.

    Dave

    @KXB:

    But, someone who may not have wanted to donate, is gonna whip out his checkbook and give her one more week.

    Why should I care about that, outside of the idea that it’s less money going to someone who might actually get the nomination?

    This is a circular firing squad, and your energy is better spent on something that matters.

  167. 167.

    Rihilism

    @Paul in KY: Would not surprise me. Fallon has always struck me as pretty clueless and I’ve never been a big fan. Was relieved when he became Colbert’s eternal enemy for the next six months. Live on, Americone Dream! Late Night Snack???? Who the fuck puts potato chips in their ice cream???!!!! YUCK!!!!

  168. 168.

    Quiddity

    This blog keeps getting better and better. Now that DougJ has endorsed using a song with “slut trash can bitch” in the lyrics in order to express disapproval of a congresswoman, I can see that being a staple of commentary here.

  169. 169.

    KG

    @prn:

    Fact is, a woman HAS to be a bitch occasionally to just get by. It sucks, but there are bigger battles to be fought.

    Everyone, regardless of genitalia, has to be a bitch/asshole/dick to get by on occasion. It’s the way of the world, nice guys finish last and all that bullshit.

  170. 170.

    KXB

    @Dave:

    No, but it is not hard to imagine the likely nominee (Romney) try to shore up weakness among Evangelicals by selecting Bachmann as a running mate. She looks good on camera, speaks relatively sanely about Pakistan, and has an admirable back story given her work with foster kids. I could see her holding her own in a debate with Joe Biden, to a degree that Sarah Palin could only dream about.

    The longer she can stay in the race, the greater her chances to be the VP nominee. And this Fallon nonsense can help her in the fundraising area. How much money did Obama raise in 2008 when Bill Clinton called his campaign a “fantasy”? The ad writes itself.

    Again – heckuva job, Brownie.

  171. 171.

    eemom

    @prn:

    “You say bitch like its a bad thing” is one of my favorite catchphrases. Fact is, a woman HAS to be a bitch occasionally to just get by.

    me, I kind of LIKE being a bitch.

  172. 172.

    eemom

    After reading the comments, and in light of the way powerful women politicians like Nancy Pelosi have been treated recently, I can see why maybe this is just plain wrong. I can’t deny, though, that as someone who loves Fishbone, hates Bachmann, and finds tv boring, this amused me.

    I love this….it’s basically saying nothing different from what you said in the first place, but you STILL got all this credit from the folks who were angry, just as though you had actually backtracked.

    You slay me dude, totally. I mean you play this place like a piano.

  174. 174.

    Comrade Mary

    @eemom: There’s a difference between “There are those who say this is tasteless” and “I can see why maybe this is just plain wrong”. One of these shows listening skills.

  178. 178.

    DWG

    ‘Bitch’ is a insult any way you slice it; whether you are offended by it or not, does not make it less of an insult. The intention behind ‘bitch,’
    like ‘dick’ or ‘asshole’ is derogatory. I’ve been called a ‘bitch’ on several occasions — usually when I was being assertive about one thing or another. To suggest that it is an insult equally administered to the sexes is just nonsense. It is not. It is a word that has been used for generations to pressure women into a certain kind of behavior — that is, to be ‘nice’ — because nobody wants to be a bitch — and ‘nice’ usually means doing what somebody else wants, and often at particular expense to yourself.

    This is a battle that is still being waged; cultural expectations of women are still steeped in misogyny.

    So yeah.

  182. 182.

    Comrade Mary

    @eemom: I’ll cut people some slack instead of policing or suspecting their every word. We’re carbon-based, not silicon.

  185. 185.

    blahblah

    @eemom:

    Wow! It sure looks like DougJ learned his lesson and made up for his earlier mista…

    Then they came for the roots

    @DougJ:
    Oh, no, they’re here.

    Nope, he’s still a vile individual who managed to equate being pissed off at ignorant sexism with the Nazis.

  187. 187.

    Cain

    @Linnaeus:

    True, but that doesn’t mean that “bitch” isn’t gendered. It’s still considered an insult in our culture to say (or even imply) that a man is feminine in some way.

    I think the difference is how males handle the insult. Males insult each other with a wide range of insults in almost cavalier, casual manner. When women use insults, it is different from males. (notice, how I made sure not to say what exactly that is ;)

  188. 188.

    Kittehs to the rescue

    Fallon should apologize for having Bachmann on his show.

    But playing that song was stupid.

  190. 190.

    tBone

    @blahblah:

    Nope, he’s still a vile individual who managed to equate being pissed off at ignorant sexism with the Nazis.

    I like a good bitchfest* aimed at an errant front pager as much as anyone, but this seems a little over the top.

    *Too soon?

  191. 191.

    dnfree

    The term “political correctness” is usually used in a derogatory way, but to me it’s usually just what my mother called being polite, or being considerate, or taking into account someone else’s feelings. She was a guest on the show, and the host/band put her down in what someone described above as “mean girl” fashion (HAHA, she doesn’t even know we made fun of her!).

    This doesn’t say as much about Michele Bachmann as it does about the host/band. If Michele Bachmann is your guest, treat her as your guest. You can discuss her political views face-to-face, but don’t make fun of her behind her back. That’s just juvenile. I would say the same thing if a male guest had been treated this way.

  194. 194.

    jayboat

    THE SHOES!

    Man, she’s a short little cupcake-
    and tryin so hard to get up there another level with those ugly clodhoppers.

    Style is what matterz, amirite?

    Stylin, baby!

  195. 195.

    Uncle Ebeneezer

    There were so many better options:

    Crazy- Gnarls Barkely
    Crazy On You- Heart
    Liar- Henry Rollins
    Lyin Eyes- The Eagles
    Stupid Girl- Garbage (though that includes the gender no, no, as well)
    I Don’t Know- Ozzy Osbourne

  197. 197.

    Donut

    Also, too – does it help or hurt to know that the original song is sung by a female singer (in part) and said female is using the word “bitch” in reference to another woman?

    Just asking….

  198. 198.

    LanceThruster

    I can’t deny, though, that as someone who loves Fishbone, hates Bachmann, and finds tv boring, this amused me.

    I think it’s a good thing as laughter is one of the truly genuine reactions.

    As far as song selections go, I think one that is apt is “Crash (Shut Your Mouth)” by Thursday (on the “Dumb and Dumber” soundtrack) and it benefits from attacking Bachmann in a more oblique way that is totally non-sexist.

    So shut up, shut your mouth
    Cause I’m not listening anyhow
    I’ve had enough, enough from you
    Enough to last a lifetime through
    So what do you want of me?
    I’ve got no words of sympathy
    And if I go around with you,
    You know that I’ll get messed up too with you

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