According to his lawyer’s blog, PFC Bradley Manning’s case will finally get an Article 32 hearing. It is scheduled to start on the 16th of December and run for five days at Fort Meade, MD.
The Article 32 hearing for PFC Bradley Manning will begin on December 16, 2011 at Fort Meade, Maryland. The hearing is expected to last approximately five days. With the exception of those limited times where classified information is being discussed, the hearing will be open to the public.
Additionally, Mr. Coombs gives a pretty good description of what an Article 32 hearing is:
The primary purpose of the Article 32 hearing is to evaluate the relative strengths and weaknesses of the government’s case as well as to provide the defense with an opportunity to obtain pretrial discovery. The defense is entitled to call witnesses during the hearing and to also cross examine the government’s witnesses. Each witness who testifies is placed under oath; their testimony can therefore be used during the trial for impeachment purposes or as prior testimony should the witness become unavailable.
This will not happen in front of a judge, and unlike a civilian Grand Jury, which the Article 32 process replaces, the prosecutor, called the Trial Counsel in military parlance, will not run the hearing. It will be presided over by an Investigating Officer. The IO will be a commissioned officer who is not JAG corps, but will have a legal advisor. The IO will prepare a report to the Convening Authority, the general officer under whose authority this case proceeds. The report will advise the CA as to which proffered charges should proceed to Court Martial, which ones should be dropped, and what level of Court Martial should be convened. The advisory capacity of the IO cannot be overstated. It is at the Convening Authority’s sole discretion as to whether or not to charge a Soldier under UCMJ. The CA can choose to not charge vice his IO’s report, but this is rare. Conversely, the CA can choose to charge even when the IO recommends against it. This happens frequently in sexual assault/rape charges and drug charges.
I am not a lawyer. I do know lawyers who are members of the military bar, however, and they tolerate my questions and try to answer in such a way that I can understand them. There are other sources of information about the process and events out there, and I encourage you all to go out and seek out knowledgeable sources.
NOTE–edited to change the title of the Article 32 IO from “Investing Officer” to “Investigating Officer”. Hat tip to commenter sherparick.
Cermet
Considering torture was used, this case needs to be thrown out; otherwise, the military system is as bad a joke as the chenny/sock-puppet bush torture company.
Amanda in the South Bay
I predict this thread will quickly degenerate and be approximately 400 comments long.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
I predict 300+ comments, at least 100 of which are matoko insultbleats. Carry on.
Guster
Maybe I’m thinking too much like a Republican, but if the decision is solely the CA’s, what’s the point? Sounds like a dog-and-pony show. Well, that’s not really fair–sounds like a process that works extremely well, if the CA is responsible, and not at all if the CA isn’t. Is that fair?
Dr. Squid
Too close to the holidays to get attention. CONSPIRACY!!!!!!
Soonergrunt
@Cermet: That depends on what the “torture” was, and what was it’s purpose and result.
If you are alleging that he was “tortured” or mistreated in order to gain information from him in interrogation, then charges would be thrown out by the Military Judge, or non-referred after the Art. 32 hearing, if evidence actually exists to support such a claim. To date, neither Manning, nor his attorney have ever asserted such, and in fact have gone to pains to assert that is not the case.
If you are alleging that he was “tortured” or mistreated by confinement facility staff for the primary purpose of being dicks to him, well, you can certainly make a pretty strong case for that as there is plenty of documentation for it. But the remedy to that, under the UCMJ, is sentencing credit, should he be convicted. Typically, sentencing credit is a 1 for 1 thing, one day of credit for every day in pre-trial confinement. Where cruelty and maltreatment are credibly alleged, that credit can be extended. In one case of which I heard, that credit equaled four days for every day of maltreatment suffered by the Accused.
risk premium
well, Obama publicly stated that Manning was guilty some time ago. and since all the people involved in the court martial process report, directly or indirectly, to Obama, I don’t think there’s much mystery about the outcome.
when i saw the “authoritard” headline on the post below, I thought it was going to be about you, soonergrunt. you’re the online equivalent of the pepper-spraying UC Davis cop.
also, and this *ought* to go without saying, but I’d rather keep my IP address and email private.
Soonergrunt
@Guster: Well, as one Chief Judge of the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces once wrote in an opinion (and I’m paraphrasing here cause I can’t find the exact quote) “Unlawful Command Influence is the poison by which military justice dies.” There is a LOT of energy spent on dealing with UCI claims by the Accused, and cases have been thrown out of court completely.
I am aware of a manslaughter case that was thrown out against an Army Nurse Anesthetist after he was charged in the death of a 16-year-old USMC dependent at Walter Reed. The Commandant of the Marine Corps sent a memo to somebody in the Marines to the effect of “we’ve got to destroy this guy completely”. The Army Court of Criminal Appeals and the Court of Appeals of the Armed Forces concurred with the trial Military Judge that UCI had occured, and dismissed the charges and specifications with prejudice.
burnspbesq
@Cermet:
“Considering torture was used, this case needs to be thrown out”
You can believe whatever you choose to believe. However, as a matter of law:
(1) the circumstances of Manning’s confinement, while unnecessarily harsh, do not in my view fit any applicable definition of torture. If you think otherwise, feel free to provide cites.
(2) even if the circumstances of Mannimg’s confinement were found to constitute torture, dismissal of the charges is neither the only nor the most appropriate remedy. It’s far more likely that the remedy would be exclusion of any evidence obtained through the use of torture.
Soonergrunt
@risk premium: I’m sure that Mr. Coombs and MAJ Kemke, PFC Manning’s Trial Defense Counsel will bring up the President’s statement.
I don’t know what will happen with that, but given that General Courts-Martial only exist as the behest of General Officers in command billets, one would have to think, if one bought your opinion, that EVERY GCM would lead to conviction, but that is clearly not the case.
burnspbesq
@risk premium:
“well, Obama publicly stated that Manning was guilty some time ago. and since all the people involved in the court martial process report, directly or indirectly, to Obama, I don’t think there’s much mystery about the outcome.”
With all due respect, there is no factual basis for your belief. If you choose to believe stupid things, more power to you.
Brian S
@risk premium:
That’s about as moronic a statement as I’ve ever read on the interwebs, and that’s a tall bar to clear.
Villago Delenda Est
The CA does have total discretion in this case, and can override whatever the IO comes up with. The IO’s purpose is to provide a disinterested party to glean the facts of the case and present them to the CA with a recommendation, as Soonergrunt indicated.
IOs are usually randomly selected officers (most likely field grade) off a duty roster, to provide some cover for the “disinterested” part, but command influence can be, um, a problem, as Soonergrunt also indicated.
I’ve been assigned to these sort of “administrative judicial investigations” in the past myself, for less serious things, like determining if a death occurred in the line of duty, or processing a soldier for discharge from the service under less than honorable circumstances.
Brian S
Just one thing to add here: if Manning did what he is celebrated as having done, then he’s guilty. I mean, you can argue that he’s a whistleblower and thus entitled to certain protections (and I suspect that may be part of his defense), but he’s still guilty.
The Sheriff's A Ni-
And here… we…. go.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt:
you are an unmitigated asswipe imho.
soonergrunt– “SECDEF has no reason to care about Assange one way or the other”
How about FUCKING PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE?
risk premium
@burnspbesq: there’s no factual basis to believe that Obama publicly stated that Manning was guilty? wrong. i’m too lazy to find it, but try google.
Dr. Squid
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
@Samara Morgan:
Aaaaand here it comes.
Samara Morgan
Shorter soonergrunt: its okfine if Manning is tortured and held without charge for 569 days to get him to roll over on Assange. Because Assange outed “good secrets” and had sexitime with two swedish women.
The Dangerman
@Brian S:
He might be a whistleblower if he had revealed information about some reasonable number of events with which he had some knowledge; his actions were a data dump and, unless he’s an amazing speedreader, he had no knowledge of the events he exposed. He can rot for all I care (assuming, of course, he’s found guilty).
Amir Khalid
@risk premium:
Well, the military seems to have PFC Manning dead to rights, based on what has been disclosed so far including manning’s own admissions. So it’s my expectation that this case will go to trial and conviction. Bradley Manning isn’t the martyr for THE TRUTH that m_c will surely claim he is, but I’m not entirely convinced that he’s doomed to get less than a fair shake as far as legal process is concerned.
This matter is over, and you should let it drop.
Samara Morgan
@Dr. Squid: you and twilight are both asswipes too.
burnspbesq
@risk premium:
Nice try, but you’ve either misunderstood or deliberately misstated what I said. There is no factual basis for believing that the President’s public statements will be outcome-determinative.
Soonergrunt
@Samara Morgan: Nice–left out the context because it wouldn’t work for your assertion–the context being the claim that Manning was being tortured to get information on Assange, and my estimation of the real-world value of that claim, even assuming that it were true.
Look, I know that you don’t like to let the real world invade your fantasies but could you at least try to not be so transparently stupid? Just for shits and grins every so often?
The Secretary of Defense cannot charge Julian Assange with Jaywalking, let alone any other crime.
Arm The Homeless
Again, thanks Sooner, Risk Nozzle will be a fine addition to the Pie Filter.
Oh, and Samara: Julian is just not that into you. Sorry hunny-bunny.
burnspbesq
@Samara Morgan:
Shorter Samara Morgan: I am ignorant and biased, and couldn’t care less about the facts or the law.
Dr. Squid
@Samara Morgan:
Awwww, I’m touched.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid: that isnt what Daniel Ellsberg said.
you really make me sick, maftoon.
the Iraqi doc dump is what finally got us out of Iraq.
burnspbesq
@Samara Morgan:
Apologist for alleged sexual predator is an odd position for you to adopt.
risk premium
@Amir Khalid: “you should let it drop.” thanks for the advice, dude. not sure who appointed you as the arbiter of what should and shouldn’t be discussed here, but I doubt it’ll be dropped anytime soon. and certainly not just because you say so.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: do you want some more, Amerikkka Fuck Yeah bot?
my search fu is strong.
you have to be the worst front pager ever.
Steve
It’s a shame any American at all has sympathy for what Manning did. Every time I see one of those “Free Bradley Manning” signs at a protest I wince.
burnspbesq
@Samara Morgan:
“my search fu is strong”
If it continues to be deployed in the service of stupidity, the strength of your search-fu matters not.
Samara Morgan
@burnspbesq: like Manning, imho Assange is innocent until proven guilty.
you are just a creepy old crotchsniffer like sooner and eemom.
CarolDuhart2
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20056566-503544.html
There’s no getting around the fact that Manning did a massive data drop of classified material under conditions that were illegal for him to leak. This was information Assange was not given permission to have and certainly not to publish.
Brian S
@Samara Morgan: So the document dump is what convinced the Iraqi government to tell the US that our troops won’t continue to get immunity? Or are you suggesting that the Iraq war was really popular until the heroic Manning dumped those documents and lifted the scales from our benighted eyes?
burnspbesq
@Amir Khalid:
Liverpool – Man City is much more interesting than this thread.
Arm The Homeless
@Samara Morgan:
Sounds like someone is upset that the only people who will acknowledge her existence only do so to remind her that she is not nearly as bright as she would like to think she is.
How do you live knowing that your only use in life is to make everyone else feel better about themselves? I mean, at least Julian tried to piss-off people who matter, what’s your excuse?
Samara Morgan
@burnspbesq: i think ill go back and get sooners comments on manning around the time of the Afghan doc drop.
but maybe i better not, because he might publish my IP so people can stalk me.
;)
burnspbesq
@Samara Morgan:
” like Manning, imho Assange is innocent until proven guilty.
When have I ever said otherwise, liar? Perhaps you’d like to explain why you don’t feel the same way about Jerry Sandusky and Bernie Fine.
Peter
Step one: Soonergrunt explains the procedures which Manning will be going through as part of his military trial in a levelheaded way.
Step two: Matoko and her Batshit Brigade latch onto this in an extremely bizarre fashion as some sort of evidence of malfeasance and jingoism on soonergrunt’s part.
Step three: The rest of us wonder what the fuck is going on in this thread.
CarolDuhart2
@Samara Morgan: In a court of law, there has to be that assumption. But the data dump is a proven fact. The act alone is illegal, regardless of what information was in the material, so the court has him to rights. Assange is irrelevant: Manning is guilty regardless of who the recipient was or what was done with the information.
Obama’s statements are also irrelevant. There is no jury pool to contaminate, and a one-off statement that nobody really remembers isn’t going to change anything.
burnspbesq
@Samara Morgan:
No one will stalk you. You’re not worth the bother.
Samara Morgan
@Brian S: al Jazeera published the Iraq docs. that enabled Muqtada to collect 2.5 million signatures supporting kicking the americans out. It also turned any continued american presence into political death poison for Maliki and Alawi.
Malik especially would have loved to keep sukking the anti-terrorism tit.
We turned over the three largest airbases ever built on foreign soil.
And now Iran will be flying joint air defense missions with Iraq…..and not the US.
you people are just sickeningly stupid americancentric cudlips.
there are no “good secrets” anymore.
Amir Khalid
@Samara Morgan:
Daniel Ellsberg was motivated by specific knowledge i.e. that the US government was trying to bluff its way through an unwinnable war. He leaked to the New York Times the specific papers that documented this truth exhaustively, and was prepared to pay the price for it by going to jail.
In contrast, Bradley Manning was not setting out to expose any particular truth or truths about the US war effort in Iraq. He leaked an indiscriminate dump of communications to Julian Assange at Wikileaks. His motives may have had something to do with his being unsuited to military life, but they don’t to seem to have been first and foremost about exposing an important truth. So even if Ellsberg sees him as a kindred spirit, I don’t.
Samara Morgan
@CarolDuhart2: like the pentagon papers?
the pentagon papers helped end the Viet Nam war.
WL helped end the Iraq war.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid:
exactly like Iraq and A-stan, right mufassir maftoon?
Amir Khalid
@burnspbesq:
Oh yeah. After putting themselves in an early lead at Liverpool, Manchester City have managed to equalize before half-time. Will the team that scores the winning goal be the team that wins the match?
Brian S
@Samara Morgan: You’re actually arguing that the Wikileaks docs are what made the difference. Seriously. Like the US presence was so incredibly popular before those docs were released.
Neutron Flux
I think you are being harsh, but still it is funny as hell.
Samara Morgan
ALL:
i suppose i have to explain that. a mufassir in al-islam is someone trained in islamic scholarship, trained to interpret the Quran.
i call Khalid the mufassir of the maftoons, because he interprets the Noble Quran in western chauvinistic fashion.
Dr. Squid
@Brian S:
I do believe she’s also arguing for time travel. Didn’t we agree to get out before said dump?
Dr. Squid
@Samara Morgan:
Actually, no, no one cares that you’re a bigot. Way too garden variety and boring.
Amir Khalid
@Samara Morgan:
Look, Obama was planning to get US troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan anyway. We’ve known this since he was campaigning for president. So how much, if anything, did Manning really change with his document dump to Wikileaks?
Brian S
@Dr. Squid: Far as I can tell, she’s arguing for an alternate universe.
Samara Morgan
@Brian S: no im not saying first causes– i said the Iraq doc drop contributed. it also contributed to declining support for the Iraq war in the american electorate.
Peter
Matoko, maftoon may not actually be a racial slur, but you’re sure using it like one. It also seems a bit rich coming from a spoiled white girl Islamaboo like yourself.
eric
The issue of guilt is likely fait accompli. The issue of sentencing is where, I suspect, the larger political issues will show themselves. He broke the law. Hardly any doubt. The political question is whether he should be treated less harshly because of his motivations.
CarolDuhart2
@Samara Morgan: The Vietnam war was already ending when the leak occurred. The Iraq War ditto. Nothing really changed.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Dr. Squid: Why let facts get in the way of obstinate adherence to a fantastical position? I mean, really, isn’t that what we “olds” do that just makes us stupid in the view of matoko?
Samara Morgan
@Dr. Squid: we tried pretty damn hard to stay.
@Amir Khalid: the SOFA required the end of troop presence. Obama and Panetta made multiple offers of continued troop presence which were all rejected. The repubs tried to vote in a continued troop presence but were unable to persuade Maliki to re-negotiate the SOFA.
Brian S
@Samara Morgan:
Oh for fuck’s sake. The Iraq war hasn’t been popular in the US since 2005 at best. Obama won the primary and the presidency in large part because of its unpopularity. Are living time in reverse or something, because that’s the only way your statements make any sense at all.
Dr. Squid
@Samara Morgan:
Great, yet another entitled honky who parrots Greenwald.
Amir Khalid
Off topic: Manchester City’s Mario Balotelli has just got a second yellow card for elbowing Liverpool’s Martin Skrtel. Just as I was thinking that “Mario Balotelli” must be Italian for “Wayne Rooney”, the BBC liveblog noted a tweet saying exactly the same thing.
Samara Morgan
@CarolDuhart2: dumbass, Amerikkka tried very, very hard to stay in Iraq.
that is what the Iraq docs published on al-Jazeera accomplished. Made it impossible for the US to keep any continuing troop presence.
turned american troops into political death poison for Maliki and Alawi.
we can only keep 150 troops there– not even enough to guard the billion dollar Vatican sized embassy that your taxpayer dollars built there.
;)
Soonergrunt
@Brian S: She has never concerned herself with making sense.
Amir Khalid
@Soonergrunt: Or with common courtesy toward fellow commenters, either.
CarolDuhart2
Really? Obama campaigned on leaving Iraq, the quibble this year was over a residual number left to protect the embassy, train the Iraqi troops, and deter outside aggressors until Iraq can do so on its own. As it is, there will be only 1600 left to protect the embassy and that’s it.
Also, when have you heard of Iraq lately? If we were really trying to stay, where are all the ex-Iraq veterans now coming from?
The Sheriff's A Ni-
@Peter: Yep. Why anyone replies to Loco-chan is beyond me.
Brian S
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-: In my defense, she’s usually captured by the pie filter. But I’m on my iPad right now, and the pie filter doesn’t work here (at least not that I know of). Wish to Jeebus it did.
Peter
@Samara Morgan: Says the fantastical image inside your eyelids. In reality, we’ll never actually know if the data dumps made it impossible, or if it was already impossible. The US Occupation hasn’t been as popular as a kick in the face for a long, long time before Assange uploaded some documents onto the internet and you declared him as our Lord and Savior.
And this is why engaging in counterfactuals is silly.
burnspbesq
@Amir Khalid:
Balotelli’s headcase-fu far surpasses Rooney’s.
Also: are USC quarterback Matt Barkley and Man City goalkeeper Joe Hart actually twins who were separated at birth? The resemblance is uncanny.
burnspbesq
@Neutron Flux:
I am old and creepy, but I draw the line at sniffing her crotch. God only knows what one might find lurking there.
Maude
@CarolDuhart2:
Maybe the ex Iraq soldiers are coming from Iran. Makes sense to me, in dreamland.
Whiners gotta whine.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Amir Khalid: And she seems to hold special enmity for you, as the genuine version of her current poseur identity. Lucky you.
I’m still chuckling at your response to the question about the Malay equivalent of as cold as the other side of the pillow, or whatever the expression was. “I don’t know what that means in English” or words to that effect. Thanks for that.
Loneoak
@The Sheriff’s A Ni-:
And yet people reliably do. It was so much nicer around here when she was banned.
Cassidy
@Samara Morgan: Sweetheart, I like you; I always have, but you are seriously misinformed. We are leaving Iraq because of the SOFA. The Iraqi Gov’t wanted the power to detain, prosecute and incarcerate American SM’s and Contractors for any alleged crimes. We don’t do that. We never have.
Norbrook
@Samara Morgan: That’s one of the dumbest statments I’ve heard. Consider that the 2006 election saw a big change in Congress because the American public was sick and tired of Iraq, and ending the war was a big part of the 2008 campaign. All long before Manning had his “fuck this shit” moment.
Let’s say, for example, that I’m a hospital records clerk.
First case:I find out that a doctor is doing very questionable and dangerous unnecessary procedures on patients. So I gather the relevant information from the records, and send them to either the legal authorities or to the press.
Second case: I’m just pissed off that my boss hates me, I’m low-paid, and I’m getting told I’m likely to be fired. I decide to make copies of everything in the hospital’s records and send them to someone who gives copies to everyone under the sun.
The first case is whistleblowing. It’ll probably cost me my job if I’m caught, but that’s a consequence I have to accept. I have knowledge of wrong-doing, I have taken steps to bring it to light, and I realize that there are consequences to that.
The second case is simply “disgruntled employee,” unethical, and harmful to all. Yes, there might well be the evidence in my dump that there was a doctor doing wrong. But there are thousands of people whose records I released who didn’t do anything wrong, whose information is now out there for all to see.
Manning is the second case. He’s not a hero, and he’s not a whistleblower. He’s simply a career screw-up who decided to do a “fuck you” to the military, and didn’t think he’d get caught. He neither knew nor cared about what he was releasing, just that it was “classified information” that he was duty-bound to keep classified.
Now for that alone, he’d be facing charges. Add in the damage he did, he’s facing a lifetime in Fort Leavenworth. You know what? I have absolutely no sympathy for him whatsoever.
Amir Khalid
@Loneoak:
She declared GBCW on Saturday and was gone for all of, like, ten minutes. There’s something about this place that just calls to her.
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
As m_c would put it, the maftoon aims to please.
Soonergrunt
@Cassidy: Well, we have SOFAs in place in many countries that allow for local prosecution and imprisonment for US military personnel and family members for crimes committed in the host country.
At least one guy that I know of was charged by the German prosecutor’s office in order to keep him from being shipped stateside for a capital trial when he was accused (they had DNA and surveillance video) of raping and murdering a child. There are a few Sailors and Marines serving sentences in Japan for crimes there.
In this case, the US side wanted full immunity for military personnel assigned outside the embassy, and the Iraqis (rightly, IMO) refused that requirement, even as they wanted the continued presence.
As far as the Embassy Marines, my understanding is that they have diplomatic passports and immunity under the Vienna Convention.
Even for all of that, m_c is still wrong about damn near everything she says.
Soonergrunt
@Amir Khalid: If she came back because of me, that’s another crime for which I’ll have to mea culpa on the front page.
Damn.
piratedan
open thread, football?
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Soonergrunt: I think mistermix posts are her actual siren calls, but you added a bit of a sirenic tone by writing about PFC Manning, who’s connected to St. Julian of Her Fantasies. Couldn’t be helped.
Yutsano
@Soonergrunt: Nah. She was back long before that.
Soonergrunt
@piratedan: Done.
piratedan
@Soonergrunt: Grazie!
MikeJ
@piratedan: Good weekend for Chelsea!
piratedan
@MikeJ: I was actually quite happy for St. Johnstone tbh…. 4th on the table and a game in hand….
ruemara
Manning himself said he did the datadump-not a whistle blowing. He did it deliberately, to punish the military. Arguing that he was a noble crusader is silly. Did he drop information that could perhaps have been useful in swaying some people’s opinions? Yes. But it had nothing to do with his intentions. And frankly, the idea that some converted white chicklet is a better muslim and can run around slinging slurs at people based on their religion is pretty damn nasty. I don’t hold Assange or Manning in esteem. I think some level of argument can be made for a protected whistleblower status, but, Manning has never, ever said he was doing it to enlighten anyone and you’d do well to acknowledge that.
Joseph Nobles
OT:
PILGRIM FUNNIES! (Doowaw-dink!)
http://youtu.be/aRatRKJtdEw
From Glenn Beck’s new channel. OK, back to the grind.
Yutsano
@Joseph Nobles: What. The. Hell. Did. I. Just. Watch??
keith G
Some loose ends
Remember that the Pentagon Papers were historical documents about the origins of the war. They had nothing to do with ongoing operations. The main contribution of the leak was to make Richard Nixon paranoid as hell – with well known results.
Citing those documents in this case is not all that useful.
Joseph Nobles
@Yutsano: Pilgrim Funnies, dude. People pay premium to access that fine programming right there. #AirGuitar
Samara Morgan
@CarolDuhart2: guess you didnt read the news for months. the mil brass wanted to leave 27k troops, downscoped to 10k and further downscoped to 3k.
still no deal.
you prolly dont know that every friday since feb has been a day of rage in baghdad either.
that is the beauty of democracy.
it was political death for any elected Iraqi politician to try to re-negotiate the SOFA to keep american occupier/invaders on.
damned ingrates.
;)
Samara Morgan
@keith G: ellsberg made the comparison himself.
take it up with him.
I was Bradley Manning
gorram
Okay, so aside from the blatant disregard of rape that’s all over this thread, can I just point out a big fucking thing that no one is talking about?
Bradley Manning identified, at the last point any one had contact with her, as female. Not doing any sort of effort, on the part of the OP, on the part of the chorus of comments, on the part of even the fucking wikipedia article on her, to address that is hugely transphobic. It’s actively disregarding her choices and her identity. It’s a massive exercise in erasure (which trans men and women can tell you all about, in this and other cases). This is why the lawyer’s writing on the subject reads so strangely – he’s at least trying to respect his client, and therefore doesn’t refer to her with masculine pronouns, but he also avoids using female pronouns, because there’s a legitimate concern about this biasing people against his client or against trans men and women in general. I thought balloon-juice was supposed to be a place where we didn’t have to worry about either of those issues?
So, whatever you think of her, please just try to get that part right? Seriously, this is a degree of ignorance or more willful bigotry that is making me question why I’m reading this blog.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid:
yup. please your masters, House Muslim.
Peter
@gorram: I have legitimately never heard of this, and the only sources I can find through googling just indicate that there are rumors about it surrounding him (or her, as the case may be), but no definitive statement from the horse’s mouth.
Yutsano
@Peter: This is the first I’ve heard of this also. While it’s an interesting dynamic, I’m not certain how it relates to the charges.
Soonergrunt
@gorram: I have never heard or seen anything like that at any point before your comment. And yes, the universe abounds with things about which I haven’t heard.
I don’t see how whatever gender Manning asserts has any bearing on the charges and specifications he is facing or might face.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: i come and go as i please.
you and the juicers are actually foreign policy conservatives, did you know that? you want to pretend nothing has changed.
WL changed the world. The Arab Spring changed the world.
Nothing is going back to “normal”.
And we are getting the boot in Pak too.
The Paks hate the droning, and would love to shut the US out.
AND A-stan is going to plant a boot in Amerikkka’s fat white ass too.
Just watch.
Peter
@Yutsano: It doesn’t, really.
If there was strong reason to believe Manning was a transwoman I would absolutely agree with gorram (well, I probably wouldn’t get on people’s nuts about using the wrong pronoun when the fact of Manning’s gender identification is pretty goddamn obscure, but in general principles I would) but from what I can tell the ‘Bradley Manning is transgendered’ rumours are based on one extremely non-definitive chat conversation, which certain members of the LGBT community immediately glommed onto to prematurely claim Manning as One Of Them.
Calling people out on using the wrong pronoun in a huff seems a bit ludicrous when it may not, in fact, be the wrong pronoun at all.
eemom
from what I have read about Manning he is a gay man, not a transwoman.
eemom
btw when I was purchasing an Amtrak ticket recently they had a new T box you could check beside the M and F. First time I’ve seen that.
FlipYrWhig
Please ban Samara Morgan for being chronically abusive.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt:
link or it didnt happen.
for example–I SAID we wouldn’t be able to leave troops in Iraq, didnt i?
and iwasright iwasright iwasright iwasright iwasright iwasrightiwasright iwasright iwasright.
;)
MikeJ
@FlipYrWhig: With her lack of understanding of timelines you might say she is chronologically abusive.
Soonergrunt
@FlipYrWhig: I don’t ban anyone. It’s not my house. Take it up with John.
Samara Morgan
@eemom: Crotchsniffers unite!
Yutsano
@MikeJ:
You could have stopped right there.
eemom
@Samara Morgan:
here ya go, sweetie.
[sniff] [sniff] [sniff]
Nope. Nothing interesting there. Ellsberg is and was an American hero for TPP, but imo he’s full of shit about Manning/Wikileaks — and the only reason he’s speaking out at all is because he was an old forgotten has-been before Wikileaks, and he’s thrilled to be “relevant” again. Harsh but true.
Samara Morgan
@FlipYrWhig: like i havent heard that before.
you should mail Cole.
he luffs mail.
Soonergrunt
@Samara Morgan: two things, moron–
1) “damn near” != totally/completely
2) stopped clocks, law of large numbers, etc.
3) Being right about the US leaving Iraq is kind of like predicting the sunrise. Not worth a whole hell of a lot in value there.
Allan
Bradley who? Give money to buy OWS blankies and booties!
– Jane Hamsher
FlipYrWhig
@Soonergrunt: I don’t care what she’s on about with Assange and other assorted neo-Dragon Tattoo fanwankery. But the constant harassment of Amir should end by some means, voluntary or involuntary.
Samara Morgan
@eemom: and Manning will be an american hero in the history books. … and George Bush will be the goat.
because Manning helped make it impossible for America to stay in Iraq.
Stillwater
@Soonergrunt: If you are alleging that he was “tortured” or mistreated by confinement facility staff for the primary purpose of being dicks to him, well, you can certainly make a pretty strong case for that as there is plenty of documentation for it.
So, you’re admitting there’s ‘plenty of documentation’ of ‘torture or mistreatment’, is that right? That seems like a pretty radical change of views on your part given all the previous discussions where you categorically denied that very thing.
Now, I don’t know why you’re changing your views on this, and of course I don’t know how this will play out in the legal process. But I do find it interesting that you’re now conceding pretty much the entire argument the so-called Manning Defenders have ever asserted wrt his confinement. Well, that and the lack of formal charges while much of this ‘torture or mistreatement’ was going on.
eemom
@FlipYrWhig:
OTOH, the dignity and graciousness with which Amir deflects the petty taunts of the creature is a fine example to us all.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: i was right about occupy wallstreet too, while the rest of you were sneering at drum circles and dirty hippies.
how about…..you admit that maybe Manning did the world a service and Pax Americana hasn’t been that great for the muslim brown peoples of MENA.
And the last 50 years of American FP sukked ass for the indigenes.
No wunner they are so darned ungrateful.
burnspbesq
@gorram:
Manning’s gender-identity issues (assuming they are genuine) are irrelevant to any issue relating to guilt or innocence under the applicable provisions of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. That’s why they aren’t being talked about. And if you can’t see that, there’s no point in continuing this colloquy.
agrippa
I see that there is another keyboard kommando – “Samara Morgan” romping and playing here. Wow!
Samara Morgan, you ripostes are brillaint!! No one has an answer to your brilliant insults.
More typing!!
Samara Morgan
@eemom: because he knows im right.
he is a maftoon, and he is not qualified to be a mufassir.
eemom
@Samara Morgan:
I was right about OWS. So kiss my crony old ass.
Samara Morgan
@Stillwater: 569 days of it.
Samara Morgan
@eemom: link or GTFO
henqiguai
@gorram (#96):
Um, what? Really, where did rape come up as a topic in this thread, aside from Soonergrunt’s mention in the OP as an instance of the CA ignoring the IA’s recommendation?
burnspbesq
@Stillwater:
See comment number nine, above. I extend the same invitation to you. If you think that the circumstances of Manning’s detention constituted torture under applicable law, please provide citations to said law. I think it was inappropriate and counter-productive (if the objective was to get him to give up Assange, it didn’t work) but not torture.
Soonergrunt
@Stillwater: Well, you are only about half right.
First, I concede that he was mistreated while in the Quantico brig, because there is ample evidence that he was. You can even go back to those threads and see where I came to that conclusion. I’ve never hidden it. I changed my views on that subject for the simple reason that I saw evidence that I was wrong. Would you rather I kept being wrong?
As far as the “lack of formal charges” you would be wrong on that.
Here is the charge sheet. It’s been on scribd for over a year now.
Here is a link, dated July 7, 2010 from the Bradley Manning Support Network of the same charges.
The Art. 32 hearing is only to determine whether or not evidence exists to support a prima facie case with respect to the charges and specifications. It is not to ‘formally charge’ the Accused.
henqiguai
@Stillwater (#117):
You’re new to this country and its criminal defendant/prisoner detention practices, aren’t you.
sherparick
The actual term from the UCMJ, Article 32, is “Investigating Officer.” In high profile cases like this the IO is usually a field grade (probably a Colonel), Judge Advocate Officer.
suzanne
@burnspbesq:
Not really. She’s racist and thinks its awesome to discriminate against people on the basis of their weight and looks, so I’m not surprised to find out that she’s a patriarchy-enabler, too.
FourLoko, if your “search-fu” is so great, why haven’t you found those comments you said I made about Romney’s religion being a non-issue? I’m STILL waiting on those links you offered to provide!
suzanne
@burnspbesq:
Not really. She’s racist and thinks its awesome to discriminate against people on the basis of their weight and looks, so I’m not surprised to find out that she’s a patriarchy-enabler, too.
FourLoko, if your “search-fu” is so great, why haven’t you found those comments you said I made about Romney’s religion being a non-issue? I’m STILL waiting on those links you offered to provide!
Soonergrunt
@Samara Morgan: Will you go away forever if I do that?
Stillwater
@Samara Morgan: It’s fascinating how all the previously denied claims of mistreatment are suddenly conceded now that there’s a hearing, since his mistreatment while incarcerated without charges will most likely result in a reduced sentence.
Interesting logic there.
Samara Morgan
@FlipYrWhig: he starts it. if he leaves me alone and quits telling lies about the Quran, i will leave him alone.
Stillwater
@Soonergrunt: Ahhh, good. I remember you being more on the other side – that no mistreatment ever occurred. Sorry about that.
Also, ignore the other comment above where I pick up on the same incorrect theme.
I’m glad you changed your mind about some of this. And actually, I think I do recall you saying some stuff about this even way back when. Moving him to Langley or something to that effect?
Soonergrunt
@sherparick: Thanks! I didn’t even notice that spelling error until just now, and my spell check didn’t catch it. Updated the post.
Peter
@Samara Morgan:
@Samara Morgan:
It must really burn you up, seeing your bullshit refuted by a genuine Muslim, who refuses to dance the little jig you’ve already constructed for him in your mind.
Samara Morgan
@suzanne:
Once again, i am not a racist unless christian and stupid are races now.
And i didnt say i’d discriminate against Christie for gross visual obesity– i said his base would. … and i linked hotair comments to prove it.
im not voting for Romney or Christie– im a flaming liberal.
For instance, i would never have my husband drive my child to a segregation academy every day while pretending to be a liberal.
Anti-mormon sentiment in white voters is an issue. this is empirically true. i dont understand what you are talking about.
agrippa
@Samara Morgan:
More typing!
You are doing an outstanding job !
Uncle Clarence Thomas
.
.
We interrupt the politics of personal destruction for this brief but timely observation: Bradley Manning, Julian Assange, Rosa Parks = Heroes; balloonbaggers, President Obama, eemom = Zeroes.
You may now resume your petty carping and backbiting upon worthy people without further introspection.
.
.
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan:
What, specifically, did he lie about? Would this be your interpretation of the surahs that is still unsupported by any evidence you’ve presented so far?
Soonergrunt
@Stillwater: Well, I was relieved when they moved him to the Midwest Joint Regional Confinement Facility at Fort Leavenworth.
The MJRCF is not part of the US Disciplinary Barracks, which is the long-term confinement facility. The MJRCF is for Servicemembers sentenced for less than three years from the central part of the country. It also maintains a pre-trial confinement facility. Personnel in PTC are segregated from the convicted personnel serving their sentences.
agrippa
@Samara Morgan:
@eemom: link or GTFO
the keyboard kommando hath pronounced an ultimatum! be afraid be very afraid! SWMBO is dangerous when thwarted!
Samara Morgan
@Stillwater: most recent soonergrunt comment on Manning before he became an FP.
sounds an awful lot like “Manning is going to get what he deserves for protecting Assange.”
but you be the judge.
eemom
@burnspbesq:
@Stillwater:
Can I venture to suggest that the disagreement here is whether “mistreatment” is the same thing as “torture”?
eemom
@agrippa:
I already have a call in to the Witness Protection Program.
Peter
@Samara Morgan: Uh, no, that’s not what it sounds like at all. It sounds an awful lot like ‘the only way Manning’s getting out of this is if he rolls over and Assange, and if they really want to get Assange that badly’.
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: the Quran, the hadith and sunnah all have injuctions against proselytizing the poor and ignorant.
Khalid said he doesnt THINK there is a conflict with proselytizing and the teachings of the Prophet. That is denying the shahada, the first pillar….
He is not qualified to be a mufassir.
ask him.
Amir Khalid
@FlipYrWhig:
m_c’s harassment, such as it is, doesn’t bother me much. Even at its worst, I find it only mildly annoying. (I suspect that this bothers her more than it bothers me.) If she is to be banned — not that I particularly want to see it happen — a better reason would be her persistently abusive tone toward Juicers as a whole, front-pagers and commenters alike.
@Samara Morgan:
I’m just wondering, if we’re as stupid and biased and self-righteous and charmed by the West as you insist, why do you keep coming back? Why waste keystrokes trying to browbeat us into agreeing with you? That doesn’t work on the Intertoobz, you know.
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan:
As requested before, exact surahs. And no I won’t just Google them, that’s your task for your assertion.
Neither are you. So who are you to dare impugn upon the One True Judge? Your scales are being weighed here young one.
agrippa
@eemom:
Good.
SWMBO is one mean mommy! especially on line
Soonergrunt
@Samara Morgan: already addressed here.
Your ignorance is surpassed only by your mendacity.
This is just sad.
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: and neither am i qualified to be a mufassir. that is why im citing the Cairo declaration of muslim human rights.
Did you know the constitution of KSA is the Quran?
The perfect fusion of church and state, right?
agrippa
@eemom:
Can I venture to suggest that the disagreement here is whether “mistreatment” is the same thing as “torture”?
You may.
At the end of the day, that is what it probably comes to.
suzanne
@Samara Morgan: I am talking about this thread in which you blatantly lied about my positions, and I fucking caught you at it. (I’ve repeatedly said that Romney’s Mormonism is a BIG issue with evangelicals. Your “search-fu” should show you that.) I’ll direct you to comment #99 in that thread, in which I said, “Yes. I want links to comments in which I stated that Romney’s Mormonism was a non-issue to the GOP electorate and that prejudice against Christie for his weight was morally acceptable. Bring. It. On.” Then in comment #123, you copied the part of my statement (“I stated that Romney’s Mormonism was a non-issue to the GOP electorate and that prejudice against Christie for his weight was morally acceptable.”) to misrepresent my position. That’s some shit straight out of the Romney playbook. You’re probably related. White jack-Mormon racist girl.
Once again, for the record, my daughter attends a neighborhood public school in a very diverse area.
And you’re racist against Arabs and Muslims.
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan: That is not a surah, a hadith, nor a sunnah. Therefore it has no binding upon the Faithful. But keep flailing.
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: again, im not a mufassir. i have to go by the interpretations of real mufassirs.
But islamic jurisprudence on proselytizing the muslims is commonly derived from 16:125.
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: yes, it does. in xianity anyone can interpret the sacred text. This is simply not true in Islam. one must be trained.
the uncreated, revealed Quran is outside time and space. like jinn particles in theory.
that is the source of the whole concept of spacetime and mutawatir and islamic jurisprudence and preventing memetic mutation.
its really elegant.
Khalid would have you believe that islam is just a brown version of xianity. It is vastly different.
THE
But there are no poor and ignorant in modern socialist states Samara. Everyone has at least primary school education, almost everyone is literate.
If they are not, they have access to the wider world through mass media, TV, Internet.
As for, poor: even the poor in modern industrial and socialist states are wealthy compared to the poor in Medieval Arabia.
So would it be correct to conclude that the injunction no longer applies?
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan:
Explain the Sunni/Shi’a divide. Or the Alawi sect. Or the Sufi movement. All of these are based upon various personal interpretations of the Qu’ran and the hadith. I’m not listing every example here even. No religion of a billion followers will ever be practiced in the exact same way by everyone. That is your own little delusion.
THE
Soonergrunt: I am in moderation because I forgot (again) about the Socia1ist word
Samara Morgan
@suzanne:
Muslim and Arab are not races, dimbo. Arabs are semites, like genetic jews, and muslim is a religion.
Soonergrunt
@THE: not anymore.
Peter
@Samara Morgan: I know you’re not going to want to hear this, but that sounds an awful lot like historical Christianity to me. Catholicism in particular.
The empowered religious classes always make religious rules to ensure they remain in power. Hinduism, Christianity, Islam. Nothing is new under the sun.
THE
@Soonergrunt: Thanks.
Soonergrunt
@THE: De nada.
Dr. Squid
@Amir Khalid: That’s probably a question you could ask to any firebagger/Greenwald parrot.
THE
@Peter:
Exactly Peter. With trivial differences of legalistic hairsplitting it is exactly the same as Medieval Christianity.
That is what i keep saying to her. But because she is an ultraconservative scriptural literalist and a authoritarian theocrat she doesn’t want to see it.
Shorter Samara: Yes we are repressive; but on us it looks good.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@keith G:
A couple of other things to keep in mind: The case against Ellsberg was tossed out of court because of the filthy investigative actions of the Nixon administration. Charges could have been refiled later, but for various reasons, weren’t. Neil Sheehan and the NYTimes were, according to the SCOTUS, protected by the First Amendment. There was no such ruling pertaining to Ellsberg.
Peter
@THE: And then of course there’s the cognitive dissonance involved in a person who is such an avid and vocal supporter of question-authority movements like wikileaks insisting that her religious views require constant deferment to authority.
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: and every mufassir that founded a school of quranic interpretation WAS TRAINED.
Islam is a consensus religion. there is no top down authoritah like a pope.
the injunction against translation together with the requirement for islamic scholarship training and the memetic “fixing” of the hadith and sunnah insures there can be no prosperity gospel or snake handlers lifted from short phrases of the Quran.
Its a kind of memetic hygiene that prevents the kind of mutation xianity has suffered.
Chet
Well, and certainly every Catholic has a different take on their religion, as well. It’s human nature to permute.
But that doesn’t mean that Catholicism (or Islam) as a religion isn’t one that disallows for personal interpretation of scripture. Samara is right, and you’re missing the point.
Samara Morgan
why are people attacking my muslimness on a Manning thread?
isnt that the same as attacking Manning for gayness?
Yutsano
@Chet:
Too many negatives in this sentence. I’m not understanding your point.
Which is what, exactly? That her recent conversion means she understands Islam better than a man who has lived it HIS WHOLE DAMN LIFE? That has it immersed into every part of him since his birth?
@Samara Morgan:
You attack Amir’s constantly. Irony just died a little.
Samara Morgan
@Chet: yup. and protestantism allows for untrained people to interpret the sacred texts.
which how snake-handlers, shakers, Joel Osteen’s prosperity gospel and the church of the living word (where people speak in tongues) got their starts.
Peter
@Samara Morgan: That still sounds an awful lot like historical Christianity to me, dearest.
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: ask him if he is trained to interpret the Magnificent Quran.
Samara Morgan
@Peter: catholicism or protestanism?
Peter
@Samara Morgan: Both, actually.
Samara Morgan
@Peter: lol
we all believe in the same Allah, jews, xians and muslims.
but muslims do not believe in the jesus godhead.
because of surah iklas
muslims do not care if xians want to believe in the jesus godhead– they are people of the book afterall.
we care a lot that xians want to force us to believe it too.
proselytizing the poor and ignorant is interpreted as compulsion, in current quranic exegesis.
Chet
I apologize, then (although I think there was only one negative.) Allow me to try it again, more straightforward: Catholicism and Islam as religions specifically disallow personal interpretation of scripture.
That Islam is not a religion where you get to personally interpret its scriptures to your own purpose. That’s the point. (Did Samara “recently convert” to Islam? That doesn’t sound right.) It doesn’t matter how long anybody else has been a Muslim; if they think they’re in a religion that embraces personal re-invention, they’re mistaken.
Chet
@Samara Morgan:
Sorry we’ve not talked in a while, but are you seriously a Muslim now?
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: i do not like him telling untruths about the Quran.
Peter
@Samara Morgan: This comment is just completely incoherent. I want to respond to it but there is nothing to respond to because nothing inside of it makes sense as a response to anything said to anybody in this conversation.
I do believe we’ve hit FourLoko’s saturation point.
Samara Morgan
@Chet: i reverted about 3 years ago….studying arabic started it.
:)
THE
Peter is right Samara; Here is a list of people known to have been burned at the stake for heresy. There are both Catholics and Protestants on the list.
And this is a very far from complete list — it is only the famous cases that history has remembered.
Samara Morgan
@Peter: it is not incoherent– you just reject what im saying.
you cant process it.
suzanne
@Samara Morgan:
HOLY. SHIT.
Did I really just read that?
From She Who Will Ignore Any Topic At Hand To Revert To The Blather Of Her Choosing?
DIAF already, seriously. You’re a liar and a simpleton, and not even worth reading for morbid entertainment value.
Samara Morgan
@suzanne: and you are a cudlip.
moooo mooooo
FlipYrWhig
@Amir Khalid: Well, I appreciate that it doesn’t bother you, but I don’t think we’d see any other regular commenter last very long were she to constantly call fellow commenters “maricón” or “kaffir.” She can be as much a single-minded irritant as she wants on any other issue, but the particular kind of insult she rolls out on you strikes me as a bridge too far.
Peter
@Samara Morgan: Nope I’m pretty sure you going on about how Islam rejects the idea of the Jesus as godhead figure (whoa, you mean Muslims don’t worship Jesus Christ? Blow me over with a feather!) in response to me saying that the control systems implemented by Islamic religious leaders to ensure that religious power stays in their hands sure sounds a lot like the the ones historically used by Christian religious leaders for the same purposes is completely incoherent.
Chet
Oh, well, good luck with that. Does that mean that I’ll no longer be able to recognize your posts under a procession of usernames referencing anime and video games?
Samara Morgan
@Peter: islam is like protestantism in that both are consensus religions. islam is like catholicism in that there are rules for the training of interpreters.
protestantism has no rules for training– anyone can pick up a bible and interpret. catholicism has a top down authority. Islam doesnt.
/shrug
there are similiarities.
but like i said, muslims believe we all worship the same Allah.
Samara Morgan
@FlipYrWhig: but its true.
ask him. he acknowledges being a maftoon, and he isnt trained to be a mufassir.
suzanne
@Samara Morgan: Protestantism isn’t a religion. And Protestant ministers and pastors study at seminary.
Samara Morgan
@Chet: you recognized me here.
;)
reversion to Islam while studying arabic is fairly common– it happened to Pickthall and Asad, and Michael Sells.
i think arabic is a gateway drug for the Quran.
Samara Morgan
@suzanne: but they dont HAVE to– because they can just start a church as a non-denominational protestant.
Peter
And as the final capstone to this completely worthless conversation, I’m just going to say that it’s rather amusing seeing you tie yourself in knots playing more-Muslim-than-thou at Amir when he plainly doesn’t care what you think of him.
Samara Morgan
@Peter: it is in the uncreated, revealed Quran.
surah iklas.
Samara Morgan
@Peter: he admits to being a maftoon.
that just means a muslim charmed by western culture.
he is charmed by western culture.
but he was wrong about witnesses for the shahada, and he is wrong about his westernized interpretation of the Quran.
he is not a mufassir, and he should not be telling people that he can interpret the Holy Quran however he pleases.
suzanne
@Samara Morgan: But that’s not what you said. You said “protestantism has no rules for training” in comment #194, which is very plainly false. Many Protestant denominations have very rigorous rules for training.
As for the assertion that anyone can start a church: yes, in this country, where we (ostensibly) have religious freedom, people can start churches. Those people can claim to be spiritually related to other, more established groups. Those more established groups may or may not claim spiritual kinship with that other church. Most Protestants don’t think that the LDS have fuck-all to do with them. The LDS don’t claim common cause with the FLDS. But that’s not a Protestant thing. Anyone can start any kind of church they want.
So, the question is: Are you completely ignorant, or are you a liar?
THE
Hypothetical Samara:
What if the adoption of certain ideas from modern (and classical) Western culture (some of which are also the common heritage of Islam as an alternative Western culture), are actually critical to human progress?
FlipYrWhig
@suzanne: I believe this is a both-and blog.
Soonergrunt
@suzanne: She is living proof that being one does not preclude being the other.
gorram
@Peter, @Soonergrunt:
I don’t think this has any baring on questions of guilt, culpability, morals, or anything of the sort, but the fact remains that the OP to this thread (and consequently, many of the comments) uses the pronouns Manning was non-consensually assigned at birth, not the ones she chose. If you don’t know anything about pronouns and trans people – read the second point here.
Also, here’s my major sources:
Leaked IMs:
–wherein Manning talked about wanting to transition (most likely a mix of therapy and hormone replacement, but potentially more surgical stuff too), specifically the quotes “i wish it were as simple as “hey, go transition”… but i need to get paperwork sorted… financial stuff sorted… legal stuff… and im still deployed, so i have to redeploy back to the US and be outprocessed”; “waiting to redeploy to the US, be discharged… and figure out how on earth im going to transition”; “now… i spend a lot of time thinking of transitioning… im now very familiar with the process… and have a rough plan of how to get portions of it to work”; “but, i hope i can live a less ambiguous life soon… as i transition”. This isn’t vague, this is pretty explicit – Manning wanted to transition, after some fashion. She is either a transwoman, or she is non-binary, in which case I will gladly eat all my words and apologize for not referring to her in whichever gender neutral terms she would prefer.
Also, she apparently was contacting at least one counselor about how to go through transitioning and related gender identity issues:
–a counselor Manning apparently contacted stated “Bradley felt he was female […] He really wanted to do surgery”
I’m not sure how people could interpret those statements as not Manning not being at least non-binary, if not a transwoman. Let’s show some basic decency and refer to Manning as the gender she identifies with, and for that matter is, which a lot of information suggests is female.
@burnspbesq:
You’re a moron. This is her gender we’re talking about, how do you avoid referencing that, regardless of your opinion on her actions (see what I did right there – they’re called antecedent pronouns, and they’re what I’ve been raising as the issue)? I agree – this isn’t inherently relevant to the discussion, but it is astoundingly cissexist and transphobic to refuse to use what appear to be her preferred pronouns. This might seem like nothing to you, but many (not all) of the trans people I’ve known have had serious issues with their pronouns being disregarded, as Manning’s have been in this thread. It’s a way of erasing their actual gender and assigning them the one that they disagree with having – which is fucking triggering for some people.
@henqiguai: Jesus, control+f sexual predator in this thread and then read this. Seriously, read the thread, or don’t tell me I’m imagining things in it, thanks.
Samara Morgan
@suzanne: two words.
snake handlers.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: to return to topic, can we now say your position on Manning is more….nuanced than it was during the A-stan doc dump?
Samara Morgan
@suzanne: again, protestantism is a consensus religion, and has no Pope.
sure, there can be training, but it is not REQUIRED. if some protestant doesnt like the anglicans or the baptists, they can just start a non-denominational protestant church.
there is no Vatican.
Arm The Homeless
Wow, very glad I missed this little shit-parade.
Shorter Moko-Loko: “My preferred reading of 7th century text puts my opinion far above yours on everything from household plumbing to the finer points of military justice”
Samara Morgan
@gorram: wow.
hahaha, i bow to superior troll skillz.
you win the thread.
Amir Khalid
@Samara Morgan:
This is true. I once said that people should be free to profess as they believe, even if it means leaving Islam. Otherwise such people would be falsely professing Islam under compulsion, which seems to me profoundly unIslamic. Somehow you interpret this as a rejection of the Shahada.
And so every thread in which we both comment, whatever the topic, ends in you haranguing me about my Muslimness. Even the ones about Jerry Sandusky, whom I never heard of until a few weeks ago. Even this one about Bradley Manning. It derails the thread, it gets on everyone else’s nerves. Taken together with your over-the-top rudeness toward those who disagree even slightly with you, it makes people dislike you.
Samara Morgan
@Arm The Homeless: nope, in Islam one cannot just interpret the sacred text without training. its what keeps us from having muslim snake handlers.
;)
THE
@Samara Morgan: Early Reformation Protestantism was sometimes far less tolerant of divergent views.
FlipYrWhig
@THE: Even, or especially, among Protestants. I mean, Episcopalians and Presbyterians hating each other with a passion? WTF is that? And yet it happened for decade after decade in Scotland.
Soonergrunt
@gorram: two things–first, this is a thread on a moderately popular blog that has no value outside its’ own pages, so please chill the fuck out.
Second, transition is also used as a verb to describe the process by which one returns to civilian life from Army service.
“I can’t wait to transition!” “As you begin to transition from military to civilian life, please remember that civilians don’t typically use the F-word as every part of the sentence” and so forth.
Show me something with PFC Manning unequivocally stating “I want to become a woman” and I’ll buy your theory. Manning isn’t reading this thread.
@Samara Morgan: My position on Manning has always been that he should be allowed to put on the strongest, most vigorous defense that he can, to include matters of mitigation and extenuation if necessary in as fair a trial as possible, and that he should, if the Members convict, be punished appropriately, and not unnecessarily harshly. No more, no less.
My position on Assange has always been pretty absolute. I hope he gets hit by a fucking bus, the bus backs up over him again, his clothes catch fire from the heat of the exhaust pipe, and that it happens right in front of me after my morning large coffee, so that I’m standing there with a full bladder, savoring my unwillingness to piss on him to put him out. Either way, I’m sure that you’ll continue your dishonest behavior of selective quotations taken out of context to try to support whatever assertion you are making.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid: you started it in this thread.
and you know very well what i objected to was your statement that you saw no conflict between freedom of speech and the Quran.
that is false, and so you are denying the First Pillar.
do you think you can perform tafsir now? that you are a mufassir?
where is your training then?
you are a liar, currying favor with these people by telling them what they want to hear.
Yutsano
@Samara Morgan:
I absolutely LOVE how you attempt to deny you’re a spoiled rich white girl from Colorado. The fact is Amir knows more about Islam than you EVER will, and that bothers you because he cannot be subordinate to you like that. This is really just a dominance game to you.
FlipYrWhig
@Soonergrunt: OMfG… “transition,” seriously, that’s what that whole strange digression was based on? That’s the stupidest fucking thing I’ve ever heard. “If true,” of course. :P
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: haha, at least you are honest now.
you are still an america-centric bot though….i guess it is only natural that you loathe Julian…he rubbed your nose in what America has become.
Do most military and exmilitary hate Assange?
burnspbesq
@gorram:
I carefully and deliberately wrote what I wrote the way I wrote it, completely devoid of any references to gender, because (as you concede) gender is irrelevant.
If that’s not good enough, that’s your problem.
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: LOL
Khalid didnt even know that no witnesses are required for the shahada.
i would have thought that was basic.
;)
this isnt a muslimness contest. Khalid is not a mufassir and so he cant tell anyone what the Quran “means”.
i quote mufassirs and islamic scholars to you and you demand i give the quranic reference. i am not a mufassir either, and so i quote islamic scholars and jurisprudents on their interpretations.
Mnemosyne
@Samara Morgan:
… says the rich white girl convert.
It’s a common phenomenon for converts to convince themselves that they totally understand their new religion better than those lowly people who were merely born into it, but it’s always unfounded and they just end up making themselves look like posturing idiots.
Anne Laurie
@Chet: The ‘Samara’ entity has said, many times, that s/he grew up in a particularly rigorous version of Catholicism. She now professes to be an adherent of a badly-described version of Islam, which is the only true “most perfect” natural religion of everything… at least if the rest of us infidels know what’s good for us.
In other words, the ‘Samara’ entity has made a Great Conversion much like David Horowitz‘s strident public conversion from Marxist and Black-Panther-hanger-on to far-Right “champion of intellectual freedom” who’s made an excellent living accusing hapless college professors of liebrul bias thoughtcrimes. The Samara-entity has, from all indications, failed — as yet! — to turn her/his newfound Perfect Authoritarian Religion into a profitable career, unless being an internet troll pays much better than is generally assumed, but the role model does exist. Keep Horowitzing, Samara-chan-entity!
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano:
why should that matter?
Samara Morgan
@Anne Laurie: Old JAFI.
here to lecture me about “shariah-ridden brown babies” and harem culture again?
The other way i understand and admire al-Islam is evo theory of culture, sociobiology, and evolutionary theory of games.
The science of Islam.
Islam is an uninvadable culturally stable strategy. that is why the euro/sino paradigm didnt work out for Amerikkka in MENA like it did in Japan and Germany.
And why America spent 10 years, trillions of taxpayer dollars and thousands of soldier lives FOR NOTHING.
QED
Arm The Homeless
@Samara Morgan: The Druze would strenuously disagree with your interpretation.
Soonergrunt
@Anne Laurie: The converted are always the most strident, regardless of whether that is religion, politics, country, sports fandom, music, or whatever. And their knowledge of their new belief system is almost always yards wide and paper thin.
And their leaving one and joining another almost always makes the former better and the latter worse.
Samara Morgan
@Anne Laurie:
i have said many times Sufis are forbidden to proselytize. You are supposed to be an animist. Atheists are supposed to be atheists, xians are supposed to be xians, jews are supposed to be jews, hindus are supposed to be hindus.
bi la kayfah
THE
@Samara Morgan:
If true this is a catastrophe Samara. In an age when most technical progress is taking place overseas.
gorram
@Soonergrunt: Okay, first off, pardon me for having the expectation that this blog, which was the only one to put Wolf’s work through the cleaners like it deserved, would actually do some two minute research on this.
Secondly, if he spent the time you took to immediately respond to my criticisms to actually read the source I posted, you could see the larger context of quotes, for instance:
So tell me I’m completely misinterpreting all of this again, and insist that I’m pulling all of this out of my ass, oh, and before you get on to that though, one last question:
The ostensible meaning of this is that because she’s not reading this thread, it doesn’t matter if we talk about her in perhaps not the most transphobic and cissexist way possible, but one that’s really, really ignorant, it doesn’t matter. This makes perfect sense because-
1. No other trans women or other genderqueer folks ever use the internet, so obviously no one else is going to find this triggering.
2. Being kyriarchically insulting towards a broad category of people isn’t an issue as long as they can’t see it themselves. So, I suppose it’s find to mutter the n-word over and over again, in your opinion, as long as no Black people hear you?
@burnspbesq:
So, you agree that it’s insulting to write in the way I accused OTHER comments and the OP of using? Because I’ve never once said that your pronoun use was insulting, although I did harshly criticize your idea that I should stop talking about this because fucking up Manning’s pronouns and other gender references was unimportant.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: i was an atheist all through high school, post catholicism.
You are what you have the substrate to be, and if the Real desires something else from you, it will appear in your path.
i thought you might like to know the reasons America has failed so profoundly in muslim countries.
I still think it is because westerners do not understand Islam.
i did not understand islam before i began to study it.
Ruckus
Why don’t we try a little test.
Don’t feed the troll. Maybe it will go away.
Unless you enjoy being a pawn in this one sided game of gotcha that it is playing.
Samara Morgan
@Arm The Homeless: arent the Druze christian? and wasnt Sameer Kuntar a druze?
Mnemosyne
@Samara Morgan:
The fact that you can post that sentence unironically is what’s getting you bashed in this thread. Hint: a conversion to Islam did not magically make you a non-westerner. It made you a western Muslim.
Samara Morgan
@Arm The Homeless: oh they’re ismailis.
i read a long argument between ibn taymiyya and al ghazali on ismailis.
FlipYrWhig
@gorram: IMHO it sounds a LOT MORE like Manning is talking about being something other than straight in the military, and anticipating that some people will think it would be easier _out_ of the military but not being certain about that. To wit, transitioning to civilian life.
Uriel
@Samara Morgan:
That quote sounds nothing like this fever dream you’ve presented. Anyone with a 4th grade reading comprehension could see that. The fact that you choose to read what is, in the passage quoted, a fairly neutral discussion of Manning’s chances of cutting a deal under various jurisdictions as an attack says more about you than it does anyone else
Mnemosyne
@gorram:
As far as I can tell, there are lots of rumors that Manning is transgender, but absolutely no confirmation from anyone, including Manning. Personally, I’m not comfortable declaring someone transgender until they themselves (or a designated spokesperson) says so.
If people kept referring to, say, Chaz Bono (to use a recent well-publicized example) as “she” and “her,” I could understand being angry, but unless Manning confirms the rumors, I’m not sure I’m comfortable making that declaration on Manning’s behalf.
Soonergrunt
@gorram: I am not responsible for what you may or may not find triggering.
Samara Morgan
@Soonergrunt: so i get it. epiphany time. you now have some sympathy for Manning because of his treatment. And he is after all, a fellow soljah and fellow american.
But Assange rubbed your nose in all Murrica’s nasty secrets.
And exposed America’s soft underbelly of hypocrisy to the world.
FlipYrWhig
If we start using “hir” and “zie” on this thread, it’s definitely gonna trigger something.
Yutsano
@Soonergrunt: At what point am I allowed to mention there are two regular commenters on this blog who are in various stages of gender transition?
Arm The Homeless
@Samara Morgan: So they aren’t “real” Muslims, because they interpret the Qur’an to hold esoteric meaning, outside of the prevailing Sunni/Shi’a dichotomy? Is that the thrust of your argument, because I would hate to make assumptions without giving you the chance to provide nuance.
arguingwithsignposts
@Ruckus:
I have come to the conclusion that DNFTT is inoperable on this blog. IOW, they never go away.
arguingwithsignposts
@Samara Morgan:
LOL. As if Assange did anything of the sort. Unless you’re claiming Assange was posting docs during the constitutional convention.
or during the trail of tears
or the civil rights era
or vietnam
or ww2
or the 20s
you get the picture
El Cid
I am far more accurate in my understanding and interpretation of the varying religious texts than any of you, and I refuse to debase myself by aiming to prove so.
Arm The Homeless
@arguingwithsignposts: I come to present a new theory. To appropriate the words of Carlin (PBUH): The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we’re gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, ’cause that’s what it does. It’s a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed. And if it’s true that trolling is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate trolls into a new paradigm: the earth plus trolls. The earth doesn’t share our prejudice toward trolls. Trolls came out of the earth. The earth probably sees trolls as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted trolls for itself. Didn’t know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, “Why are we here?”
Trolls…asshole.”
henqiguai
@gorram (#206): Let’s see; ah yes! 1) I don’t read most of tokoloco’s drivel and 2) the only hits for “sexual” I get are from tokoloco or responses to her one reference. And yours. Must be I’m reading a different thread.
Private IMs dealing with someone’s internal conflict does not make a public affirmation and demand, real or implied, for a change in gender pronouns. The dude is still legitimately, and politely, referred to with the pronoun appropriate to his gender. Until he makes a request otherwise. Your outrage at the male pronoun being used because nobody knows about his apparent hidden desire is misplaced.
NobodySpecial
Well, Manning’s guilt is a foregone conclusion, simply because after the mistreatment he was put through, too much could happen if he was found innocent.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@FlipYrWhig: @eemom: Both of these comments are exactly the point. And I fear my thread prediction will be uncannily close to accurate, including the number of insultbleats, which I may have pegged too low.
Soonergrunt
@Yutsano: Run with with it!
Samara Morgan
@arguingwithsignposts: nah.
just Iraq and A-stan. Julian didnt have access to any out of theater stuff.
Do you think America is going to be come a fascist state?
Samara Morgan
@Arm The Homeless: i didnt say “real” muslims …..you did.
i just said Khalid is not capable of performing tafsir because he is not trained.
he cant just decide the Noble Quran is proselytizer friendly.
henqiguai
@Samara Morgan (#226): Answering only because I saw something you said in someone’s reply.
Not sure what you’re really trying to say, but if my interpretation is correct, you’re affirming that modernity cannot make inroads into your faith and daily practices. So, as an Egyptian muslim pointed out to me years ago (and maybe he was yanking my chain), as a true believer and follower of the daily practices, you eschew modern conveniences like toilet paper?
Wrong. The US succeeded in destroying Iraq as a nation and killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. It’s what we’re good at. To the disgust of most Americans. If you’re going to screech about the evils of the West and the US in particular when it comes to oppressing the Islamic world, do try to get it right.
henqiguai
@FlipYrWhig (#242):
Um, scornful and dismissive laughter? Besides, isn’t “zie” a German pronoun? I mean, just because English is a Germanic family language is no reason to start cuttin’ it loose.
Samara Morgan
@henqiguai:
not “modernity”….missionary democracy. In EGT terms uninvadable means that another CSS (like westernstyle democracy) cannot invade.
the jihaadis(for example) love the Net and are very internet savvy. they love modernity. that is how they recruit. they love modern guns and ieds.
@henqiguai:
Iraq is not destroyed.
The Iraqis just planted a boot in Americas fat white judeoxian ass.
Yutsano
@henqiguai:
Sie is either a formal form of “you” or “she”. But it is pronounced “zee”.
@Samara Morgan:
Three million dead and sixteen million displaced Iraqis would like a word with you.
henqiguai
Oh (#257) reading comprehension. Yours. I said “as a nation”. Without American ongoing input your precious Iraq would have torn itself apart due to both tribal as well as religious (i.e. muslim on muslim fratricide; recall, convert, that Sunniis and Shii’as really really don’t get along that well) violence.
Which America is that? If you’re referring to the USA, you’re wrong on all counts; we’re neither Jewish nor Christian, and we’re not white. Granted, some of us need to get a lot more sun; ’cause, really, here you’re right, things are a tad pale back there.
arguingwithsignposts
@Samara Morgan: Quite a goalpost you are moving. Is it heavy?
henqiguai
@Yutsano (#258): Thanks. “Sie” was what I was thinking, but my college German was a long time ago. Haven’t had a use for it since college, except for some pathetic attempts to read the occasional physics paper (that worked out so well I completely gave up the effort).
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Yutsano: This entire blog contribution thing is a dominance issue for matoko. It’s why she gets so vicious with those who won’t prostrate themselves before her self-professed genius, expressed without capital letters or traditional English spelling. It sends her into orbit that her exceptionalism is not acknowledged.
arguingwithsignposts
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
Which is why she continues to post on days-old threads. She has to have the last word.
Arm The Homeless
@Samara Morgan: But Druze are capable to perform tafsir, or ta’wil, as it were? And their interpretations are as valid as any other Muffasir, correct?
BTW, which religious body within Islam is responsible to decide who has been properly trained in the art of tafsir?
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Oh, excellent. I just got back from my parents’ house for T-day and there is a loko-thread.
Soonergrunt
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m here to serve.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: I figured you were doing something of the sort; we missed you. I hope you didn’t use up all your commas over the holiday.
Omnes Omnibus
@Soonergrunt: It appears you caused some drama. Look, I left my number on the counter you someone can let me know when something exciting happens. I miss everything.
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I didn’t use any over the weekend, so I am set.
FromTheBackOfTheRoom
Samara darlin’ you’re harsh but fair. Bringing the light of truth into this dark rectum packed with foul turds is a thankless task but you make the occasional click here worthwhile.
Your merciless de-balling of an authoritarian, twatwaffle lightweight like Soonergrunt is a pleasure to behold.
Also, NobodySpecial and CornerStone. You guys bring the hurt to these stooges like nobody else. I’ll keep stopping by as long as you’re around. I love ya both.
THE
@Samara Morgan:
Good grief Samara are you serious?
The Islamists are memorizing the Quran and the Chinese are sending their kids to cram school to excel in Science and Math.
Sure the Islamist love technology. But how much of it do they manufacture? How much of it do they design?
Clue: Buying imported technology paid for by petrodollars does not count as modernity.
THE
How many Saudi or Iranian flat screen TVs have you seen recently Samara? Smart phones? Cars?
I thought so.
gorram
@FlipYrWhig: Just read the IMs. Seriously, that’s all I’m asking. They’re overtly talking about a different kind of transitioning than you think. There’s (outdated, but still) specific vocabulary, like MTF (male to female, meaning transwoman) that comes up.
@Mnemosyne: I don’t know how much more explicit I can make this – Manning’s gender identity (which, I’m going to say again – is something that we have Manning actually on record as talking about, as well as at least one counselor who disclosed what Manning said to him, so I’m going to stick with female pronouns) has no bearings on guilt or innocence, moral or immoral, fair or unfair, as far as her actions go.
How it does connect to fairness and morality though is that denying her the right to declare her gender seems to be a separate element to larger concerns about refusing her a fair trial, imprisoning her potentially indefinitely, and other questions about violating her basic rights and humanity.
Again, I don’t think it’s fair to connect Manning with all other transwomen or vice versa. She was an individual who took individual action.
@henqiguai: Oh man, so much fail, I don’t even know where to start…
1. Yeah, thankfully the rape apologist crap died down fucking early, but still, it was there.
2. This wasn’t a public affirmation or whatever, sure, but the releasing of those IMs has outed Manning. Are we really as bourgeoisie as to pretend that Manning’s not trans until she puts an ad out in the local paper? Not to mention – last I heard she had effectively no contact with the outside world, so saying you’re not going to stop using male pronouns for her (or, at the very least, not going to view it as assholish when other people do) until she says not to is the same as saying you’re not going to ever stop using male pronouns for her, regardless of all evidence that it’s assholish?
3. You’re not being gender neutral anymore, so I’m going to stop talking about this just being something the OP and other comments have done, because when you say (emphasis added) “The dude is still legitimately, and politely, referred to with the pronoun appropriate to HIS gender. Until HE makes a request otherwise” you’re no longer being gender neutral.
@Soonergrunt: Thanks for asking (oh wait…), but no, I don’t personally find this triggering, but I do know at least one person who I’m pretty convinced would. And yes, society doesn’t view you as responsible in the slightest, but that doesn’t mean that you’re not being careless with facts and your language in a way that makes certain people feel shitty. I get it, this blog doesn’t deal in trigger warnings – I go on her anyway because (from what I’d seen until recently) the writers for this blog avoiding making triggering statements themselves at the very least.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Amir Khalid:
What I would love to see is matokofourlokochan up at a podium in front of a large crowd of people, using her powerful communication skills to get them to understand how wrong they are and have been. To convince them to see things her way.
It would be a thing of beauty.
Mnemosyne
@gorram:
But we really don’t have hir on record. We have some transcripts of online chats that are purportedly Manning’s and a counselor who we’re not sure was actually Manning’s.
I’m not trying to silence anyone here, but I’d rather have more substantial evidence that Manning is transgender than the very flimsy bits that have been presented. It wouldn’t be the first time that a gay man has been mistaken as transgender (or vice versa) so, yes, I would rather have better evidence than what is available before I start referring to Manning as “she,” especially because referring to a gay man as a woman is itself usually meant as an insult.
(Fixed.)
gorram
If you’re just now joining this subdisscussion, let’s look at how the goal posts have moved!
Originally it was “Manning has apparently made no formal announcement of non-maleness, has not even apparently made any serious (publicly acknowledged) inquiries into such a change in status” (from #126). Likewise, “Show me something with PFC Manning unequivocally stating “I want to become a woman” and I’ll buy your theory.” (from #216). Let’s break that down, shall we? Manning has to (in order to convince people to even remotely address this issue):
1. Say these things “publicly”
2. Be “extremely” overt about it.
3. Also have been in the process of looking into chemically and/or physically transitioning.
Let’s see how these things stacked up with the leaked conversations and other interviews, eh?
1. I’ll admit, this wasn’t done publicly, but I’ve contested whether some one’s really trans or not until they’ve told people “publicly”.
2. How’s this for overt:
3. And even if we ignore all the corroboration that at least one counselor did with her, saying that Manning was looking into transitioning (which, by the way, not all trans men and women do, especially in the same way), there’s Manning herself:
(As for why I’m not pulling that out as a public admission, Manning says she was only called out as not being cisfemale once, when she had to show her ID on a train. She wasn’t outing herself, at least intentionally, to people).
(Also, please note that cross dressing is not the same as being trans, but that many trans people prior to chemical or surgical transitioning wear clothing appropriate for their identified gender for extended periods of time).
And yet, this is the response:
“Private IMs dealing with someone’s internal conflict does not make a public affirmation and demand, real or implied, for a change in gender pronouns.” (from #249).
Because clearly, what we need more of in life are accusations that trans people have an “internal conflict” despite overt statements that they’ve made that they had worked out a person solution, and didn’t make a[n adequately] “public affirmation” of their transness, or need to “demand […] a change in gender pronouns” even when they’re inside of a high security containment cell. Would anyone here say these sorts of things about bisexual or lesbian or gay people?
So what is the next bar that I have to dig around on the internet to show you that she very, very, very obviously identified as female? At this point, I’m done doing your research for you – this applies to both comments and the OP.
Soonergrunt
@gorram: Again, I am not responsible for what might or might not trigger you or anyone else.
I guarantee you that right now somebody out there was viciously teased as a child or teenager and referred to as the opposite gender as a form of hazing and taunting, and you would have me risk triggering that person in order to prevent triggering someone else. Since I cannot know what triggers apply to the billions of people who have access to the internet and therefore this blog, the only safe option is to never say anything because I might trigger somebody. You do realize that’s the inevitable ending, don’t you?
I have things that trigger PTSD issues from Iraq and Afghanistan. I work in a hospital. Shall I go to work tomorrow, and demand that the medical students, residents, and interns who hail from Pakistan, India, and middle eastern countries resign their positions immediately lest they trigger me? Perhaps we can reach accomodation–they will only speak if they can speak in unaccented American English, and only from under hoods?
In this world we all, each of us, have to accept that our individual issues are just that. Our individual issues.
I’m not going out of my way to offend anyone, but I can’t go out of my way to ensure I offend no one, either.
Chet
@THE:
No, it’s not. And since it’s not, maybe your go-to example for embracing modernity shouldn’t be “using toilet paper.”
MikeJ
What sort of counselor discloses what a client says in private?
FlipYrWhig
@gorram: Hmm. Well, I guess I had missed that whole aspect of the story until now. I was wrong to be obnoxious about its likelihood, considering the info in the links… but for whatever reason I’m still dubious and will wait to see what more emerges from the story.
FlipYrWhig
@MikeJ: One who realized that his client might be tried for treason? A breach of confidentiality that served a higher purpose of creating a mitigating circumstance, maybe? If it’s true, that is.
suzanne
@Samara Morgan:
Again, Protestantism is not a religion. Training is certainly required to become, say, a Methodist minister. The denominations all have organizational and governing bodies, though I can’t think of any that actually have a leader they consider infallible, as Catholics and Mormons (among others) do. And if you get pissed off that the Methodists won’t make you a minister, you cannot merely declare yourself one.
As for being able to leave and start your own church? Anyone of any faith (or not) can do that in this country.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Soonergrunt:
Fix’t.
Needed moar, uh… vivid. ;)
gorram
@Mnemosyne: That stance I would have been fine with, but that’s not what I’ve seen any other present comment (or, for that matter, the OP) take.
I’m personally skeptical about that though. At what point is the information sufficiently from Manning’s mouth? Do we need video of Manning herself saying this? Because that could be pretty easily faked or even coerced too. The fact of the matter is that she’s in an extremely restrictive environment at the time, and (it appears) she didn’t exactly expect to leave a very, very clear statement that she identifies as female behind in case of such a situation.
I’m fine with acknowledging doubt about what gender she identified with. I’m not okay with saying that it’s very clear that she identified as male, end of story, all evidence to the contrary is clearly fabricated.
(I’m not even clear at this point why that would be done – yes trans men and women are very much so stigmatized, but would you think “disgruntled gay man angry about DADT” would fit so very nicely into certain powerful groups’ narratives? Especially around the time of a push to repeal DADT. The only alternative to this I could see is that some one doesn’t know how groundbreaking Obama’s been for the trans community and thinks that while conservatives might tar Manning as gay, Obama would tar her as trans?)
A more realistic take on this, in my opinion, is that information on this case is difficult to find, what we have points towards Manning being a transwoman, and all of the sources, while not as explicit or foolproof as I’d like, seem to be on the up and up.
If you want me on the bandwagon for this being faked or even just internet-based confusion, I’m not going to bite until you show me at least one additional case of Steven Fishman (of the NY Magazine) and Evan Hanson (of Wired) falling or contributing to something like that. Or failing that, some extensive evidence of journalistic hackery at NY Magazine and Wired.
Soonergrunt
@Odie Hugh Manatee: Thanks! I need all the help I can get.
henqiguai
@Chet (#277):
That was me, not THE.
arguingwithsignposts
@suzanne:
Not quite so for baptists, sadly.
suzanne
As for the issue of gender address on this blog, I absolutely concur with gorram that we should use language in accordance with the each person’s selected gender identity. I don’t know much about this aspect of the Manning story, so I won’t comment on it, but I think the posters and commenters on this blog could do better in terms of social justice and equality-promoting language. That’s why I objected to the fat insults, that’s why I object to sexist and racist shit when I see it. It costs nothing to be inclusive, and as liberals, who ostensibly give a fuck about forwarding the common interests of all people, I would love to see that become blog policy.
Peter
Alright that’s quite enough of this nonsense.
Soonergrunt: It does appear from the evidence provided that Manning was not cisgendered in some way or another. In these cases it’s considered polite to use the pronouns they prefer. Since we don’t know what they are in this case (no, gorram, not being cisgendered does not automatically make Manning a transwoman, and it is sort of problematic for you to assume that it does), at least some token effort at acknowledging it and working around it would be good. It’s just polite.
Gorram: You went about this entirely the wrong way. Tossing accusations of ‘massive trans erasure’ and bigotry only makes sense of your audience has some idea that there is a transgendered individual involved. Nobody here except you had ever heard of this aspect of the case before. We had never heard of it becauseas you admit, WHO CARES what Manning’s gender identity is. It’s not in any way germane to his case, and is a minor and incidental detail.
You can’t accuse people of engaging in bigotry before they even know that there’s a minority involved. The way you opened this discussion was extraordinarily aggressive and off putting. That you took half a day to provide strong evidence to support your claim only made people more prickly at you. This was a fuckup on your end too.
Now can we please drop this asinine thread of conversation?
Peter
Whoops I accidentally a ‘his’ in there and I can’t edit from my phone. Pretend that’s not there.
suzanne
@arguingwithsignposts:
All Protestant groups are different. Hell, churches within the same denomination are often different. But I have to remember I’m talking to FourLoko, who didn’t even know why Martin Luther began the Protestant Reformation. Her knowledge of world religions is sorely lacking.
henqiguai
@Peter (#288): Spoilsport
gorram
@Soonergrunt: Seriously? You can’t broach the issue of trans people existing without triggering people who were teased for gender non-conformity (real or perceived)?
That’s actually two groups with enormous overlap. You know that’s exactly what Manning complained about in tandem with issues of trans erasure (and when I say that, I mean, refusing to refer to her as female). Hell, just read the IMs-
On her not being adequately masculine:
On her gender identity being challenged:
Soonergrunt
@Peter:
I rather thought that was my point.
Odie Hugh Manatee
@Soonergrunt:
NP, I live to fix. ;)
@Soonergrunt:
How about a compromise? Instead of referring to Assange as a he or a she, how about “it”?
As in “let’s get it over with already”.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@suzanne:
Edited for clarity.
Soonergrunt
@gorram:Way to miss the point
Not terribly surprising, really. People riding their hobby horses rarely go where they actually need to go. They just sit there, rocking on the same ground. Over, and over, and over again.
gorram
@Peter:
Oh, isn’t this awkward? I said “She is either a transwoman, or she is non-binary, in which case I will gladly eat all my words and apologize for not referring to her in whichever gender neutral terms she would prefer”(from #206). Reading things I’ve said, it’s just radical enough of an idea to work!
Uh, yes you can. Even if you don’t understand this, let me try and sum it up for you – assuming everyone’s cis until proven otherwise is problematic (say, about as problematic as assuming that “not-cis” is trans, which, if you actually read the comments I’ve made, I didn’t do, thanks for noticing though).
Oh yay, a TONE ARGUMENT. Go ahead and call me SHRILL next. If only I was non-binary or trans myself, then you could call me UPPITY!
Oh, I totally forgot, this is my day job, to correct fucking morons on balloon-juice, who can’t be arsed to read links I provided? Yeah, because it’s not like I had better things to do, came back to a shit strewn thread and then provided links… no, not in the slightest.
gorram
@Soonergrunt: Really? Just pointing out that being trans or non-binary is itself one of the ways that gender gets kyriarchically enforced is enough to make you just give the fuck up on me? Kid gloves are fucking off – you made a fucking choice, own it. You decided to either ignore the issues surrounding Manning’s gender identity while researching or when I raised them, and not by using the pronouns that all of the evidence points toward her preferring. You decided that cismen who were attacked as “effeminate” could be insulted by even a cursory mention that Manning didn’t identify as male. You valued the potential offense that a cisman could have from being reminded that transwomen (or, we could still argue, non-binary folks) exist as more important than the othering transwomen and non-binary folks (and, to some extent, I’d argue, transmen as well) felt because of your erasure of Manning’s decisions about her gender identity. You valued avoiding potential pain from remembering that trans and non-binary people exist over avoiding potential pain from remembering that trans and non-binary people are systematically forgotten.
You are cissexist.
henqiguai
@gorram (#297): Hey, um, gorram; your link’s broke. You b¡tch about nobody reading your links, then you go and put up a dud.
gorram
To be fair, I was ranting about previously posted links, but sorry! This should be the link. It was honestly pretty tangential to the larger argument.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
I couldn’t exactly leave it at 300, now could I?
Arm The Homeless
@gorram: You need to slow your damn roll. Unless you’re family or friends, who gives a flying fuck about what you think Pvt. Manning wants. As the family member of an out trans person I can say with all honesty that she would tell you to take your good intentions elsewhere and stop causing drama so you can feel self-righteous. Trans people can fight their battles, stop thinking you are here to save anyone but yourself.
Thanks for the concern
Ruckus
@arguingwithsignposts:
I’m afraid you are 100% correct.
I was hoping someone would see the testing part and give it a try. But then I am an optimist.
Dr. Squid
303 posts, 68 are m_c insultbleats.
Missed but in the neighborhood.
Arm The Homeless
@Dr. Squid: (sweeps his own troll-feeding under the rug) I expect this type of crap to go on for a few weeks until Sooner is old-hat. She will find her own equilibrium. In the mean-time, let us continue to point and laugh.
William Hurley
Meanwhile, Manning won high praise for his bravery as part of the ceremony in which WikiLeaks was honored with the Walkley Prize for Excellence in Journalism in Brisbane, Australia.
WikiLeaks’ effort to pass US diplomatic cables through to the MSM proved to be key components, in the eyes of regional policy & diplomatic experts, in fueling the “Arab Spring” – which though inconvenient for the Obama Administration was a moment of historical joy for those who loosed the yoke of dictatorial rule.
Remember that when you think about the President’s unprecedented war on government “Whistle Blowers”.
Soonergrunt
@gorram: No, moron. You are making three mistakes–
one that I seek to offend anybody,
two that you have a right to speak for PFC Manning on what is perhaps the most personal issue any person can possibly have, three that I give a good Goddamn about your opinion any more than I do anyone else’s.
You bore the shit out of me with your hobby horse and your inability to actually understand what is said to you. One last time–and I won’t bother to check if you get it or not–you and your issue have no more value or import to me than does anyone else’s. I will not go out of my way to offend, but neither will I sit paralyzed with fear over whether or not I offend, especially concerning outrage junkies like yourself, so desperately looking to be offended, and I will not jump through a bunch of hoops for someone who presumes to make demands on behalf of someone they’ve never met and for whom they cannot realistically assert, let alone prove agency.
Tone in DC
John…
Please ban this truculent, compulsive, prevaricating nuisance.
This thread has been spammed so badly the pie filter won’t help it very much.
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Arm The Homeless: I’m not sure about that, she still froths at the mouth at practically every post by mistermix.
Arm The Homeless
@The prophet Nostradumbass: That was slightly pollyannish on my part. But hope springs eternal. Like a fungus…
Yutsano
@William Hurley:
How beautifully chauvinistic. In fact the big spark and the final straw was a frustrated fruit seller in Tunisia who could no longer live under his country’s oppressive system. So he immolated himself. THAT was the spark. That, finally, moved the citizenry of the Arab world to stand up and say, “No more.” Assagne had fuck all to do with it. The Arab/Muslim nations did this on their own.
Peter
@gorram: I have neither the time nor inclination to correct every single ridiculous thing you said there, so I’ll just hit the highlights.
First: No, there is nothing problematic about assuming that Bradley Manning identified as male when every single piece of reporting on the subject that we had heard described Manning as male, and we had not heard anything to the contrary until literally today. To say otherwise is laughable.
Second: Erasure is a real problem but it’s one that occurs when people either deliberately erase or remain willfully ignorant to something’s existence and nature. It’s not erasure on any meaningful level when people are simply misinformed as is the case here. Yes, if you really feel like arguing semantics on this point you can say that the net result is the same, but that doesn’t mean the appropriate response is the same.
Third: Bullshit you weren’t making personal attacks. Bigotry is not a character-neutral descriptor. I have literally never seen it applied solely to actions as opposed to people, in the way one uses the term ‘racist’ or ‘sexist’ or etc, and I’ve spent more than my fair share of time delving into essays on these topics. And even if you did intend it that way, you didn’t specify it.
I’m not dumb. I can see exactly what went on here. You assumed that we all knew about Manning’s gender identification question, and went in guns blazing on the assumption that we knew and were deliberately ignoring it. Then when you turned out to be wrong you just dialed it up to compensate. Don’t even try to deny it, it’s plain as day.
Fourth: The Tone Argument is a term with meaning, you irritating little twit. It’s not a buzzword you get to use to avoid having to admit to having acted like an asshole. It’s a specific type of argument derailment, in which one changes the topic to the speaker’s tone in order to avoid having to admit that they are right. It is not any statement which can be construed as being about tone. If I was employing the tone argument I would not have prefaced my statement to you with equal time to soonergrunt about how you were right on the fundamentals of your position and he should modify his behavior appropriately.
The fact is that you barged in, completely misread the situation, and went full scorched earth, wasting a possible learning moment by some. And, you weren’t even angry in a coherent fashion! For example, you somehow completely failed to understand that when you are making an assertion that is not common knowledge (like, say ‘Manning does not identify as male’) it is on you to provide support for your statements. This is a fundamental principle of argument. If you don’t, we either dismiss you as a crank or take a casual look on the Google machine and possibly get the wrong idea (as I did).
All anybody took away from this exchange is that you acted like an asshole. And, well, you did. You were right, but you were also an asshole. Not mutually exclusive. That might make you feel good about yourself but it sure isn’t a productive use of anybody’s time.
This isn’t someone trying to wiggle out of admitting to something. This is someone on the side you ostensibly represent, talking strategy to you. This was a fuckup. Learn from your mistakes.
AxelFoley
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
On the fuckin’ money, my dude!
And I’d really appreciate it if you could let me know the numbers to Powerball. I’ll give you half, I promise.
AxelFoley
@Allan:
LOL, you just won this damn thread
Mnemosyne
@gorram:
I am not fine with making statements about another person’s gender identification without that person making their preferences clear. Especially when the person making an outright declaration about someone’s gender ID doesn’t actually know that person.
Otherwise, it feels a whole lot like “outing” someone against their will to me. Are you completely, 100 percent sure that Manning is open about hir current gender ID, or is zie someone who was still exploring it in private and was not quite ready to make it public until it got splashed all over the internet?
Samara Morgan
@Yutsano: the diplo cables contributed to Tunisia, and to the Arab Spring.
read an learn.
Social media gets a lot credit too.
Inspiration for the Arab Spring and OWS
Bouazizi was also a muslim.
All the Arab Spring movements were started and organized on Facebook and twitter, all fed on and propagated on al-jazeera info feeds, and all include some local franchise of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Its the end of of Pax Americana. you need to accept that.
Samara Morgan
i wonder how the Muslim Brotherhood will do in elections today?
will America cut off egyptian aid if the MB sweeps the parliament?
Samara Morgan
@THE:
memorizing the Quran is like passing the bar exams– its like a selection gradient for legal cognitive ability. Islamic law is all derived from quranic exegesis. KSA’s constitution IS the Quran.
c’mon spock…its like q-physics. you have to be able to rewire your brain a little.
Are your synapses ossified?
Its a completely different culture– the clergy ARE the lawyers, the lawyers ARE the clergy.
THE
@Samara Morgan:
I’ll keep my investments in East Asia, thanks Samara.
THE
@Samara Morgan:
I think it depends what happens to the peace treaty with Israel.
But you should not underestimate the economic situation facing Egypt.
THE
It does not help that the European economies are increasingly fading under the strain of the austerity measures and financial crisis.
A lot of people are warning that a major financial collapse of the eurozone could be imminent. If that happens, it will have a major impact on peripheral regions like N. Africa.
THE
These days I try very hard not to let superstitions enter my mind. I need my cognitive skills fine-tuned for critical rationality.
Mjaum
The amount of ad hominem and “I am so much smarter than you”-ism in this thread, including by the original poster, is way too high. If this was a sandbox quarrel, you’d be at the slinging poo stage.
Amir Khalid
@Samara Morgan:
You are too easily impressed by your hero’s claims. It’s not at all surprising to see Julian Assange talk up Wikileaks’ significance to the Arab Spring. He wants the world to see him as important, doesn’t he? The Daily Mail offers only Assange’s claim that the diplomatic communications leaked to him helped persuade tunisia’s military to turn on their president. The Mail doesn’t report that Assange offered any evidence to support such a big claim, nor does it quote any third-party expert’s assessment that supports it.
I doubt that the Tunisian military would have needed Wikileaks to break the news to them that Ben Ali was corrupt. That kind of corruption leaves traces — dubious government projects, suspicious deals, undeserving beneficiaries, and the like. It is never a secret to anyone in the country who’s paying attention e.g. top military officers.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid: i am too easily impressed by empirical data. In every Arab Spring revolt, if the military sided with the revolution, then the revolution triumphed.
I SAID social media was the chief factor, but every bit helps achieve critical mass.
The Assange hatred is pretty un-self-aware here– i think its because he made America LOOK BAD.
And Assange IS a hero. He already got an award.
i have to come up with a variant of maftoon that applies to muslims bewitched by Amerikkkan culture in particular…
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid: And not just the Daily Mail on Tunsia.
al-jazeera on Israel and Palestine
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid: your problem is that you and the juicers are conservatives– you want desparately to believe American global hegemony can go on forever.
Well, it won’t…and it shouldn’t.
Wikileaks is America’s Witches Mirror– it shows us what we really are.
We are not the “good guys”.
wallah, we arent even the “better guys” any more.
we are the stupid guys.
THE
@Samara Morgan:
I’m expecting Chinese, and later Chinese-Indian, global hegemony. The continuation of US global hegemony is not something I have argued will happen.
I believe the US will remain a major regional power though. It can possibly even retain a useful global influence for the rest of this century, by playing a balancing role between the two Asian superpowers.
Edit: So there will be a big three for a long time to come.
Amir Khalid
In contending that social media — Facebook, Twitter etc., the online tools with which protesters organized themselves — were the “chief factor” in bringing about the Arab Spring, you mistake means for motive. What brought it about was the frustrations of those protesters, and the flashpoint was Bouazizi’s suicide. Remember that those frustrations have been building up since long before Assange was even born.
What al-Jazeera is doing with the Palestine Papers might validate Assange’s model of journalism. But remember that publishing governments’ dirty little secrets is part and parcel of journalism, and has been for centuries. Anyway, that entirely separate story doesn’t in any way strengthen Assange’s claim to be a prime mover in the Arab Spring. In my view, and not mine alone, Assange is trying to take credit for more than he actually did.
Also too, you take journalism prizes too seriously. At best, they are no more indicative of a year’s greatest achievements in journalism than Academy Awards are in movies.
THE
@Samara Morgan:
Also I would argue that you have consistently ignored the critical role played in the “Arab Spring” by the food price crisis.
It has deeply destabilized MENA societies.
brantl
@Samara Morgan: No, what finally got us out of Iraq was that the Iraqis wouldn’t let us stay, with immunity. Then, we bailed. A tacit admission that we couldn’t stay with any surety of not doing something criminal, or not willing to risk doing something criminal, but that’s still what it was.
Samara Morgan
@Amir Khalid:
bulshytt. coverups and looking the other way are SOP.
so is classifying the shit out of any inconvenient truths the governments want to bury.
You and the juicers hate Assange because he showed the world America’s ass.
You would be licking his boots if he did that to china or russia…..or to any islamic state.
brantl
@Steve: I have great sympathy for what he did, as he made clear what we were doing in Iraq, and what we were doing wasn’t noble, or courageous, or bloodless.
Samara Morgan
@brantl: Maliki and Alawi COULDN’T rewrite the SOFA, because the American invader/occupiers became political death poison for any Iraqi political leader.
That is the beauty of democracy.
;)
Samara Morgan
@brantl: and he made clear we were LOSING in A-stan, and that the US is just a big fat global economic and military bully.
but not any more.
/sideways smile
brantl
Samara, you really are slow.