I guess I just don’t understand. If you were a mayor of a large city, and there was some #ows shit going down, just surround it with port-a-potties, a few cops, and some EMT’s, and let the protest fizzle out?
That’s what I would do. It would have to be cheaper than all the brutality cases. And it would make more sense.
“HEY- I SEE A BIG FIRE! LET’S THROW KEROSENE ON IT.”
or
“Wow, let’s dig a firebreak and stop throwing kindling on the fire.”
Maybe I am just too sober.
Omnes Omnibus
In the words of David Byrne and Company, stop making sense.
Cris (without an H)
Whatever happened to free speech zones, where protesters can be shuffled off to be ignored?
cathyx
But this gives them a chance to use all those weapons they’ve been dying to use on large groups. That opportunity doesn’t come along every day.
ericblair
Probably because you’re not an authoritarian control freak. There are a lot of cops (and more importantly, their leadership) who are seriously obsessed with being “in control” of every situation, regardless of whether it would make more sense to just hang back and monitor things. If you are said authoritarian control freak, the OWS camp is Not Controlled and therefore intolerable.
Geysergazers
1,000 of LA’s finest to beat up a couple hundred hippies costing the taxpayers who knows how much $$. The only possible explanation is that TPTB are scared shitless. The Thing is, the establishment really is just pouring Gasoline on a Bonfire. Go #OWS!
MattF
I’d assume the #ows choose sites that inconvenience the powers-that-be. And, yeah, one needs to justify the purchase of those tasers and that pepper spray currently just sitting on the shelf.
Marc
OWS is not free to the cities; like any other large public gathering there are extra costs for (actual) security, not just police state stuff. So even if a mayor is sympathetic they do have tight budgets and they do have a lot of complaints from local businesses. That doesn’t excuse over-reaction. But I suspect that it goes a long way towards explaining why mayors in cities like Oakland, who are hardly reactionaries, have moved to end these after having them stay intact for so long.
Rick Massimo
Sure it would be cheaper, but then you wouldn’t be punching hippies in the face, which is the most important thing that any Real American can ever possibly do.
If you didn’t punch hippies in the face every time they said anything, ever, the hippies might start getting the idea that they’re actually Americans too, and that maybe they’re right. And we cannot possibly let that happen, because – um, because … hold on; let me turn on my TV. Someone – doesn’t matter which channel – will explain it in a few minutes, tops.
FlyingToaster
The problem is that you’re both a grownup and sober.
Anyone who’s been known to vote with their wallet would look at this and say,
* deal with the sanitation
* put a couple of cops from the intelligence unit in their van next to the venue (playing with their iPhones/Blackberries)
* wait for winter
Occupy in Kansas City can’t get arrested.
Occupy Boston has been damn peaceful, despite Mayor Mumbles’ posturing. They’re arguing it out in front of a judge, like adults.
If I were a taxpayer in Oakland or NYC, I’d be LTE’ing about the waste of my tax dollars.
Comrade Javamanphil
@Geysergazers:
And very, very stupid. Let’s never forget that the people in charge thought loaning money to people that couldn’t repay it and then bundling it with other loans would somehow reduce the risk of the investment to 0%. Our Galtian Overlords are really, really, dumb.
Hank
I think Marc has a point, in that while I don’t want to go down the road of putting Constitutional rights up for a vote, you should be aware that mayor’s offices are likely being inundated everyday with calls and letters to take action and remove the tents. And this is in places that aren’t exactly GOP hotbeds.
terraformer
It’s because the authoritarians don’t want us to become France, where people march and protest at most any attempt to limit or restrict social programs or benefits. As it should be. The resulting atmosphere is one where the government appropriately thinks twice, three times before making changes that might bring people to the streets. After all, the French invented this ingenious, gravity-powered device (that they did not use sparingly) when the people believed their rulers weren’t looking out for them.
Here, we’ve inculcated a sense of “letting those in charge, who know best, take care of things” and we generally agree that loud, public protests of any sort are unseemly and are not representative of civilized society. Just watch TV, grab that remote, a bag of chips, and relax.
Comrade Carter
Welcome to Milwaukee, Comrade Cole.
They aren’t doing anything, and the police chief is sending his men back to the streets to worry about the city.
Have a break!
willard
The Occupy protests have proven to be quite effective. The change in the national dialog is striking. We, as a nation, are no longer talking about austerity in the face of recession, a failed remedy proven thrice over. Instead the national conversation has moved back to jobs and a new dialog has started on inequality. The data mining, analysis, and resulting graphs produced by Krugman, et al. show in stark contrast that this problem of inequality has reemerged after a post WWII hiatus with the policies of Reagan administration and accelerated with the failed presidency of W. Even the low information voters in my family are waking up to that.
Ira-NY
Occupying Wall Street was a good tactic.
The regional occupations have been much less so. They have taken energy and resources that could have been put to much better use.
Blue Neponset
There is a reason hippy punching is so popular, a great deal of people in our great country hate hippies. Also, having a bunch of hippies in the park is bad for business. I am not going to go into the big city to spend my money if there is a chance I will get stuck in the middle of a riot and get pepper sprayed. Also too, babysitting a bunch of campers is expensive. A “few cops” isn’t enough to watch over hundreds or thousands of people.
OWS really really really needs to figure out that squatting in the park is not the point of the protest.
Mark B.
They did the same thing to the bonus armies in the 1920s. Honestly, I think the #OWS would go on for quite a while even if the police left them alone, but it would have been much smaller and calmer without the police violence.
PTirebiter
@cathyx: I think that’s definitely part of the equation; we bought a ski boat, the sun’s out and we’re damn well going to ski!
willard
Interesting comment attributed to the police on the OccupyCleveland website: The presence of the occupy camp has reduced crime in Public Square by 90% during the busy holiday season. This reduction combined with the food pantry being run at the encampment and John’s common sense solution could ultimately save cities money.
Donate
ericblair
@Comrade Javamanphil:
Sort of. There are a lot of the 1% whose only intelligent act in their lives was to drop out of the correct uterus and it’s been downhill ever since. The money guys generally aren’t stupid, but tend to be massively aggressive and overconfident. They knew what kind of crap they were putting in their own securities, but actually thought that everyone else was too dumb to do the same thing in their securities. There’s a sucker in most con men.
Barry
@ericblair: “Probably because you’re not an authoritarian control freak. There are a lot of cops (and more importantly, their leadership) who are seriously obsessed with being “in control” of every situation, regardless of whether it would make more sense to just hang back and monitor things. If you are said authoritarian control freak, the OWS camp is Not Controlled and therefore intolerable.”
This, and the next comment.
Power-junkie authoritarians are in it for the power; disrespect is something they hate (more than the rest of us).
In addition, TPTB don’t want the conversation turned to the crimes and abuses they’ve committed; it’s called ‘the 1%’ for a reason.
Barry
@Marc: “…mayors in cities like Oakland, who are hardly reactionaries…”
A brutal assault was done by non-reactionaries? That’s presuming that the mayor of Oakland was unaware of the nature of the OPD.
Omnes Omnibus
@ PTirebiter: Why would you need a boat to ski? Boars are for waterskiing – an entirely different activity.
Barry
@Hank: “I think Marc has a point, in that while I don’t want to go down the road of putting Constitutional rights up for a vote, you should be aware that mayor’s offices are likely being inundated everyday with calls and letters to take action and remove the tents. And this is in places that aren’t exactly GOP hotbeds.”
Form letters (from right-wing websites) and Tea Party cranks, I’ll betcha.
Barry
@Ira-NY: “Occupying Wall Street was a good tactic.
The regional occupations have been much less so. They have taken energy and resources that could have been put to much better use.”
Why should we accept that – not argument, because you aren’t making one.
RSA
I’ve got this ugly propane tank in my back yard. I think I’ll take a hammer to it. And the hornet nests? Stomping vigorously on them is clearly the best course of action.
Barry
@Blue Neponset: “I am not going to go into the big city to spend my money if there is a chance I will get stuck in the middle of a riot and get pepper sprayed.”
The rioting is the police breaking the law, pure and simple.
” Also too, babysitting a bunch of campers is expensive. A “few cops” isn’t enough to watch over hundreds or thousands of people.”
Just how many police do you think are standing on every street corner in NYC? There are thousands of people at peak hours on many blocks, walking all willy-nilly without barricades or nightsticks ‘helping’ them.
Frank the Tank
John….There you go again using logic….shame on you…the “SUUUUPERGENIUSES” running these cites are deciders….doncha know!
Blue Neponset
@Barry:
It doesn’t matter whose fault it is. Any city with a good chance of a riot is going to get fewer visitors and therefore less business. Less business, especially during the holiday shopping season is something a Mayor is going to hear about.
Protestors and commuters are very different groups of people. Comparing the two doesn’t make much sense to me.
balconesfault
@Marc: and they do have a lot of complaints from local businesses.
And probably from old fart Tea Party types who get tired of seeing the news coverage each night and end up bombarding the Mayor’s office with demands that they “do something to keep the peace”.
Eventually that incessant drone from people with too much time on their hands has an impact.
Adolphus
I’ve been thinking the same thing recently. Remember all those civil rights marches in the 50’s and 60’s when the local police stood by and just kept protesters apart from the angry white mobs and nothing happened? No one reported it in the newspapers. No one saw photos of police dogs chewing up children, and no Emmet Till faces to be shown around the world?
Yeah. No one else does either. That’s why Civil Rights leaders stopped going to those towns.
Gin & Tonic
@Omnes Omnibus:
Link to video, please.
numbskull
@Marc: It’s the job of someone like a mayor to weigh costs and benefits of any action. Oakland in particular is may be hit with a shitstorm of civil, and possibly criminal, cases. Contrast with OKC, Atlanta (mainly), Boston (mainly).
numbskull
@Blue Neponset:
????
I don’t think those words mean what you think they mean.
numbskull
@Blue Neponset:
No, I’d say if anyone really, really, really needs to figure something out, it’s you and others who are missing what has happened and continues to happen because of this movement. Have you forgotten that prior to #ows where the emphasis on national discourse was? Deficits and assorted bullshit. Now at least there is discussion in the MSM about some fairly real issues, like wealth inequities.
You may not like how #ows accomplished this, but I don’t see that any other actions, people, or movements changed national discussion in a progressive direction in the past few years other than #ows. It sure as shit wasn’t the establishment politicians or media and it sure as shit wasn’t us, a bunch of weenies typing furiously on our computers.
Gex
@Marc: So, we simply can’t afford to have free speech and free assembly anymore. That’s the saddest casualty for austerity measures yet.
FlipYrWhig
@numbskull:
Is there? I can’t say I’ve heard a lot of discussion of wealth inequity in the media. And the news from the “supercommittee” was all about… deficits and assorted bullshit.
Yutsano
@Gin & Tonic: I thought maybe it was a cheesehead thing.
Bludger
JOHN COLE FOR MAYOR!
Give them their precious Port-O-Potties…
Blue Neponset
@numbskull:
This is why people hate hippies. You can’t tell them anything. Everyone who doesn’t agree with every single thing they do or say is either dumb or ignorant or both.
Thanks for the history lesson numbskull. I appreciate that you took time from your day to educate your inferiors.
Marc
@Gex:
I find it helpful to try and understand other peoples motives. There are real costs associated with OWS. If the movement can adjust to minimize those costs that would remove the more reasonable grounds that people have to react to them. It wouldn’t stop the police state actions, but it would provide moral strength. Is there really a first amendment right to camp indefinitely in public parks, for instance, regardless of the impact on others? It’s the same reason why the civil rights protesters were so incredibly careful to be well-dressed, civil, and nonviolent.
I think that diversity of tactics would be a huge help at this point – demonstrations at corporations, congressional offices, foreclosures, and so on would be both new and on point. Otehrwise the risk is real of simply fading out or getting stuck in a rut.
burnspbesq
@Geysergazers:
Except that nobody got beaten up.
But far be it from me to try and separate you from your long-standing and deep-seated prejudice.
burnspbesq
OK, this is funny (courtesy LA Times):
slippy
@Blue Neponset:
Oh, Christ Himself forfend you might find “business” mildly inconvenienced by the needs of the people.
It’s funny that nobody was pepper spraying the Teabagger assholes a couple of years back when they were supposedly showing public support for their (very vague) agenda. Now that OWS has risen miles above the Teabagger fucksticks to show a true populist movement that is genuinely opposed to authority, the rubber bullets, pepper spray, and fake concerns about “security” start to come out.
I’m so sorry you find democracy inconvenient. Find yourself a nice authoritarian dictatorship — I guarantee you you won’t ever have to deal with filthy protestors in public.
Fucking wanker.
Argive
I live in Philadelphia. Frankly, I was a little sympathetic to Mayor Nutter. The Occupy Philly people were located in an area which did not disrupt local business or cause many issues with traffic while remaining highly visible, and Nutter’s office basically took a “don’t start trouble, and we won’t give you trouble” attitude with them. All that held true until now; there’s a major construction project slated to start right where the Occupiers were that will cost $50 million and provide some much-needed jobs to a city that has sky-high unemployment. So I believe that this is what you might call being stuck between a rock and a hard place as far as the mayor’s office is concerned. My point is that there really couldn’t be a happy ending to this story.
FlipYrWhig
@slippy: Actual businessfolk almost certainly harbor more dread for “hippies in the park” than for middle-aged people with straw hats and Gadsden Flags. What “business” doesn’t care for, mayors hear about, then make their concern. And, yes, they almost certainly care more about untrammeled holiday shopping than they do about The Needs Of The People. Whether or not that’s sound thinking isn’t really the point–or, I take it, Blue Neponset’s–but it definitely helps explain why _these_ crackdowns occur.
Mnemosyne
Is it just me, or do some people seem disappointed that the LAPD and Philadelphia police managed to act professionally and clear the area without the violence that they had in New York, Seattle and Oakland?
Reading the reports in the LA Times, the worst thing I can see that happened to protesters in LA is that the guy with the treehouse refused to come down and they shot beanbags at him. Other than that, the people who didn’t want to be arrested were allowed to leave and the people who were arrested did so without resistance.
theturtlemoves
The #ows protests in my neck of the woods have been pretty peaceful. There have been a couple of arrests when people were blocking access to local branches of national banks, something which I find just kind of annoying rather than “sticking it to the man”. Isn’t like those poor tellers have much say in corporate policy.
But, I’m in Eugene, Oregon, so generally we refer to days when there is somebody out protesting something as “Saturday”. The camp here even has freaking playground equipment for the kids and some kind of central dome structure, I assume for meetings. This ain’t their first rodeo…
Argive
@Mnemosyne:
The idea of the PPD showing moderation and restraint is just mind-blowing to me. This is, after all, the police force which burned down an entire city block and killed 70+ residents in the process. Then you’ve got the race riots, racist hiring practices, brutality charge after brutality charge, and history of corruption. Back in the 70s, this city elected Frank Rizzo (Republican police commissioner responsible for a lot of the racism mentioned above) as mayor TWICE. Rizzo promised that if elected for a second term he would “make Attila the Hun look like a f*ggot.” AND HE GOT A SECOND TERM. If you’ve ever wondered why we haven’t had a Republican mayor in over 30 years, it’s largely because of Frank Rizzo’s legacy. And for some reason they built a statue of the guy in front of the Municipal Services building, which is right across the street from City Hall.
Maybe it’s a new day in the City of Brotherly Love. But I’ve seen way too much municipal corruption while growing up here to get optimistic.
andrewsomething
@FlipYrWhig:
From a while back:
handsmile
@Mnemosyne: (#47)
It must be you, unless you are able to cite examples of “some people seem disappointed that the LAPD…managed to act professionally….” The behavior of Philadelphia security forces towards the Occupy movement during its two-month encampment there has been rather less commendable.
For myself, I am always pleased when massive numbers of security personnel, many of whom are public employees, armed with all manner of crowd-control apparatus and equipment capable of inflicting injury, react in a lawful and restrained manner towards non-violent and passively resisting protesters. Of course, opinions may differ on whether Hazmat suits and bomb-sniffing dogs as were deployed in the LAPD action were a trifle excessive.
Am I surprised? Why, yes.
FlipYrWhig
@andrewsomething: Right, but IMHO it hasn’t lasted. And it seems like the “change the conversation” claim needs that change to be lasting. I mean, the conversation about offshore drilling changed for a while too. Then it went back to normal, to wit, obliviousness and willful ignorance.
Cris (without an H)
Nicely put. Ever seen those bumper stickers that quote Jefferson? “When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” Popular among the Teabaggers. Wonder how many of them understand how well that phrase applies to labor uprisings?
(I think the baggers believe it’s about the right to bear arms. Protip for wingers: the government doesn’t actually fear your guns, at all.)
Scratch
@Argive:
I’m not sure about saying Frank Rizzo is the reason that Philadelphia hasn’t had a Republican mayor in 30 years. Frank Rizzo was a Democrat up until he changed parties in an attempt to get a 3rd term as mayor. I suppose Rizzo might have been a Democrat a lot like the Southern Democrats who ended up switching their party allegiance to the Republicans.
Rizzo’s tenure both as police commissioner and mayor probably contributed greatly to strained relations between the city and African-American communities. No dispute about that.
Cris (without an H)
@Cris (without an H): note to self: liberty/tyranny quote is misattributed
Argive
@Cris (without an H):
I honestly cannot believe how many wingnuts seem to think that the federal government is actually scared of private citizens with guns.
It does not matter how many guns you have. It does not matter how well trained you are with those guns. The US military has never been and will never be in the habit of acting proportionally. Oh, you have a M-1 carbine and a Winchester .270? Your mother must be so proud. The gentlemen outside with a mounted .50 cal machine gun are not impressed.
Jefferson was talking about stuff like OWS. Some people seem to understand that.
ruemara
We’ve pretty much ignored them except for one council member who goes over to discuss things with them regularly. The only issue they are about to have is that they’re messing with the local Farmer’s Market space, which will eventually set up a DFH vs DFH battle. I’m sorry but I’m losing any support for #OWS I ever had. It just seems pointless.
Argive
@Scratch:
Pretty much. This is anecdotal and all, but as far as I can tell most people here identify Rizzo with the Republicans. Which in a way is too bad, because as you point out he wasn’t that for much of his career (something I forgot) and also because we have an entrenched, corrupt Democratic machine here. We could really use a healthy opposition ’round these parts.
Cris (without an H)
Especially when you look at the closest thing to that phrase Jefferson actually did say:
By the way, that Monticello.org site has a whole section of “Spurious quotes” that suggests how eager people (of various political or philosophical stipes) are to put their favorite sayings in Jefferson’s mouth.
Mnemosyne
@Argive:
In 2007, the LAPD decided to break up a May Day immigration protest in MacArthur Park that included a lot of families and kids and among other bad actions started actually beating a reporter who was making a live report from the scene. So, yes, here in LA we’re all surprised and pleased that they managed not to repeat that scene.
@handsmile:
Given comments like Rick Massimo’s at #8 about how people just love to see hippies punched in the face, either people weren’t actually following the news, or they’re making things up.
(I’m discounting Geysergazer’s comment at #5 since on reflection I’m pretty sure it’s just trolling.)
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
I assume that everyone dispensing their wisdom about what OWS needs to do are spending their time at the General Assemblies, or if they disagree with the whole OWS idea they are putting work into organizing in some other way.
Because if those people were doing nothing but bitching on the internet in the same tone they’d use to whine when McDonald’s fails to put enough ketchup packets in their bag, that would be pretty pathetic.
I look forward to hearing about the great activist organizing plans for a better movement than OWS.
ruemara
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Yes. I have. It’s called getting up and voting. It’s called contacting your congressman. It’s called learning about an issue, drafting your own laws. But it required too much work and wasn’t a feel good, communal activity that “sticks it to the man” by squatting in a park. It didn’t make people “feel connect” because other people who agreed with them were smiling at them and they were having teach-ins. So those were much better organizing activist things that have a proven track record. Instead, people are fighting over the right to sit in a park, having lost completely the thread of the conversation because they’re now involved in the optics.
Tone In DC
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Good one.
El Cid
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: It’s about time somebody took some initiative to do something about the horrendous lack of ketchup packets we’ve suffered from McDonalds!
I think it’s great that you’re doing something about it, but I have a number of serious critiques of your current approach based on my views of the highlight reels of the Civil Rights and Voting Rights movement and why LBJ resigned and Mondale lost, so I need you to do a lot better than all of that.