They’re still fighting union busting in Indiana, because, of course, after Mitch Daniels destroyed public sector unions he went after private sector unions. Despite what conservatives tell their union voters in these states, that was always the plan.
The Indiana Statehouse debate over right-to-work legislation has been contentious, prompting union protests and a walkout by Democratic House members over the issue earlier this year. That same spirit was evident Tuesday at the University of Evansville, which hosted a panel discussion on the issue.A standing-room-only crowd of about 200 people attended to listen to the panel, which was made up of two right-to-work supporters and two opponents.
The panelist’s right-to-work proponents were Rep. Sue Ellspermann, R-Ferdinand, and George Raymond, vice president of Human Resources and Labor Relations for the Indiana Chamber of Commerce. Speaking against right-to-work legislation were Rep. Gail Riecken, D-Evansville, and Teamsters Local 215 President Chuck Whobrey.
The audience appeared dominated by right-to-work opponents, who frequently offered cheers, applause or shouts of disagreement in response to the panelists’ remarks.
Mitch Daniels had a free hand to impose the libertarian/conservative wish list that Scott Walker and John Kasich then imitated in Wisconsin and Ohio. Unlike Walker and Kasich, no one stopped Daniels in Indiana. He’s been putting these policies and practices in place since 2005.
Indiana’s unemployment rate is 9%
Now, conservatives in that state want still more concessions from working and middle class people, and, once again, they’re promising jobs in return for an still-lower standard of living. If people in Indiana just give a little bit more to the job creators, this time, it will pay off.
“Right to work is a legitimate strategy to help attract and grow jobs,” said Elspermann, citing data that 25-50 percent of companies making relocation decisions are only willing to relocate to right-to-work states. That means, Elspermann said, that Indiana loses out on potential job creation because some companies won’t consider moving here. Raymond had a similar message, saying that right-to-work legislation promotes economic growth and pushes wages up. “Why right-to-work now? It’s all about jobs,” Raymond said.
Public sector union busting was all about jobs, too, way back in 2005. Mitch Daniels keeps pushing people down that hill, and telling them there’s a pot of gold at the bottom.
Rick Massimo
The entire Republican party is Herman Cain, pressing your head toward their nether regions and saying “You want a job, right?”
Lee
@Rick Massimo: Wins the thread at the first comment.
kay
@Rick Massimo:
Very good :)
At what point do people say: “nooooo, come to think of it, I don’t really want that job”.
You can’t, after all, have my first-born child in exchange for 9 dollars an hour, job creator. No deal.
General Stuck
Indiana has deep roots in the aristocratic mindset that goes back to before the civil war, in which the state was a hotbed of confederate sympathy, and later KKK northern headquarters. I am still amazed the state went for Obama in 2008. I could see NC and VA voting Obama, due to their demographics of NE transfers for white collar jobs in those states. But not Indiana. The wingnuts are making everyone pay for the abomination of going blue in 2008. Forget it Kay, it’s Indiana.
Villago Delenda Est
It’s all about repealing everything from the Renaissance onward with these assholes. Every single fucking time.
kay
@General Stuck:
I hate that Stuck. You can’t abandon people because they live in the “wrong” state. It’s really two states.
A northern (industrial/urban) and a southern (I have no idea what goes on down there) portion.
I don’t get this attitude. It’s like conservatives with “Taxachusetts” or whatever. Which they didn’t even abandon. Instead they gained a Senate seat.
Our feelings are hurt? Is that it?
scav
Finally a place where I can’t shout incoherently as that all-gears-but-no-soul Republican-in-Another-Country Jeremy Clarkson who’s busy on the non-apology bandwagon about union members for a change. That excuse for a man would drive me to public transit if I wasn’t already there.
For those not in the know, guess what he suggested they do to public union members on strike?
Donut
I hope someone then pointed out to the Honorable Representative that the 25-50% figure cited can and should be seen from the opposite side of the coin.
The same numbers also mean that 50-75% of employers are not strongly considering right-to-work states because they have right-to-work policies. Meaning lots of other stuff plays into the mix, no?
Am I wrong about this or amirite?
Just seems like a pretty dumb statistic to cite as it doesn’t really bolster one’s case that well.
JPL
GA is a right to work state and our unemployment rate has consistently been above ten percent. Good Times!
evinfuilt
@Donut:
Actually, I found the whole 25-50% to be such a horrible number, near meaningless. It could be just bull, or it could be 25.1% from their stats and well “25-50” sounds better than 25% on its own.
feebog
I can’t believe that they are still pushing the old lie that Right-to-Work legislation means higher wages. It is demonstratably false, and I would hope any one participating in a “panel discussion” on the issue would have the statistics on hand to dispute the lie.
General Stuck
@kay:
It’s not abandonment when a state exercises it’s free will at the polling booth. And in earlier days, I would agree with you, but we are living in the times of cold civil war. And it’s time to choose up sides. Make the choice available to the state to moderate it’s policy and elected officials, but I won’t spend a minute of my time trying to convince a plurality of haters in any given electorate.
Maybe we could set up a emergency hotline for liberals stranded in Indiana, and nationally provide them the same social safety net as any other state. But Otherwise, the powers that be can pound sand for what I care. You are just a more inclusive person politically than me, and is something I like about you. I am just of a different opinion on such things, at least in these days.
scav
@scav: I think I either lost a help in there or gained a n’t. At least I preemptively announced I’d be incoherent.
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
@kay: Ask Johnny Cougar, he was born in a small town.
kay
@feebog:
It seems like the states that are right to work would be the best argument against right to work.
Just parade those incredibly wealthy places past the audience:
Alabama! Mississippi! Arkansas! Like a beauty pageant.
JPL
@feebog:
The right to work folks cite the facts that help them and ignore the ones that don’t. No.Dakota has a low rate of unemployment and high wages but right to work laws has nothing to do with what’s happening there. Remove the natural resources and see what those wages are.
Donut
@kay:
States like Illinois and Wisconsin have the same kind of geographic split, but I wouldn’t recommend giving up on those. I have lived in both states and grew up in Southern Illinois, as a matter of fact. It’s freakin’ conservative Christian backwoods hillbilly country in most of Downstate IL, but people there also voted in significant numbers for the likes of Paul Simon and Barack Obama, among other liberals.
Northern IN, especially the NW, is in many ways an extension of the Chicago exurbs, and helped Obama carry the state.
Kay is absolutely right – cannot write these places off because people are sometimes ignorant and prone to believing propaganda sometimes.
kay
@Raven (formerly stuckinred):
That’s a myth, though, and you know it because you’re from Illinois. Parts of Indiana are more like Michigan, or Illinois, than they are like Mississippi.
Why oh why can’t we have some nuance :)
strawmanmunny
I’m told from the know it all libertarians on another board(it’s actually a sports board with some politics) that those Southern right to work states IS where all the jobs and money are.
I swear, the right wing people live in a freakin’ bubble.
General Stuck
I have no feelings for the right wing and their apostates to decency, other than defeating them in whatever venue they choose.
Roc
@evinfuilt: Well I’m sure that “25-50%” wasn’t intended to be a factual statement anyway…
kay
@Donut:
Right, I’m mostly kidding, but I do think we’re going to run out of states if our standards get much higher. We’ll be down to Vermont.
Napoleon
@General Stuck:
I second this
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
@kay: What ARE you talking about? Mellencamp is from Seymour Indiana, I have a good pal that played ball with him.
Benjamin Franklin
All of them are important. But Ohio seems, always, to be the linchpin.
General Stuck
Indiana is unique in its favor to the right wing, and is like no other northern or upper midwest state. The rest are well worth the effort and up for grabs. Indiana, not so much, now.
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
Said yea yea yea
Donut
@kay:
Ha. I just hope VT sends Bernie back to the Senate this year. Anyway, there has been a lot of talk about demographics lately and how that will change things. The way it is now is not the way it’ll be in 20 years. Many areas of the country will find whites in the minority before too long, and the GOP is not exactly laying tracks to get brown folks in their camp, are they? The fact that Obama carried IN in 2008 was HUGE. I remember watching the returns come in and just feeling something was really really changing in the country. Now, I’m not saying he will carry IN again in 2012. And I’ve seen talk that AZ is a possible Dem pick up.
Things change and evolve. Can’t write ’em now because demographics are gonna be really different in this country before too long.
AA+ Bonds
Companies that will only move to right-to-work states are mercenary firms that will pack up and leave as soon as they can find cheaper labor elsewhere, usually outside the United States.
My home state of North Carolina has been plagued by these companies, and let’s be honest, NC is not the state Indiana wants to pursue as a model for lowering unemployment.
Liberty60
“Why right-to-work now? It’s all about jobs,” Raymond said.
Jeez, didn’t he get Luntz’s memo? Its CAREERS, not jobs.
kay
I’m sure you’re right Raven, but I was talking about ‘small towns”.
Oh,forget it. Just write off Indiana and we’ll move to Vermont :)
evinfuilt
@Roc:
Ah yes, how could I ever forget the “not intended to be a factual statement.” Thank you
Redshift
Gee, I wonder whether those “data” came from some independent source, or a pro-RTW organization…
TooManyJens
Indiana did go for Barack Obama in 2008, you know. It’s not that hopeless.
Raven (formerly stuckinred)
@kay:
It
was
a
joke
one
of
his
biggest
hits
was
Small Town
Well I was born in a small town
And I can breathe in a small town
Gonna die in a small town
Ah, that’s prob’ly where they’ll bury me
Villago Delenda Est
“Right to Work” is all about the theft of labor.
Always has been, always will be.
It’s no coincidence that “Right to Work” states are closely associated with the old Confederacy.
It’s all about labor theft. These assholes don’t want to pay for the value that human labor creates. Because it cramps their style. It’s not enough for them to receive a good living. They want to live like feudal lords.
It’s neo-feudalism.
General Stuck
@Liberty60:
That list is a litany for those seceding from the covenant of economic justice for the individual, and it is a shorter journey from that mindset to seceding from the union proper, at least in their own minds.
Into an oligarchic two class system. They aren’t even bothering any more, to bullshit us about maintaining a middle class. It is all us V them with a kiss and promise we will take care of your needs so long as you comply – and what is left, is only how many voters they can convince this is the way to go.
AA+ Bonds
I use the term “mercenary firm” to describe any firm that’s less interested in establishing long-term success and more interested in lowering its labor costs year-to-year whether or not its strategy for doing so hurts its own future.
States that bow and scrape to these firms in the legislature get what they deserve: companies that come in for a year or two, soak up tax breaks and incentives like a sponge, and then pick up and move to Thailand.
Woodrowfan
wait until Mike Pence is Indiana’s governor. oye
Schlemizel
Look at where US companies are creating jobs, China, India, the Philippines. That is the model they want to emulate. Once you are willing to work for 40% of what you make now, give up the benefits, stop whining about safety, end government over site and abandon the environment all will be well. Unions just get in the way of the job growth we could have in this country with just these few, simple steps.
Right to work states have been leading the way to this employment utopia for years.
eemom
this seems like an opportune thread on which to comment on how fucking stoopid the name “Hoosiers” is.
I once had the misfortune — through a misbegotten and soon-aborted merger — to become associated with an Indianapolis law firm, and nearly perished from embarrassment every time they called themselves that.
kay
I just think the labor thing is interesting, because it’s going on in places other than Ohio and Wisconsin.
They won a big one in New Hampshire yesterday.
timb
@General Stuck: As a Hoosier, the only thing I can add is that there are a lot of Hispanics and African Americans in Indiana…..plus, we have real wingnuts here. The kind of wingnut Ohio only dreams of having. Our wingnuts stayed home in 2008 because John McCain wasn’t conservative enough.
As a Hoosier, I feel hopeless in trying to stop this thing. All I keep doing is waiting for the demographic shift to finally bring enough young people, Hispanics, and other minorities into the voting booth to win elections
Linnaeus
@Villago Delenda Est:
Yep. I’ve been using this term a lot as of late because, despite its historical imperfections (just ask a medievalist about that, but I won’t go into it), it really nicely encapsulates that vision that our would-be overlords would like: a decay of the independent nation-state as it exists now to be replaced by a set of corporate fiefdoms run by a financial aristocracy (instead of the old feudal military class) working through reeves and bailffs taken from the professional managerial class. The rest of us will be bound serf-like to whomever will take us.
timb
@Donut: we don’t have debates here, donut, only scribes recording what “business leaders” say.
Oh, and we gots Sean hannity and Rush Limbaugh on the radio
General Stuck
@kay:
My guess is, the wingnuts in power in IN, have made their calculations of losing their share of the labor vote in that state, with these kinds of policies, and decided it would either not make a big diff for losing elections, or it is worth the chance. Ohio and WI were obviously a GOP miscalculation, but they seem desperate, with demographics of more minority voters nipping at their electoral heels.
And is why, I think, that they are pulling this extreme nonsense wherever there is at least a chance of dismantling dem labor strongholds and adsorbing the lost labor votes. And therefore demolish the huge organizing power of unions for dem policies and candidates for elected office. They have to do something, and their factions of hatefulness won’t let them reach out to minorities in a genuine way. So they are left with voter suppression and attacking dem institutions.
timb
@AA+ Bonds: Yes, it is, because the goal is not lowering unemployment; it’s about enriching the nobility
timb
@Woodrowfan: I hate you
Rick Massimo
@Schlemizel: Yeah, until people in China, India and The Philippines are willing to work for even a bit less than THAT. Then the process starts all over again.
@Lee & Kay: (Clasps hands over head, heavyweight-champion style)
Origuy
Mellencamp was born in Seymour, but he lives outside of Bloomington. Thanks to Indiana University, B-town is a spot of blue in the purplish-red of southern Indiana. I grew up there. North of Lafayette, the media is dominated by Chicago. The central part, by Indianapolis. I think Indiana could go Democratic again; it’s not Nebraska. A big turnout in Lake County, Indy, and the college towns could overcome the rural vote. Plus, the Hispanic population in Indiana is growing faster than any other.
Capri
I not only live in Indiana, but work with a very rural, very white resentment-y segment of the population on many occasions. I have to agree with other Hoosiers who have posted on this thread that the conservatism of many in Indiana is very deep. Even though there are plenty of fundamentalists around, it’s not a particularly Christian variety. More like the sovereign citizen variety.
Many are pissed at Daniels for how he’s dicking over the schools and public education. Labor and unions not so much.
Chris
@Linnaeus:
I’d want to add to this, but that really encapsulates it. Well done.
DanielX
It’s been called the northernmost southern state, and that’s not far off….if it hadn’t been for O.P.Morton way back when, the place might have ended up as the northernmost state in the Confederacy, or at least with people cutting each other’s throats in every county. But that’s ancient history, as is the fact that the Klan effectively ran the state during the 30s. But there are still a lot of really dumb, mean people here for whom “nigger” is a word in daily use.
Now then, Our (but not MY) Man Mitch, is sort of like Newt Gingrich, a stupid person’s idea of what a smart person sounds like. I have commented previous that Mitch’s record as W’s Budget Director when the economy was headed off a cliff and the deficit was headed to fucking Mars should have automatically disqualified him for any political office in the state (or anywhere else) aside maybe from trash collection in Markleville.
But Mitch – being pretty much a standard issue corporate Republican – has political connections that are of the best, and he had the wit to get out of DC before it became evident what a slow moving train wreck the Bush administration was. Pushing Right To Work (i.e.; putting it to unions whether public or private) is pretty much a standard corporate Republican idea, along with privatizing everything under the sun and some things that aren’t.
This would include such things selling off the Indiana Toll Road to some consortium for a one time fee…with increased tolls as part of the package. Goody, we get to pay more money to drive on a road that we’ve already paid for. Mitch, through a peculiarity in state law, can declare any highway in the state as a tool road, so we’re kind of waiting for that particular shoe to drop as well. Let’s hear it for public-private partnerships! That phrase, in our fair state, is a code word for transferring public dollars to private hands, and Mitch is perfectly okay with that.
But I digress. Screwing the unions for fun and profit is part and parcel of Mitch’s M.O., and a lot of union members (who voted Republican, let it be noted) are just now waking up to the fact. I’d talk to union guys and it would make me want to scream “These guys want to CUT YOUR THROAT. Why are you voting for them?”
But hey, Mitch can’t run again. Barring a miracle, next up at bat is Mike Pence, and folks who think that guy Walker up in Wisconsin is okay are just gonna love them some Mike Pence, you betcha. Corporate Republican and Christian Republican all wrapped in one handsome package – what’s not to like? Unless you happen to be poor, disabled, etc etc etc. Big fun here in 2012!
Chris
@DanielX:
I wish I had faith that this last round of union-busting thuggery on the part of GOP governors (beginning with Christie, still the closest thing to a GOP saint in the current party) would finally wake these voters up, but I can’t say I do. Swing voters have incredibly short attention spans; give us a few election cycle and I fully expect them to go to bat for yet another crop of the same fuckers.
Nora
Can we please stop using the term “Right to Work”? It’s like “Right to Life”, an Orwellian term that makes it sound as if it’s in favor of something everybody could agree with, when really the policy destroys the thing it’s supposed to be supporting. I feel as if every time we use their terms, we’re playing on their court.
eemom
@Nora:
excellent point. I really, really hate “right to life” and “pro-life,” and I hate even more that their usage has become so standardized and is never even remotely questioned.
IOW, as we chanted back in the 2004 March For Women’s Lives:
“Pro-life, that’s a lie, they don’t care if women die.”
Similar with “entitlements.” The list goes on and on, and it is, indeed, Orwellian in purpose and effect.
DanielX
@timb: Amen…Indiana breaks into several, hmm, mindset areas: the big urban centers (South Bend, Fort Wayne, Evansville, etc), Indianapolis, which is the economic, political and geographic center, the decaying industrial towns, the rural/farm areas. And, and, the Region – northwest Indiana (Lake, Porter and La Porte counties), which is not like anywhere else in the state. Hispanics and blacks are usually concentrated in urban areas.
The one thing that all these areas have in common is that there are a lot of really mean, ignorant folks in all of them, including a hell of a lot of serious, SERIOUS wingnuts with lots of firearms. You cannot – cannot – reason with these folks, because they believe, among other things, that Barack Obama is the Antichrist. Literally the fucking devil…a lot of them did stay home in 2008, but now that the Tea Party has rendered serious wingnuttery semi-respectable, they WILL come out in 2012 no matter who the Rethugs nominate. The economic situation isn’t helping, because the official state unemployment rate of 9-some percent is way low and people are getting damned desperate.
General Stuck
@General Stuck:
I need to modify this a tad. I have hardcore wingnut family members that I have feelings for, mostly good, as blood is often thicker than politics, so long as the topic doesn’t come up. I am just crankier than usual with all the cruel shit the GOP is directing toward the poorest among us.
AA+ Bonds
And y’all wonder why I keep pointing out that the issues Murdoch, Ailes, and Co. push through Fox and the WSJ are, surprise surprise, big scary labor issues.
It’s the election, stupid, and they’re not (just) running against the gays this time.
The main Republican strategy in 2012 will be to pretend that America Will Fix Itself if we get rid of workers’ rights, get rid of climate science, do everything possible to put the country back on the Bush trajectory that put us in this mess to begin with.
Democrats need to get out in front. They need to shout “UNION YES”, all the time, ESPECIALLY among independents. Once Democrats work past their 1990s DLC-fueled fears, it will be the most useful position for them to take in an era when Americans long for stability in their careers.
How do I know?
Because attacking labor is the Rove Strategy: ATTACK THEIR STRENGTHS. The Republicans have decided that organized labor is a real threat to oligarchy.
Unions are a point of STRENGTH for the Democrats right now, whether Democrats are willing to admit it or not. Be still and listen to the wind blow around you.
AA+ Bonds
There’s also one more aspect that works in Democrats’ favor here: Republicans have lost most American economists by endorsing stances like default over raising the debt ceiling, or vicious anti-employment austerity during a period of high unemployment.
Usually economists would line up to bitch about unions, mainly because Keynesians haven’t fully adjusted to post-Keyenesian critiques (although that’s happening quite rapidly nowadays).
But this time around? I really doubt big-name economists would feel great about helping hand the country to the Republicans, who have utterly abandoned any economic reasoning in any form.
So Democrats have a shield against the pseudo-scientific critiques of labor that usually come out of bought-and-sold academia.
AA+ Bonds
Finally: Mitt Romney’s entire career at Bain Capital came from buying firms with long-term plans, turning them into unstable mercenary firms, and selling them off before they collapsed.
It’s time to start saying:
Mitt Romney IS Wall Street.
“If Mitt Romney treats your company like all those companies he bought as a Wall Street raider, well then, my friend, you’ll be out on the street with a cardboard box the year he gets elected.”
“Mitt Romney? You know he made a career out of sending American jobs to Asia, right? I don’t know if I trust someone who doesn’t have American interests at heart.”
Sly
The conservative response to persistent unemployment is that the middle-class have it too good, and that they’re not desperate enough to take shittier and shittier jobs in an endless race to the bottom. Liquidate the public sector and toss all those skilled workers into the private labor pool, lowering the private sector wage base while simultaneously lowering the productivity costs of their most ardent political supporters who then pocket the difference. It’s the new sharecropping, same as the old sharecropping.
AA+ Bonds
@General Stuck:
The trick I’ve found is that my conservative friends are human, and they’re as prone to listening or not listening to people around them as anyone else. Even authoritarian personalities in America feel the cultural pull of anti-authoritarian rhetoric.
Work on them and you can wear them down, at least enough to be uncertain about the Republicans and their big names.
What they respect are strong positions, argued forcefully. You shame one super-Republican in front of another, more wishy-washy Republican, with strong rhetoric and inconvenient facts, and the onlooker will begin to question whether he picked the right silverback gorilla to endorse in the troop’s civil war.
AA+ Bonds
@Chris:
Don’t be passive. I guarantee you that you’ll be proven right if your response to their blundering is to sit back and wait for everyone in America to realize they screwed up.
Attack, attack, attack, attack. Swing voters are fickle, yes. They respect displays of power. Match Republicans’ displays with your own.
ken
This is what happens when Democrats don’t think they need to vote in midterm elections,
Southern Beale
Hasn’t helped Tennessee, our unemployment is still around 10%.
karen marie
This was written four months ago, in August 2011:
OzoneR
@General Stuck:
They have nothing to lose because they’re still going to win a significant portion of the white labor vote cause of abortion, gays, guns, immigrants, and whatever other divisive bullshit Fox News digs up to make them afraid of elitist coastal liberals.
Southern Indiana born and raised! Well, I was born in Kentucky, but anyway.
OzoneR
@AA+ Bonds: Who are your conservative friends?
Mine like to tell me I’m just trying to take away their right to free speech.
OzoneR
@kay:
yeah and those parts of Michigan and Illinois aren’t so progressive either.
I hail from Seymour…well, outside of Seymour…a small town. These people voted for Lee Hamilton, Baron Hill, Frank O’Bannon, Evan Bayh
Then the Democrats proceeded to nominate the know-it-all Washington insider (Gore), the hippie (Kerry) and the welfare child (Obama) and almost nominated the limousine liberal (Dean) and the harpy bitch (Hillary)
Sorry, now you’ve lost them. Oh, they agree with you on issues, a least until the n*gg*r in the White House says he supports them, then they don’t agree with you anymore.