Come for the politics, stay for the snark.

Within six months Twitter will be fully self-driving.

Thanks to your bullshit, we are now under siege.

He imagines himself as The Big Bad, Who Is Universally Feared… instead of The Big Jagoff, Who Is Universally Mocked.

Our job is not to persuade republicans but to defeat them.

Stamping your little feets and demanding that they see how important you are? Not working anymore.

I’d like to think you all would remain faithful to me if i ever tried to have some of you killed.

Jesus, Mary, & Joseph how is that election even close?

“Why isn’t this Snickers bar only a nickle?”

Accountability, motherfuckers.

“Everybody’s entitled to be an idiot.”

“What are Republicans afraid of?” Everything.

After roe, women are no longer free.

Come on, media. you have one job. start doing it.

Today’s GOP: why go just far enough when too far is right there?

A thin legal pretext to veneer over their personal religious and political desires

Is it negotiation when the other party actually wants to shoot the hostage?

DeSantis transforms Florida into 1930s Germany with gators and theme parks.

In after Baud. Damn.

“woke” is the new caravan.

Despite his magical powers, I don’t think Trump is thinking this through, to be honest.

It’s the corruption, stupid.

That’s my take and I am available for criticism at this time.

Good lord, these people are nuts.

Do not shrug your shoulders and accept the normalization of untruths.

You are here: Home / We’re all sensitive people with so much to give

We’re all sensitive people with so much to give

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I’ve had a lot of interesting email from readers the last couple days. A reader who is a psychologist wrote in to tell me that I was wrong to say that establishment media’s desire to fuck the middle class over was un-malignant tough love, that it was more likely pure assholery and that I shouldn’t sugarcoat it. I found her arguments pretty convincing.

Another reader wrote in to describe TNC and Sully’s break-up-to-make-up (which I’ve seen people talking about in the comments) as “white man tell black man to stfu”. I’m not sure there is a such a racially loaded angle there, it seems more “Very Serious Person tells second second-tier opinionator to respect his authoritah” (serious question, though: are there are any black Very Serious People and, if not, is their non-existence axiomatic or just empirical).

But there’s not doubt that all this “while I may not 100% agree that I am genetically inferior/we should nuke Iran/the middle-class needs to starve for a while, I still feel that my esteemed colleague is a wise, decent, brilliant person and he makes many wonderful points about why perhaps I am genetically inferior/we should nuke Iran/the middle-class needs to starve for a while” stuff is toxic. It alienates almost everyone, except the tote-bag types who feel privileged to listen to such erudite, civilized discourse, and, more importantly, it will never address the desires of people outside the Atlantic/TNR/PBS bubble.

Establishment media would have us all believe that reasonable people can disagree, that we should all channel our inner Tip O’Neil/Ronald Reagan and vote for Bloomberg/Bayh. That’s just not how things work. The greatest achievement in American politics of the last 50 years was, by any measure, the Civil Rights Act. A war-mongering, womanizing political genius pushed it through, a lot of good people got murdered fighting to get it through, and it created at least 40+ years of southern support for the party that opposed it.

That’s nothing like Gail Collins and David Brooks gushing about each other’s wits or TNC and Sully winning each other’s grudging admiration. People are often assholes and they should treat each accordingly.

Reader Interactions

174Comments

  3. 3.

    Soonergrunt

    The simple fact is that there are quite a few people out there who are kind to children and small animals, who treat the people with whom they personally interact decently, who give money and time to charity, but who support absolutely horrifying political and social positions, and through those do a hell of a lot more damage than they ever do good on that small, local level.
    Such people need to be punched hard. Repeatedly.

  17. 17.

    Roger Moore

    If comity is more important than honesty, you wind up with something that looks like The Village: a place where you can say any dumb ass thing you feel like as long as you say it nicely, but people who point out the Emperor has no clothes are ostracized. Is that really the kind of society we want, or would we prefer one where the opposite is true?

  19. 19.

    Jenny

    being a VSP isn’t about experience or knowledge or even talent. It’s a club and membership is based on subscribing to a narrow set of policy positions.

    So Krugman isn’t considered a serious person even though he’s won a Nobel Prize and Clark Medal and teaches at Princeton. But a hack like Bobo who produces nothing but dribble is a VSP because of his positions.

  20. 20.

    Hugh

    It’s Sullivan’s narcissism combined with his gigantic, toxic blind-spots that makes him so unbelievably repulsive. TNC has always been too nice to him.

  22. 22.

    arguingwithsignposts

    @Jenny: This. Was it Noonan who talked about the Clintons saying “they trashed the place, and it wasn’t their place.”? That was a Very Serious Person.

  24. 24.

    Villago Delenda Est

    @Roger Moore:

    That’s clearly the sort of society the Villagers want, because as you noted, that’s what they’ve created.

    It’s utterly evil in its implications, and they’re too stuffed with cocktail weenies and appletinis to realize it.

  26. 26.

    Kittehs to the rescue

    “is there non-existence” Seriously?

    English is like the third language I learned, and I never mixed up “their / they’re / there”. Yet I see native speakers do this over and over, and increasingly so.

    Do you lot unlearn your own language?

  27. 27.

    Roger Moore

    @Villago Delenda Est:
    Although I guess that it’s only comity within the group that matters. You can be awfully fucking rude to outsiders without the rest of the Village making a peep; it’s only when you say something bad about an insider that the others care.

  29. 29.

    PIGL

    @cathyx: Bloody right. Screw getting along with these oh-so-civilised apologists for oppression. Screw them, screw the people they enable, screw the political parties to whom they give cover.

    And by “screw them” I mean break their social, political and economic power by whatever means are necessary; confiscate their wealth, smash their dynasties, and ensure that not one of them or their children to the seventh generation ever derive any benefit whatsoever from the inquitous advantages they now enjoy.

    Three generations from now, I want these people and their granchildren to be some bitter ethnic remnant, stewing in degradation, obscurity and toothless rage in Port au Prince, as the preRevolutionary Cuban ruling class now stews in Miami.

    And this can all be accomplished by reimposing a just system of taxation, breaking a few media and business monopolies, and disbanding one or two institutions (I mean you, Chanber of Commerce) while sending their principles to a black prison. No need to actually line anyone up against a wall, delighted as I personally would be at the prospect of actual justice being served.

  31. 31.

    piratedan

    @DougJ: sorry, i was basing my VSP status/bestowment based on having a national syndication deal. If we’re talking VSP as an identification of national idiocy, then I would like to withdraw said nomination.

  33. 33.

    handsmile

    Come to think of it, are there ANY people of color who are full-fledged members of the VSP club (punditubbies wing)? Eugene Robinson probably comes the closest.

    Cynthia Tucker and Clarence Page make regular appearances on television and hold prominent newspaper positions but I don’t think they would be afforded all the rights and privileges of full club members.

    And I can’t think of a single Latino/a or Asian-American who holds even minor media status at the national level. Hmmm….

  37. 37.

    Cat Lady

    All of the wanking by pundits black and white is just proxy for the virtual civil war still being fought in this country. Obama is the avatar of the Union victory, and that’s what’s animating punditry now, and all of politics, frankly. It’s war again, but it’s all by inference. Sadly, it is time to drop the gloves now that Newt’s reared his outsized head.

    I’m a proud Obot, and think that Obama’s best quality is his conciliatory nature and completely respect his stable Spock like Buddhist mind, but if I were writing the Hollywood script and Newt’s the nominee, I’d make Obama go all in on his inner Bulworth and dial it up to 11. Everything else has just been prelude to this showdown about what’s what. Let’s get it on.

  38. 38.

    slag

    @Kittehs to the rescue:

    English is like the third language I learned, and I never mixed up “their / they’re / there”. Yet I see native speakers do this over and over, and increasingly so.

    There are a variety of reasons for this, none of which are really worth explaining. You might as well ask why people sometimes stub their toe on the sofa that’s been in the exact same place for the last 15 years. Shit happens.

  39. 39.

    JGabriel

    DougJ @ Top:

    A reader who is a psychologist wrote in to tell me that I was wrong to say that establishment media’s desire to fuck the middle class over was un-malignant tough love, that it was more likely pure assholery …

    Well, this is what I’ve been saying all along, that it’s pure assholery. Still glad to see there’s a shrink who agrees with me though.

    .

  45. 45.

    (another) Josh

    The fact that TNC does the middle-of-the-road comity thing so often, refusing to allow words like “teabagger” (and indeed calling the Tea Party an instance of democracy in action), blaming audiences rather than Murdoch for Fox News, and even banning criticism of fellow Atlanteans does have the effect of making his harsher criticisms stand out. And I think his comments on Sully, even couched in “Andrew is an honorable man” rhetoric, were pretty scathing.

  46. 46.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @handsmile:

    And I can’t think of a single Latino/a or Asian-American who holds even minor media status at the national level. Hmmm….

    Linda Chavez was Quite Serious until her various grifts were exposed, damn near a cabinet secretary, IIRC. Fareed Zakaria is as Serious as they come.

  47. 47.

    slag

    People are often assholes and they should treat each accordingly.

    I realize I’m an asshole for just saying this, but let’s explore, for the moment, the unlikely prospect that there are limits to this theory. In the process of being an asshole, how do you make room for people who are wrong on a subject to back out of their position rather than dig their heels into it?

  48. 48.

    Warren Terra

    serious question, though: are there are any black Very Serious People and, if not, is their non-existence axiomatic or just empirical

    First, what’s the definition of “VSP”? I’d say it’s something like “person possessing extensive tenure within the establishment, such that they are automatically counted credible – and also someone who rarely if ever expresses an opinion that could damage their credibility with the establishment”. I’m not delighted with the definition in the Lexicon.

    Black candidates include Ed Bradley (deceased, dunno how much opinionating he did); Colin Powell (very careful never to take an especially controversial stance, even broke with his long time alter ego Lawrence Wilkerson over the latter’s need to do so); and maybe Bill Cosby (though he maybe shows too little fear of controversy).

    I haven’t seen any others listed here. Bob Herbert is too sincere and too willing to be controversial, and Condoleeza Rice doesn’t actually express any opinions these days but is too personally controversial.

    ETA: I notice (a bit belatedly) a mention of Gwen Eiffel. Haven’t seen all that much of her, but from her performance in the 2008 debate she’d qualify.

  50. 50.

    JGabriel

    DougJ:

    (serious question, though: are there are any black Very Serious People and, if not, is their non-existence axiomatic or just empirical).

    1) No.

    2) Axiomatic — Black people aren’t allowed to become VSP’s because they can’t be neutral arbiters on racial issues, whereas, of course, white people can be neutral arbiters because they’re not racist and how dare you suggest otherwise!

    Seriously. Conservatives believe that shit.

    .

  52. 52.

    Mnemosyne

    To be fair to TNC, he wrote that Sullivan was one of his idols when he was in college and that he became a professional opinion writer because of Sullivan, so it seems to be more a case of someone trying to process the fact that their role model has blind spots the size of Alaska than some kind of abstract “comity.”

    Sullivan was still an ass about the whole thing, though.

  53. 53.

    arguingwithsignposts

    @DougJ: I think we need to see your list of VSPs, because Easterbrook doesn’t make it on mine, imho. he wrote for a sports site, FFS.

  54. 54.

    CT Voter

    @(another) Josh:

    And I think his comments on Sully, even couched in “Andrew is an honorable man” rhetoric, were pretty scathing.

    Yes, they were. Which is why Sullivan wrote yet another post defending his position, rather than a breezy link in the Daily Wrap up.

  55. 55.

    slag

    @Mnemosyne:

    To be fair to TNC, he wrote that Sullivan was one of his idols when he was in college

    Exactly! Bad influences. That’s what’s wrong with kids these days.

  56. 56.

    CT Voter

    @Cat Lady: If Gingrich is the candidate, Obama’s not going to need to dial it up to 11 (I say now, hopefully). The contrast will be too great. No amount of media fluffing of Gingrich will save him from the “I am the nominee” hubris that emanates from his pores.

    I say so now. Hopefully.

  58. 58.

    Odie Hugh Manatee

    “People are often assholes and they should treat each accordingly.”

    Which explains the popularity of Balloon Juice. ‘Assholes and elbows’ takes on a whole new meaning here.

  59. 59.

    arguingwithsignposts

    @Odie Hugh Manatee: the popularity of balloon juice is explained by the fact that we can be assholes about people who deserve it. We have no VSP credentials to defend.

  60. 60.

    The Moar You Know

    My abnormal psych teacher taught me the only important thing I learned from psychology. I will quote directly:

    “There is no diagnosis for asshole”

    Takes all the guesswork out of things, really.

  61. 61.

    handsmile

    A baseline measure of being awarded VSP status is that people know how to spell your name. It’s Gwen Ifill. Eiffel is a tower. A Very Serious Landmark.

  62. 62.

    Samara Morgan

    @(another) Josh: TNC banned me for ripping on his homie Ross Douthat.
    Those guys ALL belong to the VSP Guild.
    Atlanticans are like Republicans– they all follow Reagans Rule.

  66. 66.

    Mike Furlan

    @Samara Morgan:
    I wasn’t banned, but a comment of mine was deleted. I was pointing out that Sullivan still touting the Bell Curve is like someone wanting to have a serious discussion about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, 15 year after being told that it was a fraud.

    Looks to me like his trademark issue is white supremacy. Should anyone have cause to mention him say 100 years from now, his promotion of the Bell Curve will be what he is remembered for.

  67. 67.

    Samara Morgan

    @arguingwithsignposts: he told me that.
    i can reprint the email but Cole wont allow it.
    /shrug

    TNC and Douthat are FRIENDS like TNC and Sully are FRIENDS like Sully and Douthat are FRIENDS.
    one big circle jerk of intellectual wankery.

    but TNC can write….his prose is sumptuous, gorgeous, evocative. i cant wait to read the novel.

  68. 68.

    wilfred

    Johnson famously said: “In order to have the Great Society, I had to give them Vietnam”. This is the dialectic of American politics. The only way to guarantee social advances at home is through militarism and adventurism overseas. Mutatis mutandis.
    Just the other day, for example, Feinstein pushed through a ‘compromise’ in the Senate. I won’t describe it since politically informed people know what it is. Yet she is a solid vote on social issues that appeal to Democrats, just as she was solid on the AUMF, the Iraq war and subsequent funding. It’s the politics of dilemma – “In order to have the social programs I like, I have to shut my eyes to many things”. The ideal Left candidate is a progressive internationalist as much as he/she is progressive at home. There are people like this, but they are not ‘serious’, are they?

    LBJ would have absolutely loved Joe Lieberman – he had plenty like him. Tolerating the politics embodied in people like him, Feinsten et al. and all the underlying ‘politics’ of the Great Society/Vietnam dialectic is what has created the division between party Democrats and the Left.

    The mainstream media, and most of what ridiculously considers itself to be alternative, promotes the same way of thinking. The specifics may vary but the product is the same.

  69. 69.

    SiubhanDuinne

    True story (I think) from back in the late 1940s: Some pundit of the day had said that President Truman “didn’t know his ass from his elbow” which was shockingly frank 60-odd years ago.

    Soon thereafter, HST held a press conference, during which he was seen to be scratching his elbow. “Why’s he doing that?” whispered one reporter to another. “He has hemorrhoids,” replied his colleague without missing a beat.

    *****

    Well, it was really funny when my mom related it to me when I was about 12.

  71. 71.

    Samara Morgan

    @Mike Furlan: Sully uses appeal to authority, “genetics expert” Razib Khan (disclosure: i was once a GNXP co-blogger).

    The problem here is the word “race.” It has a whole lot of baggage. So many biologists prudently shift to “population” or “ethnic group.” I don’t much care either way. Let’s just put the semantic sugar to the side. I contend that:
    __
    1) Human populations can be easily separated into plausible clusters using a random set of genetic markers
    __
    2) The differences between human populations are not trivial

    Yet while Razib welcomes the idea of between group racial differences in IQ (like Sully), he is very resistant to the idea of differences between human populations of conservatives and liberals.
    Does heritability of political orientation matter?
    Razib is exactly the same as the people asking if IQ matters.
    It all just depends on whose ox is currently being gored.

  72. 72.

    Corey

    Agreed that TNC is much more Serious than Gregg Easterbrook. (TNC is pretty clearly getting the next NYT columnist slot, for instance).

    Other black VSP – Gwen Ifill, Colin Powell, Harold Ford, Condi? (although she’s maybe too toxic), Clarence Thomas, Thomas Sowell.

  73. 73.

    srv

    So basically, rather than read the comments, y’all spend your time reading emails?

    That is so 9/10.

    That said, you really are branching out from the old Capt. Obvious days and starting to find your own groove. Kudos.

  76. 76.

    schrodinger's cat

    TNC is a great writer, but his comments sections is to goody goody for me. It is his site and he can do what he wants, but it feels too much like grade school. Of course on Balloon Juice we don’t place such a high onus on civility, except may be burnsie. He is like the Balloon Juice hall monitor.

    I think to be VSP you have to
    i) have a column in either NYT or WashPost
    or ii) a show on PBS or network TV Sunday morning gig
    (as a guest or host)

    A British accent certainly helps burnish VSP credentials

    so by that token VSPs would be
    Bobo, MoU, Charlie Rose and so on

    Minority VSPs Fareed Zakaria and Christian Amanpour

  77. 77.

    Corey

    @DougJ: MattY isn’t (and, I don’t think, will ever be) a VSP if only for the fact that he just obviously doesn’t care about his craft. VSP’s are pretty pernicious but they generally can write competently, and don’t hit “post” before they actually finish what they’re writing (Matt did this today).

    In any case, I don’t think the old VSP model really captures the new future generation of VSPs, who basically can be characterized by nerdy insecurity, contrarianism, incestuous, overlapping social networks, and the smug assuredness of people who are smart enough to understand just about anything, but not smart enough to know what it is they don’t know.

  78. 78.

    Corey

    Think I got put in spam filter for “inc3stuous”:

    @DougJ: MattY isn’t (and, I don’t think, will ever be) a VSP if only for the fact that he just obviously doesn’t care about his craft. VSP’s are pretty pernicious but they generally can write competently, and don’t hit “post” before they actually finish what they’re writing (Matt did this today).

    In any case, I don’t think the old VSP model really captures the new future generation of VSPs, who basically can be characterized by nerdy insecurity, contrarianism, inc3stuous, overlapping social networks, and the smug assuredness of people who are smart enough to understand just about anything, but not smart enough to know what it is they don’t know.

  80. 80.

    Corey

    @arguingwithsignposts: See, I guess I just take a broader view of who’s a VSP. If you could imagine a political person (journalist, elected politician, judge, whoever) saying something crazy, and then someone else defending that by saying “Oh, but ______________ is a very serious man/woman”, that’s a VSP.

  81. 81.

    Mike Furlan

    @Samara Morgan:
    Anyone who makes a good faith effort to try to understand “Race” heritability, “IQ” etc. will quickly come to the conclusion that white supremacist grifters have no idea what they are talking about. The snippet you posted from Mr. Khan is a perfect example.

    In no way does it make his case that “Black People are Stupid”. And, “No not me, dark skinned Razib Khan, those other Black People.”

  82. 82.

    srv

    @Corey: Whenever I think of the VSP’s, I think of the orgy scene in Eyes Wide Shut.

    It’s like they’re there, but they were outraged until it was edited to be R-rated.

  86. 86.

    arguingwithsignposts

    @Corey: Yeah, i see what you’re saying, which is why I think DougJ needs a list, or an operational definition.

  87. 87.

    Omnes Omnibus

    Yippee, toko is going on about IQ and race as well as differentiating between “blacks” and “browns.” I think this thread has been ruined.

  92. 92.

    benjoya

    while I may not 100% agree that I am genetically inferior/we should nuke Iran/the middle-class needs to starve for a while, I still feel that my esteemed colleague is a wise, decent, brilliant person and he makes many wonderful points about why perhaps I am genetically inferior/we should nuke Iran/the middle-class needs to starve for a while”

    is there someone in this discussion who is in favor of attacking iran?

  96. 96.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Samara Morgan: Weird thing is, I don’t need to prove to you why I believe you have issues with race. Do you prefer the term bigot? We could use that to accommodate you.

  98. 98.

    Ruckus

    @The Moar You Know:
    “There is no diagnosis for asshole”

    True that. “He’s an asshole” is a description, not an explanation. It allows no forgiveness for the deeds and ideas that earned it. And that’s as it should be.

  101. 101.

    handsmile

    Returning to read through the comments, I see that not a single Latino/a or Asian-American has been nominated as a member of the VSP club. Linda Chavez, suggested by Jim, Foolish Literalist (#46), enjoys what little public prominence she now has only in Wingnut World. (Zakaria is Hindi-American, Amanpour is Iranian-Anglo, so I suppose it could be claimed that there is Central Asian representation among the VSP.)

    One might have imagined that the “liberal media” one hears so much about would have addressed this glaring racial disparity by now.

    While noting Corey’s contention above (#80), I believe that for the purposes of this thread “Very Serious Person” implied employment by American print. broadcast or online media. A broader definition would yield more candidates of course, but that very need damns the Village for its current caste system.

  104. 104.

    Jewish Steel

    Yeah, who’s the VSPest frontpager? And commenter?

    And who thinks they’re the VSPest?

    I’d nominate Tom Levenson, not that he’s a supercilious asshole, but that he seems seriously erudite and I’d think twice about taking him on in a match of quien es mas inteligente.

    He inspires a VSP response in me, is what I’m saying.

    I don’t know which commenter is VSPest.

  107. 107.

    Jewish Steel

    @Omnes Omnibus: Plus some legal expertise, right? You can lay down some serious commenting.

    I’m a classically trained musician. That’s pretty serious but I think EF Goldman is more trained than I am. Oh, and classical guitarists are totally the Krugmans of the classical world. We don’t get taken very seriously.

    And I know a smattering of rhetoric and philosophy from hobnobbing with some prof pals, but that’s about it. NVS.

  109. 109.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Jewish Steel: I’ve ten years of violin and viola training as well if that helps. I’ve also run cross-country and track, played rugby, and fenced. My knowledge of Elvis Costello, the Clash, and their contemporaries is up to standard, and I am good on military, literary, and political history. God damn it, I am the Mitt Romney of serious people on this blog…. Why don’t you love me? Why?

  110. 110.

    handsmile

    @Corey: (#103)

    Ah, Michelle Rhee! After the DC schools testing scandal, I had thought she and her school “reform” non-profit group had been reduced to shilling for GOP efforts to eliminate teachers unions. (IIRC, she worked with Wisconsin’s Scott Walker on that issue.)

    Of course, such an initiative would only burnish her credentials as a VSP (if we are expanding that definition beyond the media).

    By the way, would you happen to be the Corey who is a professor at Brooklyn College? If so, I’ve been enjoying your recent Al-Jazeera articles and look forward to debating “The Reactionary Mind” when the Balloon Juice Reading Circle and Hunting Club next convenes.

    Of course, my humble apologies if you are some other estimable Corey.

  111. 111.

    Jewish Steel

    @Jewish Steel: But expertise isn’t really the thing that gives you the bona fides to be a VSP. I think I lost sight of that. Is it like porn? You know it when you see it?

    Oh, and I’m talking to myself on this thread. Def not Serious.

  112. 112.

    Jewish Steel

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Mitt Romney of serious people on this blog

    Going to need to measure those shoulders.

    And I’ll bet you could poll above the mid 20s if I gave you 5 fucking years to to it. So, no.

  114. 114.

    handsmile

    @Omnes Omnibus: (#109)

    I am the Mitt Romney of serious people on this blog

    Well, if this means that you are consistently the favorite of between 20-25% of the commenters on this blog, that should be some comfort. Or perhaps it suggests that you are a chronic flip-flopper on issues relating to “Elvis Costello, the Clash…military, literary and political history.” Or should certain questions be asked about where your dog rides on car trips?

    Fencing? Really? Seriously cool.

  115. 115.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @handsmile: On dogs in or on cars, I do come down on the in side of the question. As to the other issues, I prefer to take the more positive view. With fencing, I got so I was decent.

  117. 117.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Jewish Steel: I have the album on vinyl. The Eddie Cochran covers completely blow away any idea of 1976 as Year Zero. The covers are both respectful and new.

  118. 118.

    Amir Khalid

    @Kittehs to the rescue:
    Them’s native-speaker bad habits. Every language has them. Those who learn a language mostly, or only, in a formal setting, rather than through constant exposure from very early in life, miss out on these things.

  121. 121.

    Samara Morgan

    @Omnes Omnibus: i dont have any issues with race. i dont give a shit what color you are.
    i am bigotted on some things– i despise missionariism and religious proselytizers.
    i am sexist on some things. im an elitist intellectual snob.
    its interesting that you perceive those traits as markers for racism.
    @Amir Khalid: that is generational im afraid. if i had called you “boy” that might be racist.
    i call everyone boi. sometimes my horse.
    ;)

  123. 123.

    Samara Morgan

    @Omnes Omnibus: i think….racism is a ginormous taboo on this blog…..look at all the stealth racist commentary ABL draws. So from EDK to Omnes to suzanne you all try to tar my arguments as racist when you disagree with me.
    Racism is a Great Evil. But you dont have any good arguments against loathing missionaries. Afterall, humans can choose to proselytize…they cant choose their race.

    Know what i really think Omnes? I believe in the Halle Berry model. We should all have sex with each other until we are all the same color.
    And that is gunna happen anyways.
    ;)

  124. 124.

    Samara Morgan

    @Amir Khalid: boi is a sexist term. boy is a racist term.
    got it?

    Can you keep up?
    Baby boi, make me lose my breath
    Bring the noise, make me lose my breath
    Hit me Hard, make me lose my (Hah Hah)
    You don’t have no business in this here’s your papers
    Baby you are dismissed, dismissed, dismissed, dismissed, dismissed, dismissed, dismissed

  126. 126.

    Samara Morgan

    @THE: we just had this discourse.
    you are being disengenuous.
    I FUCKING SAID RELIGIOUS PROSELYTIZING.

    “Beware of confining yourself to a particular belief and denying all else, for much good would elude you—indeed, the knowledge of reality would elude you. Be in yourself a matter for all forms of belief, for God is too vast and tremendous to be restricted to one belief rather than another.”

  127. 127.

    THE

    But I’m talking about religious proselytizing.
    What if some Christian group sets up in a country that respects free speech, and starts invading Muslim chatgroups, worldwide, with invitations to hear the Good News.
    Tries to engage in discussions?

  128. 128.

    THE

    Don’t you see that the Internet is the future of Christian evangelization? Precisely because it allows you to bypass legal restrictions.

    OK so you have an underground group that includes hackers on the team, to get through firewalls, and you have a team that is full of Arabic speakers and Farsi speakers and Urdu speakers. They are willing, if necessary, to engage in encrypted discussions with interested individuals.

    But why shouldn’t a bunch of Christians decide that it is their calling and their mission, to preach the Good News to all the potential converts in the Muslim world?

  129. 129.

    Samara Morgan

    @THE: i already told you.
    Islam is an invadable CSS.
    btw, those groups already exist.
    But muslims are immunized against proselytization.
    If 10 years of occupation and trillions of dollars couldnt convert any muslims, why would chat rooms do the trick?

  131. 131.

    THE

    But they can’t be uninvadable. They might be legally uninvadable.

    But individuals will always exist in any culture that are open to new ideas. People are curious by nature. It’s the non-conformist individuals you try to reach first.

    Also the more something is forbidden, the more it attracts. There is a perversity in the human mind.

    I really think if my government tried to prevent me finding out about some idea or philosophy, I would make it my business to find out what it was.

  132. 132.

    THE

    xians dont have the mad tech skillz to do what you are proposing.

    But Fundamentalist Christians tithe. So their churches are wealthy. And they can hire the skills they need.

  134. 134.

    THE

    @Samara Morgan:
    Besides. How do you know they’re uninvadable?
    When have Christians ever had unlimited, unrestricted, peaceful access to Muslims before?
    Until the Internet spread its Webby tentacles everywhere?

    This is really an empirical question:
    No-one could possibly know the answer in advance.

    ¯_(ツ)_/¯

    Maybe the Holy Spirit will make it possible? The Ghost in the Web.

    The Net is Vast and Infinite.

  135. 135.

    Samara Morgan

    @THE: you didnt read the link, she says reproachfully.
    The reason xians have never had access to proselytize is that the Quran forbids it.
    no one can be a muslim and believe in the jesus godhead…because of surah iklas.
    no even all xians believe in the jesus godhead– its irrational.
    no appeal.

  136. 136.

    Samara Morgan

    @THE: less break it down.
    1. EGT. Islam models as an uninvadable CSS in evolution and the theory of games. See Maynard-Smith.
    2. Dr. Atrans cost of belief– belief in the jesus godhead is very expensive– most xians dont believe in it i would guess.
    3. Religious belief embedds most effectively between the ages of 7 and 14. How do proselytizers get access to muslim kids?
    4. the Quran forbids proselytizing the poor and ignorant. Interfaith discussion between peers is welcome.
    and 5. xianity targets the poor and ignorant– do the poor and ignorant have internet access?

    Muhammed was all about interfaith discussion– between peers.

    125 Invite them to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for your Lord knows best, who have strayed from his path, and who receive guidance.
    126 And if you punish them, punish them no worse than they afflicted you: but if you show patience, that is the best for those who are patient.
    127 And be patient, for your patience is but from Allah; nor grieve over them: and distress not yourself because of their plots.
    128 For Allah is with those who restrain themselves, and those who do good.

  141. 141.

    Samara Morgan

    @Omnes Omnibus: so? i have friends that are nominally xian and they dont “really” believe in the virgin birth. its improbable.
    and requires suspension of belief in reality.

  142. 142.

    Samara Morgan

    @THE:

    But individuals will always exist in any culture that are open to new ideas. People are curious by nature. It’s the non-conformist individuals you try to reach first.

    that would be a mutant strategy.

    A CSS is a culturally stable strategy that if adopted by a population of players, cannot be invaded by any mutant strategy

    uninvadable.

  143. 143.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Samara Morgan: In my view, any religion that posits a supernatural being requires suspension of disbelief. You did not refer to nominal Christians. You referred to Christians and suggested that the majority of them do not believe in the fundamental tenets of their religion. This is a rather arrogant statement based on very little knowledge.

  144. 144.

    Samara Morgan

    @Omnes Omnibus: sure, but costs are relative. What Dr. Atran says is that (for example)…. “virgin birth” requires a greater suspension then divine authorship through human intermediaries.
    the jesus godhead is a more expensive belief, relying on virgin birth, resurrection, and transformation into the divine.
    The Quran specifically prevents against the divine transmutation with surah iklas– He begetth not, nor is he begotten.
    And that is why Muhammed specified “no representation”. He didnt wish to become a god.
    i advanced a hypothesis– based on anectdotal sampling. i havent seen any studies. Have you?
    religion, like IQ and race, is a socially contentious domain.

  145. 145.

    THE

    @Samara Morgan:
    I’ve been away from the computer for a few hours. I’m not sure if you really want me to try and fisk every comment or if a general approach is the best.

    In a sense I see the validity of most of the points you make and yet, we are still talking about the two religions that have exhibited the greatest spreading power throughout history. So all of your stuff about the problems of Christianity are selective, and ignore all the things about it that make it so successful.

    What I do see is that the Internet empowers Christianity, which relies on preaching to strangers and reaching out. Meanwhile it breaks through one of the most important barriers that Islam erects, namely the legal one.

    So I infer that it could well shift the historical balance of power in favor of Christianity.

  146. 146.

    THE

    I’ll try fisking a few more obvious points:

    4. the Quran forbids proselytizing the poor and ignorant. Interfaith discussion between peers is welcome.and 5. xianity targets the poor and ignorant—do the poor and ignorant have internet access?

    Yes. Increasingly. The cost of basic Internet is going down worldwide constantly. Ease of access is increasing through public internet cafes, smartphones etc. The number of global players is constantly rising.

    3. Religious belief embedds most effectively between the ages of 7 and 14. How do proselytizers get access to muslim kids?

    Even kids now have smartphones. The evidence is that people acquire their basic religiosity between 7-14, but they then start to question it between then and early 20s. That is when they most often switch or abandon “inherited” religious traditions.

    no one can be a muslim and believe in the jesus godhead…because of surah iklas.

    You have to posit a substratum of people who, for whatever reason, are dissatisfied with the received tradition. Even if they don’t know it consciously, a part of them is searching for something more satisfying, in some way, that perhaps another religion addresses. You can tell me this doesn’t exist in your religion, and I will tell you that is an empirical question.

    Dr. Atran makes the point that stuff like the virgin birth and the jesus godhead are expensive beliefs to maintain, in that they require massive suspension of reality and the laws of the physical world.

    There is a certain substratum of the world that is looking for magic. You of all people should know that. They are fascinated by the uncanny and the strange. In other words what you say is true for some people, not for others. For some people the logical, legalistic, rational religions bore them shitless. In their deepest souls, they want to be out in the fields at night, worshiping the Goddess, skyclad.

  147. 147.

    Samara Morgan

    @THE: but you are ignoring the evolutionary paradigm. Islam is the most evolved version of monotheism.
    evolution doesnt flow backwards, and we cant revisit the past because of closed form timecurves.
    in a world where matter changes under observation magic is everywhere.
    and…..any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
    Liek Bush you persist in thinking that muslims would welcome xianity….that can never happen because al-Islam is the evolved form.

    bi la kayfah (it is understood)

  149. 149.

    THE

    @Samara Morgan:

    but you are ignoring the evolutionary paradigm. Islam is the most evolved version of monotheism.

    No. I say you are the one who is ignoring evolution. There is nothing “evolved” about monotheism.

    It’s not CSS stability you need to worry about. I think you are totally ignoring the factor that has most contributed to the rise of Islam AND Christendom. Namely their historical monopoly of Greek rationality.

    1. I believe Islam was an early beneficiary of rationality and it was this early adoption of it that facilitated the rise of Islam in its Golden Age of imperialistic expansion.

    2. I believe that when Islam reduced its interest in rationality, and became more legalistic, the Greek rational tradition was then embraced by Christendom, partly by relearning it from the Muslims. This Western “Age of Enlightenment” then caused the Christian Golden Age of imperialistic expansion.

    3. I believe the most notable development of the last 200 years is that the Great Civilizations of the East, namely China and India and Japan, have now grasped the essential power of rationality, sufficiently to trigger their own Scientific-Industrial revolutions.

    4. Meanwhile Islam in particular, is not doing well in coping with modernity. It is seriously lagging the best of both Christendom and Buddhism. In the last decade, Hinduism too is starting to pull ahead. If it wasn’t for petrodollars, Islam would quite possibly be doing even worse.

    5. It’s not really Christendom you have to worry about. IMHO, It is India and China that are probably going to kick both your asses. JMHO, YMMV

  150. 150.

    Samara Morgan

    @Corner Stone: hei CS. ware yah bin?
    sockpuppetting?
    Spock keeps trying to find a way for xianity to exploit its “killer app”….but white evangelical christianity is past its sell-by date.
    Liek Murrican excepshunalism.

    The religions that will spread via the Web are universalist– liek buddhism and islam.

  151. 151.

    Samara Morgan

    @THE: dude, idc.
    everyone is what they have the substrate to be.
    all paths are one path, and its not a competition.
    im jus’ sayin’ al-Islam is EVOLVED to be immune to xian proselytizing.

    man cannot acquire what he cannot use.

    @Corner Stone: have you read children of the sky yet? i heart vinge.
    if you think about it, xianity is like the Blight, and al-Islam is Countermeasure.

  153. 153.

    THE

    all paths are one path, and its not a competition.

    If you are stupid enough to believe that, then no-one can help you.
    Who believes that false-equivalence crap, except losers?

  154. 154.

    THE

    In the end I suppose it’s why mysticism is a false belief system.
    It just denies the ultimate reality of natural reality.

    What can I say except Darwinism proves you wrong.
    Winners survive, losers become extinct.
    If you say that both outcomes are actually the same, then your “system” is really just another form of nihilism.

    You are entitled to make that choice. Of course.
    But I choose not to.

  155. 155.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @THE: Science has yet to explain everything. Everyday, it explains more, but until it explains everything, people will reach for something to explain the world. Magic, mysticism, etc., are all part of that process. Won’t we be chagrined, if, in the end, a deity is proven to exist?

  156. 156.

    Yutsano

    @THE:

    IMHO, It is India and China that are probably going to kick both your asses.

    This has already happened. The Mongols sacked Baghdad in the 13th Century. Islam never truly recovered from that.

  158. 158.

    Yutsano

    @Omnes Omnibus: Cairo was already developed as a center of learning by that time as well. But Baghdad was the capital of the caliphate and was by definition the center of the Islamic world. After the Mongols devastated Baghdad, the caliphate sort of drifted and went insular. Really Toledo and Islamic Spain were more or less on their own, as attested to their relatively open atmosphere and cosmopolitan attitude. In that environment, learning is bound to flourish. Averroes did a lot of his work around that time, setting up the Renaissance. It’s a fascinating historical pattern, how much we owe to both the Muslims and the Mongols.

  159. 159.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Yutsano: I fully acknowledge the debt owed to Islamic scholars. Without them, no Renaissance. I just think that the period you mentioned, after the political decline of the Caliphate, was an amazing time of intellectual ferment.

  161. 161.

    Yutsano

    @Omnes Omnibus: I guess the point is it developed in spite of the decline of the caliphate. That decline allowed the Ottomans to eventually take over, reorganize, sack Constantinople, and pick up the pieces more or less. Islamic Spain was more or less doing its own thing during all of that. In other words, the Muslim empire really…wasn’t so much by that point.

  162. 162.

    THE

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Won’t we be chagrined, if, in the end, a deity is proven to exist?

    Well, if it turns out to be an Abrahamic type of deity, then I will be the one who choses death. I don’t want to live in that kind of universe. Sorry.

  163. 163.

    Samara Morgan

    @Corner Stone: so sowwy CS. :)
    but dont you want to know WHY all this is important?
    Why didnt the japan/germany model of turning our defeated enemies into democratic free market trading partners work in Iraq, and why is it failing in Afghanistan?
    Because Islam is an EGT uninvadable strategy.
    Because when muslims are DEMOCRATICALLY empowered to vote they vote for MOAR Islam, not less, and never for missionary democracy.
    Look at Egypt, Tunisia, and Morrocco.
    Bush’s War on Terror Islam beggered the US and destroyed our global reputation FOR NOTHING.

    and itolejaso itolejaso itolejaso

  164. 164.

    Samara Morgan

    @THE:

    What can I say except Darwinism proves you wrong.
    Winners survive, losers become extinct.

    But it is darwinism and evo theory of games that has proven me correct. The attempt to push western culture on an uninvadable CSS has basically destroyed the US. al-Islam was the reef that America foundered on. 10 years, 14.3 trillion dollars, thousands of dead soljahs, hundreds of thousands of dead muslims…..how do we climb out of that pit?
    Can America recover?
    Who can say?
    We may become a fascist state, or embrace our diminished role and blossom in the shadow of China and India.

  165. 165.

    THE

    Because Islam is an EGT uninvadable strategy.

    But don’t you see that if that’s true then it’s a total disaster for MENA?

    What happens in an age when all the new ideas are foreign. Japan became the first non-Western industrial nation, precisely because of her essential openness, and willingness to import, and learn from, foreign ideas.

    What you are describing is a kind of rabid chauvinism.

  166. 166.

    THE

    @Samara Morgan:
    Yes of course you will recover. First of all, because you chose to fight inside their country not yours, the damage to the other side is far greater than the damage to you.

    Secondly because you are the invader, you can withdraw at any time it becomes too painful for you. Then you rest and recuperate, and in a decade or two you could go back and start killing all over again and who could stop you?

    By then you will have even smarter robots.

    Note:
    I am not saying that you should do it.
    I am not saying that Islam is now, or will be then, the right enemy.
    What I am saying is that no-one could stop you.

    Wars between major civilizations take centuries to unfold.
    Do you really think one decade of war can settle it for all time?
    No, it will take centuries.

    But my point is: Islam is not the right enemy.
    It won’t be the right enemy in 20 years time either.

  167. 167.

    Samara Morgan

    @THE:

    Islam is not the right enemy.

    lol, my point also. Because we cant win.
    Because al-Islam is an uninvadable darwinian EGT strategy.
    The more fiercely the US proselytized missionary democracy, (building an online banking system for Afghanistan? WTF?) the more fiercely islamic culture pushed back.
    and sure the US could have “won” like we “won” at Nagasaki and Hiroshima– except the rest of the world is watching.
    And the more proportionate the resistance. That is why the talibs can field suicide commandos– its a response to invasion/occupation, and its quranic.
    In the battle for hearts and minds America got its ass handed to it.
    We LOST….just like we LOST in Viet Nam.
    But we arent coming back from this one.

  168. 168.

    Samara Morgan

    @THE: in a century, the ME will be vastly more liberal. but it was never the clash of civilizations– the Freedom Agenda was a pre-doomed attempt to push western culture on islamic nations.
    those nations will gradually become more liberal and more free….but only after the US and the missionaries with guns GTFO.
    and then we can contemplate the price of ruin.

  169. 169.

    THE

    Because we cant win. Because al-Islam is an uninvadable darwinian EGT strategy.

    Sometimes I get really exhausted talking to you. Because you are just too stubborn or too stupid to understand what I am saying.

    Wars between major civilizations cannot be decided in a decade. They take centuries.

    The problem with Islam as an enemy, is not that it is unbeatable. It is that the cost of victory is not worth the benefit.

    Islam is not a serious threat to the West. It probably won’t be a serious threat to the West in 20 years time either.

    So why would USA keep wasting resources on useless freaking wars against nations that are no plausible real existential threat to you. There is a huge disconnect between means and ends.

    If you were fighting against a real contender I could see the point. I never objected to the war against the USSR, because I could see that the Soviets were a real alternative model of modernity. But Afghanistan. Or Egypt? Or Saudi Arabia?

  170. 170.

    THE

    Even Iraq. Even Iran. It’s a total freakin’ joke.
    Take away the oil revenue and these countries are facing disaster.
    They are not a long-term challenge.
    Better you spend the money on developing renewable energy.
    That will permanently solve the problem.

  171. 171.

    Samara Morgan

    @THE: my point exactly.
    we could have done a whole lot of renewable energy research for 14.3 trillion dollars over the last ten years.
    instead we succumbed to paranoia reflex.

    and i get exhausted talking to you. Islamic rejection of of western culture is a purely darwinian response, and was IPOF entirely predictable.
    you keep trying to make lemonade.
    there is no lemonade in this for America…..not a drop.

  172. 172.

    THE

    I’ll tell you something else. That $14.3 Trillion figure is almost certainly overstated. The only way you could get to such a high figure is if you included a lot of long-term costs, like caring for returned soldiers, and paying the interest on the debt.

    But the point is that those costs have not been paid yet. They will be incurred over coming decades as future liabilities. Spread over many decades, the costs are much more manageable.

    in fact if you worked out the comparable cost of caring for victims of say, traffic accidents, it would probably be far higher. There are many costs that are huge when counted over total lifetime cost.

  173. 173.

    Samara Morgan

    @THE: dude, its partly the cost of the damage paranoia induction has inflicted on the airlines for one thing. the cost of caring for the 2 in five returning vets with PSTD or organic brain trauma.
    the cost of building a green zone embassy the size of the vatican. the cost of building the three largest airfields ever built on foreign soil. etc, etc.

    there is no lemonade.

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