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You are here: Home / Politics / Activist Judges! / Market solves health care problem

Market solves health care problem

by Kay|  December 6, 20119:31 am| 141 Comments

This post is in: Activist Judges!, Domestic Politics, Free Markets Solve Everything, Open Threads

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Maybe they should have chosen someone who had been in business a little longer?

YOUNGSTOWN, Fla.—The woman chosen to represent the legal challenge to the Obama administration’s health-care overhaul filed for bankruptcy in September after her business failed, a move that could pose problems for the high-profile lawsuit.
The suit, brought by 26 states and joined by the National Federation of Independent Business, a small-business lobby group, is set to be heard by the Supreme Court next year. It relies in part on the story of Mary Brown, an auto-repair-shop owner who argued in court filings she would have had to divert funds from her business to comply with the law’s requirement that, beginning in 2014, most Americans obtain coverage or pay a penalty.
Ms. Brown closed her five-year-old Panama City, Fla., shop, Brown & Dockery Inc., in August, the same month she and the state coalition prevailed in front of the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. On Sept. 30, Ms. Brown and her husband filed for personal bankruptcy. They later listed $62,972.04 in debts, most of which were business expenses.
Without owning a business, it could be harder for Ms. Brown to argue she is harmed by the legislation. Meanwhile, her recent financial woes suggest the possibility she would be exempt from penalties for noncompliance with the individual mandate. That raises questions about whether the suit can be based on her experience.

How much of a problem this could cause is hard to predict. If her standing is voided and no replacement can be found, the suit could falter. The 11th Circuit specifically cited the government’s acknowledgment of Ms. Brown as a legitimate plaintiff in permitting the suit to proceed. That court is the only one of the four federal appeals courts to have ruled on the law that found any aspect of it unconstitutional.

Ms. Brown was asked to join the case, because she was better able to show she was harmed by the law today. In a May 2010 filing, Ms. Brown and the states cited the “profound and injurious impact” of the law on her and other business owners. These proprietors would be forced to divert resources from their endeavors even if the added costs threatened their ability to maintain their businesses, the filing said. Her bankruptcy hasn’t yet been disclosed to the court, something experts in civil procedure call necessary. “We intend to address the bankruptcy issue in our opening brief in January, and we will explain why it does not change anything,” Mr. Katsas said. Her lawyers in the case first learned of her bankruptcy around Oct. 6, he said.

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Reader Interactions

141Comments

  1. 1.

    Linda Featheringill

    December 6, 2011 at 9:39 am

    So the plaintiff’s change in circumstances has not been disclosed to the court and the lawyers plan on addressing that in their opening remarks?

    INAL, but I do have the impression that courts don’t like surprises like that.

    Lawyers care to comment?

  2. 2.

    Jennifer

    December 6, 2011 at 9:40 am

    I’m not a lawyer, but from the little I understand about the law I would think this is a pretty big problem. If she no longer has a business, she no longer has standing. She can’t very well claim that the health care law will impose an onerous burden on her business if she no longer has one.

  3. 3.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    December 6, 2011 at 9:42 am

    The generally used legal term of art in this case is “Oops.”

  4. 4.

    kay

    December 6, 2011 at 9:42 am

    @Linda Featheringill:

    Well, I will, because I read the whole thing. They emailed it to the court Friday, after the WSJ inquired.

    She dropped her private health insurance because she was paying 1100 dollars a month.

  5. 5.

    Joey Maloney

    December 6, 2011 at 9:44 am

    Those wacky Republicans.

  6. 6.

    ericblair

    December 6, 2011 at 9:50 am

    Seems that a lot of Republicans have very lucrative fantasy businesses with a bunch of imaginary problems caused by nonexistent regulations. It’s tough out there for a gooper.

  7. 7.

    Special Patrol Group

    December 6, 2011 at 9:52 am

    Rand Paul:

    For example, should a small business in a two-story building have to put in a costly elevator, even if it threatens their economic viability? Wouldn’t it be better to allow that business to give a handicapped employee a ground floor office?

    Reality:

    b) Elevator
    Subsection (a) of this section shall not be construed to require the installation of an elevator for facilities that are less than three stories or have less than 3,000 square feet per story unless the building is a shopping center, a shopping mall, or the professional office of a health care provider or unless the Attorney General determines that a particular category of such facilities requires the installation of elevators based on the usage of such facilities.

    As though being right matters.

  8. 8.

    Thoughtcrime

    December 6, 2011 at 9:54 am

    Obviously a Liberal conspiracy! That sneaky Obama filed the administration’s appeal 2 days before Ms. Brown filed for bankruptcy.

    Coincidence?

    I think not.

  9. 9.

    UncommonSense

    December 6, 2011 at 9:58 am

    This my favorite part of the story:

    Ms. Brown, who is receiving unemployment benefits, now spends her time caring for her parents, job hunting and tending to her garden crowded with birdbaths and wooden butterflies.

    Well, isn’t that precious? She’s living off of my tax dollars, spending her time gardening, doing crafts, and taking care of her parents. Couldn’t she find an ice floe to set ma and pa adrift on? And how much you wanna bet mammy and pappy are sucking on the twin teats of Social Security and Medicare while they’re at it?

    Referring to the health overhaul, she said: “No one has the right to try to control how you spend your money.”

    They sure don’t make rugged individualists like they used to.

    Of course, they never did.

  10. 10.

    Steve

    December 6, 2011 at 9:59 am

    The document that you typically file with the court after a party goes bankrupt is called a “Suggestion of Bankruptcy,” which I always thought was a funny name.

  11. 11.

    kay

    December 6, 2011 at 9:59 am

    @ericblair:

    The truth is that if she had gotten hit with uninsured medical expenses she would have filed bankruptcy and discharged the medical debt, because she’s not opposed to discharging debt she can’t pay, obviously.

    I’m a big supporter of the ability to file bankruptcy, but that was her unstated back-up plan for medical expenses. It would be nice if we started living in reality.

  12. 12.

    r€nato

    December 6, 2011 at 10:02 am

    This merely proves how deadly Obamacare is for the economy. It destroyed her business well before it took effect. Just think how bad it will be when it actually does take effect.

    /goldberg

  13. 13.

    hueyplong

    December 6, 2011 at 10:02 am

    Right wingers earned their gubmint benefits, which would be higher if they weren’t being wasted on strapping young bucks.

    Or something like that.

  14. 14.

    Skepticat

    December 6, 2011 at 10:04 am

    This may be OT, but it’s definitely health-care-cost related. I need to fill two very expensive prescriptions, neither one of which is covered under Medicare (the only health insurance I have at the moment).

    Does anyone have experience with a retail pharmacy and can offer advice on which is the best (i.e., most affordable)? I’ve had good luck with Costco, but these prescriptions are written in Maine, and Costco has no stores here. I’ve always refused to shop at Walmart, but I might have to make an exception in this case.

    Long ago I used to own two small businesses, and health care costs (I paid 100% of my employees’ coverage) were a large factor in my throwing in the towel.

  15. 15.

    Jennifer

    December 6, 2011 at 10:05 am

    @UncommonSense: How is she able to draw unemployment? Self-employed people generally can’t draw it if their business goes under, even if it’s incorporated. Or does this vary state-by-state?

  16. 16.

    The Dangerman

    December 6, 2011 at 10:08 am

    One might have thought that the Republicans would have taken all their Beemers and Benzes to her shop to make sure she survived; guess she didn’t work on the exotics.

  17. 17.

    The Moar You Know

    December 6, 2011 at 10:09 am

    She dropped her private health insurance because she was paying 1100 dollars a month.

    @kay: Oh, just let me guess what it’s been replaced with.

    How is she able to draw unemployment?

    @Jennifer: A business owner? Only way I know to do that is “fraudulently”.

  18. 18.

    Ned F

    December 6, 2011 at 10:09 am

    @Jennifer: That was my immediate question, as being self employed, I cannot collect unemployment.

  19. 19.

    jrg

    December 6, 2011 at 10:18 am

    Ms. Brown, who is receiving unemployment benefits, now spends her time caring for her parents, job hunting and tending to her garden crowded with birdbaths and wooden butterflies. Eating Moon pies, drinking RC cola, and calling Democrats “socia1ists” in online discussion forums.

    Fixed.

  20. 20.

    Elizabelle

    December 6, 2011 at 10:22 am

    More from the WSJ story:

    Referring to the health overhaul, [Ms. Brown] said: “No one has the right to try to control how you spend your money.”

    When the states filed their lawsuit in Pensacola, Fla., in March, Ms. Brown wasn’t taking a salary in order to keep her business afloat. The Gulf oil spill of spring 2010, in particular, slowed demand for repairs of commercial vehicles. She began putting personal savings into the business.

    I bet brainiac Ms. Brown would be happier if someone told BP to build and maintain safer offshore drilling platforms.

    And who’s to say she didn’t have more “personal savings” before the 2008 financial crash? Or that her customers couldn’t afford as many repairs?

    Lot of shuttered businesses in the aftermath of the financial meltdown. I sympathize with Ms. Brown on losing hers, but why is it so onerous to provide meaningful health care to Americans?

    To keep one’s employees safe, and provide a safety net for other aspiring entrepreneurs?

    Maybe Ms. Brown can reflect on that, while she paints her bowling ball.

    PS: From photos, Ms. Brown is moderately obese.

    Guess that goes to personal initiative and choice too?

  21. 21.

    The Other Bob

    December 6, 2011 at 10:23 am

    @r€nato:

    How much you want to bet that Faux news simply states that the law has: “…already pushed job providers out of business, the company who has filed a lawsuit against the law has already been driven under!”

    (Even though the law has yet to impose any sort of expenses on said business.)

  22. 22.

    Elizabelle

    December 6, 2011 at 10:23 am

    PS: Renato at 12 and JRG at 17 made me laugh.

  23. 23.

    JCT

    December 6, 2011 at 10:24 am

    @r€nato: This was exactly my thought. That Kenyan soshulist usurper is very clever.

  24. 24.

    flounder

    December 6, 2011 at 10:26 am

    How is she drawing unemployment? I couldn’t after my consulting business went kaput.
    Also, it says that the salary she was making from her small business was zero. Even if she did qualify, wouldn’t 70% (or whatever unemployment pays in Florida) of $0 be $0?

  25. 25.

    Villago Delenda Est

    December 6, 2011 at 10:26 am

    Shouldn’t someone be inspecting this woman’s counter tops?

  26. 26.

    Steve

    December 6, 2011 at 10:26 am

    While it’s annoying that this woman put her name on a lawsuit that we oppose, we’re sort of flirting with checking her countertops here.

  27. 27.

    flounder

    December 6, 2011 at 10:28 am

    Her phone number is easy to find. Maybe some enterprising young journalist with some time to burn wants to ask her about her unemployment.

  28. 28.

    flounder

    December 6, 2011 at 10:32 am

    @Steve: Not at all. The Wall Street Journal has flagged a potential crime that steals money from you and me. And if turns out that she didn’t really own this business, and was instead an employee who got laid off like everyone else, the courts should hear about it.
    I am for a more lenient system of keeping people on their feet, and that includes entrepreneurs who attempt to start small businesses, but that isn’t the way the system is set up, so everyone should play by the rules.

  29. 29.

    Gin & Tonic

    December 6, 2011 at 10:32 am

    A 56-year-old obese female smoker should be grateful that her health insurance premium was *only* $1,100/mo.

  30. 30.

    Raven

    December 6, 2011 at 10:32 am

    @jrg: peanuts in the RC please.

  31. 31.

    slag

    December 6, 2011 at 10:33 am

    @UncommonSense:

    Couldn’t she find an ice floe to set ma and pa adrift on?

    Ha! What the world needs now isn’t love. It’s more ice floes.

  32. 32.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    December 6, 2011 at 10:35 am

    @Steve: So, talking about how inane her arguments are is the same as inspecting her countertops? Should we leave Cain alone as well?

  33. 33.

    Lol

    December 6, 2011 at 10:35 am

    Come on, you have to admit it encapsulates everything about Republicans that an elderly, obese, smoking bonifide welfare cheat is their champion of choice against Obamacare.

  34. 34.

    Steve

    December 6, 2011 at 10:38 am

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): No, talking about finding her phone number and investigating her unemployment benefits is getting there, though. Awesome strawman dude!

  35. 35.

    harlana

    December 6, 2011 at 10:39 am

    maybe i’m crazy, but i just don’t consider this woman to be the ideal plaintiff, here O.o

  36. 36.

    soonergrunt

    December 6, 2011 at 10:40 am

    @Gin & Tonic: No shit.

  37. 37.

    Villago Delenda Est

    December 6, 2011 at 10:41 am

    @flounder:

    so everyone should play by the rules.

    Excluding all 1% types, of course.

    The rules are for the little people.

  38. 38.

    ericblair

    December 6, 2011 at 10:42 am

    @Steve:

    No, talking about finding her phone number and investigating her unemployment benefits is getting there, though.

    The unemployment benefits goes to her status at the company: was she actually one of the owners or not, because it’s rather confusing that she’s receiving them. The phone number deal was supposed to be for a journalist to get some answers. Having random loons from the intertubes phoning her is a gooper-type project.

  39. 39.

    Linda Featheringill

    December 6, 2011 at 10:42 am

    @Raven:

    peanuts in the RC please.

    LOL! I haven’t even thought about that for years!

  40. 40.

    dmsilev

    December 6, 2011 at 10:44 am

    @UncommonSense:

    Couldn’t she find an ice floe to set ma and pa adrift on?

    Not since the Evil Scientist Conspiracy created global warming to destroy the ice cap.

    You see, everything is connected! I’m sure George Soros and Saul Alinsky are tied in here somehow.

  41. 41.

    Cacti

    December 6, 2011 at 10:45 am

    Speaking only to the legal questions, Ms. Brown’s personal bankruptcy petition absolutely calls her standing into question.

    Federal courts do not issue advisory opinions on legal hypotheticals, Article III requires an “actual case or controversy” for plaintiff standing.

    If her business is dissolved in the BK proceedings, her actual case or controversy re PPACA disappears.

  42. 42.

    Steve

    December 6, 2011 at 10:47 am

    @ericblair: Well, you’ll have to explain to me why it’s important to investigate this single, solitary failed business owner in the first place, other than the fact that she foolishly signed onto a lawsuit we don’t like. If you recall, the countertops kid supposedly “exposed himself to public scrutiny” too.

    I’m as happy as the next guy to mock people who go around saying “keep your gubmint hands off my Medicare,” but I have no interest in delving into their affairs to find out if they really, truly qualified for that scooter.

  43. 43.

    double nickel

    December 6, 2011 at 10:48 am

    @slag:

    Global warming has created an ice floe shortage. Perhaps a rowboat set afire would substitute?

  44. 44.

    Gex

    December 6, 2011 at 10:49 am

    @The Moar You Know: When I had my LLC, the state of MN made me pay in to unemployment insurance even though I was the only “employee” in the business. I would assume that would mean I could draw UI if the business went under in a non-fraudulent way.

  45. 45.

    UncommonSense

    December 6, 2011 at 10:49 am

    @dmsilev: Mystery solved!

    It’s all so clear now.

  46. 46.

    harlana

    December 6, 2011 at 10:51 am

    @Steve:

    No, talking about finding her phone number and investigating her unemployment benefits

    — it would have been nice if WSJ had done a little detective work on the latter, no? It is quite germane to the subject at hand, considering she is supposed to be a former business owner, likely making her ineligible.

    I’m guessing that, despite the fact she is not qualified, the gubmint just plain old forced those UI benefits on this defenseless, garden-puttering woman, and I wonder why she’s not complaining about that, too, because no one should tell you what money and aid to accept when you’re down and out!

  47. 47.

    Gex

    December 6, 2011 at 10:51 am

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): Owning a business and suing the government are a private matter. You should be ashamed of yourself.

  48. 48.

    ericblair

    December 6, 2011 at 10:52 am

    @Cacti:

    Speaking only to the legal questions, Ms. Brown’s personal bankruptcy petition absolutely calls her standing into question.

    It also says in the text that the business in question is closed. Did they ever drop the fucking ball there; I’m sure that if the anti-healthcare machine was aware that the business they’re relying on was in jeopardy they could have funneled enough repair business or straight-up cash into it to keep it alive. I would think that there’s a lot of screaming teleconferences today.

  49. 49.

    Jennifer

    December 6, 2011 at 10:52 am

    @Gex: As I speculated, it may be that the rules for drawing unemployment vary from state to state, but I know that here in Arkansas, if you own the business, you pay into unemployment – and if the business goes under, you aren’t eligible to draw it.

  50. 50.

    Soonergrunt

    December 6, 2011 at 10:52 am

    OT–NOTHING pisses me off at work more than somebody leaving their own office and coming into my office to rant at me and my office-mate for ANY length of time about how the union only exists to protect people who don’t do their jobs. And when the non-self-aware motherfucker does it for almost an hour, then I just gotta say “so you’re going down to the union office right now to join then, because you haven’t done a fucking thing in fifty-six minutes, right?”

  51. 51.

    Tone in DC

    December 6, 2011 at 10:53 am

    @Gin & Tonic:
    Maybe when she’s doing better financially, maybe she can invest in SlimFast and some nicotine gum. Be more useful to buy these than pay lawyers for her so-called suit.

  52. 52.

    harlana

    December 6, 2011 at 10:53 am

    @Steve: b/c you don’t want to expose republican hypocrisy? that is our job here. don’t make me cry, really.

  53. 53.

    rikryah

    December 6, 2011 at 10:54 am

    can I go hee hee hee

  54. 54.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    December 6, 2011 at 10:55 am

    @Steve: The points being debated here are directly related to the case, unlike her countertops. Her drawing unemployment may relate to her ownership status. If her company was doing so bad that she filed for bankruptsy, she wouldn’t have been penalized for not having insurance. On these merits, she may not have standing, making her a bad choice to base a case on.

  55. 55.

    Cacti

    December 6, 2011 at 10:55 am

    @ericblair:

    It also says in the text that the business in question is closed.

    Missed that part.

    Her claim is definitely moot.

  56. 56.

    Anya

    December 6, 2011 at 10:56 am

    @Jennifer:

    How is she able to draw unemployment? Self-employed people generally can’t draw it if their business goes under, even if it’s incorporated. Or does this vary state-by-state?

    Maybe her husband owns the business and she’s an employee. My friend’s parents own a business and one of them is the legal owner and the other is an employee.

  57. 57.

    Woodrowfan

    December 6, 2011 at 10:57 am

    I’m curious how her company was rated on Anglie’s List.

  58. 58.

    Niques

    December 6, 2011 at 10:58 am

    @Jennifer: In Florida, if you own a business or are a sole proprietor, you are not eligible for unemployment benefits when that business or proprietorship goes under.

  59. 59.

    Jennifer

    December 6, 2011 at 10:58 am

    @Steve: It’s not important to investigate her for any reason other than this: if the state of Florida does not allow business owners to draw unemployment if their business goes under, and she’s drawing it, I would say that undercuts her standing as a “business owner” claiming that she’s going to be harmed by the ACA. Wouldn’t you? I couldn’t give two shits what kind of countertops she has and for the record, I started this whole line of inquiry just by questioning how she could draw unemployment; I never suggested that anyone should investigate her. But her eligibility (or lack thereof) for unemployment benefits goes to her status as a business owner. She either owned the business or she didn’t; she’s either ineligible or eligible for the benefits she’s drawing based on that fact – which also impinges on her standing in the lawsuit.

  60. 60.

    harlana

    December 6, 2011 at 10:59 am

    when i was unemployed, i had to focus on the basic necessities of life, such as health care and food, as opposed to garden-puttering – must be nice

  61. 61.

    Tone in DC

    December 6, 2011 at 10:59 am

    @rikryah:
    I just did. ;-)

  62. 62.

    Woodrowfan

    December 6, 2011 at 11:00 am

    Leave the fat jokes to the righties please people. It’s not relevant.

  63. 63.

    Jennifer

    December 6, 2011 at 11:00 am

    @Niques: According to the cited report, the business was incorporated. I know that in this state, that doesn’t matter, either. If it’s a privately-held corporation and you are the owner/operator, you’re still not eligible for unemployment if the business closes.

  64. 64.

    harlana

    December 6, 2011 at 11:00 am

    @Anya:

    Maybe her husband owns the business and she’s an employee.

    I thought about that, it’s the only thing that makes sense. In which case, WSJ has done a rather poor job here, to say the least, calling her a “business owner.”

  65. 65.

    Karen in GA

    December 6, 2011 at 11:01 am

    @Soonergrunt: I love you. Granted it’s in a platonic internet commenter sort of way, but it’s a very real love nonetheless.

  66. 66.

    daveNYC

    December 6, 2011 at 11:01 am

    @flounder: Eh, she could have had a salary listed, but wasn’t taking money for it. Probably an easy enough accounting thing to do. The self-employed but now getting unemployment is a bit more of an issue.

  67. 67.

    Villago Delenda Est

    December 6, 2011 at 11:02 am

    @Steve:

    It’s only important in that it is directly related to her standing to be a participant in the lawsuit.

    I’m not a lawyer, but that strikes me as just slightly relevant here.

  68. 68.

    Cermet

    December 6, 2011 at 11:02 am

    @Cacti: Silly rabbit – screwing amerikans is always permitted to do so the case will go thru the courts because the 0.1% make the big bulks and gives these minons crumbs – her standingwill be fine by the court.

  69. 69.

    Woodrowfan

    December 6, 2011 at 11:02 am

    when i was unemployed, i had to focus on the basic necessities of life, such as health care and food, as opposed to garden-puttering – must be nice

    When I was unemployed (2006-2007) our house was never cleaner and our gardens nicer because working on them made me feel as if I was in control of something in my life and it helped me work off my frustration. People handle that situation in different ways

  70. 70.

    Gin & Tonic

    December 6, 2011 at 11:03 am

    @Woodrowfan: This is a health-insurance issue. Her obesity is as directly relevant as her age and her cigarette-smoking.

  71. 71.

    The Moar You Know

    December 6, 2011 at 11:07 am

    Why is it that every time a conservative gets caught, figuratively or literally with their pants down, there’s always some puke funnel sobbing about how we can’t punch back because it’s “just like countertop inspection” or “we should take the high road”.

    Fuck that. The fascists do that shit because it works. To unilaterally disarm yourself while fighting people who have literally not one drop of human decency is total insanity and I am not signing on for that bullshit.

    This lying tool of the oligarchs needs to be getting calls from the media every fifteen minutes, 24/7, until she collapses in a screaming ball, drops the suit, and admits that her entire life has been a hateful teahadist fraud perpetuated against her fellow human beings.

  72. 72.

    Soonergrunt

    December 6, 2011 at 11:07 am

    @Jennifer: She’s either perpetrating a fraud upon the unemployment insurance system in Florida, or she’s perpetrating a fraud upon the courts.
    EDIT–or she’s misrepresented herself to the WSJ for purposes unknown, but likely related to fraud.

  73. 73.

    slag

    December 6, 2011 at 11:10 am

    Speaking of healthcare, Politico is apparently giving an award for Most Nihilistic Healthcare Policymaker of the Year to Paul Ryan. Except they left off the Most Nihilistic part of the award name.

    How typical of Republicans, in general….”Somebody fucked up really badly? Why, give that man an award!” And they don’t even mean it ironically.

  74. 74.

    Hoodie

    December 6, 2011 at 11:12 am

    Her closing the business may mean decertification of the class action, but it may not result in dismissal of the appeal. Remember, the WH wanted to push this to appeal, so it may be up to them to decide whether to ask for dismissal. The reason that a court may allow the appeal to continue is that the Government has an interest in finality and this woman’s participation isn’t all that critical. Dismissal would allow the plaintiffs in interest (the AGs and industry orgs) to simply go back and find another class representative and drag this out closer to the 2014 inception date. It may come down to whether the WH thinks the record for this case gives them advantages in the appeal.

  75. 75.

    Brandon

    December 6, 2011 at 11:12 am

    @Gex: you posted exactly what I was thinking. If it was an LLC, she could have been an ‘owner’ as member and an employee if she was collecting wages. So the issue is not as cut and dry as people imagine.

    @Cacti: and if I remember correctly from law school, standing for the Plaintiff is a threshold that necessitates showing “injury in fact”. What interests me though is that the Administration even.recognized her standing in the first place, conceding that the PPACA would cause her economic injury. Because looking at circumstances makes it far from clear that was ever the case for her business. It amazes me that they are so eager to fight the Constitutional battle that they have ceded the one most easily winnable. They should just hire an Army of accountants and require anyone that wants to challenge the law to prove it by showing them their books.

  76. 76.

    Niques

    December 6, 2011 at 11:13 am

    @Jennifer: Yes, I believe it is the same here. In fact, I worked for a year as “contract labor”, meaning I was responsible for my own taxes, and did not qualify for unemployment benefits when that job ended. If I understand it correctly, only those employees for whom payroll taxes are paid by the employer would ever qualify.

  77. 77.

    Benjamin Franklin

    December 6, 2011 at 11:13 am

    “Ms. Brown, who is receiving unemployment benefits, now spends her time caring for her parents, job hunting and tending to her garden crowded with birdbaths and wooden butterflies. Her next project, she says, is to paint an old bowling ball to resemble a ladybug.”

    Is Joe the Plumber still getting unemployment, no thanks to Obama?

  78. 78.

    slag

    December 6, 2011 at 11:13 am

    @The Moar You Know:

    The fascists do that shit because it works. To unilaterally disarm yourself while fighting people who have literally not one drop of human decency is total insanity and I am not signing on for that bullshit.

    OK. But if you’re going to embrace the tactics, you can’t complain when they’re used against you later. That’s the Rumsfeld Rule nobody talks about.

  79. 79.

    Enhanced Voting Techniques

    December 6, 2011 at 11:14 am

    @Woodrowfan:

    Leave the fat jokes to the righties please people. It’s not relevant.

    Her weight and smoking are an issue for her getting health insurance under the glorious free market she embraces.

  80. 80.

    Anya

    December 6, 2011 at 11:14 am

    @harlana: I think anyway you look at it, she was a terrible choice for a plaintiff. It just shows how amateurish the people apposing the ACA are. They have relied on lies, empty slogans, emotions and media’s bias toward controversy.

  81. 81.

    Soonergrunt

    December 6, 2011 at 11:17 am

    @Benjamin Franklin: I have no idea about Sam the Plumbing Business Clerk’s current employment, except that he had recently announced his intention to run for Congress in Ohio. In a pretty liberal district in which he does not now reside.

  82. 82.

    harlana

    December 6, 2011 at 11:18 am

    @Woodrowfan: after 2 years of NO work, (along with 5 years of looking for permanent employment and working temp jobs in the interim) nope, i didn’t really see the purpose in anything, much less living, after that point, except continuing to look for employment; i’m glad it was a positive experience for you. it practically destroyed me and i am still in the process of recovery and learning, believing in my heart, that i am “safe” again.

    but at least my conscience is clear, i never voted republican.

  83. 83.

    RP

    December 6, 2011 at 11:20 am

    For an interesting contrast, check out the op-ed on ACA in the LA Times.

  84. 84.

    slag

    December 6, 2011 at 11:22 am

    @RP: Also discussed by the Benenator.

  85. 85.

    The Moar You Know

    December 6, 2011 at 11:22 am

    OK. But if you’re going to embrace the tactics, you can’t complain when they’re used against you later.

    @slag: They’re using them against us now.

  86. 86.

    harlana

    December 6, 2011 at 11:23 am

    @Benjamin Franklin:

    Her next project, she says, is to paint an old bowling ball to resemble a ladybug.

    you made up that last part, didn’t you? =)

  87. 87.

    Steve

    December 6, 2011 at 11:24 am

    @The Moar You Know: Oh yeah, it really “worked” when Michelle Malkin investigated that kid’s countertops. They really crushed us on that S-CHIP issue. We’d really be tying one hand around our backs if we failed to adopt that winning tactic.

    I didn’t say the comments were exactly the same as investigating countertops – I only said we seemed to be flirting with the idea – but some of the justifications are really getting pathetic. Did I really hear someone mock her weight and then say “it’s totally relevant to the ACA because it’s a medical issue”? Come on. She sounds like a regular person who is deeply misguided in her opposition to the ACA; why do we have to behave like she’s Karl Rove?

  88. 88.

    Citizen Alan

    December 6, 2011 at 11:25 am

    IIRC from Fed Jur, I think the plaintiff still has standing under the doctrine of “capable of repetition but evading review,” which means that she had standing when she filed suit, she no longer has standing, but she may have standing in the future because she can always start a new business that may be subject to the ACA. “Capable of repetition …” was most famously used in Roe v. Wade, where the plaintiff technically did not have standing at the time SCOTUS heard the case because she had already given birth, but she was pregnant when she filed suit and she was capable of getting pregnant again in the future. Not going to wade into the UI thicket, cause that’s not my area.

  89. 89.

    JPL

    December 6, 2011 at 11:25 am

    Although I did not read the article, I did look at the photos. She compares herself to Rosa Parks. I never met Rosa Parks but I still feel qualified to say she is no Rosa Parks.

  90. 90.

    BDeevDad

    December 6, 2011 at 11:26 am

    Someone should just google this info. Oh.

    Q: Can I collect unemployment benefits if I owned a business? -J, Pembroke Pines
    A: Yes, if you paid into the Florida (or another state’s) unemployment insurance trust fund, then you can collect unemployment benefits if your business closes.

  91. 91.

    PaulW

    December 6, 2011 at 11:27 am

    From what I read about Brown’s situation, the health care law wasn’t her problem: the economic meltdown and environmental disasters were.

    She ought to sue BP oil for damages and not worry about Obamacare killing her already-dead business. And from this article is claiming, Obamacare would have exempted her anyway.

  92. 92.

    Brandon

    December 6, 2011 at 11:28 am

    @Hoodie: granted I have no knowledge of anything about this case, but I don’t believe it is a class action. The Plaintiff is this woman and the state AGs and wingnut orgs are joined as parties to the suit. Also too, making them start over again in District Court is a big deal. The 11th Cir. opinion was only relevant to the facts of this case. They now need to find another Plaintiff with similar facts that can demonstrate “injury in fact” and start from scratch. I bet it is going to be hard to do and it will certainly delay any ruling until after the election which is positive for many reasons, primarily because it gives the law time to be implemented so people will like it more and it takes the political Supreme Court out of the picture, because I have no faith that they will not once again rule in bad faith to try and swing another election.

  93. 93.

    Linda Featheringill

    December 6, 2011 at 11:29 am

    @Skepticat:

    In Ohio, some of the grocery chains have pharmacies with prices comparable to WalMart.

  94. 94.

    Soonergrunt

    December 6, 2011 at 11:30 am

    @Steve:

    She sounds like a regular person who is deeply misguided

    Those types can do a tremendous amount of damage if allowed to do so. I doubt that sitting down and talking with her over a nice cup of tea will work very well.

  95. 95.

    harlana

    December 6, 2011 at 11:31 am

    @JPL:

    She compares herself to Rosa Parks.

    Ok, i admit i skimmed the article since i am at work, but you guys, you’re really making this stuff up

    aren’t you? =)

  96. 96.

    Jennifer

    December 6, 2011 at 11:31 am

    @Niques: Not necessarily. As I said, in this state, if a privately-held corporation shuts down, the owner/operator is not entitled to unemployment benefits, even if they were a salaried employee of the corporation.

    Which makes sense if you think about it. I think the reasoning behind it is that, as the owner of the business, whether sole proprietorship, LLC, or corporation, your employment status rests more entirely in your own hands than it does if you are employed by a company in which you have no ownership interest. It would be too easy otherwise for someone to register a business they never really worked at or had any intention of making work, then going onto unemployment when it closes.

  97. 97.

    slag

    December 6, 2011 at 11:32 am

    @The Moar You Know: True. So you can’t complain when they use them against you now.

    Honestly, my sympathies tend to lean toward Steve’s argument, in general. This woman is an idiot, as evidenced by all of her expressed attitudes. I’d prefer to not have to judge her personal behaviors, not knowing the particulars of her life. It’s akin to TNC’s point about preferring to know what he’s talking about before he takes a position.

    That said, I think Soonergrunt’s point about the cost of her health insurance was actually relevant, so I’m a faint-hearted apologist on this issue.

  98. 98.

    harlana

    December 6, 2011 at 11:34 am

    it really strikes me as absurd to bring lawsuits when the ACA has not gone into effect, IMO. you can’t predict damages, geez. damages are determined and paid after they are incurred.

  99. 99.

    Jennifer

    December 6, 2011 at 11:34 am

    Nevermind. I see that in Florida the rules are different.

  100. 100.

    Brandon

    December 6, 2011 at 11:35 am

    @Citizen Alan: I don’t think that holds here because the key issue for standing here is showing economic injury now and if she starts another business, the facts of her business could be such that she may not be able to demonstrate economic injury at all.

  101. 101.

    Woodrowfan

    December 6, 2011 at 11:37 am

    @harlana: I wouldn’t call it a positive experience, merely that I coped in a different manner. I have been working part-time since 07 and go full-time in a month. Finally! I know how it sucks. At age 52 I have to start saving for retirement.

  102. 102.

    JPL

    December 6, 2011 at 11:37 am

    @harlana: I went through the photos and that was the caption under one of the photos. At least she didn’t cite Lady Godiva.

  103. 103.

    catclub

    December 6, 2011 at 11:38 am

    @slag: “Ha! What the world needs now isn’t love. It’s more ice floes.”

    The real problem of global warming.

  104. 104.

    AMD

    December 6, 2011 at 11:40 am

    How long before a Sean Hannity, Newt Gingrich or Hindrocket claims she filed bankruptcy “because of” or “in anticipation of” Obamacare? Just because it’s not true doesn’t mean it’s not a great talking point.

  105. 105.

    Vlad

    December 6, 2011 at 11:40 am

    If businesses are people, how are you allowed to own one? Isn’t that slavery?

  106. 106.

    Origuy

    December 6, 2011 at 11:41 am

    @Skepticat: Walgreens is pretty expensive, I can tell you that. Target pharmacies are probably comparable to Walmart, although if you are avoiding Walmart because of its policies, Target isn’t much better. If you are avoiding Walmart because it’s a pain to go there, Target is a little better.
    Some manufacturers have programs to help with expensive medications. Look into it. How far are you from the Canadian border?

  107. 107.

    Benjamin Franklin

    December 6, 2011 at 11:44 am

    @harlana:

    Every day, I wish for a greater imagination than that, which reality provides.

  108. 108.

    ploeg

    December 6, 2011 at 11:45 am

    You can own a business and work somewhere else entirely. When I was growing up, lots of people in the area had day jobs in town but were farmers nights and weekends. You can even own a farm and draw money from it as a business and just have somebody else do the work.

    It’s a good question what job she had. Maybe even the WSJ asked it and it didn’t get into the article. I’m sure that we’ll find out.

  109. 109.

    Raven

    December 6, 2011 at 11:45 am

    @Origuy: We have a huge battle with a developer that wants Walmart as the anchor for a “near downtown” Athens development.

  110. 110.

    Villago Delenda Est

    December 6, 2011 at 11:45 am

    @harlana:

    It may, but when I worked at a small local telephone company (“Competitive Local Exchange Carrier”), you wouldn’t believe how many people lost “millions of dollars” (mostly real estate agent types) when their phone service was disrupted for an hour.

    Yet they hated the local Incumbent Local Exchange Carrier so much that they dropped their service for ours. Even though odds are that the ILEC’s big expensive switchboard didn’t have the problems that our crappy little glorified Private Branch Exchange serving as a public switchboard had, which is why they had a one hour outage.

  111. 111.

    The Moar You Know

    December 6, 2011 at 11:47 am

    So you can’t complain when they use them against you now.

    @slag: I wouldn’t; I never have. I complain only about so-called “liberals” who don’t have the courage of their convictions, “liberals” who sit around and complain about getting beat up on by the mean Republicans but who would never consider for a second leaving the comfort zone of their own righteousness to actually try fighting back in an effective manner.

    It took from the 1880s to the 1930s – decades of getting shot, tortured, dynamited and maimed by police and Pinkertons for liberals to finally understand that their opposition was not fucking around. We’re now into decade 3 of them trying to get their own back, and they’re smarter about it this time than they were last time, but the stakes are exactly the same. Maybe we’ll “get it” again. I remain hopeful.

  112. 112.

    Anya

    December 6, 2011 at 11:50 am

    @slag:

    Speaking of healthcare, Politico is apparently giving an award for Most Nihilistic Healthcare Policymaker of the Year to Paul Ryan. Except they left off the Most Nihilistic part of the award name.

    WTmotherF?! Are you sure the award is not like “The Razzie Awards?”

  113. 113.

    slag

    December 6, 2011 at 11:52 am

    @catclub: Exactly. I’m hoping Republicans might weigh their preference for putting their elders out on ice floes favorably against their preference for making the planet uninhabitable and thus start to support anti-global warming initiatives. Sooo in that spirit….

    Less nice; more ice!

    or maybe…

    Ma and pa need a new pair of ice caps!

    Damn! Where’s Frank Luntz when we need him?

  114. 114.

    Woodrowfan

    December 6, 2011 at 11:57 am

    FWIW, Brown & Dockery Inc. had good reviews online. So she may be a RW dumbass but it’s too bad about her business.

    Maybe she should start a craft business for garden stuff. What righties were just claiming the unemployed should just start their own businesses?

  115. 115.

    AA+ Bonds

    December 6, 2011 at 11:57 am

    As others have noted, Ms. Brown now receives unemployment benefits which may allow her to recover financially and continue contributing to America’s economic well-being.

    By her own account, she will spend those benefits on gardening supplies, money that will go right back into moving the economy.

    Isn’t America great? I mean, she doesn’t think so, but isn’t it great regardless?

  116. 116.

    Ned F

    December 6, 2011 at 12:01 pm

    @Elizabelle: reading the comments below the WSJ article, many blame her business loss on Obama’s moratorium on drilling as the casuse. Not BP’s. Ohno.

  117. 117.

    slag

    December 6, 2011 at 12:02 pm

    @Anya: I know. But you have to admit…it fits the pattern. Mission Accomplished, Paul Ryan!

    But if you haven’t read Steve’s takedown of it, I highly recommend. It doesn’t get much better.

  118. 118.

    AA+ Bonds

    December 6, 2011 at 12:02 pm

    @slag:

    Erskine Bowles endorsed Paul Ryan for President last month at UNC.

    Paul Ryan: he’s clearly the Villagers’ choice, and I ain’t lyin’ – they loved his kill-America proposal and they love his tight little tush. His willingness to stand up against America’s economy and people has warmed their cold, cold hearts. To about 55 K.

    Expect to see him gussied up for 2016. His vote on the balanced-budget amendment was designed to make him seem Brooksian.

  119. 119.

    harlana

    December 6, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    @Woodrowfan: congrats on the FT job! i consider myself very fortunate, being in the same age group, to have a FT job now with bennies now, after all this time. it took 7 years to get that back. what was just as soul-crushing, for me, was knowing all along that it wasn’t just happening to me, but all around me and that the mother’s milk of the American dream that i was raised on was basically dead to all of us and we will never get that back, not in our lifetime and probably not ever. equally depressing was the fact that, at least at the time, everybody seemed to be taking it lying down.

    that’s changed, and i’m so relieved.

  120. 120.

    kay

    December 6, 2011 at 12:04 pm

    @PaulW:

    From what I read about Brown’s situation, the health care law wasn’t her problem: the economic meltdown and environmental disasters were.

    Or all the million and one other reasons that small businesses fail. I think her whole argument is ridiculous. If paying a penalty or contributing to a (federally subsidized) health insurance premium was going to tank her small business, she had some other problems. That alone was going to kill her business? Why not just pick any one of her other expenses, and blame that?

  121. 121.

    ed drone

    December 6, 2011 at 12:04 pm

    @slag:
    And ice floes, as we knows, is the victims of global warming, which, of course, doesn’t exist.

    Or something.

    Ed

  122. 122.

    feebog

    December 6, 2011 at 12:07 pm

    “We intend to address the bankruptcy issue in our opening brief in January, and we will explain why it does not change anything,” Mr. Katsas said.

    Really? Because it sounds like you have a great big hole in the boat and you have nothing to plug it with. These people are not serious. If they were, they would be out looking for a stand in.

  123. 123.

    slag

    December 6, 2011 at 12:07 pm

    @AA+ Bonds: You definitely ain’t lyin’. He’s their dream lover so they don’t have to dream alone.

  124. 124.

    FormerSwingVoter

    December 6, 2011 at 12:15 pm

    @Steve:

    She sounds like a regular person who is deeply misguided in her opposition to the ACA; why do we have to behave like she’s Karl Rove?

    When someone decides they’re going to burn the world, no one really gives a fuck that they decided to do it because someone told them that a burning world would be filled with unicorns and candy. We just care that they’re trying to burn the fucking world, since that happens to be where we live and keep all our stuff.

  125. 125.

    harlana

    December 6, 2011 at 12:16 pm

    @AMD:

    How long before a Sean Hannity, Newt Gingrich or Hindrocket claims she filed bankruptcy “because of” or “in anticipation of” Obamacare?

    I’d give it about 5 more minutes and she will be the poster child for how Obama and the terrifying specter of “soshulized medicine” is destroying small business.

  126. 126.

    Steve

    December 6, 2011 at 12:21 pm

    @FormerSwingVoter: I don’t think someone putting their name on a lawsuit is all that different from a kid delivering the Democrats’ weekly radio address in favor of S-CHIP, to be honest. I understand you think she is Satan and must be destroyed at all costs. I am attempting to encourage you to recalibrate your aim. You will not achieve liberal policy goals by destroying each Republican voter one by one.

  127. 127.

    burnspbesq

    December 6, 2011 at 12:21 pm

    @Hoodie:

    Remember, the WH wanted to push this to appeal, so it may be up to them to decide whether to ask for dismissal.

    Nope. Not the law now, never has been the law. Standing is jurisdictional, and jurisdictional issues can be raised at any time, by a party or by the court on its own motion. That’s why the court has instructed the parties to brief the Anti-Injunction Act issue.

  128. 128.

    Scamp Dog

    December 6, 2011 at 12:26 pm

    Skepticat: Just get on the phone to the pharmacies and ask. I did that for some meds that I’m on, and found that they’ll give you an answer right then and there. I wound up finding out that the best price was from a Canadian pharmacy, so don’t forget that angle.

  129. 129.

    Anya

    December 6, 2011 at 12:26 pm

    @slag: Steve Benen is a treasure. Why does Politico have any credibility, and why is a “news” organization giving awards to politicians?

  130. 130.

    Snowball

    December 6, 2011 at 12:30 pm

    @UncommonSense:

    Ms. Brown, who is receiving unemployment benefits, now spends her time caring for her parents, job hunting and tending to her garden crowded with birdbaths and wooden butterflies. Referring to the health overhaul, she said: “No one has the right to try to control how you spend your money.”

    I’m just speechless…

  131. 131.

    Soonergrunt

    December 6, 2011 at 12:33 pm

    @FormerSwingVoter:

    When someone decides they’re going to burn the world, no one really gives a fuck that they decided to do it because someone told them that a burning world would be filled with unicorns and candy. We just care that they’re trying to burn the fucking world, since that happens to be where we live and keep all our stuff.

    Well done, Sir.

    @Steve: This person making herself a party to litigation is quite a bit different from some kid saying “my life is better because of SCHIP, and other kids’ lives are too.”
    The latter is making a rhetorical argument, the former is a cog in a machine.
    Also, what he said.

  132. 132.

    slag

    December 6, 2011 at 12:40 pm

    @Anya:

    Why does Politico have any credibility, and why is a “news” organization giving awards to politicians?

    Dunno. To keep Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert gainfully employed?

  133. 133.

    El Cid

    December 6, 2011 at 1:01 pm

    @Soonergrunt: From time to time we must remember to give ourselves permission not to focus first and foremost on what someone’s intentions are. Evil can be evil whether or not evil cackling is present.

  134. 134.

    Joel

    December 6, 2011 at 1:17 pm

    “Bankruptcy should always be a last resort in our legal system,” Bush said. “If someone does not pay his or her debts the rest of society ends up paying them.”

    The schadenfreude. It burns.

  135. 135.

    Ben Cisco

    December 6, 2011 at 1:27 pm

    She’ll have her own show on Fox before the week’s out.

  136. 136.

    Skepticat

    December 6, 2011 at 2:09 pm

    @Linda Featheringill: @Origuy: @Scamp Dog:

    I’ve been calling/visiting grocery pharmacies, and thus far the costs for the more expensive of the two range from $189 to $175 (for thirty capsules). Unfortunately logistics (I’m leaving the country in four days) keep me from getting to Canada (plus the fuel costs would overwhelm the savings). However, I had the doctor run out a consult memorandum that I’ll take to my doctor in the Bahamas in hopes he’ll prescribe there. The osteoporosis med I take is half the cost there that it is in the US.
    Better living–in poverty–through chemistry …

  137. 137.

    Kelly

    December 6, 2011 at 2:24 pm

    @slag: this is why conservatives should worry about global warming

  138. 138.

    ksmiami

    December 6, 2011 at 6:43 pm

    Dear America – Grow up and STOP electing muthereffin Republicans… Unless you make over 600k / yr, there is no there, there…

    that’s all

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