Yes, the Health and Human Services decision on Plan B is terrible, politically motivated and without basis in science. I am profoundly depressed by it.
That doesn’t make me want to see Republicans control the White House in 2013, though.
Your thoughts?
BGinCHI
Was it Sibelius’s call or did it come from the WH?
Heard on NPR that it was her call and that no one could say whether the WH was in on making the decision. If they were, it sounds like election year ass-covering.
Fargus
I think Benen was instructive on this. It’s clearly a political decision, but the people likely to look kindly on it are people who still would never consider voting for Obama, and the people who look down on it are ones who would otherwise vote for Obama, but for whom this issue might make them think twice about staying home.
EDIT: But yes, of course, this is still miles and miles better than anything that would happen under a Republican administration. ANY Republican administration.
Raven
cyntax
No it doesn’t make me want to see the WH controlled by Republicans, but is there anything the Admin would conceivably do that could make you want the WH to be controlled by Republicans? I mean I suppose it’s possible but it’s also possible that the Earth will be hit by meteor that wipes out all life, not the most useful yardstick for making or evaluating decisions.
bin Lurkin'
@BGinCHI: That would be a fairly bold move to make if your boss disapproved..
Both of my granddaughters are boy magnets already, this move is fairly personal to me.
Linnaeus
@BGinCHI:
From what I’ve read, the president said that he wasn’t involved, but that he supported Sebelius’ decision.
And yes, it’s entirely possible to disagree with the HHS decision and still not want Republicans in the White House.
OzoneR
Political or not, I think it was the right decision.
and before you tell me I want women to have back alley abortions and bleed to death at the hands of evil men, I just do not agree with handing out drugs to teenagers in a culture where drugs are a problem, especially ones you take AFTER sex.
You’re under the legal age, you can’t drink, you can’t vote, you can’t (in most jurisdictions) get married without your parents’ permission. What’s the problem with going through parents or doctors for this? I just don’t get it.
desraye
This was not politically motivated.
PhoenixRising
As a parent of a tween girl, with friends whose children are older teenagers, I plan to follow their advice: Have a self-refilling Plan B box in the kid’s medicine cabinet from the time she seems capable of choosing sex with boys. Cuts down on hassle and delays.
Why can’t Michele do the same thing for her girls? That seems common sense to me. Then we can have the least restricted access to Plan B that is demonstrated to be safe, i.e. no restrictions at all, for the girls whose moms aren’t as listen-y and cool as we are. Everyone will be happy, except the weirdos who think that parenthood (or a surgical abortion) is a good consequence for being an impulsive teenager who had sex.
Brian R.
Sure, it’s politically motivated. But it’s the right call.
I’d rather avoid the mass mobilization of religious conservatives behind ads that note — accurately — that “President Obama has made the morning after pill available to preteen girls.”
Plan B is still available, without prescription, to any woman who wants it. All this does is maintain that girls under the age of 17 have to get a prescription, or have an adult get it for them.
Is it a setback to reproductive rights? Yes. Is it more of one than the inevitable assault on reproductive rights that would happen with a Republican president? Hell no.
Shinobi
I completely agree with Dougj. Also I read a great post at The Economist on this:
OzoneR
@cyntax:
Close private businesses and installing complete government control over everything?
Mike Goetz
I think it was a fine decision. It probably was politically motivated in a sense, in that it would have pissed off a lot of parents (not just Chiristian or Republican ones) unnecessarily.
As for not being “based on science”: Just because the FDA says something is medically OK to sell over the counter does not automatically mean it should be. There are other considerations, sociological, ethical, even moral, to take into account, including the beliefs of a large mass of ordinary parents.
seabe
I agree. It’s something I’m pissed about, but it’s not an outrage. Plus, this isn’t a reversal, it’s simply the status quo. Now if he reneges on the promise that insurance companies give free birth control, then break out the pitchforks.
Yevgraf
Actually, I’m thinking that Plan B in the hands of your average 14 year old can be fairly disastrous. That is a potent hormone load – and if on shelves, could you see vindictive kids using it on pregnant relatives and school admins? I could see it.
I’m thinking that this is the sort of nuanced decision that made me really like Obama as a hiree for this job.
FlipYrWhig
How could it not be political? It’s pretty much my definition political when the political appointee overrules the scientists who consulted on the opinion. It sounded like an attempt to preempt conspiracy-mongering about Obamacare — this time blocking before it happens some kind of story about how Obama is intent on turning your precious little daughter into a depraved nymphomaniac and helping her get away with that. We just went through that with Perry and Gardasil.
I’d sooner see them fight it head-on and make a strong case for the actual merits, but we don’t always get what we want.
OzoneR
@Shinobi:
I may be old fashioned, but until you’re of legal age, your parents get to do this. That’s life.
Maybe what we term “legal age” should change.
jayackroyd
amanda marcotte has a really thoughtful analysis of why ostensibly prochoice, proteen people (idiotic) discomfort with teens having sex is behind this ruling.
the post includes a nice little game theory exercise that demonstrates why this is really bad policy.
http://bit.ly/vnwi2r
Studly Pantload, the emotionally unavailable unicorn
Yes, it was a lousy decision. And I’ll bet the administration makes sure Obama appears as far removed from Sibelious’ decision as a mob boss appears to be removed from a hit order.
That said, if I were a single-issues voter, I’d have had handy reasons to not elect or reelect FDR, Truman, Carter, and Clinton (or Johnson, but of course he bowed out when he saw the writing on the wall). But I’m not, so I go with the whole package, good and bad. It’s too important to me that we have actual adults in charge, even if I’ll disagree with some of what they do.
rb
What’s the problem with going through parents or doctors for this? I just don’t get it.
Well, it kinda sucks when your abuser is your dad. But hey, that never happens, amirite?
Yevgraf
@FlipYrWhig:
The science guys weren’t exactly in the loop on the consequences of malicious misuse.
Shinobi
@OzoneR: What if your “parents” is the person who raped you? What if your parents will want to punish you for being sexually active by making you raise a child? What if your parents mistakenly believe that PlanB is an abortificant and they are super pro life? What if you just are too afraid to talk to your parents until it is too late and then you have to get an abortion?
I have concerns about the overuse of drugs, but having used PlanB myself on multiple occasions, (covering about a decade) the resulting emotional bruhaha made me much less likely to ever choose it again. I would hope that a girl who had to use it even once would consider some long term bc solutions.
Another conversation we can have is the reluctance of men to take any responsibility at all for birth control. If you don’t want girls to need plan B, talk to boys about condoms. “Do I have too waaaaaaaaaaah.”
4tehlulz
Plan B should be available over the counter, like cold medicine.
Lolis
Not a great decision, but keep in mind Plan B is just that. Practically, it seems like many young women don’t even know this exists. I know a lot of women in their 30’s that don’t know about it. Secondly, many thirteen year old girls wouldn’t have the money to pay for it on their own. We should be making sure young women have access to free birth control all the time. I think the shots are especially good since it can be easy to forget to take a pill.
Steve
@Yevgraf: It’s odd to praise Obama for this “nuanced decision” when he says he had absolutely nothing to do with it.
jayackroyd
@Fargus:
First, [email protected]Brian R.
Marcotte:
Professor
Doug, would you have preferred if there was no age limit? Do you want the plan B pill to be available to every girl, say 10 to 13 year old girls? Do these girls even know the functioning of their bodies? I know Obama gets blamed for everything, but don’t you think, at times, common sense should prevail! I know it is called ‘ common sense’ but believe me, it is NOT common at all!
mk3872
A decision NOT to allow Big Pharma to sell this drug to girls under 17 over the counter is a “TERRIBLE THING” ??
REALLY ??
THIS is what you are upset about ??
I love the hypocrisy of LIBS! Big Pharma is EVIL!
Except for when they are pushing drugs that LIBS like! Too funny …
aliasofwestgate
There’s also the fact that 17 year olds need to go to a doctor to get an RX for conventional, daily birth control where Plan B is essentially a megadose of the same medication. As a pharmacy technician i can’t see the issue with having to go through a doctor, or at least a nurse at planned parenthood. Its not something i would want to use completely out of medical supervision. Even PP keeps up regular checkups when BC is used. I know this from personal experience!
It’s more common sense than political, to me. But don’t mind me, i’m just medical professional. Before you jump down my throat over it. Definite political overlay, but i would also say that the far right is being worn down. It won’t be too long until its fully available OTC. Just not right now, as much as we’d like it so.
But teh big thing? It’s STILL available OTC right now. You just need ID in order to purchase it–but it hasn’t been taken off the market, which is what the idiot bishops want.
Shinobi
@OzoneR: It is not the state’s job to help parents control their children. If your kids disagree with your stance on birth control or premarital sex, that isn’t the state’s fault. As long as the kids aren’t doing anything illegal, I think the state should protect them from long term consequences of actions that lets face it, everyone takes.
Teenagers are going to have premarital sex, do we create a generation of teenage mothers ? Or a generation of people who have kids when they are ready?
Chris
The issue is a logical one. There are already much more potentially dangerous drugs/supplements available OTC that people under 18 can purchase.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
17 y/o girls are minors, aren’t they?
I agree with Sebelius on this one. I realize that 17 isn’t that much different than 18 but the cut off has to be somewhere.
The overwhelming majority of 17 y/o girls still live with their parents/legal guardians and you don’t mess with other people’s children. When I was 17 my parents scheduled my doctors and dental appointments – I still lived in their house and ate their food. When I started supporting myself at 18 I was free to do whatever I wanted their because I was no longer a minor and their legal responsibility.
If minor teens feel they’re emotionally mature enough for sex than they need to be emotionally mature enough to tell their parent or guardian that they’re pregnant.
If a young girl can’t go to her own parents or guardian there is usually another responsible adult that can help guide them through their options and decisions. I remember in high school girls becoming pregnant and relying on a friends’ mother to help them through the decisions.
Mnemosyne
As I said in the previous thread, I’m disappointed, but not “OMG I REFUSE TO VOTE FOR THAT MAN!” disappointed. There are a whole lot of otherwise liberal people who freak the fuck out at the notion that their 15-year-old Precious L’il Snowflake might have dirty, dirty sex, so I understand the political calculation in making this decision, but it’s still disappointing.
Brachiator
Science can tell you whether Plan B is safe and effective. Science cannot tell you what the ethical or political decision should be.
The Republicans would outlaw Plan B for any woman without regard to age. A question about this should come up in the next debate.
And my favorite Herman Cain Twitter comment remains:
Cain: I have a Plan B.
That’s what she said!
Bullsmith
Although I concur that it’s better than electing Republicans, the shit sandwich remains distinctly lousy eating.
Soonergrunt
Any time a political appointee does anything, that decision or action is inherently political.
That doesn’t make it a bad decision. Even a decision with which you disagree may be a good decision.
I don’t have a problem with a go-slow approach on this, or any medical subject.
I’d love for all Americans to share my values, but they don’t. For some parents, the decision to put Plan B on the counter for anyone would’ve been a disaster. I don’t agree with them, but I don’t get to raise their children.
rb
@Yevgraf: Actually, I’m thinking that Plan B in the hands of your average 14 year old can be fairly disastrous. That is a potent hormone load – and if on shelves, could you see vindictive kids using it on pregnant relatives and school admins? I could see it.
Oh, for god’s sake. First of all it’s sold in single doses. It is extremely safe.
Second, there are things a HELL of a lot more dangerous sold to kids at the pharmacy, the grocery store, hell the sporting goods store, and no one says word one. This is sexual paranoia and paternalism all the way down.
Third, nothing is currently stopping ‘vindictive kids’ from stealing it and using it on ‘relatives and school admins,’ and yet strangely this appears not to be happening.
Do internet commenters need to get a life? I could see it.
Lolis
I just had a call at work about a 14 yo mentally retarded girl giving birth. She claims the father of the kid is 11. It doesn’t seem likely to me, but who knows? Anyway, the people who would most benefit from birth control and Plan B are the ones who would never use it. I don’t know why this is the case.
rb
Sigh. Moderation.
gaz
@Mike Goetz: Didn’t you guys used to believe in states rights or something?
On second thought, I’ll have to see how my state’s laws regarding teenage girls, doctor visits, and privacy are handled. Could be that my state might make OTC availability moot, because IIRC, a kid doesn’t have to get parental consent to get a doctor’s help here, in this case…
Mnemosyne
@4tehlulz:
It is available over the counter. It’s just age-restricted to 17 and older. Please don’t spread misinformation.
FlipYrWhig
@jayackroyd: I find Amanda to be WAY too “sex-positive” across the board and disagree with her tendency to find almost all pursuit of pleasure A Good Thing that must be zealously defended. That framing doesn’t persuade me, and she uses it a lot. But even as a somewhat straight-edge-adjacent misanthrope I come down in a similar place on this particular matter.
Mike Goetz
When did we offload all of our ethical and societal decisions on scientists? All the FDA said was that is was medically safe to sell it over the counter to minors. Were the scientists consulted on whether we ought to or not? How would they know?
rb
Do these girls even know the functioning of their bodies?
No, they don’t. Whining, paranoid busybodies make sure of that, too.
Soonergrunt
@rb: not anymore.
4tehlulz
@Mnemosyne: Right, which is why I have to show ID to the pharmacist to get cold medicine that is behind the counter.
I’m a bit older than 17.
bemused
I’m pretty fed up with “liberals’ who are so disappointed that Obama isn’t granting all their wishes, they won’t vote for him. Are they out of their minds? Republicans have never been more open about what they plan to do to the 99% if they get the presidency and the entire legislature. It’s astonishing how upfront and blase they are about their intentions. What scares the daylights out of me and should scare everyone is what else is on their hit list they haven’t revealed.
Shinobi
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: Right because everyone has sex exactly when they are emotionally mature for it. No one every gets pressured, especially not young women who are trained to be sex objects practically from birth. And certainly no one gets assaulted, and if they are assaulted they should press charges because no one will acuse them of “asking for it” or making things up.
Having been a 17 year old girl, they should hand this shit out at school, along with condoms and a copy of Our Bodies ourselves.
Mnemosyne
@rb:
Yeah, pretty much the worst that could happen if someone slipped you a mickey of Plan B is that it would make you nauseous, or possibly even throw up.
rb
When I was 17 my parents scheduled my doctors and dental appointments
A standard we should surely enforce.
Professor
@PhoenixRising: I agree with you. Please have conversation with your kids and explain the ‘facts of life’ with them. They may not listen to you always, but they would not be afraid to come to you when they need help. Don’t forget we’ve all been teenagers before!
TheMightyTrowel
@Yevgraf: Stop being an uniformed asshole. EBC is just that: Emergency BIRTH CONTROL. It’s about equal to three or four of teh daily birth control pills in one box. It costs $50-$60 for one pill and it DOES NOT CAUSE ABORTIONS. It is simply a very large dose of the same birth control that women around the world take daily. At worse it will make you vomit. I’ve taken it with no side effects whatsoever. At $50-60 NO ONE will be “abusing” it or “using it maliciously” so fuck you and fuck your strawman arguments.
Mnemosyne
@4tehlulz:
I’m confused what your problem is. You said it should be available over the counter like cold medicine, and I pointed out that it is. If your problem is that you have to ask the pharmacist for your cold medicine, that’s kind of a different issue.
Maude
@4tehlulz:
Not all OTC cold medicine is allowed to be sold to minors. There are some that trigger an app on the register that wants age verification. Most people don’t know about this.
It sure was new to me until I worked drug retail for a couple of weeks.
I no longer work in it and I do indeed understand the need for unions.
Mike Goetz
@gaz:
Oh, go jump in a lake. You don’t need to be conservative to see this as a complex issue. There are a lot of liberals who will agree with this decision.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@rb: I’m more inclined to school administrators being able to hand out handguns to any teen that might be dealing with an abusive parent. It would work out far better than taking a pill every once in a while.
Cris (without an H)
like the pepper spray cop?
Amir Khalid
President Obama said he supported Sibelius’ decision, rather than that he agreed with it. Which leaves open the question of whether he does indeed concur. For all the public knows, maybe he did disagree with her, but chose to express his disagreement in private rather than publicly undermine one of his own people.
Other commenters have noted that disagreeing with Obama’s decision on this point or that doesn’t necessarily rise to the level of losing confidence in his presidency. Well, the same goes between Obama and Sibelius.
As her boss and the Administration chief executive, he should publicly support her authority to decide matters within her purview; otherwise, he’s effectively saying that he has lost confidence in her. That could lead to her resignation, and Obama probably doesn’t fancy trying to get a new HHS secretary confirmed with the current climate in the Senate.
R Johnston
Actually, when science tells you that Plan B is safe and effective for over-the-counter use it’s also telling you precisely that the ethical and moral thing to do is make it available for over-the-counter use. Squeemishness about teenagers having sex isn’t a moral or ethical issue until you foist your squeemishness off on teenagers and decide that your squeemishness justifies ruining their health. The moral and ethical problems then are yours and do not reside with teenagers’ or with those who would make Plan B available OTC.
The decision to not make a safe, effective drug that is, in certain circumstances critical to maintaining good health and that, in those circumstances, is critical to obtain as quickly as possible, available over the counter just because adults feel icky about teenage sex is a profoundly immoral and unethical decision.
Soonergrunt
@4tehlulz: Depending on the type of cold medicine, you have to show your ID because of what the cold medicine can be turned into (and they want to track you to see if you buy 50 boxes) and not your age.
@TheMightyTrowel: Don’t hold back. Tell him how your REALLY feel.
Cris (without an H)
“A conservative is a liberal who had kids.”
mk3872
@Mnemosyne: Prove that it’s politics and not safety.
Since when did we want and admin that just gives in to Big Pharma and pushed more pills OTC?
rb
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): This suggests a both/and solution rather than either/or.
But only if we’re not obsessed with controlling women and sex.
gaz
@Mike Goetz: I’ll jump in a lake right after you do. It was light snark. Quit yer blubbering.
rb
@R Johnston: Squeemishness about teenagers having sex isn’t a moral or ethical issue until you foist your squeemishness off on teenagers and decide that your squeemishness justifies ruining their health.
Boom. Argument over.
bin Lurkin'
Most child rape is committed by a family member or a friend of the family, a young girl made pregnant in such a manner is unlikely to tell anyone of it and unlikely to be believed if they do tell.
Now we wish to make sure that there is nothing young girls can possibly do on their own to avoid pregnancy if they are raped.
http://www.yellodyno.com/html/rape_stats.html
CA Doc
Just FYI, in many states cold medicine (Sudafed) is sold behind the counter (you don’t need a prescription but you have to ask for it) and you may need to show ID. And some states are making it prescription only, to slow down meth production. Plan B ought to be on the shelf for girls under 17, but hey, boys, the condoms have no age restriction.
The Moar You Know
I think this has nothing to do with science, or Republicans, or anything other than the fact that the President has two teenage girls and if I had two teenage girls, I’d want to know if they’re taking a fairly heavy-duty hormonal drug. Mostly so I could arrange to be out of the house on a business trip while they’re experiencing the mega-period from hell.
mk3872
For F’s sake. When is it that EVERY decision that does not appease LIBS become a “CAVE” or “COWARDICE”, yes I noticed your cowardice post tag.
How about a liberal faux-rage tag for this one ???
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@TheMightyTrowel: Yes, women do. As Yevgraf pointed out, what about a 14 year old.
Was the any point at all to your tone, other than to end conversing?
rb
@bin Lurkin’: Most child rape is committed by a family member or a friend of the family
Please do not pollute this conversation with facts and rationality. We’d much rather freak out about hordes of teens rioting in the street after maliciously abusing plan b.
FlipYrWhig
No matter how squeamish you might be about your underage daughter (or, for that matter, son) having sex, IMHO it’s still better to have an emergency option like this to deal quickly with their, well, fuck-ups than to make them wait when the whole thing is time-sensitive.
J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford
Am I the only one who can imagine the shitstorm that would happen if a 16 y/o girl died from complications due to using the pill and her parents were not notified?
(Btw, I worked in pre-clinical and clinical research for 10 years at GD Searle and Pfizer, so don’t give me the “it’s almost 100% safe!” crap.)
Soonergrunt
@Amir Khalid: Very perceptive.
Just as a personal example of this, Soldiers are taught in leadership school to support their subordinate leaders and only question or them or disagree with them behind closed doors unless it’s an immediate-danger issue. People have to believe that the bosses are unified in the decision, even in those times when they know for a fact that the bosses disagree.
Whether Obama agrees with the specific decision or not, he says that he supports his HHS Secretary. That’s what competent leaders do and it is so tremendously different than the last guy, who would’ve had his political advisers in the White House make this decision, and it would’ve been announced on Friday afternoon.
mk3872
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: Amen. When did Big Pharma pushing more pills on teenagers become something that LIBS thing is a good idea ??
FlipYrWhig
@CA Doc:
I don’t remember there ever being a moral panic about that, either. No “Oh dear lord my sweet little boy could be having freaky monkey sex and getting away with it!”
The Other Bob
If it was politically motivated, which seems to be the conventional BS line, it is pretty bad politics. Obama would gain NOTHING from this decision.
Further, if one READS the HHS decision, it is based purely on the application, the proposed guidelines for use and the ability of the user to interpret them. It had nothing to do with the ability of parents to have a role in the decision, which would really be the poltical factor.
Last, it seems to me that Teva could resubmit an application. The decison does not rule out the approval of this drug for OTC use in the future.
rb
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: Am I the only one who can imagine the shitstorm that would happen if a 16 y/o girl died from complications due to using the pill and her parents were not notified?
Yes, we wouldn’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud. Better outlaw freedom, just to be sure.
srv
You can still get coat hangers at Walgreens w/o an ID, so that should satisfy their needs.
bin Lurkin'
@Cris (without an H):
I not only have kids, I have grandkids and I think this is an ignorant and politically motivated decision.
TooManyJens
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford:
OK, but realistically, we’re talking about the equivalent of 3 or 4 birth control pills taken once, not on an ongoing basis. How dangerous could that be?
When my daughter was about 1 she had croup. We took her to the doctor and she got a steroid injection that cleared up her breathing immediately. It would be nuts for her to have gotten steroids on an ongoing basis, but for a one-time use? No problem.
Sebastian Dangerfield
@OzoneR: There’s a “legal age” for sex? News to me.
Mnemosyne
@mk3872:
There are multiple studies that have been done over the past decade showing that there’s no scientific reason to restrict Plan B to prescription only. The Bush administration’s decision to not make it available OTC was political, and so is this one to age-restrict it.
Shinobi
@The Moar You Know: Did that happen to you? I had no change in my monthly cycle when I used it.
I did have a few crying jags the week after, but that could be related to other issues as well.
I’m sure that everyone who has teenage girls WANTS to think that their kids can tell them or would tell them. But the truth is, I am nearly 30, and I still don’t talk to my parents about sex, AT ALL. Not all parents are the kind of parents you can talk to about this stuff.
Brachiator
@R Johnston:
This is not true at all.
Hell, I’m not sure that teenagers can buy condoms in every state.
I am not squeamish about teenagers having sex. Nor was I squeamish when I was a teenager having sex.
For now, I guess teens will have to get Plan B the same way they get alcohol. Stand outside the store and ask an adult to buy it for them. Yeah, I’m being snarky here.
The decision here is political and ethical. When you have dope parents avoiding vaccinations because they are irredeemably stupid, when you have an active anti rational thought and anti science movement rolling throughout the country, and when you have anti abortion people who would ban Plan B outright, it is understandable that the White House and health agencies would be cautious here.
4tehlulz
@Mnemosyne: My point is that the OTC rules are inconsistent and nonsensical.
Yes, cold medicine can be turned into meth, but if I take a little too much Tylenol, an OTC drug, I ruin my liver and I can get all that I want. Plan B is age limited, but an anorexic teenager can buy all the laxatives she wants.
First, can we decide whether teenagers should be making medical decisions? That might clarify things a bit.
Mnemosyne
@Sebastian Dangerfield:
Dude, back away from that 13-year-old RIGHT NOW! Yes, there is such a thing as an age of consent, aka a legal age for sex.
I hope we have caught you in time.
Three-nineteen
@Brian R.: Then the girls will just have to make sure that the guy they’re having sex with is 18, so he can get it for them.
Girls who need to use Plan B will most likely be able to have other people get it for them, like their of-age girlfriends at school.
One fun thing about this law is that women who buy Plan B will now have to show ID to purchase, which means they have to show their name to whoever is working the cash register. No anonymity – cashiers with good memories can write down your name and forward it to whomever they choose. Yay!
gaz
@srv: Aren’t they all plastic now?
Wouldn’t that be rather awkward, and possibly *more* dangerous than the old standby?
/gutter snark
Shinobi
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: Do you have any evidence of women who have died from using this pill?
mk3872
@Mnemosyne: Oh, I see. That proves it has nothing to do with safety for girls under 17? Right …
HHS is supposed to look out for the country’s health. That’s what they do.
To disallow BIG PHARMA from just rolling an admin to make their pills more generally available is NOT a bad thing in my book.
TheMightyTrowel
@Soonergrunt: Withering disdain is too kind for that sort of trollishness. Ignorantly/willfully conflating pregnancy termination and prevention in order to justify limiting access to the latter is not only scientifically inaccurate, it is fundamentally anti-contraception and, concomitantly, anti-woman. As a woman (and one on birth control and who has used ECB when necessary) I take that sort of comment personally. Someone else is deploying their ignorance/morality to limit my ability to control my body and my sexuality, and, in this case, to limit younger women than me to control their bodies and plan for their futures.
rb
@TooManyJens: How dangerous could that be?
It isn’t. Not ideal, but less dangerous than any number of meds taken by kids routinely, to say nothing of the pathogens and physical hazards they navigate every day.
The safety excuse is just that.
Yevgraf
@Steve:
Who picked Sebelius?
Origuy
OT, but I got a video ad on this page from biblemesh.com that autoplayed with very loud music. Fortunately, I keep headphones plugged in at work. Unfortunately, I was wearing them at the time.
desraye
And this is why the decision was not politcally motivated.
Shinobi
@FlipYrWhig: Right, and unfortunately the unwillingness to wear condoms ALSO has no age restriction.
TheMightyTrowel
@Belafon (formerly anonevent): I’ve been on the pill since I was 13.
Ripley
Plan B pills are available to any kid in a public school, ask around. $5 to $10 a pop, just like dad’s Viagra and mom’s Xanax (a bit more for Uncle Johnny’s Oxycontin). Most kids know a kid who knows the kid who has them.
Alternatively, canadian-pharmacy-for-pakistani-made-drugs-of-any-kind.com and its hundreds of competitor sites has competitive prices and a wide-open credit card acceptance policy, with no need for those pesky prescriptions.
Call them free-market solutions, to be snarky about it. More seriously, legitimizing non-prescription Plan B through HHS approval seems more a need for the chattering classes (self included, no question) than for kids in need.
FlipYrWhig
@The Other Bob:
I don’t get this reaction. What he gets is the absence of outcry that he’d get from the opposite decision. Run it through the Fox-i-fier and you get weeks worth of “Obama encouraging sexual experimentation in underage girls?” Now, you don’t. You get an outcry from the reproductive-rights community, which is much smaller. Politically, IMHO, you gain by losing less.
I would prefer to take the cudgels to the premise itself, but that doesn’t mean that the perhaps cynical decision isn’t a net gain in terms of pure politics — when weighed against the shitstorm that the alternative would have whipped up.
RP
What a stupid post. Can’t you disagree with the decision without being “profoundly depressed” by it and thinking it’s an example of “democratic cowardice”?
I don’t agree with the decision, but all he did was maintain the status quo. He didn’t invade Iran. Get some f**king perspective.
God, I am so sick of the whining on the left.
FlipYrWhig
@Three-nineteen:
Was this not the case before? How can it be restricted to 17 and up, as (I understand) it is now, without involving a store employee checking ID?
bin Lurkin'
@desraye: Well it clearly wasn’t science that informed the decision and you have now indicated it wasn’t political.
That doesn’t leave too many choices as to the motivation for this decision.
Jenny
This is silly.
Really, if you’re “profoundly depressed by it” your life is way too easy.
mk3872
@RP: What I find interesting that stopping BIG PHARMA from pushing another pill on teenagers OTC is considered “cowardice”.
Lefties just keep searching out new ways to hate Obama.
NobodySpecial
At some point, you’d expect this administration to do something without worrying about GOP boogeymen or their Reagan Democrat enablers, none of whom will vote for the black guy ever in their lives again.
gaz
@RP: You’re right. Your post was pretty stupid.
Way to read two or three people as not only representative of all the commenters here, but as representative of the left in general.
Don’t you realize how stupid that makes you sound? If not, consider this your first lesson in not being a complete moron. This one’s on the house.
Three-nineteen
@J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford: Unless the law has changed since I was a teenager, a 16 year old girl can definitely get the pill without her parents knowing. When I was 16, I went straight to Planned Parenthood, did not pass go, did not collect $200, did not tell my parents or my regular doctor (I don’t remember if I had to tell them who my regular doctor was, maybe I did and they sent him the information).
You probably meant something about over the counter, but you will have to clarify.
Shinobi
@mk3872: Yeah BIG PHARMA is terrible for keeping young girls from getting pregnant. Those fucks, we need more young mothers!
mk3872
@Jenny: +1
Xboxershorts
I am troubled by the phrasing of the headlines we KEEP seeing in major media blaming Obama for decisions made by others or even Congress…I see the middle finger of Frank Luntz in everything.
Call me paranoid, but the GoP really does control the most efficient, largest, partisan message machine outside of Communist China…
Obama has done plenty to criticize. But just like last week’s outrage dujour of Horses slaughtered for food, it’s a bit scene in the wider background of the fight for power in this country.
You are being played. Played by an extremely intelligent, well funded and devious adversary who controls a major messaging machine that has 3 decades of experience in manipulating minds in search of votes. All they care about is power. And they lie, cheat and steal regularly to acquire it.
And amplifying this story with “just the right phrasing” and all of a sudden the liberal core hates him again. Just like last week’s bullshit story about a horse slaughter law that was pushed by a conservative horse breeder constituency, passed by a republican house and a split senate and not a single headline held any republicans to account for that law. Instead..EVERY SINGLE HEADLINE was “Obama authorizes horse slaughter”…and THAT is patently and provably false.
But every singlele liberal source in my news feed ran with that headline and HATED Obama for it….Why do you think THAT was the persistent headline? ……..
We’re being played.
wenchacha
I haven’t followed the science on Plan B very closely. I know that I don’t define it as an “abortion drug.” The fact that it deters implantation is fine with me.
Here’s the trickier part: birth control pills are not for every woman. A dose of hormones can be a big deal. I don’t know how much a single dose costs, either. Could a 13 yr old girl get, say, three doses and take them all at once, “just to be sure?” What would happen if that were the case?
I don’t think teen girls are dumb, but I think lots of teens make impulsive mistakes. I acknowledge that we cannot protect them all. What I want to know is what is the upper limit of safety as far as dosage goes with plan B? What is the risk for stroke or blood clotting, because the Pill can increase those risks for some women. My daughter’s doc wouldn’t allow her to go on the pill if she smoked, because of higher health risks for women who smoke.
If I knew that the risk for stroke or other serious life-threatening illness was negligible, even with multiple doses, I would be okay with having it easily available for any age. In my head, I can see the headlines if just one young girl was seriously harmed or died as a result of taking one dose of Plan B. Forget that pregnancy and childbirth can also result in injury and death; Plan B would be branded as the liberal genocide pill.
If we could count on all schools to have a licensed RN in the building at all times, I’d be fine with a nurse dispensing Plan B. I think Plan B should be discussed in all health classes, as well as other methods of birth control, and abortion. Dreaming, I know.
The Other Bob
@FlipYrWhig:
Net gain is still zero. If you have not noticed, Fox will still likely say Obama is encouraging sexual this, that or the other thing with boys, girls, dogs cats and anything else Fox makes up. Did you see the Rick Perry ad?
Read the decision, it is not a hardline position.
FlipYrWhig
@NobodySpecial: Perhaps declaring emphatically that LGBT rights will henceforth be a factor in foreign policy. Nah, that’d never happen.
mk3872
@Shinobi: Uhhh … OK. But don’t you think there already ARE enough birth control options on the market today ??
mk3872
Apparently, the “angry left” needed something to shit on Obama about because he’s been too kind to them lately.
aliasofwestgate
@Three-nineteen:
The ID showing has been default since it was made OTC 2 years ago. It would help if you would look these things up. It’s pretty much anonymous as you have to enter in the age only for it. No DL number or otherwise. If a pharmacy worker is ignorant enough to totally violate HIPAA and tell on that person buying it, or gossip about it to outside people then they deserve to lose their job. There are privacy regulations for a REASON.
I’m a pharmacy tech, i have dispensed Plan B regularly OTC the last 2 years. If i told anyone about one of those people or their names, it would be a huge violation.
The Moar You Know
@Shinobi: Being male, I think that me taking Plan B would have some entertaining and quite possibly hilarious effects on me. I’m going to avoid taking it as my main concern is that I’m working hard on not developing man-tits and don’t want to give nature any help in that direction.
But I’ve had a couple of girlfriends who have used it, and yeah, the mega-period is what happened.
TooManyJens
@wenchacha:
Note: this fact is not actually a fact.
Mechanism of action: How do levonorgestrel-only contraceptive pills (LNG ECPs) prevent pregnancy?
Shinobi
@mk3872: Not if you are sexually assaulted, or the condom breaks, or you forget a pill. Before EC your option was abortion which is dangerous an expensive. (And also gives money to OMG BIG PHARMA) Now we have this thing that can prevent an abortion from being needed, and we want to keep it from people?
lamh35
@rb:
Alot of people are saying what about in cases of sexual abuse. Will having access to Plan B stop the actual sexual abuse? Probably not, the abuse will continue and may lead to what more situations where Plan B is needed? Aren’t there requirements in much of the medical field that police be notified in cases of young girls being pregnant or having signs of sexual activity and possible conducting a prelim investigation to determine if any abuse occurred?
In theory, wouldn’t at least requiring the young girl to be “counseled” by a PharmD or some adult who can if the situation warrants, i.e. 10, 11, 12 or whatever the legal requirement is to report possible sex abuse of a minor be a better solution
Shinobi
@The Moar You Know: Ah, well I don’t think that is a universal given. I’ve used it on multiple occasions and never had that.
singfoom
I like the strawman you set up there Doug. Good example. I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you that being disappointed in this decision doesn’t mean that you automatically want Republicans to win in 2013.
Is there someone around here who thinks that that is a good outcome? Why the hell do we keep regurgitating the same setups for a Obama-Bot vs. Firebagger debate.
Then no one can see the distinction between criticizing specific policies of the administration and just being a Obama Hater, regardless of the truth of that.
But hey, let’s have another flamewar between critics and non-critics. Then those who criticize the administration can be called “ratfuckers” for posting a different opinion.
I’m all for harm reduction and I think it would be better if this wasn’t age restricted. Sad to see the administration (Sebelius specifically) not following science. Doesn’t change my voting plans in the slightest.
Quaker in a Basement
At $50 a dose, Plan B is going to be a behind-the-counter product anyway. I don’t think pharmacies are going to stock ’em on a peg next to the Clearasil. So the “I have to ask the pharmacist for it” argument is moot.
srv
@gaz:
One sale now.
Sebastian Dangerfield
@Mnemosyne: Yeah, and age of consent laws vary wildly from state to state. My comment was in response to a statement that Plan B should not be available until one is of “legal age.” It’s not so simple. So, in New York, where a 16-year-old can legally give consent, she still cannot buy Plan B without a prescription.
No need to be a shithead.
Shinobi
@lamh35: I think typically young women who are being abused are probably not getting the best medical care.
FlipYrWhig
@The Other Bob: I fully expect that–for better or for worse–this will disappear from the political consciousness in, like, 72 hours, except among people who are activists on the issue.
But a decision to allow precious underage girls to get it on then abort the even more precious baby — which is how it would be spun by the Noise Machine — would be huge hairy deal that drove all the Republican campaigns and would be folded into concerns about the dire effects of “Obamacare” for months if not years.
R Johnston
Plan B is exceedingly unlikely to kill anyone, even if it’s not necessarily 100% safe. Nothing is 100% safe.
Plan B is, of course, by the least generous estimates to its safety, several orders of magnitude safer than an unplanned pregnancy in a teenage girl, especially one who can’t talk about sex with her parents beforehand and get their permission to have Plan B available ahead of time just in case.
Three-nineteen
@FlipYrWhig: I’m not sure how it is available now – I haven’t kept up with this issue. My point is, without the age restriction you could go buy it with cash and walk out – you know, like every other over-the-counter drug (tobacco and alcohol excluded, which are not used for medical purposes). With the age retriction, wackos have a much better chance of finding out who you are.
mk3872
@Shinobi: Sheesh, enough with the violent imagery! Just get a doctor to prescribe then, genius!
Soonergrunt
@mk3872: Don’t EVER discount that possibility.
Triassic Sands
Next year, I’ll vote for Obama without question; but also without any pleasure at all. I would love to have a viable alternative, but this is the United States where good political choices rarely exist.
jayackroyd
@FlipYrWhig:
Did you read the post? Whether you agree with her or not, is her explanation of what’s going on here anything less than clear and complete? Do you think her calculus of what a 16 year old will do in the OTC Plan B state vs the No OTC Plan B state is incorrect? Do you think the bit I posted here is incorrect–that a prevailing social attitude among adults is that kids should be virgins until they are adults (whatever that means).
BTW, this thread is an awesome illustration of exactly what she is saying.
Xboxershorts
@singfoom:
I had a long drawn out FB fight with people I agree almost unanimously with on most every single policy issue.
They have publicly withdrawn support of Obama and have pledged to vote 3rd party over this.
Do not underestimate the outrage this headline engenders.
aliasofwestgate
@Shinobi: It is NOT. I repeat it is NOT being kept from people. It’s still available OTC for purchase, with an ID check. Just like purchasing sudafed OTC. The regulation that one under 17 has to get a doctor’s RX is still i place and is not being removed is all that’s being said.
*tears hair out* Why is this so hard to understand? I would be frothing at the mouth if it was removed from the OTC option entirely. This? Doesn’t warrant the freakout.
mk3872
@Xboxershorts: I guess this proves that there are low-information single-issue voters on both sides of our political divide, eh?
The Moar You Know
@mk3872: Call me when they get that “pill for men” thing down. Then maybe they can figure out something for women that doesn’t involve increased cardiovascular risk (Pill, Norplant, anything hormonal) or crippling infection (IUD).
Not nearly enough options.
Xboxershorts
@aliasofwestgate:
It’s the headline that causes the freakout.
I blame Frank Luntz
Shinobi
@mk3872: What if you can’t get in to see your doctor within 72 hours? What if it is memorial day? What if your doc is busy? What if you are 15 and can’t get a ride? Pregnancy for you!
(Also, It’s not imagery, it’s real shit that happens to real girls every fucking day.)
gaz
@srv: I stand corrected.
Was this part of the GOP women’s health initiative?
The invisible hand at work, providing moral, traditional, and time tested family planning options to women everywhere. With help from jebus.
It works… Who knew?
I’ll be voting santorum in 2012 =P
Three-nineteen
@aliasofwestgate: Why do people have to show ID if it’s over the counter? If there was no age restriction, would you still need to show ID?
Snowball
@The Other Bob:
Everybody out there is ridiculing Perry’s ad. Heck, even his own advisor has been quoted as being against the ad.
Any rational person knows that Perry was wrong. And on this issue, why give them ammunition?
TheMightyTrowel
@The Moar You Know: The IUD hasn’t been dangerous for decades. Stop with the disinformation.
Xboxershorts
@mk3872: Sadly, yes.
The real shame is that Google is so easy to use.
srv
@Ripley:
Your saying kids can get it cheaper than at Walgreens? Would seem there would be a premium on it.
Shinobi
@aliasofwestgate: Sorry I should have been more specific. I know it is OTC. What I Really meant was:
Now we want to keep this great pill from a small subset of young women because we don’t think they are really old enough to be doing the thing that would lead them to need this pill. They are doing it anyway, but we would like them to just get pregnant since what they are doing makes us uncomfortable.
It DOES bother me because now we are keeping this pill from a small subset of the population who might need it for no medical reason whatsoever. If there were some danger, I would get it, but all there is is moralizing and paternalism.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@TheMightyTrowel: And I know some girls who have been on it since before then. Was there a lot of testing of this pill on those under 18 to see what kind of side effects there are? Medicine is one of those things where you can’t just keep going up in size without getting side effects that didn’t occur in small doses.
As for the decision, I’ll throw out an anecdote related to medicine – I’m a male, so I cannot talk about bcps. When I was a kid, my allergies were acting up badly, so I took one of my mother’s allergy pills, which she had given me before. When it didn’t seem to be working, I took another. About two hours later I was going through the symptoms of an overdose. Imagine panicked teenagers driving first to one pharmacy to get one dose, and then going to another store to get a second one.
Xboxershorts
@Shinobi: I read the letter Sebelius wrote to the FDA and I have come to the conclusion she left the door open for re-review as long as the manufacturer makes improvements to labeling and instructions.
So, lets get behind a rewording of the instructions…
gaz
@TheMightyTrowel: The IUD has risks, but can be the most viable option for somebody who has other issues with hormone based birth control.
As always, talk to a decent doctor.
(Adding, that my only concern in all this is that a minor can get plan B without parental consent in my state, whether or not it’s OTC – so far, that still appears to be the case – and is a *good* thing as far as I am concerned)…
srv
@Xboxershorts: Straw that broke the camel’s back.
These old farts keep projecting their nuanced pragmatism on those teens and 20-somethings and thinking this will blow over.
Jenny
The other day, Elizabeth Warren was asked if she favored decriminalizing marijuana — she said “no”.
I’m shocked! I’m shocked!
A politician, even a populist lion in a deep blue state, favoring politics over science.
Guess what — not everyone has a progressive mind with a wall stacked with books with their radios tuned into NPR.
Some people can’t actually wrap their heads around a 12 year old girl buying pot and a morning after pill at the corner 7-eleven.
Elizabeth Warren knows that. Too bad bloggers aren’t as smart as her.
aliasofwestgate
@Three-nineteen: Because that was how the FDA decided it would be regulated as an OTC. I’ve found that those with the right support system and underage generally get around it. (IE parents have bought for daughters and older friends as well). At 50$ just for a single unit dose pack, and the warnings needed to be given while dispensing it? I’d say the ID at teh pharmacy is a needed caution.
This isn’t something i’d put beside teh condoms to be plucked off the shelves.
FlipYrWhig
@jayackroyd: Did you read that I damn well agree that it should be available? Or were you just itching for a fight?
Yes, I think emergency contraception should be available over the counter as a means of dealing with emergency fuckups. No, I do not think that teenage sex should be viewed as something on a spectrum of exciting adult possibilities. And I do not think very many people would be persuaded by that framing of the argument, because the ones who buy it… don’t need convincing. Amanda makes a lot of arguments about pleasure, and I don’t buy the argument, while I very often buy the stance she has derived from an argument I would never use.
TheMightyTrowel
@gaz: Over here in Yurp, doctors pretty much tell all women over 25 that the IUD/IUS is the safest and most effective form of contraception. Easily 50% of my female friends (incl myself as of next tues) have a ‘coil’ and haven’t taken hormonal birth control in years.
srv
@gaz:
Why hasn’t some wingnut submitted a bill banning wire hangers? That has so much win in it.
Menzies
@FlipYrWhig:
This is my view of things. I think her piece has a gigantic faulty assumption that you must necessarily have been sexually active when you were a teenager, and that if you weren’t, it was because you didn’t have a choice in the matter.
Which means that technically, as someone who was not sexually active in his teenage years, I wouldn’t be a hypocrite to think teenage sexuality is a bad thing. Luckily, I don’t anyway.
I tend to think stupid teenage behavior should have direct consequences, but pregnancy and parenthood is way too heavy a cross to bear, and it hurts another person in the child. This was a somewhat disappointing decision, but like others have said, it doesn’t make me want to put a Republican in the White House.
aliasofwestgate
@Shinobi: The regulation is the same. It hasn’t been tightened. How is that restricting it further?
All this means is that it will take a bit longer to get it fully OTC without age restrictions. So we wait. It doesn’t mean its impossible.
I’ll also ask you this. Can you get ordinary birth control OTC outside of planned parenthood or a prescription? At ANY age? Just stop and think for a minute before you lay into me about restricting access.
Xboxershorts
@srv: How does this break the camel’s back?
Get with the manufacturer and ask them to rewrite using plain language. Take Away the excuse…
srv
@Xboxershorts: And that worked with how many of your FB friends?
mk3872
@Shinobi: You might want to find a doctor who is on-call or has more than 1 doc per practice, pal!
mk3872
Just make all drugs OTC and legal for anyone! Yeah! Big Pharma rules!
Aren’t there better things to be outrage about ??
Xboxershorts
@srv: People don’t like being told they’ve been skull fucked.
Do you like hearing that you’ve been skull fucked?
gaz
@TheMightyTrowel: Sounds like you have shitty doctors in your area.
We have pretty good health care in our state – and at least in my particular area, we have a good deal of thoughtful and gifted medical professionals who actually talk to their patients about the options available.
We also have a REALLY great non-profit agency in our area that I think could teach the planned parenthood outfit here a thing or two… so I guess my community is lucky that way I suppose.
Emma
@Xboxershorts: Not only are we being played, we know we’re being played, and we still fall for it, because moral outrage is such delicious dessert — better than chocolate-covered strawberries or butter pecan ice cream.
FuzzyWuzzy
False choice on this one. What is the difference between getting conservative policies from Brand R and getting conservative policies from Brand D?
We are getting two prongs of the same fork. A tyrant is a tyrant no matter the brand identity. Given the choice of death by bongo bongo, or just taking the bongo bongo, then it is bongo bongo, but I’d rather have the choice of cake or death.
ira-NY
Why shouldn’t this decision be politically informed?
This isn’t simply a new pill for high blood pressure. It is a pill that impacts societal norms. As such, science is not the sole measure as to whether it should be sold over the counter to an 11 year old.
bin Lurkin'
@Jenny: Only about 39% of the county can wrap their minds around evolution.
Does that mean evolution should not be taught in the schools?
http://www.gallup.com/poll/114544/darwin-birthday-believe-evolution.aspx
kc
Fuck, that’s what I think. FUCK.
gaz
@srv: I always thought they supported the wire hangers. Every social policy proposal they’ve pushed since time immemorial supports the wire coat-hanger industry. I guess I just figured they were a huge donor to the GOP or something…
Now you’ve gone at got me all confused.. =/
Shinobi
@aliasofwestgate:
It was one thing to restrict access while we waited for health and safety results, I disagree with overruling those results for political reasons. We are restricting access beyond what health and safety demands at this point, which I disagree with.
RE Birth control:
1. They use birth control as a cookie to make you come in and get your annual pap smear, because otherwise no one would do it.
2. It is also a long term daily use medication that can have complications and so should be supervised by a doctor. It often takes several tries for a woman to find a birth control option that works for her for whatever reason. (For instance, generic brands often give me crippling social anxiety. The name brands are fine. I have other friends with more biological issues with certain brands.) I would not want to be on BC without the supervision of a doctor, because it can be more complicated to use.
(Also, do you have an example of a pill that you have to take every single day in order for it to be effective that is OTC? I feel like those are typically prescriptions as a rule.)
Emergency contraception is for use in emergencies. It is 2 pills, it is easy to use and is not a long term medication.
Emergencies, sadly, are not things you can plan for, or necessarily prevent regardless of age. So I think that regardless of age women should be able to control their likelihood of pregnancy in an emergency situation.
Yes, we can wait longer, but we shouldn’t have to if there is no medical reason to. While we wait teenage girls are having babies, or abortions that could have been avoided.
Three-nineteen
@aliasofwestgate: In my opinion, there is no reason you have to show a pharmacist your ID to get an over the counter drug. I can see that you would need to talk to a pharmacist about it if it needs specialized instructions, but I don’t see why he has to know your name (this of course is if there was no age restriction). For heaven’s sake, you don’t have to show ID to get prescription medication if you give them the correct address.
Sorry about not realizing it is available over the counter now. I actually thought that you needed a prescription and this new ruling eased that restriction. Still, the ID requirement is stupid and it’s stupid for the Obama administration to require the age restriction.
Shinobi
@mk3872: Yeah because every 15 year old girl gets to pick and choose her OBGYN based on convenience. (If she even has one.)
Emergency contraception is for EMERGENCIES. It says it right there in the title.
(Actually the BEST day was when I discovered I could get EC ONLINE from Planned parenthood, this was before it was OTC. But that was not true then in every state.)
Emma
@Xboxershorts: Well, when they get a Supreme Court controlled by Republicans, and Roe v. Wade is struck down, and doctors prosecuted criminally for carrying out medically-necessary abortions, I’m sure they will be totally outraged about it too.
If it weren’t because the innocent will be crushed along with the ignorant, it would be a marvelous thing to sit back and let it happen.
Xboxershorts
@Emma: Here’s the headline at the known liberal/progressive news aggregator Raw Story:
“Obama backs restrictions on morning-after pill”
And it’s bullshit. COMPLETE BULLSHIT….
This was Sebelius, not the president. His words actually were that he supported his secretary. Not that he supported keeping usable medication away from 11 year old girls, which he never said…
It’s the phrasing of the fucking headline that drives the outrage and it’s right out of the Lee Atwater-Frank Luntz playbook for controlling the message.
It’s a skull fuck intended to drive the liberal base away from voting for Obama.
In THIS election…a vote for 3rd party is a vote for a republican.
WAKE UP…we are being played.
Mnemosyne
BTW, here’s what Sebelius actually said:
So, while we can speculate all day long about why they “really” did it, Sebelius says it was specifically because they felt the instructions were not sufficiently clear for under 17, and the manufacturer is being asked to re-submit the labeling.
I withdraw my freakout unless someone can demonstrate for me that the proposed packaging was actually written at a fourth-grade level and this was a bogus objection by Sebelius.
srv
@Xboxershorts: Obummer does it all the time to us, but I still try to defend him. I guess I would have been fond of the last liberal president, Nixon.
FlipYrWhig
@Menzies: I don’t think I’d want to use the word “consequences” myself. I just know that I’m not “sex-positive” insofar as I would prefer, in an ideal world, that _everyone_ should have a high bar before having sex with any partner — because it’s serious, not casual. So sex-positive arguments don’t work on me, irrespective of the ages of anyone involved. I don’t think your view about sexual freedom and sensual pleasures generally is a particularly reliable index to your views on the left-right spectrum; Amanda does; others do; whatever, so be it.
aliasofwestgate
@Shinobi:
So you’re saying a 14 year old shouldn’t have medical supervision when taking Plan B? When her body isn’t even mature enough to handle everything without at least some worry over the effects?
The side effects are annoying and rarely serious in mature systems, i’d be cautious as hell with a younger girl’s reactions.
Shinobi: I’m aware of all the issues of pharmacology. I’m a pharm tech. But even a 1 time use drug does need some monitoring. In most cases it will seem redundant, but if a 16 or a 14 year old has one of those rare, adverse reactions and dies? Adults are well aware of the risks, and i’m sure most of the younger girls would be too. But i’d STILL want to be safe in the end.
Scamp Dog
@Bullsmith: I sometimes think of it as a choice between the shit sandwich and the lit-sticks-of-dynamite sandwich. Um, I guess I’ll take the shit sandwich. After this can we try someplace else, with fewer crazy people in charge?
FlipYrWhig
@bin Lurkin’:
This might be more of a parallel case than you intend it to be. Do you think a Democratic presidential administration would sign onto a plan endorsing the teaching of evolution in every public school? Thereby broadening the reach of “evolution,” rather than keeping the status quo? I highly doubt it.
General Stuck
I’m reluctant to even weigh in on this topic, not being or the parent of tween. And of course there are politics involved, but politics directly related to the health of minor children. That is a whole nuther calculus for making decisions.
Also, I recall when “the pill” first came out, it was deemed perfectly safe, but the truth turned out a little different than that for some women. And how can anyone trust the FDA, with the hand in glove with the drug industry on approving drugs too early, that ended up killing people.
And then there is the question of why wouldn’t anyone want a very young person to not see a doctor that maybe specializes in this field, at a PP center, or elsewhere, to explain the hard facts about sex without condoms, that can actually kill you in the twenty first century.
And politically, the tender issue of minor children, sex, and reproductive health/disease, the wingnuts would love to fire up an ad that Obama wants to turn your teenage daughter into a streetwalker.
If this was the only means of contraception, then maybe I would look at it different. But I think it really does rise above liberal politics, into a place that should have caution as the watchword. I support what Sebellius did, whether Obama was in on the decision or not.
The Populist
@bemused:
(Sigh) Me too. I’m over it. I call them out and if they are so upset that they wouldn’t vote for Obama because of a morning after pill being unavailable to kids 17 and under, I give up.
If the GOP takes full control in 2012, so be it I guess. I just do not want to hear any whining. I hear it now and I laugh and ask…where were you guys in 2010? Argh….disgusting nonsense.
EDITED TO NOTE: I voted in 2010 for dem candidates, I will be voting in 2012 for Obama and dem candidates. If we lose this because of turnout? I will be mighty pissed.
Shinobi
@aliasofwestgate: If it is safe for OTC for any age according to the FDA I would assume it is safe in the way that Nyquil or Aleve is safe.
IF there are serious concerns about safety for young girls then the FDA should not let them have it OTC. IF there are not serious safety concerns then they should not. The FDA has said it is okay, so I think that continuing to restrict it is baseless.
That is where I am drawing the line here, but most of the arguments are all about the sexing. Now I’m hearing that it is a labeling issue, and that’s great, because it is fixable. ( And if the secretary had some kind of issue with how the research was conducted, I would be fine with that too!)
What I’m not fine with is restricting access because people think it is icky.
Paula
@aliasofwestgate:
The fact that you may have some idea of what you’re talking about immediately disqualifies you in this conversation.
Xboxershorts
@srv: Does he really?
Were you equally outraged at last week’s equally bullshitty headlines about Obama authorizing horse slaughter for food????
Were you?
Because that was bullshit too. And if you were outraged last week about that, then you fell for the skull fuck again…
aliasofwestgate
@Shinobi:
Exactly. If they can wrangle the labeling issue, then we’ll see it fully OTC at some point. Even if it takes another few years. But for now, we at least have to remain at the current level of restriction until that process is completed.
The limits are there, but i also think they’re reasonable limits considering the product in question.
harlana
Too bad Sebelius doesn’t have E Warren’s guts – as a woman, she should be ashamed
Tuffy
I’m an Obot and a huge K-Seb fanboi, but this is bullshit. There is no justifying this with yarns about 14 year olds overdosing on Plan B. They overruled public health experts they had meticulously consulted on this.
LT
So this is going to be the line: It’s not anti-science to overturn scientists at the FDA. And the support of this anti-science move by (President of the Untied States) Obama shouldn’t be seen as political.
And this doesn’t play into or help the anti-science crowd, which has gotten stronger by some factors over the last ten years, at all.
Idiots are part of life – but why do they own so much real estate at BJ?
And this doesn’t even speak to what Obama’s support of this does to the *image* of contraception, and how this is the most hanging of hanging curve balls to anti-everything-about-women Republicans.
Jay B.
This thread has it all. Overwhelming paranoia, rank prudery, reflexive buck-passing, patriarchal patronizing, sex phobia, tepid support for science and an absolute aversion to actual, rather than political, reality (you know this decision doesn’t hurt Obama, it hurts girls. But whatever. Who gives a shit, those sluts shouldn’t have had sex or have been raped to begin with.) It’s awesome. Great work guys. Go Team D!
jamurph
Maybe if we keep defending the president on all things, he will come to realize how valuable and important we are. Then we will get the policies we really want.
Also, this was entirely his call and claiming that is wasn’t is an insult to our intelligence. Sebelius and all dept heads work for him. Obama sold out his voters again in hopes of picking up a handful of voters who believe he is the anti-christ.
Paula
@LT:
Because she lives in the United States of America? I suppose it’s rhetorical question …
General Stuck
On the other hand, this decision does provide a rare opportunity these days, for the firebaggers to get their rocks off, so to speak. The poor dears must be starved for some fresh Obamafail red meat to bite into. Carry on.
bemused
@The Populist:
I’d be livid. I don’t want to think we have so many stupid people in this country, they would willingly let us all fall over a cliff.
Xboxershorts
@jamurph: Then again, maybe if we learned how to use Google instead of trusting media headlines and soundbites…
We’d realize the outrage isn’t always justified.
Mnemosyne
@LT:
Wow, that story was a huge stew of misleading bullshit. Compare the full quote that I put in my comment # 176 to the abbreviated paraphrase in that story:
It’s not a dispute over whether or not Plan B is medically safe for young girls — it’s a dispute over whether the proposed packaging was easy enough for girls with a minimum of a fourth-grade education to understand. Way to mislead everyone, New York Times.
ETA: Are the “scientists” you’re referring to being the ones who determined that the medication is safe, or do you have a statement by an educator saying that they feel the instructions were sufficiently clear for a 10-year-old to understand so they’re calling bullshit on Sebelius?
Again, Sebelius never questioned the science. At all. She questioned the packaging and asked the manufacturer to resubmit it.
Brachiator
@Jay B.:
Don’t forget hyperbole on your part.
@LT:
Scientists, by themselves, do not determine policy anywhere, at any time.
Scientists are not high priests whose recommendations must be obeyed.
LT
And @aliasofwestgate:
Sebelius should make peanuts prescription only
Shinobi
@Brachiator:
Nope, they are just people who base their recommendations on research, logic and reason, instead of emotions and superstition. Why would we want to listen to those morons?
Amir Khalid
@Mnemosyne:
This seems like an entirely sound reason for Sebelius’ decision. There was no moralistic or political calculation behind it after all, merely a concern for the safety of the girls who would be using Plan B.
Still, the outrage was fun while it lasted, wasn’t it?
harlana
i am all for young girls who have the good sense to not want to get pregnant to have easy access to birth control, you should not create impediments to this, with the incredible social pressure for girls to have babies these days, and i’m talking all socioeconomic levels, this is a birth-worshipping country like nothing i’ve ever seen, i am still very uncomfortable with the fetishization of motherhood and to a lesser degree, parentood, that permeates our culture. given our limited resources. why isn’t anyone talking about the morality of choosing to wait until you can reasonably afford to support a child before you have one – give these girls a chance for a future, not many young women feel comfortable with their parents knowing they have sex and will therefore not have access to contraception.
don’t get me wrong. i believe in loving healthy families. we need more of them. what we don’t need are more children brought into what is a very scary, unstable world right now, that we are not prepared to care for and nurture. today’s younger people and the future generation will need at least all the emotional support we can give them. how can we do that when we’re freaking out about losing our house or job or health insurance for us and for them?
why don’t we educate our children in how to handle themselves in sexual situations instead of pretending they don’t have any hormones and the judgement of an average adolescent or teenager and make it easier for them to prevented unwanted births, instead of making birth control harder for young women? which may lead to more abortions anyway? don’t we hate abortion? i’m confused.
oh well, not really surprised tho. The fertility industry wins out.
LT
@Brachiator:
Is that the line you took with Bush’s anti-science policies?
And I’ve heard this a few times, but haven’t seen complete confirmation: This is a first time ever situation.
If that’s true – I mean, wow. really ugly awful bad wow.
http://ksjtracker.mit.edu/2011/12/08/hhs-sec-overrules-fda-whos-right-and-wheres-the-evidence/
Mnemosyne
BTW, I would probably be more suspicious of Sebelius’ questioning of the packaging if we hadn’t just received proofs of a book that didn’t include six pages of corrections we had sent to the publisher, only to have them tell us they were coming with the next set of proofs.
Publishing anything is a giant pain in the ass, so at the moment I’m predisposed to believe Sebelius that the manufacturer’s instructions were not sufficiently well-written.
Lojasmo
Even a vast majority of American adults are medically illiterate (87% IIRC). Shit, I don’t even believe Tylenol should be OTC. This was NOT a bad decision.
Martin
I have no problem with the decision. Not because it appears politically motivated, but because it’s consistent with a million other decisions already made in this country:
I as an adult cannot buy Sudafed without giving 11 forms of ID.
Adults in many states cannot vote without giving 11 forms of ID.
People under 18 are not trusted to vote.
People under 21 are not trusted to drink.
People under 18 are not trusted to buy tobacco.
People under 18 are not trusted to buy pornography.
Adults in the US cannot legally buy pot (per the same federal drug policies as this falls under).
Restricting access to a medication (that is currently restricted) for the same population that you restrict pornography doesn’t strike me as a problem in any way, as the restriction gets loosened for everyone else.
Given a choice, I would VASTLY prefer that my someday 17 year old daughter be able to buy porn over medication, and I would VASTLY prefer she can vote over all of those. My preference is that none of those restrictions apply, but given the already cultural restrictions in place, this one seems in no way contradictory or dangerous.
My prediction is that after being available OTC for everyone 18+ for about 2 years, there will be no mass outbreaks of rape, or whatever the fuck the godbotherers are bothered about, and the <18 restriction will be quietly lifted without fanfare or hysterics. We've got some stupid cultural norms in this country, but they're not going to go away overnight. No point suddenly freaking out over them.
And I'll state here and now, if any <18 year old young lady would like to put a box of Plan B in my shopping cart at Target, I not only will happily check it out without looking for a prescription, odds are I won't ask her to reimburse me for it either. And I can't think of too many adult women that wouldn't do the same, so I don't think this even represents an in-practice restriction for the same reasons that I know the best place to get pot is from any one of the 16 and 17 year olds in my neighborhood.
Mnemosyne
@LT:
And yet Mr. Raeburn didn’t even mention that Sebelius did not question the science. In fact, she stated in her press release that the science is not in question, only the wording of the packaging.
I can’t figure out how I can either post to that website or e-mail Mr. Raeburn, but it seems that he, too, has been seriously misled by reading only the stories written about Sebelius’s press release and not the actual press release.
General Stuck
So it’s the progressive (cough) position to not want girls as young as 11 to speak with a compassionate doctor in this field of medicine, to explain what the decision to have sex means, health wise. And that they should be able to buy a hormonal drug, like say, aspirin, otc, that has not been tested adequately for children that young, before making it available . Check
Some of you give kneejerk reactionary the nourishment it needs to exist in the world.
harlana
the above said, i understand the reasoning behind the decision and the legal implications therein, i am speaking more from a morality point of view
i dunno, what the hell am i talking about? what we need now more than anything are
more indentured child servantsmore free janitors in schools!jayackroyd
@FlipYrWhig:
No, I hadn’t reached that point in the thread when I posted my comment. My apologies. ANd thanks for pointing out my error.
Jay B.
@Brachiator:
Yeah, i’m just being so out there. Seriously, I don’t even bother with comments much anymore because you people have become a fucking cargo cult, the mirror image of the dreaded FDL commentariat.
People are seriously arguing that Obama only “supports” this decision but doesn’t “back” it or some such hair-splitting and, of course, he didn’t make it anyway, nor has any say in the matters that happen in his Administration. That’s when male posters aren’t deciding how icky they find teenage girls having sex. Or, in Flip’s case, sex pretty much overall. And of all the people supporting this decision — which will primarily punish young girls who were raped or those who have very bad relationships with their parents — say that it’s entirely right, politically do to so, which is really what matters most.
You are arguing that science might be right, but why should we listen to scientists anyway?
LT’s right — I’m sure that the Bush anti-science stance chafed your ass. Why? It was simple political calculus. That’s all that really matters, isn’t it?
Linnaeus
@Mnemosyne:
For what it’s worth, the FDA Administrator’s statement says that, in FDA’s view, that the data indicates that adolescent girls do understand how to use the medication effectively. So it seems to me that FDA and Sebelius don’t see eye-to-eye on this, unless I’m misinterpreting something.
Quaker in a Basement
OK, everybody who was all upset LAST WEEK that 16 year olds needed a prescription to get Plan B, raise your hands. Anyone?
If this decision is the threat-level-red outrage some folks are making it, we should have been hearing folks yelling about it before yesterday.
Is it rational to be
Mnemosyne
@Jay B.:
So your proof that the packaging was, in fact, written at a fourth-grade reading level and Sebelius’s objection to it on those grounds (the only grounds on which she objected, by the way) is therefore bullshit is where, exactly?
LT
@Mnemosyne: You think that this has nothing to do with science at all – or politics – and it’s just because the fucking FDA fucked up on the fucking label?
Jesus fucking christ.
srv
@Xboxershorts: I never got along with horses. People tell me it’s yummy.
edit – I do prefer unicorn meat.
Ronbo
The question is…
Would you prefer the extremist Republicans in charge or the current moderate Republicans to be in charge?
Neither choice fits what 65% of the voters want. But hey, if it’s a choice of death by drowing or death by burning, I’m going to choose… neither.
I’ll vote for a good choice, not the false one the 1% are giving us.
LT
@Mnemosyne:
Can you explain why you feel so much more qualified than actual scientists at the FDA, former and present, on this?
And why the only people who seem to agree with you are Rush Limbaugh, every Republican member of Congress, and too many BJ commenters?
General Stuck
When Vioxx came out, it was sold as a wonder drug for pain, especially the arthritis kind, for people who had trouble taking other NSAIDs. So when the FDA had to pull it for killing people with heart attacks, when I saw it on the news one night. I had just taken my own dose the doctor had given me, and thought, WTF, motherfuckers are trying to kill me, and I will never trust those assholes again. MD, scientists, or not.
Mnemosyne
@Linnaeus:
There’s definitely a dispute, but it doesn’t seem to be over the science or the safety of the drug. It seems to be over the packaging. I guess one of the questions I’m now wondering about is, how many other drugs are packaged so they can be used independently by children? I know that Children’s Tylenol, etc., are packaged for adults to read and administer them to children, but I don’t know how many drugs are specifically packaged for children.
LT
@Mnemosyne: BTW, the labeling and the science are intertwined in a way that makes them not so simple to unravel.
Jay B.
@General Stuck:
Well, that’s stupid even for you. Let’s say, oh, I don’t know an 11 year old was raped. She’s terrified. She can’t/doesn’t want to go to the doctor, because, after all, she doesn’t want her parents to find out (for any number of a million reasons). Maybe she confides in an adult whom she trusts and maybe that adult, like an older sister, counsels her that this is a viable option so that she can at least worry less about being pregnant from rape at age 11 with all of the other things that she has going on.
I know, this is hyperbole. It can’t happen. It’s clearly some far-fetched fantasy that is really a guise for us “progressives'” real goal of sexualizing 11 year olds and empowering them to have multiple partners as early as possible.
Martin
@Ronbo:
Um. They just approved what was colloquially called the ‘abortion pill’ for over the counter use for most individuals. In Mississippi, they recently tried to make it a life-sentence felony to use that drug.
This isn’t a moderate Republican move. It was not many years ago that even the moderate Republicans wanted it 100% illegal. In fact, no previous Democrat elected to the WH would have done what was just done. Yeah, it’s not perfect, but this is not a failure, it’s a clear (if incomplete) victory for the left.
LT
@Quaker in a Basement:
It’s Shoq! And several BJ comments – rolled into one!
Ahem: Anyone who hasn’t spent every hour of the last forty years working to make conditions in prisons better – just SHUT UP ABOUT BRADLEY MANNING!
Mnemosyne
@LT:
Given that the dispute is not over the actual science, but over reading comprehension, I feel like I’m fairly qualified over people who are used to reading a lot of scientific jargon and may not be able to judge what a fourth-grade level reader is able to comprehend.
If Sebelius was disputing the actual safety of the drug, I would defer to the scientists, but that doesn’t seem to be the dispute.
Yes, there are almost certainly some politics involved since, as others have pointed out, the first girl to die because she didn’t understand how to properly use Plan B will be a frickin’ martyr, so I understand why there’s a deep level of CYA going on here.
But I’m getting really fucking tired of people claiming that Sebelius is somehow questioning the science of whether or not it’s safe. She is not. She specifically says in her press release that it’s safe and her concern is that young girls who use it understand how to use it.
ETA: I will ask you the same question I asked Linneas: how many OTC drugs on the market are packaged specifically so children can use them independently? Every children’s drug I’ve ever seen has assumed that it would be administered by a parent, so the instructions are written at that level.
Mac G
Obama said that as a father of two daughters, he thinks the government should “apply some common sense” to rules governing over-the-counter medicine. He said he understood Sebelius’ concern about letting medication with potentially adverse side effects be available to 10-year-old girls “alongside bubble gum or batteries” at drugs stores.
“I think most parents would probably feel the same way,” he said. Asked point blank if he supports Sebelius’ decision, Obama said, “I do.”
It is terrible policy and shitty politics. It rejects science, pisses off pro choice supporters, and will result in unwanted pregnancies not being lowered among 14-16 year old girls who will roll the dice instead of notifying their parents of being sexually active.
I find it all depressing.
Linnaeus
@Mnemosyne:
What I’m lifting from is the FDA Administrator’s statement on OTC Plan B. Specifically this part:
This suggests to me – again, unless I’m misunderstanding the statement – that FDA thinks that adolescents can understand how to use the drug, implying that packaging isn’t a problem in the FDA’s view.
FlipYrWhig
@jayackroyd: Well, thank you, I appreciate that.
General Stuck
@Jay B.:
Oh Jay B, you are as predictable as the sun rising in the west, only showing up here to bash Obama. I doubt you give a shit about what Sebellius did, long as the opportunity for some poutrage is not missed. IT is hyperbole, like your first comment on this thread and you should have stopped writing right there, not to mention comically hyper reactionary. It’s what you do here, in gracing us with your presence and foul mouth.
General Stuck
When Vi oxx came out, it was sold as a wonder drug for pain, especially the arthri tis kind, for people who had trouble taking other NSA IDs. So when the FDA had to pull it for killing people with heart attacks, when I saw it on the news one night. I had just taken my own dose the doctor had given me, and thought, WTF, motherfuckers are trying to kill me, and I will never trust those assholes again. MD, scientists, or not.
Jay B.
@Mnemosyne:
The bullshit — the absolute bullshit — is that you really believe that was the real reason for the decision. It’s transparently stupid and absurd and something that would literally take a day of fucking editing to fix (which almost certainly she had read long in advance). She’s the first HHS to overturn any FDA approval and you really think she did it, alone, without any Administration guidance because of grammar?
Mnemosyne
@Linnaeus:
But Sebelius’s retort was that she wants the instructions to be comprehensible down to age 11, which generally is not considered “adolescent” as far as I know.
You may be able to consider that goalpost-shifting since it sounds like the manufacturer may have been instructed to only study down to age 13, but I don’t think it’s a completely invalid concern, especially since, as I said, I’m not sure how many OTC drugs are currently packaged for the independent use of kids that young.
Martin
@Jay B.:
Then that adult, like an older sister, can buy the 11 year old the Plan B without a prescription. Easy.
Last week that wasn’t possible. Now it is. On the scale from what we had last week to what we want, this decision gets you about 95% of the way there. Everyone is pissed off that they only got 95%.
Mnemosyne
@Jay B.:
Yes, Jay B, reading comprehension level = grammar. The only difference between “See Spot Run” and “The Catcher in the Rye” is the grammar.
You really have no clue what you’re talking about, do you?
ruemara
I won’t bother to read 218 posts on this, but I’m a woman, I support a woman’s right to choose and the idea that a pregnant 13 year old could buy Plan B without any adult oversight or contact scares the shit out of me. Incest, child prostitution, etc etc. At some point, real adults have to brought into the equation. I couldn’t believe that the idea was that 11 year old girls should be able to get Plan B. It’s outrageous. I don’t see this as a set back for women, because these are minors, not women. I don’t want girls to think that Plan B should be popped as a precautionary vitamin after sex. I don’t want boys to manipulate young girls into sex because “they can just buy Plan B”. No thanks. There are and should be limits.
Brachiator
@Shinobi:
You must not hang around scientists very much.
Some of the most vicious, immoral, devastatingly bad and cruel decisions in the US and elsewhere have been based on the supposedly rational recommendations of scientists.
An anecdote on a less heated topic. I once attended a Skeptic Society conference at Cal Tech celebrating Carl Sagan. The main speaker, Michael Shermer, noted the amazing number of big brained scientists who were appalled at the fact that Sagan apparently smoked marijuana and were absolutely convinced that this was bad, immoral and made Sagan a lesser scientist. Many in the audience apparently shared this sentiment. And then everyone went to the bar to have a drink.
ruemara
Now why am I in moderation? Help, save my super important comment!
pluege
having to vote for obama because the alternative is even worse is a damn shame.
American exceptionalism my a*s – the system sucks.
LT
@Mnemosyne:
You know actual scientists disagree with you on that?
And this scientist thinks you should stop talking:
FlipYrWhig
@Jay B.: So even though I actually agree with you on the merits, and said so repeatedly up and down the thread, taking exception only to a particular idiosyncratic rhetorical strategy about liberating the power of sexual pleasure, you might as well take a potshot at me because, why, exactly?
LT
@Jay B.:
Gold stars.
Linnaeus
@Mnemosyne:
True, “adolescent” is a murky term. In the same statement, the FDA Administrator refers to “females of child-bearing potential”. I’m presuming that’s intended as a functional equivalent of “adolescent”.
boss bitch
@NobodySpecial:
You mean like DOMA and a boat load of gay rights he signed into law, using foreign aid to push other countries to respect gay rights, getting rid of conscientious objector, ending the Iraq war, defending Muslims and about 90% of his other policies?
Quaker in a Basement
@LT:
Uh, whuh?
Anyone who just now noticed that we have military prisons and that service members who leak classified information get put in them really shouldn’t suddenly run ’round with their heads on fire claiming that the place where Pfc. Manning is being held is the Black Hole of Calcutta.
Great example of my point, LT. Folks who can’t be bothered to learn the simplest facts on this decision are ready to go full-bore, Obama-betrayed-us, dial-it-to-11 outrage when they didn’t give a crap about this just last week.
LT
@Linnaeus:
You are not misunderstanding. That’s exactly what it says, and it’s based on scientific study.
Mnemosyne
@LT:
And yet Dr. Hamburg doesn’t specify the age to which her study was done, while Sebelius does specify an age (11) that she would like to see data for. So do you think that Sebelius is making shit up and they really did study down to age 11, or do you think that Dr. Hamburg’s studies may not have gone to that age level?
Again, we’re not arguing over science. We’re arguing over reading comprehension. Believe it or not, those are not actually the same thing.
Jay B.
@FlipYrWhig:
Because I support the liberating power of sexual pleasure (when it is between two consenting adults) and I don’t find it to be a particularly moral hurdle, so I find prudery funny?
Karmakin
Don’t blame Obama. Blame your youth-hating..no..DESPISING, neighbors and colleagues.
Let me put it this way. You’ll see the voting age and the drinking age lowered before you see a majority of adults comfortable with the idea of teen sexuality.
Edit 2: Oh. And DON’T let me forget this one.
You’ll see High Schools start later in the mid morning instead of 8 in some places.
Mnemosyne
@Linnaeus:
I kind of suspect that the dispute here between Dr. Hamburg and Ms. Sebelius is in that “adolescent” definition. IIRC, 11-year-olds are not generally considered adolescents, but that’s the age that Sebelius is specifying.
I’m also suspicious that there’s a different, behind-the-scenes pissing match going on and this is just one visible sign of it, but that could just be me.
Martin
@Mac G:
No it doesn’t, any more than limiting access to porn to those 18+ reinforces the false notion that masturbating makes you go blind.
Fuck, we have how many zillions of goddamn threads on this site dedicated to humanely adopting cats and dogs and bunnies, yet almost nobody here would give a second thought to killing a mouse. We’ll have long discussions of the best way to cook a steer but if Cole ate Tunch for dinner one night it’d be armageddon here.
Science has fuckall to do with most of the laws, policies, regulations, and conventions we have in this country. We do not toe the scientific line 100% in any political setting EVER. It’s never once happened and it never will happen. When the national speed limit was reduced to 55 to save gas, nobody shit a hefer that the science said that 47 was even more economical and fuck you government for selling out the science. Science is science and policy is policy, and while one influences the other, it is at MOST influence, and in this case you got influence. Plan B is mostly OTC. Progress. Limiting to 18 year olds is policy because honest to God that’s what the country wants, even though no <18 year old will ever be denied access to it if they have even half a brain enough to ask their older sister, aunt, neighbor, or random stranger on the street to hook them up, which is only now possible because everyone 18+ has unfettered access to it.
chopper
@Mnemosyne:
still waiting for a good answer to this one.
General Stuck
@Martin:
Terrific comment. and true
Linnaeus
@Mnemosyne:
Could be. Is “adolescent” interpreted as beginning at being particular chronological age, or when a girl can bear children? It’s not fully clear what definitions Sebelius and the FDA are working with, and it’s fair to point that out.
Brachiator
@LT: RE: Scientists, by themselves, do not determine policy anywhere, at any time. Scientists are not high priests whose recommendations must be obeyed.
Let’s see. Bush would kick scientists to the curb and appoint people who believed in the Baby Jebus or were little more than loyal pro business cronies. Or paid stooges of corporations.
How does this compare at all to the current situation?
In the past, reputable scientists in the US recommended forced sterilization of poor and nonwhite people. All the evidence supported their conclusions. And political leaders blandly complied. After all, these were the experts.
I never trust high priests.
LT
@Mnemosyne:
Do you mind if I ask you your qualifications to say that Dr. Hamburg is an ignorant ass? She sure seems to think that science got kicked in fucking teeth here. Did you bother to read and absorb her letter?
chopper
@Mnemosyne:
that’s gotta be some simple-ass packaging to be safe enough for your average 11 year old to buy and self-administer. are the instructions in picture form or something?
chopper
@Martin:
yeah, this about a hundred times.
FlipYrWhig
@Jay B.: Well, congratulations. But I really don’t think it’s a winning rhetorical strategy to say, “Hey, let’s give this pill to children so they can begin a lifetime of joyful fucking!” rather than “Hey, let’s give this pill to children in case they get in over their heads!”
boss bitch
@harlana:
So you’ve spoken to Warren on this specific issue?
J
Since Americans can’t remember what happened during the Bush administration, I suppose it’s too much to expect middle aged and older citizens to remember what it was like to be seventeen. Oddly, though over fifty, I do remember.
It’s an astonishingly rare teenager who is going to consult with her parents about you know what, and an astonishingly rare parent who is going to be open to such discussions. Even if we put that aside, the aptly named plan B or morning after pill doesn’t really lend itself to discussion, consultation, etc. When it’s needed, it needs to be used, and soon, if contraception wasn’t used or failed. The idea of a scared, confused teenager, who probably doesn’t have a personal physician, securing parental consent/ consulting with with a doctor and so on in the circumstances is, except in incredibly rare cases, absurd.
Linnaeus
@Martin:
Plan B has been available without a prescription to those 18+ since 2006, and those 17+ since 2009.
Mnemosyne
@Linnaeus:
That’s why I half-suspect this may be the visible part of a larger dispute between the two of them. It seems like they’re talking about two slightly different age groups that they’re each picturing as users — like, say, if Dr. Hamburg is looking at the data and seeing that the age group most likely to use Plan B has no trouble comprehending the current materials, but Sec. Sebelius is looking at the data and worrying that a very small potential subgroup might have trouble with them. If that’s the case, then I can kind of understand Dr. Hamburg getting frustrated since she could feel like Sebelius’s concerns are nit-picking/ass-covering.
LT
@Mnemosyne:
Hamburg’s response makes that appear to be an invented dispute by Sebelius. As pointed out above:
Mnemosyne, not surprisingly, has not spoken to this in any way. Have you (or (Mnemosyne) never seen Tylenol bottles in stores? Do they seem to especially labeled to make them understandable to 11 year olds?
FlipYrWhig
@boss bitch: Someone should ask her. Doesn’t Scott Brown have teenage children now? It could be a legitimate personal = political question for both of them.
Martin
@Mnemosyne:
Depends ENTIRELY on the 11 year old. My daughter will be 11 next month. She’s got a classmate, also 11, that honest to god looks like she’s 17. She’s 5′ 10″, wears adult clothes (because she’s 5′ 10″), boobs, bone structure, the works – and she doesn’t just look like a 17 year old, she looks like a hot 17 year-old (if she was my daughter, I literally would never sleep again and probably die from the stress). And then she runs around with these other 11 year olds and plays and you wonder, what the fuck is wrong with that teenager. She’s clearly an outlier, but there’s a pretty solid continuum of development from my daughter who is on the ‘little kid’ end of the spectrum to her.
The problem then becomes with <18, there's no way to discern age, because there's neither an expectation or even a means for them to possess ID. You can't possibly ask a retailer or pharmacist to confirm the difference between an 11 year old and a 15 year old because we have no infrastructure or mechanism by which to do that. So as soon as you drop <18, you're all-in down to pretty much any age, which is why we rely on parents to confirm age.
From an implementation standpoint, if you want to have any kind of 18 is now OTC, 1) is already covered automatically. This policy then also implements 2). That’s all there is to do – you’ve now provided all possible options if you want any kind of restriction on use down somewhere below 18.
Mnemosyne
@LT:
No, no, you’re right, scientists are infallible and we should always listen to everything they say, even if some people think that maybe an 11-year-old would have trouble understanding the same instructions that are perfectly comprehensible to a 16-year-old.
Snowball
@Martin:
Amen! You are exactly right.
LT
@Brachiator:
You are beyond saving. Scientists are “high priests.”
Mnemosyne
@LT:
11-year-olds are not supposed to be dosing themselves with OTC drugs. Their parents are supposed to be giving it to them. That’s why the instructions are written at an adult level and not a child’s level.
That’s why there’s a special concern with a drug that an 11-year-old may want to take without her parents’ knowledge.
Seriously, did your parents not pay any attention at all to what medications you were taking at age 11? Did they just hand you a bottle of Tylenol and expect you to read the instructions and know how much to take?
LT
Mnemosyne: Time to tell Dr. Block that he just doesn’t understand.
Lojasmo
@LT:
I can tell you FOR SURE, as a nurse, that 90% of my patients have NO FUCKING CLUE how to properly manage their meds.
I have less confidence that an adolescent girl in crisis would be able to comprehend the directions and warning labels, even if written at a fourth geprade level ( which is unlikely)
“Mnemosyne: Time to tell Dr. Block that he just doesn’t understand.”
Don’t spend much time with doctors, do you?
FlipYrWhig
@LT: It sounds to me like the FDA wants to say “it’s safe enough for all ages” and Sebelius/Obama want to say, “be that as it may, we’re not comfortable expanding access to people 16 and younger.” So the narrow focus of the dispute could still be about the age at which pregnancy becomes a risk, because it makes sense to say it should be available to anyone who could get pregnant, but pinning that to a certain age for policy-making purposes would be a minefield.
Brian R.
@The Other Bob:
Other than avoiding a Karl Rove-led Americans for Prosperity ad buy blanketing the Midwest with TV ads, radio spots and billboards screaming about how “Obama wants your twelve year old to be able to get an abortion without you knowing about it.”
Seriously, I think some of you people were in a coma during the 2004 election.
Xboxershorts
@J: I am 52 and I recall clearly what it was like to be 12-13. It was embarrassing.
I was a walking boner. Every single sock I owned had crust on it and for fuck’s sake…the clothes we had were ridiculous.
You could buy a 3 finger bag of weed for 30 bucks, they called it a lid….
Those were the days….
LT
@Mnemosyne:
This shows just how completely off the rails you’ve gone here. They’re “not supposed to”? And? They’re “not supposed to” stick their fingers in each other’s orfices, by many parents’ account, but you know what – kids do thing they’re “not supposed to.”
And what in god’s ballsack doest that have to do with this? Jesus? Are you fucking serious. There are a whole lot of avaialable OTCs that, if taken by their 11-year-old kids, parents would like to know about. But they’re still OTCs. Because the FDA has deemed them safe to be.
Martin
@Linnaeus: Ok, then what’s the problem everyone has?
I’ve not once read a story anywhere – at GOS, or FDL, or anywhere else about an <17 year old having to have a baby because nobody would have gotten them Plan B. This is worth getting worked up over if there's a problem that needs a solution, but so far we have a potential problem in theory and not one instance that I can tell that we have a problem in practice that demands a solution.
This seems to spring right back to my recurring complaint about the left that the most vocal group of complainers don’t fucking care at all about solving real problems, they just want the right kind of lip service toward their cherished ideals, and if given a choice, they’ll tie up the world in order to get the right words spoken from a podium, even if it means people dying, losing jobs, rights, and so on which they’ll dismiss without even a consideration.
LT
@Mnemosyne: And your attempt to make this completely not about politics – gah. Just gah.
boss bitch
@FlipYrWhig:
I honestly don’t care what either of them think on the issue. Brown, because he’s a good soldier, would say what the GOP wants him to say. Warren? who knows, but its not a deal breaker for me. I would be curious though to see the reaction to her answer if she said she agreed with HHS.
FlipYrWhig
@Martin: You wrote a better version of what I was trying to say. In terms of regulation, proving a certain age becomes difficult until those driving years. How would you enforce a cutoff that kicked in well below that? That said, I’d sooner see the policy err on the side of too _easy_ access rather than too strict. Plan B for everyone!
General Stuck
You see. It’s not a powerful hormonal drug that may or may not be safe for children, it is a fucking PRODUCT being denied.
Doctors, all of them, are business people at some level, as well as being scientists. You want to tell me they are infallible and being all scientist, all the time? Sorry, no sale, reality disputes the notion. Vio x
LT
@Lojasmo:
Dr. Robert Block, president of the American Academy of Pediatrics, should be – especially in regards to the discussion being had here – simply thought of in terms of “oh, those doctors!”
Brilliant.
boss bitch
IF HHS didn’t stop the FDA or eventually allows wider access how long before Michelle Bachmann or Rick Scrotum says Plan B will cause promiscuity in little girls or makes them want to have sex with animals?
Mnemosyne
@LT:
Edited — never mind. I need to follow the link before I respond.
FlipYrWhig
@boss bitch: My instincts tell me she would agree with Sebelius and Obama. For better or for worse.
LT
Jesus. The double underline thing you have to do to keep to separated paragrphs in the same blockquotes on BJuice is the stupidest fucking thing on the internets.
The Other Chuck
@harlana:
You know who else fetishized motherhood? The Nazis.
No really, they did.
General Stuck
@FlipYrWhig:
Elizabeth Warren is likely the biggest Obot east of the Mississippi, maybe west of there, also too.
Brian R.
@Martin:
PREACH.
Mnemosyne
Here’s some more of that highly scientific thinking from the American Academy of Pediatrics:
ETA: Again, this says to me that the dispute is between doctors who think that older adolescents should have full access and bureaucrats who are worried that girls on the younger end of the age range may not understand how to use it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@boss bitch: Elizabeth Warren self-ID’d as a Republican until she was “in her forties”> She’s 62. Unless my math is off, that means she was calling herself a Republican while Ronald Reagan was calling for a “pro-life amendment” and while GW Bush was naming Clarance THomas to the USSC pretty much to be an anti-abortion vote, and through at least one election when Bill Clinton was calling for abortion to be “safe, legal and rare”. Granted, there were a lot of pro-choice Republicans then. But I think there are a lot of pro-choice voters, women included, who see questions like this in more nuanced terms than many in the left-blogosphere. They, of course, should be ashamed of themselves.
boss bitch
@FlipYrWhig:
When you say “for better or for worse” do you mean she would agree with them because she’s a Democrat or out of loyalty to her former boss?
The Other Chuck
@Mnemosyne:
I’m not sure how the girl is going to get the dosage wrong. There is literally one pill in that entire box. And it’s expensive enough you’re not going to accidentally buy two.
Is there really a plague of tweens getting casually knocked up because they know there’s always plan B?
Makewi
This is the exact same move made by the last GOP administration. The idea that this is somehow better because a Democrat did it is laughable. It’s like saying date rape is better than stranger rape because at least you knew the rapist. Putzes.
boss bitch
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I’m one of those pro-choice women.
TooManyJens
@Karmakin:
Oh God, that’ll never happen, despite all the evidence of how much better it would be for the kids.
boss bitch
@Makewi:
This decision is not like being raped. Knock it off.
Xboxershorts
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I was too. As a Navy Fire Control Tech, I voted for Reagan, twice.
One learns from one’s mistakes…and moves forward.
Now, go troll somewhere else.
Mnemosyne
@The Other Chuck:
I don’t think the worry is so much the dosage itself as the other instructions (doesn’t protect you against infection with VD, could cause heavier than normal bleeding, etc.)
I can’t look up the specific pill being discussed since I’m at work, but I know that there are a few formulations that use 2 pills taken X hours apart.
(Edited for clarity)
LT
@Mnemosyne: Does that not seem desperate even to you? You found one comment from one dr with the AAP – about one aspect of this very broad subject –
Ai yai yai.
I don’t think we’re going to get much further.
Let’s remember what we’re talking about here.
boss bitch
@Xboxershorts:
Unless I read his comment incorrectly, I don’t think Jim was being a “troll”.
FlipYrWhig
@boss bitch: My hunch is that she probably genuinely believes in restricting access to emergency contraception below a certain age, as Sebelius and Obama seem to, irrespective of the statements about safety from the scientists involved. For better or worse meaning whether you like that opinion or not.
Xboxershorts
@boss bitch: I reread that and realize that I just saw criticism of our current crop of hopefuls.
I walk back the “troll” line…ty
boss bitch
@FlipYrWhig:
Gotcha. I was thinking of marriage when you said that as in married to the Dem party so you have to say xyz.
LT
@FlipYrWhig:
That’s a hard one to understand, just on its own. What, if you think this, do you think they see as an alternative for those girls?
El Cid
@Martin:
It would probably gather some page hits, though, and presumably some links.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@boss bitch: Thanks, I was glad you (I think) got what I was trying to say. To some people, any comment they disagree with is “trolling”. I happen to know a fair number of liberal, pro-choice women who I suspect (I haven’t taken a poll) might agree with this decision, and would certainly be offended by the idea that they should be ashamed of themselves if they do.
FlipYrWhig
@LT: To me it seems like there’s a very low downside vis-a-vis health and safety, and given that menarche ages keep declining, it makes more sense to stop trying to guess who’s _really_ of childbearing age and make it widely available. People would squawk about juvenile sex and what have you, but I’d lke to think it’d be a winnable fight. But it would be a fight, and an ugly demagogic one at that, especially in light of Obamacare panic and the flap over Gardasil.
Mnemosyne
@LT:
You’re the one saying that scientists are always right and we should always go with their recommendations, not me.
Again, to me the comment from Dr. Breuner highlights that the dispute is between doctors who think older adolescents need access and bureaucrats who worry that the girls at the lower end of the age range might not understand how to use it properly, since she’s poo-pooing the concern that an 11-year-old would have trouble with the instructions by saying no 11-year-old would be using it anyway.
ETA: I think an argument saying that the needs of the many outweigh the possible misuse of the few is a valid one, but that’s not the argument you’re making, is it?
Paula
My gawd this thread is weird. The FDA allows suspicious shit to be approved all the time, only to recall a product when some “unforseen consequences” arise. Scientists, like politicians, can use their position to skew their results for the benefit of the people (or industries) who pay for their research.
Look, Plan B has been around for years, I don’t doubt its overall safety. But you’re talking about a mess of hormones in developing teens interacting with another mess of synthetic hormones. Adult women with prescriptions are warned about adverse, and even dangerous side effects with regular birth control pills. But now you are talking about making this hormone treatment widely available without supervision for young women.
I guess we can assume that many of the people in this thread would totally be OK with signing their under-16 daughters for THAT study, right? FOR SCIENCE.
FlipYrWhig
@LT: Good question. I guess it’d just be the Ick Factor. But it does seem to be something that people even here have voiced objections to that aren’t exclusively about political calculation.
General Stuck
That they tell some adult somewhere, what is happening. Whether it be rape, most likely from a family member, or just generally about sex and sexuality. It doesn’t need to be a parent, and sometimes shouldn’t be. It can be a nurse at a high school clinic, another HC worker, or a trusted relative, or other adult that is trusted. And take it from there. Maybe the worst thing is to buy a pill OTC at the drug store, dealing with the situation all by themselves.
LT
@Mnemosyne:
Please explain how this would play out. Because I can see this: an 11-yar-old has sex. If she’s smart enough – she she knows this can lead to pregnancy. If she’s even smarter, she knows about this thing called “Plan B”.” If she knows that much – how in fuck’s sake does she do Plan B wrong? It’s a pill. One, single pill. You put it in your mouth and swallow it.
Do you think she’s going to grind it to powder and snort it?
bin Lurkin'
What’s most amusing about this thread is that if Sibelius and Obama had made the opposite choice then a good solid third of the posters on this thread would be arguing the exact opposite of what they are here now to all their Republican acquaintances, friends and family.
FlipYrWhig
@Paula: I don’t have kids but I feel like if my son or daughter told me that something went awry in the middle of their sexual encounter and now they’re worried there’s a chance of pregnancy, I’d want them to be able to give this a shot. Maybe I’m under-thinking the risks of the pill but I sounds to me like an easy call…
Keith G
Obama’s HHS has now set a negative precedent, face it. This is the first time an HHS secretary has ever overruled the FDA. The first time. This action needs to be condemned just as if it were a Romney action. We are citizens of a republic not nob polishers for a really cool politician.
I voted for Obama to look after important ideals, therefore he needs to hear my scorn. The email was sent this morning, I will follow up with a call later.
General Stuck
@bin Lurkin’:
This is a fairly stupid comment. If Obama had done the opposite, then butthurt progs wouldn’t require the blogs FP’s to put up a thread for a round of firebagging, to amuse themselves and cover their bets as obligatory troll protection in the netroots swamp.
I personally no longer talk much to republican friends and acquaintances, as we have nothing to talk about these days. And with my wingnut familily members, it is considered MAD to even broach the topic of politics.
LT
@Mnemosyne:
And just to be clear – there aren’t even any serious counterindication problems with Plan B.
As far as GStuck’s “Well, if an 11-year-old gets raped by her father, there’s always the nurse at school – and that’s why this – and especially Obama -ROCKS!” I think I’m just done with Stuck. Beyond tiresome. I’m actually glad he’s in in iron lung. Less damage to the outside world and all…
Makewi
@boss bitch:
Reading for comprehension much?
Sorry to hear about your iron lung general.
General Stuck
@LT:
So if an 11 year old is being raped by her father, she can deal with it by anonymously buying an OTC drug. And this would stop what is happening, how? Health care workers have mandated confidentiality, and most teens have some awareness of at least one adult in their lives they can trust. You are a fucking idiot, LT. And so goddammed ideological, you can’t think past your fucking nose and Obama hate.
LT
@General Stuck:
I’ll just let readers look at that.
General Stuck
@Makewi:
Aqualung, my friend.
Djur
@General Stuck: “It’s not a powerful hormonal drug that may or may not be safe for children”
It’s a pity we don’t have a federal agency which has procedures and standards with which to determine this kind of thing.
I’m not going to get angry about this yet. I’m suspicious, but if (as Mnemosyne suggests) this is resolved soon with modified packaging, it’s okay with me.
The people acting like this is some kind of major safety issue are fucking ridiculous, though. Acetaminophen is sold in huge jugs on the shelf at Walgreen’s, and it kills 450 people a year. I took excessive amounts of acetaminophen for an undiagnosed pain disorder as a teenager, and today I have a damaged liver. This was something I could buy with my allowance, find in my parents’ medicine cabinet, etc. It is extremely easy to take some, find your pain hasn’t subsided, and continue taking more — the label doesn’t clearly say IF YOU TAKE MORE THAN RECOMMENDED YOUR LIVER MIGHT FAIL AND YOU WILL DIE, after all.
Plan B is sold in a single dose. I’ve purchased it for my girlfriend before after a broken condom situation. The instructions amount to “Take this pill as soon as you can”. The idea that there’s a significant risk of misuse is fucking ridiculous, unless you think these kids are going to jam it in their eyes or smash it up and snort it. The only significant risk of misuse is if they take it too late, maybe because they had to wait until the next school day to talk to a trusted adult.
Mnemosyne
@LT:
She thinks it will protect her from getting an STD.
She thinks this one dose will protect her the next time she has sex.
She’s panicky so she buys and takes two or three doses just to be sure.
She doesn’t understand that if she throws up the medication, it may not work.
She doesn’t understand that if she’s on antibiotics, it may not work.
Seriously, you think that an 11-year-old has the exact same reasoning ability as a 16-year-old? I’m sorry to tell you, but the science says otherwise.
bin Lurkin'
@General Stuck: Eh, since I don’t know any actual Democrats or liberals in real life I have to talk to Republicans and conservatives or remain mute. Keeping Republicans and conservatives from discussing politics is essentially impossible so I end up in these sorts of conversations with them.
Living in the deep south sucks in
somemany ways.Makewi
We should probably see about trying to convince the 11 year old to not have sex while she’s 11.
Mnemosyne
@Makewi:
That totally would have worked with Penn State — just have all of those 10-year-olds tell Coach Sandusky that they weren’t supposed to be having sex and voila! Problem solved!
General Stuck
@Djur:
It’s called the FDA, and unless you’ve been living in a cave the last 20 years or so, you would know these scientists, are as likely as not to hold stock in drug companies, and have in fact, claimed total safety of drugs that ended up killing a bunch of people, and fairly recent.
You want to hang your hat with those people, for young children?, republicans would love you. And it seems part of the reason for blocking this drug as OTC for minors, is in fact a dispute on whether they actually have tested the drug for safety on the very youngest of children that could buy it, along with a pack of sugarfree gum, any time they want, with enough cash.
Paula
@FlipYrWhig:
Yeah, that would be the “ideal” circumstance in which Plan B is used. But after reading what these studies actually were able to advise on young womens’ potential use, I’m not sure the evidence is addressing the possibility of someone using it as primary birth control — particularly if its the ONLY kind of birth control (excepting condoms) that they have access to without telling anyone. I don’t find “It’s too expensive to buy in bulk!” a good argument, either. I mean, sorry, but there are a lot of people who are uninformed about reproduction out there who have no idea what their options are and won’t bother/are too afraid/ashamed to ask for advice. They might use the “emergency” pill again and again, as long as no one knows they’re having sex. And as someone who is paranoid about the potential danger of hormones in birth control pills, the idea of a teenager even having a few, if infrequent, dosages of this is suspicious without a medical professional being consulted.
If we’re talking about the politics of the issue, I’m pretty sure that Plan B was always controversial even when OTC for adult women, so the idea that Obama and Sebelius are taking some kind of weird, amoral stance by avoiding the issue — especially after making birth control free under ACA — is mostly a bunch the usual firebagger posturing. And since I’m pieing a lot them, I’m staying away from that side of the argument.
Makewi
@Mnemosyne:
Plan B doesn’t work on boys.
General Stuck
@LT:
You can let readers look at that all you want. But you can’t answer how providing OTC Plan B will have any chance of stopping a father from continuing to rape his 11 year old daughter. Only an adult can stop that, not a fucking pill.
Xboxershorts
@Mnemosyne: Ya know…that was an excellent response. Thank you. I’m stealing it too.
LT
@General Stuck:
Plan B also can’t read or write music, or stop future wars in the Balkans. What it can do is stop the 11-year-old who was just raped by her father from getting pregnant. I won’t even make a joke implying that this means little to you, although it’s tempting.
Xboxershorts
@Makewi: It takes two….or did you forget that part?
Xboxershorts
@LT: This too is an excellent response.
But…what it begs is not to fry Obama or Sebelius. What it cries out for is to ensure the manufacturer prints up labels and directions which, as Sebelius noted…
Are understandable to an 11 year old.
Paula
@Djur:
No offense, but that sounds less like an argument for OTC access to Plan B and more an argument for the fact that the FDA can be fucking incompetent a lot of the time.
Also, a lot of doctors now try to really restrain the amount of OTC drugs administered to children. I don’t even think they recommend cold medicine for toddlers and babies anymore.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@LT: Since we’ve determined that the baseline for this discussion is an 11 YO raped and impregnated by her father, your contention is that this 11 YO would be 1) aware of and thinking about the risk of pregnancy after the rape 2) aware of the existence of the plan B pill, 3) able, within 72 hours, to get together what is a considerable sum of money for a fifth/sixth grader, without talking to an adult, and go to the drug store to buy a pill?
Yeah, Stuck sure is silly to suggest that an eleven year old is more likely to have a mother, a grandparent, an aunt, uncle, sibling, teacher or school nurse to turn to in the event of sexual abuse.
bin Lurkin'
@General Stuck: And those same kids can buy a bottle of acetaminophen easily big enough to easily kill them at the same time with no questions asked..
General Stuck
@LT:
Okay, so you would prefer the young girl not get pregnant. That is reasonable. But again, how will not getting pregnant stop the rape from continuing? There is a thing called abortion that is still legal in this country, and an ideal way to demonstrate that a heinous crime is being committed at the same time. you got whacky logic, dude. But then it isn’t really logic based in providing health and safety to young girls. It is based on politics, and fealty to the liberal kind. Now isn’t it? be honest.
Keith G
or
Wow. No contesting those solid gold hypotheticals.
Makewi
@Xboxershorts:
I’m fine with suggesting to 11-year-olds of all sexes that they not have sex while they are 11. I realize that this is an outrageous thing to say around these parts, but there it is.
In addition, rapists should be locked away forever. Child rapists should have anchors tied around their necks and be dropped into the Marianas Trench.
Djur
@Mnemosyne:
“She thinks it will protect her from getting an STD.”
“She thinks this one dose will protect her the next time she has sex.”
Both of these are reasonable issues, but neither of them are likely to be prevented by restricting access to Plan B.
“She’s panicky so she buys and takes two or three doses just to be sure.”
So mandate an ID check or counseling for the purchase of multiple doses at one time. Simple.
“She doesn’t understand that if she throws up the medication, it may not work.”
In which case she is no worse off than if she has not taken the medication, or if she took it too late, or if it simply failed to work at all.
“She doesn’t understand that if she’s on antibiotics, it may not work.”
Again, in which case she is no worse off than if she has not taken the medication, or if she took it too late, or if it simply failed to work at all.
The next step after taking emergency contraception should be to talk to a trusted adult. If she does do this, all of your proposed concerns are irrelevant. If she doesn’t, there are much worse problems than that the medication may not have been effective — and the likelihood that she would have gone to see a doctor at all is vanishingly small.
That is: if she has a trusted adult to talk to, she will. If she doesn’t, she won’t. The only question here is whether in either case she has an additional chance to prevent a life-threatening pregnancy.
@General Stuck: I’m concerned about regulatory capture of the FDA, sure. I do not think the solution to this is to abandon the review process or to give a political appointee carte blanche to override regulatory decisions. I do believe strongly that the FDA is more likely to make the correct decisions over time than the assorted HHS Secretaries under Republican and Democratic administrations. I do believe that a documented, public regulatory process using controlled studies and the testimony of experts is less prone to abuse. I think the Vioxx scandal was an exception; you seem to believe it is the rule.
amk
Yet another case of bleeding hearts being on total disconnect with rest of the body.
LT
@Mnemosyne:
You could make a similar argument about any single OTC drug. Any of them.
Tell me an OTC you agree should be an OTC.
Djur
@General Stuck: “There is a thing called abortion that is still legal in this country, and an ideal way to demonstrate that a heinous crime is being committed at the same time.”
Have you been living under a damned rock?
LT
@Keith G:
When you’ve made it your life’s mission to fight EmoBaggers! – they give you a lifetime supply of those.
General Stuck
@Keith G:
Don’t really appreciate cut and pasting of comments from two different posters to make a point, even a stupid point as you made.
Djur
@Makewi: I completely agree. Preventing minors from obtaining Plan B without a prescription will not keep minors from having sex, though, so I don’t see why this is relevant.
TooManyJens
@General Stuck:
It would be better if a girl who is being sexually abused went to a medical professional who could not only help her not get pregnant, but could get her help with the abuse. That said, is the more likely outcome of requiring a prescription for Plan B: 1) that a girl who is being raped goes to a doctor for a prescription; or 2) that she just doesn’t get the drug at all? I’m not claiming to have evidence, but 2) seems a lot more likely to me. At the very least, I would require evidence to believe that 1) is more likely to happen.
LT
@Makewi:
Wtf? Who here thinks that’s outrageouos?
Mnemosyne
@Makewi:
And we only have to worry about kids getting molested if they might get pregnant afterwards. Gotcha.
Suffern ACE
Well this has been a great thread. I am now opposed to 11 year olds buying any OTC medication of any sort. If they can buy it, I will write my state rep to see if he can change that.
General Stuck
@Djur:
And how many of those states with laws on abortion covering minors, have exemptions in cases of rape and especially from rape by the father of the child. Along with the ability to STOP THE RAPE FROM CONTINUING.
Djur
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I don’t see how the supposition “most 11-year-old rape victims have an adult to turn to in a timely manner” (which I think is probably true) then necessarily suggests “we should prevent any other 11-year-old rape victims from avoiding pregnancy.”
How is the girl who has a parent, sibling, teacher, pastor, etc. to talk to injured by the availability of Plan B for other girls who do not?
LT
@General Stuck:
It doesn’t do anything about that. It’s a pill. I’m sorry it can’t do anything about that. Who the fuck said it did?
What a complete jackass. What other problems would you like to fault Plan B for not solving?
Mnemosyne
@LT:
Which is why 11-year-olds aren’t supposed to be taking OTC drugs without parental supervision. Again, did your parents just hand you a bottle of Tylenol and tell you to figure it out for yourself, or had they been giving it to you long enough that you didn’t really need any explanation?
That’s the difference with Plan B — we have to work under the assumption that, unlike Tylenol or Advil or Zyrtec, the girl is planning to take it without her parents’ knowledge. That means that we have to make sure that she can understand on her own how to take it and what side effects to expect without assistance from an adult.
I think a 15 or 16 year old is completely capable of doing that. I’m not so sure that an 11 year old is.
@Keith G:
You do know that they put that information in big black letters in the information leaflet that comes with every packet of the Pill, right? I take Kariva/Mircette — I’ll scan it and post it for you when I get home.
Even adult women don’t always realize that taking the Pill doesn’t protect them from STDs, so they’re required by the FDA to state it in the leaflet.
TooManyJens
@LT:
The voices in Makewi’s head, of course.
Djur
@General Stuck: Exceptions which sometimes require the intervention of a judge, or in other cases are practically unavailable. Are you seriously suggesting that we should encourage pregnancies among minor rape victims in order to make the abuse more visible? Do you have any idea how dangerous pregnancy is at that age, even with an abortion, which would happen at god knows what point?
Are you fucking insane? Has your venomous rage at the “firebaggers” you see around you blinded you so much? Is there anything the Obama administration could do that you wouldn’t defend to the bitter end?
Suffern ACE
@LT: OMG. She might get into the clutches of adults if she has to go to them to get this damn pill and that’s what would make this stop! But those nasty adults should be avoided at all costs by 11 year olds. Must be avoided by 14 year olds. They must solve their own damn problems.
LT
@Djur:
If only there were some way to measure such a thing…
LT
@Mnemosyne:
It’s like arguing with Riick Santorum.
Djur
A less vituperative comment of mine is in moderation for mentioning the name of a drug controversially approved by the FDA, I believe. Who knows when it’ll come out of moderation, so to extract what I think is the most pertinent point:
eemom
The topic is tragic.
The thread is hilarious.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Djur: my point was more that 11 YO rape victims are perhaps not the best case for discussion of this law (which I oppose but don’t think is as clear cut on any level as some here seem to think), and even more so that the Plan B pill, whether prescribed or OTC, is, in the real world, pretty irrelevant to an isolated 11 YO who has been raped by her father. Seriously: How many eleven year olds do you think are aware of the existence of this pill?
I’m no expert on the topic, but I think you’re being optimistic there, especially on the “timely” part (again, not an expert, but my sense is that these things are usually not quickly discovered/revealed) which would suggest abortion is the more likely solution.
General Stuck
@TooManyJens:
I see your point, but again, how likely is it that the rape will be discovered and stopped, if the young girl has the ability to get plan b on her own volition, or that she isn’t and doesn’t and becomes pregnant, that will most likely make evident as to what is happening. This is a moral and medical dilemma for sure. Getting the pill without a doctor visit, would seem to create the situation of allowing the rape to continue undiscovered, into the future. To not be exposed and dealt with legally, and I would think mentally and physical health wise, stopping the rape would take precedence over anything else, including an unwanted pregnancy of a child from incest. Just my opinion,
JC
There are 400 comments now, so I’m coming late to this, but, how widespread is Plan B distribution?
Is it in every Walgreens, every drugstore in every city, in every state, of this great nation?
Can pharmacists refuse to give you Plan B?
Makewi
@Mnemosyne:
So then you wouldn’t encourage 11-year-olds to abstain? Because they might be molested or something?
Djur
@Suffern ACE: I wouldn’t oppose a mandatory intervention if a minor purchases Plan B. You do know that to purchase medication, you still have to interact with a person (or a machine that can summon a person), right?
A mandate that someone who appears to be a minor is purchasing Plan B should be asked to talk to a pharmacist for instructions/counseling would be acceptable to me. The important thing to me is that the girl is able to go directly to the store, purchase the medication, and take it without the potentially significant delay of going to an adult intermediary.
LT
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
You have it completely backwards.
Keith G
@General Stuck: You have no valid complaint. I was not attacking a person (something that you on occasion seem to do). I was high-lighting two statements containing weak reasoning. I did not let on that they were from the same typist. I do not think that I violated the Blog Commenter Manual of Style
General Stuck
@LT:
Taking or not taking the pill in the case of a child being raped by a parent, absolutely does have powerful life changing experience, when it prevents the result of child rape from reaching a consequence that would reveal what is happening, rather than keeping it hidden. Idiot.
General Stuck
@Keith G:
Well, the point was stupid, you were trying to make. So I guess it was harmless enough.
TooManyJens
@General Stuck:
I’m arguing that the most likely outcome of requiring a doctor visit is that the girl will just skip the whole thing and hope she doesn’t get pregnant. That also allows the rape to continue undiscovered as well as increasing the risk that she gets pregnant.
bin Lurkin'
@Suffern ACE: Adults like Joe Paterno and Mike McQueary?
Makewi
I’m against child raping. Also pharmacists who think they are doctors.
Djur
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: But it’s the HHS Secretary who introduced the topic of 11-year-olds. Mnemosyne has been explicitly defending the decision on the basis that it might not be safe for 11-year-olds due to insufficient packaging.
Obviously, I’d much rather discuss the 15-17 year olds who might be having (consensual, same-age, protected) sex, and who gives a fuck, and they should be able to prevent pregnancy any way they can.
LT
@General Stuck:
This has to be read very closely to really get the depth of its slime on you.
Translation for those who won’t: If an eleven-year-old gets raped by her father she should have to get pregnant. And good and pregnant, so people notice – so the father can get in trouble. That’s the child’s burden.
And please forget everything Stuck said previously about having an adult to talk to. Because that would make this depravity even sicker.
TooManyJens
@General Stuck: Wait … are you arguing that she should get pregnant, to expose the abuse? Because holy shit, is that ever fucked up.
LT
@Djur:
Thanks for saving me the trouble…
LT
@TooManyJens:
We are about to witness some legendary crab-walking right about now.
Oy. Ick.
rikyrah
I’m as pro-choice as one can get, and yet, I don’t see the outrage. yes, it’s a political decision, but damn, I don’t want teens having their hands on Plan B – OVER THE COUNTER.
Mnemosyne
@LT:
Yes, because pointing out that most parents don’t just toss a bottle of Tylenol to their kid and say, “You figure it out” is something Rick Santorum would say.
Keith G
@Mnemosyne:
So…I am to assume that this is your reason for suppoering Obama’s HHS being the first HHS ever to overturn an FDA decision?
Mnemosyne
General, my dear, I think you need to retire from the field, because you’re starting to say things I don’t think you’ve really thought through.
Xboxershorts
@Makewi: My sister in law is a pharmacist. 4 years of heavy chemistry with some pre-med course work plus 2 years of graduate school at least.
They may not be doctors but their training is at least in the Masters range. So to imply their input on drug interaction is not of value is wrong minded.
Djur
@rikyrah: Why not?
Makewi
@General Stuck
Are you pro parental notification laws when it comes to abortions? Just asking because I’m seeing the similarity here to the arguments used there.
Makewi
@Xboxershorts:
I never implied that. So we’re good.
TooManyJens
@LT: That’s really not reasonable. I don’t agree with her conclusions, but Mnemosyne’s arguing from genuine concern for the well-being of young people, not from an attempt to control people’s sexuality or impose Christianity on everyone.
LT
@Mnemosyne:
No, because for you to be consistent – you can not support any drug being deemed OTC. If you don’t – say that. I’ll at least respect you being consistent.
Xboxershorts
My bad…seemed that way.
LT
@TooManyJens:
I’m lost. What comment are you responding to?
General Stuck
@Djur:
No, what I am saying is, that it is paramount that some adult somewhere should become aware of what is happening that a child is being raped. I think, in any way you want to look at it, that the continued rape of a child, is far more dangerous than an unwanted pregnancy and abortive measures to deal with it. Even for a young child. Are you going to tell me that girls who have the knowledge and wherewithal to buy plan b otc to deal with the heinous crime being committed, will not serve to keep it being committed.
Rather than creating conditions, the young girl would tell some adult what is going on.
Oh, and fuck you cold hearted motherfucking ideologue.
PIGL
@OzoneR: @OzoneR: So how would you feel about handing out aspirin in a society where are a problem.
The problem with your society (and mine) is not drugs. The problem is sanctimonious idiots.
Mnemosyne
@Djur:
Actually, I’ve been pointing out that the idea that it might not be safe enough for 11-year-olds due to insufficient packaging is Sebelius’s stated reason for overturning the decision, not scientific worries about Plan B itself, and giving a few theories as to why she might think that.
As I said, I think it’s a valid argument to say that the population that most needs OTC access to Plan B is demonstrably able to take it on their own without parental supervision so the needs of the many should outweigh those of the theoretical few.
But I got very tired of people claiming that Sebelius was somehow questioning the science rather than the packaging when her press release very clearly said otherwise.
Keith G
@General Stuck: lol
Edit
Well, it does look like you have bigger fish to fry.
Makewi
@Xboxershorts:
I see where you are coming from. I’m just saying that in response to the suggestion that this drug be prescribed by pharmacists, which is what you would get if you required children of a certain age to see a pharmacists before purchasing the drug. That was suggested by someone.
chopper
@Djur:
ID checking 11 year olds. Of course, it’s so obvious!
Djur
@General Stuck: I know, it’s terrible that I’ve shown absolutely no interest in preventing child rape, nor have I proposed any alternative methods of rooting out cases of rape that don’t involve forcing children to have a life-threatening health condition. I certainly didn’t do that in any comments on this thread.
Even people who agree with you on the HHS decision are abandoning you on this one, because what you’re suggesting is unconscionable. (Incidentally, Mnemosyne: I think you’re making good points, even though I disagree with you. My vitriol has been solely for Stuck here.)
Fuck you right back, nutcase.
LT
@Mnemosyne:
Wow. it’s been very plainly laid before you that the FDA decision to make Plan B OTC was a scientific decision – and you stay on this? In public? People can see the comments, Mnemosyne. What are you doing?
Mnemosyne
@LT:
I don’t think any OTC drug should be marketed and sold specifically to children without making sure that those children can understand what they’re taking.
Hence my whole point about how virtually no child takes OTC drugs without parental supervision. Even the Flintstones vitamins label is written with the assumption that an adult will be giving it to the child, not that the child will be buying and taking it on their own.
Since the entire point of this discussion is that we’re talking about girls who will be buying and taking Plan B on their own without telling their parents, I don’t think it’s crazy to make sure that they can understand how to take it and what the side effects are without needing help from an adult.
Djur
@chopper: No ID = assumed minor. Yes, it is obvious.
General Stuck
@TooManyJens:
read my comment at 392. And by all means, lets let eleven year olds deal with parental rape by the ability to buy plan b over the counter on their own. jeebus.
TooManyJens
@General Stuck:
You’re assuming that. I don’t know why you’re assuming that. Are there any statistics on how many abused minors (especially as young as 11) are going to doctors and getting prescriptions for Plan B now?
@LT: The one I linked to.
Suffern ACE
@Mnemosyne: We really need to do something about the OTC laws if the age thresh holds are 17 and 11. This is just a weird discussion.
Mnemosyne
@LT:
Yes, because when Kathleen Sebelius issued a press release saying that she was concerned that the packaging wasn’t clear enough for young girls to understand, what she was really saying was, “Bad science!”
Yes, they can. I’m counting on the fact that I keep using words like “reading comprehension” and “product packaging” to clue them into the fact that I’ve been talking about reading comprehension and product packaging, not the science of whether or not Plan B is safe for young girls to take. Because no one at HHS — including, yes, Kathleen Sebelius — is claiming that it’s somehow unsafe or that young girls shouldn’t take it. The only objection from Sebelius was over the packaging.
I’m starting to worry about your reading comprehension skills, frankly, if you can look at Sebelius’s press release and continue insisting that her objection was to the science.
General Stuck
@Djur:
Dude, you have to accept the consequences of what you are arguing, just as I do. What you are arguing has the effect of placing the 11 year old with a remedy to not tell someone what is going on. Thereby aiding and abetting the continued rape of a child. I realize it is a terrible choice to make, between both approaches, but to you who have taken this to mean I support teenage pregnancy from rape, well just fuck you is all I can say. We are dealing with very young people on this issue, and the thread is shot through with liberal ideology, masquerading as sound conclusions.
Djur
@TooManyJens: Because he is grasping for justifications to defend the Obama administration from the legions of Professional Left Emobaggers who are lurking in every shadow. He does this on every thread where anyone is even remotely critical of the administration.
I bet you a hundo he thinks we’re all “firebaggers” for this, too.
LT
@Mnemosyne:
Maybe I’m getting lost here. Are you saying that you think Plan B is going to marketed and sold specifically to children?
Again: You CANNOT be consistent about this. You cannot support any drug being OTC – because you could say this about any drug.
One more time: Name me a drug that you support being OTC.
chopper
@LT:
do you think you were responsible enough to self-medicate when you were 11? i mean full-on walk into the pharmacy, buy the shit and take it and understand the risks, any side effects, the proper usage, etc for a medication you’d never been given before and had only heard of?
from what i remember of being that age, no fucking way.
you’re honestly getting this pissy and self-righteous over skepticism that your average 11 year old knows how to properly and safely self-medicate? do you have any actual children?
Djur
@General Stuck: The difference is that in your situation if the girl never gets pregnant, the rape isn’t discovered. My approach covers both circumstances, and doesn’t require inflicting a life-threatening medical condition on a child.
You know you’re not being reasonable here. You just refuse to admit it.
Xboxershorts
@LT:
Marijuana?
Psylocybin if proof of age?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
fair point, I had forgotten that in this endless thread, but I am frankly bewildered and more than a little disgusted by the constant invocation of this fantasy 11 YO rape victim.
@LT: Okay, enlighten me. How do I have it backwards?
General Stuck
@TooManyJens:
It is a matter of logic to the argument that these drugs should be available to even rape victims from incest. In that if you assume a child that young has the knowledge to go to the drug store and buy a pill otc, then you must assume they are aware that what is happening to them is wrong, and they have an alternative to not facing this wrong and dealing with it the only way it can be dealt with. Telling an adult.
General Stuck
@Djur:
No it doesn’t. Your approach is winning pol points for your ideology. And that is all your approach is.
TooManyJens
@Djur: Honestly, I disagree with the decision, but I’m not all that mad about it. I can see reasonable arguments for it, especially given that Sebelius seemed to leave the door open for reconsideration if the instructions are changed.
maye
I’m as left wing, commie, pinko, liberal, progressive as you’ll find here on the left coast, and I agree with Sebelius’ decision. I’m also the mother of a teenage boy. I agree with others who have said this is too potent a hormonal cocktail to be OTC. Also, I don’t want kids reaching for it instead of condoms. If the price is prohibitive, that’s reassuring, however, it is still too much drug for OTC.
chopper
@Mnemosyne:
right. plan b is safe even in young girls if taken as directed. when it comes to 11 year olds, ‘taken as directed’ generally means ‘administered by an adult’. the question is does an 11 year old know how to responsibly take medication as directed, medication they’ve never been given before, without any direction except for the box?
and why, exactly, does being skeptical of that idea make you an asshole?
Djur
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yeah, if Sebelius had vetoed the FDA based on “you can’t sell this to kids or else they might have sex” we’d be having a completely different argument. And that’s the kind of argument a Romney HHS Secretary might make, incidentally. Which is why I will still donate to and advocate for and vote for Obama in 2012 despite this decision.
Mnemosyne
@LT:
Uh, yeah. That’s kind of the point of making it available OTC to girls under 17 without parental permission, isn’t it? You really think that the drug company isn’t going to be making ads that appeal to the 14-to-17 year old crowd? Heck, HHS will probably make PSAs to make young girls aware that they can get it.
Any woman over age 17 can get Plan B over the counter right now. The only question in dispute is whether girls under 17 should also be allowed to buy it without restrictions. The battle over making Plan B OTC for adults is long since over.
Yes, it’s true — I can say that any OTC drug given to a child should be administered by that child’s parents. And I can further say that, because of the expectation that a child will be given that drug under parental supervision, it’s okay for manufacturers to write the instructions at the comprehension level of an adult.
If you’re arguing that the assumption for every OTC drug should be that anyone of any age should be taking it on their own, then we need to be re-writing the instructions on every single bottle of OTC meds to make sure that 11-year-olds who’ve never taken Tylenol before and don’t want their parents to know don’t accidentally poison themselves. But, again, I don’t think there are really all that many 11-year-olds out there who are self-medicating with OTC drugs.
TooManyJens
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Well, Sebelius pretty much made it about 11-year-olds in her statement. And some huge proportion of pregnancies in very young girls are the result of rape. If an 11-year-old is in the position to be using Plan B, rape is pretty damn likely to be the reason.
chopper
@LT:
replayed from moderation hell:
do you think you were responsible enough to self-medicate when you were 11? i mean full-on walk into the fermacy, buy the shit and take it and understand the risks, any side effects, the proper usage, etc for a drug you’d never been given before and had only heard of?
from what i remember of being that age, no fucking way.
you’re honestly getting this pissy and self-righteous over skepticism that your average 11 year old knows how to properly and safely self-medicate? do you have any actual children?
General Stuck
@TooManyJens:
It is a matter of logic to the argument that these drugs should be available to even rape victims from in cest. In that if you assume a child that young has the knowledge to go to the drug store and buy a pill otc, then you must assume they are aware that what is happening to them is wrong, and they have an alternative to not facing this wrong and dealing with it the only way it can be dealt with. Telling an adult.
And if they aren’t aware they can get pregnant. Then they aren’t aware of it, and will not go to the drug store for a remedy otc.
LT
@Mnemosyne:
Arg. let me try to put it another way.
HHS Secretary Seblius nixes a pill than can stop cancer in young boys being OTC – over the recommendation of the FDA – because the pill is orange.
You are the person here saying “It’s not anti-science – Sebelius said it was about color!”
the fact that the actual scientists who ddid the work at the FDA – including Dr. Melissa Hamburg, commissioner of the FDA – matters, you fuck.
Sorry. i guess Im getting “tired” of something.
TooManyJens
@General Stuck:
You still have not given any reason to believe that keeping Plan B unavailable to young girls without a prescription makes them any more likely to tell an adult that they are being abused.
Mnemosyne
@chopper:
I keep asking that, and all I get is, “Science!”
As I said, I think there’s a valid argument that the number of 11-year-olds who might find themselves in need of Plan B is so vanishingly small that the needs of the many ought to outweigh the concern that those specific girls might have trouble understanding how to take it without adult supervision. Unfortunately, no one seems to be making that argument except me.
(Edited for clarity)
Xboxershorts
@LT: That’d be all good if the scientific data were the point of dispute.
It is not.
It was about Sebelius wanting labeling an 11 yr old could understand.
Look, playing the science card is a straw man of sorts.
We ALL know politics played a role and labeling was Sebelius’ card for playing it safe.
It’s NOT about the science of the medicine. It never was. So, please, stop, linking to that.
Mnemosyne
@LT:
To throw a metaphor back at you, you’re arguing that we should teach kids to read using “The Catcher in the Rye” because, after all, books are books and there’s no such things as differences in understanding or reading comprehension between children of different ages.
LT
@chopper:
Ugh. The reap that comes from the fucking sow here.
Chopper, are you aware that this drug has been, and will be, used by people who are actually older than 11?
Djur
@General Stuck: What is this mysterious “ideology” you keep on mentioning? Do you think I’m a Republican?
I specifically mentioned a workable solution to the problem of minors covering up sexual abuse by using emergency contraception. Your solution would only work if the minor became pregnant. My solution would work regardless of whether the minor was at risk of becoming pregnant. And your response has been to ignore this and accuse me of ‘aiding and abetting’ child rape.
General Stuck
@TooManyJens:
Yes I have. You just don’t agree with it, or understand it. Would you rather take a pill anonymously to remedy the results or evidence of a horrible crime, as an 11 year old having sex with your father. And if you are aware enough to ask this question of yourself, then it would follow you are aware there is an alternative that will make it stop. But a pill can put that off indefinitely.
OH, and since you were one of those suggesting I was pining for rape victims to get pregnant. You can go fuck yourself from here on out.
Mnemosyne
@LT:
It would matter if the science was in dispute. The science is not in dispute. No one on either side is claiming that the science is in dispute. The only person pretending that Sebelius used the science as her excuse is you.
I’ll admit, it’s a lovely strawman, but it really doesn’t apply here. At all.
TooManyJens
@General Stuck:
But it does not follow that you will USE that alternative. How does making Plan B unavailable make a kid trust an adult enough to tell them what’s going on, if she doesn’t already? How would making it available stop her from telling an adult? You haven’t answered these questions.
Well, I asked. Because frankly I find your comments hard to parse, and I wanted to know if I was reading you right.
LT
@Mnemosyne:
The decision to make the drug OTC was a scientific one. All the way down to the packaging.
Again – that you think you get to make that call- contradicting the actual scientists involved here – wow.
chopper
@LT:
to address your example, i for one don’t think young boys should be administering their own chemo drugs.
Mnemosyne
@LT:
Example statement if the science is in dispute: “I feel that further study is needed to make sure that Plan B is safe for young girls to take, so I’m overruling the FDA.”
Example statement if the science is not in dispute: “The science has confirmed the drug to be safe and effective with appropriate use. However, the switch from prescription to over the counter for this product requires that we have enough evidence to show that those who use this medicine can understand the label and use the product appropriately.”
See how easy that is?
Djur
@chopper:
Absolutely not. However, we’re not talking about any drug here — we’re talking about an emergency medication with time-sensitive effects. That’s why the FDA spent the time and money necessary to analyze the safety of making it available over the counter to minors. They concluded the benefit outweighs the risk, and I’m yet to read a single argument why I shouldn’t believe the FDA on this issue other than “the FDA has made mistakes before” and “Big Pharma! BOOOOO!”
Remember, Sebelius is not blocking the implementation of this based on distrust of the FDA’s findings on matters of safety. Whether Plan B is safe for minors to take is not at issue here.
You should tell Mnemosyne and General Stuck that. The former takes Sebelius at her word, and the latter seems to think it’s all about preventing child rape.
chopper
@LT:
god forbid, somebody disagree with a scientist on policy. go ask James Hansen what he thinks we should do about climate change, he’ll probably say something like ‘stop all carbon emissions immediately’. clearly the fact that Obama hasn’t made that his policy means he’s anti-science.
Mnemosyne
@LT:
Ah, reading comprehension is now science, which is why kids read “See Spot Run” in chemistry class. Gotcha.
LT
@LT:
And it seems impossible – but you sound like you’re unaware that 11-year-olds can walk into stores in the U.S. right now, today, and but lots of different OTC drugs.
Is this possible?
Xboxershorts
@LT: Well, it’s equally incredible to many that you dispute what the secretary herself said..(which we all seem to realize was political excuse making, like it or not):
THE LABELING WAS TOO LEGALESE FOR AN 11 YEAR OLD..
cripes…sure, it’s a lame excuse. But the god damned science was NEVER in dispute and is STILL not in dispute.
And politics still fucking sucks.
Get over it.
Omnes Omnibus
Wow, I just read to 425 and this one of the stupidest threads ever. For the record, I disagree with the decision. I don’t think there is a fight over the science. I think policy makers are not obligated to make decisions simply because subject matter experts say something is a good idea; if that were the case, civilian control of the military would be gone – if a general says we need to do it, we need to do it, right? Policy makers are supposed to look at the big picture. I also think that, while I disagree with the decision, I am not freaked out by it for a couple of reasons: 1) as far as I can tell it did not change a thing; 2) people with whom I generally and broadly agree do specific things with specifically and narrowly disagree without me losing my shit – it’s called being an adult.
Suffern ACE
I guess I don’t take many medications, OTC or otherwise. I do find myself going to the pharmacist to get the “real” cough medicine now that it is a semi-controlled substance. Also, when I quit smoking, I had to go to the pharmacist counter to get the patches. Are there any OTC medications currently where the pharmacist is required to give instructions verbally?
LT
@Mnemosyne:
I don’t know how it applied exactly at the FDA, but do you think there’s not actually a scientific study of reading comprehension?
Mnemosyne
@Djur:
No, I do think that Sebelius probably is playing it safe. I just don’t think that saying that the packaging has to be comprehensible to an 11-year-old who’s taking it without adult supervision is somehow rejecting the science that says it’s safe when used as directed.
chopper
@Djur:
so we should allow children who have absolutely no ability to responsibly self-medicate, access to a drug OTC to self-medicate with as long as the issue is time sensitive. even though understanding the time frame involved is part and parcel to responsible self-medication.
Keith G
@maye:
But that has already been dealt with in testing. Do you have some other insight into this the FDA has not? If so please tell.
Over all, I agree with Dr. Cora Collette Breuner who is a member of the Division of Adolescent Medicine at Seattle Children’s Hospital and also representative of the American Academy of Pediatrics:
Mnemosyne
@LT:
Sebelius’s specific point was that she felt they did not test the reading comprehension down to the level of an 11-year-old. I have not seen one single argument disputing that from any of the doctor statements you’ve thrown at me.
If the FDA can easily show that, yes, they did test down to a fourth-grade reading level, why not pull that out and show Sebelius up in public right now?
LT
@Xboxershorts:
That is HoF doltishness.
Yeah, Xb, in an argument between several scientists and one political appointee – I take the word of the scientists way over the p.a. Crazy, I know!
Djur
@Xboxershorts: “But the god damned science was NEVER in dispute and is STILL not in dispute.”
Please explain that to the people in this thread who say things like “That is a potent hormone load”, “A dose of hormones can be a big deal”, “And that they should be able to buy a hormonal drug, like say, aspirin, otc, that has not been tested adequately for children that young”, “It’s … a powerful hormonal drug”, etc. Or hell, just look at the last couple of posts from chopper.
(Note that two of those are Stuck. He was doing the “BUT IT’S SO DANGEROUS” routine before that became untenable, so now he’s switched to “YOU LOVE CHILD RAPE”.)
boss bitch
@Makewi:
You could have a chose a million other comparisons why a violent image like rape?
Mnemosyne
@Keith G:
But, again, that’s a completely different argument than the one that LT is making. That’s the “needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” argument that I think has some validity.
There’s no claim in there that Sebelius is somehow ignoring the science, just that she’s being too pedantic for worrying about a population that is unlikely to take the drug in the first place.
LT
@Mnemosyne:
I can’t wait until Sebelius comes out and says her decision wasn’t science-based.
Omnes Omnibus
@LT: In your view, policymakers should always implement the recommendation of scientific experts? Regardless of cost? Regardless of political consequences? Regardless of of philosophical or ethical considerations? Is this correct?
Djur
@Suffern ACE: I don’t know if it was legally mandated at the time, but when I purchased Plan B (as an adult) they asked me to have a quick consult with the pharmacist. (This was at Walgreen’s.)
I don’t see any reason we can’t put that in place for minors. The FDA has wide discretion in these matters.
chopper
@LT:
I can’t think of a single drug, OTC or not, that’s properly administrable by an unaided 11 year old. the fact that an 11 year old can go into a ph armacy and buy OTC painkillers is not exactly a feature of this country that I’m necessarily proud of.
Mnemosyne
@LT:
Since your definition of “science based” is “reading comprehension skills,” I think we’re going to have a whole other argument about what she says next.
chopper
@Djur:
I didn’t say shit about ‘hormones’. I just don’t think 11 year olds are responsible enoughnto self-medicate. And guess what, you agreed, jackass.
Xboxershorts
@LT: She does have a masters degree in Public Administration, so…she’s well educated when it comes to public interaction with legal framework.
See where I’m coming from by checking out comment #111
I think the liberal base is being skull fucked.
https://balloon-juice.com/2011/12/08/plan-b/#comment-2921005
Djur
@Omnes Omnibus: That’s a ridiculous strawman. The FDA’s decisions have always had the force of law. This is the first time they have ever been countermanded by a political appointee. There’s a big difference between “not interfering with a regulatory agency for political reasons” and “doing whatever some random scientist says”.
Also, the FDA does consider cost and ethical considerations, and fuck no it should not consider political consequences. It is not the FDA’s job to ensure that Barack Obama wins another term. Nor should it be the EPA’s, the FEC’s, etc. The principle that regulatory policy should be insulated from political expediency and ideological interference is one of the major ways in which the Democratic party differs from the Republican party, and we should jealously guard that distinction.
LT
@Mnemosyne:
The worst part of your position is your seeming belief that you have the right, position, knowledge, whatever – to call Hamburg an idiot here. Because let’s be clear: You are saying, without question, that that letter she wrote just didn’t get it. That she was wrong to say that science had been upended here.
Everything else aside, I don’t know how you expect to be taken seriously after that.
Omnes Omnibus
@Djur: I addressed the question at LT because, based on my reading of his/her statements, that is what he/she believes. I also framed the questions broadly in order to attempt to remove it from this particular context.
Xboxershorts
@LT: No where in Sebelius’ letter to the FDA did Sebelius call Hamburg an idiot.
You do your position a disservice by using inflammatory and accusatory exaggerations which are clearly not part of the record, but are strictly opinion. (your opinion)
Djur
@chopper: The FDA disagrees that in this particular case it is dangerous for 11-year-olds to self-medicate. That sounds to me like you’re challenging the FDA’s official conclusions about the safety of this medication, and thus you are also in disagreement with the HHS Secretary’s stance on this issue. Correct me if I’m wrong.
General Stuck
This has been the most hideous thread I have ever partook on at BJ. Liberals, some I respect, are actually rooting for and approving of 11 year old getting birth control over the counter. Really, no shit. That is about as tribal and fucked up as it gets. Obama and Sebellius got it right. And did it in the face of liberal activists that have the morals of gold fish, apparently, at least when it comes to very young children. I mean, why don’t we give 11 year olds val lium over the counter, think of the benefits for young folks controlling their anxiety that is normal growing up. And how that will make life better for ma and pa.
An eleven year old being able to buy any chemical birth control over the counter is fucking insane. It is insane today and yesterday, and all day tomorrow. 11 year olds having sex is a serious thing with consequences, that adults can handle, and you want children that young to manage the consequences by themselves. What for? fucking ideology is what for, and kneejerk to the right wing war against abortion and any kind of sexual health maintenance. This may be the thread that finally breaks my addiction with BJ.
LT
@Omnes Omnibus:
You can take Djur’s answer as close enough to my own.
xian
@mk3872: don’t you mean LIBS, troll? you did your code-switching too late.
Djur
@Mnemosyne: I think LT is overstepping here, but I’m baffled by your suggestion that there’s no scientific approach to determining comprehensibility. Like you said, the issue isn’t that the FDA didn’t do studies on that issue, it’s that they didn’t cover as broad an age range as Sebelius would like. How is the FDA supposed to determine the comprehensibility of written material (which they do) if not by the testimony of experts and by conducting studies (which are then used by those experts in their testimony)?
LT
@Xboxershorts:
Mnemosyne, by insisting that Sebelius’ decision was not refuting science – when Hamburg states in her letter very clearly that she believes it is – is claiming to know better than Hamburg, or calling Hamburg an idiot.
Xboxershorts
@General Stuck: Men shouldn’t have any say when it comes to reproductive rights.
I say this as a man.
I won’t ever be able to understand what it means to have another life growing within me. Wanted or unwanted.
I will never be able to grok that.
Keith G
One additional thing:
If this tested and safe medication was made available tomorrow as the FDA suggested, I do not see how any early teenage girl could be medically harmed by that process.
As it is I do see now how hundreds of high school aged girls will be denied easy and efficient access to an important and safe medication.
This make no sense.
chopper
@Djur:
even if the directions were so dead simple your average 11 year old could comprehend them, I’d be uncomfortable with it, but okay. so i think I’m in agreement with sebelius here.
the idea that 11 year olds can take, as directed merely by the box, medication they’ve never taken before gives me pause. they better be good-ass directions.
Xboxershorts
@LT: Hamburg is a scientist. Sebelius is a public policy specialist.
The two can not be expected to always see eye to eye. Witness Elizabeth Warren’s position in Marijuana upthread. Which is clearly unaligned with the science of marijuana use.
Hamburg disagrees with Sebelius. Sebelius still did not call Hamburg an idiot.
Djur
@General Stuck: It’s amusing watching your writing ability collapse at roughly the same rate as your logic.
Again: the only response you had to my suggestion as to how to deal with the problem of 11-year-olds being raped is to shriek about how I’m an “ideologue” and that I’m trying to win “pol points”, which I think is some type of scoring system to determine how much worse someone is than Pol Pot, if I’m not mistaken. “[Y]ou want children that young to manage the consequences by themselves” is a lie, and you should feel ashamed of yourself for having typed it. Are you proud of what you’ve become?
rb
@lamh35: In theory, wouldn’t at least requiring the young girl to be “counseled” by a PharmD or some adult who can if the situation warrants, i.e. 10, 11, 12 or whatever the legal requirement is to report possible sex abuse of a minor be a better solution
In a word, no. This will lead to girls seeking to get plan b via theft, purchase from ‘friends,’ or not at all.
Consider: small town kid, 1 pharmacy option, pharmacist is buds with dad the abuser. Kid killing herself is more likely than dad going to jail, unfortunately.
Omnes Omnibus
@LT: That is is great in this particular context. One in which you should note I stated I disagree with the decision. I asked the question as a general one because your statements seemed to indicate that you thought policy makers should always follow the science. The fact that the FDA takes other matters into consideration has little to do with the question I asked. If I read too much into your statements, fine, just say so. If you were indulging in hyperbole, fine, just say so.
OzoneR
@Shinobi:
I disagree, it absolutely is, that’s why schools don’t let kids outside during the school day.
it’s not the state’s job to tell parents HOW to control their children, and that’s not what’s happening here. Teenage girls can still get Plan B with a prescription.
Xboxershorts
Great…how did I wind up in moderation?
Keith G
The defense rests.
Djur
@chopper: Keep in mind that this is medication you take once. You swallow a single pill.
And please also note that I’ve suggested mandatory pharmacy consults for minors purchasing this medication. I think that’d work a lot better than any clarification in labeling.
This decision doesn’t just affect 11-year-olds. It affects everyone up to age 17. I think 16-year-olds should have a right to prevent unwanted pregnancy before, after, with, or without consulting an adult. (Obviously, I’d prefer teenagers to talk to — or at least know that they can talk to — an adult before having sex. But the specifics of their sex life is not the business of any adult.)
OzoneR
@Shinobi:
If your father is raping you, an adult, who can get you to a doctor, or is one, should fucking know about that.
LT
@chopper:
You have no idea what Plan B is, do you? You think it comes only in inhaler/injection/snorting/braising/full-body-immersion/anal-insertion form, don’t you?
Pssst: Here’s a picture of Plan B as bought in the store. It’s one pill. In a box.
That’s all.
rb
@Jay B.: Hate to agree, but it’s true.
chopper
@LT:
Naw, that’s just whatever it is that’s shoved all the way up your ass. is it science? is science shoved way up your ass?
TooManyJens
@OzoneR:
Absolutely. Now how does this decision help that happen?
LT
@Omnes Omnibus:
Well, I dont’ think I did indicate that. It’s been a long thread. And that particular straw man was burnt to the ground pretty early on.
Djur
@OzoneR: Plan B is only effective within 72 hours, ideally within 24 or fewer hours. Doctor’s appointments take time to arrange, time to go to, transportation to and from, etc. This delay could easily reduce or eliminate the efficacy of the operation, and now you’re in a situation where you have to get an abortion — which, as I hope we’re all aware, is much more expensive, difficult to obtain, and medically serious than Plan B.
Remember: there are entire states with only one or two abortion clinics. These are also states which frequently have strict parental notification/consent laws. An extra 24 hours waiting to get a ride to the doctor might mean a month or two of pregnancy, a long and expensive trip to the clinic, and major family issues — and that’s one of the best-case scenarios.
OzoneR
@The Other Bob:
Then maybe that’s why the administration made it.
Maybe Kathleen Sebelius really doesn’t believe allowing a teenage girl to walk up to a counter at a pharmacy and buy Plan B all by herself is not a good idea.
rikyrah
why, even though I am pro-choice, do I support this decision?
have you all forgotten what it was like to be that age? the thought of teens, let alone pre-teens, walking up to the counter and getting Plan B like you pick up sudafed…is crazy.
that folks don’t grasp this sorta scares me.
LT
@OzoneR:
What the fuck is wrong with people who say shit like this? Do you want the link to 10-14-year-old suicide rate again? Those kids obviously felt they had no adult to talk to.
I’m surre they’re very sorry they didn’t live up to your “should.”
OzoneR
@Djur: :
Really, cause when I have the flu, I can usually see a doctor in like a few hours.
Djur
@rikyrah: So your reasoning for why you oppose teenagers having access to Plan B over the counter is that “it’s crazy”. Thank you.
Omnes Omnibus
@LT: Well that’s what I get for walking into an argument after everyone’s blood is up and they are completely hardened into their positions. I should know better.
LT
@rikyrah:
Do you have some numbers on the ages of people who will actually use this medication?
Djur
@OzoneR: You’re awfully lucky, then. It’s a good thing that everyone in the country has the same access to readily available doctors, transportation, and health insurance that you do.
OzoneR
@LT:
That’s a cop out, there’s always an adult to talk to. School counselors, nurses, your next door fucking neighbor. Shouldn’t we be encouraging girls in that situation to fucking talk to somebody instead of just throwing up our hands and saying “oh well, they can’t talk to anyone, lets just give them emergency contraception. That’ll do the trick.”
LT
@OzoneR:
Aside from teh fact that I’ve never known any such thing to be the case -anywher, ever – how compassionate! You little rapee – just get to a doctor! I could!
General Stuck
@Djur:
Maybe you are the future of Balloon Juice. or maybe you are a block headed piece of shit. I lean toward the latter, but who knows.
OzoneR
@Djur:
We’re talking about teenage girls, who last time I checked are covered under SCHIP if they’re uninsured.
Djur
@OzoneR: School counselors and nurses, as the name would suggest, are available at school. As in: not on weekends or during holidays. Last time I checked, sexual abusers didn’t take the weekend off.
Do you have any response for my suggestion as to how minors can both get expeditious access to a time-sensitive medication and access to a trustworthy adult? Because it seems like I’m shouting into the wind here.
Keith G
@chopper:
Swallow?
Might I suggest:
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/emergency-contraception-morning-after-pill-4363.asp
LT
@OzoneR: Fuck you you fuck. There is NOT always someone to talk to. As teen suicide rates should show you. But no – even confronted with that, your precious thoughts are more important than actual teen suicides – that have already happened!
Itt should be impossible how offensive this is.
OzoneR
@LT:
If a woman is raped, pretty sure walking into any police station and she’ll get help immediately. Which is what we should be encouraging them to be doing.
TooManyJens
@OzoneR:
I don’t think there’s a contradiction between “they should talk to someone” and “if they can’t/don’t talk to someone, they should be able to get EC anyway.”
I’d be all for, say, a package insert that gave the number of a hotline abuse victims could call, or advice that they should talk to someone. Maybe even the suggestion above that people who appear to be minors who buy Plan B should be advised to consult with the pharmacist. Nobody’s arguing that it’s GOOD that kids who are raped don’t involve an adult. It’s a total strawman.
I just don’t think it’s at all likely that there are girls who totally WOULD have told an adult that they are being abused, but now they won’t because they can get Plan B.
OzoneR
@Djur:
ER, police- all open 24 hours
Djur
@OzoneR: Children can be immediately enrolled in SCHIP now without the intervention of a guardian? That is fantastic if it’s true. Wasn’t last I checked. Still doesn’t account for the expediency problem — there’s still a potentially medically significant time cost in making and going to an appointment.
OzoneR
@TooManyJens:
I do.
TooManyJens
@OzoneR:
I have no words.
LT
@OzoneR:
You’re going to have to carry on with someone else. You don’t seem to know anything about actual troubled kids.
See ya.
Djur
@OzoneR: What does that have to do with my suggestion of mandatory pharmacist consults? Is there a reason we can’t have both? Can’t we leave a little space open for abuse victims who are too scared to go to the police, for whom a Walgreen’s is right down the street but the closest ER is miles away?
LT
She should have just talked to somebody! There’s always someone to talk to!
OzoneR
@Djur:
Why would they have to be enrolled without a guardian. I’m assuming they’re already enrolled before the conception.
LT
@TooManyJens:
Why did you go after me when I’ve been fighting shit like this?
Djur
@General Stuck: If my presence in this thread deters you from stinking up this place for even one day I’ll consider it a job well done, asshole. I hope you’re real proud of the things you did and said today, because I’m not going to let you forget it.
Evolving Deep Southerner (tense changed for accuracy)
I have no strong opinion here, and I can assure you I haven’t read all 500 of these posts. I just wanted to get down here at the end of a 500-post thread and see what it was like.
TooManyJens
@LT: Look, do you have to fucking start on me? All I said to you is that it was unreasonable to compare Mnemosyne to Rick Santorum. You want to make me the enemy for that, knock yourself out.
rb
@General Stuck: In theory, wouldn’t at least requiring the young girl to be “counseled” by a PharmD or some adult who can if the situation warrants, i.e. 10, 11, 12 or whatever the legal requirement is to report possible sex abuse of a minor be a better solution
The unexamined privilege running riot in this thread is just amazing. You always expect it around the subject of womenz and teh sex, but this is just beyond.
satby
OMFG, forest, meet trees. If 500 comments can sprout on this blog about this, imagine how many months we’d be listening to the Faux crowd whipping up low-info voters with “Obama wants your daughter to get the abortion pill without you knowing”. And the amphibian and Willard yammering about letting parents parent without “big government interference”. It’s like you all live in an alternate universe where science is how decisions are made. Take me to your utopia. I live in crazy country USA, where vaccines cause autism and the earth is 6000 years old.
OzoneR
@LT:
Excuse me, but you don’t seem to know anything about me. I was a troubled kid, and Boy, it would have been nice to know it was ok for me to talk to somebody about how I felt instead of having the “be a man! suck it up” ideal reinforced.
I’m for having troubled kids open up to adults, that’s why we have counselors, hotlines, etc. I wish we had more of those when I was a kid being bullied for being overweight and not being good in sports and thinking of suicide myself.
Guess what, there WERE adults I could talk to, they were there. I didn’t utilize them because I was led to believe THEY WEREN’T THERE.
All your doing is throwing your hands up and saying “Kids have no one to talk to, so oh well and how dare you imply they should go to an adult!”
I disagree and if thats makes me an awful person, fine. I want to see troubled kids getting help, I’m not interested in giving in and saying “they should deal with it themselves”
Djur
@OzoneR: “I’m assuming they’re already enrolled before the conception.” Because child abusers are known for their fastidious use of public services for their children, especially services that give their children access to adults who might detect and stop the abuse. You are just unbelievable.
bourbaki
@rb: THIS!
LT
@TooManyJens:
Ugh., That’s what you were responding to? That was a fucking joke. And an entirely appropriate one. Arguing that “11-year-olds aren’t supposed to be taking OTC drugs without parental supervision” is beyond dense. It didn’t have any christian meaning, it was just dense as to how the world actually works.
And can you give me a tiny break, when ppl like stuck are saying – well, you know.
rb
@General Stuck: Whether it be rape, most likely from a family member, or just generally about sex and sexuality. It doesn’t need to be a parent, and sometimes shouldn’t be. It can be a nurse at a high school clinic, another HC worker, or a trusted relative, or other adult that is trusted. And take it from there.
The unexamined privilege running riot in this thread is just amazing. You always expect it around the subject of womenz and teh sex, but this is just beyond.
Keith G
It sure seems that the doctors acting in good faith and in the best traditions of scientific inquiry said:
Without harming others, this solves a pressing medical issue.
The Obama administration said:
This causes political problems
And politics drop kicked science.
Quit obsessing about the sex lives of 11 yr olds (you sound like the right wing) and embrace that political expediency was chosen over medical science.
LT
@Djur:
Oy fucking weh. Well said, Djur.
John Cole, you should really get the trench gun out for this. This is too much.
Djur
@OzoneR:
That’s a great characterization of something that nobody in this thread is saying. You can both encourage children to report abuse and give them access to important medication. In fact, you can do both things with the same policy, which I suggested hours ago and which you persist in ignoring.
OzoneR
@Djur:
We should be far more concerned with why they’re too scared to go to the police.
rb
@General Stuck: Health care workers have mandated confidentiality, and most teens have some awareness of at least one adult in their lives they can trust.
Which is why Jerry Sandusky never happened, amirite?
Suffern ACE
@satby: Yeah. It’s kind of where I disagree that Sibelus was correct on the politics. Trying to avoid the “Liberals want to give birth control to 11 year olds without their parents knowing” billboards, she went ahead and introduced the 11 year olds to the discussion. And, as it turns out, lots of liberals do want to give 11 year olds birth control and will run into that discussion headlong.
General Stuck
@Djur:
Oh, lol, a threat. You are cold hearted sadistic liberal ideologue with like i said, the morals of a gold fish. I embrace everything I said on this thread, You simple shitstain. I been doing this shit on this blog for like ever, and will eat your motherfucking lunch and drink your motherfucking milkshake, all day every day. mouthy internet tough guys, the tubes are lousy with them.
I was going to leave this thread, but will stay just to see if you are as tough as you brag. Your move cupcake. we have all night and tomorrow, and the next day if need be.
OzoneR
@Djur:
Sure, you authorize law enforcement to distribute for minors who come to them reporting abuse.
Look, if I work in a pharmacy and a 14 year old is coming to me with Plan B in her hand, chances are I’m concerned enough to tell someone. It means to me she’s either being abused or doesn’t have access to contraception like condoms or birth control and that, to me, is a bigger problem.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@LT:
Says the genius who maintains that eleven year olds raped by their fathers are aware of the existence and need for Plan B, and can muster the emotional and financial wherewithal to acquire it within forty-eight hours of being raped.
amk
@satby: yup, the loony left being clueless as usual.
bin Lurkin'
@rb:
QFT..
OzoneR
@Djur:
These same children are unlikely to have to ability to go to CVS and purchase Plan B. So I don’t see your point.
When you go and buy a product from a CVS, you’re at a store, with adults, away from your abusers. There’s no reason for us not to be encouraging these children to walk up to a pharmacist at a store and say “I’m being abused, help me.”
dogwood
@Djur:
You’re absolutely right. It’s not the FDA’s job to get the President re-elected, and they did their job. However, it is Barack Obama’s job to get re-elected and like it or not he’s doing his job as well. A president is a head of state, head of government, commander in chief and head of his party. And as head of the party before an election he has obligations not only to try an insure his own re-election, but to not make it more difficult for down ticket Democrats to be able to support him and the party. If you think the 23 Dem. senators up for re-election want this fight, you are incredibly naive. I doubt many representative want to see this as a central issue either. I hate to break it to you, but OTC Plan B for minors ain’t gonna play well in the suburbs, and that’s increasingly where elections are won and lost.
For the record, I think the decision was entirely political, and I expect you won’t see any squawking from Democratic elected officials. I also believe that no matter how the election turns out, around this time next year there’s a better than 60% chance the Sec. of HHS will be satisfied with the new packaging instructions on Plan B.
Djur
@OzoneR: But we can do both! Why shouldn’t we make both solutions available if we can? Don’t you realize you’re making the perfect the enemy of the good?
We’re both talking about tiny numbers of people here: the number of very underage girls who may be harmed by the availability of Plan B versus the number of very underage girls who may be harmed by its unavailability. I think the latter group is larger than the former. More importantly, I also think there’s a much, much larger group of older girls (14-16) who will be harmed by lack of access to this important medication. The significance of 11-year-olds is only due to the HHS Secretary’s explicit invocation of their safety in overturning the FDA’s policy.
General Stuck
@rb:
So, mark up another good libtard willing to make available chemical birth control methods over the counter to 11 year olds. You and the rest of the fools on this thread, need to get away from the politicking and reactionary bullshit that is making you support such things. Bringing up the Penn State horrors has nothing to do with what we are talking about concerning birth control You fucking moron.
rikyrah
@LT:
I was sorta freaked out when I thought folks were just talking about teenagers would be using it. Once it went to pre-teens…and that people could talk calmly about pre-teens getting it without a prescription…I’ve been shaking my head all throughout this thread.
Djur
@dogwood:
Sure. I am only disputing the people who are saying that it isn’t, because to admit that the Obama administration made a political choice on a regulatory and rights issue is to admit that the hated EmoBaggers are right about something. I also don’t think it’s right for the Obama administration to make this particular political decision, but that’s a discussion I have much, much more sympathy for the opposing side on.
TooManyJens
@OzoneR:
Having minors talk to a pharmacist was suggested upthread by people you accuse of not wanting abused kids to talk to adults.
Requiring a prescription is not the same thing as having to walk up to a pharmacist. The former is a much higher barrier in terms of cost, access, and time.
General Stuck
@Djur:
And again, Obama and Sebellius did the right thing, and you are a soul less snake of the first order promoting otc for minor children. you are an abomination that is only exceeded by your flip side wingnuts you oppose, and in this case, you are far worse than even them. And that goes for the rest of you fucking lunatics supporting this. you will trust the fucking FDA, as (cough) science, and worship at that alter rather than falling on the side of safety for kids.
bin Lurkin'
@rikyrah: People have been
calmlytalking about how pre teens getting pregnant is good because then their rapists will be caught and punished.OzoneR
@Djur:
i don’t see this as “good”
We’re talking about abused girls here. What would happen in a situation where we find out a 14 year old girl killed herself because she was being repeatedly raped by her father/uncle/cousin and we all ask ourselves “why did no one know or do anything?” and then we discover she went to a pharmacy and bought Plan B.
The first thing we would all say, ALL OF US INCLUDING YOU, would be “why didn’t that guy at CVS suspect something when he saw that girl buying Plan B?”
Like I said before, when i was a 19 year old coming to buy Plan B, I don’t pay attention- she’s of legal age, when i see a 14 year old coming to buy Plan B, I see someone who needs help, whether it be safety from an abuser, or someone who needs to learn about condoms and birth control.
What you’re saying here is we should be saying “You should tell someone, but it’s ok if you don’t want to and here’s a way to fix it and you don’t need to tell anyone!”
It’s not ok to not want to.
Djur
@General Stuck: You’re accusing us of “politicking” and being reactionary? You’re bonkers.
“libtard”? Jesus, when are you going to change your party registration back to Republican? It’s obvious you’re halfway there already.
@OzoneR:
…
Which… is… why… I proposed a regulation two hours ago to make that more likely. What the fuck is your problem?
I mean… what the hell?
LT
@rikyrah:
The main reason for wanting this remarkably effective and safe medication to go OTC was to make it more readily available to women 15-17 – especially them – where there is a high rate of unplanned pregnancy. It was studied for girls younger – even though the pregnancy numbers are much lower, but much more dangerous for the girls and the kids – and and it was determined that it was safe to go OTC even for them.
Are you getting this?
http://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/TeenPregnancy/
Djur
@General Stuck: Are you still honestly trying to suggest that pregnancy is safer than Plan B for kids? Where the fuck are your studies? Where’s your evidence, man?
I’m a “soulless snake” for wanting teenagers to have a cheap, safe alternative to a dangerous pregnancy and an expensive, potentially difficult to obtain abortion? Why do you keep on using words that describe your position to describe your enemies?
rb
@OzoneR: That’s a cop out, there’s always an adult to talk to.
BULLSHIT. You entitled, privileged motherfuckers need to shut the fuck up. This sort of ignorance is more offensive than anything else in this thread.
bourbaki
@LT: I’m sorry but I think you are wasting your time. I’m sure rikyrah (like our good Republican friend Stuck) just finds the whole thing “icky”.
bin Lurkin'
@General Stuck: Again, if Obama and Sibelius had made the opposite decision to let young women have plan B and wingnuts were in here complaining about it you would be making exactly the opposite arguments with every bit as much vehemence you are arguments for keeping plan B away from kids.
We can all see it’s about Obama and not about the kids with you because you don’t care that they can go and buy a large bottle of acetaminophen that will kill them as dead as Dick Cheney’s soul in hours to days.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@bin Lurkin’: I missed those comments. I myself pointed out that an expensive pill that is only effective within an extremely limited timeframe is probably not relevant to the needs of pre-teen girls trapped in abusive, incestuous situations, even assuming said victims were, at the age of 11 or 12, sitcom precocious and aware of the existence of the Plan B pill, and that after having suffered that kind of trauma, these very young girls would be thinking about pregnancy. And that makes it kind of cheap, demagogic and emotionally exploitive to relentlessly drag those cases in to this discussion.
LT
@bourbaki: I’ve wasted far too much time here.
bourbaki
@LT: No you’ve fought the good fight. For that I commend you.
Corner Stone
This is a great thread. So clear.
General Stuck
@Djur:
And your first comment to me on this thread. This comment should disqualify your stupid ass, as well as anyone else making the same argument, even doctors.The people acting like this is some kind of major safety issue are fucking ridiculous, though. Acetaminophen is sold in huge jugs on the shelf at Walgreen’s, and it kills 450 people a year.
Djur
@LT: @bourbaki: Yeah, I’m out. OzoneR isn’t even bothering to read what he’s responding to, and General Stuck is a mendacity golem powered by spite and an unseemly authoritarian allegiance to a man who wouldn’t want it.
Keith G
@dogwood:
So where would you draw the line? I hear waterboarding has good support in suburban America.
bin Lurkin'
@rb:
It’s worse than ignorance, they’re deliberately lying about it, nobody is that privileged or that stupid.
LT
@Djur:
Such a good spot to jump from. Thank you!
to the beach. And pub!
bin Lurkin'
@General Stuck:
You’re right, it’s an unfair comparison, Plan B is far safer than Tylenol.
Suffern ACE
@General Stuck: UMMMMMMMM. The answer to that question was “Yes, it is safe for teenagers to take the drug without seeing a doctor.”
rb
@General Stuck: So, mark up another good libtard willing to make available chemical birth control methods over the counter to 11 year olds. You and the rest of the fools on this thread, need to get away from the politicking and reactionary bullshit that is making you support such things. Bringing up the Penn State horrors has nothing to do with what we are talking about concerning birth control You fucking moron.
Please, twit. Go back to thigh rubbing. It’s your kind of thread, after all.
rb
@bin Lurkin’: It’s worse than ignorance, they’re deliberately lying about it, nobody is that privileged or that stupid.
Heh, perhaps. Not sure if it’s worse if you’re right, or not.
General Stuck
@Djur:
No, you fuckhead. I am saying making available chemical birth control otc is fucking insane for children. Are you really arguing that preventing a pregnancy is okay, no matter what the consequences? For children, so young, they don’t know what they are doing.
And because a bunch of FDA doctors want the PRODUCT to be sold to everyone, even 11 year olds. They are scum, and care more about profit in their pharma stocks, more than anything else. again vi ox, and a bunch of other shit approved that shouldn’t have been. and ended up killing a bunch of people.
You are arguing that kids aware enough to know a pill at the drug store will fix a problem, cannot come to a conclusion, or would be less likely to conclude they are in trouble, and would not decide to tell an adult, if the pill was not available. Think about this circular logic.
Keith G
@Corner Stone: Its been entertaining and informative in a sad, little kinda way.
General Stuck
@Suffern ACE:
You know this how, cause the FDA tells you so. Are you stupid?
Are you unaware of their track record for killing people recently with their “safe” declarations, and you want to let children, without the support of a doctor, to rest easy on these profit minded motherfuckers.
bourbaki
I think this wins the thread. Perhaps it should be made a tag.
Keith G
And don’t forget the FDA also says that measles vaccines are safe.
Those lying bastards!!!
General Stuck
Later alligators – don’t take no wooden nickels
signing off
Keith G
@General Stuck: buenos noches
bin Lurkin'
Well, now the FDA has become the spittle flecked enemy.
Sibelius good, FDA bad.
I’m shocked, shocked I tell you.
alec
Wow, the degree of ignorance of basic pharmaceutical practice on display here is staggering. One of these guys keeps on asserting that children (and let’s not mince words, that’s what an 11-year-old is – a reproductively mature CHILD) being able to acquire Plan B somehow preempts the involvement of adults in the possibility of abuse.
Pharmacists are trained to deal with delicate issues of the appropriateness of drug use all the time. They’re not robots or loyal St. Bernards, trained or programmed to dispense helpful pills to all and sundry. They take their jobs very seriously and a child purchasing Plan B would be the mother of all red flags, well into valu-size Tylenol and grain spirits territory.
If we can take as granted that an 11-year-old is not in the physical or mental shape to give birth to a living, breathing baby (and if we can’t, I’m not sure what else we have to discuss, because you seem to have a different definition of the number 11 than I do), and that the possibility of her being pregnant represents a crisis worthy of immediate and effective attention, I’m not exactly sure why a swim coach or a youth minister is a better disinterested adult than a pharmacist.
Full disclosure: I am in the pocket of Big Heart Attack.
Suffern ACE
@General Stuck: Well, yah got me. You changed my mind. I now think Kathleen Sebelius is perhaps the most craven member of Obama’s cabinet for not unwinding the hold that the drug companies have over the FDA, putting profit over people. She should have been on the job all along, but waited 3 fricking years to take such a bold stand for common sense based drug laws. Where has she been all this time?
When she said “I reviewed and thoughtfully considered the data, clinical information, and analysis provided by CDER, and I agree with the Center that there is adequate and reasonable, well-supported, and science-based evidence that Plan B One-Step is safe and effective and should be approved for nonprescription use for all females of child-bearing potential,” she was lying through her teeth. I’ll never trust a word that ***** says again.
alec
I’m being extensively moderated for using the name of a drug, but allow me to just say that I love General Stack’s rebuttal to Djur’s reasonable query – ‘what studies are there to say that Plan B is more dangerous than pregnancy’ – is, in full, the word “fuckhead”.
Corner Stone
If Sibelius approved of sticking your dick in a wood chipper there’s a certain contingent here who’d be looking for rentals.
Bush Admin punts Plan B = “How dare they?!”
Obama Admin punts Plan B = “Meh. Status quo.”
dogwood
@Keith G:
Is this what you mean by being “entertaining and informative in a sad, little kinda way”? We have people arguing that OTC Plan B for an 11 year old is going to prevent her from pregnancy when she is being repeatedly raped by a family member. Where she would get the money to purchase this “product” is beyond me. I’ve taught adolescents for close to 40 years, and these guys don’t do it once and stop. It’s ongoing and it escalates. It would take a few hundred dollars a month to protect this poor child from pregnancy, and no one has commented on the safety of using this product perhaps a couple of times a week. But if limiting her access is the same as supporting waterboarding, then heck you’ve really given me something to think about. Maybe if Newt becomes president she, and all the other young women, will at least be able to use the money they earn as school janitors to help defray the cost of contraception.
amk
@Corner Stone: As opposed to certain contingent here that thinks,nay demands, that Obama should walk into the buzz saw everyday, with his eyes open no less, so that their every fucking liberal fantasy will somehow come true.
not motorik
Stuff like this always causes ABL to mysteriously absent herself from this blog.
So the decision has an upside, at least.
eemom
It is y’all who need a pill. A hockey-puck sized Va1ium, as Cole says. Sheesh. What a night.
eemom
Oh, and the General is right, and a lot of you folks have deliberately twisted what he said.
The argument that 11 year olds should be given OTC access to this drug on the theory that it will somehow PROTECT them from the horrifying consequences of sexual abuse is so motherfucking fucked up that I don’t even know where to start.
And Stuck is also absolutely right that the attitude exemplified by DougJ’s dumbass statement at the top of this mess
is knee-jerk “liberalism” at its worst. This is NOT A SIMPLE ISSUE, and I’ll wager Doug made his descent into “profound depression” without giving the matter ten second’s worth of thought.
eemom
@not motorik:
So you show up at the bottom of the thing to sling shit at ABL for an absence which is clearly not “mysterious” at all to your all-knowing all-seeing self.
That’s quite a feat. I didn’t know it was even POSSIBLE to be that much of an asshole.
Admiral_Komack
@OzoneR:
I agree with you.
Djur
@eemom: So you agree that the FDA made this choice just to give evil Big Pharma profits, and that forcing minors to become pregnant is a good way to prevent child rape? Those are the arguments he was using. If it was Jane Hamsher saying that the evil Obama FDA was making decisions under the sinister influence of Big Pharma you’d be tearing her to pieces and you know it. You’re just like Stuck — seeing firebaggers in every shadowy corner and suspiciously-shaped stack of firewood.
Mnemosyne
@Djur:
Of course there’s a scientific approach to determining the reading comprehension level of a piece of writing. I’m not getting LT’s absolute conviction that the phrase “science-based evidence” specifically refers to Sebelius’s worries about the reading comprehension level of the labeling and not to, you know, all of the other science-based evidence regarding Plan B.
@Keith G:
From your link:
Yep, all a girl has to do is take Plan B and all her problems are solved. No follow-up necessary, so there’s no need for her to understand any complicated instructions like, “Hey, you may still be pregnant even after taking this, so this is what to watch for.”
Djur
@Mnemosyne: “Yep, all a girl has to do is take Plan B and all her problems are solved.”
The fact that someone might still be pregnant after taking Plan B is not a reason to delay them from taking Plan B, especially since that reduces the likelihood of it working. It is definitely a good reason to have them talk to a pharmacist when they purchase it, though.
Even without that, I’m still not clear on what the harm is of a girl taking Plan B without followup that isn’t identical to the consequences of not taking it at all.
Mnemosyne
@Djur:
Also, too — to me, Dr. Hamburg’s objection seems to be that she feels Sebelius brought up this last-minute hurdle out of left field, not that the reading comprehension question was clearly answered and Sebelius overrode it despite already having the answer (which would be — yes — overriding science).
Again, anyone with a boss knows what it’s like to present a report or project to her, only to have her bring something up from out of left field that you don’t have an answer for because it didn’t even occur to you that she would think something that minor would be an issue. That’s what Dr. Hamburg’s frustration sounded like to me.
Mnemosyne
@Djur:
Keith G was in the contingent saying that there was no reason to worry that an 11-year-old might have trouble comprehending the package instructions because taking Plan B is so very easy — pop a pill, and your troubles are over! But what seem like simple and easy instructions to an adult are not necessarily so clear to an 11-year-old.
Just to be clear, since a whole lot of weirdness has come up in this thread, I don’t actually have any objection to sexually active girls of any age being allowed to buy Plan B. I just want to be sure that even very young girls understand what they’re taking and what additional things they need to watch out for after taking it, which is what Sebelius says her objection to the packaging was.
(ETA: I think we need to take those extra precautions beyond those of other OTC drugs because we have to assume that a girl taking Plan B doesn’t have adults she can turn to who can help her if she doesn’t understand how it works or what to do next.)
I agree with dogwood — I think this is a hitch that will probably be solved within a few months, not an attempt to permanently prevent access. It’s more likely than not to be political, but I also don’t think it’s a self-evidently completely crazy thing to worry about.
William Hurley
More proof that Obama will sell-out any so-called “principal” for the prospect of political gain with the right.
As complementary evidence, I offer this montage of Jay Carney’s hackish FAIL when attempting to rewrite the history of his boss’s Presidency.
Jay Carney, Despite Evidence, Says Economists Didn’t Know How Bad The Recession Would Get
The problem we on the left face now is that Obama’s destined to lose the White House and, in the process, will starve “down-ticket” candidates of the funds they’ll need to remain competitive in their races because, as David Axelrod said today, down ticket Dems will be outspent by outside groups supporting the GOP’s “down ticket” candidates.
dogwood
@Mnemosyne:
Hey, you fought the good fight. But you’ve got to understand this thread had nothing to do with PlanB for minors. Have you ever heard any of these people in the past writing about how anxious they were for the FDA to approve the pill for minors? Of course not. It didn’t cross their minds. The administration made what is probably a temporary but very political decision, and the usual suspects come forward to politicize it to their advantage. Hours ago in the thread Martin was correct. As someone who has worked with teens for almost 40 years, they have access to Plan B. If they can’t go to their parents, they have older sisters, cousins, friends, friends of friends. And believe it or not, if it were available to them over the counter, many of these young women would still go to their older contacts to buy it for them.
amk
@William Hurley: Hey firebagger, first of, learn the difference between principal and principle. Clueless troll.
dogwood
@William Hurley:
What does Jay Carney’s spin in the press room about the recession have to do with selling out to the right?
If you’re concerned that Obama will raise too much money, just make sure you don’t send him any and all will be fine.
But, seriously if you think the money advantage that Republicans will have in the next election has anything to do with Barack Obama, you are delusional. This is the reality of politics post Citizens Untied, and its the cross Democrats will bear for decades. Barack Obama had nothing to do with that decision.
dogwood
@amk:
Oh come on. He’s a real American. Maybe he can’t spell the word, but he feels it. Spellin is for sellout elitists.
William Hurley
@amk:
Thanks for catching the my grammatical slip.
Too bad the truth of my post eluded you.
When will you experience your “smell the coffee” moment and wake-up? Will it be when Obama approves the re-routed XL/Koch Bros. tar sands pipeline? Will it be after after his secret war on yet another country is exposed by actions intentional or accidental? Will it be after another American citizen is murdered by Presidential fiat? Will it be after he “reforms” parts of all of Social Security? Will it be after 30 million Americans are out of work or hand-cuffed to menial wage-slave jobs?
Will it be after he again pretends that he’s beholden to his appointees for affect when his policy choices are so blatantly draconian and GOP-ish that he has to hide behind them as political human shields?
When will reality crack your shell?
Do you even know what your threshold for tolerating Republican policies in Blue wrapping is?
Amir Khalid
This must be the longest comment thread I’ve seen here that didn’t include a flame war starring m_c.
I’m pretty much in full agreement with Mnemosyne. The only issue that Kathleen Sebelius raised in not approving the over-the-counter sale of Plan B to girls under 17 was whether girls as young as 11 could understand the label, which of course does need to convey more than “Just swallow the pill”. Because a few 11-year old girls might indeed need to take Plan B, all by themselves, under whatever circumstances. She was not satisfied that the manufacturer had ensured that an 11 year old could understand the label, and she wants that taken care of. Pending which, the status quo is to remain: to get Plan before she is 17, a girl needs a prescription. Evidently Sebelius and the FDa’s scientists don’t see eye to eye on this, but she’s acting within her authority and her position is not blatantly in error.
There is no real evidence of bad faith or political calculation on Sebelius’ part, despite plenty of speculation about it on this thread. I said, and soonergrunt concurred, that as a matter of leadership Obama wisely chose to stay out of this matter which was entirely within her purview. And I agree with dogwood and Mnemosyne that Sebelius might well change her position once the manufacturer of Plan B has revised the label to her satisfaction.
amk
@William Hurley: When the lying clueless firebaggers get a clue, that’s when. But by then, it’s you who would have seen the light. Hopefully.
dogwood
@William Hurley:
Are you even old enough to vote? You sound exactly like an ex-high school student of mine who’s forgoing college to run around the country for Ron Paul. I love the kid, but he knows nothing about the complexity of decision making at any level in life. You just always following these simple principles and make your followers feel good. That’s what Ron Paul does and he’s been an especially effective legislator for people who live in lala land. Campaign for Liberty! Yahoo!
William Hurley
@dogwood:
Addressing your misconstrued reading of my post, in inverse order.
1) CU & Obama. The point I made is one I’ve been making for nearly a year on this site and others. That point is the same point that an Obama supporter of no less standing than David Axelrod now also says will be the case. In short, Obama’s been so weak, so willing to adopt GOP themes asn policies of his own and to chase right-wing voters that he’ll need to raise and spend at least the $1 billion he declared he’ll need to raise to be competitive. As such, Obama and OFA and the DNC will vacuum-up any and every available dollar and thereby, again as Axelrod says, leave down-ticket candidates “on their own” – which is a polite way of telling them they’re on their own when it comes to money.
How you got to your assumption that I was blaming Obama for the CU decision is beyond logic.
2) I don’t plan on sending Obama any money. I may volunteer post-convention, as I did in ’08. But, any donations will go “down ticket”.
3) Carney’s revisionist face-plant is nothing less than physical evidence that the o-bot programming that is repeated ad nauseam is flat out wrong.
It shows that Carney and his fellows at 1600 PA Ave are ready and willing to lie about the facts of the past and to blame others for their own willful adoption of, in this case, the conservatives’ “analysis” of the down turn and their notion of proper remedy.
Had Obama taken cues from Romer and Goolsbee instead of Timmeh! and Larry, he might have put forth a stimulus proposal that was A) appropriate to the scale to actual problem and B) consisted of more actual cash outflows than tax cuts – the former being more stimulative than the latter. But then again, tax cuts are how the right does things and you know Obama, if it ain’t right its wrong.
FlipYrWhig
I’m not sure why it’s so ethically monstrous to want Plan B available over the counter. That’s kind of why the FDA did the study. I have a hard time thinking that they didn’t factor in all the concerns being raised here. As for the narrow point about instructions and packaging, it sounds like the FDA rep didn’t buy Sebelius’s explanation, which is why they’re somewhat talking past each other. I don’t know what the REAL basis was; I suspect it was political, an attempt to avoid a fight over how Obamacare sexualizes young girls, and that these labeling concerns are just a pretext, albeit a pretext that may be not without some abstract merit.
FlipYrWhig
@William Hurley: Dude, find a thread about that. On this one there are other things going on.
Amir Khalid
@Amir Khalid:
(*Alongside all the usual second-guessing, of course.)
William Hurley
@dogwood:
Are you sure you teach high school, or is it actually the case that you aspire to that position – a job you aspire to now because high school teachers are the only adults you interact with on a daily basis (your parents excepted of course).
If you had elected to follow the very plain structure of the post you responded to and the post preceding it, you’d have known the progression was logical and the questions both fair and factually based.
However, you chose to exercise your wit differently, poorly at that, thus my opening in this post provided as a counter-balance.
boss bitch
#601
William Hurley
@FlipYrWhig:
As usual, flpr, you speak (write) about things you do not understand.
Obama’s “Plan B”etrayal is simply another in a long line of Republican policies draped in Blue – this time with the blood of Sebelius’ integrity staining the paper it’s written on.
Doesn’t it occur to you or any other o-botic ‘droids that Obama’s anti-woman, patriarchy is the opposite of good politics – especially in the wake of the right’s “over-reach” on the issue of reproductive freedom as evidenced by the voters of Mississippi?
As I asked above, how far to the right are you willing to watch Obama go before you begin to rethink your reactionary defense of him and his policies?
dogwood
@William Hurley:
Thanks for the link. I read the entire article. Sorry, but I don’t interpret it the way you do. I know you want to believe that the money that is going to pour into Republican coffers due to the CU decision is only going to materialize because Obama is such a horrible president. But that’s not the case. It wouldn’t matter what policies the president followed, the die was cast when the CU decision came down. The stimulus package you preferred would have been my preference as well, but Congress wasn’t interested. Axelrod is correct. There simply isn’t enough big money on the Democratic side to match the Koch Brothers, the Chamber of Commerce etc. That’s the reality and the American people will live with it. These people are not going to accept any regulation or paltry tax increase ever. And they have the money to back it up.
dogwood
@William Hurley:
For someone who calls people here obotic droids its hard to believe you’d be offended by being compared to a very earnest Ron Paul kid.
Politicians will always disappoint. Forgive me for assuming you are young. Perhaps you are older than your idealism suggests. But I will freely admit to having limited expectations of politicians and presidents in particular. I judge presidential accomplishments within the context of the state of the nation, the make-up of Congress and the world events that shape his tenure. This tends to make me less critical than the average partisan. I just know that no matter what we want to believe, presidents are never as powerful as we want them to be or fear they may be. If being angry at the president makes you feel better and more proactive, I’m all for it. I’m just tired of being berated because it’s not in my nature to be outraged at all times over every decision any president makes.
Quiddity
@Djur: If there is any doubt that this blog is 100% Obot, this post and comment thread is proof. Listen to the conspiracy-theories spun out. Plan B OTC is nothing more than a Big Pharma plot. Those who criticize Obama are emo WATB – or whatever the turn of phrase that’s hot this month. Or that Obama’s father-of-two-daughters reasoning trumps an thorough FDA inquiry. But then the FDA is corrupt, much like the EPA that also got stiffed by Obama earlier this year. It’s pathetic. Very cult-like though.
amk
@Quiddity: unlike the firebagger groupies stoned on reason and intellect alone, amirit?
pluege
I am profoundly depressed by it.
hey, you’re heart throb o-bambambam-a supports it, so it must be great and progressive by definition. just block the whole thing oput of your pea brain so you can go on drooling over obama
eemom
@Djur:
No, those were not the arguments he was using — most especially not the second one, which is exactly what I meant when I said you twisted what he said in the mania of strawmannery that is so very common on threads like this.
(Yes, I used the word “strawman”. I will hate myself in the morning.)
dogwood
@Quiddity:
Serious question: If you find this place to be a 100% Obot cult-like venue, why frequent the place? If that were my impression, I certainly wouldn’t read this blog. I mean there really are some embarrassing Obama sites run by well -meaning people who are way over the top. But there also must be thousands of anti-Obama blogs were you can find like-minded people. I certainly wouldn’t take the time to drop by some Obama fan blog to tell them I think they’re making fools of themselves. What’s the point?
eemom
@Amir Khalid:
And that is exactly the standard to which she would be held under the applicable administrative law, were someone to challenge her decision in court.
eemom
@Amir Khalid:
….and speaking of tiresome toddlers with delusions of grandeur, I actually just had a nightmare wherein toko-loko was hired by my litigation adversary to chase me around the house waving a copy of the unfavorable case law.
I’ll take “How do you know you’ve been reading a blog WAY too fucking long” for $500, Alex.
dogwood
I suppose people should enjoy these types of threads while they last. This one is actually nothing compared to what’s going to happen when the payroll tax is set to expire. For the record, I think everyone should commit right now to the position they want the President to take, so they can’t all go to their respective corners after the fact. This thread was so long and contentious because the last few weeks the Republicans have been center stage here. That takes countless people out of the comment threads. There’s just a certain type of liberal who can never hate Republicans the way he hates Democrats. But come Jan. 3, and the Iowa caucuses, I have a feeling this place will be GOPcentric again.
El Cid
@eemom: I had no particular opinions (no ability to answer the who, what, why, where, and when of the issue at all) and this was an astoundingly cynical declaration of principles by DougJ.
The question to follows such a declaration should therefore be, why are you discussing anything at all?
Any possible answer has already been covered by the declaration of non-dependence — my response will not depend upon the activities of the administration, because it is Democratic, and not Republican.
This is a blog and people make comments. Presumably then there’s some degree of interest in people reasoning stuff out, and is not restricted to a tactical discussion of nuts and bolts party political matters.
If the sole purpose of any issue or policy discussion is the final paragraph or addendum in which one declares that because of and/or despite the foregoing, it is still recommended to vote for X, then why discuss in the first place?
Why would I spend a single moment thinking about a single issue whatsoever? It would be a waste of time.
If the only effectively moral purpose of an issue or policy discussion is YES BUT WOULD YOU HAVE Z IN OFFICE INSTEAD, then there’s no point in me thinking about the matter, much less commenting and arguing about it.
Someone asks, and you need only respond, ‘I may or may not agree with policy decision X, given that I have no prior interest in understanding it, but I would not prefer Republicans in the elected position under discussion, so no further discussion or investigation is necessary.’
Why would anyone think about issues or policy matters? Here, or anywhere else for that matter?
Keith G
@El Cid: You touch on what is a bad off-shoot of this time of intense partisan division. With our political partisans so locked into supporting (or defeating)a given politician no matter what, where is the political accountability? How much silliness, how much bad decision making, or how much corruption is to be tolerated just because we don’t want the other guys in power?
Is it wise to give any human or any group of humans that type of blank check? I love this Obama fella, and he is just a man, just one politician in the long history of this land.
While this one discussion(?) is over a very important public health policy, it is of a piece of many discussions about political accountability. I think we need to get better at this if we are ever going to get better government.
Snowball
@William Hurley:
Jimmy Carter promised health care reform but once elected he didn’t even bother (as a result Edward Kennedy primaried him).
Bill Clinton promised health care reform but once elected he couldn’t even get Congress to even bring it up for a vote.
So are you saying these two Presidents are even further to the right of President Obama considering President Obama has gotten a hell of a lot of more accomplished when it comes to health care reform than either Carter or Clinton?
And you do realize that President Obama is ending the war in Iraq? As promised I might add.
It amazes me to see some of the untruths that are said about President Obama whether it comes from the left or from the right.
chopper
@LT:
yes. do you realize that this policy is intended to effect children as young as 11?
OzoneR
@Djur:
you proposed regulation that already exists.
chopper
@William Hurley:
i really hope you didn’t stay up all night coming up with that one.
chopper
@eemom:
exactly. otherwise people would have sued the government long ago to force them to uphold the more extreme policy recommendations of government climate scientists like james hansen.
the FDA is a great organization, but government scientists are not unimpeachable policy makers. i work for the federal government, our organization’s policy proposals are not bulletproof. my FIL is an NIH research scientist and no, any policy proposals his organization churns out regarding cancer medication should not carry the weight of law just because ‘they’re scientists’. the same goes for climate scientists as i’ve mentioned before – there are plenty of US climate scientists who advocate very extreme measures to mitigate climate change, but the WH deciding not to implement them does not make the president ‘anti-science’.
El Cid
@Keith G: Thing is, this isn’t even a decisionmaking forum. It really is okay for people to think through issues however they think the issue or policy relates, and then make whatever tactical decision they make. They don’t have to pre-decide how to decide every issue. If you can’t freely wander through or spout off your way through the issues in a consequence-free place like this, then where is the space for that sort of thought? No where? Does it always begin and end with a declaration of the voting endpoint, making the rest of it a waste of time?
chopper
@OzoneR:
is there some federal regulation requiring pharmacists to council with a child over how and when to take a medication they intend to buy and self-administer, side-effects etc? i doubt it given stories about some pharmacists refusing to dispense stuff like prescribed birth control to children. if in fact this regulation exists and is pretty strict, then the arguments over the clarity of the packaging are kinda moot, right? if a pharmacist must explain all the shit to an 11 year old so that the kid can responsibly administer it ‘as directed’ then the directions don’t need to be any more clear than regular OTC shit like tylenol.
somehow i doubt that this regulation is out there, or is strict enough to fix the problem here.
chopper
@dogwood:
this thread was so long and contentious because this was an area of policy nobody here knew or cared much about until this decision. so most people were coming to their opinion as they argued, instead of starting out with a solid point of view.
El Cid
@chopper: I’m pretty sure this is the case for almost every issue.
Xboxershorts
@chopper:
The headlines themselves have been misleading and inflammatory and I think people are forming opinion, often based solely on the headline.
Raw Story’s headline was “Obama backs plan B restrictions”
Which if you dig into the background by using Google, you realize the president never said anything remotely like that.
What he said was he stands behind his HHS secretary. For him to publicly criticize Sebelius would be tantamount to asking Sebelius to resign. And he’s not prepared for that.
And Sebelius’ only sttatement was that the language of the packaging was not likely to be clear for all woman of child rearing age. This includes a subset of pre-teens.
but the firebaggers and doomsayers jump on the Raw Story headline and demand Obama’s head. For what? To NOT MODIFY EXISTING POLICY AT THIS TIME?!?!??!?!?!
What the fuck you idiots.
A vote for 3rd party in THIS election is a vote for the republican party. Might as well give the GoP all 3 branches of government.
And back to the headlines…THEY ARE INFLAMMATORY
Why is every fucking headline on this so inflammatory? If the headline were more accurate, say “Sebelius denies expansion of Plan -B access” would you still be calling for Obama’s head?
Does anyone else not see how the manipulation of the phrasing is being used to split the liberal base?
You are all being played against each other. One giant Lee Atwater style skull fuck being played by the largest partisan message machine outside of communist China.
Wake Up!
eemom
@El Cid:
this was a spectacularly lazy POS post, so cavalier as to border on offensive.
You claim to be “profoundly depressed” by the determination on a hugely controversial issue of major importance to children’s health that you obviously invested ZERO effort in thinking through? Really DougJ?
But, we all know he is usually better than this and everyone fucks up sometimes.