<blank stare>
I’d like to say I’m surprised that this sort of crap goes on at American fraternities, but we’re living in the Golden Age of Women Hate. At least it feels like that, doesn’t it? The age where:
- allegations of sexual assault result in higher donations for would-be presidential candidates;
- “respected” writers blame victims of assault instead of perpetrators (see this post, also);
- stories about raping minors for profit barely register on the media’s radar;
- high school cheerleaders are thrown off the squad for refusing to cheer on their rapists;
- elected officials liken pregnancy by rape to getting a flat tire;
- elected officials opine that women will lie about rape in order to obtain free abortions;
- Republicans try to redefine rape in order to deny women abortion rights;
- and on and on (honestly, I searched the word “rape” on my blog intending to create a comprehensive list, but I got so depressed that I decided to pour myself some Jameson’s.)
Sigh.
So yes, this bit of news is so incredibly horrifying, but sadly, unsurprising:
The University of Vermont chapter of fraternity Sigma Phi Epsilon is being suspended for passing out a survey to its members that asked questions including, “If I could rape someone, who would it be?” The university may take further disciplinary action, and women on campus are circulating a petition to have the chapter shutdown entirely that has already received over 1,000 signatures. The incident is the latest in a long series of rape-promoting stunts by fraternity members at American universities.
I think I’ll go finish that drink now.
[via Think Progress]
[cross-posted at Angry Black Lady Chronicles]
taylormattd
I’ll have one too ABL.
Litlebritdifrnt
And in related news Orly Taitz is championing a convicted rapist in his NC Electoral Board challenge against POTUS.
http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=6939&start=100
She has already threatened the NC Elections Board General Counsel with “criminal charges” cause he didn’t respond to her felon client the way she liked.
Orly and her rapist are shitting in my (and other Fogbow peeps) back yard now. I have already e-mailed the NC State Bar UPL Division head. It is not going to be pretty.
gelfling545
And I can just picture the frat members sitting around complaining about how women just can’t take a joke. Blah. Please pass the bottle.
Violet
I would turn that around and say we’re living in a Golden Age of Women’s Empowerment and Strength and the reason there is so much crap like this happening is that the parts of society that have traditionally been in control are reacting against women being strong, independent and empowered. Reacting very badly. But 40 or 50 years ago many of these girls and women would not have had anyone pay any attention to their plights, let alone be able to bring lawsuits. Things are better now. It’s just hard to see.
The stories are still awful. Things like this shouldn’t be happening at all.
Elisabeth
How in the world does anyone think this is appropriate?!
Linda Featheringill
sigh.
I don’t even have any booze in the house. Can you get high on fluoxetine? Or at least mellow?
Lojasmo
WTF. Not that it makes it any worse, really, but was it, as I imagine, multiple choice?
chopper
and why is a penn state banner ad coming up on this page?
Villago Delenda Est
@gelfling545:
Yup. That’s precisely the reaction I’d expect.
Sad that I’d expect that, but that’s how things are.
Arclite
@Lojasmo:
It’s a frat. All tests are True/False.
Ivan Ivanovich Renko
These stories resonate because it’s no longer acceptable to society. Kind of the way outright white supremacist shit is frowned upon nowadays, when a few years ago it was de rigeur.
But Jameson’s? Don’t you have any Bushmills in the house?
Roger Moore
I know it’s hard to believe, but as bad as things are now they’re actually better than they used to be. At least the university is coming down on these assholes like a ton of bricks. 20 years ago, this might well have been laughed off as boys being boys. 20 years before that, people had a hard time accepting that date rape was really rape, and in many places marital rape wasn’t a crime. Progress may be much to slow on this point, but at least we’re moving slowly, fitfully in the right direction.
Canuckistani Tom
@Violet:
First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win
Looks like stage 3 to me.
burnspbesq
Frat boys are stupid. Imagine my surprise.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
I’ll join you in that drink, ABL, but we gotta make sure we don’t overdo it, because the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board says if we do we’ll get all raped and stuff and they will just sadly shake their heads and say “I told you so.”
Roger Moore
@Ivan Ivanovich Renko:
I just don’t get the attraction of Irish Whisky. Give me Bourbon or Single Malt Scotch any day.
FlipYrWhig
Somehow “rape” got to be a “funny” word in the last, say, 3 to 5 years. I guess because it’s so inappropriate? Like, “Dude, that test totally raped my ass.”
IMHO, from way outside, it seems like it came from the creepy macho displays and egging-ons of the worst side of gamer culture.
Adolphus
@burnspbesq:
I agree. Frat boys behaving like assholes? I’m shocked, just shocked.
When I was in college shit like this went on all the time and this would have been mild. People have good reason to be disgusted. But I am heartened that it a) made news and b) the college seems to be doing something.
Cold comfort, I know, but the trend is good.
b-psycho
Would “whoever came up with this stupid, disgusting questionnaire” be an appropriate response?
Arclite
@FlipYrWhig:
Like this guy? (NSFW)
moderateindy
Fake outrage alert………… Give me a break. This is not a story to get all worked up about. A bunch of 18-22 year old guys doing something inappropriate, Oh my lets make a big deal out of this. They should be punished. Oh wait, they were. Well that’s not good enough hrumph, hrumph rabble rabble. Snore! Some moron writes a truly distasteful joke and ABL wants to punish everyone associated with him, but in fact just punishing him and his friends isn’t nearly good enough, because that has already happened. No the reactionary forces want the de facto death penalty, because somebody said something horribly insensitive. And while you are all doing your best conservative faux outrage impersonation, you are proving their point about political correctness. Finally, lest we not forget that this stupid joke was not for public consumption. I doubt any of us would like the stupid shit we say or e-mail to friends to come to light, particularly the crap we spewed when we were in our late teens or early twenties.
You know ABL, I get why you are on the receiving end of so much vitriol on this site. You have way too many posts that have this kind of tenor. And while you expect others to look past your own foibles, you show very little tolerance for others transgressions
quannlace
Well, all righty then, that makes it all hunky-dory. Just that it shines a light into the mindset of a lot guys out there.
Just read a report tonight on Daily Kos about rape and domestic violence. 1 in 5 women have been sexually assaulted. And those are the ones who have come forward about it. Time to stop thinking that joking about rape is ‘harmless’
No one of importance
@b-psycho:
Absolutely not. Rape isn’t an appropriate punishment for *anyone* and I’m revolted that you think it is.
No one of importance
@moderateindy:
Do you also get why people avoid you in the street and leave you off party invitations? Because with your level of obnoxious privilege and misogyny, I imagine the only company who could stomach you would be Hermain Cain and his chums, and they so would not think you were good enough for them.
burnspbesq
@No one of importance:
I’ll bet your humorless sanctimony and amateur psychoanalysis of people you’ve never met are big hits around the punch-bowl. Pot, meet kettle.
Citizen_X
Speak for yourself, asshole.
The prophet Nostradumbass
Shorter moderateindy and bunrspesq: “Boys will be boys”. Nice.
Richard
Oh God. There it is again. The excuse for all despicable behavior – “It was just a joke! Can’t you take a joke?”.
Fuck that shit.
stickler
Rape? A joke? Good God in Heaven. The campus where I teach just did a comprehensive, nationally-recognized survey of our undergraduates. The number of “rapes” they reported was shocking: 1 in 20 women. Then the questionnaire asked about situations that met the legal definition of “rape” but didn’t use that word. That number brought the total to 1 in 10.
One in ten. And that number’s almost certainly still way too low.
Think about that next time you’re looking at a group of people. You’re almost certainly looking at one, or more, sexual assault survivors.
It’s many things; “joke” isn’t one of them.
Exurban Mom
In my nice suburban neighborhood, a middle school boy said “yeah, maybe I’ll just rape you” to a middle school girl of my acquaintance.
Yeah, I’m sure he was just joking. He’s just a kid, after all…
That casual attitude towards sexual violence starts young and continues for too long in our society. It needs to be stamped out. And if you can’t see that, “moderateindy,” I really don’t know what to do with you.
smintheus
Taught at UVM in the early ’90s and then again in the late ’90s. I was shocked by how much nastier, sullen, and crudely obnoxious the student body had become in the meantime. Plenty of exceptions of course, and the UVM admin had always been repulsive. But I was shocked for ex. to have random students routinely shouting obscenities from their cars at me (obviously a faculty member) as I walked down the street. Just a weird, unpleasant vibe to the place.
No one of importance
@burnspbesq:
Go fuck yourself, you shitty little rape apologist.
Larv
@Ivan Ivanovich Renko:
Bushmills? That’s Protestant whiskey!
/McNulty
suzanne
@moderateindy:
What, pray tell, is the “de facto death penalty” that I supposedly want?
Because, IMHO, I want these fuckstains to lose their frat charter and all their female friends. You consider that “the de facto death penalty”? Thanks for clearing up the issue of which person in this discussion is the most prone to histrionics and idiocy and hyperbole. Before you commented, I was wondering.
In other sexist bullshit, I have decided that I will cease pleasant conversation with anyone who states anything to the effect of, “Women shouldn’t have kids until they make .” I have heard and read a truly disturbing number of statements to that effect recently, and I’ve decided that life is too short to spend time with fuckers like that.
suzanne
@burnspbesq: I’m not sure of your point. So we shouldn’t discuss sexism because it’s common and expected? Seems that’s why we should talk about it, no?
moderateindy
@suzanne:
Yes, exactly. You want Everyone associated with the person that wrote this stupid ass excuse for a joke to suffer. Tell me, how did you feel about the asswipes that wanted to punish Obama for associating with Bill Ayers. Because you are absolutely no different than they were. Strange how it seems no one has said let’s punish the person or people responsible for the survey. No, let’s punish everyone in the entire organization, in fact let’s get rid of the entire organization, and any other organization that might say or do something we don’t like. Nice……not at all like the rabid right wing.
moderateindy
@Citizen_X:
Yes I’m sure you’re pure as the driven snow and have never uttered an unkind word or inappropriate comment in your life. You are either delusional, a liar, or a living saint.
Jebediah
@suzanne:
Is there a word or something missing here?
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Jebediah: I suspect there was supposed to be something like “X number of dollars a year” in there.
@moderateindy: Not even close to being comparable. Were, or are, you a member of that frat or something?
moderateindy
@No one of importance:
I’m sorry, but explain how agreeing that something was disgusting and inappropriate, but saying that the punishment for the transgression should be in line with what actually occurred is in any way misogynistic or shows some level of privilege? I did not in any way endorse or excuse the behavior. I pointed out that it was stupid and wrong. But the people that were responsible were punished by being suspended. In fact they punished the entire frat. Seems like a fairly strong response that emphasizes that rape is never funny, and the University does not tolerate such crap. But apparently a reasonable response isn’t good enough. Everyone involved and anyone affiliated with them must be eliminated from campus, and anyone that thinks any differently must hate women! Yikes. I guess it’s not just fake outrage, but a bit of crazy is sprinkled in too. I could see people being pissed if this happened and there were no consequences for it. The point is there were. It isn’t being tolerated, it isn’t being justified, and there is no reason to act like this is some great injustice that we should all be outraged about. Or perhaps the concept of the punishment fitting the crime is anathema to you.
Jebediah
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
That seems most likely.
I couldn’t even begin to count the number of times in my life I have heard poor or working-class people sneered at for “having kids they can’t afford.” I’m with her on not having pleasant conversations with such folk – I really can’t think of a pleasant response. Responses, yes; pleasant ones, no.
moderateindy
@The prophet Nostradumbass:
OK you want comparable? Wasn’t the President a member of an organization who’s leader occasionally said things that were controversial or inappropriate? Because Rev Wright occasionally said stupid things, should all the members of his church be punished and the church closed down? Because that is what people are calling for, the elimination of the entire chapter, because some jackass thought rape was funny.
And no, I wasn’t in a frat, I don’t hate women, and I don’t think that there was nothing wrong with the supposed joke. I only ask that the punishment is in line with the transgression, which any reasonable, objective analysis would come to the conclusion that it was.
I also think that the people that are calling for over the top sanctions, including getting rid of the entire frat, are little more than the other side of the same coin as the right-wing nutbags they are always complaining about.
moderateindy
@suzanne:
I’m sorry let me clarify the “death penalty” part. I did not mean that people wanted to kill the people involved. That would be hyperbolic. I’m pretty sure that if a frat loses it’s charter and is kicked off campus, it is called getting the death penalty. And yes, if you think that this would be appropriate response for what they did, and apparently you do, along with everyone in the frat losing all their female friends, then I would say ludicrous is not nearly a strong enough word for your position .
No one of importance
@moderateindy:
You’re right. We should wait until all the members of this frat rape someone – again – before the fraternity is called to account and closed down.
Just *joking* about rape – and I’m so sure this is the *very* first time this frat house has done anything remotely distasteful – should be treated with a wagged finger and a stern ‘Now don’t do it again where people can see you’.
If you can’t see that this *is* a serious offense worth closing the frat down – or at least putting them on warning of doing so – then fuckwitted is not nearly a strong enough word for your intellect.
gorp
I doubt there are very many people(female or male) who don’t have some kind of unwanted/coercive/violent/incestuous/wish I had not participated in that in an active or passive way in any form at all/tomorrow is a new day/I just want to move on and start again/or just a simple feeling of “whatever”, smoke a cigarette,drink some more type of sexual experience in their life. That is why the issue is problematic. Rape by force or a frat guy(s)getting a girl so drunk she is unable to move is blatant and easy to point at as a crime and extremely fucked up. A football coach treating a ten year old kid like a son and then then sexually assaulting him is a crime and extremely fucked up. That sort of shit never goes away. It is very easy to define as rape. But if I, male, just don’t want to do it? I’m tired or upset or drunk or just not that interested. What if the other person feels like that? Is that rape? There is no force involved but certainly some type of coercion. Is that rape? As a child, I participated in sexual acts that I didn’t want to do, but I wasn’t forced. Because I was a child that would be rape according to our laws, but I didn’t lose any sleep over it. It didn’t undermine me or scar me for life. As an adult I have had sex with several different girlfriends when I didn’t want to. I did it just to keep things quiet. Is that coercion? Is that rape? I sure as shit didn’t want to do it, but I did. (anyone who would say that because I had erection means that I wanted it doesn’t understand male physiology; men are designed by god(or whomever) to have erections as much as possible) I’m sure there many women who have sex when they are not really into it, perhaps with some one they love deeply. The point is that beyond the obvious cases where everyone will agree, there are other times where it can be difficult to define with the accuracy needed to send someone to prison for years of otherwise fuck up someone’s life. If two young adults wake up naked on a strange bed after a party and neither can remember how they got there but are pretty sure sex was involved, was it rape? The damage to their life, reputation or self esteem can be catastrophic, so they better be able to figure it out or they will be spending a whole lot of time they will never see again dealing with it.
Djur
Weirdly appropriate: that picture is from an episode where Riker is being accused of (in addition to murder) attempted rape.
Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
@moderateindy:
Dude, Jeremiah Wright said some things that some people thought were “controversial or inappropriate”. Some people–not all–thought they were “stupid things” to say. This frat handed out a Who Would You Like to Rape sheet to its members. This isn’t the same thing at all. Tarring the whole frat with one brush here is reasonable, since nobody there stood up and said, “Wait, what the fuck is this shit? Are you nuts? Fuck off with this!”
And the consequences of glibly bantering about which tasty women students to rape are a shitload worse than those of saying “God damn AMerica!” The consequences of the first are that maybe some of these cockbags might learn to look at rape as a joke, as, “Hey, boys will be boys,” and rape somebody. Those of the other is that some congregants might think less highly of their country, bearing in mind the awful history we have about race.
If you can’t see that these are not the same, and that tarring all the frat guys isn’t like tarring Obama because Wright said something that made Sean Hannity cry, then you need a soul transplant right away.
Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
@moderateindy:
And I’m glad ABL brings these things to light. The more we as a society know about these things, the easier it’ll be to stamp them out. When people can get away with this shit, whether it’s racism or sexism or anything else, without having to suffer socially, they’ll keep doing it.
I bet Herman Cain is pissed that he can’t just keep on groping women without having his good name smirched. I bet the assholes who send out e-mails with racist pictures of Obama are sad that they can’t do this anymore without society thinking they’re assholes. I bet these fraternity assholes are pissed off that they can’t joke about raping other students without everybody shunning them from here on.
So, yeah, all these “victims” of our outrage are sad and angry and somewhat befuddled, and they’ve lost friends, and poor Herman Cain won’t be president now, and these fraternity dicks will have this little stunt stapled to their “good names” for the rest of their lives. Well, too damned bad. Society has overlooked shit like this for far too long.
I don’t care that Herman Cain feels like he got a raw deal. I don’t care that some prick in a frat will have far fewer friends after this. People who can joke about raping students should lose their friends. Decent people who know them should shudder and walk away.
That’s harsh. And maybe these assholes will learn something from this. That’ll be up to them. Maybe they’ll come to understand why what they did was wrong, and maybe they’ll turn themselves around, but they’ll have to earn their friends back. That’s as it should be. And maybe after this, some kid in some frat down the line will get a sheet like this handed to him,and he’ll stand up and say, “This is wrong,” and walk out. That’s as it should be, too. Maybe it’ll happen more and more, until the people who really do believe that it’s all right to rape people because you feel like it are shoved way out onto the fringes of society, friendless. That, too, is as it should be.
And until that day, I guess ABL, and people like her, will be shining a light on these creatures so we can all see them and recoil. I’m glad she does.
moderateindy
@No one of importance:
Really, no one? perhaps you should be banned from this site for accusing these kids of raping women. Oh, but you claim that you were just joking. Wait, according to you joking about rape is so unacceptable that this frat should be shut down. But it’s OK for you to make a distasteful joke about these guys being rapists, and you should suffer no consequences.
The difference between the two of us is that I think that the consequences should be proportional to the act. In the frats case, based upon the known evidence, and not the speculation of ranting fools that magically know exactly what this group acts like, I think the punishment, Suspension, is appropriate. If other facts come to light, then I may change my opinion.
In your case I think the proper response is to call you a reactionary nitwit completely lacking in objectivity. Lucky for you I don’t apply the same rules to you, that you think should apply to these guys. Otherwise you would have to listen to me rant about how you should be kicked off this board forever.
Please explain to me how this single act of stupidity by someone in the frat is so egregious that it warrants the elimination of the entire organization?
You want an example of something beyond the pale that deserves repercussions? How about calling someone a shitty little rape apologist, because they called you out for being an over the top sanctimonious d-bag. Gee I wonder who did that? Oh yes that was you as well.
I swear, you truly are like the right-wing nutbags. All I have to do is let you keep spewing your crap, and you make my argument for me that you are hyperbolic, hateful, and ludicrous and have no reasonable arguments only vitriol, and beliefs that you are certain are true, whether the facts support those ideas or not.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
Why, exactly, are we so certain that the survey question was nothing more than a joke?
I mean, if I join a club and they give me a survey, and one of the questions is “Would you prefer chicken, steak, or vegetarian,” I’m going to assume that they’ll be serving dinner at some point.
With that in mind, when a fraternity passes out surveys which ask its new members who they want to rape, my first assumption is that the frat will be working to get that woman alone and roofied up. The assumption that this was nothing more than a joke seems to be based on nothing more than wishful thinking.
I know, I know. Of course it was a joke, because obviously these are good kids who’d never drug up a girl and leave her at the mercy of some douchebag pledge. Lots of non-rapists joke about which girls they want to rape. It’s not a sign of vicious misogyny at all!
And if the survey question was instead “Which negro would you like to see swinging from a tree branch,” that wouldn’t be a sign of violent racist tendencies either. Just boyz being boyz! Stop being so damn sensitive.
Yup yup.
Paul in KY
@moderateindy: Oh fuck off, weeping willie. I haven’t seen too many stories about shit like this. These dipshits need to have the light of publicity thrown on them. Are you a Sig-Ep by chance?
Paul in KY
@No one of importance: Oh, I could think of a few where it would fall in the ‘appropriate punishment’ bailiwick.
Paul in KY
@Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.): Thank you for slamming it. I was going to, but you have handled it well.
Dave
There was a Sigma Phi chapter at my school, which was nicknamed “Sick Pig.” Seems unfair to pigs, actually.
blondie
Wow. For those few of you who don’t know if it counts as rape when she’s passed out, here are some handy sexual assault prevention tips. http://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2009/09/sexual-assault-prevention-tips-guaranteed-to-work/