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Reader Interactions

216Comments

  1. 1.

    SteveM

    But … but … but the night Hitchens chose me to get shitfaced with was the greatest night of my life!

  3. 3.

    Dave

    I find this to be the real point of the piece, for me:

    I don’t know how long Christopher will be read. Posterity isn’t kind to columnists and essayists and book reviewers, even the best ones.

    I think Hitchens will be remembered. He was larger than life and pissed off a lot of people. But writing wise? He dressed up a lot of idiotic ramblings in flowery prose. But he didn’t say anything interesting for a long long time.

  4. 4.

    Zifnab

    I understand that Hitchens was an outspoken atheist, and that as a minority figure who managed to capture a large audience on a world stage he helped inspire a lot of other atheists to finally come out of the closet. And I suppose I should be thankful for that.

    But the guy was such an asshole. And not in a good, funny Louis CK way. He was nasty and bitter. I know a lot of people that loved Hitchens, but I never really understood the appeal. For all his eloquence, for all his intelligence, why couldn’t Hitchens have been less of a dick?

  5. 5.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    I was surprised KP didn’t mention the “women aren’t funny” essay, which was such a weak and shallow piece of writing I can’t believe people still feel the need to write against it.

  6. 6.

    slag

    You rang?

    He could write with equal ease about Philip Larkin, capital punishment, Henry Kissinger and having his balls waxed.

    And once again, the Oxford comma goes undervalued. Or am I misreading something?

  7. 7.

    eemom

    I linkied that on the bottom of your last thread, and so I will repeat my witty observation that Pollit’s piece is the most gracious, elegant euphemism for “RIP, you drunken sexist asshole” that I’ve ever had the pleasure of reading.

  10. 10.

    JGabriel

    Generalíssimo Christopher Hitchens is still dead.

    (I read the Pollitt piece earlier this afternoon. I thought it was a good corrective to the general level of Hitchens hagiography.)

    .

  11. 11.

    Schlemizel

    Its easy to produce prodigious amounts of writing when you are not incumbered with facts or research. All you have to do is KNOW what is true and then belittle, berate and dismiss people who do not believe as you do while ignoring their arguments.

    Hell, I could do 1400 words a day easy but I would have to be really drunk or my conscience would eat me alive. I’d probably take up smoking in hopes it would kill me faster & put me out of my misery.

  14. 14.

    DougJ

    @eemom:

    I am glad you agree with me on this one. I had this nightmare that you and ThymeZone and burnie all came after me in my last Hitchens last thread.

  17. 17.

    Svensker

    Bleh. Never liked the guy. Mean spirited asshole. Warmonger And his book against God is full of ignorance and illogic.

    I’m sure his friends and family loved him and will miss him. For all friends and families of the people whose deaths he didn’t have a problem with causing or even cheered on, maybe they won’t be so sad.

    I’m sorry he didn’t live long enough to repent.

  18. 18.

    Shinobi

    Every time I think of Christopher Hitchens I end up reading this hilarious piece to make myself feel better about being a vagina American.

    I hope that the people who are grieving for him can find peace with his passing.

  20. 20.

    chopper

    Fucking fat slags

    this bit always makes me chuckle when someone says that hitch was ‘the greatest intellectual of the time’ or some horseshit. if that’s the biggest intellectual we got than god help us all.

  22. 22.

    schrodinger's cat

    Why are pompous Brit punditubbies so popular? Hitchens, Sullivan and Niall Ferguson come to mind. Is it the accent?

  23. 23.

    sb

    Fine. I can’t tolerate Hemingway’s alcoholism, Tolstoy’s rampant cheating while preaching sexual purity, the annoying prissiness of Thoreau (who would say and do things that would get him thrown out of any decent house in the world), Marlowe’s violent behavior, Twain’s paranoia (“give the Lyon/Ashcroft’s a fan”), and don’t even get me started on the poets.

    What he said about the Chicks was and remains shitty. Point taken. But Hitchens could be engaging as well as enraging (phrase stolen from the LA Times) and I choose to remember both and mourn the former while not missing a whit the latter aspect of his character. You choose to concentrate on his worst choices and let that represent him? More power to you. And hopefully, not a word of what I wrote is insulting because as I said yesterday, you’re a big reason why I read this blog, FWIW.

    All the best…

  29. 29.

    Hunter Gathers

    He was a misogynistic, alcohol-fueled narcissist who never met a Muslim he didn’t want killed. I don’t give a good Goddamn how intelligent or how gifted a writer he was. He was a human stain. Good riddance.

    I fell that same way about Hitchens that I do about Ron Paul. I don’t give a flying fuck about his positions on foreign policy, civil liberties, or the drug war. Ron Paul is an amoral bigot. I want nothing to do with him, his supporters, or the liberals who make excuses for him because they agree with him on some issues. I do not make common cause with bigots or those that enable them. Reading all of the liberal blogs that have nice things to say about Paul makes me want to puke.

  31. 31.

    handsmile

    I was sorely disappointed that no enterprising journalist sought out Herr Doktor K. for his thoughts on the passing of Mr. Hitchens.

    But perhaps his learned remarks would not have been sufficiently hagiographic for the occasion.

  32. 32.

    Warren Terra

    It’s a good essay, and more honest than most I’ve seen about Hitchens. Still, I really wonder what that last paragraph is doing there. It reads like it was written completely separately – either she wrote an essay about the true Hitchens, then wimped out and added the last paragraph, or she started with what’s now the last paragraph to write a bland appreciation and then found the courage to write an essay about the true Hitchens.

  33. 33.

    BGinCHI

    @sb: Marlowe’s violent behavior?

    Citation?

    Context? You think he was unusual?

    Please give some details. If your thesis is that “writers ought to be nice people,” best of luck.

  35. 35.

    slag

    @JGabriel: Now, now…let’s not degrade the word:

    2. Rubbish that is not worth the time or effort of paying attention to it, but none the less draws one in. Used to describe unpleasent situations.
    __
    3. Physical trash, often scrap metals.
    __
    4. Drawn from frag, to slag something is to destroy it, used in cases of technological rather then biological items.

  38. 38.

    burnspbesq

    @DougJ:

    I had this nightmare that you and ThymeZone and burnie all came after me in my last Hitchens last thread.

    Not me. Hitchens isn’t worth it. Great writer with nothing much to say.

    If I were going to have a beef with Hitchens, it would be for never disavowing and eviscerating Sam Harris. I’m fine with his atheism, I’m not fine with him not separating himself from an atheist who would commit genocide against people of faith without a second’s hesitation.

  40. 40.

    Splitting Image

    I’ve never read much of Hitchens’ work, and in fact I don’t think I was even aware of his existence until I discovered the blogosphere a few years ago.

    He’s obviously made a big impression on a lot of people, but to be honest, with some of the other obituaries this past week, I just don’t feel the need to spend too much time either praising Hitchens or burying him.

    Vaclav Havel is more worthy of the time, in my opinion. And my geek brain is far more sad to hear of Joe Simon’s passing.

  41. 41.

    Belafon (formerly anonevent)

    Does anyone else get the impression that Doug should not be allowed near Hitchens’ corpse with shoes or anything harder than a wet noodle?

  48. 48.

    slag

    @burnspbesq:

    I’m fine with his atheism, I’m not fine with him not separating himself from an atheist who would commit genocide against people of faith without a second’s hesitation.

    Wow. Really? I’m starting to like this Sam Harris guy. Traditionally, I’ve considered him a rather milquetoast wannabe provocateur. But here I can see the appeal.

  49. 49.

    eemom

    @DougJ:

    I just thought it was unfair to attack Cole for wanting to keep the RIP thread free of the usual corpse-pissing that goes on here when the dead person is hardly cold.

    As you well know, I am hardly a model of decorum, and even I thought the shit being slung at Steve Jobs on the night of his death was appalling.

  50. 50.

    sb

    @BGinCHI: Here.

    If your thesis is that “writers ought to be nice people,” best of luck.

    Not even close. I was responding to DougJ’s apparent assertion that mourning the death of Hitchens wasn’t worthwhile what his making a horrible comment about the Dixie Chicks. And if you want to take this conversation further, I’d love to find out how on earth someone could read my post and think my ‘thesis’ was that writers ought to be nice people. I was trying to communicate the exact opposite so if you missed that badly then clearly I fucked up. Otherwise, happy holidays.

    UDPATE: You know what? I could have been more clear. Now… happy holidays. :)

  51. 51.

    handsmile

    @Belafon (formerly anonevent): (#41)

    Well, I must say that a certain Elvis Costello song (for a far worthier yet still breathing subject) comes to mind.

    @eemom: (#42)

    For the love of God (always an appropriate invocation when discussing Hitchens), it’s spelled TERESA. (Nabokov was a stickler for such details!)

  52. 52.

    NobodySpecial

    The dude’s dead, and he never liked any of you while he was alive. Why the fuck you want to spare his feelings, I’ll never get.

  53. 53.

    Anya

    Hitchens was pretentious saxist and racist asshole. He said and did many things that are unforgivable. But on a minor note, It was amazing to me that he was so offended by Wanda Sykes’, in my opinion, unfunny joke about Rush Limbaugh that he wrote a whole column about her, in which he referred to her as “Sable Sapphist.”

  55. 55.

    BGinCHI

    @sb: OK, I see that I really just responded to your first para and skimmed the second too quickly. Apologies. You were trying to keep foibles and texts separate, and that makes good sense.

    As for Marlowe, it’s just a bit of apples and oranges, since his life is not known all that clearly. That EB article is a little crusty. If you’re interested, have a look at The Reckoning, by Charles Nicholl. Great read and a lot of useful info on his life and times.

    And for the record, Ben Jonson murdered a fellow actor in a duel and just got a burned thumb for it. It was a pretty violent and topsy-turvy time, and Marlowe had plenty of company….

  56. 56.

    SteveM

    @Warren Terra:

    Yeah, that was the one sour note in the Pollitt piece. I don’t think Zirin was being nice to Hitchens at all, or imagining himself as having had some sort of terrific male bonding moment, because Hitchypoo spit something at him.

  58. 58.

    slag

    @BGinCHI:

    It was a pretty violent and topsy-turvy time, and Marlowe had plenty of company….

    True. Hitchens, Novak, and company just couldn’t compete. As hard as they tried.

  59. 59.

    burnspbesq

    @DougJ:

    Actually, you did come by and ask me to quit blogging here in that thread in your usual sanctimonious tone.

    You asked for that. You practically begged for that, in fact. If it hadn’t been me, it would have been someone else.

  60. 60.

    BGinCHI

    @slag: Marlowe was stabbed through the eye with his own dagger in a tavern. No one knows the exact circumstances. He was murdered for reasons to do with espionage or it was over a bar bill.

    I think if Hitch and Novak had gone out this way I might have had more respect for them.

    There’s still time for Buchanan.

  62. 62.

    catclub

    @BGinCHI: I am pretty sure, the idea was that: Yes, many writers are shitty people, but some are good writers, and if you ignore the crap and concentrate on the good stuff, that works out better than the converse. (or the pro-keds, or the adidas)

  64. 64.

    slag

    You asked for that. You practically begged for that, in fact. If it hadn’t been me, it would have been someone else.

    Aphorism of the day: The low-hanging fruit is quite often fruitless.

  66. 66.

    slag

    @BGinCHI:

    There’s still time for Buchanan.

    You’re impugning Buchanan by asserting that he’s actually still alive. I’m pretty sure the zombies got to him several moons ago.

  68. 68.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @slag: I agree that this is a perfect example to demonstrate the value of the Oxford comma. Thanks.

  69. 69.

    Trentrunner

    Let’s remember that it’s not only the disgusting sexism of “fucking fat slags,” it’s that Hitchens said it of the Dixie Chicks (btw, “fat”? WTF?) after their lead singer had said something tepidly bad about GWBush in the early days of the Iraq war.

    In other words, Hitch was attacking–personally, sexistfully–opponents of a war he supported.

    That’s how bullies roll, my friends: erudite, sesquipedalian, or prolix, an asshole bully is still an asshole bully.

  70. 70.

    schrodinger's cat

    @Trentrunner: I don’t get it, what is with these men, who are hardly the models for physical fitness themselves calling women who are quite attractive (may be not model thin), fat. Rush Limbaugh calling Michelle Obama fat is another example of this phenomenon.

  74. 74.

    Mnemosyne

    I admit, I never got the Hitchens love, possibly because I only really heard of him when he started attacking the Clintons as the Worst People In The World and then went down the whole rabbit hole of supporting the Iraq War because we needed to teach those wogs a lesson. And, yes, his blatant sexism just put the cherry on top of my complete disinterest in anything he had to say.

    He did at least admit that waterboarding was torture after being waterboarded himself. Better than nothing, I guess.

  75. 75.

    DougJ

    @eemom:

    Corpse-kicking just doesn’t bother me. Better people kick your corpse than ignore your death. Bear in mind I am Irish.

  76. 76.

    TooManyJens

    @schrodinger’s cat: They do it because they can. After all, the kind of people who think calling a woman “fat” invalidates everything she has to say aren’t going to notice the hypocrisy, let alone call these guys on it. They’re not exactly deep thinkers.

  77. 77.

    schrodinger's cat

    @BGinCHI:I agree. Condescending and hectoring and a little bit prissy. I have been at the receiving end not all that long ago (the thread about James Joyner of OTB’s wife passing away.)

  79. 79.

    Amir Khalid

    @SteveM:
    True, the Christopher Hitchens Dave Zirin encountered in that bar was a dick. But see how Zirin sums up the encounter:

    I stood there stunned, embarrassed and oddly proud. To be spit upon by Christopher Hitchens, for an anti-war activist in 2005, was an honor worth its weight in gold. It also felt real. Most public figures of his ilk are so full of hot air and self-regard, they aren’t even human.

    There’s a fair bit of fan worship in those words, and Katha Pollitt was right to call it a fond reminiscence. Even if most of Zirin’s piece criticizes Hitchens’ part in promoting needless war and suffering in the Middle East.

  80. 80.

    Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal

    so, folks are upset that hitchens comes from a different time and place than they do, and has some vastly different views of the world than they do, or, at least think, are the right views to have.

    i think its the points of agreement, not the points of departure that piss people off about him. that and he was willing and able to be an asshole in public, and in his writing, in such a way that folks want to believe the cosmos, karma, or plain ole republican jesus is supposed to punish a person for, more than they feel hitchens was punished or persecuted.

    lets not forget, other than in personal relationships, all he did was write shit. the rest is on the reader, or the people who were probably going to do what they did, and get what they got, wiith or without him.

  81. 81.

    No one of importance

    @JGabriel:
    “British slang for “slut”.”

    Not quite. Slut is a word men use for women of easy affection they would personally like to bang.

    Slag is used for women who like sex but who are unattractive. To men, the only difference between slags and hookers is that slags do it for free.

    Viz magazine encapsulated the term ‘fat slags’ in this cartoon:

    http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/11/4/1257355909116/Viz-Comic-Fat-Slags-001.jpg

    Basically it’s a repulsive slur, and I was not prepared to see it in large blue letters at the top of this blog when I loaded it this morning.

    Really, DougJ? Would you have been so happy to reproduce Hitchen’s deathless and unoriginal insult if he’d called a group “Fucking fat f*gg*ts”?

    Misogyny is obviously less offensive here than homophobia. I’d have thought basic decency would have made you reconsider whether you really need to shove your women readers’ face in it like this.

  82. 82.

    Jim, Foolish Literalist

    @Mnemosyne: Sullivan cited this passages as, I think, examples of Hitchens’ great writing

    For Sen. Clinton, something is true if it validates the myth of her striving and her “greatness” (her overweening ambition in other words) and only ceases to be true when it no longer serves that limitless purpose.

    On Hillary:
    There’s something horrible and undefeatable about people who have no life except the worship of power, people who don’t want the meeting to end, the people who just are unstoppable, who only have one focus, no humanity, no character, nothing but the worship of money and power. They win in the end.

    I can think of few top-tier political figures less like those sentences than HRC.

  83. 83.

    a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)

    @Trentrunner:

    an asshole bully is still an asshole bully, even if he writes well

    An excellent epitaph for Hitchens. Thanks for starting it.

  85. 85.

    Warren Terra

    @Amir Khalid:
    I read that as Dave Zirin’s pride in being an anti-war protestor worthy of notice, that he could inspire an emotional response from a noted pro-war polemicist. I didn’t read it was Zirin thinking Hitchens was so great that to be spit on by him was an honor. Indeed, it’s clear that Zirin walked into that bar thinking Hitchens was a great man, and walked out thinking quite less of him, even though he praises Hitchens for caring enough about what other people thought to get angry at him.

  87. 87.

    DougJ

    @No one of importance:

    I didn’t know what it meant. But we quote Lee Atwater using the n-word all the time, and I don’t see how quoting Hitchens with this s-word is any different. He said it, not me.

  88. 88.

    kc

    Shit, I had forgotten about the “fat slags” comment. Now I want to dig Hitchens up and kick him in the nuts.

  89. 89.

    Mike Furlan

    I’m surprised someone else didn’t mention it yet.

    Hitchens was a Bullshitter. From Frankfurts’ definition:

    “The liar, Frankfurt holds, knows and cares about the truth, but deliberately sets out to mislead instead of telling the truth. The “bullshitter”, on the other hand, does not care about the truth and is only seeking to impress”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit#Bullshit_in_philosophy

    Hitchens, Sullivan, Ferguson. Seeking only to impress.

  92. 92.

    (another) Josh

    Time to break out the Ta-Nehisi video on the “use/mention distinction” (which almost sounds like a song, but is in fact a few minutes of an interview with Chris Hayes).

  93. 93.

    eemom

    @DougJ:

    There is also the minor fact that you posted it for the purpose of emphasizing and REJECTING Hitchens’ misogyny, not of endorsing what he said — which seems to have whooshed right over the head of this woman who apparently visits this blog for the express purpose of finding things to take personal offense to.

  94. 94.

    Mnemosyne

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I still don’t understand what button HRC pushes for certain people that sends them off into a frenzy of hatred for her. She’s always struck me as a Democratic technocrat, someone who got where she is by keeping her nose to the grindstone and slogging away, and yet some people see her as some kind of Lady Macbeth. It’s so bizarre.

  97. 97.

    schrodinger's cat

    @Mnemosyne: I think Sullivan was quite deranged about Sarah Palin also. He seems to have a problem with women who are not Margaret Thatcher.

  98. 98.

    No one of importance

    @DougJ:

    It’s the fact that you put it up as your heading. Whereas you could have headed it “Hitchen’s misogyny” or something. It was like being slapped seeing there, without even a “Hitchens said” or something for context.

    And I’m not impressed with the way commentors gleefully quote Atwater either (or use ‘n*gger’ ‘ironically). Reproducing slurs and saying “well, it wasn’t me”, is a little too close to having your cake and eating it too.

    But hey, eemom liked it, so I guess that’s all that counts.

  99. 99.

    Gravenstone

    @schrodinger’s cat: The insults that come most readily to the lips are those we would hurl first at ourselves. In other words, projection comes easily for most people. More so than they likely would be comfortable contemplating.

  100. 100.

    No one of importance

    @Joel:

    What? Being shocked to see grossly misogynistic headlines on a blog that pays lip service to….

    Hell, what am I saying?

    This blog is full of sexist arseholes. And plenty of them will jump up to explain why I shouldn’t worry my pretty head over this.

  101. 101.

    Cermet

    Oh damn – here was a guy who had as much use for religion as any sane person and yet it turns out he was a sexist war-monger … at least 90% of all highly religious people are similar in his sexism and as bad on war-mongering.

    Still, shit.

    I was taken in by his noble act of facing death. Damn. Still, christian religion has been the greatest source of anti-woman bullshit for nearly two thousand years (excluding Christ it would appear)of any philosophy and a prime source of war and I am still glad he spit into the eye of that demon while still being a similar asshole. So his death is no loss relative to the mass murder cheney/bush caused and he supported.
    I guess our F’d up country will never produce an honest person who believes in truth and accepts reality.

  106. 106.

    Mnemosyne

    @Cermet:

    I was taken in by his noble act of facing death. Damn. Still, christian religion has been the greatest source of anti-woman bullshit for nearly two thousand years (excluding Christ it would appear)of any philosophy and a prime source of war and I am still glad he spit into the eye of that demon while still being a similar asshole.

    So he supported the same things that Christianity supported for thousands of years (ie war and misogyny) but it’s okay as long as he didn’t claim he supported war and misogyny because of Jesus?

    I has a confused.

  108. 108.

    sb

    @BGinCHI: Yeah, I’ve done a little more research (also known as “teacher on break, nothing to do, Google’s Marlowe to see what’s what”) and the consensus seems to be that Marlowe’s reputation as a violent guy is overrated so my linky is at best incomplete. He was no more or less violent than most (some duels and bar fights here and there) and, yes, Jonson has him outscored 1-0 in murdering actors.

    Good talk. Many thanks.

  110. 110.

    gogol's wife

    @kc:

    He wrote about it very courageously. His essays on his own dying are very much worth reading. I hate a lot of what he stood for. Still I’m sad about his death.

  111. 111.

    Roger Moore

    @Mnemosyne:

    I still don’t understand what button HRC pushes for certain people that sends them off into a frenzy of hatred for her.

    She’s a powerful, effective woman who disagrees with them. You can tell that it’s her being a woman that really sets them off because they use misogynistic slurs in their criticism. It’s the same way that Obama drives racists bonkers. Seeing despised minorities in positions of power- especially when they’re giving lie to the slurs against them by doing a good job- pushes them over the edge to the point they can’t keep their hatred under the surface any more.

  114. 114.

    Amir Khalid

    @Warren Terra:
    I don’t really disagree with you on this. I’m not suggesting that Zirin thought it an honor to be spat on by Christopher Hitchens. Zirin admits to feeling honored that Hitchens, a celebrity among writers, had noticed his first story in The Nation — even if only to speak petulantly of it.

    But I don’t think Zirin had stars in his eyes in that encounter. He did call out Hitchens’ warmongering bullshit, to the man’s face. Or that Zirin was totally surprised by Hitchens’ rudeness; he was, after all, working with Hitchen’s former colleagues. Perhaps it was the level of Hitchens’ hostility that surprised Zirin.

  115. 115.

    harlana

    @Cermet:

    I was taken in by his noble act of facing death.

    Hitchens does appear to have faced death nobly. Perhaps that is the best thing he ever did. I try to look at it as redemptive in nature. Perhaps I am wrong about that, I don’t know.

    I’m not going to lambast the man for how he lived his life, he was talented but too clever by half. (And, apparently, a mysoginist). But I stopped reading him after he linked hearts with the likes of Bill Kristol.

  116. 116.

    pseudonymous in nc

    The “fucking fat slags” comment was made to a British audience, at the writerpalooza that is Hay-on-Wye. I saw him reiterate it at another event later that day, having earlier seen him head off to the “fat slags” event from the Blue Boar.

    I also saw Edward Said at Hay that year, in his last public appearance, speaking about the West-Eastern Divan, the orchestra he formed with Daniel Barenboim to bring together young Israeli and Palestinian musicians.

  117. 117.

    Warren Terra

    @Roger Moore:

    @Mnemosyne:

    I still don’t understand what button HRC pushes for certain people that sends them off into a frenzy of hatred for her.

    She’s a powerful, effective woman who disagrees with them. You can tell that it’s her being a woman that really sets them off because they use misogynistic slurs in their criticism. It’s the same way that Obama drives racists bonkers. Seeing despised minorities in positions of power- especially when they’re giving lie to the slurs against them by doing a good job- pushes them over the edge to the point they can’t keep their hatred under the surface any more.

    I think this argument works a little better for Pelosi or Obama than for Hillary Clinton. Don’t forget, Clinton became a national public figure by virtue of her marriage. That’s not to denigrate her personal achievements before or since her time as First Lady nor to ignore her hard work in advancing the political career of Bill Clinton, but a lot of people already predisposed to dislike all liberals and all women had the added bonus that she was sort of installed into the public sphere without anyone voting for her.

  118. 118.

    harlana

    i’m trying to be very gracious here – i wanted to personally throttle Hitchens and all his ilk at the time

  119. 119.

    Amir Khalid

    @DougJ:
    At first, I thought the post headline was you insulting some women. I wondered who they might be; what they’d done; and why you, who should know better, would direct personal insults toward them.

    Then I found out that you were criticizing Christopher Hitchens for calling the Dixie Chicks that. But before I found that out, I spent a few moments being disappointed in you.

  121. 121.

    No one of importance

    @Amir Khalid:

    “I spent a few moments being disappointed in you.”

    See, your testicles give you the right to say that.

    Apparently a woman being offended or shocked – or disappointed – is fucking idiotic.

    I don’t believe DougJ intended to offend women, and wanted only to graphically point out what a sexist dirtbag Hitchens was. But there are ways to do that which, you know, don’t contribute to the very problem you’re decrying.

    But apparently even asking people to reconsider their actions is fucking idiotic.

  123. 123.

    Joel

    @No one of importance: You would be right, if context were unimportant. The headline reads:

    Fucking fat slags

    The body reads:

    I just can’t tolerate that level of sexism.

    I don’t see what there is to get, here.

    But perhaps it’s just my testosterone that has my brain all fucked up.

  124. 124.

    eemom

    @No one of importance:

    But there are ways to do that which, you know, don’t contribute to the very problem you’re decrying.

    You seem to be the only one who saw it that way. Which is consistent with the fact I alluded to above, i.e., your repeated history of coming here LOOKING for something at which to take offense.

    And as for “other ways” — you’re not the fucking editor, and even if you were, you’d be a shitty one. Exposing ugliness for what it is in all its rawness happens to be a very effective WAY of getting a point across.

  125. 125.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Steeplejack: My understanding has always been that in UK English slag = the US term slut, and the UK slut = female slob (i.e., laddered hose, smudged make-up, and messy flat, with no sexual implications either way).

  126. 126.

    Mnemosyne

    @Amir Khalid:

    Out of curiosity, is “slag” one of those Britishisms that seems funny to us Americans but is actually offensive? IIRC, Mike Meyers ran into that when he called his movie “Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me” and it turned out that the word was a lot closer to “fuck” in a lot of English-speaking countries than it was in Canada and the US.

  128. 128.

    No one of importance

    @Joel:

    Actually the text link makes the headline worse, given Doug’s penchant, shall we call it, for trolling. At first glance, it looks like he was being sarcastic.

    It doesn’t matter that the link eventually clarifies where the quote came from (a long way down the page). The *first* impact came from the unannotated insult – which is one that’s been thrown at me many a time by the testosterone-enhanced for the sin of not being Cindy Crawford.

    Look, if you can’t see that there was a better way Doug could have done this, and that I’m simply pointing out that had this been an insult with the word I mentioned in my first comment, or the ‘n’ word, DougJ might have been more restrained, then yes, male privilege is blinding you. The fact he didn’t realise how awful it looked, is indeed down to the XY thing.

    You really don’t need to guide me gently to an understanding of what he was doing, you know. I’m not, despite claims, a fucking idiot.

  129. 129.

    No one of importance

    @Mnemosyne:

    “is “slag” one of those Britishisms that seems funny to us Americans but is actually offensive? ”

    Yes. Slut can be used affectionately between intimate partners. Slag is an insult. Women might use it jokingly but a man who calls a woman that will likely end up carrying his balls away in his hands.

  131. 131.

    Svensker

    @eemom:

    What do you think about the Mother Theresa thing?

    I don’t know what to think. Not enough information. I don’t like some of the things he said she said, but on the other hand, I wasn’t out there washing the bodies of dying poor folks. Neither was Hitchens. But, as I said, not enough info.

  132. 132.

    Mnemosyne

    @No one of importance:

    I think we’re having a major language barrier here, because I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve even heard the word “slag” here in the US, and it’s always been in a British movie or TV show.

  133. 133.

    CT Voter

    @schrodinger’s cat: He was deranged, and, also, on point in illuminating the shitty job political journalists do when they are too close to the politicians and such. Can you imagine the scrutiny, though, that Democratic VP candidate Sarah Palin would have been under?

    Sully is still in love with Margaret Thatcher.

    And now that he’s developing a full-on crush on Ron Paul, I find him unbearable.

  134. 134.

    Mnemosyne

    @No one of importance:

    The fact he didn’t realise how awful it looked, is indeed down to the XY thing.

    I think it’s down to a “two countries divided by a common language” thing, not an XY thing. I had no idea it was that offensive, and I’ve been a (American) woman my whole life.

  135. 135.

    No one of importance

    @DougJ:

    Well that’s all right then. When is cole going to start blocking by IP address again?

    If you had no idea ‘slag’ was an insult, why did you know it was sexist?

  137. 137.

    No one of importance

    @Mnemosyne:

    And the article that Doug linked didn’t give you a clue? The fact that the author pointed out that Hitchens had used a *worse* insult than slut, which is bad enough?

    I’d be prepared to accept this explanation except Doug is doubling down and in essence claiming no one else was offended so shut up bitch.

    A simple “I’m sorry” can go a long way. But that doesn’t seem to be the BJ method.

    By the way – it’s not just Brits who use it as a vile insult. Aussies too. I can’t believe I’m the *only* non-American woman reading this blog.

  139. 139.

    gwangung

    @No one of importance:

    Yes. Slut can be used affectionately between intimate partners.

    Hm. I’m not so sure that this is the case in America; slut is far more of an insult (above and beyond the point for people who DO understand it, the use of the insult has a particular purpose, sexism and all–and would not make the point without the use of the sexist insult).

  140. 140.

    CT Voter

    @No one of importance: I didn’t take issue with it. It could have read “Fucking fat cunts”, if that’s what Hitchens had said.

    I read BJ every day (comment only occasionally), and really don’t see the need for DougJ to put the phrase in quotes or reference Hitchens, because it’s pretty damn obvious that DougJ wasn’t the source of the phrase.

  141. 141.

    DougJ

    @No one of importance:

    It was the “fucking fat”, you idiot, that calling a woman fat means that you don’t listen to anything she says. Even after you told me what slag meant, I still think “fucking fat” is the offensive part.

  142. 142.

    Mnemosyne

    @No one of importance:

    And the article that Doug linked didn’t give you a clue? The fact that the author pointed out that Hitchens had used a worse insult than slut, which is bad enough?

    Nope, because here in the US, “slut” isn’t a big deal, either. It’s like saying that something is a worse insult than “jerk.” If you’re going to insult an American woman, “whore” is definitely much worse, and “cunt” will get you a sock in the eye.

    It probably would have helped if you had gone the “uh, do you realize just how bad that word is in England?” rather than going into full out “why does DougJ hate women?” screech mode. Full-out attacking people who are genuinely ignorant doesn’t do much to make them take you seriously.

    ETA: Using the word “fucking” in a headline was much more of a stopper than “slag,” because “fuck” and all its derivatives is still a huge, HUGE no-no in the US.

    ETA 2: Though, as gwangung said, no one here uses “slut” affectionately. That’s kinda creepy, frankly.

  143. 143.

    gwangung

    And the article that Doug linked didn’t give you a clue? The fact that the author pointed out that Hitchens had used a worse insult than slut, which is bad enough?

    You’re using “worse” in a binary sense to people who can’t gauge the depth of the insult, and can’t, coming from outside the culture.

  144. 144.

    Mnemosyne

    Argh. I accidentally killed my own comment trying to edit it.

    @No one of importance:

    And the article that Doug linked didn’t give you a clue? The fact that the author pointed out that Hitchens had used a worse insult than slut, which is bad enough?

    “Slut” isn’t that bad here in the US. It’s like telling us that it’s a worse insult than “jerk” or “dick.” If you want to insult a woman in the US, “whore” is much worse, and “cunt” will get you a sock in the eye.

    I’d be prepared to accept this explanation except Doug is doubling down and in essence claiming no one else was offended so shut up bitch.

    Given that this is a US blog written (mostly) by people in and from the US, screaming about how this is the most insulting word ever didn’t exactly make your case since none of us had any idea what you were talking about until you finally bothered to explain that it’s insulting in other countries. Maybe try that tack next time instead of deciding that DougJ hates women because he doesn’t know that “slag” is a really bad word in Britain.

  146. 146.

    Mnemosyne

    @DougJ:

    That’s because “fucking” is still a really nasty word here in the US (no matter how often us foul-mouthed commenters use it) so that’s really the attention-drawing word for most of us.

  147. 147.

    harlana

    if i came on BJ and didn’t see something offensive, i’d know something was profoundly wrong =)

  149. 149.

    Amir Khalid

    @Mnemosyne:
    “slag” isn’t an insult we use in Malaysian English. I know it only from my exposure to British English, and it does seem rather more insulting than “slut”.

  151. 151.

    CT Voter

    I don’t think I understand this discussion. DougJ used language that CH used to link to a commentary on Hitchens. That language was offensive, and so DougJ should have introduced it in a different way?

    Why? Hitchens used disgusting language to refer to women. That’s the point that was illuminated. How can that be illuminated by being more civil?

  152. 152.

    Mnemosyne

    @CT Voter:

    Yours was plural, and mine was singular. It’s the only thing I can think of that would get me deleted as spam outright rather than put into moderation.

  153. 153.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @CT Voter: Thus, “Mr Hitchens was known to have, on occasion, used intemperate, and even – dare I say – insulting, language toward women. To whit…” See, easy to do. Lacks impact though.

  157. 157.

    Mnemosyne

    @CT Voter:

    It’s especially hilarious since WordPress otherwise has a hair trigger when it comes to words embedded within words, so it can detect the boner pill hidden inside the word “soshulism” but putting a “s” on the end of the c-word disguises it completely.

    Oh, and FYWP.

  158. 158.

    suzanne

    Having objected to the use of the term “fat” as a slur when it’s not pertinent on this blog before, I want to ask readers of this blog who thought it was okay to call Chris Christie “a disgusting fat fuck” what made that all hunky-dory, yet Hitch’s slur of the Dixie Chicks a bridge too far. Because I humbly submit that neither comment is ever okay.

    I loved Pollitt’s essay. Concur 100%.

  159. 159.

    Keith G

    ..then yes, male privilege is blinding you. The fact he didn’t realise how awful it looked, is indeed down to the XY thing.

    And there we have it, the last refuge for scoundrels lacking a solid foundation for an argument: “privilege“

  160. 160.

    suzanne

    @DougJ:

    Even after you told me what slag meant, I still think “fucking fat” is the offensive part.

    Did you not get the memo? Calling our ideological opponents “fat fucks” is totally cool here on BJ.

  162. 162.

    suzanne

    @eemom: Insinuating that I’m pretentious is just your way of attempting to distract everyone from the fact that you’re a small-minded hypocrite.

    And I TOTALLY cop to being pretentious.

  163. 163.

    eemom

    Anyway, here is an amusing little on topic anecdote, re the “C-word”: back in the ancient days when FDL was still a cool place, TRex used it to refer to someone, I can’t remember who — and all hell broke loose in left blogsylvania about what a disgusting misogynist pig he was.

    As anyone who knows him will attest, TRex doesn’t have a misogynist bone in his sweet therapodic body.

    Thereafter that word was strictly verbotten on FDL. (Again, that was before most other words except for “Jane Hamsher is a totally awesome goddess” and “Barack Obama sucks donkey dicks” became verbotten there as well.)

  164. 164.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @eemom:
    @suzanne: Do you know what I find fun about your ongoing fight? You are both commenters whose presence I truly enjoy. Now stop brawling. Damn it.

  165. 165.

    eemom

    @suzanne:

    If you say so — but actually I wasn’t insinuating that you’re pretentious. I wasn’t insinuating anything. I was, rather, stating outright that you’re an arrogant little self- righteous twit who is in love with the sound of her own voice.

  167. 167.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @eemom: Sure, the sexy ones in our imaginations, not the vicious, brutal, real ones that scare us and make us want to sleep with the lights on.

  168. 168.

    suzanne

    @eemom: And I’ll state, once again, that you’re a hypocrite and a bully, and if you had an iota of decency, you’d apologize for being such a bigot. You offended a lot of people, both directly and indirectly, and the fact that you doubled and tripled down on it rather than admitting that you acted like a fucking spoiled rotten five-year-old reflects poorly upon you, to say the least.

  169. 169.

    eemom

    ….and ANOTHER example: Rude Pundit. He uses the c-word, and the f-word (the THREE letter one), and all manner of personal insults to devastating effect all the time; and he also doesn’t have a bigoted bone of any kind in his body.

    Words are tools; they can be used for all kinds of purposes good and evil. RP is a not only not a bigot, he is a fucking amazing writer and a passionate activist.

    That is why I have no patience for the simple-minded censorship of No Importance and suzie-Q and their ilk.

  170. 170.

    suzanne

    @Omnes Omnibus: I think what she did is reprehensible, and I think she should apologize. The only thing I don’t like about this blog is the casual acceptance of certain types of bigotry, and I hope that the bloggers and the community would be better about policing that.

  171. 171.

    eemom

    @suzanne:

    So far, the score of people I offended with the remark in question — what, three months ago now? — is TWO — you and your Aussie sister in pious pearl clutching.

    You really need to get the fuck over yourself.

  172. 172.

    eemom

    @suzanne:

    I hope that the bloggers and the community would be better about policing that.

    No need to worry about that. You’re an awesome little one-woman police force all by your spunky little self.

  173. 173.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @suzanne: I know you do, but I am just trying to enjoy a nice night on a nice blog after having received a very nice Christmas present in the mail from the soon-to-be-ex-Mme Omnibus along with a very nice note. I am emotionally fucking fragile and you people are not fucking helping.

  174. 174.

    suzanne

    @eemom: So you’re on the record as defending the use of slurs now? Awesome. Well, I’m not surprised, since you also called me fat personally.

    You want me to find you the threads in question? You offended a shitload of people.

    Love how you defend the use of sexist (and racist?) slurs. With allies like you, who needs oppressors?

  175. 175.

    suzanne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I am emotionally fucking fragile and you people are not fucking helping.

    All right, I’ll stop.

    What’d she get you?

    The first Christmas divorced is hard. I’m sorry. You’ll be in my thoughts. Not to sound like a cliche, but it gets better.

  176. 176.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @suzanne: Nice cologne. She really likes that kind of thing, so it is not a throw-away. She has always spent time when buying these things to match personality to fragrance, etc. BTW, not technically divorced yet. But enough about that. Caper for my entertainment, blast you.

  180. 180.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @eemom: Manipulative bastard, ain’t I? I didn’t lie about anything. I just used the truth. I should get out to the bars and use it.

    @Corner Stone: I am/will be okay. Thanks, though.

  186. 186.

    suzanne

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Caper for my entertainment, blast you.

    I think you have me confused with someone who capers.

    I’m trying to think of something I can do for you that’s amusing. Uhhh….I can quote the International Building Code at disturbing length?

  187. 187.

    Corner Stone

    Having an ex-wife is pretty solid when you’re out flirting with the opposite sex. They always figure there’s something going on the other woman couldn’t get to. It’s a challenge.
    Just never, ever…ever, ever, ever tell a woman you have custody of a child.
    Talk about watching eyes roll back in their head like a slot machine.

  188. 188.

    Omnes Omnibus

    @Corner Stone: I don’t have custody of a child, so that’s cool.

    @suzanne:

    Uhhh….I can quote the International Building Code at disturbing length?

    Appreciate the thought, but I wouldn’t want you to go to the trouble. I really wanted the capering.

  189. 189.

    Annamal

    Non-US reader female here (where slag isn’t used but we get a hell of a lot of british tv) and yeah slag is pretty ugly, about the best way I can think of is somewhere between whore and cow (and usually yelled hatefully by drunks).

    I don’t mind it as a quote but would suggest not using it to describe actual female shaped humans…ever

  192. 192.

    binzinerator

    I don’t understand the virulence of this Hitchens hate. Perhaps because Ive read so little of him, and what I’ve read sounded like a mean person who could be insightful at times and say it in a way that was memorable, howerver ugly. There was something of the bully about him.

    But how could he be worse a person, more excerable a man than some one like Kim Jong-Il? One was an asshole who supported those who enacted terrible policies and gave orders that got lots of people killed. The other actually made policy and gave the orders that killed lots of people. I

  193. 193.

    No one of importance

    @DougJ:

    “Even after you told me what slag meant, I still think “fucking fat” is the offensive part.”

    WEll then. That obviously makes it so.

    Even though calling someone a slut or slag *only* has any insulting force if applied to women, and calling a woman easy or slutty or promiscuous or desperate is a lot more denigrating than ‘fat’.

    And now you’ve thrown another insult into the mix, since I’m supposed to be an idiot because you used a word you didn’t know, didn’t bother to look up and now can’t be bothered to understand the import of, and I knew what it mean and went ‘what?’

    Would it kill you to admit you fucked up? I guess it would. How mighty male of you, Doug.

  194. 194.

    No one of importance

    @Mnemosyne:

    ““Slut” isn’t that bad here in the US. ”

    You know, I explained all this above – why ‘slag’ is nastier. Because it’s saying the woman is desperate, ugly, and promiscuous. The only thing going for her in a man’s eyes is the fact she’s available.

    If you guys don’t want to accept that certain words just are really vile in certain cultures, fine. But don’t go telling me *not* to find them offensive. Because it’s not going to work and makes you all look insular and stupid.

  195. 195.

    Paul

    I think that as despicable as calling the Dixie Chicks “fat fucking slags” was, the quote’s been taken out of context. Look it up. Hitchens may have said some stupid sexist and arguably racist things, and held a few paternalistic beliefs that I don’t share, but he most certainly wasn’t a misogynist or a bigot.

  196. 196.

    No one of importance

    @Mnemosyne:

    “you *finally* bothered to explain that it’s insulting in other countries”

    You mean, ‘finally’ as in my first comment on this issue? Where I explained the problem before I told Doug why I found what he did a problem? Where I said:

    Not quite. Slut is a word men use for women of easy affection they would personally like to bang.
    Slag is used for women who like sex but who are unattractive. To men, the only difference between slags and hookers is that slags do it for free.
    Viz magazine encapsulated the term ‘fat slags’ in this cartoon:
    http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-i…..gs-001.jpg
    Basically it’s a repulsive slur, and I was not prepared to see it in large blue letters at the top of this blog when I loaded it this morning.

    Was I supposed to send the information to him telepathically before he wrote the post? That would be the only way I could have ‘bothered to explain’ it sooner.

  198. 198.

    No one of importance

    @suzanne:

    You forgot her lovely homophobia too. Basically there’s no minority she won’t throw under a bus if she can suck up to a Front Pager or man who might think she’s not actually a fool.

    But you’re wasting your time with her, as I am with DougJ. Closed minds and all that. Now I’m being accused by some of not carefully explaining why ‘slag’ is offensive, and others of explaining it too much. Can’t win while bearing ovaries, you just can’t.

    I would never call you a ‘sister’ either. My sister is too much like eemom. Which is why I’ve taken great delight in not speaking to her for nearly 20 years because it’s a waste of braincells.

  199. 199.

    No one of importance

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Sorry, man. Christmas sucks when you’re hurting.

    And in your honor, I shall drop this futile argument. I can’t offer any Christmas cheer, but I suggest you spend some time with natural beauty if you can. It’s good for the wounded soul.

  200. 200.

    suzanne

    @No one of importance: I won’t permanently give up, because I don’t actually care about convincing her of anything. I care about convincing other people that still have a shred of empathy that being bigoted is something one should actually, you know, be ashamed of. But I’ll table for now. I have the feeling she’ll be flagrantly horrible in no time flat. She reminds me of Michele Bachmann in that way.

  201. 201.

    Can't Be Bothered

    @No one of importance:

    How mighty male of you, Doug.

    Fuck right the fuck off. The pearl clutching hypocrites endemic to every crevice of left blogistan make me want to fucking vomit. Go sell your big show by the fainting couch somewhere else madame. We’re not buying here.

  202. 202.

    eemom

    @suzanne: @No one of importance:

    Delusions of Importance meets No Importance. Glad you two found each other. Isn’t the blogosphere beautiful that way?

    Keep sucking each other off with tales of what a fatist man-chasing homophobe I am. I’m not going to defend myself to people whose comprehension of nuance is south of the sledgehammer level.

  203. 203.

    slag

    @DougJ:

    This is an American blog. None of the American women who read the title seemed offended.

    I, for one, was deeply offended. That you did not know what the word meant, that is. And I’m talkin’ ALL of its meanings here. I expect better from you. There will be a test later.

  204. 204.

    slag

    @No one of importance:

    If you guys don’t want to accept that certain words just are really vile in certain cultures, fine. But don’t go telling me not to find them offensive. Because it’s not going to work and makes you all look insular and stupid.

    Insular and stupid? Like getting upset at a person for directly quoting someone while in the process of criticizing what that someone said? Would that look insular and stupid?

  205. 205.

    Mnemosyne

    @No one of importance:

    I notice you didn’t bother to quote yourself all the way to the end:

    Misogyny is obviously less offensive here than homophobia. I’d have thought basic decency would have made you reconsider whether you really need to shove your women readers’ face in it like this.

    Because if DougJ didn’t know how misogynistic the word is in Britain, clearly it’s only because he hates women. Good one.

  206. 206.

    Mnemosyne

    @No one of importance:

    Also, to be clear, the problem isn’t your alerting ignorant people to the fact that it’s an offensive word. The problem is automatically assuming that Americans know it’s an offensive word, so therefore DougJ must have been deliberately trying to offend you with a misogynist slur.

    Going straight to attack mode just makes people assume you’re overreacting. We honestly didn’t realize that this is the misogynist equivalent of “nigger.”

  207. 207.

    cmm

    Jeepers, when I find something offensive online, I turn my back on it and move on, perhaps after a response or comment if it really got my hackles up. But nooneofimportance is spending so much time dwelling on the offense (compounded by other responses to hir response) that I can only conclude that s/he revels in being offended.

  208. 208.

    Paul in KY

    I hated the bastard & am glad he is dead. He was a war-cheerleading scumbag.

    Ms. Pollitt wrote a fine memoriam piece. Better than he deserved, IMO.

  209. 209.

    Paul in KY

    @SteveM: Wasn’t that one of Batman’s arch-enemies?

    Maybe he refered to Catwoman as ‘the Sable Sapphist’ (use the announcer’s voice from the old campy Batman show).

  210. 210.

    Paul in KY

    @Mnemosyne: My mother was born British & she was appalled when she saw the title. Same thing you were mentioning, that ‘shag’ is a dirty word in Britdom.

  212. 212.

    MBunge

    @binzinerator: “I don’t understand the virulence of this Hitchens hate.”

    It’s the same dynamic as Tebowmania. If critics and his own team had just treated Tebow like any other young quarterback, his fans wouldn’t have gotten so riled up. But by talking about how Tebow is so unbelievably terribly that he can’t play in the NFL and should never really even get a chance and anyone who thinks otherwise is just a fool, it was like poking a stick in the eye of everyone who ever liked the guy.

    Likewise, it’s the disproportionate praise of Hitchens as a writer and the belittling of his personal and intellectual flaws that sends people around the bend.

    Mike

  213. 213.

    wrb

    Bahhh

    I thought with a topic like “fucking fat slags” there would be a barn burner of a thread waiting when I checked back in, but everyone just wanted to talk about the dead juicer.

    What a waste.

  214. 214.

    wrb

    Oh, I see people got to a few of the potential topics at the end, but it is weak stuff.

    Ann Coulter is a skinny sl**.

    That is just proper use of language.

    An ugly word to describe something offensive.

  216. 216.

    Porlock Junior

    Chris Hitchens, thou shouldst be living at this hour.

    In today’s news, the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces of Egypt “stresses its great appreciation for the women of Egypt and for their right to protest and to actively, positively participate in political life on the path of democratic transition.”

    He would surely be filled with joy to see a Muslim revolutionary council say this: a pure Christian joy, for as it is said by Saint Paul, love “does not keep account of evil or gloat over the wickedness of other people. On the contrary, it is glad with all good men when truth prevails.”

    Or, you know, with the razor-sharp highly educated English eloquence for which he was admired, maybe he’d just whine about how the islamofascists were pressured into telling a politically correct lie about all those fat slags.

    Bets?

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