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You are here: Home / Working hard in Petersburg

Working hard in Petersburg

by DougJ|  December 23, 20112:58 pm| 52 Comments

This post is in: Our Failed Media Experiment

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I highly recommend Jim Newell’s piece on Politifact (the one John referred to yesterday) if you haven’t read it yet:

What Politifact is, really, is just a blog written by some people at the St. Petersburg Times. But since it calls itself Politifact and assigns ratings that you can just glance over, it undeservedly becomes a irresistible cudgel to use against your political opponents. Politifact! It’s a portmanteau of “politics” and “facts,” so it can’t be wrong. And it just labeled your top party message “PANTS ON FIRE,” the worst rating imaginable! Too many writers, editors and cable news producers love these easily digestible judgments that they can use, cheaply, when pretending to inform their audiences. And I’d bet top dollar that when Krugman or Benen see Politifact label the next major right wing myth “PANTS ON FIRE,” they’ll forget all about today’s unforgivable crime and tell their readers, Look what Politifact said — PANTS ON FIRE!

This is why I stopped citing Politifact altogether this year, even on the numerous occasions when I think they’re right. Why should St. Petersburg Times bloggers’ opinions — no offense to them! — carry authoritative power to make final judgments? They’re imperfect humans who fact-check political claims, just like every other asshole on the Internet. But people have bought into their branding gimmick, their ratings.

Dave Weigel does a good job of summarizing why it isn’t a lie to say that the Ryan plan would indeed end Medicare:

In reality, it is an end to Medicare as we know it. Let’s be fair — as Ramesh Ponnuru pointed out the other day, any substantive change to a program “ends the program as we know it.” When you’re fundamentally changing a program from the way it was designed 45 years ago, you’re ending it as people know it.

….

Democrats weren’t the first to make this characterization. The Wall Street Journal’s reporter Naftali Bendavid did, writing that the Ryan plan “essentially ends Medicare.” Democrats, in their ads and attacks, cited that story to make their claim. I covered the NY-26 race on the ground, and I remember seeing it in the mailers and ads, but anyone can check it. The Bendavid story has never been corrected — corrections are what editors typically do if facts have been misstated.

I’m curious as to whether the St. Petersburg Times political bloggers will go the full Fox now. Politifact has likely lost all credibility with liberal readers, so it seems like it would be a sensible thing for them to do.

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52Comments

  1. 1.

    Corner Stone

    December 23, 2011 at 3:06 pm

    Oh, to remember the more gentle times when people here cited Politifact as a veritable Bible to prove certain things, and as a be-all-end-all to any argument.

  2. 2.

    Thoughtcrime

    December 23, 2011 at 3:07 pm

    Politifart.

    The sound from assholes on the internet.

  3. 3.

    slag

    December 23, 2011 at 3:13 pm

    I’m curious as to whether the St. Petersburg Times political bloggers will go the full Fox now. Politifact has likely lost all credibility with liberal readers, so it seems like it would be a sensible thing for them to do.

    We’re all Juan Williams now.

    I agree with you. That would be the sensible thing to do. The Faux News Corporational pull is clearly too strong for them.

    I can’t decide if the better metaphor here is that of Politifact being overtaken by an Imperial Cruiser or being captured by Reevers.

  4. 4.

    Omnes Omnibus

    December 23, 2011 at 3:17 pm

    You grow up and you calm down.

  5. 5.

    Hill Dweller

    December 23, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    Politifact blew their cover by completely ignoring the readers poll, and elevating the Medicare “lie” to ‘lie of the year’, despite finishing third.

  6. 6.

    MikeJake

    December 23, 2011 at 3:22 pm

    I don’t really agree that they’re basically a blog. Politifact is in newspapers around the country. They have a spot on page 1 of my local rag’s metro section every day. Which doesn’t mean they’re not lazy arbiters, but I think they have a great deal more influence than a blog.

  7. 7.

    Satanicpanic

    December 23, 2011 at 3:22 pm

    I’m starting a new website called SpeechTruthTester. Feel free to cite my arbitrary proclamations.

  8. 8.

    Corner Stone

    December 23, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    @slag:

    I can’t decide if the better metaphor here is that of Politifact being overtaken by an Imperial Cruiser or being captured by Reevers.

    It’s pretty clear this was their plan the whole time.
    One of the reasons I pushed back so hard about people nominally on the left swallowing their pronunciations so completely.

  9. 9.

    Judas Escargot

    December 23, 2011 at 3:29 pm

    Heard Jon Keller, a local-market ‘pundit’ who skews center-right/libertarian on WBZ today citing Politifact to provide cover for the ‘both sides do it’ narrative.

    Very successfully, I might add– and this is a big daytime AM news radio station, so a few tens of thousands of other people heard him also. People who now believe that the GOP (and Ryan specifically) don’t really have an interest in dismantling Medicare, because “they heard it on the radio”.

    This shit matters. The real world’s complicated enough, without things being clouded up with additional, unnecessary bullshit. Now that they’ve given up even the pretense of wanting to be honest, I’ve kind of had it.

    BTW, why do news orgs always seem to hire anti-govt types for the “government reporter” role? That’d be like ESPN hiring me (i.e. someone who can’t stand football) as their chief football correspondent. It’s stupid.

  10. 10.

    Thoughtcrime

    December 23, 2011 at 3:29 pm

    Times are tough all over:

    http://www.newser.com/story/136013/ex-citigroup-sandy-weill-selling-yacht-april-fool.html

  11. 11.

    JPL

    December 23, 2011 at 3:29 pm

    Also, too…It was the repubs who saved the middle class from higher taxes…

  12. 12.

    slag

    December 23, 2011 at 3:32 pm

    @Corner Stone:

    One of the reasons I pushed back so hard about people nominally on the left swallowing their pronunciations so completely.

    Here’s the thing though…At least they made some effort to explain their reasoning. Even though their ratings system was stupid (as has been discussed here before), it is sometimes nice to see some effort being made toward citing evidence beyond “some Republicans say”. I want more of that. But without the stupid gimmickry that inevitably leads one down the path that Politifact has gone. Why is that so hard to come by? Is it that many have tried and failed? I don’t understand.

  13. 13.

    Mnemosyne

    December 23, 2011 at 3:32 pm

    I don’t think it is (or should be) an automatic disqualifier that they’re not at a New York or Washington DC newspaper. The automatic disqualifier is that they’ve revealed themselves to be dishonest, not that they’re dirty bloggers from outside the beltway.

  14. 14.

    Benjamin Franklin

    December 23, 2011 at 3:34 pm

    Kinda on topic…..since the subject is our mahvalous Me-dia and their selfless endeavors to uncover the ‘facts’.

    Keep in mind, they were howling with outrage when Wikileaks outed the Tunisian regime.

    http://themoderatevoice.com/132817/egypts-progress/

    “Approaching the one-year anniversary of the Arab spring, it’s very easy to forget that the events of 2011 would have been unthinkable last Christmas. Browse through the op-ed pages of every major newspaper or foreign policy journal, or the title of any of the books that were being published on the region this time last year: not a single clear, quantifiable notion that one man’s self-immolation in Tunisia would light the entire region on fire. One of the earliest, and perhaps the most important, of these fires, was Egypt. I venture to say, contrary to many, that things are going fine there a year later.”

    Thank you, Wikileaks.

  15. 15.

    Corner Stone

    December 23, 2011 at 3:37 pm

    @slag:

    But without the stupid gimmickry that inevitably leads one down the path that Politifact has gone. Why is that so hard to come by? Is it that many have tried and failed? I don’t understand.

    They have a product to sell.

  16. 16.

    slag

    December 23, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    @Corner Stone: Don’t we all. I think a service-based economy wouldn’t actually be so bad if we could actually get together and agree on what services would be useful. Instead, we get different versions of the same crappy services over and over again. Just like with a manufacturing economy.

    Seriously, if the holidays are good for anything, it’s for overwhelming you with an overabundance, giving you no choice but to look around and ask: What is all this shit?

  17. 17.

    delphi_ote

    December 23, 2011 at 3:53 pm

    @slag: How about both? Empire = Koch brothers and the beltway insiders. Reevers = Tea Party.

  18. 18.

    kindness

    December 23, 2011 at 3:54 pm

    Put PolitiFact together with the WaPo’s fact checking genius and you have the cast of One Flew Over the Cookoo’s Nest without Jack Nicholson.

  19. 19.

    jl

    December 23, 2011 at 3:56 pm

    I have never liked these truth rating organizations. I’m not sure whether I ever linked or cited to one to support some position.

    But so what if I or anyone else did that? How did the commenter use the truthometor, or the nose o meter or whatever gimmick widget the particular organization used?

    Did they say ‘Ha ha, look, pants on fire pants on fire ha ha ha, Politifact sez so’?

    Or did they refer to the pompous fact check org’s documentation as a good capsule summary of the argument?

    Those are two different things.

    But in any case, you have the similar problem at work when a trusted and reliable colleague starts to go crazy because he or she is becoming alcoholic or crazed from too much blow at wild parties. People can say ‘Well, last year, you said so and so was a reliable source, now they are nuts’. What do you say? You have to say that you have not changed, but that your colleague has changed.

    Same with Politico. (edit: I meant Politifact. But, maybe a Freudian slip, out of fear of what Politifact might be turning into)

    I think that their statement that the minor tweak of adding ‘as we know it’ to ‘ryan plan ends medicare’ would have transported a downright miserable lie directly and miraculously into a spotless and eternal truth is asinine, absurd, stupid, moronic, laughable, and casts doubt upon their sanity and judgment.

    There is no contradiction between relying on the work of a half decent referee, but you need to call the ref when it blows a call. If this episode dissuades commenters from committing the fallacy of argument by authority when they cite Politifact or any other pompous self appointed fact checker, then so much the better.

  20. 20.

    slag

    December 23, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    @delphi_ote: It is both. It’s just weird how well they work together in making the universe a dangerous and primitive place.

  21. 21.

    espierce

    December 23, 2011 at 3:59 pm

    This is my local newspaper and it’s foundations have been crumbling since Eugene Patterson gave up the helm.

    PolitiFact may be mere bloggers, but it’s a service/franchise that’s being peddled nationwide with some success.

    Too bad they just shot their credibility to hell and moved over to the dark side.

    RIP, PolitiFact.

  22. 22.

    BGinCHI

    December 23, 2011 at 4:01 pm

    Countdown until Politifact’s new name:

    “Xe.”

  23. 23.

    Corner Stone

    December 23, 2011 at 4:03 pm

    @jl:

    But so what if I or anyone else did that? How did the commenter use the truthometor, or the nose o meter or whatever gimmick widget the particular organization used?
    __
    Did they say ‘Ha ha, look, pants on fire pants on fire ha ha ha, Politifact sez so’?

    As long as it suited their purposes they used it as a shut-down tool to any disagreement. Nuance or deeper understanding need not apply.
    And yes, as long as Politifact supported their argument, that was the bottom line.

  24. 24.

    JGabriel

    December 23, 2011 at 4:04 pm

    DougJ:

    I’m curious as to whether the St. Petersburg Times political bloggers will go the full Fox now.

    Calling the truth about Ryan’s Medicare plan “Lie of the Year”, then calling it a Democratic lie when it started with the Wall St. Journal, means that Politibought already gone the full Fox now.

    .

  25. 25.

    gbear

    December 23, 2011 at 4:05 pm

    Change their name to Politifactiness?

  26. 26.

    slag

    December 23, 2011 at 4:05 pm

    @BGinCHI: Can I just say how well that name change worked for those fuckers. I just Googled it to see what came up, and it wasn’t until the second page of hits that Blackwater came up. And even then, it was just their website on the Google hit page…no description whatsoever.

  27. 27.

    rlrr

    December 23, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    @gbear:

    Politifactless

  28. 28.

    BGinCHI

    December 23, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    @slag: I think they just changed it from Xe to something else. Can’t remember what, so I guess they win.

    Fuck Erik the Fascist and that whole bunch.

  29. 29.

    jl

    December 23, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    @Corner Stone: Maybe so, but I don’t recall any rampant Politico citing here. But then I skip a lot of posts out of lack of interest.

    @JGabriel:
    That is what ‘hours of journalistic research’ gets you.

  30. 30.

    West of the Rockies (formerly Frank W.)

    December 23, 2011 at 4:10 pm

    I popped onto the site this morning; at the time I noticed that beneath the “Lie of the Year” story were about a dozen other ratings on various statements made by pols — most of them (at the time I looked) were Republican lies. It made me wonder if Politicrap was trying (in the words of Nixon) to “make nicey-nice” with its liberal readers.

  31. 31.

    ericblair

    December 23, 2011 at 4:16 pm

    @West of the Rockies (formerly Frank W.):

    It made me wonder if Politicrap was trying (in the words of Nixon) to “make nicey-nice” with its liberal readers.

    Maybe, which makes them useless in a different way: instead of a veneer of truthiness on top of gooper bullshit, they’re a political weathervane that tosses a goodie at whoever’s pissed at them today.

  32. 32.

    Epicurus

    December 23, 2011 at 4:35 pm

    How long? Not long at all…

    Having trouble with the link, here goes:

    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_12/politifact_returns_to_the_scen034283.php

  33. 33.

    Hill Dweller

    December 23, 2011 at 4:40 pm

    OT: DoJ blocks South Carolina’s voter ID law.

  34. 34.

    JPL

    December 23, 2011 at 4:45 pm

    @Hill Dweller: That’s big news..

  35. 35.

    Cassidy

    December 23, 2011 at 4:50 pm

    Reevers = Tea Party.

    You do a disservice to bloodlusting nutjobs who eat thier own.

  36. 36.

    Roger Moore

    December 23, 2011 at 5:08 pm

    Do you really think they’re working on the clampdown? Or are they just teaching their twisted speech to the young believers?

  37. 37.

    Anne Laurie

    December 23, 2011 at 5:10 pm

    @BGinCHI:

    I think they just changed it from Xe to something else. Can’t remember what, so I guess they win.

    Academi. So if Politifactuals wants a re-brand, I guess Erik Prince has a briefly-used Deliberate Obfuscation Label(tm) for sale.

  38. 38.

    Dave

    December 23, 2011 at 5:23 pm

    @Roger Moore: If this was yesterday, it would be sublime, but still, wherever JS is today, I’m sure he’s giving you a sage nod and a raised fist.

    He’s sending the lawyers after DougJ because, fuck, he just owes royalties at this point.

    ETA: Just noticed Omnes Omnibus got there first.

  39. 39.

    fasteddie9318

    December 23, 2011 at 5:26 pm

    When will some enterprising soul start up “Politifactfact.com” to fact check the imbeciles at Politifact? They’ve got one today calling Tim Kaine’s statement that George Allen cast the deciding vote on Shrub’s tax cuts “False” (not even “Mostly False,” let alone “Half True”) because, according to them, by this logic you could say that each of the 50 senators who voted for the second round of cuts (allowing Cheney to break the tie) cast “the deciding vote.” Well, gee, morans, when something passes the Senate by the vice president’s fucking tie breaker, guess what? Every senator who voted for it did, in fact, cast the deciding vote!. Because, you know, if they had voted against it, the goddamn thing wouldn’t have passed! Fucking math, how does it work? Somebody please let Politifact.com know.

  40. 40.

    Boots Day

    December 23, 2011 at 5:47 pm

    And I’d bet top dollar that when Krugman or Benen see Politifact label the next major right wing myth “PANTS ON FIRE,” they’ll forget all about today’s unforgivable crime and tell their readers, Look what Politifact said — PANTS ON FIRE!

    I’ll happily take that bet. Liberals really don’t operate this way; we call things a lie if they’re a lie, not if some supposedly neutral truth-teller calls them a lie.

    When it comes right down to it, things like PolitiFact are for people who don’t know what’s going on, and need someone to tell them what the truth is. That’s sure not Paul Krugman.

    In a way, this claim is just a variation on the “Both sides do it!” meme.

  41. 41.

    carpeduum

    December 23, 2011 at 5:48 pm

    I hereby designate thee PolitiFuked for the urban dictionary. They don’t have any more credibility with me that’s for sure. And credibility is everything in the game they are playing.

  42. 42.

    carpeduum

    December 23, 2011 at 5:50 pm

    @Judas Escargot: What is AM radio? Didn’t that go away with black and white TV? I don’t personally know anyone who still listens to AM radio.

  43. 43.

    Redshift

    December 23, 2011 at 6:03 pm

    @fasteddie9318: I guess we can update our Politifact translator to include “false=hairsplitting” to the previous “pants on fire=willfully misinterpreting”.

  44. 44.

    West of the Rockies (formerly Frank W.)

    December 23, 2011 at 6:10 pm

    Hey, Boots Day @41… I know that this liberal calls a lie a lie even when it’s told by one on our side. By the way, your forum name — is that based on the old Montreal Expo player? That goes back a ways!

  45. 45.

    RinaX

    December 23, 2011 at 6:13 pm

    @Hill Dweller:

    I was just reading about that. This, of course, proves that there’s no real difference between both sides.

  46. 46.

    Boots Day

    December 23, 2011 at 7:22 pm

    @West of the Rockies (formerly Frank W.):

    Yes, that’s where it comes from. I had his baseball card as a kid and always loved that name.

    I know some liberal pundits – can’t recall exactly who – complained that PolitiFact called Michele Bachmann’s claim about what some doctor had said to her about vaccinations a lie, when it probably wasn’t a lie at all. It may have been nutty, but it was certainly plausible that Bachmann had actually heard the claim made.

    So no, both sides DON’T do it.

  47. 47.

    shep

    December 23, 2011 at 7:25 pm

    Politifact has likely lost all credibility with liberal readers…

    Hubris is expensive. Who knew?

  48. 48.

    amk

    December 23, 2011 at 7:26 pm

    @Corner Stone: Your dumb point being that politifact is beyond criticism?

  49. 49.

    H.E. Pennypacker, Wealthy Industrialist

    December 23, 2011 at 9:10 pm

    They put up a poster saying we earn more than you.

  50. 50.

    LosGatosCA

    December 23, 2011 at 11:03 pm

    I’m curious as to whether the St. Petersburg Times political bloggers will go the full Fox now. Politifact has likely lost all credibility with liberal readers, so it seems like it would be a sensible thing for them to do.

    That may have been the intent from the start. They may have simply made the judgment that maximizing the value of their blog would be to effectively join with Rasmussen, Drudge, and Faux News. Certainly they now have full legitimacy with the right wingnuts to join the ‘limited’ partnership.

  51. 51.

    HE Pennypacker, Wealthy Industrialist

    December 23, 2011 at 11:17 pm

    @carpeduum: I guess you can count yourself fortunate that you don’t travel in AM-listening circles, but a lot of America does for their force-fed diet of rightwing bullshit and religio-whack…

  52. 52.

    Dennis Doubleday

    December 23, 2011 at 11:18 pm

    The St. Petersburg Times has long been one of the most liberal papers in the country. I remember that because when I would visit my mother-in-law in St. Pete I was always impressed with their willingness to withstand the Iraq War fever.

    So, I would be surprised by a “full Fox”.

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