For those of you who found my post earlier today offensive, you really should stay away from Mary’s Twitter account.
(Thanks, Nutella)
by $8 blue check mistermix| 102 Comments
This post is in: Humorous
For those of you who found my post earlier today offensive, you really should stay away from Mary’s Twitter account.
(Thanks, Nutella)
Comments are closed.
parsimon
People found the earlier post totally offensive? I’m not quite surprised, but found it terrific myself. Happy solstice.
opie jeanne
No, this is funny, even to this believer.
Mino
Irreverence is hardly ever out of place. “No name change!”
Mnemosyne
I think most people’s reaction was, “For a purported former Catholic, you sure don’t remember much from your CCD classes.” It sounded like something a Protestant would write (“You Papists say you love Mary, but you never talk about her labor pains! What about that, Catholic idolaters?”)
LongHairedWeirdo
You can’t have Enya; she hasn’t been born yet. But you can have some Kenny Loggins.
Brian S
@Mnemosyne: Seriously? Am I ever glad I didn’t go into that thread today.
Schlemizel
@Mnemosyne:
Yeah, and those suppositions are what lead to GFY posts. Instead of assuming honest intent on the part of the poster we sometimes allow our own prejudices to impose motives on others.
If MM had a history of bomb throwing or anti-Catholic vitriol it might be understandable.
Schlemizel
4-things-both-atheists-believers-need-to-stop-saying
http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-things-both-atheists-believers-need-to-stop-saying/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=fanpage&utm_campaign=new+article&wa_ibsrc=fanpage
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
Mary had it rough, no doubt, but lets be honest what kinda ho doesn’t even remember getting pregnant, much less who the father is, and doesn’t have an abortion? i’m pretty sure even back then, they had a way.
so while i am sure it was a hell of an ordeal, lets also wonder why all of a sudden birth is some big event to all these pro-lifers? why don’t they celebrate the beginning of jesus so-called life, from their perspective only. i mean seriously, when they talk about putting the christ back in christmas, i have to ask, who is suddenly valuiing the very concept of birth all of a sudden?
and while we are giving props to mary, lets shout out joseph. it takes a bigger man than me to walk a women who won’t give it up all the way through the desert burning his damned feet while her fat happy ass sits on the only camel. i mean sure, he probably didn’t have any better options, and at his age, the rumors about him still being unmarried and why were all around town. and surely no one really believed mary when she said she was a preggo virgo, though they were probably too polite to say anything. maybe he figured his friends at least thought he must be getting laid even if she wouldn’t admit it, and that was good enough for him. until walking through the desert, calling her every name not in the book under his breath.
the worst part for joseph was after jesus was born. you know when mary was finally out of excuses not to….so he finally is getting some, and after some time he probably got good enough at it to at least not bore her out of her mind. what is his payoff? mary screaming OH GOD! OH GOD, OH GOD YES!
you know that had to hurt.
Yutsano
Jesus had several siblings. So this part is at least true.
joeyess
How could any sentient being be offended by that post. It’s a good question. The more we question Tebow’s god, the more we learn it’s one big hustle.
Bubblegum Tate
Why’s everybody talking about this Mary lady, anyway? Today is James Brown Day, and that doesn’t have anything to do with any Mary. Lyn Collins, Marva Whitney, Vicki Anderson, sure, but no Mary.
serge
We’re all damned, not to mention doomed. That’s my cheerful contribution to this Christmas dialogue. I thought your earlier post was fine…it did bring out the non-apostates, and that is always fun.
Amanda in the South Bay
@serge:
I just think that most skeptics’ worldview is at least semi-Protestant in its basic assumptions, and is rather ignorant of much of history and theology.
Says the skeptic herself.
burnspbesq
@joeyess:
Your question proves that you don’t get it. People of faith are subjected to a level of crap around here that no would would consider dishing out to people of color or to the GLBT community. It’s tiresome.
Brian S
@burnspbesq: You guys run the rest of the damn world. Get the fuck over yourself, you whiny jackwagon.
Menzies
@opie jeanne:
Agreed with this. I’m a practicing Latin American Catholic (though I only recently got back into the faith) and I always considered myself a highly Marian one. Befits a Hispanic upbringing, too – the Marian Catholic movement seems to have originated in Germany and Spain, and the Marist Brothers are a pretty big community in Latin America.
That said, I find Mary’s Twitter account (and Mrs. Jesus Christ or whatever her name is) hilarious.
@Schlemizel:
MM does have a history of anti-Catholic vitriol, though a lot of it, I’ll be first in line to admit, is well-deserved.
@burnspbesq:
I didn’t find the post offensive, but I’m certainly not your usual Catholic. (Not that I would ever disrespect someone for being more traditional or more respectful of their faith than I am; that would be incredibly hypocritical.) That said, I agree – I’m friends with plenty of atheists and agnostics who often forget that they’re talking to a Catholic when I’m the one on the other side of the conversation.
LongHairedWeirdo
@burnspbesq:
I’d love to have you trade places with one of those folks for a few weeks – not just “have to live like them” for a few weeks, but to actually end up with a trade in place, where you’d have all the memories and all of the feelings, and get to hear religious folks, who say you bear the mark of Cain, or are going to “burn in hell, forever, you despicable sinner,” are all so *oppressed* and *get so much shit*.
When you came back to ordinary reality, I think you might still be upset that there are some measures of shit doled out to “people of faith” but I think you’d have a sense of perspective.
Evolving Deep Southerner (tense changed for accuracy)
@burnspbesq: Not wanting to get in on the “dishing out” around here except to the people who want to be pious now and absolutely shitty in other contexts *cough* eemom *cough* but “people of faith” really isn’t the same as “people of color” or the GLBT community, is it?
One is a choice. The other two really aren’t, unless you subscribe to the notion that homosexuality is learned and not an inborn trait. In that case, you really are a “person of faith.”
joeyess
@burnspbesq: That may be true, but people of color and GLBT’ers don’t have their worldview reaffirmed on every other goddamn street corner in every goddamn city, on nearly every television channel, and in the nation’s lexi-fucking-con, do they?
I swear…. you do know the hardest part about becoming a self-marty, don’t you?
Driving in that last nail.
If you’re going to go on whining about the “level of crap” you have to put up with here about your imaginary friend, try this: The next time you spend a dollar on something try turning that dollar around and gazing at the back of it. I’m pretty sure it doesn’t say “In Red Foxx We Trust” or “In Elton John We Trust”.
Christ.
Amanda in the South Bay
@burnspbesq:
I think the difference is that people have had very negative personal experiences with religion in a way they haven’t had with the two marginalized groups you mentioned.
Personally, I’m somewhat of an agnostic, but I’ve tended to think that most skeptics anti-Christian arguments come from at least half baked anti-Catholicism “Its not in the Bible, that’s clearly a pagan holiday!”-that kind of stuff. The assumption being that Catholics (and by extension Orthodox, though they never show up on anyone’s radar) rely on the Bible as the sole source of doctrine and belief. As well as just being grossly misleading and ignorant about history.
I wasted the better part of my late teens/early 20s in college libraries reading books from interlibrary loan about Christianity in late antiquity and Byzantine history/theology. So yeah, the whole “its all pagan accretions” part makes me think that even for skeptics (and lapsed Catholics) Americans as a whole are profoundly formed by a very Protestant view of Christianity.
Mnemosyne
I posted this at the bottom of the previous thread, but I think Karen Horney had the answer to MM’s original question:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womb_and_vagina_envy
sherifffruitfly
I’m guessing this line didn’t go over so well? “Jesus, who basically asked to be executed….”
I can totally see zealots going apeshit of that kind of thing.
BGinCHI
Queen Bobo:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32245200@N00/5225778740/
That is all.
For now.
Crusty Dem
The post was only offensive for its stupidity. Lapsed catholic thinks Mary doesn’t get enough attention. Holy Mary, mother of God is that dense.
Yutsano
@BGinCHI: Can’t you just say, “I hate you!” like most normal folks?
Mnemosyne
Why? The entire point of the Jesus story is that he was born to be a willing sacrifice to redeem the sins of the world. I can’t imagine even the most ignorantly overzealous Christianist getting upset at being reminded of that.
Mnemosyne
Makes me wonder if someone wasn’t paying attention in CCD if he thinks the Catholic Church ignores Mary. As others pointed out, she’s basically the mother goddess, second only to the Trinity themselves.
BGinCHI
@Yutsano: You needed to see that so that you could count your blessings. Can you imagine having to live with that guy?
/shivers
Villago Delenda Est
@Crusty Dem:
No, that’s not a very honest read of what mistermix was saying.
His point is that the human suffering of Mary, as a woman giving birth, even to a “divine” child, isn’t even touched on. It’s waved away as part of the entire miraculous gestation of an offspring sired by a deity.
The entire birthing process is hardly a walk in the park for most women. THAT aspect of the humanity of Jesus is sadly shunted aside so we can concentrate on all the drummer boys, gift giving kings, and talking animals in the manger.
Mnemosyne
(I can’t use the Reply button on the iPod Touch. FYWP.)
I do think Amanda has a good point that American Public Christianity (including Christmas) is almost overwhelmingly Protestant, which can lead to some oddball arguments.
I’m already pissed off that the RCC’s hierarchy decided to strangle Vatican II in the cradle, and the increasing Protestantization of Catholicism isn’t helping.
Roy G
More Xmas fun: Do you know who the earliest recorded case of PMS was?
A: Mary – she rode Joseph’s ass all the way to Bethlehem!
(rimshot)
The prophet Nostradumbass
@Mnemosyne: On the iPad, at least, the reply button doesn’t automatically show up, but if you touch the “Link” link, it then appears.
Brian S
@Mnemosyne: I find that, on my iPad at least, if you hit the link button, the reply button magically appears for you.
Brian S
@Mnemosyne: About the Catholic Church ignoring Mary–they don’t, that’s true. They do worse than that–they mythologize her, turn her into something infinitely less interesting than a human woman thrust into an impossible situation (without her consent, mind you) who has to deal with the fallout in a world which is not going to believe her story. Nope, she’s turned into a goddess, divine, placed on a pedestal only to be gazed at and adored. Even the minor Greek goddesses are more interesting than what the Church turned Mary into.
bystander
You are joking, right?
Gosh, I guess not.
Well, okay, “My Jesus forgives the homophobia of your Jesus.” (h/t)
Menzies
@Mnemosyne:
That, to me, is the most annoying part of all of this – it’s bad enough (relatively speaking – I’m not going to claim I’ve got a hard life in general) being a Papist without the RCC doing its level best to screw over my claims that at least the Church tries to do some good things.
Which I suppose it does, but definitely not with the same vigor it uses to attack abortion and homosexuality. It’s one reason I find it hard to be a full-bore Catholic.
West of the Rockies (formerly Frank W.)
This IS funny IMO. Good stuff!
Shadow's Mom
Worth the read: Real Family – Nativity Edition http://chirpstory.com/li/3611
Benjamin Franklin
@burnspbesq:
If you are an example of faith I suggest you consider the weight you carry.
Mark 9:42, Matthew 6:5.
toujoursdan
I didn’t find your post offensive, just rather ignorant.
aimai
Jesus (sic) I actually did labor to Enya the first time. Fifteen years later just hearing Enya is enough to send me into labor again.
aimai
Dr. Squid
@aimai: When my son was born in August, Robot Chicken was on the teevee.
Does this mean anything?
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@burnspbesq: “People of faith” think I deserve to be tortured for the rest of time because I don’t buy into their stupid cult regarding the time God raped a woman so she’d give birth to Himself, all so He could be murdered so that God could start forgiving the people He created and He wouldn’t be forced to torture them for all of time for the sins He made up.
Oh, so sorry. Obviously it’s the duty of us atheists to cowtow to the delicate sensibilities of those who’d see us all burned at the fucking stake.
Cheryl from Maryland
@Dr. Squid: That you have a sense of humor and good taste? I love me some Robot Chicken.
Trentrunner
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Ok, that’s going in my 2012 Christmas cards.
Keith G
@Mnemosyne:
Good Jumping Jesus, did you and the other malcontents read what MM posted or are you too fricking egg-nogged to think?
Here is a sample
Come on.
Brian R.
@Schlemizel:
Are you new here?
joeyess
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: yep.
Brian R.
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Yes, yes, we Catholics want to see all atheists burned at the stake.
I’m sorry, but you all were in the process of lecturing burns about how he was presenting himself here as a self-martyr. Do continue.
Lysana
Christians complaining about being set upon are the religious equivalent of men complaining about discussions of misogyny. The extremist atheists who attempt to offend on purpose are the men’s rights movement of the opposition.
Is there misinfomation about Christianity out there? Of course. There are people who don’t understand the intersectionality of privilege and sometimes miss the fact that the guy they’re talking to is speaking from a mixed background himself.
But no, dear Christians, you are NOT set upon. You’re the majority, and you will damn well learn how to take your lumps and roll with it in a pluralist society. Draping yourself in the robes of the martyr over well-meaning misinformation is using your privilege as a weapon.
However, assholes like Baron Jagoff… er, Jrod up there? Can go poison a well as far as this pagan’s concerned. Refuse to speak accurately about someone’s mythology? Shut the fuck up.
Villago Delenda Est
@Brian R.:
Well, we do throw bombs at boy-buggerers and the officials who cover up their crimes, and move them around so they have fresh victims for their predations.
So if that counts as anti-Catholic, well, I guess we are. Forgive us for placing the victim’s needs ahead of the appetites of alleged adults who infest an institution that is utterly corrupt.
toujoursdan
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire:
Oh, Get a grip. Perhaps fundamentalist Christians believe that atheists are going to hell, but that is a pretty tiny fraction of all “people of faith” – Liberal Christians, [most] Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, etc.
Look, I don’t see any Christian here saying that they are set upon or oppressed in society. But there certainly is a lot of religion (and specifically Christian) bashing on this blog. I think it’s self defeating as it alienates the growing number of religious who reject the religious right and want to build a pluralistic, compassionate fairer society. But if progressives want to shoot themselves in the foot by creating the same kind of ideological purity tests found on firebagger sites (and on the right wing), the so be it.
The prophet Nostradumbass
This song seems appropriate for this thread.
Brian R.
@Villago Delenda Est:
Well played.
Go punch a nun now. You’re such a big man!
Emma
That is truly hysterical. BTW, do you know the story of the Jewish lady who went looking for Mary when she got to heaven? (yes, I know, stay with me here). She wanted to ask Mary why She was so often portrayed as sad? Mary smiled at her and then whispered: “I really wanted a girl.”
I come from a tradition of very personal relationship with Jesus and Mary, and that includes a little teasing and a little healthy questioning. Cubans have hundreds of funny Jesus and Mary stories. So this isn’t offensive at all.
Schlemizel
@Brian R.:
Sadly, no. Maybe I am dense or age is starting to affect my memory but I don’t recall anti-Catholic rants here, I have seen attacks on the churches actions and behaviors but that is a separate issue.
Good thing this is a political blog, can’t talk guns, can’t talk religion . . . guess we need more food posts unless their are some religious vegans here.
During the Pleistocene epoch I was on a vegetarian listserv because there were some great recipes. If you wanted to see some some full on flame wars step on the toes of some of those people – there was a three day set-to over the morality of Inuit people eating a meat only diet that would have made BJ’ers proud!
Emma
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: No we don’t. Some morons who call themselves people of faith but do not live up to either the letter of the spirit of faith may want to, but the majority of them just ignore you and go their own way.
J. Michael Neal
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Clearly, since Christopher Hitchens was an atheist, it is perfectly justified to belittle you for wanting to kill Iraqis.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Brian R.:
Considering that is exactly what the Catholic Church did last time it had sway over governments, I’d say it’s a legitimate concern.
@toujoursdan:
I apologize for using “people of faith” there. I was trying to be snarky by quoting burns but it painted too broad a brush. Clearly Hindus don’t think I’ll be burning in hell, though in truth I’m not sure reincarnation as a housefly is a better fate. And if there are Christians who actually don’t believe that everyone outside of their sect will be tormented in the flames for all of eternity, then good on them.
However, most flavors of Christianity say otherwise, as does the Bible.
Look, I’m supposedly so full of hatred and anger. I say mean things here at BJ. But I’ve never wished that my enemies would be put through horrific torment for the rest of time. It’s a commonly held Christian belief that everyone who’s either not Christian or not the right kind of Christian will be tortured eternally. It’s fair to ask who’s really being hateful here.
Throw in the fact that a hell of a lot of Christians will never vote for anyone who doesn’t believe in their myths, or at least some myth, because they see atheists as inherently immoral and evil, while atheists regularly vote for the religious, and it’s not exactly painting a picture of the poor oppressed religious.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@J. Michael Neal: Which part of atheist dogma holds that Iraq must be invaded? Can you give the chapter and verse?
Keith G
@toujoursdan:
Really?
What I see is a lot of snark directed at the comfortable and the powerful as well as those who want to proscribe the choices of others. When a religious institution or actor behaves thusly, I guess they become a target.
Funny tho, I haven’t seen Unitarians or the UCC bashed herein, and I assume that they are Christians. No?
Brachiator
It wasn’t just that it was offensive (especially since I am a non believer). It is that it was stupid, and seemed not to have any point other than poking a stick at believers on, for some, a religious holiday.
And now you double down with snark, the contemporary next to last refuge of scoundrels.
I don’t see the point, other than your just wanting to attract attention to yourself for all the wrong reasons.
Do you ever want to be taken seriously, or are you considering a career in stand up? If the latter, you need better material.
Aexia
@Schlemizel:
Last week, Hitchens — known for his intellect, eloquence and insufferable arrogance — achieved his life-long goal of becoming God by ceasing to exist.
Probably the funniest thing I’ve ever read at Cracked.
MikeJ
@Brachiator: Many people believe that if you’re allowed to be a dick, you’re required to be a dick.
JoeShabadoo
I didn’t find anything offensive in your posts, just extreme ignorance. Not just about Christianity but about how births are treated and celebrated.
Why would anyone expect the focus to be on Mary’s birthing pains when the son of God is born? Read that sentence and think about where you would put the focus, the child or the act. In any birth the focus is on the the child and not on the pain it takes to give birth.
On your birthday do you recount the labor pains of your mother? Wait you don’t?!! Instead you celebrate it as a wonderful thing and give gifts! Why do you hate your mother?
Lojasmo
@burnspbesq:
As an atheist, I need to tell you the level of crap Catholics have to put up with is porpfoundly minimal, and largely deserved based on their flailing and hypocritical support of an unsupportable institution.
A Humble Lurker
@JoeShabadoo:
So the effort it took for the woman in question to bring the son of God into the word doesn’t matter? Then why the hell do we have saints if the efforts of humans to carry out God’s will or suffer for its sake doesn’t matter?
suzanne
@Keith G:
If you’re discussing the Unitarian Universalists, no, they’re not all Christians. Some identify as Christian, some as Jewish, some as humanists, some as atheists, and many as combinations thereof.
And my pastor, who’s Methodist, says that 1/3 of Methodists are UUs. So the boundaries are not strict by denomination, either. Best way to find out how someone believes is still, you know, to ask them.
This Christian doesn’t believe anyone is going to Hell, ever.
aimai
I don’t even get the notion that it was “offensive” to speculate on a matter of obvious dogma and theology–someone in the problem thread actually pointed out that the question of the nature and meaning of Mary’s labor (and, no doubt, her “experience” of the conception) were actually debated in the early church. Of course they were! Everything was debated–the divinity of Jesus, when it was conferred on him, whether he was divine and merely appeared human or whether he was human and had divinity conferred on him. Whether Mary herself was “immaculatly conceived”–she was in case you are wondering–whether she ever “died” or rather was “assumed into heaven.” These are and were all important questions within the Christian church. If the Church fathers who debated these questions weren’t blaspheming then why accuse Mistermix of doing something wrong?
These questions actually make real and sensible (in the sense of sensual) what is basically unreal and lacks meaning for a whole lot of people. The Marian Idolatry as Protestants like to call it grew up, like everything else in the religion, because people interjected their own needs and beliefs onto a mythical cast of characters with whom they were familiar and they loved the idea of god’s mother being available to them to worship and to intercede for them. So, Nu? Women have been praying to Mary for help qua mothers for centuries. Mistermix is just reminding us that this could have been done with Church sanction and might have had a profound effect on the relationship of women to the church.
aimai
aimai
@JoeShabadoo:
Man, you must not have a mother. I certainly remember–and celebrate!–my three days of labor with my first child and my ten hours of unmedicated home birth with my second. “As men to war–so women to childbirth” as my mother put it in a poem. Yah-women actually do care about our “labor.”
aimai
Hubris
It wasn’t offensive, just insipid. It presumably aspired to be offensive but failed.
JoeShabadoo
@A Humble Lurker:
Please read my post again with a modicum of reading comprehension this time. I said absolutely nothing like what you just said. I said “the affordable care act” and you said “death panels.”
As with any birth the focus will be on the baby afterwards. When the baby happens to be God you should kind of expect everything else to be overshadowed even more. To expect any event that involves the son of God to not focus on him is a bit ridiculous to begin with and beyond that I can’t think of a single birthday of regular people I have ever celebrated that focused on the mother’s labor pains instead of the child or adult who’s birthday it was.
@aimai:
First of all I said nothing about people not caring about labor. Take the advice above and reread my post.
You must celebrate birthdays completely differently from most of the rest of the world. I have been to many and never seen anyone celebrate the birthing pains of the mother. It is all “Wow, what a blessing!” “She’s so beautiful!” for younger babies and congratulating the child as they get older and talking about their growth. It’s painful and difficult but it simply isn’t the part of a birth that it celebrated publicly. When the child is the son of God one should expect the focus on the baby to be magnified even more.
J. Michael Neal
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: It is your assumption that Christian doctrine necessarily holds that unbelievers will burn in Hell that justifies the comparison. Do you realize that Catholic doctrine *explicitly* states that an atheist can be saved? No, apparently, you don’t.
As with most subjects, you think you know a lot more than you actually do, and are proud to display your ignorance at any and all opportunities.
J. Michael Neal
@Lojasmo:
You clearly don’t know very many Catholics, many of whom are quite critical of the institution.
Merry Christmas
@Schlemizel:
Wasn’t this the same MM asshole who said that any Catholic who gives any money to any Catholic charity in any form whatsoever is financing child molestation? The same MM asshole who persisted in that wrong-headed, bigoted presumption, even when it was pointed out to him that he was incorrect, and had apparently never heard of parish finance council meetings when the priests pull out the financial sheets and go through expenditures down to the penny, or about funds specifically set aside for charitable purposes in which the priests serve as nothing more than facilitators of charitable activity? And yet, even when informed of this, he continued to maintain that putting $5 in the poor box at the Catholic church was the same as giving a child molester $5 to buy lube?
Yeah, that asshole has no history of anti-Catholic vitriol at all, so he definitely deserves the benefit of the doubt when it comes to saying things that Catholics find offensive.
Merry Christmas
@Keith G:
If every single Catholic did this, it might be acceptable to attack the religious beliefs of every single Catholic. Since the overwhelming majority of Catholics don’t fall into this category (a majority support gay marriage, for example, and the numbers on abortion are somewhere in the realm of parity), it sounds bigoted and smug. Maybe if this blog had a religious poster who counteracted the anti-religious sentiments of the other bloggers, that would help; but since every Balloon Juice blogger who talks about the subject seems to loathe Christianity, the effect is that a Christian liberal of nearly any denomination reading this blog comes away feeling like they’re shit upon simply for having beliefs they don’t even impose on others. Given that, based on demographic numbers alone, the majority of Democrats and probably half of all American liberals are Christians, attacking the basic moral underpinnings of Christians’ personal beliefs seems spiteful at best, bigoted at worst.
And yes, Christians in society at large have lots of power, and many of them- particularly the vocal and annoying right-wing groups- are horrible assholes. Why that gives atheists the moral right to be assholes in the tiny spheres in which they enjoy comparable power eludes me completely, unless atheists are simply trying to convey the idea that if they were the majority, they’d be bigoted, persecuting motherfuckers.
aimai
Wait, what? A lot of Catholics are critical of the institution so if the remaining catholics feel they are getting crap from outsiders its the fault of the outsiders? I’m really confused here. If even catholics themselves can’t stand their institution why am I obligated to defend it? Maybe I’m just taking one side in a civil war?
aimai
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@J. Michael Neal: No, I’m aware of current Catholic dogma on the subject. It hardly states that atheists can get into heaven. It states that those who are ignorant of Christ but still seek out God and strive to do good may be saved. However, this offer does not extend to those who explicitly reject Christ, as most atheists do. This is from section 847 of the Catholic catechism, by the way.
As with most subjects, you confuse knowledge of trivia and minutia for understanding, and are willing to twist the truth if that’s what it takes to appear to be more intelligent than you actually are.
To say that atheists, as we modern English speaking westerners understand the term, can be allowed into heaven by Catholic doctrine is a lie. It’s just not true. The catechism says it’s not true and the Bible says it’s not true.
Come on, man. This is sad.
Brachiator
@Lojasmo:
I am a furious agnostic. I tend not to believe in a deity, but more critically, I don’t find the deity question to be very interesting or meaningful.
That said, I wonder exactly how you think being an atheist gives you a privileged platform to lecture Catholics or any other believer about their religion?
Hah! Well said.
redshirt
That we have to pretend Christianity has any serious matter at all – as if “people of faith” are some sort of persecuted minority – is laughable, and sad. The root of current Repuglican Insanity: Religion, wherein we are forced to pretend a book of myths no more valid than any other book of myths (of which there are many – Egyptian religion flourished for some 4000 years) is somehow worthy of discussion is a joke. It’s a madhouse where the sane are locked up and the crazy people run the show.
Nash
@J. Michael Neal:
I might be missing something here, but . . . if an atheist is “saved,” doesn’t that mean they’re not an atheist anymore?
Svensker
@Trentrunner:
Without the spelling errors, one hopes.
wasabi gasp
A shout out to Noah for the little lamb.
Brachiator
@redshirt:
Mistermix insulted or annoyed other religious Balloon Juicers, most of whom are not Republicans, or do not agree with the more repellent GOP positions.
What, exactly, is the point in that?
aimai
@Brachiator:
He’s not lecturing them about their religion but their political position in a plural society with no legislated oppression of their religion. You are just completely off point here.
Also, to your other point that MIstermix insulted “other people of faith” or annoyed them–uh? So what. My favorite evangelical writer, Slactivist, has a ton to say about the prevalence of the cult of the annoyed and offended. Non of it good. If people get their panties in a twist because someone, somewhere, doesn’t like or respect their cult, their speech, their ideas…well…they can just take it up with their all powerful g-d or try to legislate to make sure no one can ever criticize them again. Surely weeping in their blog posts is the least effective means of suppressing criticism.
aimai
redshirt
@Brachiator: The point is to attack the entrenched system of power, which uses Christianity as both cudgel and lure for the misguided and troubled.
And I only mentioned Repuglicans because the same operational behavior is present in current Repuglican belief: Blind faith, deference to authority, adherence to dogma. We’ve all seen how the Repuglican spin machine can turn on a dime based on the political winds; so too the religious mindset, which can spin any dissonance into reason – in their minds. For example, that someone could be a Christian yet subscribe to the theory of Evolution. It makes no sense!
That otherwise intelligent and compassionate people still believe sincerely in Christianity – or any religion that worships pretend Gods – saddens me, and often infuriates me, since in America at least the default position is Christian – witness the requirement to swear an oath on the Bible. Ludicrous! It’s fear, I suspect, and nothing more. And fear, too, saddens me, for it is THE cudgel of the powerful.
Mnemosyne
Only if you assume all Christians across all sects believe that the Bible is a literal recounting of historical events. But, as I was saying in the other thread, most people’s view of Christianity is entirely Protestant-focused and they have trouble understanding that, say, Baptists, Lutherans and Catholics have very different ways of reading the Bible. If you tell a Catholic that they’re an idiot for thinking that the world is only 6,000 years old, they’re going to wonder what kind of idiot you are to not know that evolution has been official Catholic doctrine for 100 years.
redshirt
@Mnemosyne: No matter how you boil it down, if you believe in Jesus, you by force believe in talking snakes representing the Devil corrupting all of mankind throughout all of time for taking a bite of an apple.
Christ died to redeem us of the sins of Adam and Eve, right? In for a penny, in for a pound – it’s all myth, and to treat it as anything but does a disservice to honest thinking. And if you want to say then that it’s the life lessons offered by Christianity that make you believe, than I can point up hundreds of alternatives that don’t condemn a majority of the population to a metaphoric Hell of torture and sadism. Believe in New Age crystal touchy feely shit then – it’s all the same impulse.
suzanne
@redshirt:
No, actually, you don’t.
The vast majority of liberal Cristians would be thrilled to tell you all about what they believe (and what they don’t), if you asked in a spirit of genuine inquiry.
Our minds do comprehend the concept of “metaphor”. Shocking, I know.
redshirt
@suzanne: Fair enough. Tell me how the divinity of Christ can be decoupled from the talking snake and the very bad apple.
Brachiator
@aimai:
The point is that his lecture is not particularly informed, nor is his attempt to assert authority because of his atheism convincing or meaningful.
Some of the people who objected are the most compassionate and astute Balloon Juice posters, and generally progressive minded folks. If Mistermix wants to continue to alienate these folks with lame gratuitous bullshit, it’s his call, but I doubt that it will end well. Does your favorite evangelical writer Slactivist have anything to say about the pragmatic value of courtesy and common sense?
While I understand your zeal, it is misguided. Although the GOP has attempted to hijack religion, clearly not all religious people, especially here, are Republicans. I get annoyed when religious people use every freaking opportunity to try to sell me the baby Jeebus. I imagine that religious people get equally annoyed when atheists use the wrong occasion to try to attack them for their beliefs, even if they think it is for their own good. Not everybody is looking to be saved.
suzanne
@redshirt: Snake and apple and blah blah is merely a metaphor for human frailty and selfishness. Through following Jesus’ message and example of selflessness and love and sacrifice for others, we can work to overcome our frailty.
redshirt
@suzanne: Then Jesus too, is a metaphor, right?
Yutsano
@redshirt: As the Son of God and the Holy Ghost and all that yes. As an actual human no. There are extant writings outside of the Bible that testify to his existence. Whether he said what has been written down
(and the Gospels are selectively edited and hugely incomplete) is for the theologists to figure out. I’m not a Christian.
Ruckus
@burnspbesq:
She did say sentient being.
Do you think one can be a sentient being without believing in any religion? Or can they only be a sentient being if they only believe in your specific religion?
Because I’m not sure that someone who fervently believes in religion(especially any one “true” religion) is actually sentient.
suzanne
@redshirt: Well, there’s plenty of archaeological evidence that suggests that a guy named Jesus who was A Big Deal did exist back then, though of course that’s not proof of divinity. Some liberal Christians I know absolutely believe in the Resurrection story as it’s written, I personally am pretty agnostic on the matter, but I believe that Jesus’ life is a divine example that I should follow.
magurakurin
I didn’t get the sense that people thought your post was offensive as much as they(we) thought it was just stupid. A baseless mind fart that you then tried to weakly defend with a single follow up post.
But, you know, whatever makes you feel good about yourself. If want to think you’re some sort of iconoclast or something…have at her, boss.
Merry Christmas
@Nash:
They wouldn’t be saved until they were dead, according to the theology.
Merry Christmas
@redshirt:
If you read “Verbum Dei,” it provides the Catholic perspective on Biblical interpretation. The gist of it is that many of the stories may be flawed or allegorical or inaccurate because they were written by fallible men, but that they’re included in the Bible anyway because God felt that they contained metaphorical or spiritual significance for the practicing Christian. That’s not to say that there’s no minimum threshold of the Bible that a Catholic would have to accept as true in order to be Catholic; but I remember talking to a priest once who assured me that you could think pretty much everything that happened in the book of Genesis was an allegory and still consider yourself a good Catholic. (I.e., there was no such person as Abraham, he was just a metaphor for the Hebrew nation; Noah’s Ark was bullshit; the Creation Story is not a purely historical recitation of events; etc.)
J. Michael Neal
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: What Section 847 says is that “those who, without fault, have not yet arrived at an express recognition of God” will not necessarily be condemned. The key element is what “through no fault of their own” means. It might mean that only those who lived in a culture that was unfamiliar with Christianity can be saved.
This is not the generally accepted position, however. More often, and more officially, it is meant that those who honestly attempt to know God falls under this clause. Of course, that pushes the question back a step. It very clearly is not limited to Christians of different doctrines. There is some argument as to whether or not it applies only to those who are actively religious, regardless of sect, or can apply to those who reject religion, but honestly attempt to live their lives according to principles that are considered ethical by Catholic doctrine.
What most theologians came to recognize is that the dividing line between someone who is a religious believer and one who is not is so fuzzy as to be non-existent. Buddhists, for instance, tend to fall into this category. The general reaction has been to fall back on the Catholic doctrine that it is impossible to know whether or not any particular individual is saved or not.
Every Catholic that I have known, including a number of priests, has believed that God can and does apply a special baptism to those who don’t believe in Christ but that should receive salvation. This covers the idea that all salvation is done through Christ, even if the saved didn’t understand that.
Now, I’m a Universalist, as the idea of anyone ending up in Hell for eternity strikes me as horribly unjust. However, one needs to recognize the gradation of Christian belief as to the qualifications for salvation rather than just throwing them all in together.
Ronzoni Rigatoni
@Emma: hahahaha That’s funny. Reminds me of a cartoon from many years ago where the 3 wise men are standing on a hill overlooking the stable. One of them, who obviously went down to view the manger alone, returns with a look of dismay on his face, “It’s a girl.” Ave Maria, gratia plena… Sissel and Placido (the unedited version).