…this is how a class (and smart) act behaves:
Ryan Clark sat down in Mike Tomlin’s office and did something a little out of character for the normally verbose Pittsburgh Steelerssafety. He listened.
And when Tomlin told Clark he couldn’t play in Sunday’s wild card game at Denver because of a sickle-cell trait that becomes aggravated when playing at higher elevations, Clark just shrugged his shoulders and nodded.
“I said `OK coach,”‘ Clark said Wednesday. “It wasn’t any fight … does he seem like a man who changes his mind anyway? I knew there wasn’t going to be any changing in that.”
And for that, Clark is grateful. If given the choice, Clark would give it a shot even when faced with potentially dire consequences.
“Y’all have seen me play, I run into people all the time, so clearly I’m not that bright,” Clark told reporters with a laugh.
…
Tomlin told Clark that if Tomlin’s son Dino was in the same situation, he wouldn’t let him play, the kind of blunt assessment that Clark has grown to appreciate during Tomlin’s five years on the job. (via Sports Illustrated)
I’ve been watching football for a long time now. I enjoy doing so, though I find myself taking less and less pleasure in it over time, the more I learn about the way the game — played as directed — eats up and spits out young men.
(Alas, for the viewer, consider the alternatives):
Nothing in this story changes that essential dynamic, of course. But at least Tomlin — and the Steelers organization — get one key fact right. The game (even a playoff game, forsooth!) is not life.
Ordinarily, in a Denver v. Pittsburgh matchup, I’d be struggling to decide who to hate more. (Born in Raider country, spent more than half my life in the land of the Pats.) Not this weekend.
Though I struggle to type it:
Go Stillers!
Image: Winslow Homer, The Croquet Game, 1864
C.S.
On the other hand, Tomlin puts James Harrison on the field, and complains every time he gets fined for putting other peoples’ future in danger, so I guess it all comes out in the wash.
Tom Levenson
@C.S.: This is why I love our commentariat. (Not snark.)
salvage
I’m a new football fan myself and I wince with every injury and feel a touch of guilt for being entertained by what lead up to the bone snapping.
Than I think as they’re carting the guy off the field that even in a hospital bed he’s making more money than I will for my whole life and I think there is at least a balance.
geg6
Good on ya, Tom.
FTR, I’d cheer for the hated Pats over any team with Tebow on it.
And yes, both Clark and the Steelers organization (a compete reflection of the Rooneys) are class acts.
BGinCHI
It’s like Tom got dared to post a football thread.
Did it get to double or triple-dog, or did you go easy?
shoutingattherain
Do I root for Satan or God? Tough choice…
CT Voter
One small step. If concern for long term safety of players spreads any further, though, football will be radically different than its current version.
And I am increasingly looking forward to that different version, although I love the current one. The more we learn about the insidious damage done by playing the game, the less and less I can really enjoy it.
Mark S.
Do the Steelers still have Big Ben? Then
Go Tebows!
Of course, the Steelers are going to win by 40. It’s going to be ugly.
JPL
Tom, Nice story. There are few good owners though..Rooney being one, Green Bay another and Bob Kraft. Say what you will about the Pats..you haters out there..he was instrumental in ending the strike. One thing the players were fighting for was health care. There job demands it.
gentlewind
Good story. I respect Tomlin and the Rooney’s and love your blog. But just need to point out that your team’s most important player should be in jail……for rape. Hard to see how you keep rooting for those “Stillers” with a QB like Rothlesberger. Given your high moral character as evidenced by your blog posts, I just don’t get it.
tulip
@gentlewind:
I guess you missed this part of the post:
Ordinarily, in a Denver v. Pittsburgh matchup, I’d be struggling to decide who to hate more. (Born in Raider country, spent more than half my life in the land of the Pats.) Not this weekend.
joes527
@geg6:
Not a football fan at all … but even from outside looking in, all this Tebow love/hate seems like unresolved personal issues.
He is a young quarterback who over time will turn out to be brilliant/above average/average/below average/awful. the fact that great swaths of this nation have chosen to love/hate him before he can get even 2 seasons under his belt says more about the lovers/haters than about the player.
OTOH, if your hatred is really just shifted hatred for the media and their obsession with him … I can get on board with hating the media any day of the week.
j low
@tulip: and this:
Though I struggle to type it:
Go Stillers!
KG
@salvage: there’s something very primal in it, goes back thousands of years… not unlike the Gladiators in the arena. At least these guys have given consent and are (for the most part) being generously compensated for it.
burnspbesq
About the only contact sport that doesn’t involve a significant risk of brain trauma is lacrosse. Look at Sidney Crosby in the NHL, or any number of players in rugby, Aussie Rules and Gaelic football.
I love sports. I played soccer, basketball, and lax as a kid, and play tennis as an adult. Spouse played field hockey in high school and college, and plays tennis. On balance, I’m just as happy the kid chose dance. He could blow up an ankle and lose his career, but that won’t make him a borderline vegetable.
wmd
Worried about your Steeler fan blog overlord?
I’m a Raider fan myself – fantasizing about John Madden buying the team now that Al is resting eternally. And I’m with you on Steelers over Broncos.
Tom Levenson
@wmd:
Nah. I enjoy the schandenfreude when the regular season Steelers win over the Pats is reversed on
appellateplay-off appeal.Heh.
earl in CA
i can’t wait for the post-game interviews. who will claim divine intervention caused the win or loss? if tebow losses, will he renounce christianity and become a gay atheist republican with a penchant for spreading santorum? if denver wins, will this mark the second coming of the baby jebus?
CT Voter
@tulip: Very politely done.
geg6
gentlewind @10:
Not that I think Roethlisberger is some sort of saint, but just as Baltimore fans have cheered for their team despite the presence of Ray Lewis, suspected but never convicted murderer, we Steeler fans will do the same for our team. Ben Roethlisberger is not the only player on the team and it is stupid to even think a fan will quit cheering for his or her team because one player may or may not have done something unsavory but not, under the law, criminal, which is how that whole thing ended. I’ll never buy a #7 shirt, but I love Clark, Polamalu, Ward, Keisel, and all the rest. Ifcthst makes the world’s greatest monster, so be it. And before you get huffy with me about it, yes, I’ve am a victim of sexual assault. I can separate that from my Steeler fandom. I don’t let that run my life since to do so is just another way that bastard affects my life. Sorry, but I don’t plan to let him win.
Raven
YAY, the calendars came and Raven and Bohdi look so good on the cover! Thanks!
Linda Featheringill
@geg6:
Good for you!
Living well is the best revenge.
Egg Berry
@burnspbesq:
Sumo wrestling?
JPL
@Raven: Ah..I am so jealous. Hopefully my calendar is here tomorrow.
Raven
@JPL: I ordered them the first day.
cathyx
That’s a nice story. But I assume that you do know that the Raiders are the enemy of the Steelers. Them, Cleveland, and Dallas. Not in that order though.
Raven
@cathyx: I was at a Raiders Steelers playoff game in 84 in LA. Some Steeler fan had a Pitt hat with a “fuck you” finger carving on the bill. I don’t think he was dead when they finally got to him but he was badly hurt. Dumb ass.
cathyx
@Raven: Were those John Madden days? I hated him with a passion. Raiders played real dirty too.
Tom Levenson
@Raven: Darwin award material, I’d say.
Raven
@cathyx: No, that was Flores, they won it all the year.
tulip
Pretty sure, 1984 was Flores. Madden retired in the late 70’s I think. Couldn’t handle flying anymore.
My dad always said it was because when Madden was at SLO the whole football team was killed in a plane crash.
Raven
@cathyx: And here was Illini great Jack Squirek on the cover of SI after they beat the skins.
Leadpipe
The Steelers have more superbowl wins than any other team. Their coaches have always been first class and the ownership provides them with good players and the job security to be successful. They have kept the same uniforms, not gouging their fans for new gear every other year. A very classy organization. However, when they kept the fat rapist at quarterback they lost me.
Raven
Nice article on the fleeting nature of fame.
Squirek believed the Super Bowl was merely the beginning of further glory. It wasn’t. The football career he had long dreamed of came and went like an afternoon sun-shower — four full seasons with the Raiders, followed by a cup of lukewarm coffee with the Dolphins in 1986. As is the case with most of his ilk, injuries did Squirek in. He fractured his jaw in a preseason game not long after the Super Bowl and never fully recovered. “I lost a lot of weight and some of my edge,” he says. “I hated to admit it, but I did.”
tulip
Correction to me at 31
Only a part of the team was killed in the plane crash and Madden attributes his flying issues to claustrophobia.
Should have used teh google over a story from dad.
MikeJ
@Leadpipe:
And had some given to them too. Ask any Seahawks fan.
Raven
@MikeJ: That comment you made last night about Va Tech was totally fucking stupid. What the fuck is wrong with you?
Persia
@Mark S.: I’m hoping for a horrible injury for Big Ben and an unexpected Steelers triumph through adversity. Everyone wins, except for the people I don’t like.
Villago Delenda Est
@MikeJ:
/raises hand
trollhattan
And with this post, Tunch cancels any prior jihad ruling against mister Levenson. (We can deal with the [cough] Raiders thing another time.)
Moar croquet! Which reminds me, I thought I spied a listing for “League Darts” on one of the many Fox international sports channels on cable, but it might have been a reaction to the Priorat. Darts?!?
MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson
Must not mention SEVEN TURNOVER Day. Must not mention 35-7.
*cough* Ravens *cough*
Under the Aurora Freeway
Ryan Clark is a headhunter. Not sure he qualifies as classy. That said, Mike Tomlin appears to be reasonably classy, as far as football types go. And the Rooneys are probably one of three ownership groups that I do not despise.
Raven
RIP Gene Bartow
cathyx
@MikeJ: Cough, sore loser, cough.
El Tiburon
I am not so sure. What exactly is life?
For me, now, life begins and ends with seeing my one-year old son smile and taking his first steps and sleeping and laughing.
For others it may be climbing Mount Everest or running a marathon or being a good person or just surviving.
For some it may be the chance to strap up for a playoff football game. Donuts to dollars, you ask just about any professional football player when they are old and crippled and mentally broken down if they would do it all over again and they’d all say fuck yes.
Living has to be more than just coasting to old age, doesn’t it?
JPL
@joes527: I actually agree with you. The media has hyped him and when I saw the local political cartoonist use his forum I was shocked..until I saw it. AJC
Svensker
@BGinCHI:
We’re not talking about Romney and the GOP Klown Kar here, that’s in the thread below.
Maude
@Svensker:
So I can’t do my little joke?
What does Mitt’s dog say? Roof.
Awful, but I like it.
redshirt
Surprisingly the AFC is the far weaker division this year. The Pats are paper tigers methinks – any team that puts pressure on Brady will beat them. No pressure? Pats win, in a shootout.
As for the injuries, it’s not just brain trauma. I saw this very sad special many years ago about football players from the 50’s and 60’s, and they were almost all, across the board, near cripples. Knees gone, joints shot, their whole bodies wrecks. Alas, they made no money either, and were wasting away in live-in care facilities.
Unless football becomes flag football, I don’t see how you can avoid a whole class of fairly serious body injuries.
MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson
@El Tiburon:
Life is watching the Patriots weep as they go one and out again.
At least, I seem to remember Genghis Khan saying that as he and I and Ron Paul passed the weed and Ameros around the camp fire.
Old Dan and Little Ann
The Rooneys found a keeper in Tomlin. I love his demeanor and listening to him talk. I hope he lasts as long as Chuck Noll and wins at least one more Super Bowl. Go Steelers!
lacp
I don’t give a shit about Tebow’s religion, but I do think someone who spent one of his summer vacations in college chopping little boys’ wee-wees may have some issues.
JPL
@Maude: I like it..
Mr Stagger Lee
Reminds me of a story when Hank Aaron brought his son, a budding minor league player into his office one day. Hammerin Hank asked his son, about the quality of his son’s college degree and and asked him if it was worth it. When his son said yes, he gave his son the waiver papers, telling his future as a college grad was more realistic than ball playing abilities.
Raven
@Mr Stagger Lee: Bill Russell was asked if winning and NBA Championship was the greatest moment in his life he said “No, the greatest moment in my life was when my daughter graduated from Harvard.”
Tom Levenson
@MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson: I believe you are seeking this youtube.
And, though I have to admit the 31st ranked defense in the league does give one pause, I have better hopes for this year than the last few…which brings to mind this clip.
Jason
@burnspbesq:
Sure, but American football has the highest risk of brain injury of those sports mentioned. Concussion is a danger in all those sports, but football linebackers suffer repeated low-level brain trauma events below the threshold of concussion, over and over again. We are only just now understanding the cumulative damage of these impacts, called Mild Traumatic Brain Injury events in the medical literature, cause. It doesn’t take much to cause them: even soccer players suffer them when they head the ball. The helmets in American football actually make it worse, by encouraging more violent impacts.
Brain Injury in the NFL is not a matter of will a player get it, but how bad a case will they get. Virtually all former NFL players tested show some cognitive impairment compared to baseline norms. There may be a time where we declare American football, hockey and Rugby football too high a risk. I imagine Gaelic football and Australian football might survive, because of their much lower risk.
burnspbesq
@Raven:
Bartow made the best of an impossible situation. By all accounts a good coach and a good man.
We Dookies hope that whoever eventually succeeds K does so with as much grace as Bartow succeeded Coach Wooden.
redshirt
@Jason: Hmm. That reminds me of one theory to reduce head injuries – you reduce padding, thereby causing the players to hit less hard. Not sure if it would work.
I’ve also been thinking they could design some type of harness/suit that could provide support to the neck. Sort of a one piece plastic mold that connects to the shoulder pads and the helmet.
Neck injuries are of course another serious injury concern.
Raven
@burnspbesq: I was in the hospital with a broken back when the word came that Wooden retired and for some reason I flashed immediately that he was going to leave the Illini for Westwood.
MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson
@Tom Levenson:
Au contraire, Monsieur le comte de Levenson, I was recalling this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYHFMuvCsr0
lacp
@redshirt: I first heard that theory from a buddy of mine who played both football and rugby in college. He claimed that there were fewer injuries in rugby because the football padding fooled you into thinking you were a lot safer than was actually the case. Of course that was about 40 years ago, and I’m sure equipment has changed a lot since then.
Anne Laurie
@joes527:
Mr. Charles P. Pierce has a pretty fair explanation, IMO.
Tom Levenson
@MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson: I bow to your YouTube-fu.
Raven
@lacp: The players keep getting bigger and faster but the knee and the head can’t keep pace.
Bill in Section 147
@joes527: As a Raider fan I just hate him because he plays for them. But I feel that you have a good point…for many the dynamics for hating him reflect more on their unresolved issues. As an atheist his over-the-top act bothers me but I also am rubbed the wrong way by over-the-top atheists. The only zealotry I can abide is for ridiculous reasons…like football teams and such. And so as a Raider fan, “Go None of the Above!!!”
MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson
@Tom Levenson:
And just for the laughs….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiLc-SnsbZU&feature=related
MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson
@Tom Levenson:
Lord Manhammer takes no prisoners!
redshirt
@Bill in Section 147: Man, did the AFC West stink it up this year. Across the board.
Yutsano
Ahem.
BIG BEN NEVER BROKE THE PLANE.
That is all.
Cassidy
Mongol General: Wrong! Conan! What is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.
lacp
@Cassidy: I thought it was saving 15% on your car insurance with Geico.
zzyzx
Maybe one day I’ll get over XL, but when you live in a city that’s not exactly filled with championships, losing one that way sticks with you. I still want to know how Hasselbeck was flagged for tackling someone.
Joel
@MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson: Submitted without further comment.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@tulip: Wow, didn’t know that about Madden and SLO. That would be enough to keep me on the ground, too.
ETA: Saw your correction. I’m a little guy and I get a bit claustrophobic in the middle seat. Must drive Madden crazy.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:
Definitely must not mention 35-7.
/waves purple flag/
MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson
@Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason:
A waven’ Raven maven?
No, must not mention 35-7. Also too, must not mention 7 turnovers.
nancydarling
@Egg Berry: Water polo? It’s a tough sport. When Hungary played the Russians in the ’56 Olympics, there was blood in the water. Something to do with Russian tanks rolling into Budapest. Even without that going on, it is very tough. No significant head injuries that I am aware of though.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@Raven: Jim Palmer said a similar thing after winning the World Series. His answer was something like, “No, the greatest day of my life was when my parents adopted me.”
Ron
@gentlewind: I’m not trying to defend Ben, but “should be in jail for rape” is simply false as they couldn’t produce enough evidence to indict, let alone convict.
stannate
@Cassidy: I can’t look at this comment without thinking of Warren Ellis. He often asks the Conan question, then links to images of disturbing body modifications or flesh-eating diseases or the like. I won’t recommend that you search online for it (oh, for example, by searching “conan best life warren ellis”), but if you do, buyer beware and all that.
Grumpy Code Monkey
@redshirt:
When they talk about leaving it all on the field, they aren’t kidding. I remember watching Earl Campbell mow down tackles like they were dandelions (Bob Costas described it as “pardon me, but I’m on a mission here…”); seeing him now makes me want to cry at the waste of it. At least Earl’s a moderately successful businessman.
I dread seeing what will become of Troy Aikman.
kwAwk
I can image this is a big part of the reason the Steeler’s have been so successful over the years. Management doesn’t turn over every time the going gets rough. Trust gets built up over time when people can predict the behavior of those above them.
When problems arise an honest discussion of the problem can be had and neither side has to walk away feeling slighted.
I was confused when James Harrison had been having all the problems with dirty hits that the Steeler management had publicly stood behind him but can now imagine that while they stood behind him publicly they very well were probably talking to him behind the scenes to help him work through problems.
Bill in Section 147
@redshirt: Agree. Frustrating for me that we at times looked like we were just about to turn a corner then someone else would get injured. KC started the season with a key injury and never seemed to get better till they played us. And the Broncos… I would say they were horrible but they won the division so…
Best thing about us losing that last game we save Norv Turner’s job.
redshirt
@Bill in Section 147: Ha. Now that’s some 11th Dimensional chess right there – as a strategic move, your team losing to a hated rival most likely ensured said hated rival (who should be an incredible team) will remain mediocre and tragic, thereby giving your team a better chance of winning the division next year.
Of course, this year is always better.
In a parallel vein, you should root on Tebow for his inconsistent, lucky success. The longer Denver builds a team around him, the longer they will stink when inevitably Tebow is cut.
T’would be so excellent for Denver to beat the Steelers, and then get killed in New England. We need a playoff win in Boston man, we’re stahving up heah!
Omnes Omnibus
@Leadpipe: Let me just say this: 13 NFL championships.
Chief
Speaking of spitting out. A long, long time ago, Fall of 1958, I was a 16 year old high school senior on a rather poor HS football team at Hanover HS, Hanover, MA. The South Shore league had an undefeated champion that year in Cohasset HS.
Hanover was the only school to be leading Cohasset at halftime, 18 – 12. Hanover lost 28 – 18. But on that tesm was a giant of a player named Walt Sweeney. Walt went on to be an All-American at Syracuse and play for quite a few for the San Diego Chargers in the NFL as a lineman.
Here is wikipedia link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Sweeney
I saw him on TV 15 – 18 years ago when there was a labor dispute between the NFL and the players union. He looked like a skinny, worn out 90 year old then. He was asking for/pleading for better health care for retired players.
geg6
kwAwk @83:
I have no insider information but what you guess about the situation with Harrison is undoubtedly correct because that is how the Steeler organization works. They will work tirelessly for and with a player if they believe in that player as a person and if that player works to address the issue. They’ve done it many times, going back to keeping Rocky Bleier on the books for years as he recovered from his Vietnam injuries (which was not even a certain thing at all) to Big Ben’s scrapes with helmetless motorcycle riding and stupid drunken evenings in college bars and many others in between. There’s reasons they didn’t hang on to good players who can’t or won’t control their behaviors (see Santonio Holmes and Plaxico Burris). I honestly don’t believe there is another NFL team that does or has done the kinds of things for their players that the Rooneys and their organization has. On a personal note, I know the Ambassador’s wife pretty well (she was, until 3 years ago, a lecturer in the same department at Robert Morris Univ. with my sister and they are friends). She’s a fantastic person and very down to earth, as was Mr. Rooney the one time I met him. You’d never know that he is the power player he is. Can’t say enough nice things about them.
suzanne
@Ron:
It’s funny how on this blog, quite a few people get their panties in a wad and say something to the effect of “But he’s innocent until proven guilty!” if you say something like “Ben Rapistburger is a rapist and should be in jail,” but have zero problem with something like “Dick Cheney is a war criminal and should be sent to the Hague”.
And when I say “it’s funny”, what I mean is “it pisses me off”.
The tribalism of fandom clouds what should be a pretty morally cut-and-dried choice to not provide financial support to a dude who most likely abused his wealth to rape someone.
MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson
@suzanne:
Thing is, you can’t simply decide that the guy is guilty and expect other people to cut him off financially. I don’t much care for Frothymixburger myself, but he hasn’t been found guilty and until he is, innocence remains the presumption. I don’t have a problem with the idea of sending Cheney to the Hague to stand trial – but that isn’t the same thing as declaring him guilty.
suzanne
@MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:
Innocence is the presumption IN A COURT OF LAW, not in my blog comments. And from what is publicly known, the very best you can say is that he treats women like shit. That isn’t me deciding anything.
And so, on the basis of that, I have no problem holding the opinion that people who presume to be concerned with systemic marginalization of women and righting unfairness in the world should make an informed decision to boycott Ben Rapistburger.
MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson
@suzanne:
As I said, I don’t care for the guy myself – but you were the one talking about putting him in jail. That does involve a court of law, last time I checked.
burnspbesq
@suzanne:
You’re entitled to your opinion, no matter how misguided it is.
suzanne
@MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson: My point being that many commenters here sympathetic to Big Ben want to hold discussion about him to a much lower standard than about figures we dislike, and that angers me. Call Bush a war criminal, you’ll get plenty of agreement. Call Ben a rapist, and you’ll hear plenty of bleating about how “We don’t know what happened!” and even the occasional victim-blaming. Never mind that we have no reason to doubt the account of his victim. It’s hypocritical and tribal, and anyone who fancies themselves enlightened should cut it the fuck out, IMO.
MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson
@suzanne:
First of all, I think rape is one of the most serious and appalling crimes which someone can commit. I want to be absolutely clear about that. I don’t believe that there is any justification for it, I don’t believe that there are any mitigating circumstances. However, precisely because I take it so seriously, and because I recognize just what a terrible thing it is to do to someone, I don’t think it is remotely helpful to condemn someone as a rapist unless they are convicted of rape, or the circumstances are unambiguous, if the justice system fails us. I don’t much like what I see of Ben Roethlisberger – but, he has not been indicted on charges of rape, much less convicted. I think it is fair to say that he has behaved poorly and with exceptionally bad judgment towards two women – but that doesn’t in itself automatically make him a rapist. It isn’t hypocritical or tribal to point out that Roethlisberger hasn’t been indicted or found guilty. Those are facts in the public domain. I am not blaming the victim – but I am also not willing to be guilt-tripped into saying that Roethlisberger is a rapist – as opposed to an elephantine jerk – simply because other people have made a different judgment on this matter. We don’t know what happened between Roethlisberger and these women, and will probably never know. Obviously, you will continue to believe your version of events. Fair enough – but it doesn’t mean you can demand agreement from others, and nor does it give you the right to condemn them as hypocrites simply because they disagree with you. I stick with innocent until proven guilty because I don’t know of a fairer standard. That’s all I can say to you on this topic.
suzanne
@MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson: As a feminist, I find that to be hugely problematic. Rape is incredibly difficult to prosecute for many reasons, and many victims don’t want to go through the fresh hell that awaits them if they report it to the police. Add to that that evidence is invasive to collect, not to mention that most cases come down to “he said, she said”, and, due to the social poison that is sexism, women are more often than not disbelieved. In short, the justice system fails women so badly and so often that the majority of rapes are never reported at all.
Note: my best friend was raped by a serial rapist, who was never caught. By your logic, no crime was committed.
Also, I believe OJ did it, that Casey Anthony did it, and I say so.
Bubblegum Tate
@Mark S.:
I wish I had this kind of optimism, but with the Steelers missing their starting RB and safety and having a crippled QB, I’m gritting my teeth a bit here. But still, they better not lose to the goddamn Broncos.
Yutsano
@suzanne:
In Alaska they charge you for rape kits. One guess as to who signed that little piece of fuckery into law.
MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson
@suzanne:
If the best you can do is make ad hominem accusations and try to use rape victims to justify them, I think your feminism needs some serious rethinking. Exploiting the very real suffering of rape victims to score internet debating points is contemptible.
I’ve made clear to you just how seriously I take rape. You might also bear in mind that a false accusation of rape is pretty devastating for the man or woman accused of it.
Since you feel that bringing up celebrity cases is somehow connected to your argument, I suggest you revisit the Duke lacrosse case. Not every accusation of rape is honest, not every person accused of rape is guilty. Innocent until proven guilty is the basis of our legal system for a good reason.
suzanne
@MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:
What about his victim’s judgment on the matter? I mean, why is the fact that she said she didn’t consent not enough for you? (Once again, not enough to put him in jail, but enough so that you’ll take her seriously.) Because it’s pretty disrespectful to rape victims if you won’t even accept that they were in fact raped.
MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson
@suzanne:
If someone wasn’t raped, they aren’t a rape victim. You keep assuming that accusation equals guilt. It doesn’t. Innocent until proven guilty.
suzanne
@MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:
Being falsely accused of rape is nowhere near the horror of being raped, and it is sickening that you would say so.
I’ll invite you to look up the number of false reports compared to the number of unprosecuted and unreported rapes, and then you can mansplain to me what my feminism should look like some more.
suzanne
@MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:
So the justice system never fails? Never ever?
Um, have you left the house? Ever?
MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson
@suzanne:
If you have to draw false equivalancies and attribute arguments to me that I didn’t make, you’ve pretty clearly lost the plot altogether. As for the cheap shots about mansplaining, those are just rhetorical gestures designed to let you avoid the facts. I find it interesting that you make assumptions about my gender in a sexist and patronising way, but I don’t plan to take it too seriously. The internet throws up all sorts of rage merchants and one more or less isn’t going to stop me sleeping at night.
Not every accusation is honest. The fact that too many cases go unprosecuted is terrible – but it doesn’t make Ben Roethlisberger guilty, any more than your say so does. Nor does the fact of your gender make you any better acquainted with what happened between Roethlisberger and the two women in the case. If you don’t like the facts, don’t flame the people who are honest with you about them.
MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson
@suzanne:
If you had bothered to read what I said at #95, you would have noticed:
Perhaps this was not clear enough for you?
300baud
@suzanne:
I think the salient difference here is that there’s no real dispute about what Dick Cheney did, only how we should handle it. Also, I think sending somebody to the Hague is sending them for trial.
Personally, I suspect Roethlisberger of being a rapist, but I’m sure Cheney’s a war criminal.
suzanne
@MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson:
It’s not my say-so, it’s his victim’s say-so. In the absence of verifiable reason to doubt a woman, I believe her when she says she was raped. Especially since she has much to lose by coming forward (not just people calling her a liar on the Internet). And especially when, as in this case, we have other witnesses.
I really don’t know why this is difficult for you. Caylee Anthony and Nicole Brown Simpson are not less murdered merely because a court never convicted their killers. The justice system fails women every second of every day, and while I concur that doesn’t mean we should send people to jail, it certainly means that I can think and speak ill of them.
Come on, insult me more for calling out your mansplaining. Because your comments reek of unexamined privilege to me. Talk about losing the fucking plot.
suzanne
@MildlyAmusedRainbowPerson: As for your accusation that I’m sexist, you are aware that a woman cannot be sexist to a man, as women are the marginalized class and men are the dominant class, correct? (See “Why ‘Reverse Racism’ Is Total Bullshit” for further reading.) Sexism is prejudice plus power, and women don’t have power over men.
I might have been presumptuous, but I wasn’t sexist, and I also don’t think I was wrong. :)
I’m outta here.