As I noted when I took this gig, all the front pagers are smarter than me. If you want cogent, cutting analysis, go to them.
I will note that I long for the days of my youth, when our press was worth a damn. The days before Saint Ronaldus Magnus destroyed the fairness doctrine. I long for something like the law which Canada has. The law that forbids newscasters from lying has effectively prevented Fox News, or any reasonable facsimile thereof, from ever gaining a foothold in Canada. Is anyone really surprised the the Conservative Stephen Harper recently tried to get this law repealed? Have an open thread, on me.
Reader Interactions
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gnomedad
Perhaps, but not in the same way. That’s the whole idea.
jl
Ah but you did add something. So your post is not true.
Ha.
See how difficult this ‘objective reality’ thing is? I’d think things through again before going down the ‘reality’ road, if you want to be a responsible journalist, even if a bloggity one.
Benjamin Franklin
The Fairness Doctrine; ‘Cuz corporations are people. Flesh and blood People can go fish…
Wiki
Villago Delenda Est
The shitty grade Z movie star was the figurehead for the institution of a lot of policies that are directly responsible for the decline of the United States as the beacon for the world.
Now the only examples we set, see our valiant Marines who can’t find a fucking urinal, are bad examples.
chuckles
Please read the update on the linked blog post, dated yesterday. That story has essentially been retracted. Certainly the part about that law preventing Fox News/News Corp, per se, from gaining a foothold.
Mark B
Well, aren’t you a front pager? Therefore, you are in the set of front pagers, but you have excluded yourself from that set by saying that all of the front pagers are smarter than you. The Venn diagram of this … does not compute. Either it’s a logical paradox, or it’s a false statement.
Catsy
I would be ecstatic to see a law like this enacted in the US in a way that would pass constitutional muster.
I just don’t see it happening. Which is a shame, because to me it seems like a pretty obvious case of public good outweighing 1A rights. You don’t have the right to commit libel, slander or perjury, after all, or (to use the time-worn but perfect example) shout “fire” in a crowded theater. You should not be able to broadcast blatant, demonstrable lies and call it “news”, which causes harm to our country at least as serious as any of the above.
Baud
This is why I only trust Balloon Juice for my news.
General Stuck
For some reason, this sounds normal
burnspbesq
@Catsy:
No you wouldn’t, because the people whose opinions you like would be just as exposed to prosecution as the people whose opinions you don’t like. Do the words “chilling effect” ring any bells?
Canada’s record on civil liberties, in particular freedom of speech, is piss-poor.
But it’s all academic, anyway. “Congress shall make no law,” remember?
Schlemizel
@Catsy:
The real problem is that if we had a law like that in the US some coven of asshats like politifact would be charged with determining ‘truth’ and ~POOF~ its not OK for newscasters to admit the GOP wants to kill Medicare.
Paddy
Open thread right? I need help from BJ dog peeps. I inherited my dog Boo from my next door redneck alcoholic ptsd suffering neighbor when he died. No one else would take her because he had trained her to be hypersensitive to strangers etc since he “dabbled” in drugs, taking and selling. She had always been great with us, Craig calling me her mom while he was alive. That’s the background.
She’s been with us almost 7 years, and at times, if she’s found some movement or yelling upsetting, has nipped at us. We just swat her nose and banish her to some lonely part of the house. Tonight there was something skittering in the walls (another long going story) and it got on my nerves so I started banging on the wall and yelling. (Hey, I’m old, this shit just gets to me sometimes)
She promptly jumped up and got a good old bite in my forearm, three distinct punctures. I lost it, started screaming and throwing things, yelled for a good 15 minutes while I cleaned the wound and bandaged it, She’s sufficiently cowed for the moment, but how do I stop this? I’ve noticed it’s getting worse as she ages, almost as if she’s mimicking my crankiness.
I don’t want this to escalate, and doing anything drastic is out of the questions.
burnspbesq
@Benjamin Franklin:
Nice to see that my favorite dealer in misinformation is set up on his usual street-corner.
Good evening, Mr. Benjamin. How y’all be?
Benjamin Franklin
@burnspbesq:
What’s your beef now, burnie?
Malovich
Not in the slightest. He’s already scaled back basic research at the NRC, made the long census form optional and is outsourcing more and more public services to extraordinarily expensive and opaque consulting companies.
When the truth and transparency work against you, it’s time to muddy the waters. It’s like watching the GOP try to run their racket up here. I hope we’re up to the task of ousting this bastard.
MikeJ
@Catsy:
Actually, you sort of do. The government can’t stop you from printing something libelous, but after you do you can be held responsible for your speech.
Schlemizel
Interesting tidbit:
I knew I couldn’t put asterisks before & after a word but I didn’t know if I put a word between tilde it would be made subscript. Makes me want to play with other bits.
dmsilev
@General Stuck: For me, the key element of the story was
I’m torn between recoiling in horror at the mental images that this evokes and admiration at capturing the quintessential American lifestyle.
Baud
@General Stuck: The really funny party of that story — the mannequin was Mitt Romney.
gnomedad
@Mark B:
Illogical … illogical … Norman … coordinate … error … errorrrrr
General Stuck
@Baud:
teehee. I didn’t follow the links.
Schlemizel
@Paddy:
sorry I don’t have any suggestions but I want to offer my sympathy. We acquired a cat that has her sweet moments but is a total bitch to anyone but the wife & me (we only get it when she is unhappy). When the oldest was home she loved him but since he started his own family she has no time for him & I have to lock her away when the grand kids are here as she bites (was declawed which probably has saved her life on more than one occasion).
If she decides she is upset she will bite me and the urge to wring her neck can be pretty strong. You are a sweetheart for taking the dog in and more so for not putting it down already. I hope someone can help you.
General Stuck
@dmsilev:
It’s how real Americans do it.
Kola Noscopy
Rosie, Tunch, and Lily too.
But at least you’ve achieved a teensy bit of self awareness: You are indeed an idiot.
burnspbesq
@Benjamin Franklin:
Your description of why the Fairness Doctrine was rescinded is, simply put, a lie. It didn’t have a single thing to do with whether or not corporations are people.
The Fairness Doctrine was always on thin ice Constitutionally, because it was a non-content-neutral restriction on speech, and those have always been disfavored. It survived for a while, because in a world of limited spectrum, it was arguably the least restrictive alternative. When the limited-spectrum problem went away, so did the justification for the Fairness Doctrine. And we’re well rid of it.
PPOG Penguin
Got Medieval has a post up on similarities between how the overlords of the 14th century tried to stem an economic shift towards the peasantry and how they’re doing it today:
Long, but entertaining: gotmedieval.com/2012/01/occupy-canterbury.html
Steeplejack
@Schlemizel:
Be careful, grasshopper. Or at least check back to make sure you didn’t break something. We’ve had people farkle entire threads with unclosed italics, strike-through, etc.
ETA: Obligatory FYWP.
Kola Noscopy
I’m guessing you went to Oklahoma State, yes?
The proper phrasing would have been: “I ain’t got hardly nothin’ to add…”
But you’re close, daggummit.
Dave Ruddell
I live in Toronto. Fox News is available on Rogers and Bell (the two TV providers). It’s not terribly popular, AFAIK, but it’s there.
Jamie
OK, I think I’ve got it. If they don’t have to call liars liars, then we don’t have to call these stenographers journalists
amk
@burnspbesq:
right, amurika’s record on that front is exemplary and envy of the world.
JPL
@Paddy: I’m so sorry but you don’t want a situation where you are in a fight with a dog. If you can afford it, many areas have trainers that will come to your house and give you some techniques. Miss Moxie is pretty small so I can pick her up and just stare her down but that doesn’t sound like something you can do.
Benjamin Franklin
@burnspbesq:
See how simple that is. No need for Ad Hominems to bolster your flagging
self-confidence; no breast-thumping defense mechanisms could be more descriptive than that simple, declarative sentence.
Arguing from your genuine pov is revealing, not just for your own redemptive self-awarness, but for the rest of us here. You have aligned yourself with Reagan/Bush and that’s what we would expect of anyone with conservative ideology. Return to that hedgehog-hole of confrontational lawyerspeak in the guise of progressive pantomime and enjoy the fruits of what, probably is a successful career of ambulance-chasing and purloining the fortunes of gullible widows who allow you to do their last will and testament.
cocktailhag
I was in journalism school in the early 80’s, and one of my (liberal) professors had some reasonable-sounding arguments for getting rid of the Fairness Doctrine. Her argument was that no journalism could be truly objective, as no journalist could be. She thought a million flowers would bloom if only journalists were unshackled from such bureaucratic hogwash; at the time I kind of saw her point.
Look how that turned out. “Real” journalists are now forced to give lies and truth equal billing, and committed liars (almost entirely on the well-funded right) have been set free. I understand the discomfort with what seems like censorship, but in the post-Fairness Doctrine world, I feel a bit mugged by reality.
amk
Jared Bernstein:
Lojasmo
@burnspbesq:
The people whose opinions I like don’t pass themselves off as “news”.
Opinions =\ news.
Stop being a contrarian dick.
Omnes Omnibus
@amk: Our record on freedom of speech is actually pretty good. Our speech protections are far broader than those of European countries, broader than Canada’s, etc.
Lojasmo
FYWP. Edit ated.
Opinions DO NOT EQUAL news.
FlipYrWhig
@Benjamin Franklin: I would just about guarantee that Glenn Greenwald holds the same view, i.e., that it is never a good idea for the government to be involved in monitoring political speech. Tagging any view on those matters (as with Citizens United) “conservative” is problematic IMHO. I tend to weigh fairness differently than civil libertarians and free speech absolutists do, but I’m not sure left-right is the best device for those acts of weighing.
cbear
@Paddy: It sounds as if your dog simply does not recognize you as the alpha dog in your little pack and is correcting your actions rather than the other way around.
Assuming your dog will obey basic commands such as sit and stay (even for short periods of time)–here are 3 simple things you can do:
1. make her sit before giving her her food and keep her in that position until you say “OK”.
2. make her sit before you let her out the door for a walk, proceed her out the door, and then give her the “OK” command before you let her follow you. If you have a backyard she uses, then make her sit before you let her out.
3. once a day, have her come sit beside your chair or couch and put her in the down position. If she doesn’t know the “down” or “lay down” command, then have her sit and hold a treat in the palm of your hand next to the floor until she has to lay down to get it.
Once you have her down you will need to hold her down by pressing on her shoulders and saying “down” in a firm voice. You will need to keep her in this position for 5-10 minutes until she relaxes (usually they go to sleep) although she will struggle against this for the first week or so. Once you have her in this position and she has relaxed and stayed down for the 5-10 minutes suggested—then release her with the “OK” command and give her lots of praise.
If you try these three simple steps for 3-4 weeks I think you will see a big difference in her behavior. If not, then she has issues best addressed by a professional.
Hope this helps.
amk
@Omnes Omnibus:
so broad that corporations are people, my friend, and citizens united (inc) rule
theworldamurika.Anne Laurie
@Paddy:
Her hearing, sight, even sense of smell are fading, which to a small predator is waaay more threatening than to us master-of-the-universe primates. And her personal history would maker her paranoid about upset under the best circumstances. My best advice would be, talk to your vet, make sure there isn’t something treatable that needs to be taken care of — painful joints, metabolic changes making her hypersensitive — and get recommendations for a good behaviorist, if that’s possible.
But first, keep an eye on those punctures — I required hand surgery under general anesthesia last May, subsequent to an accidental dog bite that seemed to be healing up just fine, until the wound puffed up red, white, and blue almost a week later (on a Saturday night, of course). And it wasn’t even our rescue Dog Who Bites People, it was the omega dog really truly accidentally grabbing my hand instead of the towel he intended to ‘kill’.
I am not certified in either animal behavior or medicine, but my email is at the top of the right-hand column, if you want…
Paddy
@cbear: Thank you so much, I really wanted something concrete to try other than just banishing her from my presence. She’s been quiet since, but keeps on sneaking around as if she wants to get back to her regular spot behind me in the chair when I blog. I’m just flustered, and very upset that she would actually bite me.
I will try what you said.
Soonergrunt
@Mark B: Or I wasn’t smart enough to say exactly what I was meaning.
dogwood
Since mocking Mitt is part of the mission here at BJ, here’s a fun link. Just make sure you click on the picture before reading the captions.
Paddy
@Schlemizel: Thank you. Yeah, we had a psycho cat many years ago who actually killed another cat. Very difficult, she attacked some ppl also, and we had no choice, she had to go down. Guess there are psychos in all species.
General Stuck
Good news for us pansy oatmeal eaters.
Omnes Omnibus
@amk: I did not say that our record is perfect.
Paddy
@Anne Laurie: Thank you so much, ya’ll are my go to blog when I’m not going to my blog.
dogwood
Shit, I screwed up the link. Google “mitt romney shoe shine” and go to Huff Po.
Benjamin Franklin
@FlipYrWhig:
The Fairness Doctrine had two basic elements: It required broadcasters to devote some of their airtime to discussing controversial matters of public interest, and to air contrasting views regarding those matters. Stations were given wide latitude as to how to provide contrasting views: It could be done through news segments, public affairs shows, or editorials. The doctrine did not require equal time for opposing views but required that contrasting viewpoints be presented.[2]
The main agenda for the doctrine was to ensure that viewers were exposed to a diversity of viewpoints. In 1969 the United States Supreme Court upheld the FCC’s general right to enforce the Fairness Doctrine where channels were limited. But the courts did not rule that the FCC was obliged to do so.[3]. The courts reasoned that the scarcity of the broadcast spectrum, which limited the opportunity for access to the airwaves, created a need for the Doctrine. However, the proliferation of cable television, multiple channels within cable, public-access channels, and the Internet have eroded this argument, since there are plenty of places for ordinary individuals to make public comments on controversial issues at low or no cost.
Here’s the divergence. The conglomerates (Media) have taken that imperative to another category. The broad license by FCC and Congress for greater concentrations of Media under ONE corporate umbrella has changed the climate for decisions made in the 80’s and 90’s.
I think your pov needs some updating.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Paddy: Please look for a trainer, who does behavioral work. Many will come to your home. Mainly it’s the people who need training. We anthropomorphize many canine behaviors and then react in ways that make things worse. A good behaviorist can help you sort through this. Run, do not walk, away from anyone who cites Cesar Milan of any of the alpha dog stuff. It will get you hurt, and possibly the dog as well.
As they age, dogs get arthritic and crankier too. Good luck.
Soonergrunt
@Kola Noscopy: But through study and hard work, I can be smarter.
You, however, will always be a racist shitstain with no redeeming virtues save your flammability.
Benjamin Franklin
sorry. forgot the link
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine
Soonergrunt
@General Stuck: I eat both bacon and oatmeal at breakfast, so I figure I’m covered.
Omnes Omnibus
@Soonergrunt: Why do you bother? If you must play with a troll, find one that can do something other than shit himself. Now go wash your hands.
amk
Whatevah happened trumpster’s indie run ? Did the klown announce it yet given the beatings on robney ?
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: Hello Mr. Pot, I see you’ve told Mr. Kettle!
Litlebritdifrnt
Totally not to do with anything but I loved Dylan Radigan’s quote on MJ this morning “corporations are not people, until I hear one fart” (paraphrasing).
Benjamin Franklin
@General Stuck:
Everything bad is good again. Reverse that equation. Someone is always trying to get published and sell a book. Moderation in all things
fitnessmagazine.com/weight-loss/expert-advice/diet-detective/bad-for-you-foods/?page=2
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): My troll can be interesting and is occasionally perceptive.
amk
@Litlebritdifrnt: what their pissing and shitting on people isn’t enough for ratigan?
Hill Dweller
@Litlebritdifrnt:
I like Bill Moyers a bit better: “Corporations aren’t people until Texas executes one.”
Citizen_X
There you go, Soonergrunt: somebody else who thinks his peers are smarter than him.
Soonergrunt
@Omnes Omnibus: I know Dad. But it’s just so much fun because he’s not very bright.
You’re going to make me do my homework now, aren’t you?
@amk: What happened is that he didn’t want to subject himself to the scrutiny of a Presidential run. People would’ve
learnedhad confirmed very quickly that he’s nothing but a bag of hot air under a cheap toupee that’s leveraged to the hilt and has no real value.amk
@Omnes Omnibus: oh, the record is perfect alright … for rush, the racist, bill o’ racist, klannity, pox news klowns and rwnj’s on AM. They make millions spewing venom & lies 24×7.
Your “founding fathers” must be whirring like a fan in their graves.
gnomedad
@Citizen_X:
He probably thought Mittens was trolling him.
Anne Laurie
@Paddy: Glad if we can help. Sometimes it’s stuff you wouldn’t imagine — for instance, older dogs (& cats) with failing kidneys may get weird ‘skin sensations’, so suddenly they’re uncharacteristically cranky about being touched, or being startled if that surprises them into unexpected-skin-contact. That’s why asking the vet about geriatric issues is important, even before the behavior-mod part.
amk
@Hill Dweller: a bit better ? nah, much better.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@Omnes Omnibus: Fair enough. I’ll give you the can be interesting and occasionally perceptive part – your troll is better than soonergrunt’s, heh.
But when you’re avoiding something or just bored, you might admit that the encouragement you provide to yours comes at some cost to the thread. Which is at times itself entertaining. So never mind.
Benjamin Franklin
+1
Omnes Omnibus
@amk: I think Citizens United was a bullshit decision. That being said, our system is premised on the idea that it is better to allow than to prevent speech. This means that horrible people get to have their say and that horrible thing get said. I am pretty close to being a William O. Douglas free speech absolutist, so take my opinions on this with however much salt you want.
Benjamin Franklin
@Omnes Omnibus:
Please clarify, for me and the masses.
Benjamin Franklin
burnie;
We await your legal expertise and sagacity (reflux-gagggh!)
amk
@Omnes Omnibus: that much amount of salt will surely kill me. My take – all that free speech has done for america is to divide its citizens along so many lines that they have become ineffective voices in deciding their own destiny.
And oh yeah, I hate absolutism in anything.
amk
@Soonergrunt: but that has never stopped that scumbag before.
Joey Maloney
@Soonergrunt:
I am so stealing this.
Anne Laurie
@Anne Laurie: Should add, for the audience in general, the single best “command” we taught our Rescue-Dog-That-Bites is “Go to your crate (bed, place) “. She came to us, ‘temporarily’, after being seized by the police in a neglect case; she’s scary-smart, fast, wants to be alpha (lifts her leg to pee), and strong-willed. Like Scarlett O’Hara, she had resolved never to go hungry again… and, like Scarlett, that resolution made her unfit for polite society. She would snatch anything that might be edible — plastic bread bags, tea bags, Dial soap wrappers — and protect her ‘loot’ with her teeth. But she quickly learned that if she “went to her crate” neither of us would have to up the ante on an argument; she could sit & collect herself and get in a better frame of mind. Two years later, she’s somewhat less insanely food-oriented, and she not only Goes To Her Crate on her own initiative when she’s getting overstimulated (arguing with the cats, or the other two dogs), she’s figured out how to hit the angle just right so she can slam the door behind her!
dogwood
@amk:
I think Trump would run in a heartbeat if he didn’t have to pony up from his own bank account. But I don’t think big money would invest in him as a 3rd party candidate, and he wouldn’t be Ron Paul with a movement and a small army of donors to keep him afloat. Though, he might jump in for 6 weeks or so just to say shit and get some attention. Whatever he does, I’d like to think he’s at least smart enough to keep quiet until after this year’s White House Correspondent’s Dinner.
amk
@Anne Laurie: LOL @ the punchline.
Omnes Omnibus
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): I am not going to promise that I will be good.
Grumpy Code Monkey
Ditching the Fairness Doctrine isn’t why our news sucks; the fact that major media companies see news as a cost center instead of a public service is why our news sucks.
News divisions have to carry their own weight revenue-wise. That’s easy to do when you own a substantial share of eyeballs; however, with the advent of cable and online outlets it’s become almost impossible. News divisions can’t afford to be impartial and objective anymore; piss off the wrong people and you’re out of a job in an unforgiving market.
God love Ted Turner, but the last thing this country needed was a 24-hour news network; it’s easier to pay for yourself when you only have to worry about filling a couple of hours of airtime a day.
And as has been pointed out ad nauseum, “fair” and “objective” are not synonymous. Giving the Flat Earthers equal time in a debate over the shape of the Earth may be fair, but it doesn’t serve the interest of anyone but the Flat Earthers. Some viewpoints are objectively wrong and really don’t deserve equal time.
Benjamin Franklin
@Grumpy Code Monkey:
Sorry. Daylight is the best remedy for any pov. Equal time is good for everyone.
WaterGirl
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): Bella, when you say “run, don’t walk” away from the alpha stuff, do you mean even what clear was suggesting above?
Omnes Omnibus
@amk: Fine. You are welcome to have and express your opinion.
Brother Shotgun of Sweet Reason
@Paddy: For general dog training and psychology, I recommend any of the books by the Monks of New Skete. I think their first one was “How to be your dog’s best friend”
Kola Noscopy
@Soonergrunt:
Does imagining that to be so ease the nightmares when you think about all the people, I mean enemy combatants, you murdered?
How many?
Benjamin Franklin
@Kola Noscopy:
I hesitate to suggest this comparison, but I believe you are lower than
burnspesq, or burnie, as I call him. Go infest Red State.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@WaterGirl: I do. Using “dominance” like holding a dog down by the shoulders, or rolling it over and holding there, is an outmoded method that is not useful and in fact is likely to make a dog fearful at best and dangerous at worst. There are current and productive ideas based on behavioral science as opposed to misinterpreted observations of packs of wolves (the alpha stuff). I understand that there is some disagreement about this, but I have yet to meet a modern veterinarian who will endorse the alpha idea, even if they aren’t behaviorists – it’s purely a popular culture idea.
I refer people to Dr. Sophia Yin’s site; she’s a vet and animal behaviorist and offers actual useful training tips. I’m not trying to start an argument as I know people are passionate the topic. But that’s my view.
Roger Moore
@amk:
You know what will happen if he’s pressed on this. He’ll go to his fall-back lie, which is that he’s really complaining that we’re being too generous and wasting money by giving aid to people who don’t need it. Thus all the money that goes to people who don’t really need it should also be counted as waste. It doesn’t matter that this contradicts his previous words (“very little of the money that’s actually needed … actually reaches [the people who need it]”) which imply that the problem is the deserving recipients aren’t getting the money they need. Showing that he’s lying about what he said before is just too meta for people to follow.
Kola Noscopy
@Benjamin Franklin:
But you are ok with reading and commenting on posts written by a confessed killer? Who has yet to come clean?
Red State is exactly where Soonerfunk should be posting. They like military fetishist killers over there. He’d fit right in.
Ken
Any law requiring news to be truth would be easily dodged. You just reclassify your news programs as “entertainment” or “opinion”, as some networks already do. The only utility of a law might be that it would force the program to clearly identify itself as non-news.
Soonergrunt
@Kola Noscopy: I know that originality, like breathing without prompting, is difficult for you, but do try harder next time, because that one’s so hackneyed and overdone that it doesn’t even rise up to the level of pathetic and sad.
@Kola Noscopy:
That’s stupid, whiny, and self-contradictory, all in two sentences. How very efficient of you.
Benjamin Franklin
@Kola Noscopy:
I think your viewpoint has a place in a perfect world. I believe if SG has killed, it was an honorable act. We don’t live in Utopia, but Dystopia.
amk
@Roger Moore: that fucker will lie/flip-flop/back pedal/spin everything he said and the third rate fourth estate will lap it all up.
Jane2
I don’t understand the article. Sun News is alive and well (if amateur and boring) on basic cable, and yes, it’s right wing. And I could, if I lost my mind, subscribe to the gamut of 24-hour-news wurlitzers, including Fox, MSNBC and CNN.
amk
@Soonergrunt: lol. the troll doesn’t think before he types at all, does it ?
scav
@amk: Pretty much a virgo intacta on the cognition end of existence is my diagnosis.
Grumpy Code Monkey
@Benjamin Franklin:
Sorry. Daylight is the best remedy for any pov. Equal time is good for everyone.
But giving equal weight to all viewpoints isn’t, which is the fundamental weakness of the Fairness Doctrine. It’s a false balance.
Kola Noscopy
@Soonergrunt:
Now, now, soonerkiller, you have NOT come clean on the NUMBER of people you estimate you killed. Just that you have. Which doesn’t qualify as coming clean. Try again.
Oh also, races and estimated ages of your victims would be good to know too. Cause they were actual HUMAN BEINGS, you know, not just notches on your whatever.
Kola Noscopy
@Benjamin Franklin:
And why, exactly, do you believe that? Seriously.
amk
@dogwood: may be that shady internet americans for something group can recruit trumpster ? He will bankrupt them and you get two mangoes with one stone.
Benjamin Franklin
@Grumpy Code Monkey:
Think of it this way….if flat-earthers get equal time to espouse their idiocy, their idiocy is exposed to the anti-bacterial uv rays of discourse. Then the
purveyors of that nonsense are visibleto all, including their
political identity with allattendant viewpoints.
Exposure, exposure, exposure. That’s key. Transparency is KING.
amk
@Grumpy Code Monkey:
egg.sack.lee. Instead of debunking the crazies then and there on fucking live teevee, they fucking validate them like they did with those racist, stupid, crazy teabaggers.
Omnes Omnibus
@Benjamin Franklin:
Terminiello v. City of Chicago, 337 U.S. 1 (1949) (internal citations omitted). Classic Douglas on the issue.
Benjamin Franklin
@Kola Noscopy:
I have only my impressions, and my instincts to guide me.
Omnes Omnibus
@Benjamin Franklin: You’ll have to excuse Kola; he is an ass.
Benjamin Franklin
@Omnes Omnibus:
Do you think your cite addresses ‘community standards’ as in SCOTUS
addressing ‘pornography’, or are you saying you saying CU is a necessary
evil for free speech absolutists?
Benjamin Franklin
@Omnes Omnibus:
I disagree. He is angry, and with good reason. He’s just preaching to the choir.
Omnes Omnibus
@Benjamin Franklin: I think that CU is the culmination of a group of decisions that effectively equated money with speech. Money can buy you a megaphone, but it is not speech. Add that set of decisions to the mutation of corporate personhood that has happened and you get CU.
ETA: I don’t think Douglas touched on community standards in that case, and, FWIW, with mass media and the internet, I think community standards in pr0n, etc., cases is a thing of the past.
@Benjamin Franklin: No, I have seen Kola in his various guises for a few years now; he is an ass.
Benjamin Franklin
Here’s where you lose me. How does a megaphone differ from speech?
scav
Christ, we’re surrounded by cognitive virgins.
Omnes Omnibus
@Benjamin Franklin: The megaphone is a tool to amplify speech. Take the tool away and the speech is still there. Public financing of elections would do more to fix things than bringing back the Fairness Doctrine IMO. It would also be less Constitutionally objectionable.
Benjamin Franklin
Thank the gods. I thought I was the lone ranger of PFE. May there be an Alliance between us.
Gust Avrakotos
That article on Canada has several things wrong. First of all Faux Noise is in Canada on most of the cable providers unfortunately. I personally have complained to the CRTC several times about it because if violates our hate and dishonesty laws. Especially when Glenn Beck was spreading his filth. The response I got was that because they are based in the US there wasn’t much the CRTC could do.
I call bullshit on that. Maybe taking advantage of bureaucratic loopholes but it wouldn’t be hard to fix that if our fuckhead right wing prime minister wanted to.
Fortuntately, what passes for right wing fuckhead politicians in Canada is nothing like the present day GOPers most of whom don’t even believe in science for fucks sakes.
The other thing is that Sun News channel isn’t owned by Faux but they would probably broadcast a lot of content from Faux.
toujoursdan
There is no law in Canada that restricts individual speech. There are hate speech laws, but their application is only to hate speech that is broadcast to the public. In other words, you can walk up to a cop and tell her that Hitler was right and all Jews should die, but you can’t broadcast it over the radio or put up billboards to that effect. (But even when this has been done, the courts have been reluctant to convict.)
Also, Sun TV has nothing to do with Fox News. It’s owned by Montreal-based Quebecor Corporation which runs the chain of tabloid Sun Newspapers, which are best known for their racey “Sunshine Girls”. Fox News is on almost everyone’s cable package in Canada. I used to get it in Ottawa. I don’t know many in Canada who watch it because it is focused on the politics of another country.
When Sun News appeared on my satellite package I tried watching it out of curiosity. But even if I agreed with the content, the delivery was just painful to watch. It was amateurish, shouty, ranty and very negative. The last BBM Canada ratings I saw stated their average daily audience was about 12,000 for the whole country and that is even with an Over the Air transmitter in the Toronto area.
cbear
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): First of all, in my advice to Paddy I wasn’t advocating “pinning” the dog to the floor or using any other “Cesar Milan” type agressive techniques in training her dog. I’m sorry if that was not clear.
Secondly, you are correct in that there are many new studies that suggest the “wolf pack” theory of dog behavior is outmoded and incorrect.
However, virtually every study, new and old, suggest that the most effective method of socializing your dog begins with basic obedience training which starts with sit, stay, and down—and that dogs are healthy and happy when they understand the rules of your household and what is expected of them.
Additionally, and I also do not want to get into an argument, but regardless of the theory involved, virtually every method of training (including the vet you cite) involves the owner taking the “leadership” role.
Again, sorry if I was not clear.
Omnes Omnibus
@Benjamin Franklin: In my view, people look at the vile ads and the instant response is to get rid of them. It is understandable, but dangerous. Aeropagitica, and all that. The root cause, though, is the money and the idea that money = speech. Kill those and things improve immediately. IOW, I am your ally in this, if nothing else.
Schlemizel
@Kola Noscopy:
what a piece of shit you are – die in a slow fire you lame excuse for what passes for a human being.
This is beyond reason – ban this fucker
amk
@Schlemizel: Funny isn’t it that cole tolerates this vile pos infesting his blog but yet couldn’t take ABL’s rightful takedown of gg’s vile attacks on obama supporters ?
eemom
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q):
@cbear:
Yes, we have an aggressive dog too, and it was also explained to us that the “wolf pack” theory is wrong — and this was by animal behavior specialists at the University of Pennsylvania, where we took her out of desperation to get her doggie head shrunk so we wouldn’t have to get rid of her.
In our case she wasn’t aggressive toward humans (except ones who show up unexpectedly in our front yard), but our other dog. We went through no end of agony — but she’s been on Prozac for several years now and the problem is mostly fixed (knock wood).
Paddy, if you are still around, it was explained to us that the doggie is anxious, and that she responds to that by being aggressive. It IS important to control the situations that you know will elicit that response, like getting angry yourself. You may also want to consult a vet about the possibility of medication.
eemom
oh fer fuxsake. I used the name of a NON-dick-enhancing drug and ended up in moderation…..!
Kola Noscopy
@Schlemizel:
Hey, you dumb sack of shit, please point out what part of Cole’s banning policy I’ve violated.
Thanks.
Omnes Omnibus
@eemom: Equal opportunity!
Kola Noscopy
@amk:
Hey stupid: Cole doesn’t ban people for hurting other foul mouthed commenters’ hypocritical, tender fee fees.
And it figures that you’re an ACL groupie: Both of you dish it out like shit-filled devils, but you just cannot take it in return.
Deal.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kola Noscopy: I don’t think you should be banned. I think you are a vile piece of shit and people should be aware that things like you exist. Enjoy your sad little life.
Kola Noscopy
@eemom:
why do you use dick enhancing drugs?
Kola Noscopy
@Omnes Omnibus:
My life is great. You’d be surprised because you’re an ignorant tribalist who thinks people can be accurately defined by what you perceive of them online in a fucking comment section of a blog.
If that were the case, I’d have to believe you are a sentient, moss covered turd floating in Cole’s unflushed toilet that somehow made its way to the keyboard. However strong the evidence, alas, that’s unlikely.
You think anything done while “following orders” is morally justified. You think soldiers have no agency and no responsibility. I say you’re wrong.
FlipYrWhig
@Benjamin Franklin: I actually believe, as Stanley Fish once wrote, “There’s no such thing as free speech, and it’s a good thing, too.” But my point was mostly about what I thought was an unfair association between being opposed to the “Fairness Doctrine” and believing in conservative Reagan/Bush politics. “Free speech absolutists,” like Omnes brought up later, don’t line up that readily on a right-left continuum. (I think the same is true of “civil libertarians,” a point I kept wanting to make in the Greenwald threads, lo how tedious I might make them.)
Jane2
@toujoursdan: It really does suck, doesn’t it. So amateurish, so ridiculous….it’s a shame, really, because i do respect David Akin. But clowns like Ezra Levant and Charles Adler are painful to watch.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kola Noscopy: Wrong at any variety of levels. I have, during my military service, challenged orders given by higher ranking officers. In addition, during officer candidate school, the a lot of attention was paid to the idea that “I was just following orders” is not a valid justification for a war crime. An order to perform an illegal act is not a valid order and should be disobeyed. So, fuck you.
Larime the Gimp
Is Pedobear acting out again?
Omnes Omnibus
@FlipYrWhig: Free speech absolutists on the courts tend to be of the left, but your general point is well-taken.
amk
@Kola Noscopy: It’s your stupid idiocy that burns and deserves a ban.
Kola Noscopy
@Omnes Omnibus:
And who decides, ultimately, in the moment, whether an act is “illegal?” The individual soldier. And is any act automatically morally justified because it fits some government’s arbitrary “legal” codes? I think Nuremberg indicated otherwise.
well argued. I can easily see why you hold yourself above my vile level in the commenting department. YOu are ever so much more polite.
Omnes Omnibus
@amk: See, this is where free speech absolutism has a dark side. I don’t support banning and I don’t have a pie filter.
BTW, I am gathering that you are not a USian and are not a lawyer. Free speech absolutism, as I used it, is really an American legal term of art and should be viewed in that context.
Kola Noscopy
@amk:
Well, obvs, stupid idiocy that burns is not on the ban list, otherwise you would have been gone long ago, and ACL and Soonerfunk would never have posted a word.
Fess up: You’re fine with any level of bile as long as it’s spewed in support of positions and posters you feel special about. Too bad. Go over to the Clown Show and tell ACL all about it. She likes your brand of bile. She spews it too.
amk
@Kola Noscopy: thereby proving my point.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kola Noscopy: Wow. You can’t possibly be that dumb. Are you on a respirator?
Kola Noscopy
Just as a general comment: I find much of what a select few commenters and one front pager at BJ write to be highly objectionable and offensive…on a regular basis.
Yet I have no desire, or need, to see any of them banned from posting their drivel. I find it quite possible to read their crap and either go about my day or reply as pleases me.
What is it about certain commenters of a certain clique and type, that they cannot operate in the same way regarding others whose writing THEY find objectionable?
After all this time, I can safely guess it’s simply an authoritarian impulse in service of an insecure personality type.
Kola Noscopy
@Omnes Omnibus:
So clever. Yet you didn’t respond, of course. Because ultimately, you think orders justify any fucking thing a soldier does.
Omnes Omnibus
@Kola Noscopy: Actually, I said I did not. Following orders is not a justification for a war crime. I said that above. The effort you put into misinterpreting what people say is amazing. Cheers.
Catsy
@burnspbesq:
Yeah, you know what Sparky? How about you refrain from telling me what I would or wouldn’t think. Your track record on that front leaves a lot to be desired.
Because from where I’m sitting, I’m just peachy with the notion of everyone being held to the same standard of truth when it comes to broadcast news–so long as everyone is.
I’m pretty sure I’ve heard that phrase somewhere once or twice.
I’m equally sure that there is well-established legal precedent carving out exceptions to the effect that no, you may not in fact say anything you want at any time under any circumstances without consequences. I’m pretty sure I mentioned a few of those in the comment you replied to. You may want to go back and read it.
Because while it may feel clever to quote the First Amendment at me as if that settled the matter, it would behoove you to jog your memory a bit and recall that no, free speech is not quite that black-and-white, and setting limits on what kind of lies someone can tell in public is neither unprecedented nor automatically constitutionally suspect.
Also too, what @Lojasmo said.
Larime the Gimp
@Pedobear: Or maybe he just doesn’t want to interrupt them because the victims might be enjoying it?
Omnes Omnibus
@Larime the Gimp: Oh, fuck no. Don’t bring me into that.
Larime the Gimp
@Omnes Omnibus: I was being facetious.
Omnes Omnibus
@Larime the Gimp: I know that, but still…
eemom
@Kola Noscopy:
you’d better ask Glenn. tee hee.
eemom
I would appreciate it if there are any sentient FPers around if they would release my comment. I was trying to help the guy who asked for advice about his doggie.
Omnes Omnibus
@eemom: Do you actually think anyone with any power on this blog is still reading this thread?
Roger Moore
@Omnes Omnibus:
Do remember, though, that the 1st Amendment also protects freedom of the press. In the context of mass media, it’s hard for me to see why it should be fine for somebody to print and give away pamphlets or books in support of a political position but not spend the same money making the same arguments on an infomercial. Please explain to me why paid cable TV programs don’t deserve protection under the freedom of press part of the 1st Amendment.
cbear
@Omnes Omnibus:
I couldn’t agree more and frankly I’m sick and tired of the constant calls for banning people.
Some of you here might do well to go read Cole’s post on
BJ’s 10th Anniversary.
Here’s the key graph:
Omnes Omnibus
@Roger Moore: Fundamentally, we, all of us, own the airwaves. That is why courts have justified greater interference in broadcast as opposed to print media. Philosophically, though, I don’t really see why you think I don’t believe that paid TV infomercials don’t deserve 1st Amendment protection. Please explain.
gaz
As I recall, the FCC used to prevent “News” programs from telling lies.
That was some time ago…
meh.
I turned my TV off a long time ago. Still pretty pissed about papers in general though.
gaz
@amk: ABL *chose* to leave.
/any discussion of abl.
I just couldn’t let that stand alone. it’s just false.
I’ll shut up now.
gaz
@Larime the Gimp: I see what you did there. heh.
Soonergrunt
@eemom: I cleared it a few minutes ago.
amk
@gaz: I know. I was referring to john taking up cudgels on behalf of gg in that stupid twitter war while he lets the troll here slide.
Chuck Butcher
@amk:
I suppose you could also really show him by leaving as well. I don’t particularly care one way or the other, but whatever you think…
Kola Noscopy
@amk:
Could you explain precisely who exactly it is you think you are? Cause I don’t think anyone in management gives a shit what you think about how this joint is run. What a whiner.
Karl The Crap Blog Detective
@Lojasmo:
But if he does that he’ll stop existing.
amk
@Kola Noscopy: The posts are more about your doucheness than about the ‘managemint’.
amk
@Chuck Butcher: Meh.
gelfling545
@Paddy: 1. Get to the doctor & get an antibiotic. If you don’t you will rue the day. 2. Since she came out of an unhealthy living situation, ask your vet if there are any trainers in the area who deal with formerly abused/neglected dogs. You will need some guidance in how to “undo” these behaviors.
Grumpy Code Monkey
@Benjamin Franklin:
Transparency doesn’t help if the general audience doesn’t have the knowledge or experience to tell which side is being the idiot. I used Flat Earthers because almost everyone with a room temperature IQ understands that the Earth isn’t flat; it’s easy for the general audience to tell which position is not supported by facts.
But suppose it’s a debate over, say, vaccinations and autism. The majority of the general audience aren’t pediatricians, epidemiologists, neurologists, etc. How would a layman determine which side was supported by the weight of evidence, if the Fairness Doctrine dictates that both sides must be presented as though they had equal weight (at least, before it was revealed that Wakefield faked his results)? How many people are going to spend the time doing the research necessary to make that determination?
Even without a Fairness Doctrine, anti-vaxxers have been able to influence a large number of parents who don’t know any better, with some devastating real-world consequences.
Svensker
@Kola Noscopy:
You must run a movie theater with that amount of projection.
Pongo
For the Times to even ask this question in the way that they did further muddies the ‘reality vs belief’ tug of war going on in our culture. Facts are facts because they are demonstrably provable. If a ‘fact’ or the interpretation of a fact is legitimately in question it is not a fact–it is a belief or opinion. If it is demonstrably not true, then it is a lie and not a ‘fact’ at all.
This really seems so simple and yet that the ‘fact’ (demonstrably proven as evidenced on their own website) that the Times felt the need to throw this out for discussion only demonstrates that the cultural movement that contends ‘facts’ should be defined by popular vote of the most vocal and ill-informed majority, rather than empirical evidence has far too much influence in our culture. I think we can really thank W for this, as it was his minions who raised ‘wrong doesn’t matter as long as you are loud and intransigent about it’ to an artform.
Regardless of the Times’ intention, even bringing this up for debate was a win for stupidity.
Kola Noscopy
@amk:
Wrong. You’re one of a few always bitching that Cole doesn’t run this place as you see fit, mostly by banning people who hold views contrary to yours.
For intance: I think YOU are primarily a douche. However, I’m not constantly agitating to have you banned, and complaining that Cole hasn’t yet done my bidding in making it so.
That is your MO
Kola Noscopy
@Svensker:
Ummm…that sounds real snappy and all, and I’m sure you’ve been waiting a while to use it, but could you point out where I have been the one trying to have other commenters banned, in an effort to silence them because their typed words hurt my fee fees?
Thanks!
maus
I’m usually pro free-speech with the *media*, but “free speech” is a misnomer when it comes to private discussion sites.
Some people are crazy, some people are deceptive, some people are inciteful, and some people are just really really poor at arguing, and a combination of these means that occasionally, you’ll have some people who are just all noise and no signal.
I helped admin a pretty large (~200k) member forum and there were more than a few members that screwed up discussion for everyone. I banned them, because “Absolute Free Speech” is a less important concept to me than a happy, productive forum devoid of assholes.
The worst part about the unconstructives is that they’re usually ruleslawyers, so I just leave a “don’t be an asshole” clause and that pretty much covers them.
Anyone who wants a completely unmoderated forum probably hasn’t spend much time in them.
The Brick Oven Bills (and similar poster) get banned because they’re insincere, full of hate, and only end up repeating themselves, not because they’re conservatives.
Nobody’s suggesting we become Redstate or Huffpo with their assholish moderation.
maus
That said I don’t remember Kola Noscopy’s sins/crimes/whatever so I have no clue what to suggest regarding this current backseat modding derail.
MacKenna
Just a heads up about the corporate-owned-Harper-endorsing Canadian press. The Globe and Mail, the National Post, and the canwest papers (which account for most of the media) are solidly behind Harper. Harper spin dominates 90% of our media. Many “reporters” are now columnists with opinions that strongly favour Dear Leader. It’s disgusting how bought and owned these whores are.
Benjamin Franklin
@Grumpy Code Monkey:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but thimerosal is a bad example as well.
If the medical industry were more transparent about what, and how they
made things, and were not suspect disinformationalists, the public might have a better perspective on the pros/cons of vaccs.
Transparency is king….
maus
@Benjamin Franklin:
What an absolutely bullshit idea. The issue with the public view of vaccination is with mainstream new-age sources of media like the Oprah show and the complicit media that gives pseudoscientists a soapbox.
Benjamin Franklin
@maus:
I call your bullshit and raise you one muleflop.
The scientific community protects their own with nearly the same zeal as lawyers employed by Pharma.
maus
@Benjamin Franklin: sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/category/vaccines/
You have Michelle Bachmann’s ability to discern the “issues” behind vaccinating children.
maus
Wait, “muleflop”, I guess I’m arguing with makoto-chan.
Never you mind, I won’t bother assuming the ability to discern reality from fantasy.
Benjamin Franklin
@maus:
Morons need not apply.
Just for the record, moron.
Benjamin Franklin
Get yourself to a blog that cares what you think, like RedState.