Dan Savage got glitterbombed again for being insufficently trans-sensitive:
This is the second time the transgender ally has been glitterbombed. But Savage is not alone. He joins an impressive array of high-profile celebrities who are gay or trans-friendly who have been called to the carpet by trans activists. Neil Patrick Harris, Lance Bass, and Kelly Osbourne have all found themselves in hot water with the trans community. With the new civil-rights frontier cresting for trans people, “tranny” is no longer considered OK. […]
“The whole idea is that the word ‘tranny’ is on par with the ‘N’ word; it’s the ‘T’ word, and ‘faggot’ is the F word—that’s a new development,” Savage said. “The word ‘tranny’ wasn’t discussed as this hate term until very recently, when the top-secret memo went out, but it didn’t go out to everyone all at once. There’s this learning curve that everyone’s on. I’ve stopped using the word except when I’m constantly forced to talk about the fact that I don’t use the word, which forces me to use the word, and, literally, that has been held as evidence of my transphobia.”
This kind of purer-than-thou ally-policing is a marker of movement cowardice. If the glitterbombers wanted to draw serious mainstream media attention to societal attitudes towards the transgendered, they’d be glitterbombing the haters. Instead, they pick on the verbal slips of sympathetic allies who have already internalized their message, because it’s a safe way to get a little bit of attention. Whenever a movement is using this kind of “inreach” rather than real “outreach”, it’s time to get new leaders.
c u n d gulag
Hmm…
Kind of reminiscent of Glenn Greenwald and the FDL Obama-haters, no?
Jennifer
Reminds me of the “why won’t Obama say he supports gay marriage?!?” crowd, last spring, and how everyone who pointed out that it 1) wouldn’t actually advance the issue if he said he did and 2) would possibly cost him the election by alienating voters in swing states he carried in 2008 was clearly not a good liberal.
This shit is nothing more than totemism.
Anya
I find the glitterbomb business asinine. It’s counter productive and highly stupid. Attacking politicians or opponents with objects does not win you any sympathies, but you lose people who might’ve sided with you.
13th Generation
@c u n d gulag:
Here we go again. And on a beautiful Saturday morning even.
Yevgraf
Popcorn for the drama. Let the “we’re so huuuuuuuuuuurt, quit dissing us for our hurtness” ramp up to 11.
cmm
Meanwhile I am still trying to get my co-workers to stop calling transexual people “he-she”. Tranny would be progress.
gbear
@Anya: I agree with you that glitterbombs are kind of a dumb idea, but it wouldn’t bother me at all if Marcus Bachmann was glitterbombed daily.
RalfW
@Jennifer:
Sadly, the “why won’t Obama say he supports gay marriage?!?” is still in full poutrage now.
I’m a gay man who’s been very active in both LGBT and non-LGBT politics/progressivism/liberation for over 20 years. And I find the sort of thing that Savage and mistermix writes about to be incredibly frustrating.
Pick the real targets, people! Newt flippin’ Gingrich is a real target. Maggie Gallagher is a real target. Focus on the Faggot (er, um, Focus on the Family) is a real target.
The thing about stuff like glitterbombs, though, is that they’re not coming from leadership. But there has to be a better way of reaching, engaging and training the young activists who are pissed off and want to act.
There is good news, though. NGLTF’s Creating Change is happening right now, in Baltimore. If its anything like last year’s in Minneapolis, there are a ton of young, very diverse and very smart activists (2,000 attendance, including old farts like me as well) getting a lot of support in picking real targets and how to moblize effectively to counter them.
Tonybrown74
Calling someone out or being critical is one thing. Even protesting may be necessary. But actually assaulting someone – and glitter-bombing, pie-throwing, etc is actual assault – is wrong. I’ve always felt so, even when people like Ann Coulter were getting “pied” at speeches.
It’s just wrong. And it makes them look like petulant children.
WereBear (itouch)
Criminy, it’s like First Law: don’t piss off allies and don’t be pissy with them.
Another hallmark of this kind of stupidity is constantly moving the goalposts so one is never, ever, happy.
Happiness is wrong.
Alexandra
I’m many years post-op, relatively stealth, and have absolutely no problems with the word ‘tranny’ myself, often using it when referring to myself and my own friends.
I can fight my own battles and don’t need any self-appointed vigilantes to start policing language and glitter-bombing people on any side of the argument. Besides, this form of narcissistic form of protest is utterly trivial and attention-seeking of the wrong kind, light years from the serious work in the trenches working on improving employment, equal opportunity and housing laws in order to improve the lives of others.
The trans community suffers enough from lack of visible ego-free leadership, because many just want to go stealth after they’ve done the heavy lifting and also being marginalised by institutional organisations that, ostensibly and superficially embrace the entire spectrum of GLBT causes. Back of the bus comes to mind… and this does no favours. Idiotic and infantile gesture politics at its worst.
middlewest
Reminds me of the self-appointed anti-ableism crusaders who spend more time online policing naughty words like “crazy” and “lame” than fighting for better transportation, fair employment, and universal health care in the real world. Cuz if there’s one thing disabled people love, it’s paternalism!
c u n d gulag
@13th Generation:
Yeah, you’re right.
Sorry about that.
I just figured John hasn’t come down and yelled at us in a while, and maybe needed something to get pissed-off at.
YellowJournalism
@gbear: Marcus Bachmann kind of reminds me of Rip Taylor, so I don’t think he would mind being glitterbombed, either.
harlana
haters gonna hate so i guess i can see the point of challenging LGBT leaders first, the closest allies transgenders have, since the haters might outright kill ’em
that said, i’m not into the whole “word police” business either
RedKitten
Yeah, this just strikes me as akin to howling because your friend returned your sweater without dry-cleaning it, while thugs are robbing your house and shitting on your sofa.
celticdragonchick
As another trans woman posting here, I will add that the glitter bombing thing is stupid, even though I agree with the protestors that “tranny” is inflammatory and generally associated with pornography. I am not a porn actress or a home wrecker on Jerry Springer, I resist the “tranny” appellation that has come to be associated with that kind of exploitive imagery.
Dan Savave has had some pretty f’ed up things to say about trans issues in the past, so I will not shed tears for him…but that glitter thing is self indulgent and counter productive.
c u n d gulag
@YellowJournalism:
RIP TAYLOR!
LOL!
God, we’re both old…
Benjamin Franklin
The Homomilitia and their focus on the friendlies, is a lot like the behavior of trolls. It’s the glare of those stage lights and the irresistible force of negative attention, up against that unmovable object, public sympathy.
IOW, masochism.
Hal
Awww, but I love the word Tranny.
BTW, who gets to officially decide when a word has now become akin to the n-word and other historically derogatory phrases?
WaterGirl
@c u n d gulag: I hope you don’t mind the intrusion, just wanted to say that I was sorry to read about your dad’s illness (in the comments on steve benen’s site).
sb
@c u n d gulag: Well then just say “Steelers da suckkkk!!!!” and leave it at that.
Or talk about his picture. :)
Jennifer
Paging Dr. Bombay, Dr. Bombay, please come in…
Alexandra
@celticdragonchick:
There may be some cultural differences between our two stances. Here in the UK, that connection isn’t so overt, or not that I’ve noticed. There’s also an element of who precisely is using that term and in what context, a familiar argument, no doubt.
Anyway, all that to one side, nice to meet you. :)
Jennifer
@Hal: Yeah, it can be touchy, can’t it?
A gay friend of mine took offense at me referring to a gathering as a homo party…which was a term I picked up from another gay friend of mine.
I did ask him why he found it offensive, given that “homo” is pretty much just the analogue for “hetero” which doesn’t offend anyone…but he couldn’t really articulate why it bothered him. I said, that’s ok, you don’t have to be able to tell me why – now that I know it bothers you I won’t use it in your presence.
Which we’re seeing here in the comments, with Alexandra being ok with “tranny” and celticdragonchick not being ok with it.
I think the answer there is just general courtesy – you don’t refer to people in terms that they find offensive. By the same token, if you know the person who used the term meant no offense, you should exhibit the courtesy of telling them you found their words offensive rather than launching a full-scale attack, and then forget about it.
Gwangung
Personally, I’ve always felt “I prefer that (xxxx term) not be used, because it’s a little offensive” was thes best thing to do. The first time you can chalk it up to ignorance; subsequent times you can show at its due to willful obnoxiousness.
c u n d gulag
@WaterGirl:
WaterGirl,
No intrusion at all.
Thank you for thinking of him – and me. :-)
ChrisNYC
@Hal: Easy. Don’t call people what they ask you not to call them. I’ve never understood why this is such a difficult concept to grasp.
celticdragonchick
@Alexandra:
Pleased to meet you as well :) As we Scots might say: Cead Mile Failte, or “ten thousand greetings!”
I knew that there was myself and Amanda South Bay who were trans women readers here, and it is always nice to have another sister join in.
Since I am now in my last semester of a science degree at an expensive private college in North Carolina and I intend to be taken seriously as a person at grad school and beyond, I get very agitated when I am compared to somebody that has been doing blow jobs at a Hot Tranny Creampie! website. That’s why I am not at all fond of the term “tranny” as it is used by people here in America.
GregB
Outlandish street theater or not, glitter-bombing is a subtle form of assault.
I don’t like it and would encourage people to cease the use of this tactic.
Imagine some wingnuts dumping Confederate flags or holy water on lefties or Democrats.
Say no to glitter-bombing.
WaterGirl
@c u n d gulag: Thanks for being so gracious.
I was pretty excited to see a steve benen post up already at the new place. Maybe I need to give it more time, but the new guy at political animal just isn’t doing it for me.
celticdragonchick
@Jennifer:
Absolutely.
I do not attack people who have used the term “tranny”, and I make a point of not getting (visibly at least) upset when somebody uses the wrong pronoun (which happens from time to time).
I try to gently correct them and then move on.
Also…
Having read the article, I can see there are some real delicate hothouse flowers in the trans community posing as activists and they are not helping us one bit.
“Cisgender”? Really? I have had a number of, ahem, discussions with the more radical trans activist sorts who want to completely deconstruct gender as we understand it, and who argue that binary gender is an artificial cultural concept.
Uh, yeah.
That may make an interesting paper in the sociology department, but nobody else is buying that one. I am not interested in being a “between gender” or genderless person. I think of myself as female and I am perfectly happy with that just as it is.
Benjamin Franklin
@celticdragonchick:
How’s Scottish Indepedence proceeding?
Alexandra
@celticdragonchick:
I definitely read. And lurk. All day, almost every day. Have done so for years, know many of the regulars here and their posting habits just through their handles… but rarely post because I’m far too susceptible to dicking around on the web and getting too involved with online communities and the drama that often follows in its wake.
Just couldn’t keep my trap shut when it comes to trans topics, though. Better go, work to do this weekend. Have a good one, everyone. :)
harlana
@Jennifer: as you and others have pointed out, using that term as a non-gay would have a different meaning. it appears to me that if you are gay or LGBT (or any member of a minority group) it’s ok to use those derogatory terms amongst your own, it’s like blacks using the word n—– and as a white person, it’s not my place to say whether it is right or wrong but i know i am not supposed to say it, nor do i have any desire to do so (unlike some of my counterparts).
but it makes sense to me that LGBT’s use some of the standard derogatory terms used by straight society to describe/condemn them, amongst themselves – it appears it is always done in a humorous and self-deprecatory manner – because they have that understanding amongst themselves, it’s a recognition of being part of that group – when a straight person says it, however, it translates to the LGBT listener as a judgment.
being white & straight with no gay friends, i’m just throwing that out there as my own subjective observation, anybody who feels different, please feel free to correct me. i’m not expressing it very well, i’m sure.
Amanda in the South Bay
Personally, I don’t give a shit about Dan Savage, don’t like the T word, and have long since had a bit of unease about the cis queer crowd (yes, I like the word cis too).
Whatever.
ETA: I guess I’m a little bitter this morning, in addition to seeing this wonderful topic the first thing here on BJ. Just an excuse to bash trans activists and denounce the circular firing squad.
Villago Delenda Est
@celticdragonchick:
OK, I’m having real problems parsing this sentence. They can’t possibly be serious, can they? Next they’ll be telling me that they can float in the air because gravity is a concept of the oppressive gender locked masses.
These folks and Sarah Palin have a lot in common, now that I think of it…
celticdragonchick
@Benjamin Franklin:
I am an American of Scottish descent (I am a member of the Clan Douglas Society of North America). An awful lot of folks in the Scottish diaspora get really involved in the independence issue, but I don’t. I do not have a sufficient grasp of the separation issues and although I am emotionally sympathetic to Scottish independence, I also realize my family has been here since the time of Cromwell (I had two ancestors fight in the Revolutionary War at the Battle of Kings Mountain on the patriots side) and that Scottish Independence is not really my fight.
celticdragonchick
@Alexandra:
Have a good weekend and hope your work goes well :)
Roger Moore
@Gwangung:
Might I suggest that you add “I’d rather you use term yyy instead” as part of the correction? I find that it’s generally better to tell people the right way of doing something rather than just telling them their current approach is wrong.
Benjamin Franklin
@celticdragonchick:
Lang May Yer Lum Reek!
celticdragonchick
@Villago Delenda Est:
That is just about how I feel about it. I can buy into a gender continuum concept where you can have women who present somewhat masculine but still identify as female, as well as somewhat effeminate men who are still entirely straight etc etc…but you still end up with a binary system and you cannot get around a degree of biological determinism in the end. We are, for reproductive purposes…male and female, and cultures around the earth have to take that into account. We are a product of evolution and the binary gender system, no matter what your idiosyncratic ideas may be, is what we are left with.
celticdragonchick
@Benjamin Franklin:
LOL!
Jennifer
@Roger Moore: One sentence covers the ground, in a polite and civil way:
“Actually, I prefer to be called _______________.”
celticdragonchick
@Amanda in the South Bay:
Cheer up. :) It is a lovely day and we can still laugh at the humorless cretins at FreeRepublic who are now denouncing Ann Coulter (seriously!) as a RINO traitor…
Rusty
Other commenters have already commented on this but your “leaders” remark misses the mark by a mile. This is, so far, a leaderless movement. No one with any sort of authority has been able to emerge yet. And considering this fact, perhaps blog posts that complain of glitterbombs from the periphery of the movement aren’t all that helpful. Savage and others are trying to help this movement along. Let’s give them a little space, and time to define themselves.
Joe Max
Oh no, what’s going to happen to Trannyshack??? I love that show!
http://www.trannyshack.com/
noodler
well, words have meanings, its the difference between what the communicator intends and says and the receiver hears but once we are on a commonly agreed to definition of a term, then get onboard, otherwise we get back to “it depends on what the meaning of the word is is” parsing. so, hey, just respect the boundary.
RalfW
@celticdragonchick:
There is a tendency to confuse sex with gender. As I understand it, gender can be said to be a construct that uses sex organ difference as a primary signal.
Which is a bit different than saying “binary gender is an artificial cultural concept.”
A societal construct isn’t, per se, artificial. But it is an agreed norm, and that norm can be changed. There have been cultures through history that have third or even third and fourth genders. Those cultures have tended to be small and to be subsumed by the dominant construct as humans spread and connected.
So, while the phrase above is oddly put and I think spins things unhelpfully – artificial concept strikes me as pejorative – I’ll just trying to be descriptive to say that gender is different than sex.
Of course gender also contains other signals, such as depth of voice, hight difference, hair line, all sorts of things. But I know femmy straight guys, butch gays (and butch straights) etc.
There are many examples of variance within the gender construct that many have nothing to do with what ‘parts’ one has. At different times we’ve been more or less accepting of deviance from the norm.
Watch an old David Bowie video to see how much western culture played with gender concepts in the late 70s…
Omnes Omnibus
Interesting discussion here. I don’t know that I have ever used the word “tranny,” but, now that I know it is a word that can cause offense, I will make sure to avoid it in the future. Seems simple enough to me.
sb
@celticdragonchick: Seriously? I mean, seriously??
OMFG.
sb
@Omnes Omnibus: My son used it the other day and I told him exactly that. No need for a big lecture, no need for details. And he replied, “Then I won’t use it anymore.”
Pretty simple.
Joel
Glitterbombing is fucking annoying. Why not put some real shoe leather into your cause, rather than being a fucking WATB about it.
greennotGreen
To me, “tranny” seems more akin to “nigra” in that its use is more likely due to ignorance than disrespect.
On the subject of “binary gender system”: humans are generally one of two sexes that are biologically determined, but there are variations when the sex chromosomes decide to do something a little different or when other genes get involved in the expression of sexual traits. So even biologically, the sexes are not always crisply and clearly male/female.
Gender is culturally defined and is not limited to male/female in all cultures, e.g., the “two-spirit” individuals among Native American tribes. Sexuality is just one part of an individual’s entire make-up, and there are so many variations in sex and gender that trying to assign terms is a headache. It’s easier just to accept the person as presented, apply the pronouns of that person’s choosing, and be done with it.
greennotGreen
@RalfW: Oh, and what RalfW said.
c u n d gulag
@WaterGirl:
I miss Steve, and I’ll look for him.
Can you send me a link?
I came to WaMo at about the same time he started writing there, and I stayed because he’s great.
I’m ok with Ed. I think we need to give him some time to find his voice.
Benen’s one hell of a tough act to follow!
Amanda in the South Bay
I personally despise the word tranny, because its often used as a derogatory term for trans women. So yes, it gets annoying when trans guys and supposed allies say shit like that.
I’ve long since gotten used to the idea that cis (and I do like that word) allies, especially queer people, are just going to fuck it up when it comes to trans issues. Of course, I’ve had some pretty bad experiences in the past with that sorta thing; just because you’re gay, doesn’t mean you know jack shit about trans issues or can speak authoritatively on such matters.
I guess I don’t really see the point of these threads. Its just a forum for people to +1/me too the idea of casting aside radicals who are supposedly all circular firing squad. Its why I find politics so confusing sometimes on left wing blogs-sometimes you are supposed to be all anti-circular firing squad, sometimes its okay to criticize your fellow leftists. Its confusing, and I guess depends on if its a well like FPer who posted the stuff.
But I’m digressing. I suppose, given my age and geographical location, I’m probably more likely to be sympathetic, if not to the actual glitterbombings, to holding cis queer people accountable for saying stupid shit (see Bilerico Project, The, circa December 2009).
gaz
@Amanda in the South Bay: I agree with you completely.
And anyone that wants to pooh-pooh on some trans people for overly “militant” or whatever should go check out the murder wall. And then get back to me.
*shakes head*
I nearly forgot to add the obligatory, FUCK HRC to this post.
celticdragonchick
@RalfW:
I know what you are saying.
Yet, demanding a new set of intra gender pronouns like Si and Hir along with demanding that gender itself does not even exist are Quixotic in the extreme as I see it.
Not to mention pretty damned confusing.
TruthOfAngels
This is bollocks. Savage used the word ‘tranny’, didn’t realise it was insensitive, people told him, now he knows. He’s not up on a fucking cross, is he?
Srsly. Spare the woe.
celticdragonchick
@gaz:
Militancy doesn’t bother me in the slightest. I am absolutist on demanding equal rights and equal respect.
I just want to be sure we are engaging the right targets, as I might have said back when I was still a door gunner.
Also, fuck HRC.
Amanda in the South Bay
TBQH I tend to think its possible to do both things-hold allies accountable, even realize that they are mostly on your side, but still stand your ground when they say offensive things (and yes, tranny is offensive to a lot of trans women).
I guess I don’t like these kinds of posts where the choices are rather binary-join the anti-circular firing squaddies, or play angry marginalized radical. Its the same as politics for the past three years. Sometimes Obama is worse than Bush, sometimes its STFU cause you dont’ want a Republican to win in 2012 because they’d destroy the country.
celticdragonchick
@Amanda in the South Bay:
Exactly.
With this, I will check out of the thread since I have things to do. Hope your day goes well, Amanda. :)
Omnes Omnibus
@Amanda in the South Bay: Why is this post offering a binary choice? It has a comment section where one is free to offer alternatives. You have availed yourself of it. mistermix offered his observation that he thinks glitterbombing is not helpful. People are free to disagree.
FWIW I think it is worthwhile to have posts on topics like this. I, for one, do not come across these issues in my day to day life, and I learned quite a bit from the discussion here. Given my life circumstances, these are things I probably would not have come across anywhere else.
PhoenixRising
Amanda, I’m going to disagree with you. It’s not clear to me that we can all learn from the distinctive aspects of T politics within and alongside the LBGT movement, but there is something quite distinct from the circular firing squad going on here.
Someone way up top brought up what seems to me a nugget of important truth. She transitioned some time ago, isn’t active in trans politics and thinks glitter bombs on gay allies don’t make sense. Someone else brought up the fact that trans activists are a leaderless movement. Here’s how I see these facts connecting to paint a picture that is quite different from other in-group identity policing and ally alienating among progressives: trans people who successfully transition get to go stealth and go on with their lives. Not all can pass, though. So the “movement” is building from a base of a few people who are choosing to be there, and a lot of people who need the protections that the movement advocates. Realistically, they can only expect to achieve those with allies.
Brighidg
On the one hand, glitterbombing is silly.
On the other hand, Dan Savage is a biphobic, transphobic, misogynist jerk.
Tough call.
RalfW
@celticdragonchick:
I blame having two hands.
Kinda kidding.
But really, because we’re bipedal, two handed people (mostly – I know there’s variation in this too) we have bipartisanship, both sides do it, male/female, etc.
Our lived experience constantly reinforces the notion that there are two answers to a question, a right and wrong way to do things, a guy and a gal and adam and eve not adam and steve.
I don’t think we’ll get far away from that dominant bias. I don’t know that in all things we should.
But I’m someone who thinks bipartisanship has f*cked us over rather badly. That news reporters always presenting the two, and only two, choices in their inverted triangle storyline means that there’s rarely a syntheses or a new possibility opening up (and no, I do not mean that American’s Elect is a good idea, it’s just a scam for the gay-friendly rich).
Our personal bag of bones constantly tells us there’s two choices. But really, all that dualism is in service to one brain, one heart. Not sure this decade or this lifetime will see that wholistic-ness blossoming.
ETA: typos. My two hands are sloppy.
Catsy
Aside from the inanity and counter-productiveness of assaulting anyone–let alone your allies–by throwing anything at them, here’s the problem I have with this.
As the variety of responses from actual transpeople in this thread demonstrates, there is by no stretch of the imagination any kind of consensus that the term “tranny” is actually inherently offensive. Having been friends with a number of transpeople over the years, I can recall a number of them actually using it.
What I’d agree with is the point a number of people have already made: if a term bothers you, you are well within your rights to tell the person using it, “that term bothers me; I prefer to be called X”. And if they persist in using the term to you after that, they’re being inconsiderate. I have always made a point of referring to people using the gender and pronoun of their preference, regardless of how far along the continuum they are or what they look like to me. Hell, I spent a nontrivial portion of my own youth being very gender-ambiguous and not entirely certain what I identified as.
It’s basic courtesy.
What pisses me off is self-appointed language police arrogating the role of spokesperson for an entire community by engaging in linguistic engineering to manufacture a sense of outrage or offense against a given word–in people described by that word who don’t already find it offensive. People like this are creating a problem where it doesn’t already exist.
If it bothers you, say that it bothers you. That’s your prerogative and I encourage you to speak up.
But don’t presume to speak for everyone else.
Amanda in the South Bay
Because a total of (IIRC) three trans people responded? That’s your sample size? ISTM you’re getting close to “My non trans experience is worth more than your trans experience cause I’ve had trans friends”.
TruculentandUnreliable
“Cicular firing squad” assumes that Savage is on equal grounds with transpeople or really has any skin in the game, though. From what I’ve seen, Savage has been a piss-poor ally to transpeople, beyond just the “tranny” bullshit.*
Savage’s voice is going to be heard a lot more than any voice within the trans movement (and probably more than most people within the LGBTQ movement in general). When he uses the word “tranny”, he normalizes it within the community and gives people outside of the community “permission” to use it, as well. (“Even the gay activist Dan Savage” etc etc etc).
As a person outside of the trans community, I’m not comfortable in telling anyone how they should/shouldn’t react to things that affect their community. If people within the movement think it’s counterproductive, that’s cool. If they don’t, that’s cool, too. As a cisperson, I’m not going to tell people who fear losing their jobs or their lives because of who they are that they’re “overreacting”.
*Also, I’m sorry, but his “I didn’t get the memo” thing is silly. If he had been paying attention AT ALL, he’d have known it was offensive. It’s okay if he wasn’t paying attention, but it kind of gives lie to the idea that he’s an ally outside of this one thing.
RalfW
@PhoenixRising:
Interesting.
I do know trans people who could pass/’go stealth’ but who choose to live out/be vocal to help build a movement.
Or, momentarliy-embarrassingly for me, who pass so well while still building the LGBTQA movement that I damn near asked a straight trans man out, thinking that because he was so active in the queer punk community that he was a gay man. Oops.
Later found out he thought I already knew he was trans b/c he’d been prominently written about in a local gay rag a few years earlier, but I’d missed all that. (Had I actually asked him for a date, I’m quite sure he would have just graciously declined. So the embarrassment was just in my own widdle head).
Donut
@celticdragonchick:
I guess the real rub, in my mind, is that you and every other trans person have every right to say, “I am ___ and I am happy as ___,” and who the fuck is anyone to say differently? You’re a woman, full stop. I ain’t in your head, and I don’t see how anyone argues with that.
The point being, who am I also to cut that off at a certain point and say, “well, these are the acceptable ways you need to work towards equality and when you do ‘X’ action, you set your self back”? You are trying to claim your human rights, and while I am entitled to my opinion, I am not entitled to tell you what to do.
Is glitter-bombing Savage wrong? I dunno. He probably deserves the concept (if not the action) on a certain level. He doesn’t deserve violence, and someone recently actually tried to do something that could have physically hurt him, from what I understand, and that’s fucked up. But anyway, I’ve read him going back to the late 80s, and some of the shit he’s said about trans people over the years was pretty messed up – BUT – he’s also come around and taken his lumps. I think he now genuinely wants to be an ally to the trans community, and he’s learning and changing. Similarly with the bi community – those folks heap all kinds of anguish on him – and he deserved a lot of it, but he’s also trying to wrap his head around their issues as well. Meanwhile, he’s also a gay man who is also conceptualizing monogamy in a different way, and trying to make his way in a world that’s hostile to him for those things.
So, I guess the point it, can’t we all just get along, as Rodney King would say?
Just kidding, but the point is, if you are going to attempt to re-vamp the way an entire culture conceptualizes gender, you can’t expect everyone else to immediately just say, “oh, ok” and get on board. I am not saying anyone here is saying that and certainly I’m not saying “don’t be militant,” but rather, be militant but be willing to take your incremental wins where you can get them, too, as you are working towards your other goals. While you don’t have to forgive transgressions (pun intended) by cissexual people, you do have to be willing to educate us while you’re kicking our asses.
So I guess I’m concluding, yeah, it’s okay to glitter-bomb Savage. The more I think about it, the more I can see it as a righteous but ultimately harmless way to express anger and frustration. But we can’t lose sight that someone needs to also pull him aside and rationally argue with him. If people were constantly throwing shit at my head, I think I’d be leery too.
kvenlander
@RalfW: You’re taking this too far. Two party system has nothing to do with the amount of limbs. A very large part of the democratic world has parliamentary systems with multiple parties and coalition governments. They don’t have 5 hands over there.
Yes, Americans have a tendency to see issues as polarized. I would almost say simplified. I think that comes from first past the pole elections combined with an adversarial court system.
Catsy
@Amanda in the South Bay: The sample size is irrelevant. I’m not performing a statistical analysis on either this thread or our own anecdotes. I’m not trying to establish that, say, X% of transpeople find this term offensive, nor am I trying to say that my own experiences invalidate the way anyone else feels about a given term. I think I was pretty explicit that if a term offends you, you have a right to speak up about that and expect that people have the courtesy to not use it to refer to you once they know that it bothers you.
The point I’m making is this: there is a difference between a word like “nigger”, which is explicitly and near-universally offensive to the people it describes, and a word like “tranny”, where the offensiveness of it (or lack thereof) varies from person to person and is largely a matter of personal preference.
You don’t need a sample size of 1000 or more to point that out.
Donut
@Amanda in the South Bay:
There you go. You were much more succinct than I, but that’s basically the same point I was trying to make. I’ve always said about Obama, for example, that I will do everything I can to reelect him, because he’s far better than the alternative, but at the same time I reserve the right to criticize him.
In general terms, it’s the same as with anything else. We can all walk and chew gum at the same time. It’s completely fair to claim someone as an ally but also challenge them when you think they are off base.
Catsy
To add to my last: it also doesn’t take any kind of sample size to argue that individuals within a community should not be so arrogant as to presume to dictate to the rest of their community what terms they ought to use. And that’s really what people like this are doing, here. They’re not content to say, “this word bothers me; please call me X instead.” They are going further by saying, “this word bothers me, and it ought to bother everyone else too, even if they’re not offended by it.”
That’s wrong, regardless of what community you’re talking about. It has nothing to do with singling out transgendered people in specific; that’s just the subject of this thread.
Amanda in the South Bay
@Catsy:
Whatever. I suffer enough with low self esteem and depression to worry about what supposed allies like you think I should do and act. Seriously, like I don’t also know a lot of trans people? Or get around in the community? Jesus.
taylormattd
I know people around here like him for some reason, but Dan Savage is an asshole, period. He has long been, imo, and anti trans bigot, and he is a warmongering conservative.
Donut
@Catsy:
But how else do you expect the culture to change on a larger scale?
I could easily say, “I’m not Latino, so all this stuff the GOP presidential candidates are saying about Latinos and immigrants doesn’t offend me personally, so what’s the big deal.”
I admittedly have a hard time wrapping my head around trans issues because, well, I’m not trans, but I don’t see how it’s justifiable for me to tell a person not to present their thoughts in a particular way, when you are talking about their innate rights as a human being.
Of course, one can always go too far, but the threat of going too far sometimes makes people think about what they are willing to accept. It’s only been 40-41 years, just before I was born, where gender and sexuality issues have been part of the public conversation. It took us, as a distinct American culture, centuries just to extend the voting franchise to people of African ancestry, not to mention women. A lot of threats and a lot of “going to far” was involved in making that happen.
BethanyAnne
I’m late to the thread as always, but another trans woman here. I spend enough time sorting out my own head that I don’t really worry much about the language that others use. *shrug* I guess my take is that Savage seems pretty friendly to the cause; go glitterbomb Santorum, whydoncha?
Water balloon
I find it difficult to conceptualize the difference between sex and gender, but so what? I find lots of things difficult to conceptualize, as my many labored conversations with my physicist friend show. I take other people’s word for what their lived experience is.
As for Dan Savage, he’s usually very stupid and self justifying when he talks about bisexuals, so I can only imagine how obtuse he can be on trans issues. I’m not big on glitter bombing though, but then again I was less than sympathetic to gay activists protesting Obama. That seemed just as counterproductive..
Todd Dugdale
The GLBT community is turning out to be fairly lousy ally for progressives and Democrats. Their default mode seems to be to hold their breath or threaten to stomp off if they don’t get their way, like with DADT repeal.
What I’m seeing right now in the early organising against the SSM Amendment to the MN Constitution is rank complacency from the GLBT community here. There are notable and outspoken activists, to be sure, but most seem to think the Amendment’s rejection is a slam dunk. Polling shows it’s a toss-up at best. And worst of all, in discussions over the possibility of failure, the attitude in general seems to be that a loss would just another example of the Democrats “failing them”. As if Democrats control the outcome of a statewide referendum.
So now I have to ask myself if I really want to spend dozens of hours canvassing for some smug assholes who aren’t even willing to stand up for their own civil rights, and who will just find another issue to threaten progressives with – even if we do succeed.
Democratic politics is a coalition effort. You don’t get everything you want. I certainly never have. We have to choose our battles carefully.
Catsy
@Amanda in the South Bay: Seems like you’re intent on reading far more into what I’m saying than I’ve actually written. There’s nothing I can do about it if you can’t or won’t distinguish between 1) arguing that individuals should not conflate “this offends me personally” with “this is inherently offensive to everyone in the entire community of which I’m a part even though others in that community disagree” and 2) arguing (which I haven’t) that my limited experiences mean I know what’s best for transpeople even though I’m not one. Especially since I’ve repeatedly gone out of my way to express that I unequivocally support a person’s right to speak up when something offends them and expect others to have the courtesy to not do it again once they know.
I do not have the energy today to deal with people who are bound and determined to be offended. I sympathize with your position, but I am not your enemy and I refuse to be your scapegoat for whatever’s pissing you off.
Signing off to go spend quality time with a book and some NyQuil.
Mnemosyne
@Todd Dugdale:
Tell them to take a look at the history of Prop 8 in California. It went from polling showing a slam-dunk defeat for the proposition in the summer of 2008 to winning at the polls by a handy margin within the course of a few months.
And the biggest reason for that loss was that the “No on 8” campaign was completely fucked up. I really regret donating money to them since they decided to spend it on ads that essentially said, “It’s okay to hate gay people as long as you let us get married.” They didn’t even bother trying to draw parallels to anti-miscegenation laws until a few weeks before the election, which by that point was too little, too late.
If a state as blue as California can pass a proposition banning gay marriage (for the second time!), I guarantee you that Minnesota can do it, too.
kc
At least they didn’t santorum-bomb him.
Heliopause
This is an absolutely hilarious thing to read on Balloon Juice.
Dr. Loveless
@Todd Dugdale:
In other words, we’ve learned nothing from Prop. 8. Wonderful.
rageahol
@celticdragonchick:
well, dig into the anthropological literature on gender and you’ll find that it’s a bit more complex than that.
And frankly, I’m pretty ok with this kind of “inreach.” Do you think that if they glitterbombed someone who not only hates trans-folks but also cisgendered queerfolk would really give a shit which member of their chosen hate-target happened to glitterbomb them? More importantly, do you think that this particular subset of activists would be properly identified as trans in the media accounts of the incident? Because I think that’s the missing element here — glitterbomb Newt Gingrich and the media just thinks you’re garden variety LGBT activists, rather than agitating for recognition of a particular subset of that.
I mean, yall seem to piss and moan whenever someone tries to move the overton window, whether that is by folks nominally on “your side” or by “the other side”.
Alexmac
Looks like this thread is pretty dead, but another trans woman checking in (I am an avid lurker of this blog). Here are some of Dan Savage’s choice transphobic quotes that I pulled from the fuck no dan savage tumblr (with all his greatest “hits”). The italics are commentary and not part of the quotation.
Gustopher
Being transphobic is a problem now?
I support them politically, I want them to have equal rights, I treat them with the basic respect that a human being deserves, I’ll use whatever pronoun the individual prefers, and I’ll use whatever word they want to describe them as a group if they would just let me know what it is, but I’m not allowed to fear them?
They do snippy-snip-snip to the naughty bits! That’s terrifying! I’m not comfortable getting a cat neutered, and these are actual human beings doing even more to their naughty bits! And the deep need they must feel to do that — eesh, that’s a bit scary too. I can’t even commit to boxers or briefs.
Truthfully, the transgender make me a little uncomfortable, and that’s my problem, not theirs. I support their rights, I think gender altering surgery should be covered by insurance, I’m not going to discriminate against them in job interviews, I want them to be able to marry whoever they want wherever they are in their conversion, but they do scare me.
I’d really prefer if people stopped lumping in the transphobic with the bigots. I’ll stop using the word “tranny” since it is apparently offensive, but don’t lump me in with the bigots, just call them bigots and be done with them.
Alexmac
okay so now I get all the FYWP I see around here. The 2nd block quote should include the lines beginning with Of course.
Alexmac
Sigh. now the first post is in mod hell.
`qaZS
@c u n d gulag:
Steve Benen is at The Maddow Blog
But here’s a direct link to Steve’s first post. Since it was a post from Friday, it has moved off the front page:
http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/?nvo=0&3914453|a|n|30|1|t|a|0=10
I will try to be more patient with Ed Kilgore. His topics seem okay, but I find his analysis to be lacking, or uninteresting, or something. But I will try to be patient.
Warren Terra
I’m not well informed on these issues, but I’m pretty sure anyone glitterbombing Dan Savage for being too much of a reactionary prude is not being productive. Still, the follow-up to the first incident, part of The Stranger‘ fabulous annual Regrets Issue, is hilarious:
On the other hand, New Hampshire perennial farce-candidate Vermin Supreme’s lunatic speech and then glitterbombing of genuine homophobe Randall Terry is just fine in my book.
WaterGirl
Okay, 2 comments in moderation now. It turns out that my “helpful” puppy stepped on my keyboard and changed my screen name while I was typing the original message, so that’s what must have triggered moderation. Is there any way to change my screen name back to WaterGirl in the reply to c u n d gulag, and delete the second message?
I am so sorry for the inconvenience, but my puppy could care less!
Mark
@Amanda in the South Bay: btw, I fucking *hate* the word ‘cis’. And I think my reaction is about as positive as you could get from anyone I know.
You want to talk about one group deciding what another group should be called?
Alexmac
I am strongly opposed to people calling me white. I am normal its those others who aren’t/s
ETA: that was directed to mark
Mark
@Alexmac: Too bad what you wrote doesn’t make any sense.
You don’t decide what I call myself. That was the whole point of this discussion.
Alexmac
The point is that names like black or gay or disabled all refer to the ways that people are different from the norm. This privileges the majority who are “normal” or unmarked. By marking the dominant group as say white, straight or able bodied it make it just one of the ways people could be and helps to destigmatize the marked group. cis is just the opposite of trans in latin. It doesn’t connote any value in the way trans versus not-trans does.
Arundel
I’m gay, and strongly dislike glitterbombing. And pie throwing, etc. James Wolcott called it symbolic violence, symbolic assassination. It’s counterproductive.
Fucen Pneumatic Fuck Wrench Tarmal
i wonder when the asexuals will start glitterbombing people.
Cain
@RalfW:
I think it comes down to when we talk about sex we talk about male and female and it’s various combination. When we talk about love then there should be on constraining frame on what that is as it pertains to species?
Amanda in the South Bay
That’s not quite the issue at hand, though. Unless by “reactionary prude” you mean “being gay doesn’t give you an excuse to say stupid shit about trans people and bisexuals.”
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@Amanda in the South Bay: With the addendum, “If you do, we will assault you, because when you’re morally right you’re allowed to assault people.”
NJade
Here’s me, yet another trans lurker posting for the first time for no apparent reason but to comment on this story.
And here’s the thing.
As a Jewish person, I expect that you will understand that I will be offended when you use one of the regular derogatory slurs that come our way. And if I complained about a public personality who used such a term, even if that person was noted as an ally to Jewish causes, you would not think me overreacting to complain (and we Jews can complain with the best of them!). If we latke bombed the person, you might even find some humor in it.
But if I, as a trans person, take offense to a word that is a known slur, especially in the LGBT community, by a public persona who because of his public status as a Gay activist, should seem to be a trans ally but really what has he done to define himself as such…but even if he was, his use of the derogatory term (oh, and it is. And if you think it’s not, you haven’t paid attention to the evolution of language where even words that were once not considered pejorative become so through common acceptance and use of the word as a slur) will result in complaints. And a humorous response, such as a random glittering, does no more than make a man sparkly to remind him that he has, perhaps, offended others. There are worse things than being sparkly, imho. They could have thrown santorum on him.
Or used Google to make his name synonymous with something repulsive because, as Baron J of K says, when you’re morally right, you can assault people.
Tlazolteotl
@Brighidg: my thoughts exactly
Cowbelle
This kind of thread reminds me why trans people can only count on being shat on by the so-called liberals of places like Balloon Juice.
Every now and then I start to feel part of this community, and then the rest of you open your traps and have a thread like this, and I realize, no, you don’t really want people like me around at all. No more than the Right does.
Turbulence
I gotta say, the thought of Dan Savage being subject to “symbolic violence” sits quite well with me. He was thrilled to advocate for a war that killed a million Iraqis with, you know, not so symbolic violence, so try as I might, I can’t even squeeze out a single tear at the thought of someone throwing glitter on him.
AxelFoley
@Cowbelle:
You know what this thread needs?
More cowbell.
Ok, you know I had to say it. ;)
Vlad
@Brighidg:
Dan Savage is none of those things, and if you think that he is, you’re too stupid to be trusted with a task as complicated as reading, and should get someone to put foam around all the blunt objects in your immediate vicinity so you don’t have the opportunity to do serious injury to yourself.
Vlad
@Mark: Agreed. Anyone who tries to force a stupid-sounding label like “cisgendered” onto me is getting a punch in the nose. If you want me to deal with you using your own chosen terms, fine, but you owe me the same consideration.
Vlad
Since a lot of the people in this thread apparently don’t know (or don’t care about) the context, the most recent time that Savage was glitter-bombed, it was at a public Q&A session, where he was halfway through an explanation of why you shouldn’t use the word “shemale” anymore because a lot of trans-people find it offensive, in response to a member of the audience who had used it in a question. Whereupon the glitter-bombing moron in the crowd interrupts his pro-trans message to dump glitter on him and throw a glass vase at his head. So instead of hearing a respected authority say that there’s nothing wrong with being sexually interested in trans people and explain that some terms for trans people are more respectful than others, the audience got to see a self-proclaimed trans activist confirming stereotypes and displaying the maturity of a five-year-old. Super!
But I’m sure that it’s much more productive to focus on something that Savage wrote back in 2003 and has since repudiated than it is to consider his actual current positions on the issue.
NJade
So, Vlad & Mark, you take offense to a label being applied to you that you did not agree to? All cisgendered means is that you have brain/body congruence when it comes to your gender. There is nothing inherently wrong or insulting in this appellation. It’s simply a statement of fact and it applies to you even if it doesn’t define the totality of you. And chances are, you will never ever have to use it to define yourself. It is most likely a given for you.
But here’s the thing for trans people. In defining ourselves as other than cisgendered, we need a simpler term for rational discussion rather than trans and those who were fortunate enough not to be born trans. “Normal people” does not apply because, well, that is, in some ways, more insulting to all parties involved than cisgendered or trans.
But please, you tell me how you would like me to identify you given your lack of body/brain gender incongruence and I will use that term instead.
Herbal Infusion Bagger
“As we Scots might say: Cead Mile Failte, or “ten thousand greetings!”
Sin gaeilige cosuil na teanga as na hEireann. In hAbla, duirt siad “ceud mile failte”.
Mar sin, failte roibh, mna nua.
Herbal Infusion Bagger
“I am an American of Scottish descent (I am a member of the Clan Douglas Society of North America). An awful lot of folks in the Scottish diaspora get really involved in the independence issue”
You ever run into a transwoman (I think from Oregon) called Danielle aka “Morrigan” who was big into her Irish/Celtic heritage, a Marxist supporter of the Irish Republican Socialist Party (the political wing of the terrorist INLA) and was a Wiccan priestess to boot? She used to hang around soc.culture.irish on USENET.*
Nice lady, if a bit clueless about actual irish politics and lacking your discretion of “I don’t have a dog in this fight”.
Herbal Infusion Bagger
“I’ve long since gotten used to the idea that cis (and I do like that word) allies, especially queer people, are just going to fuck it up when it comes to trans issues.”
Shifts in what language a community appropriate are going to be difficult for allies to keep up with, and there may be lapses back to outmoded terms, at least until a community gets sufficient agency to set its own terms.
Think of the shifts in language with the disabled: cripple, handicapped, invalid, special needs.
Or with African-americans, with the shift from colored to negro to black to AA.
Plus you’re got the fact that language that’s acceptable in some parts of the community (per Alexandra above) aren’t in others, and that terms that were OK (apparently) a few years back are, because of the pr0n industry, now deemed offensive.
So, yeah, us cis-gendered* are going to f**k it up.
[Personally, I love that terminology from organic chemistry has been adopted into gender politics. Alkenes are sexy, folks]