Play that Funky Music
For the next nine months, we are going to be treated to 2008’s greatest hits. Everything from “Yes Man, He’s My Kenyan,” to “Goddamn America, The Jeremiah Wright Song,” to “Black Genocide, Don’t Do It,” to “Secret Muslims, Yes That’s What We Are” to “Mommas Don’t Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Liberals Who Abort Babies,” to “My Sharia,” to “Half-Black is Too Black, But Not Black Enough,” to “Hawaii Ain’t No State I Ever Heard Of.”
Today on Morning Joe, Franklin Graham, son of television evangeloon Billy Graham, lifted up his voice and sang the Secret Muslim Song.
Apparently, Baby Graham doesn’t believe President Obama is a Christian, but rather some Christian-Muslim hybrid:
Graham, throughout the interview, repeatedly said he didn’t know if President Obama was a Christian.
“I asked him when he was running… how he came to faith in Christ. He said that he was working in the South Side of Chicago in the community and they asked him — the community — asked him what church he went to, and he said ‘I don’t go to church.’ They said, ‘If you’re going to work in the community, you have to join one of our churches.’ And of course, he joined Reverend Jeremiah’s church. So that’s what his answer to my question was.”
“So therefore, by your definition, he’s not a Christian,” Geist said.
“You have to ask him,” Graham said. “I cannot answer that question for anybody.”
Mike Barnicle then asked why Graham couldn’t just say, “Yeah, I believe he’s a Christian,” in light of him saying he is, going to church, and practicing his faith.
“I accept him as what he says. If he says he’s a Christian, I accept that, I’m not going to say he’s not,” Graham said. “All I know is what Jesus Christ has done in my heart and how he’s changed my life.”
Graham also explained how the Muslim world sees President Obama as a Muslim, but he doesn’t believe he’s a Muslim. He did stop short of categorically saying he wasn’t a Muslim. “I can’t say categorically because Islam has gotten a free pass under Obama,” Graham said, pointing out the Christian minorities throughout the entire world coming under attack by Muslims, especially after the Arab Spring.
Graham went on to babble and make exactly no sense at all. His claims boil down to this:
- Rick Santorum is a Christian because Rick Santorum says he is, and besides, you can just tell;
- Newt Gingrich is a Christian because Newt Gingrich says he is and even though he was married a bunch, he was really nice about it and confessed and stuff;
- Mitt Romney isn’t a Christian even though Mitt Romney says he is a Christian because Mormons aren’t Christians no matter how much they claim they are; and
- President Obama is too black to be much of anything.
Some of the most heated moments came when the interview appeared to be over. After asking how his father, the Rev. Billy Graham, was doing, Geist said, “just one more question.” He asked if Graham considered Rick Santorum a Christian, and set off a four-minute exchange between Graham and the panel about the varying degrees of Christianity of the GOP candidates and President Obama.
“His values are so clear on moral issues,” Graham said on Santorum. “No question about it.”
“[That’s] an amazing double standard that you just applied,” an incredulous Heilemann said. “Your reaction to the difference — The question about Rick Santorum and President Obama, I think, just exposes an incredible double standard you’re applying to those people. They’re exactly the same situation!”
“No, I asked President Obama how he came to faith in Christ and he said, ‘I don’t go to church,’” Graham replied.
“Have you had that conversation with Rick Santorum?” Heilemann asked.
“I’ve talked to Rick Santorum, yes.”
“And he was just more persuasive to you?”
“I think so,” Graham said. “But you have to look at what a person does with his life. Anyone can say he’s a Christian. But you look at [how] do they live? Where do they go? And act? Listen, Obama is a nice man, I’ve met him on several occasions–”
“But you think he behaves in an un-Christian way,” Heilemann interrupted.
“No, he is a nice man. And his wife is a class act and their kids are class — You can’t help but like them,” Graham said. “So I have no idea what he really believes and I really don’t have any idea other than what Rick Santorum stands for or what he really believes.”
“What about Mitt Romney?” Wagner asked.
“I like him,”
“Is he a Christian?”
“He’s a Mormon.”
“He says he’s part of the Judeo Christian faith, do you take him at his word?”
“Most Christians would not recognize Mormonism as part of the Christian faith.”
“So he is not a Christian…”
“I’m just saying most Christians would not recognize Mormonism. Of course they believe in Jesus Christ, but they have a lot of other things that they believe in, too, that we don’t accept theologically,” Graham explained. He then added that Romney, “would be a good President if he were the nomination, because I think the man has got the ability. He’s got the strength, business-wise, political-wise — he’s a sharp guy, and he’s proven himself. Any one of these candidates–Newt Gingrich, all of them. Now, newt’s been married several times, he’s had those issues, but he could make a good candidate. And I think Newt is a Christian…at least he told me he is.”
“So Newt Gingrich is a Christian,” an exasperated Geist asked, “but you’re not sure that President Obama is!”
Silly Geist. It doesn’t matter if President Obama is Christian or Muslim. He hates America and that’s the real crime here. Plus, his middle name is “Hussein.” What’s up with that?
[via Mediaite]
[cross-posted at ABLC]
WereBear
There’s something about this President that really bothers the Confederate Party.
Maybe one of these days they will tell us what it is.
Villago Delenda Est
I renew my call to toss Franklin Graham into an arena filled with starving lions who could use the additional protein and fat in their diets, but probably don’t need the moron prions so remove what little brain there is before feeding, thank you.
Hunter Gathers
This is going to be the Caddyshack 2 of election campaigns.
Comrade Dread
The interviewer probably should have followed up that answer with a question about the secret Muslim faith of George W. Bush since he too would qualify by Graham’s standard, as he did jack all to stop the purging of the Christian community in Iraq after heedlessly rushing in and destroying the institutions of government that were restraining the sectarian impulses in the people.
Bruce S
Franklin Graham is a lot like Mitt Romney in that he’s not half the man his father was. I didn’t much agree with Billy Graham’s fundamentalist theology, but at least most of the time as a public figure he wasn’t the mean-spirited, arrogant prick his son obviously is and he had the good sense to keep some of the really stupid speculative shit he might have thought privately to himself. Much more of a “class act” and a “nice man” than this total dip-shit of a son.
Brachiator
WTF? Apparently, I missed that poll.
TooManyJens
It is simply not acceptable to Franklin Graham and people like him for others not to be right-wing Christians. That’s all this is. The Girl Scouts are evil because they’re not right-wing Christians. The President is suspect because he’s not a right-wing Christian (not that I think that’s the only reason they find him suspect). I’m not talking about theology, but about belonging to their club and affirming its supremacy, which is why, say, Newt Gingrich is acceptable to them.
If you’re not one of them you ain’t shit. And you’re fair game. Period.
Raven
I’m flying over the conitnental divde of stupidy!
Linda Featheringill
Mr. Graham, son of Billy Graham, is not to be believed and probably should not be listened to.
The elder Graham seemed to believe what he said. He may have been wrong but he wasn’t lying.
The younger Graham is an opportunist, saying whatever and whenever in order to profit from the situation. He’s been that way for years.
So Franklin Graham probably figured that this gig on Morning Ho would be a good time to drag out this particular song and dance. I mean, why else would they invite him to be on the show? To seek spiritual guidance? Puleeze!
I think that if Franklin is not being a lying scumbag, he is seriously guilty of hubris. Did God die while I wasn’t looking and leave Franklin in charge of separating the sheep from the goats? Really?
JPL
The President is a Mormon in waiting isn’t he? The church baptized his mother after she died so I guess he is a Christian, Mormon Muslim. Maybe the Mormon Church will baptize Franklin even before he dies.
@WereBear: Good point!
Villago Delenda Est
@Brachiator:
It was in the Mecca Daily Jihadi in May 2011. Can’t understand why you missed it.
Violet
Wow. That sort of exchange still has the ability to shock me, even though I know what the modern Christianist GOP is all about.
Bulworth
(snip)
So, in the first quote, Graham says Obama, when he was younger and a community organizer in Chicago, told a community group there that he “didn’t go to church.”
In the second quote Graham says Obama told him–Graham–that he “didn’t go to church.”
Moran asshat.
Bruce S
#4 Comrade Dread – Not to mention Bush’s using trillions of U$ $$$ and expending the lives of thousands of GIs to give Iran the upper hand, of all external powers, in Iraq and consequently the entire Persian Gulf. Iran won that war, thanks to W and his genius neo-con advisory board.
Brachiator
@Bruce S:
The ancient Greeks had a word for people like this.
Epigone, A second-rate imitator or follower. A weak imitation of the real thing.
Suffern ACE
Hmmm. The president didn’t offer the proper testimony. He’s getting the same treatment that the Lutherans or Moravians get when they don’t follow along with that “My own little walk with Jesus and now I cry and now let’s pray together.”
pseudonymous in nc
Remember, that’s the same Franklin Graham who ignored his mother’s wishes to be buried near her home and instead turned her grave into a tourist attraction at the Billy Graham theme park in Charlotte.
Linda Featheringill
@WereBear:
:-)
liberal
I haven’t read anything about this, so I have no opinion, but anyone have any take on the claim that gasoline prices are rising more than is seasonally normal cuz the oil companies want Obama out of office?
valdemar
How do we know young Mr Graham isn’t a secret Buddhist? I mean, just because he can mouth a few Biblical verses? Shit, Richard Dawkins knows his Bible. Oh no, that’s right – by their bigotry shall ye know them. The real mark of a ‘Christian’ in modern America is fear, contempt and hatred toward all the right minority (and, in the case of women) majority groups. Obama fails that test.
Comrade Dread
Ironic, because given the nature of Rick’s comments about Protestants, it would seem that Rick doesn’t share that opinion of Graham.
Rawk Chawk
It IS pretty hilariously transparent how Bots gave Obama a complete pass on the Jeremiah Wright dustup.
I still have no problem with anything Wright preached or said about the U.S. or anything else; all sounds pretty accurate to me.
The bogus part is how Obama denied and ditched his spiritual mentor, without a moment’s hesitation, for perceived political gain.
Such profound loyalty and integrity has rarely been seen on the national stage! Change!
If the tables were turned and a Republican did the same, Bots would come unglued.
But then intellectual/moral/philosophical consistency is not a Bot trait; something they have in common with the insane far right.
28 Percent
Every time they get behind a microphone, they stand in front of their Freak Flag.
Never seen an election year before when they had so little self-control about keeping that fucker furled. The next six months are going to be fun.
MattF
“They’re nice people. Too bad they’re going to Hell.”
Dan
Why does this disgusting bigot have any sort of crediblity whatsoever?
Cris (without an H)
DO THEY SPEAK ENGLISH IN HAWAII?!?
Chyron HR
@Rawk Chawk:
I love that you’re sitting at your computer soiling yourself in rage at random offenses committed by President Obama, but you don’t for a second think that you might have something in common with the insane far right–heavens, no!
Brachiator
@Villago Delenda Est:
Oh, yeah. I was avoiding batshit crazy stuff that month.
You know who else was a community organizer who didn’t go to church?
Benjamin Franklin
We’ve become Iran. We thought we could make instant breakfast democrats out of the culture of Islam, but they’ve made us more like them.
They have schisms within their core beliefs fighting over the correct method for practice, and doctrine. Then there are the Greens, and secular Muslims caught up in the verbal and physical violence.
Same smell in the good ol’ USA.
Paul in KY
@Villago Delenda Est: I wouldn’t want the lions to injure themselves while possibly fighting among themselves over his entrails.
How about one starving lion? That should do the trick. Might be more entertaining too.
Satanicpanic
Just goes to show you that no matter how simply you write something like The First Amendment there will always be that dummy who does not understand it.
Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.)
This is one of the things I get so fucking sick unto death of. Fuck. “Moral issues”. And when he says, “moral issues,” all he means is abortion and gayness and lesbianicity and abortion and gayness and gayness and gayness and gayness and gayness and gayness and gayness and maybe birth control. I don’t understand this. I never have. To me, poverty is kind of a “moral issue”. When people die needlessly because they can’t afford to get help froma doctor, that’s kind of a “moral issue” to me. When we start a war for no good reason that leads to the deaths of tens of thousands of people, that’s a “maoral issue”. When my country takes to torturing people, when workers get treated like slaves, when we let corporations run over people to make a few more dollars, all these are “moral issues”, at least as I see it. What kind of “moralty” does Graham follow that the actual welfare of actual people struggling to get by means less than that we should keep gays from having weddings? How deeply vile is that?
Bruce S
#21 Comrade Dread – Franklin Graham is hardly a “mainline Protestant.” Rest assured he’s insane enough for Ricky’s “inclusiveness” of the theologically bat-shit crazy who treat the Bible as if it were some form of transcription – which, of course, flies in the face of all known scholarship on these texts. These are very stupid (“pathological” is probably a better word) people whose “faith” is an exercise in the crudest reductionism and the most extravagant self-regard.
Brachiator
@Rawk Chawk:
Did you come up with this inanity yourself, or did you have help?
Bulworth
Yeah, because, wait, whut?
matryoshka
@Suffern ACE: Exactly right. There is a call-and-response script that fundies use with tribal members, and Obama didn’t hand over the story of the moment when Christ entered his heart. That’s what Graham wanted.
Cris (without an H)
I asked Kirk Cameron how he came to faith in Christ and he said “I didn’t believe in God. I was just too smart to believe in a fairy tale like that.” So see, Kirk Cameron is a fuckin atheist
some guy
does Franklin Graham fit Sanatorium’s definition of what a Christian is, or does he fall into the “Going Straight to Hell” category. hard to keep score in the game of Heretic/Not a heretic these days.
Zandar
So he’s a Chruslim who practices Chrislam.
Righty-O.
Paul in KY
@JPL: He could be a ‘Mormlin’. Take the most freaky stuff of Mormonism & Islam & combine them.
1) Prays 6 times a day to SLC.
2) Can have up to 2 1/2 wives
3) Gives alms to the Boy Scouts
4) Believes in concept of ‘Jimmerhad’.
etc, etc.
dead existentialist
@Cris (without an H): What?
danimal
Deception and wordplay are just a form of lying. If it sounds like I’m challenging Rev. Franklin Graham’s morality, it’s because I am. Unfortunately, liars like Franklin Graham are endemic in the modern American church.
If Rev. Graham is interested in President Obama’s Christian testimony, I’m here to be the first to introduce him to source material. It’s really hard to find these things out; it takes hours, or at least seconds, to find them. Unless you are trying to deceive, deflect and confuse people, of course.
MikeJ
Just ask Osama bin Laden.
Paul in KY
@Comrade Dread: That is funny. Rih would piously say that all the misguided protestants will unfortunately burn in the Lake of Fire ™ unless they return to the Mother Church.
Man, it would be fun to get those 2 on the same show & explore that.
rikryah
That’s so priceless, ABL, you really need to find a way to put this in every post about POTUS.
Paul in KY
@Brachiator: Ghandi?
jackmac
@Hunter Gathers” This is going to be the Caddyshack 2 of election campaigns:
Who gets to play the Jackie Mason role?
Chris
HOLY FUCKING FUCK.
I’m a politics junkie, and I’ve never read ANYTHING that was more full of equivocation, maybe-I-mean-this-maybe-I-don’t and other kind of bullshit than that Franklin Graham thing.
geg6
@Rawk Chawk:
Wow. This is pretty much industrial grade stupid with a side dish of lack of self-awareness.
As for your stupid use of the word “Bots,” to describe BJers, I must ask…is that meant to smear us as lovers of the Romneybot or as O-bots? And may I ask just who you think you’re voting for in November? Just so I can be sure you are what I think you are.
Commenting at Balloon Juice since 1937
I’m not sure Franklin Graham is a human being. I was told he is a cracker.
Cris (without an H)
This is so true. The Born Again sects are insistent on emphasizing their “personal relationship to Christ” to a degree that is distasteful even to other, more personally reserved Christians.
Zifnab
@WereBear:
You know, it’s easy to say this is about race. But in all honesty, what Graham really looks like he’s alluding to is that Obama is one of those damn dirty baby-eating atheists. That’s what his story alludes to. Obama didn’t go to church until he became a political organizer. And when he did go to church, he refused to drink deeply of the kool-aid. Now he’s President, but he’s not taking his orders directly from the nation’s assorted Jesus-spokesmen.
Frank Graham grew up in an era where everyone kissed his father’s ring. Now Santorum has kissed his ring. And Gingrich has kissed his ring. But Romney only kisses the ring of the Mormons. And Obama’s knee doesn’t bend when Graham snaps his fingers.
If Obama and Romney don’t worship the priest caste, how on earth are we supposed to believe they are Christians?
Mark S.
@Paul in KY:
That made me laugh.
WereBear
Damn. That’s cold.
Alex S.
Ok, so now we had higher gas prices, we had ‘Obama is a muslim’, now I’m waiting for the whitey tape. And what about the birth certificate?
28 Percent
@liberal: What I’ve seen doesn’t say “oil companies” – it’s speculators in oil commodities. See Taibbi for an explanation of the 2008 oil bubble. It’s a stretch to say that the level of speculation is intentionally to damage the economy. That could just be a bonus.
JCT
@Chris: The best part was the rest of the Morning Ho gang trying to get him to explain himself on some level. Yes, you morons, this is the way these crazies “think” and operate. Stop enabling them.
maya
Someone should have asked Graham which end of his soft boiled egg he usually prefers to crack. Or, if he prefers eggs to crack, at all?
Comrade Dread
@Bruce S: I think you’re being too generous.
I’ve had encounters with fundamentalist Catholics who have told me point blank that I was a hell-bound heretic even though I believed and confessed that Christ was the Son of God who died for our sins and was raised from the dead and was trying to live a Christian life.
I’ve likewise encountered many evangelicals who view Catholics as heretics and the papacy as the Whore of Babylon from Revelation.
They may be all happy that they’re voting Republicans, but it’s not all sunshine and roses.
Zifnab
@geg6:
Maybe he’s just getting all existential. As in, “Am I really having a conversation on a blog with other people, or are they all some Matrix-style invention of humanity – a politically inclined Turing-test level Cleverbot – programmed to trick us into agreeing with it?”
Patricia Kayden
@Bruce S: I agree with you. I have no problem with Papa Graham, but the son is a lush.
And by the way, I don’t believe that Sonnyboy Graham is a Christian either. So there.
Satanicpanic
@Rawk Chawk: I don’t think any adult needs a “spiritual mentor” so I couldn’t care less. When his campaign started he probably ditched his barber and his kids’ babysitter too, so what?
Cris (without an H)
don’t get rickrolled
moe99
Well, gee, Obama had such nice things to say about Franklin’s dad at the National Prayer Breakfast this Feb.
What a viper.
Martin
So here’s what I gather so far:
1) The Protestants are all up in arms that Obama isn’t adhering to the Catholic view of contraception.
2) The Protestants are all up in arms that Obama doesn’t have the formal validation of the church from birth, a notion that is generally rejected by Protestants, particularly the, obviously, born again movement.
So, basically, the entire Protestant movement in the US is getting played by a pair of Catholic Republicans into reverting back at least in form to the very Catholicism that they sought refuge from.
JPL
Is the President a Real American, a Real Christian, a Real White and a Real gas guzzler with guns on his truck…
Where’s Sarah she understands wtf, this means.
gwangung
Well, I’m glad it’s God who decides who’s a Christian and who’s not.
I mean, men got it wrong so often….
Comrade Dread
@Zifnab: Well, I think it’s also an inability to believe or reconcile that one could be a Christian, could know the bible, could try to live a life in conformity with biblical principles, and not be a conservative Republican.
Chris
@Comrade Dread:
It was my experience in college, when I dabbled in both religious communities, that the most hardcore, fanatic, Protestant-hating Catholics and the most hardcore, fanatic, Catholic-hating Protestants were also always the most reliable political right-wingers in both groups.
If they ever got their perfect liberal-free, Muslim-free, gay-free Christian Utopia, I can guess where the next Us Versus Them fault line would emerge.
scav
Fuck all, this all boils down to Obama (and the rest of the rabble) are simply “not one of us” and frankly, this isn’t scary any more. Yup. Not one of you. Deal with it. Proud of it it even. Am actively searching for the tee-shirt.
Martin
@Comrade Dread: And they fail to understand the consequence of this. Their plan was that by infiltrating the churches, they’d make more Republicans. Instead, they’re making more agnostics.
Tuffy
Osama bin Laden got a free pass under George W Bush, and McCain vowed to give him a free pass if he spent his time in Pakistan.
Suck on that, Frankie.
gnomedad
@MattF:
That’s the gateway drug, IMO. If you can believe this, you can believe anything.
Brachiator
@Zifnab:
I take your point, but it is always dicey to try to plumb the depths of fear and stupidity that is taking hold of the GOP.
Another interesting point. That Obama does not kowtow to the unofficial priest class, to the Village, or even to conventional politcal dogma appears to upset any number of people.
I think that race enters into it, but it is equally true that the GOP is busy being hoist by their own petards as they batter Mittens for being an un Christian Other.
Cassidy
@Rawk Chawk: Shorter: I’m so cool…both sides do it….vote Ron Paul!
WereBear
@Zifnab: True, a good point: but this particular angle would never have been tried on Clinton who, despite his hounddawgness, would not be accused of some strange non-Gawdly kind of religion. It’s a way of saying “different” without being overt.
amk
Is billy graham dead yet ? If yes, he must be spinning in his grave, If no, his seed (which apparently never grew into an apple) will send him there soon.
Frankensteinbeck
@TooManyJens:
Yes. It’s not JUST racism. It’s ‘Us vs. Them’. Different right wing tribalists define ‘Us’ differently. For many, being black is an automatic ‘Them’. Religion is also a big factor. Not just Christianity, but belonging to the right Christian club. Obama is not part of that club, because he openly respects other religions and, as @Zifnab pointed out, doesn’t acknowledge the right authorities.
Once you’ve declared someone Them, the Other, it doesn’t matter why anymore. If you hate them because they’re black, they’re probably Muslims too. If they’re not properly Christian, no doubt they’re anti-American commies. ‘Us vs. Them’ is an absolute, and the closest it gets to flexibility is ‘You’re temporarily Us vs. an even more alien foe’.
kc
Franklin Graham is a hateful bastard. I like Obama better knowing that he didn’t pass Graham’s religious test.
Suffern ACE
@Chris:
Which is why I think Romney leads Santorum amongst Catholic primary voters in Michigan. They’ve met a Santorum-type at some point at Church or in those church-sponsored youth groups, and have decided to take their chances with the Mormon.
MattF
@kc: I agree. “He’s not my kind of Christian” is an endorsement, IMO.
Carnacki
ABL 2.0
There was this front pager around here named Angry Black Lady. Man, I’d love to see her post about this stuff.
I mean you’re good, but she would have cranked it up to 11.
Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity
Ask Bin Laden how well his free pass is working out for him.
Comrade Dread
@WereBear: Conversely though, Clinton had easier personal targets they could aim for with his libido and allegations of corruption that they used (somewhat successfully) to paint him as a corrupt politician.
Obama, by all accounts, is a devoted family man and has been faithful; and doesn’t have any shady political baggage they can really blow up into a scandal. Not that they didn’t try.
All that’s left is to try and emphasize the “He’s not one of us” angle, and since overt racism isn’t acceptable, they’ll focus on religion, his Kenyan father, or some other thing to try and make him seem alien.
Bubblegum Tate
@Brachiator:
In one of those hilarious quirks of Wingnuttia, they fucking hate Islam (many even go so far as to insist that it’s not even a religion), but suddenly, when it comes to Obama, they become very reverential and say, “Well, according to Islam, he’s gotta be a Muslim, and we simply must accept the teaching of Islam on this matter.”
Chris
@Zifnab:
Call it identity. Some of them care whether you’re white or nonwhite, some of them care whether you’re Christian or non-Christian, some of them care about nationality and how you (or your parents, or grandparents) came by your American citizenship. (And yes, there’s a ton of overlap between all these groups).
ETA: crap, Frankenstein got there first.
Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity
@amk: In point of fact, no, but if I were in the condition he was in I’d want someone to put me out of my misery, certainly.
Fortunately, in addition to his medical woes, he’s blind and almost completely deaf, so he has no idea how his no-good shit-for-brains spawn is dragging the Graham name through the mud. I feel pretty confident in asserting that the man would probably be pretty pissed off.
Frankensteinbeck
@Brachiator:
Obama also keeps talking about government policies and how they can help people. To the Village, this is Crazy Uncle Hussein speaking in tongues again at the family reunion, and they’re really hoping nobody heard him express such a gauche and unReasonable sentiment.
Carnacki
@Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity: zing!
Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity
Santorum looks like the kind of guy who would fondle my kid’s junk while I had my head turned, trying to answer a question from his equally squicky wife, who would be in on the whole scheme.
Crystal fucking clear indeed.
wrb
@Martin:
You are a Catholic I take it.
Actually, quite arguably, the Southern Baptists ceased being Protestants in a traditional sense in 1979 and the Mormons never were.
I’d been bemused by how many of the fundies seemed to have adopted the very aspects of Catholicism that caused its rejection- materialism, the building of honking great Cathedrals, priestly authority etc- but only recently read that when the fundies took over the Southern Baptist Convention in 1978 they formally rejected the unmediated relationship with the divine (the inner light or, in the Baptist theologian Mullin’s phrase, “soul competency.”). and instituted priestly authority. From the point of view of protestant theology they are virtual Catholics. They might as well sell indulgences. Which they do, actually.
The Mormon Church is even more authoritarian.
Paul in KY
@Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity: To me, the only Repub scummo who looks even more ‘Greg Chiltonish’ than Rih is Ralph Reed.
It wouldn’t surprise me if they are lovers.
Suffern ACE
@danimal: Oh, I agree. It seems like Graham would read the autobiographies and expect the president to follow along with what was so effective in converting millions of people of the President’s generation. The testimony should be “My hippie parents ruined my life. I hit rock bottom but then found Jesus.” But he doesn’t appear to actually hate how he was raised. Or to have an experience that could be repurposed into that “rock bottom” moment that would give Graham an in. Unlike Clinton, Obama hasn’t committed enough publicized moral sins to need Graham’s forgiveness, blessing and cover.
That makes Obama all the more suspicious.
He should call Graham in and ask that they pray together for guidance on very minor sins. He should Ned Flanders him to death.
Culture of Truth
I could be wrong, but I think if the secret muslim thing was going to work, it would have worked 4 years ago. Obama’s been President for a while now, and even this asshole acknowledges he and his family have been a classy representative for our nation; more so, I might add, than his bigoted dipshit of a father.
Chris
@wrb:
Holy dogshit, for real?
How the hell was that not a bigger deal?
max
What our friend here means is that Obama did not endorse ‘accepting Jesus into his heart’ enthusiastically enough. And Obama didn’t do anything otherwise indicative of being a Christian, like say, rolling around on the ground and speaking in tongues.
As far as evangelicals are concerned you have to enthusiastic and committed and obviously, hearing about Coptic Christians getting harassed in Egypt via a FW: is obviously an indication that Obama is some kind of atheist Muslim.
I don’t think this is an anti-black thing; it’s an anti-presumed-athiest thing. That this is how Graham thinks is kind of amusing – I’m guessing ‘could fuck up a two-car parade’ is the extent of his abilities.
Those folks ain’t gonna be votin’ for no Mormon, I tell ya.
to “My Sharia,”
Brilliant! Some punk band needs to write this song quick.
max
[‘The kulturkampf is in full swing. Goodie.’]
amk
@Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity: Yeah, spawns tend do that. Look at mitt.
MikeJ
@Suffern ACE:
How many copies of the Cross and the Switchblade comic book were you given as a kid?
slag
@Suffern ACE: Excellent point.
MikeJ
@Chris:
Adrian Rogers made it rain. Once the money started coming in and more churches started becoming the size of Bellevue there was too much money in it to worry about theology.
aimai
@Rawk Chawk:
Is this some kind of joke? When did hugging your crazy pastor closer to you than your entire political life/goals in life become some kind of morality test? People’s pastors say crazy things all the time. J. Wright wasn’t Obama’s Fleiss and biggest political backer. He was actually competing with Obama to define Obama’s goals for his presidency. He was rejected as a spokesman by Obama because he wasn’t a spokesman.
aimai
Nancy
@pseudonymous in nc: There’s a Billy Graham theme park??? Really???
Chris
@max:
I’ve come to realize that you don’t “have” to do anything specific to considered Christian, in fact. It’s actually a lot simpler than that: in order to be a Christian, they have to decide that you’re a Christian. Not you. Not God. Them. It’s a country club, and you’re not invited unless they want you to be.
Brachiator
@Culture of Truth:
I agree with you. The sad thing, is that the worst wingnuts are stuck. They are consumed by their fear. Notice how they even try to keep the phony birth certificate crap alive long after it has been exposed as a feeble lie.
However, the Muslim crap is heating up again because of anxiety over the Middle East and the hot desire of warmongers to see Israel attack Iran. The Obama haters need to see him as weak or pro Muslim.
Insomniac
Where can I find these tunes? Are they on iTunes? Does youtube have them? Perhaps someone could make me a mixtape? I’d be ever so grateful. TIA.
ABL 2.0 – love it!
japa21
@Rawk Chawk: Obviously, you weren’t around in 2008 or you wouldn’t have written such an obviously empirically wrong statement. Despite being hounded to discredit Wright and to disavow him, then candidate Obama absolutely refused to do so. It wasn’t until Wright started believing he deserved some sort of celebrity status and started saying some things that were over the line that then candidate Obama said anything specifically against Wright, and then only to disavow some of the things Wright said, not the man himself.
Martin
@wrb:
Family is, so that’s what I’m most familiar with. I put LDS aside, because they’re different enough in enough respects, and they’re a minority, so any kind of grand shift there doesn’t really carry national ramifications.
I didn’t realize the Southern Baptists took that position. Interesting. When do we get a Bubba Pope? I look forward to the day when we can all wait eagerly for the fumata bianca, piped out of a competition barbecue smoker at the end of a 2 hour season finale of “America’s Next Spiritual Good Ol Boy”.
wrb
@Chris:
That there was a knock-down drag-out between the fundies and the moderates was well reported, but I at least don’t recall reading of how radical,from a historical perspective, the fundie theology was .
I mentioned a few days ago that I’d been reading Harold Bloom’s “The American Religion.” This tidbit is from it.
I don’t think that Bloom’s big thesis (that there is An American Religion, and the variants are all Gnostic, Orphic, and Enthusiastic and somehow rooted in Emerson even though Emerson despised many of them) holds together but his detailed explorations of the various home-grown creeds is fascinating. That the seemingly opposed faiths that each have a horse in this Republican race would eventually come together does follow naturally from their descriptions in the book, even though it was written 20 years ago.
Another tidbit: the Southern Baptists really were the religion of slavery. The Northern/Southern split was specifically over slavery. The Southern Baptists went on to provide most of the Confederacy’s enlisted solders.
Martin
@Brachiator:
The Muslim crap is heating up again because they’re fucking losing. When the other team is running up the score, it gets tempting to throw elbows instead of trying for touchdowns.
Schlemizel
For those of you who want to believe that Billy was a better man you may want to examine his books.
First, he was a class A ass kisser. He did not limit himself to one party but gladly kissed the ass of every President he could get his lips on.
Second, his crusades were all based on bucks. Say you wanted him to come to East ArmPit. Well that was too small he would have to have cooperation from a larger area. Next his advance men would contact all the local churches & demand to know what their weekly collection take was. They would show them records from previous crusades that showed how much revenue would increase. They had this down to a science. Week 1 would be a large increase, week 2 less & so on until after 10 weeks you would be back to your average again. They totaled up the churches 10 week windfall & and demanded a percentage of that. – AND first class travel and expenses.
This is all tax free of course.
Mark S.
Huh, I didn’t know John Ensign is a veterinarian.
If I find any more random shit on the Internet, I’ll let you all know.
Ben Cisco
@Commenting at Balloon Juice since 1937:
And not one of the good ones, neither.
Paul in KY
@max: With apologies to the late Mr. Fieger:
Oh my latest pretty law, pretty law
When you gonna give me some peace Sharia
When you make some woman cry, some woman cry
Had it coming, it’s the law Sharia
*Never gonna stop, pray it up
Such a pious mind, always get it up
For the touch of the Muslim mind
My my my i yi woo
My my my my Sharia
Be a little harsher huh, ah will ya huh,
Harsh enough to poke out my eyes Sharia
Keeping it a mystery, Imanally
Whipping down the length of my back Sharia
(Repeat *)
When you gonna order me
Gonna order me
It’s just a matter of law Sharia
Is it just piety, piety
Or is it just a thumb on my back Sharia
(Repeat *)
I’ll be here all week. Try the veal…
Paul in KY
@MikeJ: Saw that movie back then. I wanted to be a Mau Mau. They were the cool gang…
nellcote
Someone needs to ask Santorum if he puts the pope above the constitution. Ask Newt too.
Bruce S
Slemiziel – I kind of take that entrepreneurial piece and the fundamentalism for granted in his job description. I just think he had at least a bit more class and restraint as a public figure than his little boy.
Mark S.
@Schlemizel:
Wow, I guess Billy wasn’t under any illusion that his tent revivals changed any lives.
Dave
Hey. HEY. Your stupid fuckin website still is not loading recent posts. The front page URL gives me some shit from like a week ago. Your website is too shitty for me to countenance this shit!
Brachiator
@Martin:
The problem with your analogy is that there is no contest yet. The GOP is indulging in rancid pep rallies, trying to convince any who will listen that Obama, and the Democrats, are the enemies of Real America(tm).
priscianusjr
The thing about Romney being a Christian or Obama being a Christian, these are two completely different issues. Mormon theology has a number of doctrines strikingly at odds with almost anybody’s definition of Christianity. There is nothing comparable in the case of Obama. You’re right, it’s all dog whistling to suggest Obama’s a secret Muslim. So my “shorter Franklin Graham” goes like this: “Romney’s a Mormon, we’re not going to vote for him since he’s not a Christian. We’re not going to vote for Obama either, therefore Obama must be a Muslim.”
Bruce S
Comrade Dread – February 21, 2012 | 1:52 pm
Okay, I withdraw any hint of generosity toward any of these dickwads. IMHO both Santorum and Franklin are going to hell for dragging Jesus’ good name through the muck and mud of their personal pathologies and political perversities. I can play this fucking game too!
Martin
@Brachiator:
Well, the trends for the contest are setting up. They can read polls just as well as we can, and they can see that attacking Obama on the economy isn’t getting traction, nor is attacking him on foreign policy.
Yevgraf
I’ll go it one better, while showing the brilliant punditry of Townhall – apparently, Obama is the theocrat, not Santorum.
http://townhall.com/columnists/laurahollis/2012/02/21/obama_not_santorum_is_the_theocrat
The stupid is so thick, it has soaked straight through to the bone.
And remember, kids, this thing teaches at Notre Dame, that undeserving recipient of a score of undeserved Number 1 votes every. single. football. season.
Mnemosyne
@Cris (without an H):
Yep. Graham wanted Obama’s official, rehearsed “testimony” and he didn’t get it, so therefore Obama is Not a Christian.
Also, is it just me, or do they seem to be trying to set up some kind of “genetic Muslim” meme where it doesn’t matter whether or not you say you’re a Christian, if you had a Muslim parent or grandparent, you’re a Muslim? That kind of thinking reminds me of another group that decided to conflate religion and ethnicity and declare that all persons of a particular religion were somehow contaminated even if they didn’t practice it … who could that be now …
PigInZen
What a douchebag.
Mnemosyne
@Mark S.:
I did not know that either.
If he’s a halfway decent one, he and Bill Frist the cat vivisectionist must have had some interesting conversations in the Senate dining room.
MJ
@Rawk Chawk: You get a pie filter, and you get a pie filter, and you…!
bootsy
Hey if People are still wondering whether Oil Companies are involved in the speculation that’s currently driving up prices… well, it’s almost worse than that. One of the main players is Koch, who in fact almost invented the whole “own a commodity, and also speculate to raise the price of that same commodity.” Don’t ask me why that isn’t illegal. (Maybe it is?)
Hope I’m allowed to do this link
Yevgraf
Ooh my mighty awesome god, awesome god.
When you let me run it all like Sharia?
Ooh you make my motor run, my motor run.
Gunnin’ down gods enemies like Sharia
Never gonna stop, give it up.
Such a bloody mind. Always get it up for the touch
of the purer kind. My my my i yi woo. M M M My Sharia…
Come a little closer huh, ah will ya huh.
Close enough for me to judge you, like Sharia.
Keeping it a mystery gets to me
Running tingles down my tube like Sharia
Never gonna stop, give it up. Such a bloody mind.
Always get it up for the touch
of the purer kind. My my my i yi woo. M M M My Sharia…
When you gonna give it to me, give it to me.
I’ve got my wetsuits ready in time for Sharia
Is it just destiny, destiny?
Or is it just a game in my mind, Sharia?
Never gonna stop, give it up.
Such a bloody mind. Always get it up for the touch
of the purer kind. My my my i yi woo. M M M My Sharia…
Brachiator
@Mnemosyne:
Yep
pragmatism
POTUS and FLOTUS as Chicago Starr
Secret muslims, yeah that’s what we are
Trying so hard to hide the way we feel
‘Cause we both belong to someone else
But we can’t let it go ’cause what we feel
Is, oh so real, so real, so real
You and me, are we fair?
Is this cruel or do we care?
Can they tell that’s in our minds?
Maybe they’ve had secret love all of the time.
See, it’s always projection. Little Grahammy hearts Allah.
Paul in KY
@Yevgraf: Eh, Ok. Mine’s better ;-)
cmorenc
@Rawk Chawk:
Here’s a fascinating, purely speculative but nonetheless entirely plausible hypothesis. At some point in the future when Obama is no longer in office (hopefully after a second term) Jeremiah Wright is going to reveal that after it became apparent to him that Obama had no graceful path available to defuse the controversy that gravely threatened to undermine his historic candidacy, Wright finally decided to deliberately sacrifice himself by saying some things in his speech to the NAACP on April 27th 2008 that would justify and force Obama to explicitly disown him. That is what Obama did at his press conference reacting to Wright’s speech on April 29th, 2008. It’s more likely that this was a unilateral move by Rev. Wright that he did not coordinate with Obama or his campaign, although it wouldn’t be surprising if it turns out that some time afterward, Wright privately communicated at least a subtle, but mutually knowing wink wink to Obama in some fashion. Wright was at the end of his ministerial career and about to retire anyway, and really had nothing to lose, except he may have decided that if Obama lost, he Rev. Wright did not want to forever be known as the cause of the undoing of a good man who otherwise would have been very likely to become the first black President. Some might argue that Rev. Wright instead was motivated by feckless egotism in his provocative NAACP speech, but his egotism works the other way too: it’s just as likely that Wright’s ego motivated him to try to do something to avoid being blamed for derailing Obama’s candidacy, and Wright realized there was no positive path left to him to accomplish this, whether this was fair or not.
Someday, we’ll likely find out if this speculative hypothesis is indeed true, but if so it will be at a time long past when the revelation could any longer be harmful to Obama politically.
xian
@japa21: at which point he gave the most important speech on race of my adult lifetime.
Schlemizel
@Dave:
Dave, calm down & take slow, deep breaths. This has been discussed previously. for some reason you really need the www part in the url.
go to http://www.balloon-juice.com it all will be well.
Schlemizel
@Schlemizel:
Oh, and Davie – if it is that terrible why come here. We don’t need you, don’t want you and see no point in your “posting”
Upper West
@Bruce S: I wonder what Billy thinks of Franklin? Pride in his success? Horror at his bigotry? Both?
Has anyone ever seen the ’60s dialogue between Bill Graham and Woody Allen?
What’s your worst sin?
Woody: Impure thoughts about Art Linkletter.
Billy: Idolatry is the worst — though I never did it.
pseudonymous in nc
@Nancy: It’s officially the “Billy Graham Library”, but it’s a tacky Cracker Barrel-meets-Disney thing — a classic example of how Franklin Graham runs the operation to cash in on his parents.
That he chose to browbeat his father and his dying mother into having her final resting place there — after she’d repeatedly insisted on being buried out west, near her home — just adds to the ick factor.
What a fucker he is.
pseudonymous in nc
And I’m not impressed with the way that Billy (or someone speaking on his behalf) made the statement about where Ruth was to be buried only after she slipped into a coma:
Another Halocene Human
Yeah, Xtians and Jews fared SO WELL in Iraq after the US invasion.
So tired of these f*cking hypocrites.
And Egypt’s Xtians lost their livelihoods during the swine flu epidemic, when the government at the time (yes, the “preferable”, “serious” puppet authoritarian strongman gov’t) had their pigs slaughtered–well before Tahrir Square.
I’m also of the understanding that Egyptian Muslims were being paid to evangelize Copts, I guess from some religious fund.
PurpleGirl
@Dave: Then stop coming by here. I’m not having problems with the page loading. Maybe it’s your machine…
moderateindy
@Horrendo Slapp (formerly Jimperson Zibb, Duncan Dönitz, Otto Graf von Pfmidtnöchtler-Pízsmőgy, Mumphrey, et al.):
Come now, don’t you realize that Jeebus loves capitalism and self-reliance? He would never hang out with the dregs of society, like lepers and whores. He only liked good moral folks like the Pharisees, although Graham and his ilk would probably qualify as Sadducees. Oh how Jeebus would gush about men that would pray loudly and proudly for all to see. Men like Rick Santorum who you can just tell is a good Christian Merkun.
Seriously, if you’re going to call yourself a Christian, shouldn’t you actually use the teachings of Christ as the main part of your philosophy? Instead they use a letter written by a guy, who had never met Jesus, to a bunch of folks at a church, expressing his opinion on what he believes Jesus would think about teh gays to justify what seems to be one of their core beliefs, that the fags are ruining this country.
SiubhanDuinne
@Mnemosyne:
Former Georgia Governor Sonny Perdue is also a veterinarian, or was once upon a time.
Rawk Chawk
@geg6:
Who’s describing “BJers” I’m describing only the posters at BJ who put Obama’s political career above all else, ABL being their patroness.
Rawk Chawk
@Satanicpanic:
So his attendance and involvement in Wright’s church all those years was a…sham? And you’re OK with that of course. WTF?
I don’t give a shit about anyone else’s spiritual mentors or lack thereof either. But I do have a problem with public figures being liars and hypocrites and lacking integrity, all for the hope of political gain. Naturally, you’re ok with that on the dem side, but not elsewhere, yes?
Elie
I read this stuff and just smile. They have no place to go but to this silent whistle stuff — both to racism and hyperreligiosity. They got nothin. They are boxed in to their hate/tribal metaphors and there is where they will necessarily have to stay.. there is no tacking “back to the center” to win an election representing all Americans — only the tribal calls..
The remaining smarter Republicans (if they can persist), either feel they can’t or won’t stop the damage to the “brand”. Maybe they feel that their GOP is just going to have to be burned to the ground by these folk before they can reclaim it and rebuild it?
I have no idea who their nominee will be. They don’t either. In the absence of sane leadership or ideas, the inmates are rolling their poo in balls and throwing it around the room and breaking up what is left of the nice Republican furniture.
Brachiator
@Rawk Chawk:
I don’t know what Obama’s involvement with Wright’s church meant. I don’t much care. And it is not because it’s Obama. I don’t care, period. I hate Romney, but I don’t much care whether he wears magic underwear just for giggles.
You are doomed to be disappointed all your life.
JR in WVa
@Bulworth: Liars can never keep the story straight, especially if it’s a complex lie. Graham obviously mixed his stories up here, and made it obvious that the whole thing is a pack of lies.
Bless him for being so easy to trick into being an obvious liar!
West of the Cascades
@Brachiator:
Jesus DID go to church, but usually to throw the ilk of Franklin Graham and the 1% out the door …
ABL 2.0
patroness? i feel so fancy now.
mds
@max:
Wait, wait, though: Copts and the other ancient Christian sects of the Middle East don’t have an enthusiastic “born again” moment either. So do they really count as “Christian” for purposes of demonstrating Muslim oppression? And a bunch of them are even Palestinians. Since when does Franklin Graham give a fuck about Palestinians?
Kathy in St. Louis
“I asked him when he was running… how he came to faith in Christ. He said that he was working in the South Side of Chicago in the community and they asked him — the community — asked him what church he went to, and he said ‘I don’t go to church.’ They said, ‘If you’re going to work in the community, you have to join one of our churches.’ And of course, he joined Reverend Jeremiah’s church. So that’s what his answer to my question was.”
It’s a lot more than he would have gotten from most Americans who aren’t crazy religious nuts. I think the President’s answer is a lot more polite than the, “It’s none of your F>>>>in business”, that he would have gotten from me and most of the rest of the population. I have always despised this entire overly smarmy religious Graham crusade bunch. And he’s a pale imitation of the old man, which isn’t saying a whole lot.
Kathy in St. Louis
@West of the Cascades: “I asked him when he was running… how he came to faith in Christ. He said that he was working in the South Side of Chicago in the community and they asked him — the community — asked him what church he went to, and he said ‘I don’t go to church.’ They said, ‘If you’re going to work in the community, you have to join one of our churches.’ And of course, he joined Reverend Jeremiah’s church. So that’s what his answer to my question was.”
It’s a lot more than he would have gotten from most Americans who aren’t crazy religious nuts. I think the President’s answer is a lot more polite than the, “It’s none of your F>>>>in business”, that he would have gotten from me and most of the rest of the population. I have always despised this entire overly smarmy religious Graham crusade bunch. And he’s a pale imitation of the old man, which isn’t saying a whole lot.
Wilson Heath
Willie only had to be right once more on Tuesday to rise to the vaunted correctness of a broken clock. Anyone know if he made it?