There was a school shooting in Ohio today. One seventeen-year-old kid is dead. Four students are in the hospital with gunshot wounds. One kid is in custody for the shooting. And about 1,100 more Americans now know that sick feeling of being trapped in a building with an armed crazy person bent on murder. That’s just the kids who were at the school. I’m not even talking about the helpless, nauseated feeling their parents must have endured.
I know a little something about how the uninjured kids at that school felt today. Many years ago, an angry nut case walked into an office building where I was working and opened fire, killing three and wounding two more. I know what it’s like to hunker down in your “safe place,” the minutes crawling by while police conduct a room-to-room search for a madman. You whisper nervously with your scared-shitless colleagues about who is missing, who might be dead. You contemplate pissing in a trashcan because you’re afraid to leave the locked room you’re in. You watch that locked door with your heart in your throat, hoping you don’t see the handle turning or, worse yet, bullets flying through the flimsy wooden barrier.
And you know what? That kind of experience is just not so rare anymore. I bet at least a couple of you could recount similar incidents.
Tonight on the news, the usual talking heads will say the usual things, but there will be less coverage about the shooting in Ohio today since the body count must be in the double digits now to dominate a news cycle. The usual assholes will make the usual boneheaded argument about arming teachers, and the truly, deeply stupid may even suggest arming students. And we’ll forget until the next time, even those who have been there and seen that.
But the kids who were at that school today won’t forget, not for awhile anyway. I used to get angry about it. I used to wonder what kind of national psychosis could lead us to believe it’s perfectly okay to be ass-deep in unsecured weaponry and tolerate gun homicide rates that are 15-20 times higher than those of the rest of the so-called civilized world.
Oh sure, every now and then some European dude goes off his nut and commits mass murder. Pam Geller’s Norwegian fan-boy, Anders Behring Breivik, pulled off mass murder on a scale that no-doubt made our homegrown white supremacists pea-green with envy (with a little assist from US ammo clip mail order outfits).
But I don’t get angry about it anymore. Gun don’t kill people; assholes with guns kill people. The NRA won a long time ago, and this is just how it has to be. So welcome to the club, kids. It’s not so exclusive anymore.
[X-POSTED at Rumproast]
David Koch
Guns don’t kill.
It’s those darn bullets.
Mara Holbrook
I’m sorry Betty. And I’m even sorrier for those poor kids and their parents.
Xjmueller
It’s so bad that we actually do annual drills at work just for this type of situation. So sad.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
I thought it was Tuesday
Arclite
You know, shooting is fun. Shooting an AK 47 with high cap mags is fun. Shooting birdshot through old down pillows is a lot of fun.
But I’d give it all up for the safety and security I felt while living in Japan, where guns are extremely regulated, and extremely expensive. Even the registration fees run into the 1000s of dollars. Almost nobody has guns, and nobody feels the need for them. The restrictions actually gave birth to the airsoft industry in Japan, allowing folks to get their gun woodies up and strokin’ without all the death.
Comrade Colette Collaboratrice
The fact that we even have statistics like this – “worst in 11 months,” for fuck’s sake – is an indictment in itself. This is a sick society.
Linda Featheringill
Chardon, just east of the greater Cleveland metro area, is very middle class and very suburban. It doesn’t match what people might suspect in the case of troubled young people.
Of course, good genes and a financially secure family don’t mean a thing if you’re being shot at.
This ordeal was absolutely terrifying for the children at the school. I’m pretty sure the parents feel like this was the worst day ever.
My sympathy to all.
WereBear
According to the excellent book about the Columbine shooting, it’s not some bullied person who snaps; it’s someone mentally ill who doesn’t get the help they need.
It stupid of us, as a civilization, to not address that. And yet… no one ever does.
jncc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting shootings
trollhattan
@Xjmueller:
Same here–we have “active shooter” training and refreshers. My kid’s school has lockdown drills. Wayne LaPierre could turn DFH tomorrow and there’s no stuffing the gun genie back into the bottle–bottle’s way too small.
But of course, Herr LaPierre isn’t satisfied. Not one bit.
Terrible about the Ohio kids. Terrible.
Punchy
If only the kids were armed…….sigh
Arclite
@WereBear:
Also, too: Jared Lee Loughner
pragmatism
@WereBear: this shooter’s facebook ramblings may indicate some underlying illness.
copied so as not to link to Daily Caller:
In a time long since, a time of repent, The Renaissance. In a quaint lonely town, sits a man with a frown. No job. No family. No crown. His luck had run out. Lost and alone. The streets were his home. His thoughts would solely consist of “why do we exist?” His only company to confide in was the vermin in the street. He longed for only one thing, the world to bow at his feet. They too should feel his secret fear. The dismal drear. His pain had made him sincere. He was better than the rest, all those ones he detests, within their castles, so vain. Selfish and conceited. They couldn’t care less about the peasents they mistreated. They were in their own world, it was a joyous one too. That castle, she stood just to do all she could to keep the peasents at bay, not the enemy away. They had no enemies in their filthy orgy. And in her, the castles every story, was just another chamber of Lucifer’s Laboratory. The world is a sandbox for all the wretched sinners. They simply create what they want and make themselves the winners. But the true winner, he has nothing at all. Enduring the pain of waiting for that castle to fall. Through his good deeds, the rats and the fleas. He will have for what he pleads, through the eradication of disease. So, to the castle he proceeds, like an ominous breeze through the trees. “Stay back!” The Guards screamed as they were thrown to their knees. “Oh God, have mercy, please!” The castle, she gasped and then so imprisoned her breath, to the shallow confines of her fragile chest. I’m on the lamb but I ain’t no sheep. I am Death. And you have always been the sod. So repulsive and so odd. You never even deserved the presence of God, and yet, I am here. Around your cradle I plod. Came on foot, without shod. How improper, how rude. However, they shall not mind the mud on my feet if there is blood on your sheet. Now! Feel death, not just mocking you. Not just stalking you but inside of you. Wriggle and writhe. Feel smaller beneath my might. Seizure in the Pestilence that is my scythe. Die, all of you.
Anoniminous
Atlantic Story The Geography of Gun Deaths.
Here’s the conclusion, but the article is worth reading:
freelancer
@pragmatism:
Jesus, that’s some spooky shit.
Linda Featheringill
@pragmatism:
Actually good writing there. Troubled, but good.
Bubblegum Tate
Is it just me, or does the inevitable “you know what would’ve prevented this? MORE GUNS!” reaction from wingnuts make stories like this somehow even more awful?
James Gary
@freelancer:
Having once been a student in many creative-writing classes at the high-school/college-freshman level, I have to say: a lot of American adolescent males write stuff that’s indistinguishable from that. Take it as you will.
Jager
@trollhattan:But, but, but if all the kids in school had their own guns they would have been able to stop….
MaxxLange
Not that I was OK with this kind of thing before, but it has really bothered me since Va Tech, where a former coworker was killed.
And yes, there is no feeling quite like hearing from Internet Tough Guys about how they would have blasted their way to safety, before the corpse of your friend is even cold.
freelancer
@James Gary:
In High School, I was once the editor of the lit mag at an all boys Jesuit Prep school. I remember reading a LOT of dreck and some of it was indicative of mental illness, but I guess it’s been quite some time.
pragmatism
@Linda Featheringill: i couldn’t get past the troubled and/or cry for help aspects of the writing.
Jess Sane
it’s not some bullied person who snaps; it’s someone mentally ill who doesn’t get the help they need.
These are not necessarily different situations. Weird kids are bullied. It’s a very good thing my parents didn’t own guns.
magurakurin
@WereBear: see post above about Japan. Yes, mental health issues need more attention. No question. This is also true in Japan, maybe even more so. But in the meantime(and maybe forever in Japan) and in the absence of a better mental health system, the mentally ill do not have guns in Japan. People have psychotic breaks here and kill people…with a knife. Often they are wrestled to the ground before anyone is hurt. Sometimes one or two people are killed.
But in the United States….
whatever. Like the post says, the NRA won. A few dead kids now and again is the price of admission for life in the United States. If talking about the need for better mental health care eases your mind about the obvious and real dangerous of living in a country with insanely lax gun regulation…have at it.
Spaghetti Lee
@James Gary:
I was in one just a few semesters ago. Our professor asked us to summarize the plots of the stories before we wrote them, and I’d estimate 90% of them had one character dying, mostly violently. (Mine had a death, but it was an accidental drowning) He was so frustrated that he actually made a rule-no deaths in your stories. I don’t think he was worried about fueling our mental instability as overuse of a cheap way to kickstart (or stop) a plot. The class was pretty even along gender lines, for the record. Nothing quite as disturbing as that sample.
I’m only an amateur artist but I do resent the occasional assumption that dark art = damaged minds. Some of the ‘darkest’ artists I know are total clowns in real life who wouldn’t hurt a fly.
HRA
When I saw the news online, I went to the major networks to read about it. The comments in those articles were naturally pointing fingers mostly at parenting. Then it evolved to single parenting, bullying, etc. The amateur analysis with no knowledge of any real facts was ludicrous to say the least.
I do worry and try not to get too paranoid over my own location at work. We have already had 1 instance of a lock down over a student carrying a rifle in a back pack the proved to be false or he may have alluded the police and left the campus. Luckily there has been an alert system that sends a message to my work pc and cell at any imminent danger. That is what should be installed everywhere.
WereBear
@Jess Sane: Well yes, and being bullied can create incredible stress; I too, was weird and bullied.
The Depressive and the Psychopath
And each case is different; if not unique. But if someone fantasizes about control and power, the way the main actor in Columbine did; the way the guy in the tower in Texas did; they give off signals, very clear signals.
If we know what to look for. We don’t have a system that does; thanks to some of the gun culture’s misguided paranoia, and the general Wingnut contempt for all science, but especially that of the mind.
MattMinus
@Xjmueller:
Do you really believe that? Do you really think that an honest risk assessment demands everyone, or even every school, drill against a mass shooting event?
It’s horrible, but in terms of actual risk, it’s probably up there with accidentally drowning in a Spackle bucket. Let’s not act lie this is some kind of epidemic.
Linda Featheringill
@pragmatism:
Once upon a time, the creative writing of a local high school was featured in a local publication of some sort. One girl wrote some stuff that was so terribly, terribly depressed that it worried me. The next morning, I called the high school and talked to someone who wasn’t impressed with my ability to diagnose depression from a distance with only one bit of writing as evidence. But she promised to tell someone and have them talk with the girl. Dunno what happened after that.
Gex
This is why it is so important for our good Christians to write all these anti-bullying rules that exempt certain types of bullying. This way we will know that mainly gay kids will be the shooters in the future and then we can prove how evil gays are.
PeakVT
@Anoniminous: That’s interesting. I’d like to know how the mental illness and similar data was collected before I accept those correlations. The rest seems straightforward, however.
pragmatism
@Linda Featheringill: you hit on exactly what I was wondering about. how many people read that, concluded that it was disturbing yet did nothing? i’m not implying that anyone has a an obligation or duty to do something and i fully acknowledge that “butting in” may have some unintended consequences.
still, good for you for doing something.
Arclite
@Linda Featheringill:
I was going to say, in another life that writer could have channeled that into a successful career writing horror stories…
Spaghetti Lee
I think it was 2 years ago, I was in a journalism class and someone got a text that there had been a shooting in the parking garage way at the other end of campus. Our teacher went out to investigate, locked the doors, etc. Turns out it was all a hoax, which was actually used later in a journalism class to talk about how you shouldn’t believe everything you hear on twitter (yes, that’s a problem with some people). For my part, I couldn’t help but sense that on some level, people were scared and worried but were also somewhat excited to get to play a small part in a capital-t Tragedy, but maybe I’m being uncharitable. The right-wing conservative and somewhat sleazy student was the only one who was outwardly giddy and said he wished he was there covering it.
beergoggles
As an adult it’s different, it’s gotten better – as a child I understood why the kid did it. Each time some gay kid commits suicide I wonder why they didn’t take some of their bullies with him. I’m guessing that kind of thinking is what made some survive and others to finally end it all.
Also – what Gex said.
debg
My state, Kansas, is about to pass a law allowed concealed carry of licensed weapons in state buildings, including the university where I teach. Even my conservative Kansas students find this initiative frightening. And there’s nothing we can do to exempt ourselves from the requirement. If we want to monitor guns on campus, we’d have to install metal detectors at every door.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@WereBear: And read The Gift of Fear. It’s cheap, and very helpful in a variety of ways beyond the issue of school and workplace violence.
If people would read this, and pay attention, they’d understand that shootings like this don’t happen in a vacuum, and they aren’t unpredictable, at all. But folks around the potential actor(s) have to pay attention. And do something once they notice that something’s off. When people do not, these kinds of tragedies occur. I feel for the kids, their parents and school personnel.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@pragmatism: Exactly the kind of thing to which we wish (at least I do) that someone, somewhere would have paid attention.
Mark
@beergoggles: I don’t think the Columbine killers were all that different – goth kids who were tormented by country club kids for years. 99.9999% of them move on; 0.0001% are violent psychopaths who decide to kill someone. (Actually, it’s probably higher than 0.0001% since not everyone is placed under this duress.)
Cave Man
@debg:
What about gun sales, ammo? Isn’t that a vibrant sector within the economy?
Try to be more sensitive to the folks who need a 2nd amendment remedy to the nutcase with a gun.
magurakurin
sheesh. the denial of what the actual problem is in America is staggering. Yeah, if only someone had noticed how troubled they were as they were walking into the gun shop.
Here is your fucking problem.
but, yeah, by all means, carry on discussing the hidden clues in a two paragraph essay.
If only there was something we could do….
Matt McIrvin
For what it’s worth, if the Wikipedia article is accurate, the rate of these shootings seems to be gradually decreasing from the worst days of the 1990s. But it’s still way above where it was before the explosion of the mid- to late 1980s.
Suffern ACE
@Mark: If I recall correctly, they weren’t goth kids. They actually had friends.
Fwiffo
Actually, this kind of thing IS rare, and it’s becoming MORE rare. School shootings are following the same general trend of crime generally – downward. In the same way airplane crashes make nationwide headlines and car crashes do not, school shootings gain national attention BECAUSE they’re rare.
That’s not to say that we don’t have a gun problem in this country. We can do more to keep guns away from children and the mentally ill. A lot more. We ought to close the gun-show loophole. We ought to hold people responsible for failure to secure their guns if they’re used in a crime.
That doesn’t change the fact that a child is much, much, much more likely to be shot at home, by a family member, than they are by a classmate at school. They’re more likely to die flying over the handlebars of their bicycle. They’re more likely to be struck by lightning.
beergoggles
@Mark: I’m pretty sure it’s the constant bullying and tormenting that leads to the development of a psychopathic episode and not the other way around. When I was in school getting picked on by older kids, I apparently (because I don’t remember any of it) one time lost it, clawed and bit chunks off the kid despite being beaten down. Pleasantly enough for the rest of the school years no one bullied the crazy kid who can go violent on them and there were no further episodes. I’m ancient now and it’s never happened since. I’ve always been one to walk away from confrontation when I can. People aren’t that different from wild animals when u corner them (and forcing them to go to a place where they are repeatedly bullied is in effect cornering them) and people shouldn’t act surprised when they act like a cornered animal with the brain power and forethought of a human.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
The underregulation of guns sales, combined with careless ownership behavior of many purchasers is an enormous problem. But it’s still unwise not to notice signs of trouble – I assure you there were many more than just a FB posting.
WereBear (itouch)
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): That is a wonderful book!
It drives me nuts that everyone acts like “there’s nothing we can do!” sometimes, there is.
Bago
Club membership accepted
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_massacre
trollhattan
I don’t know how widely this was reported, since the girl didn’t die.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2017572191_bremerton23m.html
Too many guns, owned by too many people who have no business owning them and by the way, have kids around to scoop them up. Just great.
Amanda in the South Bay
@Linda Featheringill:
I’d be pretty freaked out if I was the student, because…its a good thing to avoid being put in the system. I don’t trust it not to fuck students up even more. Espeically when they are almost certainly innocent, and you’re playing Bill Frist to some poor student’s Schiavo.
ExurbanMom
This is my hometown, Chardon.I don’t live there anymore, but my parents still live a couple miles from the high school.
It’s the kind of midwestern town you imagine in your head when you think of small-town Ohio: bucolic town square, annual festival (theirs celebrates Maple sugaring season in April), big support for the sports teams, tight-knit and God-fearing.
The most disgusting aspect of this day, aside from the tragedy itself, has been listening to talk radio in Cleveland. The on-air talkers have been on a roll, blaming single parenthood, parents who take drugs (like dope?) while pregnant, being “friends” with their kids instead of being disciplinarians. No discussion of mental health issues whatsoever.
I’m so sad and angry right now.
isildur
Let’s be realistic here. Guns don’t kill people, and people don’t kill people. Violent video games mind-control people into killing each other.
We game developers have secret techniques passed down to us from heavy metal musicians.
Trakker
No. No it doesn’t. I refuse to back down to the NRA. I’m pleased to see more and more liberals (and some gun owners) pushing back against the current gun culture that believes every adult should be allowed to carry their guns openly wherever they want in this country.
IrishGirl
@werebear Well treating mental illness would mean states are investing in such services, which they are not.
In AZ in 2011 they passed a law that students and teachers can carry concealed on campus…and there are hardly any controls over who can carry concealed.
wowser
@freelancer: Are you from Dallas by any chance?
Xjmueller
@MattMinus:
Good question. I think it unlikely where I work, but it’s one of the mandated drills we do – fire drill, natural disaster (tornado?), man made (dirty bomb)’ etc. I’m in a fed facility in Fairfax Va. – use to bee on the Mall. It’s SOP now.
My sister in law worked for Navistar in Chicago burbs where there was a shooting incident and a co-worker had a kid at Columbine. My niece in rural Wisc was in the principal’s office when some kid came in and shot him. Sad irony that they moved from Chicago burbs to avoid stuff like that. So while unlikely, you never know. That’s why it’s just so sad. We’ve allowed ourselves to come to this.
I don’t own guns. I had kids and now grand kids and don’t want them (guns. Kids and family welcome) in the house. Nothing against hunters or sport shooting, but guns can kill you. You can look it up.
terry
Learned proper gun handling and safety and how to use them when I was a kid. Small and large caliber pistols and long guns.
Stared down the wrong end of pistol that was was first pointed at my head, then my chest. Had a good idea how big the hole would have been. When they tell you they will shoot you if you don’t give them the money, at least there is something constructive you can do. Never knew you could smoke a pack of Reds in a little more than an hour- but did after that night. Went from occasional smoker to smoker in that time. I know the shooter on the loose would have been worse than the wired guy needing money. He wasn’t coming back.
Didn’t feel compelled to own guns before that.
Never felt the urge to own a gun after that.
Still occasionally go to the range, not often.
Not sure what the answer is, but don’t see how more guns and more concealed carry is the solution. Also don’t see how looser justified shooting self defense standards help either.
I believe that realistic first person shooter games are adding to the risks from certain people with pre-existing problems, but there is the first amendment.
dww44
Betty, was this the incident in Atlanta related to the day-trader? Something about the timing and the number of dead and wounded harkens back to that incident.
.
Dollared
@Trakker: Thanks for this. If none of us believe that one day we’ll live in a sane,prosperous, fair country, it sure as hell will never happen.
slightly-peeved
@40: the number of massacres that was stopped by a ‘second amendment solution’, i.e. a Private armed citizen that shot the perpetrator is very low if not zero. If someone does shoot the perpetrator, it is generally a trained member of the police. Private citizens have sometimes stopped shooters, but by crash-tackling them (as I believe happened in the Giffords shooting).
Privatize the Profits! Socialize the Costs!
Rarely is the question asked, “To which well-regulated militia did the shooter belong?”
somegayname
why is our team rational and empirical in dealing with economics and healthcare, but react to gun violence similar to Fox News when a white kid is kidnapped. Japan is not a good comparison because it is a very homogeneous population with a history of a strict class system. Our dumb culture is very different than their dumb culture. For example, Japan isn’t even on the list of guns per capita here, but is shown here as about 2/3 the homicide rate of switzerland, which has about half the guns per capita of the USA. Are we a violent culture because of easy access to guns, or do we buy a lot of guns because we are a violent culture? Gun control is our white whale, much like teen abstinence for the right wing. For what its worth, there are a lot of Obama stickers and priuses at my gun range, so don’t assume all liberals are anti gun.
somegayname
@slightly-peeved: This is a dumb argument because there are a relatively low number of licensed carryers compared to the number of armed cops. however, Mark Wilson would like to disagree with you, and he is not the only one. Despite what you read on the internet, most gun guys are not itching to run into a gunfight, that is the cops job and why I pay taxes. There is occasionally bravado and exaggeration on the internet. Legally you are required (in most states) to use force only as a last resort, so the best (legally and rationally) response is to run like hell.
Tehanu
I work for a big private utility in Southern California with a lot of different office locations. Was mercifully home sick a couple of months ago when a guy shot up the next facility over from mine (a couple of miles away). A friend of mine reported directly to one of the victims and although she (my friend, I mean) has gone back to work now, a number of her co-workers still haven’t.
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@pragmatism: I used to play around with Markov chain-based text generators. That looks a lot like the results I would get from them.
Betty Cracker
@dww44: No. This was in Florida.
Betty Cracker
@somegayname: There’s hardly a mass movement on the left to ban guns entirely. Most favor commonsense restrictions like a ban on the sale of high capacity ammo clips or semiautomatic weapons and closure of gun show loopholes. That kind of thing should be a no-brainer, but thanks to the NRA and gun rights absolutists, few politicians have the courage to bring it up. If anyone is hysterical in this argument, it’s the gun-fondlers.
Jim Gauuan
Absolute horror and the feeling that you are next to die. I was at Cleveland School in 1989. Someone told me then that unless the cops went door to door commando style crazy fucks with arms and no guts will continue this crap. That same year some nut in Montreal killed sixteen college kids. So it seems that they sing I’m a loser baby so why don’t I kill you…
Anonymous
Exactly! Except I would change the last word to “gun assholes”.
Because, let’s be brutally honest, gun fetishists are sort of like fetus fetishists— assholes.
But having said that— no, I don’t want to take away your stupid gun, asshole. It’s too late now. Congratulations, your side has won and now we all have to live with the consequences, like this latest incident in Ohio.
But don’t forget, you are still an asshole.
Paul in KY
@Mark: I never have understood how some guy who was 6’4″ (Klebold) was so ‘tormented’, as in bullied. At my school, if you were six-four, they generally left you alone or made you captain of the football team.
Maybe thay gave him shit, because they could have used him on one of their sports teams.
Harris, I understood better.
somegayname
@Betty Cracker: Most guns nowdays are semiauto. That includes shotguns, rifles, and especially handguns. Banning high cap magazines is just spectacle, as they are rarely used in shootings, which are rare to begin with. They were banned under the AWB from 94-04 with no measurable effect other than the Democratic party losing control of Congress. There is no gunshow loophole. You can post guns for sale online, in the local classifieds of the newspaper, on the bulletin board at work or on the bulletin board at the range. Unless it is an interstate transaction, no NICS check is required in most states. California is one of the few that requires every transaction to go through a dealer and a NICS check, and I haven’t seen any data showing that this has had any effect on gun violence or crime in general.
Your commonsense restrictions are – in reality – expensive, ineffective solutions to spectacular events that (while tragic) are incredibly rare. You want serious restrictions on technology that is over 100 years old and made of simple and inexpensive pieces of metal and maybe some polymers, and that is already widespread in this country. The price points of CNC and 3D printing machines are falling such that home manufacture is probably not too far off. Are we going to cripple all the innovation that could stem from these machines because they could be used to manufacture small arms?
I think a lot of these restrictions are driven by a very different concept of security, which Bruce can expand upon. My opinion is that restrictions such as you listed are security theater. They are also analogous to the music and movie industries looking to destroy the internet because the internet is sometimes used to steal their product. In both cases a lot of regular citizens are punished because a few people are assholes.
somegayname
@Anonymous: Nope, anti gun fetishists are more similar to anti abortion fetishists, anti contraception fetishists, and anti gay marriage fetishists: They refuse to accept defeat and continue to wage a dumb culture war despite no chance of winning, no benefits of waging, and end up as a net detriment to their political party. Gun control would be the Democratic analogue to the Republicans dumb revival of their campaign against contraception.
Anonymous
Um, can we talk about your reading comprehension skills?
Gun control advocates, including moi, have indeed accepted defeat. It is too late for any kind of sensible control over guns. That horse left the barn years ago.
But as far as I know, there’s no law against calling you selfish, sociopathic gunowners ‘assholes’.
If you spent some time outside the USA, you’d soon see that most of the world basically agrees that US gun fetishists are pathetic lunatics, just like your redneck cousins in the NRA and the GOP.
Betty Cracker
@somegayname: That’s just bullshit. There’s no serious anti-gun movement in this country and hasn’t been for awhile. The NRA gins up hysteria about Barack Obama, who hasn’t done doodly-squat to take away anybody’s guns.
somegayname
Forgot to mention that probability is only half of risk analysis, because a rare event can be catastrophic as seen with the housing collapse or the BP oil spill. CDC estimates for 2010 death rates show that homicide (assault) fell from the top 15. Gun violence is only a portion of assaults.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@somegayname: You do realize that the only gun-control legislation in the works exists inside the fevered imagination of the NRA, right?
Or perhaps you can point me to the pending legislation on gun control running through congress? You know, give me the bill number?
And if you can’t, how about you go fuck yourself instead?
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@somegayname: And if only we’d start strapping everyone in the country with a street-sweeper, the crime-rate would fall to zero!
Good fucking god, just how awful a human being do you have to be to see a goddam school-shooting and think to yourself, “Welp, the real tragedy here is that some nasty librul heathen might do something to keep guns out of the hands of violent maniacs, and that’s the worst possible thing, so I’d better get out to the blogs to join the fight against the gun-control zealots who don’t understand that a dozen children’s lives are worth less than helping me feel better about my tiny dick by carrying a fucking gun everywhere I go.”
Fuck. You. Scumbag.
somegayname
@Betty Cracker: ummmm what is bullshit? I never claimed there was a serious movement, just that to do so would be dumb and analogous to the republicans dumb movement against birth control.
@Anonymous: Yes let’s talk about reading comprehension. You are not the entirety of antigun fetishists. Betty was proposing ‘sensible’ gun control similar to anti abortionists (such as Will Saletan) calling for ‘sensible’ compromise which in effect means capitulating.
For what it’s worth, I’ve lived in England (liberal credentials: I was in london for the G8 protests that devolved into riots in ’99) and India, and traveled Europe. Wasn’t into guns so it never came up then. I have internet acquaintances from Sweden, Switzerland, New Zealand, and Australia who enjoy shooting and discuss the hobby on forums. You have a bit of confirmation bias in your interpretation of gun politics outside the USA. If you met me you would not know I owned guns or enjoyed shooting unless we became friendly. If it somehow came up and you went on a rant, I’d just nod and change the subject. But I guess that makes me an asshole.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@somegayname:
Yes, I’m sure we all remember those times that dozens of people were murdered in a birth control rampage.
Better for a million to die violently than for one man to be denied his right to carry his gun everywhere, with the safety off, just looking for someone who needs shooting.
Again: fuck you, you piece of shit.
somegayname
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: @Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Well these are rational responses. Dear Lord, I was responding to specific propositions in these comments, not some KENYANSOSHALISTPLOTTOTAKEMAHGUNS. Why is it ok for someone to respond to this tragedy with a wishful policy change, but not ok for me to respond to that hypothetical policy change? I tried to use logic, data and be calm.
Propositions to ‘arm everyone’ are straw men. ‘Birth control rampages’ are nonsense straw men. The comparison wasn’t about victims, but about the relative futility of the endeavors.
Baron Jrod of Keeblershire
@somegayname: So, in other words, you’re responding to an actual problem, that of mentally unstable people having unlimited access to guns whenever they feel like massacring a school full of children, by whining about the imaginary problem of gun control legislation. Yeah, you’re the rational one here.
Do you even give a fuck? Four people are dead and a thousand more traumatized for life, and all you care about is the remote chance that someone might take away your gun. You’re a piece of shit. You’re a bad person who makes the world a worse place. Fuck. You. May you suffer as the people in that school did, you jackass.
I mean it. People who oppose all gun control are objectively in favor of these massacres. THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT!!! FUCK YOU!!!!! I hope you eat one of those bullets you jerk off to.
Some Guy
@somegayname:
Sensible Gun Control =/= Take Away All Your Guns
Nobody want to get rid of all the guns; we just want sensible legislation to prevent unstable/irresponsible people from obtaining a firearm.
somegayname
@Baron Jrod of Keeblershire: Do you campaign for prohibition when you read of drunk driving deaths? Is advocating to end the drug war equivalent to wishing heroin overdose on ALL THE CHILDRENS? I was also ‘objectively pro-saddam’ in the early aughts, according to people of comparable analytical skillz.
Yes I care, but nothing I type on the internet is of comfort to those affected.
somegayname
@Some Guy: But I read nothing to that effect. See Betty’s list. Maybe the ‘loophole’ but it hasn’t done much good in CA. This Ohio guy and Jared both had clean records until they went and did something horrible. In hindsight they both posted weird things on the internet but so do a lot of young people.
Betty Cracker
@somegayname:
Nope. But sensible laws against drunk driving are a good idea.
And Will Saletan? Really? You just about pushed me into the “fuck you, you fucking fuck!” commenter camp with that one.
Jrod
Yes, let’s compare drunk driving to gun control. Being in favor of gun control equates to favoring strict drunk-driving laws and preventing the most dangerous such drivers from getting behind the wheel. Being opposed to gun control equates to pretending that the whole drunk driving thing didn’t really kill those people and railing against the tyrrany that is the driver’s licence. If you support the NRA, you support gun massacres. It’s that simple.
stevestory
Sorry but this is an example of a threat blown out of proportion for psychological reasons. Like how a terrorist attack gets 1,000 times more attention than a lethal car wreck.
Your chance of being murdered this year with a gun is 1 in 25,000. To put that in perspective that’s a little rarer than flipping heads 14 times in a row.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@stevestory: I’d love to see a cite to that 1 in 25,000 odds number. Do you have one? It seems quite low to me.
Betty Cracker
@stevestory: In the UK, your chance of being murdered with a gun is about one in one million. I like their chances better.
No one is saying that gun violence is the most pressing issue in the universe right now (well, maybe the parents of the kids who were shot in their school are saying that, but I didn’t see anyone in this discussion make that claim). The thing is, it’s senseless, and something could be done about it without imposing an onerous burden on individual liberty, the NRA’s hysteria notwithstanding.
somegayname
@Jrod: Nope, thats some bad logic and poor analogies. Drunk driving laws punish the act after the fact. They might be a deterrent, but we have similar laws for murder and manslaughter that should serve as the analogous deterrent. They don’t require you to jump through numerous hoops to get a beer because you might drive later. Checkpoints at shooting ranges checking for felons with guns would also be a good idea. Even better than the sensible laws was the PR campaign that put a stigma on drunk driving. A similar campaign for gun safety would be useful and could prevent negligent discharges such as that idiot in Florida who didn’t clear his gun and shot a girl.
@Betty Cracker: Sorry, but I calls em like I sees em, and I hate some Saletanish “lets do the sensible thing which is precisely what I want based on no empirical evidence”. I thank Atrios for that.
somegayname
@Betty Cracker: But the murder rate in UK is 1.7 times that of Sweden (2009) despite the much larger number of guns in Sweden (2007, UK not on the list). I’d take Sweden.
Betty Cracker
@somegayname: I notice you didn’t respond to the drunk driving / prohibition analogy thing. I guess it didn’t support your point, Mr. Saletan.
somegayname
@Betty Cracker: see first half here: @somegayname:
Also too, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Betty Cracker
@somegayname: Oh, I see. The drunk driving / prohibition analogy is a good one when you want to introduce it to portray people who favor commonsense gun control as hysterical Carrie Nation types. But when someone points out the middle ground, it’s a poor analogy. I guess it’s pointless to observe that the gun rights / abortion rights is a bit flawed too. Whatever.
somegayname
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): CDC data for 2009 puts firearm homicides at 3.7 per 100,000. That’s 1 in 27,027. It’s decreased since then as assuault/homicide isn’t even in the top 15 for the 2010 summary. S
Pococurante
Most kids go through an alienation phase. They learn somethings get attention, with little or any realization of consequences.
The answer is not to treat a pair of tweezers like a boy scout camp loadout.
somegayname
@Betty Cracker: Yes? Rarely are situations perfectly parallel so analogies are not all purpose. Another analogy is voter fraud. I’m sure some dumb ass somewhere has committed voter fraud, but the rarity and lack of impact of such behavior doesn’t warrant these voter
suppressionfraud bills that make voting more difficult for everyone and disenfranchise plenty of people. Now, having made that analogy doesn’t mean I view gun rights on par with voting rights, just noting a similarity in hysterical responses and that the ‘cure’ doesn’t actually address the act in question.Betty Cracker
@somegayname: Okay, so analogies are okay when you use them to label others as dumb and/or hysterical but lose their validity when applied to your arguments. Got it.
Last question: Do you favor taking any action at all to address gun violence in the US, aside from possibly a public service campaign to heap derision on concealed carry permit holders who accidentally kill innocent bystanders or possibly closing the gun show loophole as alluded to above? Or is it just such a non-issue that no further action is required?
somegayname
@Betty Cracker: There is no loophole. Private sales are legal in most states. Show me the data that demonstrate requiring all transfers to go through a NICS check has a significant impact. CA is one such state, and I haven’t seen such data, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. If it has an effect then I could support it, but most of your propositions have been tested and the data do not support your conclusions (see also assault weapons ban and high cap mags). Idiots who kill innocent bystanders should be prosecuted for manslaughter. The PR campaign would hopefully limit such instances, and the data is there to suggest a similar campaign had an impact on drunk driving.
One action guaranteed to reduce gun violence is to end the drug war. A decrease in violence accompanied the end of prohibition. Most of the time gun violence is a symptom not a cause in and of itself
Please, point out a flaw in my reasoning/analogies if they exist but quit being willfully obtuse. I explained why I think the prohibition analogy was apt: alcohol is a luxury no one NEEDS, it treats everyone as a prospective criminal, and history showed it was a huge cost for no benefit.
anonymous
Well, Mr, Gun Asshole, you have made at least one good point.
Drunk drivers ARE a whole lot like gun owners— selfish jerks who (more favorable interpretation) don’t give a shit about their fellow man, or (less favorable interpretation) have a conscious or subconscious hostility to their fellow man.
On a Venn diagram, you’d find the handgun owners in most of the same circles as the drunk drivers, the racists, the homophobes, the tobacco chewers, the Bible thumpers, the wrestling fans, the Confederate Flag flyers, and the Fox News viewers.
My hearty feeling is, fuck you and your entire demographic.
Some Loser
@somegayname: It is a stupid analogy. I will repeat: No one wants to ban guns everywhere. Make it harder to obtain guns, sure. Outright banning guns? No, we do not want that.
Comparing gun control to Prohibition is saying that gun control is banning all guns. It is a stupid, intellectually dishonest argument. Sorry, people here will not fall for it.
Also, too, you say gun violence comes from the war on drugs. Please show evidence for this bullshit. Please.
Your analogy is weak, and your logic is not sound. Do something about that, and we’ll talk.
Some Loser
@anonymous:
Fucking agreed.
It is so fucking sad how otherwise sensible people act like this around gun control. Even liberals act like, what is the term, conservatards.
Maybe it is the NRA brainwashing that any and all gun control equal a total ban on gun control.
Personally, I think the amount of irresponsibilities people show around guns is appalling. A firearm is a dangerous thing, and people should fear it and its power. But, no. Thanks to the culture perpetrated by groups like the NRA, people treat this dangerous tools as a toy.
somegayname
@Some Loser:
from Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention
Plenty more here. If drugs become a legitimate business street violence no longer makes economic sense. This was also evidenced during and after prohibition. Now, I’ve provided plenty of links from CDC, DOJ, OJJDP and others throughout this thread to support my positions. I’m going to have to hold you to equal standards, so no more opining without data.
No, you said this. I said they were similar in that they were policies on luxury items that preemptively treats everyone as a criminal, but are not effective against people intent on breaking the law. Reading anything further into it is either a valiant attempt to set up a straw man or a failed attempt at reading comprehension.
fred
Golfer? I hope you didn’t miss the Mayakoba Golf Classic this weekend. Everyone looked like they enjoyed sunny beautiful Mexico! Especially first time PGA Tour winner, John Huh. Final round wrap-up video right here: http://bit.ly/zf7jjR