Deep in grief, Barbara Johnson stood first in the line for Communion at her mother’s funeral Saturday morning. But the priest in front of her immediately made it clear that she would not receive the sacramental bread and wine.
Johnson, an art-studio owner from the District, had come to St. John Neumann Catholic Church in Gaithersburg with her lesbian partner. The Rev. Marcel Guarnizo had learned of their relationship just before the service.
“He put his hand over the body of Christ and looked at me and said, ‘I can’t give you Communion because you live with a woman, and in the eyes of the church, that is a sin,’ ” she recalled Tuesday.
She reacted with stunned silence. Her anger and outrage have now led her and members of her family to demand that Guarnizo be removed from his ministry.
Reader Interactions
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arguingwithsignposts
Fat chance of that.
AT HER MOTHER’S FUNERAL!
Chyron HR
Hey, why is it only Catholicism that gets criticized when Catholic churches maliciously deny people communion, huh? That’s a blatant double standard if you ask me.
John M. Burt
@arguingwithsignposts: There’s a time and a place for everything . . . .
Xenos
‘living with a woman’ is a sin?
Damn! Am I in trouble…
How does this priest know that this lesbian couple has sex? Simply being a lesbian is not sinful, is it?
dmsilev
After all, that Jesus guy was such a hard-ass; the Church is just living up to his example…
walt
Hey, it’s the Catholic Church, the one that gave Hitler a requiem mass after his suicide in 1945 but excommunicated every Communist in 1949.
Let’s stop pretending this church has ever been anything much more than a vehicle for reactionary patriarchal assholes.
arguingwithsignposts
@John M. Burt:
a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain
I think this priest just has the timing reversed.
Soonergrunt
Things like this is why I haven’t been inside a Catholic church in over 20 years and why I never will again.
Former priests who raped defenseless children were given communion–hell, they got communion WHILE raping children and being unrepentant.
The double standard that is and was SOP in the church is why many people of good conscience do not and will not go to Mass.
arguingwithsignposts
Ahem:
I can make that connection in two exegetical moves.
WyldPirate
What’s really dumb is thinking that eating a damn cracker and drinking some shitty wine and having some wanker in a funny robe mumble some horseshit means jackshit in the first place.
geg6
Fuck that stupid priest with a rusty pitchfork. Sideways. The RCC is the opposite of everything their so-called “son of god” preached. I have respect for his message of love, kindness, and forgiveness but that church deserves no respect at all. I despise them with all my heart.
Meanwhile, here I sit in the surgical waiting room and my John is under the knife. Good vibes will be appreciated.
Soonergrunt
@arguingwithsignposts: Fact is, that one passage is all that Christianity is really supposed to be about. Everything else is bullshit.
Those who care for the least of these, my children, shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Those who do not, will not.
c u n d gulag
So, let me get this straight:
If you’re a child schtupping Priest, Bishop, or Cardinal – or a former one, you can get Communion.
But if you’re a Lesbian with a significant other – even at YOUR MOTHERS FUNERAL – tough luck, no Christ for you!
Never mind “Compassionate Conservatism,” whatever happened to Compassionate Catholicism?
Joshua James
Instead of demanding the priest be removed, she should realize that it’s Catholic faith that’s the problem … I know so many gay Catholics in denial about this, it boggles my mind … they hate you, why belong to something that denounces your sex regularly (that goes for women in general) and tell you you’re gonna burn in hell … why waste your time with that organization?
c u n d gulag
The Christ Nazi’s – “No Christ for you!”
Elizabelle
@geg6:
Good vibes to you and John, as requested.
This priest was cruel, and does not belong in the community. I hope he gets transferred, and to some personal hardship.
At least he’s created a real PR problem for the RCC.
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@Soonergrunt:
Unfortunately, it feels like every single major sect of Christianity has forgotten about this. The Roman Catholic Church is hardly alone in this. Still, that is some special sort of assholery to say to someone, at their MOTHER’S FUCKING FUNERAL, that ‘No, you can’t have communion because you’re an abomination’.
This is why I’m a long, long lapsed Catholic. The philosophy behind Jesus’ teachings are sound, but the mysticism and demagoguery that persists around them continues to make me sigh and walk away.
WyldPirate
@c u n d gulag:
Raging hypocrisy comes to mind…
mistermix
The Post story left out another detail. The priest left the altar when Barbara gave the eulogy for her sister.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/02/26/priest-walks-out-of-womans-funeral-because-of-her-gay-daughter/
geg6
c u n d gulag @13:
Compassionate Catholicism? BWAHAHAHA! Never existed and never will. Perhaps some individual Catholics may be characterized that way but the actual Church? Shit no.
WereBear (itouch)
@geg6: Good vibes at you and John.
And I am very sympathetic to those who love their church and wish to remain there, the laity in Catholicism have only the power to stay or go, as I understand it.
Jenn
@geg6: Best of wishes heading your and John’s way!
greennotGreen
“He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” John 8:7
Does this priest also deny communion to artists? They make graven images. To people who work on Sunday? They’re not keeping it holy. Teenagers who are disrespectful to their parents? The covetous? There are a lot of people who covet something or other.
Oh, that’s right, there’s nothing in the ten commandments about sexual preference…and Jesus didn’t say anything about it. Paul did, but Paul also said women shouldn’t have short hair.
You know what Jesus did say? “Love one another.”
Olaugh
This is the same church which 2 days ago had about a hundred little crosses in its yard and a big sign saying,”Remember the millions of children who were killed because of choice.” This, by the way, is right across from a high school.
greennotGreen
Those who haven’t seen the New Zealand-made movie “Perfect Creature” who also like sci-fi might be interested in it. It’s an alternate world where vampires are the Church. While telling a somewhat standard horror/sci-fi tale, it makes some interesting comments about priests and the Church.
Cermet
Last time I checked, the catholic church represented a group that believes its leaders alone hand out god’s favors/grace and is the sole authority that determines who gets or does not get salvation. What part of this does the average catholic not get? Christ has nothing to do with this pit of vile child molesters or protectors of such molesters. If you want to follow these perverts, then that is their right as enforcers of the church’s values and will – change if you don’t like it but if you go to their church, don’t expect anything less.
Gin & Tonic
@geg6:
That’s a hard place to be, I know. Best wishes.
priscianusjr
@walt:
Soonergrunt
@Olaugh: I need to rent land opposite a Catholic church and plant hundreds of crosses to remember the women who died in childbirth and the alter boys who were molested.
Omnes Omnibus
@WyldPirate: Anthropologists will tell you that ritual has an important function. Obviously this set of rituals does nothing for you (nor me either), but that doesn’t mean that it is meaningless to others.
@geg6: Good thoughts, speedy recovery, etc.
Riilism
When I was in parochial grade school, our priest once told us that if we forgot to go to confession before getting up to accept communion, we should quickly ask God’s forgiveness for our sins before accepting. The implication, of course, was that a priest’s intercession was not strictly required for us to be eligible to receive the blood and body of Christ.
You’d think that the idea of using the sacrament of communion as essentially a weapon to bludgeon those who don’t adhere to particular church teachings (has anyone been denied communion due to their support of the death penalty?) would give the church pause. In the past, the idea that the church’s intercession is required for salvation has led “some” to break away from the most holy and “universal” church.
Then, again, perhaps the Catholic Church should not only punish those who apparently do not strictly adhere to church teachings, but should also reward or indulge those who genuflect most deeply before the infallible words of Christ’s foundational rock.
After all, the stick is often more effective when combined with the carrot, no?
magurakurin
@Joshua James: I totally agree. I mean if you don’t believe that it’s a sin to be gay I don’t really see how you also get to believe that the RCC is going to somehow save your soul and get you to heaven. You have take all or nothing or it ain’t much of a faith. It seems to me if you are going to pick and choose, you aren’t a Catholic. You might very well be an Episcopalian, though. In fact, that’s probably what a lot of American Catholics really are and if the Episcopal church was so inclined, I believe a good marketing campaign would be very, very effective right now. They accept gay people into the congregation and ministry, they believe in the right to use all forms of birth control, they allow their priests to marry and therefore be, you know, normal.
The Roman Catholic Church is like 500 centuries past its shelf date, but somehow it continues. Truly amazing.
Raven
Where did the Berrigan’s go?
Hawes
The Catholic church is the best thing to happen to the Episcopal church in a long time. We get all the fun, cool Catholics who wake up one day and say, “Wha’?”
We can give you all the archaic ceremony without the bigotry!
secular_oz
So The Rev. Marcel Guarnizo is a complete wretch. What a surprise! He is, after all, a devout Christian. :(
magurakurin
@Hawes: for sure the Episcopal Church is way cool, for a church. I’m not a religious man at all. I’m not really an atheist either. I believe in a spiritual existence, but I cannot and really mostly try not to express it. That being said, I wanted to be married in a church because I knew it would make my mom, a lifelong Catholic, happy and because I just wanted to.
We asked the RCC if they would do it and they more or less said no, but the Episcopal minister we asked was so friendly and kind and so accepting of what we wanted. I explained I just wanted a spiritual element in our marriage even though we were not religious at all and really had no interest in becoming regular church goers. He was totally cool with that and totally happy to marry us. He gave a very nice service and his brief sermon was very kind, warm and full of, well, grace. He was a stand up and righteous man.
stratplayer
@WyldPirate: I am an observant Episcopalian who sings in the choir and eats those stale crackers and drinks that cheap fortified wine served by funny-robed people on a weekly basis and I am not offended by your comment! Indeed, I rather like it! Am I hellbound?
WyldPirate
@Omnes Omnibus:
Sure it does. The importance of “ritual” froms the basis of obsessive-compulsive disorders to all sorts of inane human and cultural practices.
And we here at BJ spend a lot of time pointing at and mocking some rituals and behaviors and getting outraged at others.
jomo
Interesting how the leadership of the Catholic Church looks more and more like the right wing fundamentalists – but the membership of the Church is increasingly mainstream. Gay rights is supported by a huge majority of Catholics. It seems the gap is growing wider.
harlana
my friend, what wanted to join the Catholic church, was not allowed to take communion because she had divorced and remarried – i don’t think they would “officially” let her join for that reason – weird because it was the “remarried” part that the church seemed to have a problem with – anybody out there smarter than me, please correct me on this if i am wrong
SuzyQ
What a horrible “man of God”! I was having a conversation with a friend, a born and raised Catholic, I told her if I had children, I would never send them to Catholic school. She said, “what’s wrong with Catholic school” I said, “the Catholic Church!” Religious freedom indeed!!
SiubhanDuinne
@mistermix:
It was in there, just not in the section DougJ quoted:
Kirbster
Wow! What a dick move by the priest. Instead of Holy Communion, it’s now Holier-Than-Thou Communion.
SiubhanDuinne
@geg6:
Good vibes and white light to John and to you.
WyldPirate
@stratplayer:
Hellbound? You’re asking the wrong person. I see no evidence of anything other than our time as living organisms as being all there really “is”. I see no reason to divvy up some imaginary destination for “souls” to go once our bodies can no longer maintain us.
We rot away wherever we may end up just like every other form of life and enter in to the big carbon, nitrogen and other cycles that return the elements to other life that reuses our rotten carcasses.
SiubhanDuinne
@Raven:
Philip died about ten years ago. Daniel is still alive, still a priest and poet and activist, according to the word of Wikipedia. He’s 90 years old.
Schlemizel
At the Cathedral in Saint Paul, MN they have a team of thugs that patrol the aisles to prevent gays from making it to the alter for communion. I don’t know if that is an every Sunday thing or if they save it for special events. There have been articles about it in the local paper.
The church is devoid of morality or scruples, it is only inertia that keeps it in place.
vanya
@Joshua James: I agree. The Priest in this case was following the teachings of the Church. Don’t blame the messenger – listen to the message, this is a church that can’t be reformed.
SiubhanDuinne
@Kirbster:
Perfect!
Schlemizel
@geg6:
Its at times like this that I wished I believed in the power of prayer, at least it would feel like there was something I could do to help you.
I’ll think positive thoughts and hope for the best for both of you.
James King
No divorcees at this funeral?
Schlemizel
@Chyron HR:
I was a Methodist for a long time and in the 80’s there was quite a row about the place of gays in the church. Despite having an official position that homosexuality was a sin and would make you a member not in good standing communion was never an issue. It is supposed to be Christs meal and available to all. If the Pope showed up he would be invited to join.
I don’t know if they have changed their attitude about gays but they are open on this issue.
MaxxLange
I will never understand people who posit an infinite intellectual spirit, immaterial, unlimited in every way, the Creator of time, space, and the universe, who is principally concerned about human sexual behavior.
Marc
You can take anything that people do and come up with a sneering way of making it look stupid. Look at those idiots stringing lights up every December! Why do those stupid people sit around and watch explosions sitting on blankets? Look at those beggars running around in badly made costumes demanding candy!
There is such a thing as a metaphor, and there are rituals that mean a lot to people. Being refused communion is being publicly shunned by your community, at a funeral – which is expressly designed to comfort the family of the person who died.
Carbon-based lifeforms can appreciate why that’s such a despicable thing for a priest to do, even if they have no use for religion.
Johannes
@geg6: Prayers, good vibes and good wishes from this Episcopalian ex-roman Catholic, who is not remotely surprised by the main post.
elmo
What I don’t get is how people can still be surprised at anything done by the Church or its minions. None of this is new. They are who we thought they were, etc.
My mother was a devout Catholic as a girl. Seriously, seriously considered taking holy orders. Then when she was fourteen, her father died. The family was living in Church-owned property at the time, renting a house I believe.
The monsignor evicted them. Not because they couldn’t pay rent – actually, my mother’s mother had been the breadwinner, and her father a bit of a deadbeat – but because he didn’t want a single woman with children living on Church property. Unseemly, don’t you know.
magurakurin
@WyldPirate:
Shit. You’re a real cowboy?
That’s nice, man.
That’s all right.
Fifteen dollars, fifteen minutes, twenty-five dollars, half an hour.
John PM
@MaxxLange
An all-knowing eternal being concerned about human sexual behavior makes more sense if we are talking about the Q-continuum. Otherwise, not so much.
jrg
@James King: Don’t be silly. Divorcees aren’t enough of a minority to pick on. You don’t expect these assholes to actually make a sacrifice by losing their status as God to all the RC mooks who happen to be divorced, do you?
Gay, that’s a different story. At least until society starts punishing them for it… When they lose too many members, they’ll run off with their tails between their legs, like the cowards they are.
rikryah
he’s lucky he didn’t get his ass beat right then and there.
Frank
What religion of Christianity is this? Have they never heard of “those without sin”? I’d like to read the bible they use in that church.
redshirt
I welcome all these assholes moves by the Catholic Church and all the rest. Let everyone see how hypocritical and evil they are. Let the scales of fear fall from people’s eyes as they realize these are just a bunch of fucked up men desperate to hang on to their WORLDLY power.
I don’t want to see them “Learn” or “Grow”. I want them gone. All of them.
Paul in KY
@arguingwithsignposts: Excellent post. If Jesus ever really came back, those fuckers would be in a world of hurt.
hamletta
Another part Doug left out is that the Archbishop is hacked off. During the Kerry campaign he said he wasn’t about to turn anyone away from Communion, because he can’t see into their souls.
The not-so-good father is in the doghouse now.
Paul in KY
@Joshua James: Good point. You can still follow Christianity & be a Christian without being in any church.
Hell, make your own church up. Chances are you can get tax breaks!
Tlachtga
But what I want to know is why someone who is gay would want to take part in the ritual of a religion that doesn’t want them for a member? I don’t mean the funeral, but why would she want to go to communion? Why believe in a god that doesn’t believe in you?
It’s not like the Catholic Church just decided yesterday that being gay is sinful–so why is she clinging to it?
Paul in KY
@geg6: Best wishes on John’s speedy recovery.
i don"t know...
Obviously he’s a terrible asshole, but why does anyone think that he’s the minority that will be dealt with rather than liberal priests? This is a top-down authoritarian group and those that put Ratzi in power aren’t the lefty type.
Paul in KY
@Raven: Gone for sainthood everyone…
Frank
@Tlachtga:
But couldn’t you also say this about 98% of Catholic women who use contraceptives, which supposedly is also a sin according those running the Catholic church. Why believe in a God that doesn’t believe in you?
JMG
The Catholic Church is incompatible with the ideals of democracy and human rights. It OUGHT to be persecuted.
hamletta
@Frank: It’s not God that objects to gays and contraceptives, it’s a bunch of clowns in red beanies.
Ms. Johnson doesn’t go to that parish; she lives in The District. She doesn’t have to deal with Father Dickhead on a regular basis.
Tlachtga
@Frank: Yes. And that’s one reason I’m no longer a Catholic.
Frank
@hamletta:
Yeah, I know it is not God. Sorry for not making it clear.
jheartney
If you want to be a remarried Catholic in good standing, your earlier marriage(s) need to be annulled, which essentially says said marriages never happened (generally for some transparently absurd reason).
If you want some cheap laughs, google the issue of whether or not children of annulled marriages (like me, for example) are illegitimate. If the marriage never happened, they must be, right? But you can find Catholics tying themselves in knots trying to avoid this obvious logical conclusion.
I think Goalpost Moving 1.0 has to be one of the mandatory introductory classes at Catholic seminary.
Had to attend a Mass a few years ago when an aunt died. I didn’t go up for one of the crackers, though I’m sure they would have given me one if I had.
Rafer Janders
@Tlachtga:
But what I want to know is why someone who is gay would want to take part in the ritual of a religion that doesn’t want them for a member? I don’t mean the funeral, but why would she want to go to communion? Why believe in a god that doesn’t believe in you?
You may as well ask why someone who is gay would want to get married in a state that doesn’t want to allow them to get married.
rea
@vanya: The Priest in this case was following the teachings of the Church.
Look, if he’d made his point when the arrangements for the funeral were being made, there might be an argument that he was “just following the teachings of the Church.” Instead, he sprung it on the grieving family by surprise at the funeral itself. Is it one of the teachings of the church that he act like an asshole?
FlipYrWhig
@Schlemizel:
How does this work? They wait vigilantly for what they know to be the telltale signs and then tackle the guy, Secret Service-style?
rumpole
Um, forgive me, but isn’t this exactly what religious freedom means? (Wait before you light the blowtorch). If the church thinks this is a mortal sin, then it doesn’t have to provide communion to this woman. It sure should have told her -before- she held her mother’s funeral there, and there’s no denying that the priest is a flaming asshole, and that is being kind to flaming assholes. That, however, is an entirely different issue.
Look-if the church actually practiced what it preached, no gays, no birth control users, (because birth control is on the same plane as abortion), it would either have to change its benighted policies or quickly wither on the vine. The laity would consist of nothing but sexually frustrated old men–a virtual copy of the curia. (The same thing would happen if the Rs actually ran on what they believe. Run Ricky, Run!).
Tlachtga
@Rafer Janders: You may as well ask why someone who is gay would want to get married in a state that doesn’t want to allow them to get married.
I personally think we need to get away from being “states”–the idea that a marriage is recognized in one state and not another is absurd, as is anything where one state allows something and another bans it. The rules should apply to all states–didn’t we fight a civil war about this concept?
Church membership is voluntary; citizenship isn’t. Make marriage equality–like everything else–national.
Paul in KY
@rumpole: See your point. That decision (IMO) is way above that priest’s pay grade. He should have just shut the fuck up & give her the cracker.
beergoggles
Umm, how unaware do you have to be (especially as a LGBT person) to not know this is SOP for the RCC? These people hate you. These people are doing their best to kill people like you in places they can get away with it. Yet you somehow think you’re special (how rich do u have to be to think it doesn’t apply to you?) and they will treat you differently. WTF?
I have the same reaction the last time a lesbian couple tried to send their kid to a catholic school and was denied.
Berial
“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.” – Seneca
Same as it ever was, same as it ever was.
Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity
The priest should not be removed. This is official church doctrine. He did the right thing. His church, on the other hand…
Ms. Johnson needs to find another church that’s willing to accept her as a human being.
We’ve got some bishop here in San Diego who won’t let homosexuals be buried on church grounds.
The Catholic mafia would willingly follow a non-conformist to hell just to be able to kick them a few more times before Satan takes over the job.
EDIT: I see a few of you think this will be some kind of PR problem for the church. Again, we have a lunatic in charge of the San Diego bishopric who will not allow homosexuals to be buried on any Church-owned grounds.
Crickets, nationally.
scav
@geg6: Vibes sent, best I could manage.
Comrade Dread
Yeah, the priest should have been more compassionate about it and told her she couldn’t take mass when he found out about her relationship before the service so she wouldn’t be made a spectacle, but the Catholic church’s stance on homosexuality isn’t exactly a secret.
So why would this be a surprise to her?
Chrisd
@rumpole: I agree. The Catholic hierarchy makes the rules. The laity, if they want, can respectfully work for change within the Church. Good luck with that. Or they can walk on out the door and take their money with them. Given a choice between winning a theological argument with old men in dresses or threatening their sinecures, I’d bet on the latter.
Robert
The Archdiocese for her church actually came out against the priest in this case. They won’t do anything beyond that, but they issued a public statement reprimanding him for not following proper protocol. Turns out you’re not allowed to judge people who come in line for communion. Period. Full stop. End of discussion.
http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/193305/373/Gaithersburg-Priest-Involved-In-Funeral-Controversy
Jose Padilla
@Hawes:
In theory, you csn be denied communion at an Episcopal Church as well, but I’ve never heard of it happening.
The Catholic Church will never change. They’re playing the long game, eternity. Stalin once asked how many divisions the Pope could command. The Soviet Union is long gone but the Church is still there.
St Heathen
This priest needs to be instructed on the difference between the Sacrament of Communion and the the Sacrament of Penance.
There would be no Communion if only those without sin could partake.
Then he can preach about the sin of love, to the pews.
Rafer Janders
@Tlachtga:
OK, but that’s never, ever, going to happen. Marriage (like a host of other functions, such as education, professional licensing, etc.) is a function left to the states, and that will never change so long as we retain the basic structure of the US government as we know it. Whether this is a good or bad thing is immaterial to the fact that it is just the way it is.
Rafer Janders
@Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity:
The priest should not be removed. This is official church doctrine. He did the right thing.
Actually, it’s not official Church doctrine, and he didn’t do the right thing according to the rules of the Church. As a matter of policy priests should not refuse communion at the altar, as the priest cannot know that the person has not repented for any sinful acts which may or may not have been committed before that person took communion.
J
I agree with those condemning the church above, but I don’t think it gets the priest of the hook. He could have exercised a little discretion–it was his decision to make a big song and dance of his ‘moral’ horror before the wicked sin of lesbianism.
And surely we can spare an unkind word for the snitch who thought that Father Holier than Thou had to know this.
When I was a Catholic school boy a million years ago, our religious teachers would occasionally try to argue that sexual prohibitions were not the beginning and the end of morality. I wonder whether they even bother now.
wrb
Denying communion is all they are doing to heretics now?
The Church has lost its mojo.
I’m a bit puzzled how todays “Cafeteria Catholics” are still Catholics.
Aren’t they just another form of protestant?
The originals of all the other protestants used to be Catholics but rejected one or another aspect of the Church’s teaching and were cast out.
Surly Duff
While the purpose of the post is to elicit my surprise, alas, I cannot muster the astonishment over the ignorance of a Catholic priest. Christianity and Catholicism acknowledges that all men and women are sinners and God forgives us of our sins through absolution and by giving thanks to God.
But fuck me if I think a priest should actually know that shit.
mdblanche
@harlana: So how did Newt Gingrich get in?
gex
@Xenos: They always pretend like the sex is the problem, not the orientation. Yet you see them stick up for bullying preteens who have most likely never had sex, but they are clearly on the not heteronormative track.
It isn’t the sex that’s the problem. The refusing to be told what to think and do is the real problem. And she’s guilty as charged.
Plus, she wasn’t even smart enough to be born with a penis, so who really cares about her anyhow?
gex
@Joshua James: Yeah. She totally should have made her mother change her religion and funeral plans. Having failed to do that, she should shut the fuck up because she should have known better. /snark
gex
@WereBear (itouch): Yup. And staying enables all this, yet they won’t take any responsibility because they actually do disapprove of the leadership’s behavior. They’ll just keep paying to politic against gays and women and child rape victims, but they won’t do anything about it nor accept criticism for propping it up.
gex
@priscianusjr: It’s only a bigoted statement if you can prove those folks wouldn’t have done all their good works anyway. I know non-believers who can be good, so I assume believers can be innately good too. So I have no reason to believe that RELIGION, the same religion handed out by these guys, is solely responsible for their laity’s good behaviors.
What I do know is that very few institutions other than the RCC have the kind of immunity from the law that we see with these guys. And they always have been. The critical look at the Church you reacted to is accurate, not bigoted if you ask me.
Ken
Someday someone is going to say “Ah, well, might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb” and punch the priest in the face when something like this happens.
Tlachtga
@Rafer Janders: OK, but that’s never, ever, going to happen. Marriage (like a host of other functions, such as education, professional licensing, etc.) is a function left to the states, and that will never change so long as we retain the basic structure of the US government as we know it. Whether this is a good or bad thing is immaterial to the fact that it is just the way it is.
Actually, it’s not. This is what things like the Supreme Court is for. It used to be illegal in some states to marry outside your race; thanks to Loving v. Virginia, it’s been legal everywhere since 1967. It used to be illegal to engage in homosexual acts in thirteen states; thanks to Lawrence v. Texas, that’s overturned.
Admittedly, relying on the Supreme Court isn’t really the best way to deal with this. Leaving things like marriage, education, and professional licensing to the states is archaic. A doctor who loses his license in Michigan shouldn’t be able to practice in Florida. A couple married in one state shouldn’t be denied that status in another state, throwing things like their economic status into chaos–that’s just common sense. It’s as much an issue of economic liberty–I should be able to live in any state in this country if I have the economic means, and not be prevented because of someone’s religious beliefs–as one of personal liberty.
MattR
Trying to decide if this is more or less disgusting than the church in Florida that no longer allows children to its Sunday services because they recently hired a priest who had been convicted of child moelstation and is therefore not allowed to have contact with children.
gex
@Paul in KY: Who are you people suggesting she just go to a different church WHERE THE FUNERAL IS NOT? I don’t fucking understand the absolute need to blame the victim. What the fuck is wrong with you guys? Was the daughter just not to go to her mother’s funeral or was she supposed to go sit by herself in an empty, but more gay tolerant church?
ThresherK
Can’t believe we haven’t mentioned what a GoodCatholic(TM) Rudy Giuliani is yet.
@Xenos: Totally wild guess on my part: They figure she’s having lesbian sex because her Catholic pharmacist hasn’t seen her buy condoms, she hasn’t asked for hormonal contraception at a Birthright or a Catholic hospital, and she’s not yet pregnant.
les
@priscianusjr:
Citation needed.
harlana
@mdblanche: well, i’m sure he had his marriages annulled and then perhaps he could take communion – you know you can attend but not take communion for certain reasons, something like that – that’s why i am confused about this; perhaps she didn’t want to go through all that annullment business, not sure, but she kept attending services anyway
so anyway, it’s possible Newt joined, attends services, but is still unable to take communion – but if past marriages have been annulled, then perhaps he can fully participate
also wondering, are annullments “not for everybody” – i mean, is it harder for an ordinary schmuck to get an annullment than somebody who has power, influence & $ like Newt? it seems different priests exert their authority in different ways depending on the individual church. but as is obvious, i’m pretty clueless on these matters.
Comrade Dread
@gex:
I’m making a supposition that she is Catholic as well based on her getting in line to take communion. If so, she should be aware of the Church’s stance since they haven’t been quiet about it, though given the circumstances, it’s understandable that church teaching wouldn’t be at the forefront of her mind.
If the priest was concerned about it, he should have taken her aside privately and discussed it with her before the service.
liberal
@Tlachtga:
Yeah, it does seem like a bizarre way to run a nation in a time with modern travel and communications.
Shinobi
I don’t understand why they are upset. I is church law that people who have committed serious sins are not able to receive communion until they are absolved. And you can’t get absolved if you are still a lesbian. There is no “my mother died” escape clause.
While I do agree that they should probably have said something beforehand about the issue, WHY IS SHE TRYING TO RECEIVE COMMUNION AT A CHURCH THAT THINKS SHE IS GOING TO HELL?
I don’t see why anyone is outraged that this guy followed church doctrine, unless they are unaware of said doctrine.
wrb
@gex:
The Catholic church has claimed universal dominion and been intolerant of dissenters for over 1000 years. It isn’t ordering them killed anymore but it is what it is. The mother chose to worship at a church that considers her daughter a sinner and a heretic and which does not offer communion to such people. Why was the daughter in line for communion? It sounds like she was trying to force the universal dominion of her values onto the Church. Two of a kind, bound to conflict.
Rafer Janders
@Tlachtga:
Actually, it’s not. This is what things like the Supreme Court is for. It used to be illegal in some states to marry outside your race; thanks to Loving v. Virginia, it’s been legal everywhere since 1967. It used to be illegal to engage in homosexual acts in thirteen states; thanks to Lawrence v. Texas, that’s overturned.
Actually, it is. Those examples above are unresponsive and irrelevant to the question of whether marriage as a governmental function will be left to the states or not. This is an issue of federalism, governed by the Tenth Amendment, which affirms the constitutional principle that “powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
Basically, to make marriage a federal and not a state matter, you would have to amend the Constitution, and to do that, you’d have to persuade the states to give up their own power over marriage. Not going to happen in the real world.
Rafer Janders
@harlana:
also wondering, are annullments “not for everybody” – i mean, is it harder for an ordinary schmuck to get an annullment than somebody who has power, influence & $ like Newt?
Oh yes. Yes indeed. The more power and money you have, the more bites at the “hey, it wasn’t a REAL marriage-marriage” you get.
wrb
@Comrade Dread:
I make the supposition that she knows the rules because her mother’s a Catholic. I once took Catholic communion by mistake at a girlfriend’s church. After an hour of mimicking the crowd bouncing up and down it was natural to follow them when they all formed into a line. It was clear that the priest thought something was wrong and I’ve wondered why he gave me communion anyway. Only today, from this thread, have I learned that he wasn’t allowed to object once I was in line.
Rafer Janders
@Shinobi:
And you can’t get absolved if you are still a lesbian.
And yet under Church law, there is no such thing as “a lesbian.” Since if there were, the Church would have to recognize that lesbianism is an inborn orientation and not an act. Lesbian sex is immoral, acting on a lesbian attraction is immoral, but merely experiencing lesbian feelings is no more a sin than it is for any other Catholic who feels, but does not act on, lustful thoughts.
Rafer Janders
@liberal:
Sure, it is. But it’s baked into the Constitution. Absent amending the Constitution, or the Supreme Court overturning 200 plus years of settled jurisprudence on the matter, those things are not going to change.
Full of Woe
PROBABLY BECAUSE SHE’S AT HER MOTHER’S FUNERAL AND IT’S PART OF THE SERVICE.
I have a lot of sympathy for her. If she grew up Catholic and being Catholic is still important to her, I imagine she found ways to continue attending services and participating in her church community without tripping across situations like this one. Plus, how was she supposed to know that asshole was going to ambush her with it at the fricking communion rail?
I’m not saying I think it makes sense for someone who’s gay to be an active Catholic, but I can see where, if it’s really important to someone, a little self-delusion might come into play. It’s not like every Catholic woman who uses contraception stays up late fretting about whether her priest is going to find out.
stratplayer
@WyldPirate: I was being facetious. I sing in the choir because I’m a musician and I take communion because I’m a lifelong cultural Episcopalian and that’s just what we do, irrespective of our widely divergent beliefs. It’s an expression of love and fellowship among good people. Anglicanism is a huge tent with plenty of room for agnostic rationalists like me. My priest knows exactly where I stand intellectually but wouldn’t dream of turning me or anyone else away from the altar rail. We’re exactly what Santorum despises about mainline Protestant Christianity.
Terry
Priest did a rude kind of thing like that at our prenuptial meeting, 6 days before our weeding in 1983. My wife screamed and ran out of the room and out of the church while I was blistering his hide. She never went back to mass and had previously been regular. One of the best things that ever happened to me.
Paul in KY
@gex: I’m saying she doesn’t have to be (herself) in ANY church & can still consider herself a Christian. I understand she had to attend the church her mother was having the funeral at. That doesn’t mean she has to be a member of that church where the POS priest is.
I think you are misunderstanding my comment.
cckids
@geg6: Best wishes & good thoughts to you both. I’ve been there too many times. Peace.
Rafer Janders
@Full of Woe:
I’m not saying I think it makes sense for someone who’s gay to be an active Catholic, but I can see where, if it’s really important to someone, a little self-delusion might come into play.
Let’s also remember that for most people, they identify as Catholic before they identify as gay. Children are baptized as birth, they’re brought to church and Sunday school while very young, etc. Only later do they start to develop sexual feelings and realize they are gay. So it’s very hard to expect people to suddenly drop their life-long religious identity once they acquire their sexual identity.
Origuy
@MattR: Note that the guy isn’t a priest. He’s a minister of the Christ Tabernacle Missionary Baptist church. I suspect that it is one of those semi-independent churches that split off from other Baptist churches when someone gets a hair up their ass about the minister, the choir director, or the treasurer. The article says that they are affiliated with the Southern Baptists, but the national organization doesn’t have any control over individual congregations.
I suspect the Holy Jesus Tabernacle Missionary Baptist Church will be starting up soon.
MattR
@Origuy: Thanks for the correction. Still pretty disgusting to see any Church’s priorities laid out like that.
Karen
Is Opus Dei Catholicsm considered to be the norm now and not the extreme?
RalfW
This part is just heartbreaking:
How tragic that she’s internalized the Church’s virulet homophobia so that she thought she let her mother down. No no no. That bigoted, self-aggrandizing priest let her mother, her family and the church community down. Big time.
Stranded Northerner
What happened at the funeral doesn’t surprise me in the least. Twenty years ago, the priest told everyone at my grandfather’s funeral that the Lutherans in attendance couldn’t receive Communion because they living in sin for rejecting Mother Church!
The family (go figure) decided to hold Great-Grandma’s funeral in a more liberal parish a few years later…
Nate
The problem isn’t the priest or the Catholic Church, it’s Christianity itself.
The bible has a few nice things to say about helping the poor and being nice to people. It also has some pretty heinous things to say about homosexuals and women and non-christians. When you call yourself a Christian, you’re sort of agreeing to take all the baggage along with all the good stuff.
It’s fine to think of the bible as a funny little self-help guide, like Aesop’s Fables or the Tao te Ching, but why anyone treats this document written by itinerant sheep-herders 2000 years ago as an awesome moral guide for the modern world is beyond me.
Shinobi
@Full of Woe: I have gone to church approximately 100 times since I realized I was bisexual in high school. I used to cantor several masses a week, and now I still have to go when I visit home or when I sing a wedding. In that time I have not received communion, largely because it would be disrespectful of the religion to do so. Communion is not a required part of the mass, and usually there are a number of people who sit out for whatever reason.
I see your point but I just don’t have as much sympathy as I should for people whose delusions are shattered. I guess I’m just surprised that anyone is surprised that a priest is an asshole.
WaterGirl
@geg6: I am late to this post. Is your John out of surgery yet? Hopefully surgery went well and he will be on the road to recovery.
KS in MA
@greennotGreen: Preach it!
sal
I’m always amazed at the outrage Catholics can muster against what other people do with their bodies, but at most give a “Yeah, maybe that’s wrong, but…” to capital punishment. Last I looked, that’s still against doctrine, but I don’t see clerical frothing against politicians and parishioners who support the death penalty.
trex
[The author writing under the name] Paul in the first letter to the Corinthians (I Corinthians 11:29) warns against participating in the Eucharist in an “unworthy” manner, and this is one of the verses on which the Catholic Church bases its theology of the Eucharist.
However, even acknowledging that there is dispute over what constitutes “unworthiness” among believers, by its very nature the warning reveals that individuals will approach that act with their souls in varying states of moral approbation and that there were no “Communion Police” in apostolic times denying participation to putative sinners, nor is any such office prescribed or recommended in that document. Clearly the responsibility and consequences of receiving Communion rest with the individual.
Having said that, the Church recognizes itself as the sole authority on
religiousspiritualpastoralpoliticalfashionALL matters, so appealing to Scripture on issues like this is a mug’s game.Privatize the Profits! Socialize the Costs!
Jesus must not have been too upset about homosexuality or abortion. He totally failed to mention either one in the entire New Testament.
However, Mr. Christ DID choose to enter into the debate about public prayer.
But you’ll never hear Bible thumpers quoting Matthew 6:5.
stevestory
No sympathy from me, sister. If I go to the Kick You in the Balls club, and they kick me in the balls, I don’t demand that the chief ball-kicker be replaced.
Derrrr….
grandpa john
@Nate: Citations please
Heliopause
And contrary to scripture, in that the Jesus character ministered to the sinful, even ones who had committed grievous sins just minutes before. See also the Samaritan woman at the well, the thief on the cross, the calling of tax collectors, etc.
grandpa john
@trex: Well we Methodists have solved the communion problem, everyone in attendance is invited to partake of communion. Young, old, children, visitors all can participate, no communion police needed.
Fax Paladin
So she’s, what? Supposed to boycott her mother’s funeral because it’s officiated by a Catholic? Not take communion even though that would itself be making a scene (albeit one that wouldn’t make the national news)?
I was raised Catholic. In the last 20 years I’ve been in a Catholic church perhaps a dozen times; in the last 5 or 10 years, exactly once: I was visiting my family and my sister, who usually took Mom to church, wasn’t there, so I drove Mom instead. I took communion, because I was in line anyway to steady Mom and the white lie seemed easier than potentially upsetting her — and potentially making a scene.
I’m sure you folks mocking the daughter think I’m lame for not standing up for my convictions, and I probably am, but there’s also the question of picking your battles.
The church I grew up in had its awfulness but seemed to be headed in the right direction — then JPII and Benedict yanked it backwards, and started purging the people I respected from the church. I’ve soured on organized religion in general for most of my adult life, but the church is community as well as officialdom, and that’s why a lot of Catholics stay Catholic even when they disagree with the Vatican; they stay in the church because that’s where their friends and families are.
Those congregations are often a lot more accepting than the hierarchy — and it’s their acceptance that matters. The folks behind the Second Vatican Council had a lot better handle on that idea that the current hierarchy does, but the current hierarchy is principally concerned with restoring the centralized worldly power that the Vatican used to have, and eradicating every atom of Vatican II in almost exactly the way that the modern GOP desires the razing of the New Deal (which is why the GOP and the bishops are finding such common cause, I think).
In any event I find the pointing and laughing at the daughter to be extremely irritating, and in its own way just as sanctimonious as the priest’s attempt to shame her as publicly as he could.
Herbal Infusion Bagger
I wonder what happened to all the cool, humble, devout Jesuits and Franciscans I met while at Catholic school. They were true men of God. I’m not a practising Catholic anymore, but they inspired me and affected how I live my life.
This prig who showed no compassion, is not a man of God. Is it just the diocesean priests who are douchebags?
beergoggles
@Fax Paladin: Well her mom’s dead, so I doubt she’s running her own funeral from beyond. So the daughter could just use a funeral service to run the funeral instead of relying on a church to do it. That would also keep her money out of the RCC hands and she could just donate all the saved money to some rape victims and help ease some of the additional damage the church has fomented.
Rafer Janders
@beergoggles:
Most people prefer not to use their mother’s funerals to make a political point that their mother may even not have agreed with. Your mileage may vary, though.
Rita R.
@Soonergrunt:
Word. Distill it down to The Golden Rule and “Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers that you do unto me” and you’ve got all you really need.
KrisWV
@rumpole: I suppose, but here’s the thing — we all have access to the same texts that are the foundation of their religion. And we’re all the same species. When I object to this priest’s behavior, it’s not be cause I’m American. It’s because I’m a human and whatever Christ this “priest” pretends to speak for is not one that I can find in the Bible, or in my Christian soul.
kuvasz
beergoggles
@Rafer Janders: My mom got kicked out of her church for marrying outside her race. She never had any sympathy for organized religion since and it served as a valuable lesson: Life is politics and a point is a point. Using a lump of dead flesh for it is better than creating misery for the living.
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q)
@geg6: Good vibes for you both.