I liked this comment a lot:
Kinsey is a prime example of how the Democrats lost their edge by the very presence of such weaklings in the Party leadership. That edge was honed by the Labor struggle where Labor’s enemies attacked them with guns, knives, and bricks in order to kill or intimidate them. Once you see that your adversary is willing to kill you, negotiations take on a whole new, and more serious meaning. Folks like Kinsey along with most liberal pundits have never had their heads bashed in simply for demanding economic justice and as such look at these sorts of things as esoteric excercises or thought experiments, not things that actually affect human beings.
The decline of the Democratic Party runs parallel with the loss of Labor’s leadership in the Party. Now, instead of having negotiators whose heads were once busted up by the conservatives on the picket or protest line, and know their opposition precisely for what is it and can do, the current crop of Democratic leadership and pundits act like cringing, nuetered dogs when confronted by their adversaries.
Just quit being such pussies, the Right does not care one whit about civility, and they look at any attempt to compromise as a weakness of character, and self-reflection in their enemies not as a virtue, but as a vice to be exploited.
cynickal
Sounds like a reason to push community organizers to the forefront of Democratic politics. Having shoes that have actually walked on real streets is crucial to understand the necessity of progress.
BGinCHI
I like it too, since it registers class, which we suck at in this country. We suck at it discursively, btw, not actually having the conflicts. We have the shit out of those.
Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity
Agree 100%.
Learn to punch back or die. The Republicans are not playing.
Of course, Democrats would rather take the high road. I do have hopes that kind of self-destructive bullshit thinking will fall by the wayside sooner or later. Hopefully before a lot of people end up dead.
I expect this to be followed with a bunch of posts about how we “must be better than them”. Posts made by useful idiots who don’t even know they’re at war.
EDIT: Here’s how you’ll know when Dems have finally gotten a clue and are taking it seriously. When we have our own O’Keefes. Our own Hannitys, our own Limbaughs, our own Breitbarts. And not just one of each, but legions of them. That’s how you go to war, people. Bring guns to a gunfight, but make sure you bring more than the other guy.
MikeJ
The flag is really palest pink
it’s not as red as people think
WJS
And give up the right to be morally superior to people who have no morals? Nevah!
scav
Confuse them by being both, at random times. Stab them with the fish knife over crumpets and Darjeeling.
Raven
Fuckin A! Fight the fuck back!
Jager
Since I’m a old white guy, I have fond memories of when the Dems were the loud, sweaty people who were constantly raising hell.
EconWatcher
Well, yes, you have to fight, but sometimes the best way to fight is the way Ali did against Foreman in the Rumble in the Jungle, letting your opponent thrash himself out, then going in to finish him off when he’s gasping for air and has made a spectacle of himself. The President sometimes shows that kind of tactical sense and timing.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Well, obviously no one can criticize Limbaugh until the Obama SuperPAC indignantly returns Bill Maher’s million dollars.
The table is now set for Serious Discussion.
Lev
Civility is what occurs when everyone agrees. That’s all. Trying to get it when there isn’t an underlying consensus is bound to fail.
Spaghetti Lee
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Well, obviously, now that Romney has given back all the money Limbaugh donated-wait, you mean the advertising leaving Limbaugh are private companies, doing so of their own accord for business reasons? And there’s no fucking equivalence at all? Well then.
Lev
@Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity: Eh, I disagree. Those guys are hurting their own side more than anything. Young voters have seen what these assholes are capable of, and they want no part of it. That’s why they’re so inclined toward the Dems.
Honestly, just telling the truth about what conservatives want and what they’re doing to get with no ambiguity it is damning enough. Let’s try that.
capt
Say what you will the GOP is in tatters and dying from self-inflicted wounds.
When your enemy is shooting himself in the foot, stay out of the way.
Of course many of the “cons” were abused as children and confuse principle with intransigence it is also no reason to just be an A-hole because they understand that.
Treat them like children, hold their hand and tell them when they do wrong. Violence, whether physical, verbal or even psychological is never the answer even if effective.
If we can’t be better and show them by example we fail. IMHO
Steve
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Absolutely identical?! Good God.
pete
Ah, Kinsley is not, was not, and never has been part of the left. He may have claimed, and even thought, that he was — but he wasn’t, isn’t, and never will be. He was always the kind of “moderate” who thinks anyone to his left is beyond the pale; but he’ll go to dinner with damn near anyone to his right, and engage them in polite conversation. On top of this, his shtick was contrarianism! Gosh, he’ll make an argument for anything you might expect him not to. Principles? What is this thing of which you speak?
Violet
Completely agree. People have to be willing to fight or we’ll lose every time.
In a related move, I’m feeling like I did something good today. Was in the car during Limbaugh’s show and decided to listen to hear what sponsors were still advertising. In my area it seems like mostly local advertisers, the kind where another wingnut talk show host says, “I’m [wingnut talk show host] and I’m here to talk to you about [product].” One of those was for a home improvement business that sells something I’m thinking of buying. So I decided to call them and let them know I won’t be buying from them if they continue to advertise on Limbaugh’s show.
The woman who answered the phone was completely caught off guard by me saying I wouldn’t be buying their product if they continued advertising on Limbaugh’s show. She said the owner was in a meeting, so I asked her if she thought it was appropriate that the host of the show their business was advertising on called a woman a slut and a prostitute and said all women who got birth control covered by insurance should post videos online of themselves having sex. She was utterly taken aback and stumbled out something like, “No, no I don’t!”
I then told her I was actively looking to buy the product their company sells (true) and was considering their company because I’d heard good things about them (true) but that I could NOT buy from them if they insisted on advertising on Limbaugh’s show and that it was a deal breaker. And I hoped they’d reconsider their advertising buy because I’d like to be able to consider them for my purchase.
She said she’d definitely pass along the message to the owner and sounded very upset by my call. It felt good to fight back. I’ll call another advertiser tomorrow. I don’t want to let any of them think this will all blow over.
chrismealy
Kinsley isn’t 100% bad. He used to wear standard issue NHS glasses, just like Elvis Costello. But that was years ago, before he married a super rich Microsoftie.
Citizen Alan
There’s a wonderfully archaic word which for some reason springs to mind whenever I contemplate Michael Kinsley: pantywaist. (Which, btw, is not sexist, as it refers to old-fashioned children’s underwear.) I would very much like to see that word come back into vogue.
Marcellus Shale, Public Dick
@capt:
i think you left out the part about winning.
Debg
Can’t we fight tough without using sexist names? I don’t mind fighting, but I can’t get inspired by a call to stop being a p**ssy. How can I read that, as a liberal woman possessed of said body part, and not cringe? I’m asking, not yelling, about this.
Davis X. Machina
@Jager: It’s too bad a lot of them were wearing string ties and white linen suits at the time….
David Koch
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I don’t like GOS, but Markos did try to do something sharp with Operation Kaos and all the big mouths who scream for fighting dems fainted.
So there you have it. On one hand, blogs call for fights, on the other hand, the minute someone starts a fight, the progressive betters wring their hands, clutch their pearls, and collapse on the fainting couch.
OzoneR
Once again, my criticism with this stuff is you’re not making an argument for governing, you’re making one for civil war.
If we’re fighting a civil war, let’s fucking fight one and stop being so dramatic about “taking the fight to our enemies” but then letting them run in elections against us.
If we’re fighting a civil war, we kill them. If we’re not, then we just have to make our arguments and let the chips all where they may.
David Koch
@pete:
Of course he was part of the left. How can we forget. For years he was the editor of even the liberal The New Republic.
Jager
@Davis X. Machina: True except for the labor guys. I’d take a little LBJ “Nut Cuttin” from time to time, how about you?
David Koch
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Doncha just love how even the liburel TPM says both sides do it.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@David Koch: Marshall could have taught hit-baiting to Arianna Huffington, if she hadn’t been born with an almost supernatural ability to draw attention to herself in any medium or situation she happens to trip over.
Egg Berry
@Debg:
Agreed. Did we all know that tomorrow (the 8th) is international woman’s day?
Davis X. Machina
@Jager: I was thinking more of the fellows we keep naming carriers after — good Democrats all….
Tonal Crow
@Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity:
We don’t need to lie and bullshit to win, and if we do lie and bullshit, we’ll eventually begin to believe the lies and bullshit, which will turn us into something not unlike the Republicans.
However, we do need to use rhetoric that engages the emotions — not just the rational mind — to win. It’s not enough to say “H.R. 20230923 will cut income taxes for those earning less than the 2009 median income”. We’ve got to say, “If you earn less than $xxxx, we’re raising your paycheck so you can support your family! Meanwhile, Republicans want to soak you to give away the store to the bankers, fatcats, and Romneys of the world.”
SiubhanDuinne
Michael Kinsley and Mitt Romney are both alumni of Cranbrook Schools. Coincidence? I think NOT.
fasteddie9318
MOORE AWARD! MOORE AWARD! I’M TELLING SULLY ON YOU GUYS!
muddy
My son says, “The trouble with those kids is that they’re sheltered.” He didn’t say it about this, but it fits.
Gazella
Agree @DebG
Speaking as a woman, and therefore speaking as pussy, I don’t like my courage or my ladyparts being called into question when boys are trying to call each other out. I know that [many of] you boys LIKE pussy, so why are you being denigrating toward it & me?
Omnes Omnibus
@fasteddie9318: I dare you!
pete
@David Koch: Ah, neo-liberal, OK, well, sure, correct, absolutely; my point, precisely, and yours too I hope. Or to put it another way: Kinsley was never a leftist, but he sometimes used to play one on TV, very badly.
Boots Day
Kinsley’s problem, like a lot of Village insiders, is that he sees this stuff as sport, as if people root for one party or another like they root for the Steelers. And he’s the referee.
They have forgotten that this stuff matters to people’s lives. If Limbaugh gets the GOP base to think that Obama wants to government to pay for everyone’s contraceptives, then there’s a non-zero chance that no one’s insurance will ever cover contraception. That’s something that will affect actual human American lives, primarily working-class women – a group that doesn’t get its voice heard very often. Not nearly as much as Limbaugh gets his heard.
No, I don’t feel any glee that Limbaugh is getting his comeuppance. I feel horrified that he’s managed to shift the national conversation by lying to huge numbers of American citizens. That’s what this whole issue is about.
rikyrah
this comment is on point.
on the mark.
we are dealing with sociopaths..the entire lot of them.
so, why pretend anything else?
harlana
clicks “Like” button :)
harlana
@rikyrah: i don’t know. in regular society, most of them would be behind bars
harlana
too bad more of them can’t be more like Dean, with his rapidfire delivery of the facts, he never hemmed and hawed at any question or challenge and he made the most of his airtime
(oh, but he screamed one time…)
OzoneR
@Tonal Crow:
The answer I usually get in this scenario is “what about the welfare queens? illegal immmigrants?” or “you’re right, but abortion”
I never really felt the issue with the Democratic Party was its message. I always felt it was that too many who agree with its message don’t vote for him, so it leaves the party confused and disorganized. It’s hard to win message wars when you’re winning them but still losing
harlana
i think some Dems, at least in red states, are held hostage by their republican and right wing neighbors, friends, coworkers, family – we are steeped in their bullshit. And we have to listen to their shit whether we like it or not. Dems here are almost apologetic about what they are. You’d think they’d be pissed. but i guess the Laurens County GOP purity test kinda shows what kind of shit we are up against down here. :p
gumbo
@Debg et al
100% agree with the call out on the language. As a woman, I was alienated from the message of the post the moment I read that phrase. And I agree with the message – we do need to fight back and fight back hard! We just don’t need to denigrate half of the population while doing it.
Besides, you try giving birth through your pussy, and then tell me it’s a good metaphor for anything weak.
OzoneR
Like, for example, everyone who agrees with Democrats on taxing the rich and universal healthcare and such. Many of them will continue to defend their votes for Republicans cause of things like this;
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/michigan-woman-still-collecting-food-stamps-winning-1-201751693.html
PTirebiter
THIS. Learn this and there are any number of ways to politely invite them to try the salted dicks.
OzoneR
@harlana:
To this point. I was at a party last year where this one Obama-hating friend was like “I agree with x,y,z but I won’t vote for Obama, I hate him, he’s a pompous asshole who wants to be a celebrity and not a president” (for the record, he hated Hillary too, and Kerry, and is a Republican, but agrees with almost everything I do)
Two of my Obama-supporting friends turned around and said “yeah, you’re right, he kinda is pompous and likes the celebrity limelight”
How do you expect the Democratic Party to fight when their voters don’t even stand up for their own president against personal bullshit like that?
dollared
@Citizen Alan: I was landlord to one of Kinsley’s Microsoft interns, one time long ago. Kinsley showed up to go hiking one Saturday in walking shorts that were too short and too tight, and a gotta-be-JCPenney white T shirt. Just soooooooo geeky.
OzoneR
@harlana:
He also never got elected to anything outside the state of Vermont, and never really got much accomplished policy-wise.
If we’re forced to have a fact-delivering, fighter with gets his message across, but can never actually get himself in a position to do anything with it- what good does it do?
Mark K
agree but the MSM isn’t going to allow, at least often enough, macho Democrats on T.V. thus you have E.J. Dionne or Clarence Page on all the time but people like Alan Grayson and Howard Dean are sent to the back of the line. The perfect example was HANNITY and colmes.
David Koch
@dollared:
Dollared I didn’t know you were part of the 1%. No wonder you have Obama so much.
OzoneR
And then you have shit like this; maybe worthy of a thread of its own;
Sometimes, the left just doesn’t know how to win anything without first undermining themselves with their principles.
debg
@Boots Day: Yes! Yes! Yes! I’m with you on every point.
I’m about to visit my Limbaugh-loving dad for the first time in a year. He’s always got the kitchen radio on. And we’re going to have to have an uncomfortable conversation about his habit, because I’ve been crying for a week at the horror of it all.
debg
@Citizen Alan: That’s a much better word. I’ll help you (though it may take long involved conversations about its lack of sexist referent).
debg
@OzoneR: Yep. And another civil war would suck.
D0n Camillo
@OzoneR:
Good catch, OzoneR. I skimmed it the first time, and didn’t realize Ms. Bennett was a Democrat. I thought she was just a partisan Republican being quoted on the subject.
OzoneR
@debg:
Yes, and adding to my point. I often see excuses like “well they’ll never vote for us anyway”
Well there appears to be 47% of the country that fits that category, so we’re still until we can widdle that down past 40% and into the 30%s like we did in the 1930s.
OzoneR
@D0n Camillo: I remembered she ran for the House in Pennsylvania, I think the Lehigh Valley seat.
jefft452
@OzoneR: “It’s hard to win message wars when you’re winning them but still losing”
Meh…
Limbaugh is still losing sponsors
The number he lost is far less important than the fact that he is still losing new ones each day
This aint a flash in the pan where a few skittish companies panicked and pulled ads, but instead marketing departments all across the country are realizing that for every dittohead who buys their product, they lose three non-dittoheads
This is a major shift on par with the fall of Joe McCarthy
All due credit to Sandra Fluke, those who stood up to SBK, etc etc
But as somebody who leans more toward the firebagger end of the firebagger to obot continuum,
I’d like to say Obama Akbar!
His call to Sandra Fluke was the first time an elected Dem showed solidarity with a victim of the right wing smear machine in a loooong time
jefft452
@OzoneR: “He also never got elected to anything outside the state of Vermont”
Pretty high bar you set
There are a grand total of 5 living people in the whole country who have won multi-state elections at some point in their lives
Midnight Marauder
@OzoneR:
So…what did you do in this situation, out of curiosity? Did you attempt to refute the bullshit and lead by example, or did you just shrug your shoulders and party on?
I’m genuinely curious.
Rafer Janders
@Midnight Marauder:
I’ve heard this thing before myself. My answer was “yeah, that’s true. People who are pompous and love the celebrity limelight usually move to Chicago to work as community organizers with the inner-city poor, and then they get themselves elected to the Illinois state legislature. Only a real drama queen would do something like that.”
Then again, sarcasm often doesn’t work on the stupid.
OzoneR
@Midnight Marauder:
They usually end up walking away or saying “I don’t want to talk about this anymore! I hate this stuff, Did you see those pics of Snooki?”
PTirebiter
@OzoneR: odds of her winning the million dollar prize is over three million to one. The odds of her becoming anecdotal evidence of pervasive food stamp fraud would close the betting window. Slam Dunk. Of course 4 billion in food stamps for oil execs is capitalism.
OzoneR
@jefft452:
and if one of the 5 were able to cut through the bullshit and get people to believe in left wing policies, lets run him for President now, fuck Obama.
OzoneR
@jefft452:
Yes, he is. The left won one. Is he losing listeners? Once he is, then the left has really won.
Otherwise, Limbaugh’s sponsors will be back when the shit blows over.
jefft452
@OzoneR: :Is he losing listeners?”
dont matter
a couple million Americans are dittoheads, always will be
but when being a dittohead repulses more people then it attractes a few million dittoheads dont have influence
and no, the advertisers wont come back,
if they had all left at once then I might agree with you, but when its drip, drip, drip that is a symptom of the middle of the road not being way over on the right anymore
AND
Just like when the Gov of Kansas got into a pissing contest with a teenage girl and lost,
Every time they threaten and cant deliver, more people fight back
jefft452
@OzoneR: dont understand what you are trying to say
very few people win elections outside of thier state because except for President (and VP if you broadminded) nobody runs outside of thier state
Jimbo316
There are a lot of Democrats who have worked hard in difficult circumstances and have had public service jobs like Americorps, Peace Corps, even some of the military as well as non-organized labor (because hey had no choice) in the private sector. But these folks, and I come from that background, don’t get the glamor spotlight in the Democratic dialogue, at least in these blogs. As a result, it can appear to some that Dems are all rich, liberal cocktail drinkers. This is ludicrous. Kinsley is not by any stretch the spokesperson for the average Democrat, I would aver.
James E. Powell
The images of brawny labor leaders forcing issues or LBJ arm-wrestling congressmen to make deals are nostalgia. Today’s fights take place on television.
When I think of the Fighting Dems I wish I’d seen, I think of how different the health care debate might have been if we had had a few weeks of congressional testimony from widows & orphans. Or congressional investigations into insurance company practices pursued with the same zeal as Republican investigations of the Clintons. Or how financial reform might have been easier to get passed if the house and senate had plastered Wall Street with subpoenas. Instead, both industries donated enough money so that theirs were really the only voices Americans heard.
The Democratic leadership, since the 80s, has been less concerned about taking on the malefactors of great wealth and more concerned about getting their campaign donations.
RP
The comment has some visceral appeal, and there’s certainly some truth in the idea that the party, especially the leadership and leftwing members of the media, have become too divorced from its working class roots. But I’m troubled by the fact that the commenter appears to be buying into the rightwing and media frame that the Dems are the party of egghead wimps sipping chardonnay and driving volvos (and wearing hipster fedoras). I’m a well-educated, non-working class democrat in a coastal city (inside the beltway in fact), and I sure as s*** am not going to apologize for that fact. We don’t win by saying “yeah, you’re right…we suck because we’ve lost touch with our salt of the earth, working class roots.”
Moreover, I just don’t buy the idea that the democrats have lost ground over the last 30-40 years largely because our leaders are wimps. I’m sure that plays a role, but it’s probably a minor one. The shifts in ideology are the result of major long term economic and demographic changes, not guys like Kinsley (who, as others have noted, isn’t much of a liberal).
Batocchio
I agree about the civility crap, and fighting hard, and all that. As for Kinsley specifically – Kinsley has always been an establishment contrarian versus a Democrat per se, and hit or miss with his observations. He can be genuinely insightful, and he can also be foolish. The guy’s also got Parkinson’s. I agree that labor should be much better represented, but not everyone who’s pro-labor is built like a linebacker, either. Plus, unions are not as powerful and plentiful as once they were, regardless of labor’s control of the party. (A key factor in conservative/plutocrat ascendancy, as detailed in Winner Take-All Politics.) Oh, and maybe all those Reagan Democrats shouldn’t have been so dumb, and in some cases racist, to vote against their own economic interests. Dems definitely need to fight much harder, and market themselves better, but the idiocy of the populace is also a serious factor.
OzoneR
@jefft452:
Unless you count national primaries.
OzoneR
@jefft452:
and a couple million is all that’s needed to keep him relevant
We’ll see. I’m willing to bet most of them will be back in six months, and the left won’t even make a peep.
Nutella
@OzoneR:
This was apparently a talking point handed down to all the troops. I was vociferously informed by a taxi driver in Montevideo of all places, I guy who doesn’t live on this continent and doesn’t speak English, that Obama would never win the election because he was a foreigner, a Muslim, a negro, and arrogant (‘no humilde’, not humble, he said).
How the hell does anyone anywhere expect that someone running for the US presidency would be humble? Surely that’s something that requires, at minimum, a great deal of self-confidence? And I’ve never heard anyone demand that any Republican candidates for the presidency be humble. Certainly none of the current Republican candidates are distinguished by their modesty, although they all have a lot to be modest about.
I guess humble is the opposite of uppity and that gets people riled up.
RalfW
I skimmed the Kinsley piece of crap this afternoon while eating at a cafe and reading a used Star Tribune here in Minnnosnow-ta.
What hogwash. “Pols declare that they are distraught, offended, outraged by some stray remark…”
Fuck you, Michael Kinsley. Rush said horrible, creepy things about Fluke for three days. 3 days of venom and attack.
There is no way, other than lying, that you can call this extended spew of bile a “stray remark.”
So fuck off. Really. Go suckle at Charles Koch’s teat.
SW
Nail, head. And screw Kinsley. Really. He can grease himself up all he wants but all he’s going to get out of it is some richly deserved Santorum.
Pococurante
I thought of Juan Cole when I read that.
Pococurante
@Batocchio:
It seemed to me he became more harsh and strident since he announced this. I figure it’s worth cutting him some slack and I am one of those who never considered him favorable to the Democratic party or its platforms.
What Have The Romans Ever Done for Us? (formerly MarkJ)
I think the essential point is that in the 1960s the Democratic party became fractured along class lines. You had the old guard labor guys but the new college graduate “radicals” largely split from them because they weren’t going into working class jobs – they were going into professional careers. Their economic calculus was much different from that of the labor union guys.
Flash forward to today and all of us in professional careers can see the writing on the wall. Either we join with the blue collar folks or the super wealthy will take it ALL. There’s no such thing as economic security for the professional class anymore. 30-40 years of Republican economics have driven the fractured coalition back together.