John nailed it this morning:
There’s a war on. Shut the fuck up, get out of the way, or grab a weapon. But stop lecturing me about so-called intemperate speech.
The backlash against Komen, the Rush advertiser boycotts, the constant repetition of the phrase “the war on women”, it’s all working. How do I know it’s working? Because Villagers are starting to bitch about it.
They bitched in 2004 when the left grew a pair and start criticizing Dear Leader Codpiece, but by 2007, the public agreed with the dirty fucking hippies. There’s a lesson there: for all the bullshit about “Bush derangement syndrome”, he left office with as one of the most unpopular presidents in American history.
poor cole can’t catch a break. lolz.
The arc of the moral universe is long but it bends towards me punching a racist Republican asshole in the face.
There. I thought that needed an update.
Yup, worth repeating–twice daily or as directed by your physician.
Also, too, Benen slams the “both sides do it” meme today.
It’s high time you trolled for a second Moore Award nom.
Civility in the face of evil is not a virtue, it is a moral failing.
@BGinCHI: you’ve just won the thread. hahahahahaha
@beltane: Needs more punching.
Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity
I won’t be happy until the only thing that we hear from The Village are pleas to be allowed to continue to live.
Maybe they’ll wise up and stop playing games with democracy before that happens. I very much doubt it.
Does the death of Breitbart fit in somewhere?
Or too soon?
Hey I think it’s time for a new thread
@ABL 2.0: ZOMG VAST MEDIA CONSPIRACY TO STOMP ON COLE’S POSTS.
Well, I wasn’t really looking for a Cole post at this hour, I thought 3a.m. was more his thing.
Happiness is knowing that Andrew Sullivan is writing “more in sorrow than in anger” posts about lefty outrage, while not having to read them.
By the way, can’t this blog have a “More Award” (in honor of Sir. Thomas More) to be given to the sanctimonious blowhard of the day?
Can you give us examples or links?
Andrew Sullivan really is a little weeping willow, isn’t he?
I think it’s time for both sides to stop the war on women.
How do I know we’re winning the message war right now? Trolls have been out Ratfucking in record numbers. Someone is terrified of Dem voter enthusiasm right now.
comrade scott's agenda of rage
I always trot out this Steve Gilliard quote when these kinds of posts are made:
I suppose we could update it to include “Villagers”.
Funny how the pearl-clutching about ‘intemperate speech’ only comes when the Left starts complaining. About things like, male politicians forcing a woman to have a eight inch piece of plastic shoved up her hoo-hah if she’s seeking a legal medical procedure. Or bitching that if sluts weren’t having all that sex we wouldn’t have to worry about contraception.
Geez, and they wonder why people are sounding ‘intemperate.’
Heard this morning on the teevee that Jr.Bush is polling higher than any of the current Candidates.
I hate to nitpick, but Bush left office with the lowest rating, bar none. He wasn’t simply one of the worst, no, he was THE worst.
See Charles Lane today. I’m not linking to it, though.
“If this be uncivility, make the most of it.”
Patrick Henry, adjusted for inflation.
@Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity:
For the Villagers I have only five words: Sherman’s March to the Sea. It wasn’t very polite, but it got the job done. QE-fucking-D.
I am of the same bent.
That’s because he’s staying quiet and keeping his mug off the TV. For all the current Republican candidates, there seems to be a direct relationship between visibility and poor approval ratings. I’m sure that Shrub would be the same, except more so, if he were shameless enough to show his face in public.
Kathy in St. Louis
Attention: There has been an update to the Golden Rule. Formerly, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” has been change to “Do unto others as you see them doing unto others”.
In the case of Komen,Limbaugh and so many of the haters out there, I think revision works nicely.
How do the butthurt wingnut Villagers expect us to be civil after what they caused Jared Lee Loughner to do to Rep. Gabrielle Giffords with their EXTREME rhetoric!!!1!!
Giffords Recovering, But Civil Discourse Hasn’t
Speaking of leftists speaking intemperately, there’s a hilarious diary at the GOS here about women, and some men, flooding the Facebook page of one of the Dildos Mandating Dildos (hat tip C.P.) in the VA leg asking him, since he’s such an expert on women’s health, to provide advice on their personal gynecological problems, questions mostly phrased in the most graphic terms possible. I think this approach has a lot of potential in fighting the war against women. I’d love to see women show up at town halls for these douchebags with the same types of questions.
@El Tiburon: In the past couple weeks, maybe the only thing more satisfying than watching Rush get his has been watching Breitbart’s proteges’ ham-handed attempts at carrying on his “legacy”
It’s effing easy to be “civil” and to whine about “civil discourse” when you’re effing rich and your only fear is the barbarians at the gate.
I still respect both Gergen and Sullivan, because we need their voices, but on “civility” they are assholes and hypocrites.
@Kathy in St. Louis:
I thought the new version was, “Do unto others before they get a chance to do unto you.” Sadly, my impression is that the only version that applies in our society is, “He who has the gold makes the rules.”
It seems he was so repulsive he even drove 5% sane.
I like John’s sentiments, but I quibble with the phrase “grab a weapon”. Unless it’s a metaphorical one.
I’m a little amazed James O’Keefe hasn’t tried to pants Fluke on the street yet. That flame out has definitely cost the right some momentum.
@patrick II: That 5% were upset that he was so liberal.
It is a metaphorical one.
Has anyone ever taken David Gergen seriously? Besides David Gergen, of course.
Mine Eyes have seen the glory of the Punching of Pundits;
We have mocked them to their faces, We have kicked them in the bits;
We will use the nasty boycott until all their sponsors quit!
BG is on the march.
Glory Glory in Chicago,
Intemprence Now and on the Morrow
Take them home in a Wheelbarrow
BG is on the march!
@DougJarvus Green-Ellis: You know “they” won’t see it that way.
BOTH SIDES DO IT!
I’m frankly amazed someone hasn’t gone all John Brown Harpers Ferry yet.
My slang is editorial
My weapons metaphorical
@scav: I was going to go streaking, but now that you made up a song, I’m going to go ahead and set some barricades on fire.
As soon as I can find a babysitter.
J. Michael Neal
This is what I object to. I have no problem with having a bunch of bomb throwers on the left who play rough with conservatives. That is a valuable process.
On the other hand, the insistence that everyone be a bomb thrower is appalling. That’s heading down the same road that the conservatives trod. Having some people who behave civilly is important both for immediate tactical reasons and long term strategic ones.
As an example I’ll take the criticism of Kevin Drum a few posts down. In discussing it, Zander tossed out the entire body of Drum’s writing in order to focus on one post in isolation. I’m sorry, but that’s bullshit. If you bother to read the whole blog, you’ll find a lot of support for Obama. Far more than you’ll find criticism. But insisting that he cheerlead every single time he writes a post, though, is insane.
He was responding to a particular article. It will almost always be the case that, when doing so, one writes about the places of disagreement. And that’s what happened.
I have no use for you fuckers that trash everyone who takes a different stylistic approach. Doug has a tendency to write this way in his posts, though he comes across as more nuanced when he responds in comments. John gets it sometimes and other times he loses his mind, but that’s typical of everything he does.
Having the people who will calmly discuss policy and governance is as important as having people that throw shit through the bars.
What a classic moment. On Sunday, Dame Peggy Noonan acknowledge there is “a horrible misogynistic war on women”.
Think about it. The heat is so intense, it even broke through Dame Peggy’s insulated, rarefied, cloistered, manicured bubble.
But even then her knee-jerk reaction was to blame the President and the left for the war on women: “I wish the President had had a real Sister Souljah moment and … said, ‘Wait a second, guys, left, right, and center, it’s getting horrible for women now. Let’s stop it.'”
Sullivan and Gergen whining about incivility? What’s next, a plutocrat whining that the rich are not influential enough?
Wait, already happened. Here’s Kenneth Griffin, “the CEO of the powerful hedge fund Citadel and deep-pocketed bank-roller of Republican causes.”
Being an oligarch is apparently a sacred duty handed down by the Founding Fathers.
I agree that we need to have a civil discussion. I just think that lying is a much worse crime against civility than pointing out another person’s lies, being a racist is a worse crime against civility than pointing out another person’s racism, etc. Those who tut-tut the nerve of anyone who points those things out are doing more to destroy polite society than ten times as many truth tellers.
@J. Michael Neal:
I like your comments sometimes, but honestly, if you and burnes say I’m wrong, I know I”m right. You’re the Sully and David Gergen of this joint.
@David Koch: She wants Obama to stop it??
That’s like trying to stop a bully by pleading with the ground to stop bruising the people who get knocked down.
God that woman is insufferable.
Considering who Peggy hangs out with, I’m sure she was a little surprised at the backlash. Contraception is one of those things you just don’t talk about in polite company. But once it comes out in the open, well… its one hell of a wedge issue.
Nah, they were just disappointed that he hadn’t gone far enough.
@BGinCHI: Can’t you take the boy with you as you go out on a rampage? Real learning experience, can’t start them too young, etc.
West of the Cascades
We need to keep punching until there are no racist Republican assholes to punch except for Breitbart’s disinterred corpse, and then dig it up and punch it. I want to punch this Kenneth Griffin guy at no. 46.
Are you on drugs?
@BGinCHI: Why do taxpayers have to subsidize your child care so you can have more violence!?!
@dmsilev: Pitchfork waving baby in a one of those holder things? Their hand-eye coordination isn’t great yet; might take an eye out (up to 4 within range). Maybe attach a camera to X-Ray so he’ll be the videographer.
More than a few of the Founding Fathers would probably agree wholeheartedly with that: remember, those guys thought you had to be male, white, and property-owning to be respectable enough to vote.
Thank God enough Americans, over the years, have realized that their model needed improvement.
J. Michael Neal
@DougJarvus Green-Ellis: Well, other than the fact that, unlike Sullivan or Gergen, we have actual professional experience in the fields we talk most about. The level of ignorance about finance that you and others display can be staggering at times. That you often rely upon the writings of people equally clueless, such as Taibbi, just reinforces the point.
@David Koch: Not just blame the president and build false equivalence between right and left — she also managed to get a completely irrelevant little jab at black people in there. Oh, well played, Vodkarina.
@dmsilev: Good idea. Now get your ass up here and help me. Stop in Pilsen and get some takeout on the way.
@Satanicpanic: Beat me to it. :)
Depends on how you define “on drugs.” Certainly my Flomax Rx would suggest “yes.” :-)
If they’re going to be on TV and representing and all, I prefer they not be insane. Neither are.
They’re both sadly wedded to the conservative narrative, but that’s OK. The GOP is doing a fine job of differentiation on their own.
@West of the Cascades:
We really need to make Oligarch Punching the new popular sport in place of Hippie Punching.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Obama is picking on women by calling Sandra Fluke on the phone? I saw Tweety playing the clip out of admiration for his old schoolboy crush, The Nooners, he didn’t play the above. That’s as nutty as the Dolphins thing. Booze is the charitable explanation.
I don’t have a link handy, but the WaPo house editorial and the Limbaugh fiasco complained that “both sides” engage in intemperate rhetoric because, among other things, there isn’t really a “war on women.” Really.
@Egg Berry: Pretty sure that at one time he also bragged about serving the Dubya administration, for a total of five preznits. Not mentioning that these days, I take it?
@BGinCHI: Tempting, but I’m afraid I have to work this evening. Would next Tuesday work for you for barricade burning?
I get a kick outta how Peggy acts as if she’s Reagan’s widow.
She always dresses in mourning and she weep as she recounts some mindless dribble she put on Reagan’s teleprompter.
@BGinCHI: Slacker. Layabout. Lollygagger. Ne’er-do-well. I can’t stop.
@dmsilev: I have pitchforks and torches that night, but Wednesday is free. My molotov cocktail party got postponed.
@shortstop: I’m rubber and you’re glue. But that nice kind of glue, not the mucilage kind. Ooh, Gorilla Glue.
In an earlier post John Cole used the phrase “reactionary lunatics.” This is incorrect. Palin is neither a reactionary or a lunatic, she is an idiot, which is notably different. For an example of a reactionary, we have Dick Armey. For an example of a lunatic, we have Gingrich.
@BGinCHI: That might work. I’m slated to burn some people in effigy late Wednesday afternoon, but that should be done by 5ish.
@comrade scott’s agenda of rage:
Pasta-damn I miss that man.
Yes! Fuck the GOP and their handmaidens in the media. Fuck em if they don’t think we are being nice polite house boys for our masters. I’d say particularly fuck little andy but he might enjoy that the weasel. (Had he been a straight man I would have tossed in a CS’ing in front of the weasel but in this case it would not be the insult intended).
If those bastards are not upset by our rhetoric we are being too polite.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
I forgot about that. It’s interesting that both of Reagan faux widows, Her Royal Highness, Dame Peggy and the late Jean Kirkpatrick, were alcoholics.
Well, technically, he was the most unpopular in modern history, as your citation proves. He may have been less popular than the presidents that predate modern polling, but we can’t prove it, so the original statement is not inaccurate.
@David Koch: That’s “drivel.” Common mistake. “Dribble” is what she does with her fourth cocktail while she’s reading her H.W. speeches aloud alone in her Watergate apartment, whispering “Oh, god, that’s so good” a la Kathleen Turner in that thing with Michael Douglas.
@BGinCHI: I bond in seconds. Are you my mother?
@SteveinSC: I don’t think those are either/or categories…
But here’s the thing, the important thing, and something that I wholeheartedly believe, and which makes the Founders pretty freakin’ remarkable.
They were male, white and property owning. But they didn’t write these restrictions into the Constitution. For example, despite some of the perverse bleating of some crackpots, you don’t have to amend the Constitution to have a nonwhite, a non Christian or a woman elected president.
We have had to fight and to try to make the Union more perfect, but it always amazes me the degree to which the Founders were not strict constructionists, and created a document that was not just a reflection of 18th century values.
My two cents. Your mileage may vary.
@shortstop: You’re not wearing an empty gas mask by any chance, are you?
@dmsilev: I’ll email Rahm to get some barricades.
Kathy in St. Louis
Well said, Steve.
Speaking of kooks, Palin is angry that Obama is fund raising off her crazy statements and is challenging the President to a debate.
@shortstop: “You’re not my mother! You’re a snort!”
@J. Michael Neal:
I will worry greatly about this problem when the entire liberal representation in the media is nothing but bomb throwers. Until that day, given that the entire GOP representation in the media are bomb throwers I say fuck em all.
@BGinCHI: Now, if this is going to be a bloc party, we better start organizing more than take-out and get a bouncy Bastille to storm.
@scav: Well, I have a banana, and in a pinch you could put up some shelves.
@scav: I considered several snappy responses, but gave up when I realized I have no idea what you’re saying.
Point taken. A very good point, too.
Either that, or the crystal decanters all ran dry and the liquor store was closed on Sunday, so no refills. Ohhhh the humanity!
@muddy: Just think of the 1,001 times BG will be reading that in coming days. Good times!
@shortstop: Never slows me down — now I miss whatever you didn’t post. @TooManyJens has a clue though.
@J. Michael Neal:
His one area of expertise is law and when he writes about that, he’s almost always wrong, e.g. everything about Penn State.
You have his same tendency to sanctimony but the things you write about finance are usually correct.
Villago Delenda Est
@Democratic Nihilist, Keeper Of Party Purity:
Then, laughing the laugh of Josef Stalin as he enslaved Eastern Europe, we deny their pleas.
My nym says it all. Wipe them out. All of them.
@J. Michael Neal:
I suspect I know as much or more about finance than you. I speak regularly with people who are much higher up in it than you will ever be.
EDIT: To be clear, I usually agree with what you say about the area, and you seem to usually agree with me. You are just calling me a moron because you like calling people morons — your supposed love of civility notwithstanding.
I don’t know what you do, but Burnsie uses his “experience” to help rich assholes avoid paying taxes. Are you in a similar field, or are you more on the “praise the parasites and help them suck our blood better” side of things?
and why should any of us give any more or less credibility to the ideology of such scum?
Oh, man. Doctor Freaking Who. What a letdown.
@shortstop: poor dear.
@DougJarvus Green-Ellis: See, you should have included that with your first response. Posting it one minute later just makes us think of you sitting there seething until you thought of it.
I may never stop laughing at this mental image.
God damn, I’m jealous of today’s kids for having bouncy houses.
@scav: Well, my standards for you are understandably high, because of your historical delivery rate.
@TooManyJens: And roller shoes.
Villago Delenda Est
Our plutocrats moan and our plutocrats bitch,
Our rich are too poor and our poor are too rich!
@shortstop: I have most of those books by heart, especially the Seuss. When my son was 3 he noticed I was watching the news while “reading” him a story. Outrage!
@shortstop: well, I don’t like to get in a rut. I’ll work in some of the Iliad next time, but the naming of the ships part keeps putting me to sleep.
Village pundit bedrock law: Any rude truth must be followed by a taste of sweet bullshit.
@muddy: One of the few times I’m not sad about being childless is when I think about having to read the same books aloud hundreds upon hundreds of times. I have found that to be something of a challenge with nieces, nephews and friends’ kids.
I went out to rouse the rabble, but no one was rousable, so now I’m back. I like the bouncy Bastille idea. I’ll bring the fake blood.
@BGinCHI: Dude, you were just too lazy to walk to Argyle Street. There’s always rousability there. And excellent pho.
@shortstop: I already had them by heart from my daddy reading them to me. It’s no hardship.
@J. Michael Neal:
Christ. Ok, so in your opinion, what is the “civil”/moderate/whatevah response to extremism? Seriously- when one side turns radical and tugs really fucking hard, what is the appropriate response?
(Hint: it’s not restraint and politeness. Cuz that doesn’t work. See: the restrained and polite effort to keep the George W. Bush Administration from trashing everything.)
@BGinCHI: Late to the party, but wanted to tweak your tweak:
Because junkpunching always brings more lulz.
J. Michael Neal
@DougJarvus Green-Ellis: Probably. However, I’ve spoken to a lot of people who were higher up than I was, too, so that isn’t a quality that separates us.[fn1] I also learned the subject, so I have a much better ability to smell bullshit than you do.
Quite simply, there is no substitute for actually knowing a subject. Just talking to people who know it isn’t the same thing.
[fn1] I can also name some of them, unlike you. I’ll assume that you’ve spoken with a Senior Financial Economist with a Fed branch. Have you spent two semesters taking classes from one? How about someone who was a senior quant on the petroleum desk at Cargill and is now a trader? I took two semesters of classes from him, too. Cargill doesn’t have nifty web pages like the web does, but his name is Carlos Tolmasky, and he also helped found the Financial Mathematics PhD program at the University of Minnesota.
The unrealized potential of the left to direct the political culture of their party further to the left is just as responsible for the polarization of the larger political culture as the right’s demonstrated ability to direct the political culture of their party further to the right.
I have come to the frightening realization that the only thing keeping me from a six figure salary and regular attendance at the Aspen Ideas Festival is a conscience, because even I could manufacture way more convincing bullshit than that.
@Jennifer: Alternative method noted.
J. Michael Neal
Actually, no on both counts. I’m not accusing you of being a moron. Most of that was aimed more at a couple of the other front page posters. For instance, I don’t remember you breathlessly posting a link to Taibbi in a long time. And, to the extent that you occasionally play a moron on a blog, you usually clean that up in the comments section. Shit, I don’t even think that the other front pagers are morons; some of them just don’t have any idea of what they don’t know.
As for civility, you may have noticed that I *never* claimed that I’m one of the civil ones. I know perfectly well that I have a propensity to unload with all barrels. And you may also have noticed that I specifically said that I think incivility has its place and is important. What I object to, and this is something that you *are* guilty of is belittling anyone who takes a more civil approach. Kevin Drum is a particular target of both you and John, and I think that it reflects poorly on you, not him.
I think he’s a sports reporter for local women’s athletics.
What do bomb throwers do on slow news days? I’m never certain. I guess figure out things to blow up that really aren’t dangerous at all?
J. Michael Neal
My opinion is exactly what I said it was in the comment you’re responding to. I’ll try repeating it, in different words.
The appropriate response is for some on the left to respond in kind. Fuck civility. Let ’em have it.
However, the appropriate response *also* includes people that respond with restraint. Having folks who make arguments that can resonate with moderates is also important.
And third, the proper response includes having some people that don’t respond to vileness at all. Having people who focus on policy and how to govern is critical. It is one of the things that keeps us from becoming the right.
My problem is that there seem to be a lot of people on the left who think that we need to adopt the right’s tactics in toto. All that would accomplish is that we would end up as lost as they are.
I agree that there are people who need to stop hippie punching, but there are also people who need to stop punching the restrained people on our side. It needs to stop *in both directions*. Both sets of people are necessary for a political coalition that can both win elections and get something done once in power.
@DougJarvus Green-Ellis: It’s kind of amazing how often burns is just flat wrong when he’s giving his little speech about how ignorant the non-lawyers are. But I agree that JMN gets stuff right. He’s doing himself a disservice with the association.
Certainly, but what he continually lacks in factual accuracy, he compensates for in hilarious pomposity.
J. Michael Neal
@Steve: Honestly, I don’t pay that much attention to burnsie most of the time. There have been a couple of instances where I thought he got jumped on unfairly. However, he’s a Dookie, and therefore deeply suspect at all times.
I suppose I should have broadened it. He’s not the only lawyer that comments here, and there is a tendency among the populace to ignore what they are writing when they understand the subject and the answer isn’t what people want to hear. There have been a number of instances when multiple people were absolutely convinced that someone they (and usually I) don’t like was in deep, deep legal trouble and they don’t let the actual attorneys dissuade them with actual discussion of the law.
@J. Michael Neal: Basically, this is just the 21st Century version of having BOTH Malcolm X and Martin Luther King.
(For one thing, you can’t call you a crazy radical when you actually have crazy radicals that are further out than you).
(And note that this is mostly a distinction on tactics–the overall strategic goal for both are pretty much the same).
J. Michael Neal
@gwangung: Exactly. I find it interesting that a lot of people, perhaps without realizing it, are explicitly condemning King’s tactics. The claim is that the GOP is so extreme and out of control that it is dangerous to ever respond to it with reasoned, calm discourse. I submit that today’s conservatives aren’t anywhere close to as dangerous as the ones King was struggling against, and his approach seems to have worked pretty well.
But, yeah, having Malcolm out there helped a lot.
@J. Michael Neal:
Oookaaaay, not sure why you’re complaining about incivility on a lefty blog, but we’ll keep going…
Ah, and where would these people come from? I assume you mean from within the Democratic Party or from within the coalition that leans to the left. In which case you suggest that while the Republican Party is unified in being radical, the opposition to that radicalism should be split up into little factions of bomb throwers and tea drinkers. How is that going to work? And, more interestingly, how is that different than the last 30 years in politics?
Same questions apply- how is splitting up the opposition to radicalism going to defeat radicalism, and how is that different than what’s already been tried?
People within a society have fundamentally incompatible belief systems and worldviews, and there will be no compromises. These beliefs and worldviews must compete and battle, it will inevitably get ugly, and to a certain extent I don’t think the battle will ever end (see: contraception, recent debate on). That’s the reality and you should probably just learn to deal.
I guess you’re upset that there isn’t enough room for the “civil” people in these recent debates, but I’m not sorry about that. The last 30+ years have shown us how that works out for most of us, and it failed. Miserably, on multiple fronts. If you could credibly explain how that won’t happen again, then maybe you’d have a valid argument. But you don’t, do you?
Odie Hugh Manatee
@J. Michael Neal:
In the past I would have agreed with you completely. Civility and reason should rule the day. The problem now is that conservatives have adopted a scorched-earth type of atmosphere out there, leaving little to no room for reason or civility. You can stand there talking until you’re blue in the face but if all you get in return is hate and disgust, then you are banging your head against a brick wall.
The right is setting everything on fire and the best way to fight fire is with fire. You can’t fight fire by yourself, you get help. Right now the right is doing most of the recruiting for the fire fighting. People are waking up and seeing the fires blazing out of control out there, really nasty fires, and they are lending a hand in in the best way that they can. You can stand and talk to the arsonists with the hope that you can get them to stop setting fires, or you can fight them with fire. Only one of those methods stands a chance; the one that uses fire and reasoned attacks to beat back the flames of crazy on the right.
IMO, that’s pretty much where we are at right now. I respect your opinion on this but I respectfully disagree with you.
I’ll fight fire with fire.
I think it depends on whether or not you’re as willing as the Republicans are to completely ignore policy and governance and just go straight for the jugular of your opponent regardless of the consequences.
I know the Republicans like to pretend that politics is all a game and that, say, the policies enacted by the Dept. of Health and Human Services don’t really matter, but they actually do affect ordinary people’s lives every day. If both parties start acting as though the federal government is an imaginary construct, we will be in much deeper shit than we are now, and that’s saying a lot.
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
That proverb never makes sense to me. Why isn’t water the best way to fight fire? Why not a fire extinguisher? Why do we have to participate in burning everything down instead of putting out the fire?
@J. Michael Neal: I think these are two separate points. The first point, which I think you’re making, is that there’s room for both heated and non-heated rhetoric because some audiences respond to one and some respond to the other. The second point is that heated rhetoric serves to make the non-heated guy look more reasonable, which I’m not sure I buy. A lot of people thought MLK was a scary extremist even though there were folks like Malcolm X who were clearly a lot more extreme.
Odie Hugh Manatee
Water is good (where available) for small fires but when it comes to huge, out of control fires? It takes shovels, saws, water, retardants and back burning to put out the big ones. By back burning you deny fire the fuel it needs to continue. The only problem is that sometimes you may start a new fire doing it so its use is assessed on a per fire basis.
We have a big one here. My assessment is that back burning is necessary to save lives. :)
@Steve: Hmmm..I think the point is NOT to eschew radical or violent tactics. It’s to keep them in hand AS WELL as more moderate, Alinksy-esque tactics.
General Stuck (Bravo Nope Zero)
I think the times demand we do join them in the trenches, but we don’t need to use the same weapons as they do. We can use our brains, it is a distinct advantage we have over republicans, who are ever increasing melding their behavior with atavistic impulse and lizard brain logic. Set trap – coax – VICTORY!!
@Odie Hugh Manatee:
Some back-burning, yes. But as you pointed out, it takes multiple tools to put the fire out. You can’t just go, “Oh, fuck it, let’s set everything else on fire and that’ll solve the problem.”
I think anger and radicalism are useful tools to have in the toolbox, but if you do what the Republicans have and use only those tools … well, I think we’ve all seen the results.
Good lord, what is WRONG with you people obsessing about Andrew Sullivan?
For all this talk of bomb throwin’, we got a truly MLK like guy in the White House now. Obama is no bomb thrower, no fire starter. He’ll kill you with kindness and a razor mind.
@Jewish Steel: @42
And I am the very model
Of a modern major oracle
@redshirt: That’s why they hate him.
@J. Michael Neal:
Kind of a note directed at you and DougJ, but let us remember that our lady of the calculator gastritis regularly reminds us she took classes with Austan Goolsbee and seems to have learned nothing.
I think Cole was right to go after Drum in this instance after reading what Drum wrote. Why? Because Drum is often cited by crappy media in search of false equivalence as a guy who disagreed with Democrats. He was all over the place in his language in that post and gave conservatives a bunch of stuff to cite out of context.
Heck, one of the last times I saw Drum cited was as a liberal who disagreed with liberals on X issue, but when you clicked the link to read the actual Drum piece, Drum was did not substantively disagree with liberals. It was just clipped out of context by the writer.
Sometimes it’d help if his writing was more concise you know?
Lo and behold! I opened up Sully after writing that post and he’s citing Kevin Drum about Limbaugh.
Of course, the lesson is to click every god damned link.
“There’s been a huge amount of phony posturing by some people – Tim Robbins, Susan Sarandon, the Dixie Chicks, et al. – about how their free speech has been trampled by robust criticism and even boycotts. That’s hooey. The government hasn’t touched them; and, of course, shouldn’t. But it’s perfectly legit for other citizens to speak out, boycott, blog, and so on. ”
Who said it in 2003? Andrew Sullivan