Trayvon Martin was killed in Sanford, Florida last week three weeks ago. He was killed by a Neighborhood Watch member, who followed him for several minutes, and called Sanford 911 to report a person acting suspiciously. That person was a 140lb African American teenager who was in the gated community visiting his father and step mother. When he called 911, the Neighborhood Watch member, George Zimmerman, was told not to approach or engage the person he was following. Instead, he killed Trayvon Martin with a handgun. Trayvon had a can of soda and a bag of skittles. You get to guess which ethnic group George Zimmerman is NOT a member of.
The audio tape of the 911 call by a neighbor raises a lot of question (warning–trigger material). The tape opens with a young woman calling the police to report a gunshot and a person hurt. Screams can be heard in the background, followed by another gunshot and then silence. Remember that is AFTER the initial gunshot that prompted the caller to call 911.
To date, George Zimmerman has not been charged with a crime. There is no circumstance that fits the publicly known facts that I can think of under which this isn’t a crime.
I’ve had a shitty day. One of the worst ones I’ve had in a very long time. But I am a white male. Every shitty thing that happened today, was either minimized because I am a white male and don’t have the kind of shit to put up with that others have, or I incurred it because I am a white male who was not only educated and paid pretty well to deal with the shit I deal with in IT, but also had tools given to me to solve those very problems, and being a white male, was allowed to solve those problems without additional shit to have to deal with.
Corner Stone
I always wonder when people say this. What happened?
The Dangerman
Since when does Neighborhood Watch get to pack? Sure, 2nd Amendment and all, but shoot someone outside your domicile and it should be an instant arrest. Hopefully, the wrongful death lawsuit goes after not only him, but whomever organized the watch.
Chet
Well, Rush did say it was open season on black people in Obama’s America.
…er, wait…
Arclite
Yeah, when I read this story a few days ago, I couldn’t believe how quickly the authorities defended the shooter as using self defense.
This is pretty outrageous. A seriously WTF scenario. Maybe when all the facts are known things will change, but right now I don’t see how this is anything other than murder.
Of course the perp will get charged with manslaughter, he’ll plead down, get a couple of years, and be out in six months for good time.
Six months for shooting someone dead on the streets.
BGinCHI
Thanks for this post, SG.
I had a shitty day, too. But because things that could be better aren’t moving as fast as I’d like, and people are being dickish and cautious and so on. These are problems, and more serious than just White People Problems, but nonetheless, we’ll survive. And it reminds me that there are so damn many things that could be worse. Or even that I’m lucky to have these problems because I like my job and I care.
Anyway, perspective always helps. I can’t imagine how that kid’s family feels after he gets shot by some paranoid old white fuckhead with a gun fetish.
Narcissus
I assumed it was a paranoid old white fuckhead, too, but the article says Zimmerman is 28. Which strikes me as worse somehow.
Emma
It’s Florida. What can I tell you? You know Carl Hiaasen’s novels? Well, the man is a master of understatement.
Arclite
@BGinCHI:
Actually, as it turns out, he is 28 and partly Hispanic.
BGinCHI
@Narcissus: Holy shit. I missed that. It looks like I’m guilty of assuming that all gun toting racists in FL gated communities are older white fuckheads.
I’m a monster.
Soonergrunt
@Corner Stone: It started with late for work, followed by a PTSD trigger, then some little entitled shit heads lying to my face, followed by all of my coworkers going over to the project site leaving me the only Desktop support tech for the whole facility, some more of the same PTSD trigger, the project for which I’m lead got the time horizon shortened to two weeks from two months from now, a friendship ended, one last dose of the PTSD trigger, and the drive home in the shittiest traffic I’ve seen in quite a while.
But Trayvon Martin is dead and I’m not. So it’s all relative.
BGinCHI
@Arclite: BG, stereotype failure.
Why am I so hard on whitey?
BGinCHI
@Soonergrunt: Cheer up: Duke lost.
MikeTheZ
The irony of something that sounds like it happened in a 3rd world country happening in a gated community in Muerica blows my mind.
auntieeminaz
@Narcissus: Ditto. Zimmerman sounds too aggressive. There was no reason to confront the kid.
MikeTheZ
@BGinCHI: That might not work if it busted Soonergrunt’s bracket.
Clime Acts
@Soonergrunt:
I’ll bite: What’s the PTSD trigger?
BGinCHI
@MikeTheZ: It busted a lot of brackets….plus Mizzou. I don’t care about my bracket if I can get a Duke loss early, btw. Well worth it.
Soonergrunt
@BGinCHI: Well, then Aubrey McClendon (CEO of Chesapeake Energy, and major dickhead) has a sad. Goody.
Demolition on 2nd floor of hospital I work at for remodeling. Using pneumatic hammer drills and jackhammers. Sounds like machine gun and automatic rifle fire with the right conditions.
Belafon (formerly anonevent)
@Clime Acts: Why don’t you go ahead and not in this case.
Paula68154
With the information that is out now, Zimmerman looks like he killed a young man. Listening to the tapes I can only conclude that this man let his racial stereotypes guide his actions. He was the judge, jury, and executioner.
My heart goes out to they boy’s parents.
PeakVT
@Clime Acts: That wasn’t an invitation, dipshit.
Arclite
@BGinCHI: Actually, I made the same assumption, but was able to edit it out of my comment when I realized it before the timer ran out.
MikeTheZ
@BGinCHI: This is why I never put Duke in my Final Four.
Clime Acts
@Belafon (formerly anonevent):
Why don’t you butt out?
Emrventures
Listening to the 911 tape, which is quite grainy with regard to the background, I thought I heard a deep voice yelling several times in tones that sounded like commands. I also heard a higher-pitched voice letting out bloodcurdling screams of pain and fear. Then a gunshot. And the high-pitched voice stopped.
I don’t know what happened. Who can tell in these situations?
Clime Acts
@PeakVT:
Then why did SG just answer my question, fuck face?
Usually, when someone talks about something like this, they WANT to be asked. And if he doesn’t want to talk about it, SG is entirely adult enough to tell me.
Fucking mind your own fucking business, asshole. So many hall monitors on this site.
Steve in DC
Yeah dude wasn’t old and dude wasn’t actually white.
Florida has some really fucked up self defense laws. The thing about gated communities though, this might not even have had anything to do with the kid being black. It could have just been him being a kid and not dressing the right way for the area.
All the apartment buildings around here are private with security guards and everything. If you’re young and dressed poorly, or just flat out dressed poorly, you’re going to catch shit. End of fucking story. On the other hand if you look like you belong, which is entirely based off how you dress and what sort of car you’re in, everybody will bend over backwards and kiss your ass.
When I come home from work in $$$ clothes I’ve never had a problem. Walking to the CVS a few blocks up at night though in shorts, beat up sneakers, ball cap on with a hoodie, I didn’t get far before the cops grabbed me and threw me in the back of a car in hilarious fashion on all sorts of bullshit charges. Which were all promptly dropped $6000 in legal fee’s later when they realized I lived here and I showed up in a suit.
We don’t know what happened yet here. But I wouldn’t be shocked if this was a case of “fucking teenagers are up to no good causing problems blah blah” that blew up.
Clime Acts
@Soonergrunt:
Does this shit get any better over time? What do you do to deal with it when it happens?
I’m asking because I’m interested, and I know that thousands of vets deal with what you do. But if you don’t care to answer, that’s cool.
My dad was a WWII vet, 18 months in a German POW camp til the end of the war. This was long before my parents ever met, but apparently he was never the same and we think he suffered PTSD til his dying day. Of course, being of the greatest generation, he never talked about any of it.
freelancer
I posted in the OT and over at TNC. Having heard both Zimmerman’s and the neighbor’s 911 call, my blood is up and it hasn’t come back down after I’ve taken a few deep breaths.
Here’s my earlier comment:
Even Barney Fife canvasses the neighbors when a death is involved. That, plus the tapes, plus Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense plus whatever PHYSICAL EVIDENCE you acquire as part of a death investigation meaning Gun, casings, powder, etc, demands a) the most basic level of professionalism amongst police, and b) not automatically taking the paler dude’s story as gospel. In my opinion, this is as much of a case of law enforcement fucking the dog as it is a MURDER.
pseudonymous in nc
The guy who shot the Japanese exchange student in Baton Rouge who accidentally went to the wrong address for a Halloween party? He got acquitted of manslaughter, and he wouldn’t even have been charged without the governor and Japanese consulate getting involved.
Bumfuck cops plus idiotically broad self-defence laws written by state-legislator muppets give certain people — and we know who we mean here — the ability to kill certain other people and get away with it.
ant
well, there was a gunshot, right? so lady calls 911.
dude is screaming, and there is another gunshot.
then i heard a 3rd, and dude stops screaming.
how many bullet holes did Trey end up with?
pseudonymous in nc
@Steve in DC:
Or, y’know, walking. I’m a pasty bastard, and I still got shit a few times from cops in tony parts of The South for having the audacity to walk half a mile on a nice day instead of driving.
Steve in DC
@freelancer
It depends on the self defense laws in Florida, which are hilarious to say the least. Use of lethal force varies widely from state to state.
And again, playing the racist angle here isn’t all that productive. In gated communities being a teen or having a hoodie on is going to cause suspicion no matter the color of your skin, because that’s not what rich people do.
I wouldn’t wander around the area I live in with a hood on, I know exactly what will happen.
As stupid as it sounds there was once an ass biter/grabber that wore a hood around here for a while, and there are kids from less well off areas that wear them as well. Hood over head here instantly translates to “I am up to no good arrest me” it’s stupid as fuck but oh well.
Should the guy go to jail, in my mind yes. But I’m not sure with the legal statues there outside of Florida has some very lax gun laws. I’m also not shocked that people in a “gated area” throw a shit fit about someone with a hood on.
TooManyJens
I’m still trying to figure out what part of shooting an unarmed minor after a confrontation YOU CAUSED constitutes “self-defense”. Even for Florida, that’s fucked up.
And whether or not Zimmerman found Martin “suspicious” because he’s black or because he just wasn’t doing what rich people do (I’d suspect some from column A and some from column B), can anyone imagine that if the races had been reversed, the black shooter wouldn’t have been arrested?
If anyone wishes to contact Police Chief Bill Lee, his email is [email protected] and his phone # is (407) 688-5070. People have also been trying to get the Justice Department involved, so contacting them is probably also a good idea.
well paid replicant
If this was Dade County, I might believe Zimmerman acted in self-defense. Asking a question down there can get you shot. But…Sanford? WTF?
pragmatism
Was thinking about this Zimmerman yahoo when I read about a guy I have doe business with shooting a guy who broke into his shop and pointed a shotgun he picked up in the shop at him.
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Trophy-Motorcycle-Shop-Burglary-Shooting–142778665.html
Isaac is a stand up guy. Scrupulous and honest as a business person. For those that are inclined, an afternoon hanging out in the shop talking about bikes, mods, places to ride, tall tales, and general bullshit is a fine afternoon indeed. The guys who work at the shop are the hubs of these conversations. In most respects I say good for Isaac and the dude who broke in and picked up the gun deserved it.
But i still wonder if isaac had the gun locked up in some fashion.
Lyrebird
@Soonergrunt: Sending lots of good thoughts… plus a prayer that whatever you sat through today brought you another big step towards more desensitization! (e.g. less bad next time)
Plus more for Trayvon’s family, what a sickening heartbreak.
ant
where is it reported that Trey had a hood on when he was walking in this neighborhood?
Soonergrunt
@Clime Acts: Well, I go to counseling, and from that, I am developing the tools to deal with it. When I first got home, everything was fine right up until the fourth of July about three weeks later. I about came unglued.
Now, I know to remind myself that it’s not gunfire. It’s just a hammer drill. I know to concentrate on my heart rate and visualize it slowing. I know that news reports of what’s happening over there are describing things on the other side of the planet, and not the other side of the hill.
The big one is that I know now, both emotionally, and intellectually, that my temper is shorter, and that certain sights, sounds, and odors cause memories to surface. What’s more important is that I learn to detach myself to an extent and analyze what is happening to me. I’m learning to manage my stressors in my life, because they make me more susceptible to triggering events, and last but not least, I’m learning to accept it for what it is. Some of it is a vestige of the very survival instinct that got me through three combat tours, and as such, it is not inherently a bad or disabling thing.
I’m going to be at this for a while, with the counseling, and some guys have it worse than me. For a long time, I denied that I had any problems, even as I was counseling others in my unit as the Suicide Prevention NCO to seek help, and even escorting a couple of guys.
Soonergrunt
@Lyrebird: Thanks! Some days, I can use all the help I can get.
TooManyJens
@ant: Several places; here’s one:
http://gma.yahoo.com/orlando-watch-shooting-probe-reveals-questionable-police-conduct-032002155–abc-news.html
He reportedly had his hood up because it was raining.
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
Every article I read on this basically boils down to two things:
1) The self-defense law in Florida may be so broad you can literally get away with murder if you so much as whisper the words ‘self defense’ soon as it happens.
2) The cops are running such fucking hardcore interference that it’s depressingly obvious they’re going to let him skate.
Darkrose
@Steve in DC: Yeah, he shouldn’t have worn a hood in the rain.
Or, you know, his black.
Steve in DC
Jumping to conclusions about racism is just as absurd as jumping to conclusions that the kid was up to something. You don’t know, you can assume, but you don’t know. And jumping to those conclusions makes you just biased and goofy as the guy who shot the kid.
Same people who jumped to racism also screamed “old white guy” oops, young and half hispanic guy.
Funny how that works. Conservatives, never believe them when they claim it’s not racism. Liberals, never believe them when they say it is racism.
Anna Granfors
For some reason, I clicked on the 2nd 911 call first, then decided to listen to the first one from Zimmerman. Which isn’t there any more. (Same browser. tried three times.) Wonder what’s up with that? Especially if, as you say, he hasn’t been charged with a crime?
Sigh. I just get more and more conspiracy-minded every day, but it always seems like eventually, my suspicions are borne out.
And who’s gonna miss another person of color, anyway? He probably would’ve wound up being a murderous crackhead. And YES, I’m being sadly sarcastic when I say that.
Gravenstone
Local PD may be studiously ignoring this, but I’ll be shocked if a federal civil rights charge isn’t forthcoming, at a minimum. Especially with this second 911 tape appearing to show multiple shots fired after an initial discharge.
RareSanity
@Soonergrunt:
Dude, I’m sorry that you had a shitty day…but, I just want you to know, that you just made my day.
As a black male, hearing a white guy without being prompted to do so, not just recognize – but vocalize (in written form) – the vast difference in the American “experience” depending on your race, gave me a sense of calm that I don’t experience much since I entered “the real world”.
If we were all in a bar, drinks would be on me Juicers…
Thank you.
Martin
So it’s 1964 all over again. Well, maybe Holder needs to power up the Civil Rights lawyers.
Clime Acts
@Soonergrunt:
Good on you for facing up to the situation and embracing the counseling as part of the solution. I know doing that can be dicey in the military environment where such a premium is often put on sucking it up and pretending things don’t bother you.
I have NOTHING to compare your PTSD to but I’m guessing when you encounter sounds such as you describe your lizard brain/survival instinct kicks in in a micro second; wow, that has to be a real bear to overcome.
All my best to you in that endeavor. Hope you’re not too hesitant about pharmaceuticals as prescribed if appropriate for depression or whatever. They save and change lives for millions of people. I don’t know if counseling alone can change the conditioned electrical/chemical reaction structure your brain set up to protect you when you needed it. It’s been fascinating to me to learn how our brains actually change physically over time when exposed to certain high stress situations.
All best!
ant
you can clearly hear “HELP ME” BANG.
dont sound like self defense to me.
TooManyJens
@Gravenstone:
And not for the first time:
The Curious Case of Trayvon Martin
Nothing to see here, just move right along…
pseudonymous in nc
@Steve in DC:
The fucker reportedly called in 40+ separate 911 calls during his time as a self-appointed gated-community cop. I feel a lot more comfortable predicting what the writeup of those calls reveals about who he regarded as “suspicious” than who’ll make it to the Final Four.
But Libertarian Goldilocks is just right?
Anne Laurie
@Soonergrunt: Knowledge is power, and I’m glad you’re arming yourself with the kind of awareness you describe here. Be well!
Darkrose
@Steve in DC: Must be nice to be able to live in post-racial America. Some of us don’t get that luxury.
Darkrose
@Steve in DC: Must be nice to be able to live in post-racial America. Some of us don’t get that luxury.
jwb
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik: Judging from the Times article, I don’t think the police are going to be able to let this one skate—though that’s clearly what they wanted. The question I have is why they wanted to let this one skate, since Zimmerman seems like he was a crank and the police thought so as well.
Soonergrunt
@RareSanity: It’s not easy. It’s something I have to keep reminding myself. And I also have to keep reminding myself to be careful that I’m not part of the problem. My dad was my best teacher. He never let me or my sisters forget that as children of the white middle class in America, we had rights and privileges that the vast majority of our fellow humans could only dream about.
I did have a fucking horrible day. But I didn’t get shot for walking in the wrong place in the presence of some cockbite who was trying to get on the scoreboard. And if I’d been white in that neighborhood, the likelihood that he would’ve drove by me and waved instead is extremely high.
TooManyJens
When did we decide that “feeling” threatened was grounds for killing someone, anyway? How many incidents have there been of cops killing unarmed people, usually men of color, because they “felt threatened”? Even though they were the ones with weapons and sometimes body armor? Even though in some cases, they were breaking into the wrong house for a drug bust?
It is possible to ensure by your own actions that you will never be threatening someone’s life. There is no way to ensure by your own actions that you will never be in a situation where someone “feels” threatened by you even though you’ve done nothing wrong. This theory of self-defense leaves the citizenry literally helpless against being lawfully killed.
Anne Laurie
@Steve in DC:
Uh, no, because (unless I am missing something) the commentors here have not actually shot any kids recently. I mean, yeah, words are important, but potentially-snide comments on the internets do not equal deadly force.
The But Everybody Does It defense is popular with authoritarians, because fear from our lizard-brains is easier & faster than reason from our fore-brains. Unfortunately, that fear feeds on itself — it’s too easy for a scared twitchy Security Guy to generalize from “bad guys disguise themselves with hoodies” to “hoodie SHOOT NOW questions later”. And then the guys in hoodies — even the legitimate visitors, eventually the neighbors — start shooting back, because how do you know that husky young guy shouting at you is legitimate ‘security’ and not just another thug taking advantage?
RareSanity
@Soonergrunt:
Much respect to both you and your Dad…
freelancer
@Steve in DC:
I felt you had a point up until you kept digging. Fuck. You. Cubed. Jumping to conclusions makes me as biased as the pig who stated “They always get away with it!” and chased even after he was told by 911 that he probably shouldn’t. I didn’t call him white. I mentioned Martin only. I didn’t put words in Zimmerman’s mouth. I didn’t make him say the things he said or do the things he did. That he was so freaked by this skinny kid walking with his hood up in the rain says more about him and his biases than it does about me or anyone speculating this shooting might have ANYTHING to do with race.
Fuck you, dude. You can concern troll all you want as if you’re above the whole argument. Obfuscate all you want, but don’t pretend that because some dude is insufficiently white in your eyes, that frees him from being prejudiced against other non-whites. Fear of BNBG exists as a criminal phenomenon independent of genetic purity.
Your defense of the indefensible under the so-called guise of empiricism aka not “jumping to conclusions” might be the most fucked up thing inherent in the subtext on every post you’ve made on this, simultaneously besmirching the objection of every person that notes this tragedy as something that could have been avoided as “libruls playing the race card” when what occurred was the unprovoked death of a black teenager at the hands of neighborhood watch for no reason at all aside from the paranoid justification existing only in the mind of the shooter.
That this is Florida, and some are quick to not include events taking place there as indicative of the larger South, Florida is not without its institutional race issues. The state was the 3rd state to secede, a mere 21 days after South Carolina and the day after Mississippi/
Soonergrunt
@Clime Acts: Thanks for the kind thoughts. I’m retired from the Army and National Guard now, so as long as I can drive to work, I can take pretty much anything that’s legal to take.
Additionally, the Army itself has really made a big institutional change in the way it deals with PTSD and other emotional and psychological crises. Cultural change is never easy, but we’re getting there.
@Anne Laurie: It will always be a present tense thing to some extent. I don’t think there will ever be a day when I only speak of it in the past tense.
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@TooManyJens:
Unfortunately, said theory of self-defense is law under Stand Your Ground statutes, which seem to be stupid popular and spreading.
WaterGirl
@jwb:
This makes me sick. Almost literally. Especially the first line.
I was happy, at least, to read in the article that the family has asked the DOJ to get involved.
Jebediah
@Martin:
This case has me very upset and a bit hopeless, but I admit I am fantasizing about a massive federal juggernaut landing on that shitty Police Department. Disband the department, federal charges for everyone who participated in trying to let that murderous fucker skate, send them to the pen for a good long time.
I won’t be holding my breath, but a message needs to be sent that it ISN’T still 1964.
hitchhiker
The shooter followed the kid after he’d been specifically told not to; nobody has disputed that. He was LOOKING for a problem, not trying to prevent one.
This isn’t going away.
And I’m sorry, people who say we ought not to assume it’s about race. Why on earth not? It’s a perfectly natural assumption to make, given the circumstances.
Are we afraid that black people might become agitated or something if we speculate that this man was probably acting out of his own racial assumptions?
Gravenstone
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik: Stand Your Ground != follow some kid who is only guilty of Walking While Black.
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@jwb:
According to local articles, unfortunately, he was the Sanford PD’s kind of crank. The assault charge Blow noted in his op-ed was hastily dropped, and the police basically seemed to hold him up as some kind of paragon, even after the community complained about him to the point of escorting out someone publicly airing out grievance against him in a town meeting.
@Gravenstone:
But don’t you see, he had blood on his face and head, and grass on his back! He claimed he got attacked first, and had to protect himself! An iron-clad defense….at least, the Sanford PD seem to consider it so. And so far it’s working since they’re going out of their way to insist they can’t charge him.
That’s the problem with Stand Your Ground as it’s being applied: it’s so stupidly broad you can apply self-defense to everything short of blatant ambushes and apparently get it taken seriously enough to skate.
TooManyJens
I just noticed that the OP says Trayvon Martin was killed last week. He was killed on February 26; the case started getting major media attention last week.
Joseph Nobles
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik: Aw, jeez. He’s like their Neighborhood Watch mascot.
different-church-lady
@hitchhiker:
You know what happens when you make an assumption? You make and ass out of I and Umpton.
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@different-church-lady:
Umpton deserves to be made an ass of, though, that dumb prick.
…..who’s Umpton?
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@soonergrunt
Not trying to make your bad day worse, but the shooting occurred on February 26. Trayvon Martin was in the Orlando area from Miami, hanging with his father (visitation?) at father’s girlfriend’s place, watching the NBA All-Star game.
From what footage I’ve seen, the gated community wasn’t what I’d call upscale- more like a decent condo complex made up of townhouses and, maybe, some 4-plexes. I point this out because it doesn’t look like a place where the neighbors know each other very well- more a transitional place. I don’t think Zimmerman was chosen as a member of the Neighborhood Watch as much as he appointed himself.
RareSanity
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik:
I know you are not defending the law, the act, or the person…and I know it’s all about how the law actually reads.
But, I always thought “stand your ground”, meant “you needn’t back down from an aggressor”, not give people permission to become the aggressor. I live in Georgia, which is also a “stand your ground” state. I know that if someone breaks in my house, anything that happens in the house is justified. If they run out the front door, I give chase and then shoot them, I am going to be arrested on charges starting with aggravated assault, and progressing to murder, if I kill the person.
Which is perfectly logical…which is strange because, it deals with guns, and this is Georgia. I can’t imagine that Florida’s law is so much different that it would allow for something like this.
I think that charges are going to be brought against the shooter, and I think the police chief is going to have some ‘splainin’ to do. But then again, this is Florida, so it’s anybody’s guess as to what will actually happen.
Soonergrunt
@TooManyJens: Corrected, thanks.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@hitchhiker:
This. Ain’t it obvious?
Martin
@RareSanity: It happens more than you probably know. Had a long talk with the teenager today about how much more privileged his life is going to be – because he’s white (black hole of whiteness, to coin my own phrase), because he’s male. Talked about the privileges he already enjoys – nice house, his own room, his own computer, top rated schools. He’ll have no problem getting into college. He’ll have no problem getting a job. We have enough savings to invest in his future. As long as he’s not a dick, nobody will ever really question his actions.
No laws will ever discriminate against him because 90% of the members of Congress look just like him – white and male. He never will have to worry about that. 90% of CEOs look like him too. He doesn’t have to worry about getting knocked up, either, so he’ll always be tempted to just skim over all of those stories about vaginal ultrasounds and whatnot. He’ll never need to worry about voter ID laws targeting him, and he’ll be tempted to skim over those too. He’ll assume that nobody would just up and shoot a teenager for no reason, because that would never happen to him, so he’ll be tempted to discount this story as ‘well, Trayvon Martin must have done something to deserve getting shot.’
I told him that I’m going to expect more of him as a result. He’s not going to get to skim over that stuff. He’s not going to get to sit back and watch it play out. I reminded him that I have a cousin who is black. I have cousins who are gay. I have cousins who are Jewish. I expect him to look out for everyone who is getting the shit end of the stick, because they’re all family, they’re all no different than he is and they deserve no less than he has.
I think it’ll stick with him. He’s a really kind and thoughtful kid.
And I know we’re not alone. My whole family has the same viewpoint. We have friends that have raised their kids the same way. I think this next generation is going to change the country. They’re not buying the racist bullshit. They’re not buying the homophobia. The GOP campaign isn’t working on them at all.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik:
The assault charge came from another community- another county, even, iirc.
That the first cop on the scene- at least the first to question Zimmerman- was a narcotics cop. Makes me wonder if Zimmerman wasn’t used in the past as an informant or buyer.
jwb
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik: That suggests Zimmerman’s got local political protection and has had it for awhile. Or perhaps what @Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again) said. If the Feds get involved, as I’m guessing they will, that protection will be blown open.
geejayeff
Look at the race of the victim, not the perpetrator to understand how systemic racism shows itself. It’s the victim that determines how vigorously the justice system will swing into action.
RareSanity
@Martin:
Well said.
I know that it probably occurs a lot more than I’ll ever know. But, it’s is nice to actually hear it though.
Good on you for not just feeling it, but teaching it…
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@RareSanity:
Looking it up, you’re describing the Castle Doctrine law, which only applies to home…but it looks like a Stand Your Ground law was passed there too, applying the Castle Doctrine principle blanketly: unless I’m reading it wrong, your scenario WOULD mean you could declare self defense and essentially be immune from criminal charge, even if you gave chase and shot.
That’s part of the problem with the Stand Your Ground laws: law considers it ‘no duty to retreat’. Practical application leads it to ‘no duty to de-escalate’.
Rita R.
Our society treats young black men as disposable at best and assumed criminals at worst, and this is on full display in the death of Trayvon Martin. Anyone who thinks that being a young black male didn’t play a role in why Zimmerman flagged Martin as suspicious, why the police seemingly are more interested in covering Zimmerman’s ass than legally holding him to account, and why this story isn’t getting the national attention it deserves, hasn’t been paying attention.
Charles Blow talks about the fear that comes with being the parent of black sons(TooManyJenns also linked to this): http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/17/opinion/blow-the-curious-case-of-trayvon-martin.html?ref=charlesmblow
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@jwb:
@Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again):
From the looks, it was Orange County, which borders Seminole (the county where Sanford is). Whatever connections he had that are letting him skate these things, very well could extend outside of just Sanford. :/ I dunno, I hate feeling all conspiracy theory-y, but it seems like this guy has a history, and enablers.
RareSanity
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik:
I’m definitely not an attorney, so I defer to your interpretation.
Maybe I just made the mistake of subconsciously applying logic to a law that wasn’t intended to be logical.
TooManyJens
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik:
Or, as in this case, ‘permission to escalate.’
Rita R.
There are also too many fucking guns in this country and too many Rambo wanna-bes with big swinging dick delusions and nervous trigger fingers.
Temporarily Max McGee (soon enough to be Andy K again)
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik:
When you’ve got two separate counties’ systems involved, there’s a good chance that there’s going to be some bad communication- worse when you’re talking about someone who’s had his conviction expunged.
That said, from what I’ve read at TNC’s blog, Sanford P.D. has a shitty record of protecting its own. I wouldn’t be surprised if SPD went to bat for Zimmerman in Orange County. (ETA: If Zimmerman was someone who was working for SPD, that is.)
Suffern ACE
@The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik: Interesting. Now, this is a hypothetical. Lets say I’m being followed around by someone in a car while I’m walking down the street. Say I’m a 14 year old kid and some guy gets out of the car with a gun. I can’t tell, but I think he could be a child molesting kidnapper. Am I supposed to flee? Cause I might be defending myself as well.
In my mind though, two people defending themselves does not mean the police can decide that there isn’t going to be a formal inquest into the matter because it seems like in that kind of confrontation, the stand your ground law seems to allow the police to declare whatever party that lives a winner and walk away. And so it seems that once you shoot someone, you might as well kill them since you’re more likely to be free from the hassle of having to explain yourself to a judge if no one is alive to testify against you.
Mnemosyne (iTouch)
I wanted to highlight this because it’s a point that I think gets overlooked too often. Even if Zimmerman had himself been black, this case would still be an example of systemic racism, because he still would have been acting on culture-wide racial assumptions (young black man in hoodie = criminal).
TooManyJens
@Rita R.: Whenever there’s a school shooting or whatnot, the NRA types always crawl out of the woodwork to say that this proves that even more people need to be armed, to stop the attacks. Do you think they’d advocate that what this situation really needed was for Trayvon Martin to have had a gun?
Jenn
I’ve been following this at TNC’s place, and I honestly have no words for how upset I am about this. The idea that I could be accosted while walking down the street, and that if I fought back that my attacker could just shoot me with no repercussions … It’s horrifying. What I want to know is: what about Trayvon’s right to stand his ground? Or is it just ‘whoever ends up dead on the ground is the one at fault’ … As long as the shooter isn’t black, of course. Then all bets are off. And if the Florida AG doesn’t step in, the DOJ damn well better.
Martin
@TooManyJens:
Yes. It’s another sale for their backers. And the more young black men have guns, the more guns they can sell to old white men. It’s a virtuous circle for handgun manufacturers.
Donut
Positive thoughts to you, Soonergrunt. I had a less than ideal last couple of days myself, but you’re right, shit could always be worse and I can only imagine what PTSD does to compound a tough day for you. Thanks for posting this thread and hope you stay well.
ruemara
@Steve in DC: You know something, Steve? Shut up. I’m sick to death of white people telling black people not to get all hyped on it possibly being racist when a black person is shot by an asshole. It can be every damn thing you mention, plus a hefty dose of racism. Just because you’ve experience grief because you weren’t wearing spats and tails while out for your morning jog, does not mean you get what it’s like to live under suspicion because of your race.
Roger Moore
@Mnemosyne (iTouch):
And even if Zimmerman himself isn’t racist, the police department’s rapid decision that there was no need for a serious inquiry looks a hell of a lot like institutional racism. We’re not talking about a lone asshole who decided it was open season on black kids; it’s a whole system that’s looking the other way because the victim doesn’t count.
John O
A colleague of mine trying to explain this all to me one day told me the story of standing in line in a grocery store when the woman in front of him dropped a $10 on the floor, to which he naturally picked it up for her and offered it back to the woman for which he was rewarded with…wait for it!…fear. The woman was reluctant to take her money back from this 6’10” black man.
I just don’t have to deal with that kind of thing on a daily basis, and neither does Steve in DC, and neither does the rest of whitey. It’s gotta make a difference.
BethanyAnne
@Soonergrunt:
Well, if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the precipitate ;-)
Cain
@RareSanity:
+1 to all black males!
Suffern ACE
The 911 transcript makes no sense. “The kid is walking toward me. Now he’s running away.” yes. Because you probably scared the crap out of him and now that you’re chasing him things are a whole lot worse. And no, we don’t shoot kids who run away from strange acting adults. In fact, we teach kids to run away from strange acting adults who are following them. Perhaps if he said “Hey, I’m the community watch”, but he didn’t. At least we know he started chasing before he identified himself, but it certainly isn’t anywhere on tape.
And I also am afraid that the police MAY be interpreting the law correctly here although it is a ridiculous law.
WaterGirl
@John O: I remember hanging out, running errands with my college roommate, decades ago, and it was a real eye opener!
I was attractive enough, I guess, but she was a hot blond and I discovered that the world is a completely different place when you are a hot blond. The difference, even when just buying kleenex, was mind-boggling, and the same thing happened at place after place while we ran errands.
I’m pretty sure that the same thing is true when it comes to race. I wish it weren’t so.
JoyfulA
@Martin: Thanks, Martin. I feel better about the future with that.
BonnyAnne
@Soonergrunt:
All the best with everything from me, too. I struggled with PTSD after watching a friend almost die in front of me in a terrifically unpleasant way (falling: it sucks), and for two years I thought I was just being overly-sensitive, especially because it wasn’t anything *really* bad like war or sexual assault etc. Then one day someone pointed out to me that no, it was not normal to have a panic attack when looking at trees, telephone poles, buildings over 20 ft tall, etc.
With some focused short-term therapy and delightful prescription meds, it’s ok now. But I may never be good with heights again, and I’m coming to accept that I might always have the occasional falling dream that makes me wake up in a cold sweat. it’s a bummer, but better than it was. Keep up the good work.
Triassic Sands
If only more Americans carried handguns, we’d have so much less crime…
This is one of those horrible — likely racist — tragedies that must end with Zimmerman going to prison. If the local authorities won’t file charges, then the Feds should go after him for violating Sanford’s civil rights, something Zimmerman appears to have done. However, second degree murder sounds like a better charge, unless they can prove he set out to kill someone that day. I fear that if local charges are filed, Zimmerman will be charged with some wishy-washy wrongful death charge. Manslaughter is not adequate.
I don’t know if putting Zimmerman in prison would act as a deterrent and prevent other gun-toting idiots from committing outrages like this, but it would at least get a very dangerous person off the streets.
Yutsano
@Triassic Sands:
Minor point: wrongful death is almost always a civil penalty. And much easier to prove. Your point is valid otherwise.
Rita R.
@TooManyJens:
Of course, because their answer is always and every time “more guns.” Though in the case of Trayvon, they’d say it, but I don’t think they’d mean it.
Marcellus Shale, Public Dick
the trayvon martin case is dumbfounding.
ItAintEazy
@RareSanity:
I dunno, speaking as another black guy with his share of shitty days, I’d call what he had a pretty fucking shitty day, lol.
Ruckus
@Soonergrunt:
For many it gets easier as you learn to replace one habit with a better one. Identifying the subtle signs and triggers allows one to make a decision to not react in the old, ingrained way. It is difficult, especially in that the original reaction helps with survival, in the original situations. Like breaking any habit, but especially one so, well, primal, which is the only word that I think fits, is time consuming but as you are finding out can be done. Keep up going in good direction.
And the post is epic. Perspective can really draw one up by the short hairs can’t it.
WereBear
This case is constantly more upsetting the more information gets released. Being hurt by the deliberate agency of another person is the worst thing in the world.
And yes, there were those who though Carl Hiassen was writing satire. No; he toned down real life.
I grew up in Florida in a time when it was an overlooked backwater. Coming back again after almost 20 years made me realize it had become a whole other country. The streets are deserted, like a Zombie Apocalypse. Instead of walking around slowly, or sitting far back in deep porches with a sweet tea; people just don’t go out.
Paranoia, greater heat, or fleeing whatever drove them to Florida: it’s insane to have a trigger happy Neighborhood Watch type running around, but no more insane that any other Florida dysfunctionality. It’s the South’s pretensions missed with the PLUS: you don’t have a bunch of crazy rich people moving to Alabama and swinging way too much weight in local affairs. That’s the difference.
I cry every time I see his mother on the television.
someofparts
Well, the events you report in this post would have been normal in the Jim Crow South. Killing was only one of the many horrors perpetrated against blacks and nobody ever got convicted for any of it.
On the bright side, in Air Conditioned Nightmare, Henry Miller said that he thought wealthy white Southern culture was so wonderful that slavery was an acceptable price to pay for producing such a world. Good to know Henry.
honus
@BGinCHI: He wasn’t an old white fuckhead. Zimmerman is 28.
AxelFoley
The fact that this bastard Zimmerman was not even arrested or taken in for questioning (I believe)…I have no words.
Thankfully, Michael Baisden is making noise about this on his radio show every day. There had better be justice in this or shit will go down. Please believe.
Ajay
Unbelievable.
Even if it was self defense, Zimmerman needs to be in custody. Thats the least Police should have done. The fact remains that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation and was scared enough to go after him with a gun.
Yevgraf
@Jebediah:
I wouldn’t shed a tear if some member of his family chose to light the Sanford Police Department up at midday and to snipe off the badges as they exit.
They deserve no less.
AxelFoley
I have to say this–after coming in this thread ready to be more pissed off than I already am about this case (as shown by my previous post), I’m heartened by most of the responses here (the exception being that douchbag Steve in DC).
soonergrunt – dude, I commend you, not just for your thoughts on this case, but in dealing with your PTSD.
Martin – I’m sure your kid is gonna do spectacular things. Sounds like he had a great upbringing.
RareSanity – Fuckin’ A, brah!
freelancer – Spot the fuck on!
ruemara – Another spot the fuck on!
Splitting Image
Kind of off-topic, but a guy on my Facebook made a post the other day about Arizona and how someone he knows was so impressed by how polite everyone was. My friend speculated that Arizona’s legendary politeness was due to its concealed-carry laws, and that everyone everywhere would be more polite if they had to worry about everyone they met possibly carrying a weapon.
Does anyone think they can guess my friend’s skin colour in three tries?
Beth
Why do I get the feeling that between “he’s checking me out” and “he’s running away” is the exact moment Zimmerman brandished his gun?
Applejinx
@Yevgraf: All this makes me wish somebody would, and I have to continually work at NOT wishing justice to be imposed by vigilante violence.
If war is diplomacy by other means, then revolution is justice by other means.
I’m apparently older _and_ whiter than this Zimmerman character, but I’ve already chosen sides- and if I had to die in the street in such a situation, it would be trying to protect the skinny black kid. Wish I could’ve had the chance. At this point it’s obvious how things are with that stuff, and I can’t stand it.
Soonergrunt
@BethanyAnne: Oh, dear.
muddy
I also have PTSD, long term therapy has helped me in the ways that you describe, coping processing coping. The thing I have not been able to work on is excessive startling. It happens too fast to get a chance to think about it. If someone walks up to me and I don’t see/hear them coming I’ll gasp very loudly, or scream and whirl about with my fist up. I have come very close to clocking innocent people who just want to look at the same display in the supermarket or something. I feel bad that I scare others by this.
I liken a trigger to an actual trigger on a gun. Once it’s pulled, the bullet is going, I can’t make it stop until the bullet runs out of momentum and falls to the ground.
What I hate is people saying, “Can’t you just…” No, I can’t just, else this would not be a fking disorder.
muddy
If he shot my son it would be convenient for me that he was still running around loose.
Tom Betz
Mary Cutcher, the woman in whose yard Trayvon Martin was murdered, says the police didn’t want to hear what happened.
http://bit.ly/AazTJK
Davis X. Machina
‘@Ajay: A showing to a judge that you were an imminent lethal danger to yourself or those around you used to be good enough to get a court order for an involuntary commitment, not a life-style or an ideology.
Jnc
” There is no circumstance that fits the publicly known facts that I can think of under which this isn’t a crime.”
No need for an investigation or trial I guess.
Maybe you should put a trigger warning on your posts like this to warn readers who are triggered by stupidity.
Lojasmo
@The Dangerman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRE_6aQVP7U&feature=youtube_gdata_player
A debate between my stepdad and another legislator about expanding the castle doctrine in Minnesota. (dad’s the democrat)
The Snarxist Formerly Known As Kryptik
@Suffern ACE:
That’s the problem. It’s obvious that the police are running hardcore interference, but it seems like the law is broad enough that interpretation allows Zimmerman and the cops to pull this kind of BS defense despite evidence to the contrary coming up. All it takes is a statement saying ‘nothing definitive proves it wasn’t self defense’, and voila: getting away with murder.
Lojasmo
@muddy:
Indeed. I think Zimmerman is an imminent threat to everybody in his neighborhood. Dude is better off gone.
Fucking Florida.
Jnc
Did you even listen to the tape?
Caller calls to report someone screaming, not a gunshot.
First time caller even mentions a gunshot is at 43 seconds after a shot is heard.
mch
Jnc@132. I noticed that, too. The facts of this story provide more than enough to be outraged about. Getting the facts wrong will only give ammunition to people who want to defend or find excuses for Zimmerman.
Stranded Northerner
I have a friend who used to work as a tow truck driver in the southern part of Florida. He refused to do any jobs in certain gated communities after dark because of locals taking the law into their own hands like this. He is a big white man, but hey, tattoos on the arms and Jersey accent must mean he is a Mafia associate…
Karen
Anytime someone says that it wasn’t a racial issue let’s flip it. How do you think things would be handled if it was a white kid shot by a black man? Or even if it was a white kid shot by a white man.
And those who say that because the gunman was half Hispanic that meant it can’t be racial…does one ethnicity automatically make you less racist than if you were white? Really?
Chuck Butcher
Sooner,
Sending good thoughts your way. I hope that as bad things keep not happening this will subside, ’til then you’re on a good track.
Suffern ACE
Listening to Zimmermans call again this morning, there does not appear to even have been a threatening confrontation at the time he made the call. I also find it strange that if he was on the community watch, he never mentioned it to the dispatcher. It also appears that dispute being told by the dispatcher to wait, he planned to follow anyway. I’d be curious to find out just how big this community is and how far away from the first call the incident happened.
Susanna K.
You couldn’t pay me to live in a gated community. I feel safer out here in plain old suburbia, where my neighbors don’t have delusions of grandeur.
PanurgeATL
@pseudonymous in nc:
Etymologically, the word for someone ridin’ is CAVALIER.
The word for someone walkin’ is PEON.
No wonder we can’t get people out of their cars–I mean, which one would you rather be, huh? ;-/
Brachiator
@Soonergrunt:
You may not intend it that way, but it sounds a lot like ” thank God for white male privilege.” And it is sad that justice is being equated with being white.
jnc
” thank God for white male privilege.”
Yep. Nevermind the fact that Zimmerman is, in his father’s words, “hispanic.”
But, don’t worry folks, Al Sharpton is on a plane on his way down to Florida to see that justice is served.
rikyrah
this boy was murdered.
I have a teenaged nephew….I fear for him so much, and he’s just a teenaged boy who loves his skatebboard, video games and basketball.
and yet, I fear for him so much
Jebediah
@Jnc:
Which part of he phrase “publicly known facts” is eluding you? An investigation would presumably uncover information that is NOT YET publicly known. And who here is saying there should be no investigation or trial?
Save the straw-man jerk-off for a less important issue.
ETA: I see from your subsequent Al Sharpton crack that you are just an ass. Go be obnoxious somewhere else.
Brachiator
@jnc:
I am not sure why you think this is so important. I suppose that some people think that “Hispanic” means not white, but Latino culture is more complex, and also has an even more twisted racism than mainstream US of A brands. I know many Latinos, who clearly have mixed ethnic heritage, who insist that they are Spanish, and hence all white, and who are more viciously racist towards black people than any Klansman.
MJ
@jnc:
“Maybe you should put a trigger warning on your posts like this to warn readers who are triggered by stupidity.”
“But, don’t worry folks, Al Sharpton is on a plane on his way down to Florida to see that justice is served.”
Welcome to my special “blueberry pie” flavored filter for @ssholes like you who pop up in any threads where a front pager discusses racism just so you can espouse your tired @ssed “the real racists are
black,liberal,anyone who says the word racist” routine.rikyrah
@Brachiator:
See Cubans in Miami for reference.
amcoco
Mad as hell at this situation and trying to figure out how the eff these cops think self-defense would be viable here, even IF one assumed this poor kid responded to (the much older, larger, and armed) Zimmerman with objectively excessive force. You have no SD privilege, even when minor provocation (i.e., Zimmerman instigating the conflict) is met by a grossly excessive response. A person (again, Zimmerman) who is the aggressor in a conflict culminating in death cannot invoke the necessities of self-preservation (except in the case of a good faith, loudly communicated, attempt to withdraw from the conflict – I’m pretty sure he could have done that at some point while Trayvon was screaming for help). This is crim law 101 (literally, I pulled it word for word from my 1L Crim Law outline.
amcoco
Too:
Deadly Force rule: You can use deadly force in self defense if (1) the victim is using deadly force, or (2) to avoid rape kidnapping, or serious bodily harm. Where the character of the crime and its manner of perpetration do not reasonably create a fear of great bodily harm, there is no cause for the exaction of a human life.
Now I know I’m one of those librul lawyers and all, but this was one class I took years ago (albeit I did get the highest grade in the class), and I’m a tax lawyer not a criminal lawyer, and the cops are supposed to know this shit. Of course, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that in good ol’ Fla. the deadly force statute says “the above limitations, however, do not apply when confronted with a victim of color….”
jnc
“Save the straw-man jerk-off for a less important issue.”
“I am not sure why you think this is so important.”
Well soonergunt spent quite a bit of his post talking about white male privilege and it appears he was jumping to the conclusion that Zimmerman was some white guy. From the photographs I have seen of Zimmerman, I am just going to guess that he has suffered too much from white guy privilege in his life.
Look, I don’t have a clue what happened here. But I am sure that everybody with a trusty little axe to grind, has seized on whatever parts of this story fit into their preordained narrative. “No way this isn’t a crime from what we know” says the OP who in the space of 300 words got at least two things wrong about what happened – the date when it happened, and the fact that the 911 caller he linked to had called because she heard shots.
jnc
How about if you are lying on your back on the ground and some guy is hitting you repeatedly in the head while you yell for help?
(Again, I don’t have a clue what happened, but witness accounts so far indicate that there were two guys on the ground, a 911 recording depicts someone yelling for help, and (according to the police) Zimmerman’s head was bloodied and there were grass stains on his back.)
The only thing I am sure of is that a lot of dumbasses just want to use this incident to score points for their “side”, which is just pathetic.
amcoco
@jnc: @jnc:
“The only thing I am sure of is that a lot of dumbasses just want to use this incident to score points for their “side”, which is just pathetic.”
Look, I understand we don’t all know what happened. I also respectfully submit that it doesn’t sound like the police have any good idea what happened either, and have evidenced little interest in determining exactly what occurred. I am sure (assuming my ears work properly) that Zimmerman was specifically told by the 911 operator not to approach the victim. In disregarding that “polite suggestion,” Zimmerman instigated the situation that ensued. The criminal law simply does not permit you to allege self defense in that situation.
amcoco
@jnc:
Also, see above. If Zimmerman was the instigator (which he was, objectively, the moment he left his car), he can’t claim self-defense, even if you assume it was Zimmerman you heard yelling for help.
jnc
Amoco,
“it doesn’t sound like the police have any good idea what happened either, and have evidenced little interest in determining exactly what occurred. ”
Do you know how many people the police have interviewed? How many hours they have spent during the investigation? What they were told by Zimmerman? What they were told by the witnesses? I mean, surely you have some basis for believing they have little interest in determining what occurred, right? I mean, you aren’t just making crap up are you?
“If Zimmerman was the instigator (which he was, objectively, the moment he left his car.”
Your “objective” rule is that if you get out of a car an walk towards someone, you are an “instigator” and can’t claim self-defense, no matter what happens next?
You might want to do some work on your 1L outline.
Some Loser
@jnc:
Go die in a fire you prick.
jnc
Don’t get your fee fees hurt.